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Our podcast features special guests and leaders discussing the many projects, partnerships, and innovations driving hydrogen adoption — starting in the Edmonton Metro Region, and expanding outward to Alberta, Canada, and the World.
Edmonton Region Hydrogen HUB is a collaborative initiative dedicated to advancing a thriving hydrogen economy in the Edmonton Region and beyond. Bringing together municipalities, industry, and associations, the HUB focuses on building a robust hydrogen value chain through collaboration, system integration, and policy advocacy. Leveraging the region’s world-class hydrogen production facilities and strategic infrastructure, the HUB drives innovation, promotes decarbonization, and stimulates economic growth, positioning the Edmonton region as a global leader in sustainable hydrogen development.
Welcome to the Hydrogen two point o podcast where Alberta's energy story evolves. Join us as we explore what's changed, what's working, and what's next from Edmonton to beyond. Here's your host, Kessia Kopecki.
Kessia:Thanks for tuning in to our latest episode of hydrogen two point o. In this episode, we're gonna be discussing how sustainable energy and hydrogen adoption cannot be achieved in a single leap. It's a series of deliberate steps. So joining me today is Sarah Lisenring, a master's student in mechanical engineering at the University of Alberta. She's working with doctor Bob Koch in the mechanical engineering energy control team at the University of Alberta.
Kessia:So in this episode, we want to discuss what transition really looks like in practice. Thanks, Sarah, for joining us. How are you today?
Sarah:Thank you so much for introducing me. I'm fine. How are you?
Kessia:I'm really good. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us and being a part of this. It's really exciting to have you join us, being that the hub team, the Edmonton Region Hydruna hub team, got the chance to visit your lab. That's where you and I first met, on the outskirts of the city in order to see your technology up front.
Kessia:So that was really, really interesting, and I'm I'm grateful that you are able to take the time and for us to continue that discussion that we started back in August. So before we get into anything, I would love for you to explain to anybody listening who you are and introduce yourself. I think a lot of people in the Edmonton region that that are listening might already know you. You're quite a usual suspect. However, for anybody that's new to us, they might not know any anything about you and what you do and what Bob Koch is doing in his lab.
Kessia:So take it away. Thank you. Yeah.
Sarah:So let's start thirteen years ago. Thirteen years ago, I started my training as a car mechatronics. And, yeah, I became a certified car mechatronics back in Germany. I worked at this job for a little more than one and a half years before I decided it's time to take the next step. So I started studying at a technical college in 2017.
Sarah:And spent about two more years to become a certified engineer in car technology and electromobility. After that, I moved once across Germany, once more, and I started working in research and development for heavy duty diesel engines in Cologne. Sadly, COVID hit and I had to leave after just eighteen months. And I was really sad about that because I love to work with these heavy machines and the facility was really nice. But I took this step back, so to say, to tackle one thing I've always been afraid of doing, namely going to university.
Sarah:And so in 2020, I started a teacher's training program. And in Germany, you have to take two main subjects and I took English and mechanical engineering. At the end of my bachelor's studies, I had to go to an English speaking country to spend some time there to work on my English skills. I came here to Edmond, to the University of Alberta. And when I was here in the 2024, I did my research part of my bachelor's thesis and I was insanely lucky to meet Professor Koch.
Sarah:And he actually offered me a position as master's students here. And I am beyond grateful for that opportunity because yeah, I loved engines and cars and trucks since I was in grade eight. But in Germany, the research around combustion engines isn't that big anymore and especially the politics are pushing towards electrification a lot. So I didn't see my spot there anymore. And so when this opportunity opened, I, yeah, immediately took it.
Sarah:And now I'm here, and I'm back on track to become an engineer. And even though I'm not planning on working as a teacher anymore, I am happy that here at the university, I still get the opportunity to educate people about what I'm doing. So for example, I'm here today so I can talk to the audience about what we do. And at the end of the month, I have a showcase at the Thales World of Science where I try to explain my work to 10 year old kids, and I am really excited to spread the word out.
Kessia:Perfect. Well, maybe you can tell me a little bit more about your research. I know it's probably quite complicated. That's why you're a master's student doing this full time. Maybe you can try to explain it to me as if I'm a 10 year old, and we'll give you some practice for the end of the month.
Sarah:That is very, very nice of you. Okay. So if we see a truck, just like we see a human, so the truck has a brain for example. And the brain of the truck is the engine control unit, short ECU. And the diet of the truck is, for example, diesel fuel, petrol, natural gas, hydrogen, or maybe electricity.
Sarah:And just like we humans have different diets, it just makes sense to compare them. For example, humans can be carnivores, we only eat meat. And meat produces a lot of CO2 because of the animals where they live, they have to get fed, they have to get transported. And this is equal to having a diesel only diet in the truck. And if we then look at the other end, a vegetarian, for example, they mainly eat fruit and vegetables and they produce less CO2.
Sarah:And this is the same if we look at hydrogen. So if we only compass hydrogen, we have almost zero CO2. And then there is this middle ground, the omnivore, the person who eats everything. And this is my research, the omnivore truck. So this truck will take diesel and hydrogen and use both fuels.
Sarah:And the big benefit is if you don't have hydrogen available, you can just run on diesel. But if you have hydrogen available, you run with less c o two because you run on both fuels.
Kessia:Perfect. And that's dual fuel technology, hydrogen diesel. Thank you. Yep. Alright.
Kessia:So what drew you to this hydrogen dual fuel kind of story and research? Was there a moment that got you here, and and what's keeping you interested in hydrogen?
Sarah:So coming from Germany where everything is pushing towards the electrification without looking left and right, I was really, really pleased to come here to go into the university and see that there is active research on an alternative which has a transitional character. So here we take something which is old and well established. We rely on diesel engines for decades and we know how to handle them. We know that they will last us a very long time. And I feel like here we don't give up on them just now, but we try to give them a second chance sort of kind of.
Sarah:So we try to introduce a different fuel into them to make them more friendly for the environment. But since we are already building on a very, very stable base, I feel like this technology can be out on the market in less time than starting completely from scratch and going the fuel cell or battery way. Also, if we just look out on the streets, these trucks are running. There are new trucks running and every truck costs a lot of money. And we have entire fleets operating in Alberta.
Sarah:I just looked it up the other day and we are almost around a million diesel trucks if we take all sizes of them into consideration. I am not a big fan of taking something which is perfect and well running and just throwing it into the dump. So I really like that this retrofit approach is taking what we already have and it is just putting it into a new level, of, kind of. And so our approach, not just ours but also from different countries, companies, is to take the diesel base and build on it. And so the trucks don't have to be scrapped.
Sarah:No new trucks have to be bought. It is only retrofit which can be done in a workshop and then the trucks can go back to work. And one point, we have less waste because we don't dump the trucks. And the second point, it is cheaper So it is better for the companies which have these drugs. And also in my opinion, I think that it is a big chance for the economy because right now we are doing the research and the development here in Edmonton.
Sarah:And so we can also produce these systems here, and we can install them here. We maintain them here. So in my opinion, this is just a way more feasible approach.
Kessia:And also, as I've kind of heard around that the Edmonton region and Alberta, because of our northern climate and extreme cold winters, there's a lot to be said about the value that fleet operators might have in using diesel dual fuel or even just straight hydrogen here just because of how it might perform with especially heavy loads or long hauls compared to other technologies. Do you have anything that you can tell us about that?
Sarah:Yeah. So, with fuel cells, the biggest problem right now is that they need really, really high grade hydrogen, which we don't have an infrastructure for. And also it is very important to have it to begin with. And they are very heavy. They are, up to this point, we are not able to control them completely.
Sarah:So there are always technical issues. The technology is just not developed yet. And the same goes for the battery electric cars or trucks. And just as you mentioned, these trucks are massive. They are big.
Sarah:They are heavy. They run very, very wide distances. And this is just something we cannot pull with electric systems. And also, as you mentioned, the weather climate here is very, very harsh. And the colder it gets, the worse is your efficiency in a battery electric vehicle, for example.
Sarah:And so even though they would probably run fairly good into spring and winter, into spring and fall, I don't see them operate in minus 40 and I also think that there are still issues when it gets too warm. So when we have our 35 degree days here in Alberta, I, don't think that fuel cells or battery electric cars at the moment could handle that.
Kessia:So it sounds like these bridging technologies like dual fuel hydrogen diesel are somewhat of a solution to overcome obstacles or challenges with other technologies. Right? Like, the end goal is that we want to decarbonize our fleets, and this is a a really good way to start moving in that direction.
Sarah:Yes. I also think that if we start with this intermediate step, so the hydrogen diesel fuel, that we give the infrastructure a chance to develop. So the hydrogen, for example, doesn't just fall out of the blue sky. We actually have to build the facilities to generate enough hydrogen so we could fuel fleets. Then the same goes for the fueling stations.
Sarah:They also don't exist right now. So we also would have to build them before we can actually run big fleets on them. And I also think that this intermediate approach gives the other technologies enough time to fully develop because a half developed product is no good. I think most of us in Edmonton are aware of the problem the city of Edmonton faced with their buses, where they bought a lot of electric buses and they didn't work, then the company producing them went bankrupt and now nobody can help them maintain the buses. And now they have this huge pile of junk sitting in their yard.
Sarah:And again, the technology was not there yet. And we produced more waste which is not good for our environment. So in my opinion, this is not a smart move to jump stones just to get there quicker because good things need time. If we want to develop a thorough project, a thorough product, we just have to invest the time, the thought, and the energy to actually test it. Not just develop something on the computer, but really test it on the streets.
Kessia:Yeah. Yeah. I guess we want we want all of our vehicles on the road, especially when when they're providing critical services and transporting critical goods to have the same performance as the performance that we're used to now in any condition. So I think that's a really, really good point. I just wanted to go back and and talk a little bit about your time in Germany because I know you were there for quite some time and studying there for quite some time.
Kessia:And I'm kinda curious about when we think of, like, public perception of, for example, diesel or gasoline running vehicles or EVs and hydrogen. What kinds of things did you gather even just from being on the ground around people and doing the work that you were doing? What kind of perceptions did you pick up from from Germany?
Sarah:So I think one problem yeah. Yeah. It's actually a problem is that most people think the moment you have a hydrogen tank in your car, you're sitting on a bomb, on a sharp bomb, which will just go off any moment in your life. I think that the same problem probably holds here in Canada. People don't know a lot about it.
Sarah:They know it is an explosive gas. It comes with all these dangerous stickers and stuff. Nobody is used to being around it. Nobody is properly trained on handling it. If we just think back to when Mr.
Sarah:Otto invented the engines back in the days, nobody knew about combustion back then. And diesel fumes are just as dangerous as hydrogen. And petrol fumes are just as dangerous. The same goes for natural gas and all the fuels we are using right now. Propane.
Sarah:These are all highly combustible gases. They are all dangerous. But the difference between them and hydrogen is just that we are used to it. We are used to see these big white propane tanks with all their red warning symbols and stuff plastered on all of them. But we know how to handle them.
Sarah:The same goes for diesel and petrol. I mean, we just chuck them into cherry cans, throw them in the back of the truck, off we go. But if it would leak and then someone would smoke a cigarette, is still a chance of things exploding. So it is not about hydrogen being dangerous. It is about we, the people using it, just have to be aware of when do I have to pay more attention.
Sarah:How much work do you think
Kessia:is involved to get to get people to understand that? Because it sounds to me like what you're saying is hydrogen is if if more or less, it's just as dangerous as any other fuel that we're using, they're all combustion fuels. Right? So what do you think the message is there for for anybody who thinks that hydrogen is way more unsafe and volatile than diesel?
Sarah:I think that having, for example, hydrogen powered buses is a good first step, especially when they say it on the outside of the bus, I am running with hydrogen or here hydrogen diesel fuel is used just so people are forced to sit next to them in traffic and realize, oh my god, they are not exploding. They are running just fine and they are not noisy or or something else than the other buses. Then I'm pretty sure every one of us has driven behind an older bus and then it passed out these big smoky clouds. And if the hydrogen bus drives next to you and there are no big puffy black smoky clouds, then you'll probably also think, Oh, that is actually better. So I think we just need someone like the city to lead us into the public perception that it is a feasible approach, just like it also was with battery electric vehicles in Germany, for example.
Sarah:So the public didn't have access to it yet because it was just way too expensive. And up to this day, we don't have the infrastructure to charge the cars. And I don't think that this will change in the next twenty years, but nobody's asking me. And we saw these buses on the streets. So they were like, I am an electric bus.
Sarah:And you were sitting next to them and you were impressed how silent they are and that they are working just fine just like all the other buses. And so this is gaining the attention of the public, and that they can see that it is actually working.
Kessia:So my understanding with the engines that you have in Bob Cook's lab and your lab is that you are working with the city of Edmonton on those engines. Can you tell me a little bit about that partnership?
Sarah:Yes. So we have two labs at the moment. One is on campus where we only have a small four cylinder engine, and the big engines are at the East End where we have a standalone building where we have, for example, the city of Edmonton engine. This is a nine liter engine. And we also have our research engine in the same room, which is the engine I will mainly work with.
Sarah:This is a 6.7 liter Cummins. And City of Edmonton very generously donated this engine to us. And these are technology industries is also helping us a lot with getting it running and getting it ready to operate. And we are doing a lot of research on how the hydrogen affects the operation in the diesel engine. And we are testing how much hydrogen the production brain from the engine can actually take with out us introducing damage to the engine or having other negative side effects.
Sarah:And yeah, so you visited us and you probably can remember entering this big chamber with those big engines, which are just as tall as both of us. And the dynamometer also just as tall as us sitting in the middle of it. And everyone who have ever seen it knows that we ran a lot of cable. Are so many cables we had to wire up basically everything. And I have to give a lot of credit to my colleagues out at Min Yu because I have only been around for the last half year, but they have been working on that for the last five years.
Sarah:It took them five years to get this lab to the point it is right now. And we are actually the only lab I know of which is that holistic. So we can measure and control everything about the engines. And this is very, very unique because other research groups cannot take control of the entire engine because they still have to rely on the production ECU. But we are trying to find a way to get rid of it.
Sarah:So one part of our research is to find the limits of the production ECU when it comes to handling hydrogen. That's mainly my part. But my colleagues are working on developing a new controller which is handling the hydrogen even better. So we can inject way more hydrogen.
Kessia:So just working on efficiency and and how much you can use and how much power you can get with it.
Sarah:Yes. So putting in the hydrogen is coming with a lot of side effects which are kind of difficult to handle. So the two fuels just have completely different characteristics and we have to take both of them into consideration to make sure that the engine runs just as long as it would run if it only runs on diesel. But if we get back to the diet comparison, if you are a carnivore, you know what to eat during the day. So you feel healthy and fit.
Sarah:But if you from now to tomorrow think, oh no, I want to be a vegetarian, then you figure out, oh, I'm lacking my protein, for example. And so you need to learn new recipes. You have to figure out that you have to eat more beans or but I know. And this is the same what we will do with the engine controller. So we will tell him new recipes to use the hydrogen and the diesel.
Kessia:Okay. So different mixes to see all the different ways that it can perform. So with doing this, you have two engines that you're working with. I imagine there's probably gonna be a point in time where your research is gonna scale. So what's it like as far as availability or lack thereof when it comes to getting engines like this into your lab?
Sarah:It is actually pretty, pretty difficult. So the this is also why it is so good to have the engine from the city of Edmonton, this big one, because the engines are expensive. And the manufacturers of the engines, of course, they have their businesses. They have to think about themselves. They have to make sure that their business is run.
Sarah:But this also results in the producers and manufacturers of the engines not really closely cooperating with us. So as I mentioned, many other research teams are hindered by the fact that they cannot change the production ECU, so they cannot change the control of the engine. But also if we look into the literature, most research is still done on a one cylinder lab scale engine. And the sad thing about combustion is you cannot just unlimitedly scale it up. So because it runs on the one cylinder engine, it doesn't mean that it runs on the six cylinder engine because the engine is way bigger, it has different geometries inside the burning chamber and it is a very, very, very complex system.
Sarah:And this is also why the work of my colleagues is so critical that we figure out how to quickly train the brain of the truck so it can facilitate the second fuel. Because if we would do it in a traditional way, the traditional way an engine controller is programmed takes three to six years depending on how complex the system is. And it takes in these six years like five days a week, eight hours on a test stand and several engineers just fine tune it number by number by number. Nobody wants to invest six years now because we want to have this bridging technology. And so this is why we are applying new methods.
Sarah:We rely on machine learning techniques combined with our expertise and model predictive controllers. And the approach we are taking only needs twenty minutes to program a new controller. But this means that before that we have to have a really, really, really well tailored data set. And this data set you need to collect from the engine you want to make the new brain for. But still, even with the data collection and working with the data it will not take us six years.
Sarah:And yeah. So this is the second part of our research to control development.
Kessia:Perfect. So I guess with this, there's one last question that I do wanna ask you for the sake of time. So I'm just gonna casually, abruptly move into it because you've been talk and I've I've seen your lab, and I know you have a really, really small team. And from conversations that we've had as well as I've had a few with your colleagues, it sounds like it's really hard to get researchers and master's students and PhD students working on this stuff. So, again, going with that scarcity of technology and getting that into the lab, what's it like, and what's the need as far as workforce and expertise that are working on these projects?
Kessia:Do you have enough of that? Is there enough in the world?
Sarah:If there is enough in the world, I cannot tell you.
Kessia:I had never figured you wouldn't.
Sarah:But what I observe but what I observe here in the team is that we are in need of more masters and PhD students. Professor Koch is trying to hire new students, but it is really difficult to find people who are actually interested in doing combustion because at the moment it's just not the hip thing to do. Therefore, the labs are closing down and I only know of one other lab in Canada operating with combustion engines, and that is at the University of British Columbia. Sadly, the University at Toronto had to shut down their combustion lab because the professor retired. And I am a little scared that in a couple of years we will have very, very few highly trained professionals in this field because everyone is moving towards control, battery and fuel cell.
Sarah:And I don't think that this is a good idea just because as we mentioned we live in severe weather so we still need the combustion engines. There are poorer countries who will still rely on combustion because they can neither afford the infrastructure for electricity nor will they have the money to buy these battery cars. And so I don't think it is wise to give up the expertise in the field.
Kessia:What's the consequence if all of these labs close and all of these people stop coming to this workforce in this field of work? Well, when you think long term, what's the, like Well, I think what's the worst thing that could happen?
Sarah:Well, the worst thing that could happen is that we try to develop the fuel cell technology and the battery technology. And then we reach a point where we are like, okay, this is just not working for reasons I cannot foretell because I'm not a professional in these fields. They don't work for buses, they don't work for long distance trucks. And then we sit there and we don't have the expertise to improve our diesel engines even further. So it is good to be a visionary and to think ahead and to work on the fuel cells and the battery.
Sarah:Don't get me wrong, it is important that we always look forward. But I think that we should play it safe and also try to rely on what we have been working with over decades. So I really hope that we will find more students and that we will find PhD students who then maybe even become professors at the university here or in Toronto or at UBC. But I don't think that it is a good idea to let this branch of knowledge die. But I already feel that the university, we only have one combustion course and nothing else.
Sarah:And so everything I learned from my studies, I have to sort of kind of figure out by myself. So I'm reading a lot books, a lot of papers. And of course you learn a lot from that, but there's nothing better than actually having an instructor you can discuss problems with and also having colleagues you can discuss with. I am the only combustion person we have in the team. Everyone else is controls.
Sarah:And so I feel a bit like the last unicorn.
Kessia:Well, I certainly and I think probably speak on behalf of the Alberta hydrogen economy, commend you for staying committed to this field of work because in the Edmonton region and and across Western Canada, especially when it comes to these colder climates and heavy duty operations that fleets are trying to do, I think this kind of work and research is very important and will play a big role in the transformation of our fleet. So big kudos. Keep at it. Keep the rest of your team at it. Is there anything that you want to leave the audience with or anything that you'd like to tell anyone listening, whether they're students, engineers, policymakers?
Kessia:What's a takeaway that you want people to hear?
Sarah:This bridging technology is worth the effort. It is worth it. And if there are students listening to that and they thought about, is engineering interesting for me or not, just come and visit us. Just apply, just come for a visit at our lab and see what we do. And then you will see that it is worth it.
Sarah:And we need to research to show the industry where the potential lies. And we also need the research at the university to always have an objective feedback on what our technologies are doing right now. So the university is not just here to get kids for grad school or undergrad school, but the university is actually also doing a lot of work for us as a society and also for the economy. Because if we at the university now prove that this transitional approach is feasible and good, then of course the manufacturers will take that idea and then they will strive with it, they will make the money with it. And not just the engine manufacturers, but also the people building the infrastructure, the people producing the hydrogen and also workshops.
Sarah:They then have to learn new things and have to hire more people, new people. So there's just so much to it. And transportation of goods, of people is essential to our society. And so chopping off this lag is, in my opinion, just not a good idea.
Kessia:Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah, for coming and joining us on Hydrogen two point o. Really appreciate you taking the time and and sharing your insights, especially from the perspective of research and somebody who's actively researching this and understanding industry and the needs. It it means a lot, and I think I I hope that everyone listening, also saw the value that I did. I think it was a great conversation.
Kessia:So thanks for being here with me and and driving down this rabbit hole with me.
Sarah:Thanks for having me. It was a wonderful time chatting with you about my research.
Kessia:That's it for today's episode of Hydrogen two point 0. If you are looking to learn more about the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy, learn more about the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, or get in touch with us, you can visit hydrogen.ca or send us an email at hello@hydrogen.ca. Also, feel free to follow us on LinkedIn, the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, to stay up to date on all the news and all the activities happening in our hydrogen economy.