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In this episode, Bobbilee, a pivotal figure in the Rails community, shares the inspiring journey behind Rails Camp West. Bobbilee talks about the origins and motivations for creating Rails Camp West, rooted in her experiences at big tech conferences and her desire to create a more intimate, laid-back environment for tech enthusiasts. She highlights the first camp in 2014 and how it has grown into a beloved annual event with a 75% return rate among attendees, showcasing the community’s strong bonds.
Bobbilee delves into the distinctions between Rails Camp West and the original Australian Rails Camp, emphasising the intentional smaller scale of her gatherings to foster deeper connections and more effective networking among participants. Both camps, though different in execution, share a spirit of collaboration and passion for Rails and Ruby.
Rails Camp West
Bobbilee delves into the distinctions between Rails Camp West and the original Australian Rails Camp, emphasising the intentional smaller scale of her gatherings to foster deeper connections and more effective networking among participants. Both camps, though different in execution, share a spirit of collaboration and passion for Rails and Ruby.
Rails Camp West
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Rails Changelog?
Stay in the loop with development news around Ruby on Rails and Ruby. Hosted by Emmanuel Hayford.
Welcome to the show, Bobbilee.
Bobbilee Hartman:Thank you. Thank you. This is so awesome.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. It's, it's really very good to have you on the show because, first of all, I've never had the chance to meet you, and I've tried in the past a couple of times to try to make it to Rails Camp West. And every Yeah. Every year and any time I try something, like, seems to get in the way, and I never get to make it. Last year, I tried.
Emmanuel Hayford:I think 3 or so years ago, I I tried. And about Yeah. I'm not sure. 5 or 6 years, I tried. But I hope, someday, I'll be able to make it eventually.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. Me too.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. But today, we are going to talk, essentially about, Rails Camp West, and, I would like to learn a few things from you, how you organize it, how you came about with the idea. So the first question I would have for you, would be around the history of Rails Camp West. I want you to, tell me a bit of how it started, why rail Rails Camp West, how did the idea emerge, and, basically, what catalyzed its inception?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. So in 2013, I was going to big tech conferences all the time, and I felt that they were in you know, they're always in big cities and these boring kind of large conference centers, and, there were so many logistics that people had to take into account. You know, going to these conferences. They were, you know, they take taxis, hotel, bookings, party invites.
Bobbilee Hartman:They had to, kind of, watch for happy hour invites, dinner reservations with their teams. And it's just, like, so so much going on all the time, and I didn't find it to be that calming of experiences. And, also, I'm pretty outdoorsy, so I also found it hard to do trail running, and do normal, kind of my normal routine going to these conferences that were typically like 3 to 4 days when I would travel. And, and so I kinda just got this idea of so that was kind of in my head a little bit at the time, and then I also was wanting to do all these side projects that I just didn't find the time to do them. And I had a lot of friends in tech as well who just, like, they're like, I wish I could just, like, check out for a few days and just turn off my phone and just focus on these side projects.
Bobbilee Hartman:So all of that kind of going on in my head at the time in 2013. And then I was at a conference talking to some people about this idea of, you know, like, I don't know, just kind of running through ideas of different events that I found, you know, or I don't know. We were just kind of talking about conferences in a way. And then I was realizing while I was also at these conferences where I did find the places where I was learning. So during panel discussions, during workshops, hallway tracks, you know, where people just hang in the hallway and network.
Bobbilee Hartman:And, and so I was seeing engagement in those, and I was finding that to be kind of the secret sauce there for conferences. And so that was kind of like a third piece of this a little bit. And then, anyway, so back to kind of me being at a conference talking to people about my ideas, and someone introduced me to, they just said, hey, someone over there, his name's Philip. He's, a part of something called Rails Camp in Australia. And it sounds a little bit similar to, you know I don't know if you wanna start a conference or what you're thinking, but just talk to him about kinda this different idea of an event where people could work on side projects, a little outdoorsy mixed in, and then not so logistically heavy as big conferences in big cities.
Bobbilee Hartman:So it's kind of how it started. I was introduced to Philip, and then I talked to him a little bit about these ideas that I was running through and what I wasn't seeing in the US at the time. And he was like, how about I just kinda give you some tips and how to start a rail scamp in the US. And, we can help you promote the first one on Twitter. And so that's kind of how it started.
Bobbilee Hartman:I basically, after I met him about a few weeks had gone by, and I thinking more about it. And then I just yeah. I just got kind of a logistics started with Philip. He helped me a little bit with some of the, you know, how much what things to order, and how to promote it, and how to find sponsors, and stuff like that. And then I tweeted basically about a month after that and just said, hey, I'm gonna run a Rails Camp in the US.
Bobbilee Hartman:And from past attendees who had gone to the events in Australia, they promoted it. All the organizers of the Rails Camp Australia organ, they promoted it as well. And, yeah. It's been kind of running ever since. It's been sold out every year.
Bobbilee Hartman:Every summer, I've been running it since 2014 was the 1st summer I ran it. And then, a lot of the same people keep coming back. It's about like 75% return, so it's really awesome to see that. And it has kind of a little cult following in a way. Everyone just has so much fun, and it's that I can't tell more about it, you know.
Bobbilee Hartman:It's basically at summer camps in the US, and I change location every year. So that's why people also keep coming back because it's different. And, there's new people that come with the scholarship program and people just bringing friends, you know, word-of-mouth, essentially. And yeah. So that's kind of the the background of a little bit and why I run it how it started.
Emmanuel Hayford:I used to think they were related. And now that you mentioned it, it's a I think it's a good time to ask how related, how related is Rails Camp Rails Camp West with the one, that's run-in Australia? And is the one that's in Australia still, like, still functional? Mhmm.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So from what I can tell, I haven't looked exactly at every every year if they're running it. I'm pretty sure it's still every single year. And there's diff I've heard also that there's different organizers every year, so that's one difference between Rails Camp West and Australia. They're much larger as well.
Bobbilee Hartman:I cap mine to a smaller group of people, like, 70 people or less. And then there's our, I believe well, last time I looked there, like, 150 or or more. And yeah. I don't know the all the other differences. I know that, some of the same organizers kind of maybe flop out, you know, they still help with it and everything.
Bobbilee Hartman:And it might also be supported by the Ruby organizers of, you know, RubyConf Australia, so might have some backing with that. But, yeah, I don't know all the difference. I haven't been to 1 and I really wanna go, which is just crazy. I haven't gone to 1. But, yeah, it's on my agenda.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. Is the smaller scale of Rails Camp West intentional compared to other rails and Yes. Ruby related events? Tell me about it.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. So I have always loved the group size being this size. 1st, I think the 1st year, I just wasn't I was not sure how many tickets I could sell. I didn't really know what I was doing, you know.
Bobbilee Hartman:So I think I was like 50 tickets. That's what I can manage, and that's what this venue can fit, and that's just what I'm gonna do. And so after that, I've kind of kept it at that. Sometimes, you know, 70 people come if the venue can hold it, but I typically kept tickets at 50, and then there's a waiting list and I'll let people in our scholarships, you know, let people in like that. But I intend I intentionally do it because it keeps the community kind of tight knit.
Bobbilee Hartman:There's less intimidation. You know, people aren't maybe as, introverts, you know, and extroverts at camp, and there's a mix of all kinds of different people. And so I think that they just make closer friendships because they meet everybody for the most part at the event while keeping it slow like that. The networking is is more approachable. It's more welcoming.
Bobbilee Hartman:People try different things every night in different, you know, they do karaoke one night, they do games another night. So it's kind of, there's not really clicks that are forming. You know, sometimes there is a little bit, you know, people that like the alumni keep coming back. There's definitely, like, a little bit of that. But in general, everyone's so welcoming to the new people that it's yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:I kind of always ask it in a survey, you know. Or do you feel like this is not welcoming? And everyone's like, no. Like, for the new people, and they, yeah. They feel that it's and I think by the size, keeping it small like that, people love to come back and see their friends that they met the year before or the people they see every year.
Bobbilee Hartman:So so, yeah, it's kind of I I keep it that way to be welcoming, approachable, and yet you basically could meet everybody by the end of the event. Yeah. That's kind of the intention behind it.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. That that that sort of, like, makes a lot of sense, in my head because now if I'm going to an event, and I know for sure that I will, know at least 50% of the people and have a chance to know the rest of the 50, that's, that becomes very enticing knowing what to expect. And then also Yep. Being able to sort of, like, know there'll be something new always. I think it's a it's a fun way to organize organize this.
Emmanuel Hayford:Now, years ago Yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. You want Another thing another quick thing I was gonna add to that is that, there's a big piece of camp that is people who are there to network to look for jobs or they are hiring. So keeping it in a small group like that, it and we all meet around a campfire and talk, have a big conversation about hiring, what are people thinking, do they like the company they're working at. So when it's small like that, it's really important to keep that authentic, You know, no one don't share this outside of the room. And yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:So that's kind of a big part of it too that I that I like to keep it small for that.
Emmanuel Hayford:By by small, what do you mean? What's the what what's the numbers small for you?
Bobbilee Hartman:For the for the group, I mean, for to keep BrailleScan below 70 people. Okay.
Emmanuel Hayford:So Yeah. If it's below 70. Okay. So you've had events where you had, like, 70 people?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. 75 is the most I've ever had at a rails camp. So, that's, yeah, that's probably the most I would do in it. Yeah. Yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:Mhmm.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. Cool. Years ago, I was drawn to Rails Camp with a alley of collaborative hacking sessions on mini project. Does this ethos of collective tinkering still define the events today?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So it depends on the year. Sometimes people are way more, you know, they're staying inside, working on little side projects, going outside a little bit less. And then there's some years that some people are outside most of the day and playing and swimming and kayaking, and they are taking a break from their computer completely. Like, some people don't even bring their computer.
Bobbilee Hartman:I've had code retreats at camp before, so that's kind of when we'll do a little more hacking, working on things. And then some people, they always are there just working on working on projects. So it's doesn't matter around the year or who's doing what. They're kind of there to do that. So it's really a casual agenda that's optional every day.
Bobbilee Hartman:So you really can make it your own event. There's no WiFi at any of the camps. So keeping that into account. People would download things on their computer, have source code for different projects they might need. Yes.
Bobbilee Hartman:We have all you know, we make sure people are aware of that before they come if they're gonna work on a side project. And then there's a lot of mentoring going on. People are pretty open on Slack before they can say, hey. I'm wanting to work on a certain thing. Anyone wanna pair on that with me?
Bobbilee Hartman:Or I'm trying to learn this thing. Does someone want to is anyone an expert in the group that could teach me something at camp? So that's kind of a cool thing we've done. And then the on conference schedule, we kind of open up for people to add different things they might wanna teach or learn. And then, the third thing, a lot of people practice conference talks.
Bobbilee Hartman:So, maybe they have a big conference at, you know, big big talk or heads I talk at RubyConf and they wanna practice it at Rails Camp. That's a thing that's really cool too that people do. Those are kinda the main projects they things that kinda go on at camp. It's pretty flexible. But you're you know, people do it or they they choose their own thing they wanna do every day.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. And, you mentioned a scholarship program that that you have and you've had, I think, since the start of Rails Camp West. What does it what does it look like? First of all, what's what's the scholarship program and what does it look like? How do you organize it and who benefits from it?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So, I have a scholarship form on the website, so people can just click that, and then they can sign up for it and apply for it. And I'll kind of go through the applications. I mainly ask people, you know, are they, are they what do they need help with? Some people don't need everything covered.
Bobbilee Hartman:They just need maybe their ticket covered and not travel or everything, you know, or maybe just part of the ticket. So I kind of let people tell me what they need covered and what they need help with. And then the question is, you know, why do you wanna come to camp? Those are kind of the questions I just really wanna understand if they're there for the right reasons, or they understand what it is, and they're excited about it, and why they're excited about it, or who they wanna connect with. You know, maybe this is the group of people that they are trying to grow their Ruby Your Rails community or they're trying to, learn something from someone specific or something.
Bobbilee Hartman:So I kind of like to hear what they're interested in and what they wanna do. And, after that, I kinda just sort through and depending on the budget. So I get sponsors to cover a lot of people that come. So that's kinda how the program works. It has to be sponsored by by outside sources.
Bobbilee Hartman:And so that's kind of how the program won't run without scholarship sponsorships. So I've had some awesome people that have attended in the past. A lot of past attendees support this program. Companies support this program. And, yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:Just random individuals that have never come to camp support it. So so, yeah. It's kind of a cool thing. And then, I think that's the main what it looks like, basically. I can range in finances depending on the amount of sponsorships I have, the amount of support I could give someone.
Bobbilee Hartman:So some years I've only been able to cover tickets because the list of applicants is so long. So, yeah, that's kind of dependent on the amount of people applying and the and the sources available.
Emmanuel Hayford:Right. Yeah. Makes sense. And now Yeah. From from what I've I've noticed, each year's agenda looks different.
Emmanuel Hayford:Like, what for this year, what's what's going to be your focus? And by that, I mean, what activities will will Compass engage in, what attractions can they participate in, and stuff like that.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. So this year is probably the most packed activities offered at a summer camp. It's one of the best summer camps in Idaho, so that's why I chose it. Because, you know, since it's 3 days, you know, you want people to not get bored and we don't leave campus at all.
Bobbilee Hartman:Everyone stays at the venue pretty much the whole time. So this year, there is, let's see. Well, it's on a lake, so you can go and it's a no wake lake, which means there's no motorized boats, so we can kind of go paddle boarding, kayaking, swimming, kind of all around that area. There's hiking and trail running nearby. And there is mountain biking.
Bobbilee Hartman:So there's mountain biking trails at the venue, and they have bikes to give people. And there's a zip line, which is really cool. Like, it's like 600 feet zip line across this valley. So I've never had a zip line. So I think that'll be, like, really exciting and fun.
Bobbilee Hartman:And then, and then there's disc golf. Do you know what that is? So people can play in the woods and play golf with frisbees, essentially. Like, you throw these frisbees into these black nets. So that's kinda cool.
Bobbilee Hartman:I think it's like a 9 hole frisbee golf course. And then there's probably I think there's archery and some other, like, basketball courts and stuff like that just for pickup games. And then they're I'm really trying to get planned and sponsored as a half day white water rafting trip. We did that, I think, 2015. I can't remember what year we did Idaho before.
Bobbilee Hartman:Rails Camps went to Idaho one other time. And there was a white water rafting trip, and it was super fun. So I'm trying to get that planned. If I can't get it sponsored, I'll just have it as, like, an add on price. And if enough people can sign up, they give us, like, a $120 or something as an add on.
Bobbilee Hartman:So so, yeah, that's kind of on the agenda as well, potentially. So and then rock climbing as well. There's some rock climbing on the venue. So a lot of activities to do, and then there's always karaoke. Karaoke at night we do, and then, like, puzzles and games, and, some of that stuff to just, like, wind down.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. It looks like a lot of hard work
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah.
Emmanuel Hayford:To have these things organized. And speaking of hard work, how much how much work is, involved in finding, like, a different location and activities for, for each year. How's it like for you working on this?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So that's kind of the bulk of my time is finding the venue. I've saved places over the years, so I've I have a lot of ideas to pull from every year. You know, when I can think of the state that I wanna do it in, I'll just kinda go back to my list of previous research. But, that can change, you know.
Bobbilee Hartman:If somebody's places, they no longer rent to adults or their dates are booked up already or, you know, the prices have changed for rest camps, I mean, for summer camps a lot. They they changed like $15,000, you know, in the last 4 years. So it's it's a lot of work finding things that are within budget, that have enough activities to keep people busy. I really like to be on bodies of water for people to do stuff. So those camps are typically more expensive.
Bobbilee Hartman:And then, and then I usually always rent out the camp entirely, so so there's no other groups that are on campus. So, so that's kind of a part of the logistics as well. And then camps that also rent to, like I said, to adults. Some only are, you know, kids only, or they have to be for learning purposes. So I'll make sure to add in workshops if they don't allow there to be no learning.
Bobbilee Hartman:And then, of course, you know, the biggest thing is that the venues are unplugged, and that's been harder and harder to find without cell reception. So now it's kind of the focus is just making sure they can turn off WiFi, and that their that their cell reception is spotty, at least. You know, because that's a really big part of the experience. And then another thing is there's no neighboring properties to the venue. I really like to find places that you really feel like you're kind of it's just our group.
Bobbilee Hartman:It's really good for bonding and community building and just, like like I said, keeping events small so you meet everybody. When there's other properties or a bunch of people on a lake, for example, it just wouldn't feel as private of an experience. So there's a lot of things I think about there too. And then, I also don't want the venue to be super, super big. I kind of like it to be, like, a good fit for the amount of people that I'm bringing.
Bobbilee Hartman:There's some summer camps out there that are just, like, mega and huge and, you know, 50 different cabins that can fit 30 people. I mean, there's some huge summer camps. So, you know, it's kind of a mix of a lot of stuff like that that I kind of take into account. And then I think the biggest another big thing too is making sure that I tour the grounds, and make sure that the venue has a place for people who wanna stay up late. A building that's quiet to keep the karaoke noise at bay, and then a building that people can play games or puzzles and board games at night.
Bobbilee Hartman:They're not wanting to stay up late. And then making sure the sleeping area is separate of those buildings. So, yeah, there's kind of a lot of little things that I put into my research that take it that that takes up so much of my time to find the right place. And, yeah, those are kind of all the things I think about.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. Just just a moment ago. I was thinking, like, the constraints for a venue seem to me like, there's there's there's there's quite a bit of constraints. And with all of these constraints, finding a venue that would fit definitely would mean that it's that it's going to be a lot of work. Because, like, I I'm not sure how many venues, are in the states for such camps.
Emmanuel Hayford:But if there are all of these constraints, then, well, it's going to be a lot of hard work. So I'm not really surprised. Yeah.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that I find a new place every year also is something that, you know, it's kinda it takes up time too. You know?
Bobbilee Hartman:Because I'm relearning new, you know, new own owners of a venue, talking to new people, every year. So it's it's not like a wash and repeat experience at all. So, yeah, it's always different every year. And, but it's fun. It kinda keeps it exciting for me to keep running it, I think.
Bobbilee Hartman:You know? I don't get bored of running it. So Right. So, yeah, I guess it's a
Emmanuel Hayford:And, I I I'm not sure why I saw this, but I think I've seen you describe your karaoke, events as a judgment free zone. How do you ensure that the karaoke nights at Rails Camp are truly, judgment free?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So to be honest, I I answered this in a way that's, it's kinda just is that way. I don't know how else. It's not that I created it to be that in a way. I think it's just the people that come back every year.
Bobbilee Hartman:They just let loose, and they just pour their heart out, and it's just kind of become that from the start. And they are the people that organize it and bring some of the songs and prepare. And I just kinda make sure that there is speakers and microphones and all of that, or logistics are set up. But beyond that, it's kinda the attendees that create this, like, status that have been creating this experience every year. And, I think people that just continue to get up there and sing without fear, it encourages others.
Bobbilee Hartman:And people that are not, you know, the best singer in the world, or they choose random songs you've never heard of. It's just kind of this experience at camp that just keeps going, and it's been so fun and funny. And, and and it just seems to I don't know. It's just kind of there's always different people getting up and doing different things. And so it has kind of a culture of its own in a way that it's not it's not people just just keep making it judgment free.
Bobbilee Hartman:I don't know how to explain it other than that. But it's always been like that. You know? It's just kind of this fun thing that happens every year.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. I know a lot of Yeah. Folks in the Ruby community, and, I'm not surprised with by by first because, like, the people I know in the community are really chilled, laid back. Usually, they don't judge, and they sort of, like, accept everyone. So this is, like, a natural setting for Rubyists to get together and do stuff together.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. You know? It's a it's a good thing.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. When I was at some of those big conferences, you know, those other Ruby conferences, karaoke was always kind of one of those happy hours people would that would organize.
Emmanuel Hayford:Right.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. And so, yeah, and I felt that at those too. So I think some of those people just brought it to camp with the same energy behind it.
Emmanuel Hayford:Right. Okay. Now I understand that rails can be usually Wi Fi free. But if you go harder to go to, places without cell phones, how would you handle emergency situations, like, cases where you have to call an ambulance or, I don't know, god forbid, the police or something. Yeah.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. How would you handle such such situations?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So all the venues that I go to, they have Wi Fi. I just tell them to turn it off. So that's for emergency cases. If some if someone needs someone absolutely needs it.
Bobbilee Hartman:Then the and then if that's not the case, that there's always landlines for phone, you know, for emergencies at camps, because they have kids that come to these camps, so there's definitely adults that are needing emergency numbers for their kids. Yeah. So there's always a landline, and I give that all to the attendees before they come. I'll just tell them, here's the emergency phone. Because because a lot of people who come to camp also have children now and that's kind of been a concern that they're not able to get a hold of from their partner or something.
Bobbilee Hartman:So so, yeah. I have always emergency cases for that. And the camps always have medical kind of procedures that they worst case scenario, something happens, they've got a procedure for that. So
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. Yeah. Now everything makes sense.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah.
Emmanuel Hayford:I I spent, like, a few minutes thinking, wait. So, like, the the place has no Wi Fi. It has no cell cell phone reception. What happens if this happens? I kept thinking, how are you?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's a good question.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. Okay. Okay. Makes sense. Okay.
Emmanuel Hayford:Now we've talked about, your scholarship programs. I think you don't do Yeah. This sponsoring of folks who want to take part in the program yourself. It would be financially impossible for you too. So Yeah.
Emmanuel Hayford:In that case, then it means there should be, some kind of sponsorship that you accept, to be able to pull this off. How can people sponsor Real Estate Camp West? And what are the forms of, sponsorships that you accept?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So whenever someone's interested, there's a sponsorship form on the website if they just click sponsor. But I promoted also, like, on LinkedIn or Twitter, and have links to just DM me on either of those duet channels. And so I have a prospectus that I send to anyone that's interested, and they're all financial sponsorship support. So and they all different all the packages now include all the different things.
Bobbilee Hartman:So diversity and inclusion scholarships, t shirts and designer fee for that, transportation, so buses to and from camp. So I pick everybody up. And every ticket that includes that's included, every ticket that someone buys, what's included is transportation to from camp from the airport. So a large bus, it will pick people up. So I include that in tickets.
Bobbilee Hartman:So and then the white water rafting half day trip, if we wanted to plan that, and then snacks and beverages, and just the travel that it takes me to get there. Some of that's all kind of included in the in that in a scholarship support sponsorship support. And the ranges ticket ranges for that. I mean, the packages range from 800 to 75100. 75100 would be the presenting sponsor.
Bobbilee Hartman:So and they all can be for they all have different benefits, and that's listed in the prospectus that I would send someone.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. And, Yeah. If I'm a listener listening to what you're telling me right now, and I want to get more information about Rails Camp West. Where do I get this kind of information? Where do I get, information about the the event?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yep. The website to find out more information about signing up for camp or sponsorships is west, west Mhmm. Dotrailscamp.us.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. Got it. And, you're on Twitter as far as I remember. What's your Twitter handle?
Bobbilee Hartman:Yep. Yep. Railscamp_usa.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay. Gotcha. And now it's, it's it's a tradition that anyone who comes to Real Estate Log, recommends a book they've read or are reading right now.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah.
Emmanuel Hayford:What book would you recommend to a Rails and Ruby dev developer? Something that you've read or reading right now.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. So I've always loved the Sandy Metz's books, And the it's like p o o d r is the main one that I that I recommend. I can't remember that's the the full title of it. But but, yeah. That book was awesome and I read it, and then I went to meet her.
Bobbilee Hartman:She ran workshops to kinda teach people more about her book, and everything that was within it. So I went to North Carolina to meet her to do a workshop, and that was so so memorable. So I highly recommend anything that Sandy Nett says, going to her talks, reading her book. So
Emmanuel Hayford:yeah. Okay.
Bobbilee Hartman:And she might still do those workshops. I'm not I'm not sure, but that was really, really awesome too.
Emmanuel Hayford:Right. It's it's good you brought sentiments up because I think I haven't heard from her, even on her Twitter account, for quite some time now, and I'm not sure Yeah. If she's still around in the community. I'll have to find out. Probably, I'll have to reach out to her to get on the rails change.
Emmanuel Hayford:Okay.
Bobbilee Hartman:Yeah. That would be awesome.
Emmanuel Hayford:Yeah. Okay. Anyway, thank you very much, Bob Lee. It was fun having you on the show.