Software Social

Colleen shifts into sales mode for Refine.

Show Notes

Check out The Art of Product Podcast and Default Alive.

And of course, Colleen's favorite twitter thread by Nathan Barry. Also mentioned, Y Combinator CEO and Partner Michael Seibel on what makes the top 10% of founders different.

Huge thanks to all of our listeners who’ve become Software Socialites and support our show! You can become a supporter for $10 a month or $100 a year at softwaresocial.dev/supporters.

What is Software Social?

Two indie SaaS founders—one just getting off the ground, and one with an established profitable business—invite you to join their weekly chats.

Michele: Hey, Colleen.

Colleen: Hey, Michelle.

Michele: How's it going?

Colleen: I'm good.

How are you?

Michele: I'm good.

I was, uh, listening to a hammer
stone pod yesterday, or the day

before you, guys had a new one out.

And, it sounds like you are really
just pounding the pavement on sales

now and shifting away from technical.

Colleen: Yeah, it is a huge shift.

It is a scary shift, but
also it's really exciting.

Michele: Yeah.

Colleen: More fun than
I thought it would be.

Michele: Ooh.

Colleen: And so that's interesting.

Like every time you send a cold
DM or a cold email, you get

a little like dopamine hit.

Michele: Do you, but like what,
so what if they were, they

don't reply to you like that?

Doesn't.

Colleen: Yeah.

No, most people don't
reply, but I don't know.

It doesn't seem to be, I
mean, this is the game, right?

Like it, and it's a game that I haven't
played before, but it's kind of fun.

I think it's a huge, I mean, it's
obviously a new skillset for me,

but I'm excited to try something
new and to learn something new.

Michele: I'm really excited to see you
just like jumping into it head first.

I feel like, you know, when we met and we
started first started doing the podcast,

before you did anything differently, you
used to read a ton of books and articles

on things, which is a good approach to do.

And I, you know, we should of
course learn from other people,

but I think sometimes you use that
as kind of procrastinating doing

something new and now you're just in.

And I haven't heard that same, like,
well, I just need to read these more

articles on this and I have one, I'll do
it when I finished this book, I'm reading,

like you have jumped into cold sales,
like it's cold water without any fear.

Colleen: It's funny.

Okay.

So I did do one thing,
that's a little funny.

I don't remember if I said this on
Hammerstone podcasts, but I did, you

know, you can go on YouTube and look
up sales, and watch people sell stuff.

It's fascinating.

It's so I did do that to get pumped up.

Cause these guys get on.

I was watching this one guy and
like these guys get on sales

calls, and the person can be like,
yeah, this product's not for me.

And they're still.

Like they don't let it go.

Right.

They're like, oh, well, you know, dive
in as you might say, like, why not?

Well, maybe you can just buy it
now and it'll be for you later.

It's fascinating to

Michele: Do you want
to be like that though?

Colleen: I don't.

But I think that the difference is it's
all about like, I think where I struggled,

doing these customer interviews and
doing the cold sales, which are, I know

they're two different things, but when
I say cold sales, I really mean I want

to talk to people about their problems.

So I really think of them as like customer
interviews is as soon as someone's

like, yeah, it's just not a good fit.

I'm like, oh, okay, cool.

I'm out.

Right.

Which is obviously not the right response.

The right response is to figure
out why, why is it not a good fit?

What's their job to be done.

And so.

I don't want to be sleazy or slimy.

That's not what I'm trying to do,
but I also tend to just like my

customer interviews before I met
you, or before I started working

with you were like 30 seconds long.

I think I told you my early customer
interviews for simple file upload were

literally five minutes long because I
did not know what else to say or do.

Michele: Yeah, I feel you were
like, if they said something and you

understood it, you'd be like okay.

Colleen: sweet.

Yeah.

Michele: Yeah.

I mean, I think there's definitely a line
there between yeah, between like being

pushy and then, uh, and then also trying
to understand, okay, well, is it because

they don't experience this very often.

Are they not the person who
experiences this problem?

Is this problem already
solved in a satisfactory way?

Like, cause I think there's a difference
between like we already use something for

this, and we're happy with it versus we
don't use anything for this and we don't

see any reason to and because we do it so
infrequently that it's just not a problem.

Colleen: Yeah.

So I, what else did I do?

I did something else.

I can't remember now.

Michele: You're doing your
founding customers thing.

Right.

Which I think is a brilliant idea.

You have this group of five founding
customers that are, they, like, I

guess they get a special discount,
but also more like high touch

service onboarding from you is that.

Colleen: Yeah.

So my customer advisory board, I
think I have two slots left if you are

interested in trying the refined product.

Um, yeah, so my customer advisory
board has been so cool because

these people have already paid.

They're excited.

They're the ideal first customers.

And so far, they're all rails developers
and they've been like, Hey, like I am

open to helping you, around these rough
edges as we integrated it in our app.

So there, you know, I just think it's
going to be so fun working with these

guys because we're going to work
together like super high touch, right?

I want to be there for the whole process.

Show them exactly how to do it and
kind of see how that feels to them.

So yeah, I'm pumped about that.

Michele: Did you get your, your real
estate customers in that you mentioned

them like your one freelancing client
that you had, that it sounded like

they actually had a need for it.

Were you able to get them
into the founding customer?

Colleen: Um, yeah, I mean, I haven't yet,
but I will because they're my clients.

So they need

Michele: So there's one slot left

Colleen: Yeah, I guess you're right.

I

Michele: So if you want, or you maybe
want at some point in the future, you

think you might want refined for rails.

You should talk to Colleen now.

Colleen: Yes, we will help you filter your
data for your users and for your team.

It's wonderful.

It's so cool to Michelle.

I think one of the things as I get more
and more into this, I'm just having so

much fun with it now, which is cool.

Like the sales, and the
product is just so good.

I mean, it's like, you know, the
rails, um, the rails architecture

is designed almost exactly based
off of what Aaron did for Laravel.

And like he thought of everything,
like all of these weird edge

cases that we've taken care of.

So it's so beautiful
when you start to use it.

And someone's like, well, what about NOLs?

And I'm like, oh, we
totally handled those.

Just like these little edge cases that
trip people up, that annoy people.

I dunno, it just makes me happy to like
work on software, I feel really good

about and can see our client using.

I mean, our client uses this
everywhere in their app.

It is so cool.

And like, it's just, it's just cool.

I don't know.

I was just happy about it, I guess.

Michele: It's such a delight to work on
a product that you're really proud of.

But also with this one, you have
ownership of the product, right?

And so when someone says,
Hey, this is really cool.

First of all, you're like, wow,
they think something I made is cool.

That's kind of cool.

That's like motivating.

But then, can you do this?

And you can be like, oh, you know what,
no, we're actually thinking of adding

that, and you can be like, hey like, can
you tell me, why you would need that?

And then you can talk to them
about it and be like, yeah, maybe

we can add that in the future.

Knowing.

Yeah, maybe we can actually
add that in the future.

And you're not just saying maybe if
the product manager approves it and

then we get executive approval and
then the roadmap is already locked

in for at least 18 months right now.

Like, oh, I'm going to tell them that
we can do it, but we probably can't,

that's kind of a crappy feeling, but
getting to not only get that super

positive feedback yourself and really
feel like you're selling something that

you're proud of, but also having the.

You know, influence and control
over the future of the product.

And you know, I think it allows you
to just really connect with your

customers on what they're trying to do
in a way that is a lot harder when you

don't have that say over the roadmap.

Colleen: Yeah.

So it's, you know, as I said, I think
I said to Aaron, like, it's exciting.

I mean, I'm pulling back on the
technical stuff, which is scary

Michele: Yeah.

Colleen: well, and also like,
that's how I make my money.

So, I mean, it's going to be
like less personal income.

Um, so

Michele: Oh, so is this like, this is
reducing your, because you have it cause

you've been working for the clients that
was funding you guys to build it and now.

But, so what does that actually,
what was it a one-year contract

or was it like a certain number
of hours that works out to a year?

So like,

Colleen: So the contract was
really whatever we needed.

I mean, it was, it was
incredibly flexible.

We had agreed because I quit my
other job for this opportunity.

I had wanted a minimum commitment
of a year, which they gave

me, but there's no end date.

So, you

Michele: Okay, So you
don't actually fall off a

Colleen: I don't fall off a cliff, but
what we're doing, what we talked about.

Is there hiring someone to
be me within their company.

Does that make sense?

So they're like, want me to train him up?

He's going to start in a couple of weeks.

And so as I trained him up, so now
I have a contractor, like hammer

stone refine has a contractor that's
working upstream on technical stuff.

And then the client is actually hiring
someone, they want me to train up,

to take some of the app load, like
of the load of putting it everywhere

in their app and understanding
it and explaining it to everyone.

Like take some of the app load off of me.

And this is exactly what I
want to happen, Michelle.

This is the ideal path for me, but
it's also scary because when I was

the person who was like touching
every part of the app as like some

serious job security, like that's some
serious consulting revenue security.

And as I give these pieces away, that is
going to significantly impact my personal

income, um, which is something we have
planned for and which was always the plan.

But you know, you get there
and you're like, okay,

Michele: Let's go to.

Colleen: This is it.

This is the time.

So it's exciting and scary and fun.

And you know, if I don't bet on
myself, like, what am I doing here?

Right.

This is what I want.

But it is a little.

Michele: I think it's really interesting
to see also how excited you are about

doing sales for this versus how marketing
for simple file upload kinda always

seemed like a little bit of a drag to you.

Like it was always a bit of
like, I don't know what to do.

Let's do this content, you just
have this excitement about selling

this that I feel like I didn't ever
fully see with simple file upload.

And I don't know if that's
difference between the products or

that's the difference between for
you like sales versus marketing.

Like some people genuinely enjoy one
over the other, even though they are

often thought of as the same category.

They're really not.

Uh, I'm curious how you think about.

Like if you've thought about your own
energy levels for the two products.

Colleen: Yeah.

So I think so, I feel like I'm finally
getting to my unfair advantage and

what I mean by that is like, I am a
developer, a good developer who loves

people and I'm good with people.

And so I think the sales stuff feels
different than the marketing stuff,

because the sales stuff is right now.

It's just all one-on-one
and I freaking love.

I love talking and maybe sales isn't
the right word, maybe like it's more of

a customer interview where, you know.

Michele: Yeah.

I mean, it feels like you're
kind of doing like a combination.

It's sort of like sales, exploration
interviews, rather like, it's not quite

a full customer interview, but it's also
not like, as you said, you know, pitching.

Colleen: Yeah.

And so.

I think it, whereas like marketing, like
writing blog posts, man, that's a drag.

It's not content pieces are not my
favorite, but I just really like taught

it, and I think the thing I like talking
to people about so much with hammer stone

is the people who have this problem.

Big problem.

It is incredibly painful for
them is what I'm finding.

Just a tremendous annoyance.

So I don't know.

It just feels cool to be like,
we can solve that for you.

We can make your life better.

Like this should be a no brainer.

I'm enjoying that process.

Michele: I'm really glad
to see you enjoying it.

I think that really is the big
difference between sales and marketing.

And if you enjoy talking to people,
which, I mean, I guess we run a

podcast, so we shouldn't be entirely
surprised that you enjoy talking to me.

Um, then run with that.

I mean, and you know, to be a developer
who genuinely likes people, and talking

to them as much, You do writing code
and being able to speak to that in a

very technical way, is really unusual.

The other nexus, I see this a lot in is
people who do developer relations, and

so to be, you know, to be a salesperson
who can really speak to the technical

aspects of things and understand, why
you would use something is so valuable.

I'm actually, you know, I'm reminded.

So yesterday we were looking at,
appliances, uh, very exciting.

And, you know, we went to two different
showrooms yesterday and one was for a

company that makes supposedly incredibly
nice, you know, very high-end appliances.

And we want to just see like,
okay, what's the best thing

out there just for comparison.

And then we went to another one
that was more, very good quality,

more like mid range and not.

Like nobody, like would be impressed
when they walked into your house

if they saw it, versus this
other one was very impressive.

And I noticed immediately, you know,
the first one, the salesperson

talked about how, you know, all
these, a Michelin star chef uses them.

And like, you know, it was
very exclusive and everything.

And then.

The other one, even though it wasn't as
nice, they're saying, well, you know,

when you're making your potatoes and you
need to do this and you're working with

it, like in your kitchen, just like this.

And like, or you're trying to make
this other dish and, like, you want

them to be a specific brownness.

And like, the level of in this case
cooking, but like the technical

understanding of here's when you're using
this, here's what you're trying to do.

Like the rest of that activity that
you have going on here's why this

product helps you and speaks to the
things that people are trying to do.

It helps you sell it in a way where
you don't have to be like, you should

buy it now because it's going on sale.

And then it's going to go, the price
is going to go up and like, even if

you don't need it, you should buy it.

Now.

You can be like, well, if you're
trying to do this, you might

struggle with doing X, Y, and Z.

And here's how this
product helps you do that.

And it's more like just factually
explaining what the product does

and you don't have to put on the.

Colleen: Right.

Michele: And it's a more
pleasant experience.

I think for everybody.

Colleen: Right.

That, and that's where I am right now.

I'm not trying to hard sell anyone.

I'm like, we, you know,
we speak to your problem.

This is what it does, and this
is why it's gonna make your life.

Michele: And I think that's what you
learn, you know, if you got to a point

where you can do like straight customer
interviews or even as you do more of

these sort of S we'll call them sales,
exploration interviews, like the more you

can speak to those specific situations in
a company where somebody would have this

problem, the more, when you talk to more
people, there'll be like, oh, they really

get it without, you know, without having
to do too much more explaining, right?

You don't have to be like,
so have you, have you ever

struggled with this and this?

You can be like, no.

So when you are trying to do
this, we help you do that faster.

Colleen: Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's been, you know, it's a paradigm
shift in terms of what I'm doing.

Um, and I think what's different
about it too is simple file

upload, simple file upload, it
was like kind of a small product.

Like people just want to use it and
it's fine, but this is a higher priced

product, like a higher touch product.

So these conversations feel much more, um,
what's the right word, like, uh, interest.

I don't wanna say interesting,
but they feel much more, they have

much more depth to them, right.

Because the problem is multifaceted.

Everyone experienced this problem
in a slightly different way.

And people generally have
identified the problem.

And so I feel like I'm getting
more out of these talks than I was

when I was trying to do talks for
people with simple file upload.

Yeah.

So there's that.

Michele: So we talked about how you
didn't read a bunch of books and blog

posts before starting to do this, but
I'm betting that you read some too, like

you have this, this founding customers
concept, you're cold dM-ing people.

I'm curious, where have you been getting
these ideas from, what are you looking

to to like help you learn how to sell?

Colleen: Gosh, you're
going to love this so much.

So yeah, so, you know, uh, Ben
and Derrick's podcast, the art of.

Michele: Yes.

Colleen: On episode 205, but if
you go back to episode 38, that's

when Derek has starting levels
and Ben is starting Tuple pull.

Michele: Oh.

Colleen: So I am, lee it's like
three years ago, it's like 2017 or

something, or maybe more than that.

I don't remember.

So basically I've realized that.

So I'm listening to the artist
product podcast from episode 40 and

it's right when Tuple is starting.

And I got this founding customers concept,
because Ben was talking about doing that

in the very, before Tuple was a thing
like before it was a thing, he was taking

like a small group of founding customers.

And I was like, dude, I should do that.

Michele: And that's interest.

Colleen: yeah.

So between that, and then, just trying
to be like talking to when Corey was

on Cory Haines was on software social.

He was on a while ago, but we
were joking about how, he, and I

first met cause he called DMD me
and how he does that all the time.

And he was like, you just
got to shoot your shot.

And I was like, yeah,
why am I not doing that?

Like that seems silly.

And then at rails conf I met, a new friend
and his name is Joe and he has rails devs.

And he was talking about his
sales strategy, which was to

personalize, like cold outreach.

And I was like, that makes total
sense, like personalized cold outreach.

Perfect sense.

So that's kind of what I'm trying to
do right now, as I contact more people.

Like you clearly need this thing.

I mean, you say it nicer than that.

We have the thing we can
make your lives better.

Michele: That's really interesting.

So instead of reading about
those, basically you are

We know you're listening to other people
that, you know, talk about doing this, or

you are talking to them directly about it.

And I wonder if that makes it feel more,
doable because there's that sort of

social proof element of like, if I know
somebody who has done this and has done it

successfully, then maybe I can do it too.

Like, does

that make

Colleen: Yeah.

It's and it's not so nebulous, right.

When you read about like, you know,
Paul Graham's blog or whoever,

someone, you know, in a totally
different stage of life, it's

hard to relate that to yourself.

You know what I mean?

Michele: Yeah, it doesn't feel quite as
actionable because they have a different

set of incentives and resources at play
that you maybe don't have, but listening

to art, a product, or, you know, Cory
Haynes on and Chris on default alive,

like, that could, you know, they're
in somewhat similar situations and,

Colleen: Yeah.

And I have to say like Nathan's, Barry's
tweet is my most favorited tweet.

The one, um, I know I bring this up all
the time, so stop me if I told you, but

the one where he talks about how convert
kit got stuck at 1500 MRR for like a year.

And then he started doing direct
sales and we all know where it is now.

So, um, it's like this great
tweet thread about how like,

he was just totally stagnant.

And then he started changing the game by
like, he would like literally fly places

to meet with people, but how that just
fundamentally shifted his whole business.

Michele: We'll have to link to that.

Um, I think you, I think
you have mentioned that.

Colleen: sure I have,
because I read it every day.

Okay.

Michele: And, and like, I mean,
who better to look to then someone

who literally runs a company called
convert kit about how other people

can convert people to things, right.

Like, Yeah, probably knows a little
bit about what he's talking about.

Uh, so episode 38 onwards
of art, of broadcast, art of

pop out of product podcasts.

Just stop listening to us.

Just go listen to that.

Colleen: oh, it's really funny
because it's like, they're talking

about like their Twitter strategy.

And again, I think,
three or four years old.

And I was like, oh, Derek's
talking about his Twitter strategy.

And I like was scrolling through
his tweets to try and find it.

And I'm like, oh no, I'm
never going to find it.

Cause it was like four years ago.

Like I've no idea what he's talking about.

But yeah, you know, I think things
feel really good, Michelle, I think.

And also, my sister is, getting
into some simple file upload

stuff, which is really cool.

And so it feels, it feels like a.

A lot of excitement and promise and fun,
you know, it's like I was reading this

blog post or article, or I don't know the
other day about, the arrival fallacy.

And it's this concept that when you hit
a certain thing, you're going to be.

Michele: Mm.

Colleen: when I hit a million
ARR, I will be happy when I buy

this house, I will be happy.

And it's this whole concept of like,
it actually has this great interview

linked of some famous basketball
player who won a championship

and was depressed afterwards.

Cause he was like, but
I'm still the same person.

Like I thought everything would
change, cause I've been striving

for this goal, my whole life.

And now I want a championship
and I'm still the same person

and nothing has really changed.

And, um, I was thinking about that a lot
about how, yes, it feels like it will

be so great when Aaron and I are on
our feet alone supporting our families.

But also you don't want to
fall into that arrival fallacy.

Like we'll still be the same people.

And it's just so important to
like, appreciate and enjoy this

part of building the business.

And I do so that's cool.

Michele: Yeah, I think it's important
to, be enjoying it right now.

And I mean, I know you, like, you've
been working a lot, you've been

working nights and weekends trying to
be stuff out before lacrosse practice,

which you knew used to not do.

Like you used to have really good,
strong boundaries around when you

worked and you have purposely removed
those boundaries and you're working a

lot, but I feel like, I mean, I get the
sense that you feel like it's worth it.

And that you're enjoying
the journey to build it.

And then, yeah, it's frustrating,
but doesn't really feel, you know,

like a slog and it's, not just the
end goal as the great philosopher

Miley Cyrus says, it's the climb.

Colleen: Oh, my goodness.

Wow.

Uh you're right.

I have removed those work-life
boundaries that I used to have

that you were so impressed with.

Um, but it's working for us right now.

So as long as it continues to work for
us, we'll just keep on, keep on in.

Michele: So your goal is
selling five licenses a month.

Is that right?

I keep getting this wrong.

Colleen: No.

I mean, you know, I think, I
think this goes back to like,

our goal is to keep, selling.

Right.

I can't necessarily control
whether someone converts or not.

So, you know, those kinds of metrics, I
don't think are super valuable because you

attach so much emotion to them, whereas
it's like, so our goal is to be doing

four to five calls a week right now.

Michele: Because that's something you can

Colleen: Cause that's
something we can control.

And so, and also, you know, I think
of all these people, like you, uh,

I had Nadia who has story graph
on, you know, Nathan Barry's tweet.

They talked to customers for a long
time until they got it just right.

So I think there's, I distinctly remember
Nadia saying, like she did like six

months of intensive customer interviews.

And so I think it's just
important to remember that.

The key.

I think for us, the key to success
is talking to our customers.

That's how we're going to move the needle.

That's how we're going to change the game.

Michele: I think it's also not
just talking to them, but also

iterating as you go through that.

Like, I saw like Matt wincing of
someone who's also on this show last

fall was saying how, you know, they've
gone through three versions of their

product, over the last, I don't know,
like two or three, two or three years.

Right?

Like.

Time, but they keep doing it and
they, and I think keep doing it

because you keep enjoying it.

You keep still being hungry for
solving what people are trying to do

and you keep iterating through it.

It's not a time of sort of, you
know, just researching, Right.

You're researching, you're
exploring you're tinkering.

You're saying, okay.

People are buying this.

We've got some people buying this amount,
but if we do this differently, like,

okay, maybe we got a little bit more like,
and you're selling as you go as well.

You're not waiting sell
it it feels perfect.

Colleen: Exactly.

And I think that's the key
is we're selling as we go and

we iterate on the product.

Michele: So next week then
for you is four to five calls.

It's actually, it sounds
like you really enjoy it.

Cause I think you said on the hammer
stone podcast, that your goal is one a

week and now the goal is four to five

Colleen: Yeah.

Now that you repeat that back to me, did
it four to five a week is a lot, maybe.

Michele: Oh no, no, no, keep it keep it.

You told me I had to be on 20 podcasts.

I said I would be on like five and
you were like 20 and I was like,

Colleen: four to five?

It

Michele: So now you have
to have five next week.

I'm sorry.

Colleen: to say four to five a month.

Michele: Oh, well, you actually
said four to five weeks.

Sorry.

It's been recorded.

It's out there now.

You can't take it back

Colleen: I mean, right
now we're at one a week.

Maybe we

Michele: hashtag.

Sorry, not sorry.

You have to do five.

Colleen: Jeez.

Oh.

Michele: you enjoy it.

Colleen: I do.

I mean, honestly, the hardest
part is freaking scheduling

with time-zones and everyone

Michele: Well, I'm the one who
complains about time zones.

Like, what is it?

Colleen: for you.

Michele: No, it does.

It does suck though.

Especially like, if you're trying to talk
to people, I guess though, you're talking

to people all over the world, right?

Like

Our customers are all us and Canada.

Colleen: Yeah.

We're all over the
world right now, but no.

No.

Okay.

I meant to say four to five a month,
but maybe I can do more than one a week.

Michele: But you said four to five a week.

and I feel like four to five a week.

Is that.

I mean, it sounds like you're,
you're like hustling here.

I feel like you're not, not to use
that word that I know is complicated

and loaded, but like you are,

you are going at it.

Colleen: I don't want to
be a golden Retriever.

I want to be a pit bull, Michelle.

Michele: Whew, I don't, I don't think
you're, I don't think you're a pit bull.

Colleen: Okay, can I be, uh,
okay, let me iterate on that, but

Michele: Like a Greyhound,
like, do you want to go fast or.

Like maybe like a Greyhound
golden retriever mix

Colleen: No.

You're I don't know.

Ah, no, you're right.

I'm hustling.

Hustling is I believe the right word.

Cause that's how I want to think about
this is like I'm hustling on this.

We're doing this.

Michele: Also pit bulls, I don't
think they can run very fast.

Don't they have the same like
congestion issues that like other

bulldogs have no there's like some dogs
that are like born with nose issues

and they can't breathe very well.

And there's some dog owners out
there who are probably telling me

this, but like, they're not, they're
known for being very strong, but

not being very particularly fast.

Colleen: Um, so I like this speaking
of inspirational things, watch.

Michele: spirit animal.

is

Colleen: Um, yeah, we're
changing the spirit animal.

Yeah.

So there's this YouTube video I love.

And it's Michael, someone from Y
Combinator talking about what makes a

good founder and it's like four minutes.

We'll add it in the show notes too.

I love it.

But I think he uses the term relentless.

That's a good term.

Michele: Um, and resilient.

Colleen: Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's like

such an

Michele: like

Yeah.

but no, but I think resilience is
important because you're sending all of

these DMS and you said you're getting the
dopamine hit from sending out the message.

And you're not like scrolling through your
Dems being like, they didn't reply to.

me.

They didn't reply to me.

Like that's, that's resilience.

Right.

Or being like, I mean, it's
normal to like, feel something

when you don't get a reply back.

Right.

I think that's totally understandable.

And you don't have to like, tell
yourself not to feel something,

cause you care, about this product.

you care about this product
getting to be your full-time job.

But yeah, just keep going.

Be a relentless golden retriever.

Just fetch that ball Coleen.

Colleen: Yes, it's amazing.

Okay.

Huge.

Thanks to all of our listeners,
who've become software

socialites and support our show.

You can become a supporter for $10 a month
or a hundred dollars a year at software

social dot dev backslash supporters, Chris
from chipper CI, the daringly handsome

Kevin Griffin, and Mike from gently used
domains, who has a nice personality.

Michele: He actually
asked me to insert that.

Colleen: Dave, from recut, max of
online or not, Stefan from talk to Stefan,

Brendan Andrade of bright bits,
Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from

the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm,
Jane and Benedikt from user list.

Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of
sign well, Corey Haynes of swipe

well, Mike Wade of crowd sentry,
Nate Ritter of room steals, and

anna maste of subscribed sense,

Geoff Roberts from outseta,

Justin Jackson, MegaMaker, Jack Ellis
and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics,

Matthew from appointment reminder, Andrew
Culver at bullet train, John Koster, Alex

of Corso systems, Richard from stunning,
Josh, the annoyingly pragmatic founder,

Ben from consent kit, John from credo
and editor ninja, cam Sloan, Michael

Koper of nusii proposals, Chris
from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet, Greg park from traitlab,

Adam from rails autoscale,
Lana and Alex from recapsy,

Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com,

Proud mama from Oplenet, LLC,

Anna from Kradl, Moncef from Ruby on Mac,

Arvid Kahl, James Sowers from castaway.fm,

Nathan of develop your UX,

Jessica Malnik, Damian Moore of audio
audit podcast checker, Eldon from nodle

studios, Mitchell Davis from recruit kit.

Michele: And that was amazing.

People like keep supporting
us, which is awesome.

Well, I guess that's gonna,
wrap us up for today.

I am off to conferences next week?

So I guess the next.

Colleen: Yay.

Michele: I can tell you about
how the workshop, and talks go.

Um, and I look forward to
hearing about your four to

five, uh, sales calls per week.

Colleen: Okay, bye.

Bye.

Michele: Stop talking to me.

Colleen: It's not making me do

Michele: Don't make me
do more sales calls.

Okay.

Bye.