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The GGJ Podcast brings the spirit of Global Game Jam to your headphones, with people from around the world sharing how they found their way into game development. Each week, Susan Gold talks with developers, studio founders, and festival organizers about the twists, risks, and side doors that shaped their paths and communities. You will hear honest stories about creativity, collaboration, failure, and the messy, beautiful reality of making games.
GGJ Podcast Episode 1: Running Towards Success | Jenny Xu
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[00:00:00 This is the GGJ Podcast, a show about the games industry, the people who make them, and the communities that grow up around them. I'm Susan Gold, a game education Trailblazer and one of the founders of the Global Game Jam.
[00:00:19] Each week we sit down with a new guest, highlighting their own path and journey.
[00:00:24] This is a space for honest conversation from makers about creativity, [00:00:30] collaboration, failure and the messy, the beautiful reality of making games. So whether you're a young dev or seasoned an educator, a student, or someone who just loves games and the people behind them, welcome to the GGJ Podcast.
[00:00:43] Take a breath, settle in, and let's hear directly from the makers themselves.
[00:00:48] This podcast is made possible in partnership with the Global Game Jam, the world's largest game creation event, bringing together creators from around the globe. A big thank you as well to the Global Game Jam's. Headline sponsors, [00:01:00] Epic Games, Games for Change, and Xsolla for helping make this creative community a reality.
[00:01:06] To learn more and to get involved in upcoming jams, visit global game jam.org.
[00:01:12] This episode is brought to you in part through the support of the University of Miami School of Communication, and the John s and James L. Knight Foundation. Their commitment to storytelling, media innovation and community engagement help make conversations like these possible.
[00:01:35] Susan Gold: In today's episode, we're going deep with Jenny Xu.
[00:01:38] She's a long distance runner, a Forbes 30 under 30 honoree, and the CEO and founder of Talofa Games a studio that uses games to make movement more fun. Jenny has shipped more than 10 mobile titles with millions of downloads. One Niantic's Beyond Reality Developer Contest, and is pioneering a new kind of fitness game with Run Legends and Monster [00:02:00] Walk. We talk about how a painfully shy kid in Cupertino becomes a prolific solo creator. What happened when an early startup almost broker confidence? and what it takes to build a career at the intersection of games, community, and health. We also get into ambition, burnout, and why support system matters just as much as your portfolio.
[00:02:23] Hi, Jenny. Thanks for joining me.
[00:02:25] Jenny Xu: Yes, thanks for having me, Susan. Very excited to chat today.
[00:02:29] Susan Gold: where are you talking to us from today? did you go on a long run today?
[00:02:35] Jenny Xu: Yes, I am in San Francisco, so it's very, very close to the ferry building. And I do this eight mile loop that goes like straight from my house. Close to the, the Golden Gate Bridge.
[00:02:47] And then I, I come back. So
[00:02:48] Susan Gold: you go all the way down to the Presidio?
[00:02:50] Jenny Xu: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whoa.
[00:02:54] Susan Gold: You are a runner. When someone outside of games asks what do you [00:03:00] do? How do you introduce yourself these days?
[00:03:03] Jenny Xu: Yes, it's a good question, since we combine the fitness and the gaming aspects, but usually when people ask me what I do, I say I make movement more fun.
[00:03:14] It's, or I think people tend to pick up gamified health or gamified fitness really well and kind quickly pick up like, oh, you mean like Pokemon Go? And it is cool because Pokemon Go and Niantic were the company that [00:03:30] kicked us off. So it's the quickest thing that they can compare us to and we can say like, yes, they kicked us off.
[00:03:36] other things I usually mention is I. Use. Games to make people move more. That's also sometimes what I share with people and they kind of perk up and ask like, how?, And that's where like I share more about the games we make.
[00:03:51] Susan Gold: Awesome.
[00:03:52] I wonder you became a Forbes 30 under 30, and so people, associate you with, oh, she's so [00:04:00] successful, all these things.
[00:04:01] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm
[00:04:01] Susan Gold: But really, how do you want people to associate your name? How do you want them to think about you? This is your story.
[00:04:09] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm. That's a great question. And the whole reason why I am making games, like what we're making at Talofa is because I want to make a difference and I wanna do something different.
[00:04:20] So even just trying to make games that touch that intersection of mental health, physical health, it's creating a new genre or [00:04:30] category or just space, for more of these types of games to exist and to share that this can work. you can make stuff that feels magical, gets people to move and that are things that people have never played before. So, that's why I would love people to see me kind of less for the success, and more as an inspiration to make games like the ones we make at Talofa because I wanted to play more [00:05:00] games like the ones that we make
[00:05:01] So if we are seen as pioneers in a new category, or at least like pushing the whole space forward, then it would make me feel like the time that I've spent founding this company was worth it.
[00:05:16] Susan Gold: Oh, that's beautiful. I'm gonna go back a little bit and start at the beginning, where did you grow up and, where was your life, like at 12 when you started making games? what sparked this idea that you could create [00:05:30] games, not just play them?
[00:05:31] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Cupertino, which is in the Bay Area, and I actually grew up a very quiet and socially awkward kid. So at 12 I was extremely introverted, to the point of only speaking in one word sentences. So people would talk to me and I would say "cool" or "okay". And that's about it.I was known as being like a [00:06:00] really quiet kid that happened to be fast at running. that was one thing that was true is like my feet spoke louder than my words, I was. Setting school records in the mile, like I got a five 30 mile in sixth grade.
[00:06:14] So I always knew I loved fitness even at 12, but I didn't know how to talk to people. So with that came an abundance of time because when kids would usually socialize. I found myself reading a lot of [00:06:30] manga, watching anime, like consuming internet content. And at some point it turned from watching, reading manga, playing games like Pokemon, to actually drawing Pokemon. I was really into a game called Neopets and that segways into making games and more myself, taking on more of the creative role. 'cause the way to be famous in Neopets. From the Neopets community perspective is to get published in the [00:07:00] Neopean Times, which was a comic strip that was like the New York Times, published weekly, but on the Neopets site. And my favorite artists were always posting every week at some point, the idea sparked of can I get published on the European Times? And I drew my first comic strips at age, I think 11, even before I got into games. And then, when I got my first strips published, just really started feeling like this was a place that I belonged. I didn't belong in the real [00:07:30] world yet, but I belonged in the digital. So that community aspect really helped me think I can do digital art. And that was the spark that eventually led me to learning animation. Different animation programs like Flash. I used to make my comics first, and then I realized you can make games with them. So then it was a very kind of slow transition into making games instead of just comic strips for Neopets.
[00:07:57] Susan Gold: And did you have someone [00:08:00] teach you these tools or did you just explore it and find them yourself?
[00:08:05] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really found a lot of these tools just online, like stackoverflow.com was my friend. I was a very chronically online, so it was like a bit of a self-study program. I didn't take any computer science classes until my junior year of high school. So from sixth grade to to junior year of high school. I was just self-learning [00:08:30] and it was because I was just so motivated to continue to feel that sense of belonging online. And the validation I was getting from people loving my comics, people loving my Pokemon fan art that joy it brought me is something that I, I think, really kept me going.
[00:08:46] Susan Gold: It's really interesting. I, I don't think at that age I would've wanted to share anything I made. You know, that's just one of those things that it's really when you're [00:09:00] young to put yourself out there really hard,
[00:09:04] Most people age 12 would be running the other way. But it's a different generation. I think that you grew up in a time where you were looking at other people and you were emulating, but you were just doing it a lot better.
[00:09:21] Jenny Xu: Thank you. I do think the, the thing that really helped was that I had an alter ego online. I didn't like who I was at the time. I was like [00:09:30] the odd kid, the weird person that never talked and. that people didn't wanna be friends with. And online I was this more extroverted, social person who was very loving, very excitable, very expressive, like shared a lot.nobody knew that it was Jenny Xu, the creator, it was ChibiXi or ChibiXi was my name. And it was very unclear if I was a guy, a girl, what my gender was. So it was all anonymized [00:10:00] and that gave me some of the strength to step into a version of me that I would say now I've actually become, but at the time it was two different selves, the, a very sociable, fun, online presence and then the real version of me that was not yet there.
[00:10:15] Susan Gold: it's interesting as I, I. I'm known for my network, right?. And one of the things that nobody knows is that I was scared to death to go out my front door every [00:10:30] time. And so I had a book and it would tell you like how to work a room and, and I would just flip through the book and be like, okay, I'm gonna do this. And that's how I would function. I would go and I would just do that. but I kind of wanna just let people know and understand by the time you're in your early twenties, you've made over a hundred games, right?
[00:10:53] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:54] Susan Gold: You've done multiple apps and you've had millions of downloads, and that is [00:11:00] something that, how do you explain that level of ambition and initiative. In hindsight, of course.
[00:11:07] Jenny Xu: Yeah. Yeah. at some point making games was just very addicting. It was like a game in itself, the most prolific period was 12 to 18 middle school to high school It started with every day turn around a new game, publish it online so, I draw a program, write market, email creators, like all, really without knowing how any of [00:11:30] this worked and just trial and error, I think what really drove me was actually the love of the craft. I liked blending and experimenting with things like, uh, horror comedy, dating sims even. stories and world building and like creating complex characters that had unique motivations i'd say what really kind of drove me to keep doing more and more and more is just my first games maybe got 10 views and then at a certain point, like some of them just caught on [00:12:00] fire just overnight because I was posting almost every week, multiple games. And some of them would just hit the top page of DeviantArt.com and I thought, oh, if they're viral online, maybe I can take them to mobile, and then when I put 10 of them on the mobile app stores, some of them started generating revenue and I didn't make games to make money at the time I was making games because it was so fun. And that going viral felt like validation of who I [00:12:30] was, that I de deserved to make games or I deserved to be there. And when those mobile games started making money, I had this kind of seed of a thought of, what if I could do this forever? is this actually. An actual career. 'cause I didn't know anyone in games. I thought it was like a, a career everyone aspired to have, but it wasn't actually like a real path. So, it was, I'd say the first signs that this was something more than just a, a [00:13:00] world to escape into, like an alter ego to be, but my real career was computer scientist.
[00:13:06] Susan Gold: I love how you created opportunities for yourself, but do you feel that pursuing a degree gave you some sort of advantage? did you have a very big push to go to school from the family, or was it more that you thought it was necessary?
[00:13:25] Jenny Xu: it actually felt more like school was the only option because. [00:13:30] Gaming was just the fun thing on the side. The hobby. Even my parents didn't take it very seriously or didn't really think it was a big thing that I was doing up until they saw the amount of money it was generating. But it was always like, oh, this is a fun thing. Like you paid for college with this money now get a real job And that's what everyone in the Bay Area, especially the Asian families, like you're all pushed down the pipeline to be like an engineer especially. So I [00:14:00] always saw it as my only, path.
[00:14:02] And I would say the other thing was
[00:14:05] doing the college recruiting pipeline for a while for sports. Like track and field, cross country. Pretty much from the time I did my first season of track and field, colleges were sending me letters, trying to recruit me becauseI was winning championships. I was doing better than a lot of my coaches. thought was possible And there were some very fast people on our team, but I was definitely in the top. [00:14:30] So the whole reason for sport was to get recruited to a good college and then to get to, uh, study somewhere and, it just felt like it was, everything I was doing was a stepping stone. Even games was like a stepping stone to get into a good college.
[00:14:45] So there were like multiple reasons to go, and I'm, I am very glad I did.
[00:14:50] Susan Gold: Oh, I'm glad you did too. when you started early in your career, you had that alias and nobody knew that you, like you [00:15:00] said, you're a woman, you're a man, I don't wanna say you hid behind it, but when did you start to feel comfortable to work without an alias?
[00:15:08] Jenny Xu: Yeah. It's actually funny since I had the alias up until junior year of college. Where I, the, the way I got outed, or I linked the identities was actually because of Forbes 30 under 30.I actually wasn't telling anyone. Most people knew me in college as the, the runner, [00:15:30] Jenny,
[00:15:30] And I was okay with that and nobody knew I made games. And then kind of out of the blue, I remember being in an algorithms class and getting an email that said, Hey, you're on the Forbes list. And I was like, really confused, like what that actually meant or if people actually cared. And um, basically what happened was that like Reddit articles came out being like MIT student on Forbes 30 under 30 like people were texting me saying, the list got published and you're on [00:16:00] there. And at the time I was 19 and by the time they published the list, I was 20. So I was like, Forbes under, under 30 for me was like a bucket list. To do by the time I was 30 and I was sitting there in the classroom at 19, like, oh, what, what happened?
[00:16:17] So it was, it was just this moment where I was almost forced to become a more public. Figure, uh, despite wanting to hide behind like alter ego. And that's actually when I [00:16:30] started meeting more people in the industry and starting to realize there's thousands of people behind the games I play, or hundreds at least. And the kind of, it was good, it was good timing because I actually think that's what I needed the integration to actually become like who I am today as CEO.
[00:16:48] Susan Gold: Wow. So there you are. You're making these huge breakthroughs. Bigger doors start to open. What's happening in your life then?
[00:16:57] Jenny Xu: I would say like the [00:17:00] Forbes 30 under 30 thing gave me the confidence to start going to things like GDC and asking the question, what is it actually like to start a studio? Like I am at this point, starting to question whether software engineering is actually the path I want to take, because it felt like an now or never thing of if I don't do games now, I'll get sucked into like a, a Google and stay there and just never explore [00:17:30] what could have been. And I, I do think the learning how to network was like one of the most painful things because I was still learning how to make friends. I was looking up wiki how articles of how to. Be at party in college and seem normal, how to hold solo cup and throw away alcohol to seem cool. I was really learning, in the background, how to be a normal human. And it [00:18:00] was watching channels like Charisma on Command, Dale Carnegie's, "How to Win Friends and Influence People". And I was like, memorizing line by line. Like, use the person's name, point your feet towards them. Like, it was like set of instructions that it was so great.
[00:18:15] Susan Gold: I absolutely know. I, I, I totally do. I, like I told you, I'd flip through that book and I'm like, I'm gonna do that. Wear your name badge opposite your shaking hand. Okay. You know, like that was like [00:18:30] all I could do because I was meeting people that were famous.
[00:18:36] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:37] Susan Gold: I didn't feel like I was that significant. So you have that feeling and then, there you are. They're like, who are you? You're on this list, right?
[00:18:49] And you're like, I have to explain myself.
[00:18:51] Jenny Xu: Yes. Yes. Uh, definitely lots of hiding in the bathrooms as well, or like getting overwhelmed to the point of [00:19:00] just sitting there for 10 minutes and amping myself up. I still do that to this day.
[00:19:06] Susan Gold: I think that a lot of people will empathize with you there. I've had students who get nervous just answering questions in class.
[00:19:15] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:15] Susan Gold: So, I, I understand that like, putting yourself out there is huge and I truly am appreciative that you're here on the podcast and I'm glad that you've overcome so many of those things.
[00:19:30] So did winning Niantic beyond Reality developer contest right after graduation, how did that opportunity come about?
[00:19:38] Jenny Xu: Yeah. Yeah. It's actually a very fascinating story because I was at a point where I decided not to go into games studio directly, and I had joined another company to be a co-founder right in my senior year of college. So, I graduated early to join that company, and then [00:20:00] it didn't end up working out, or I just realized I really didn't like working there. So I left, and it was at the time that all my friends had already gotten full-time offers. So I had both given up on the dream to do a studio full-time at that point, and also just left the first thing I graduated early for, I had moved from Boston to Portland and thought I'd be in Portland, for life. and kind of six months [00:20:30] later was, was going back home and kinda defeated and spirit and body and really just felt like I made the wrong move. I should have stayed in school.I missed party semester. my last year of college was just flying back and forth from Boston to Portland every week and just working on on a new company And just coming out of that, I was incredibly defeated and my self-confidence was probably at an all time low, I was also weight wise, like at [00:21:00] the heaviest I'd ever been, and. That was when the Niantic thing happened was when I was at uh, GDC. Actually, I didn't wanna go 'cause I was embarrassed that, and when people ask me how things are going, I'm like, everything failed. Everything I tried failed. I had such a high expectation of how my career would go because of my early success, that I almost had this ego problem of I am just a child prodigy who can never [00:21:30] fail. All my games get better and better. And then kind of first thing I do outta college is fail. So then I had this moment of what if I am actually just a fraud? I peaked in high school because I got lucky and I'm not actually that good. And just somebody I talked to at GDC happened to be at Niantic. her name was Ninian Wang. And I knew her through a college program I did. And she told me. About this contest and introduced me to another person [00:22:00] at Niantic who ended up being our game design mentor Laura Warner. and there was three days left to apply when they told me about it. And it was already extended from the original deadlines. So it was kind of this moment of I am so defeated and depressed right now that I could do this, but am I really truly qualified? And on paper I was not if you looked at the requirements for the Niantic contest, it was like you need a team of three to [00:22:30] five. I had one just me, I didn't know anyone else I could tap. And then they said five years of unity experience. I had five months it was just on paper. Everything was not checking a box. So there was a real moment before I sent in my application of I am just not qualified. I should just not do this 'cause I am not going to, this is gonna be an embarrassment. And it is actually my parents who told me you should apply. Just doesn't matter. so I did, and that's where [00:23:00] everything started was I put down two people. I lied. Lied and said my dad and my brother would do it with me without asking them, and then we got in and I had to tell them, sorry, you're legally obligated to do this with me now.
[00:23:17] Susan Gold: That's amazing.
[00:23:18] Jenny Xu: He was very, very lucky,
[00:23:19] Susan Gold: by the way, dad.
[00:23:22] I didn't know if you know this, but you're a game developer now.
[00:23:26] I love it.
[00:23:26] Jenny Xu: Yeah,
[00:23:27] Susan Gold: I do. I, but I [00:23:30] also love that you had the family support. That is something that is hard to put a price on, you know?
[00:23:38] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:39] Mm-hmm. Um,
[00:23:39] Susan Gold: so you win this contest, it's $300,000.
[00:23:43] It's a lot of money. You have your brother, you have your dad. How do you build a team? Where do you go?
[00:23:48] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:49] Susan Gold: How do you decide that combining fitness and games is really gonna be your focus and your niche?
[00:23:58] Jenny Xu: Yeah. [00:24:00] Uh, and I'd say to your previous question too, it was a moment of redemption for me, of building that confidence back up. and just felt like I, okay, maybe I, I didn't lose it. Maybe I do got something in me. And it was a moment. Of decision because it was a $300,000 cash prize with no strings attached, so it was just a blank check. And I could have just pocketed that like a ton of money to start out with as a 22-year-old, 21-year-old really at the time. but I think it was really [00:24:30] never a question for me to whether or not I should save this money or spend it on a studio because I just felt like finally I was allowed to do gaming again.
[00:24:40] this 300,000 was not my $300,000. It was $300,000 of a, a pre-seed round to try and invest in my own thing. And because we had won the contest with a running game, a game that combined my love of running. a social game. I [00:25:00] just thought might as well keep this going. Like we won the contest, we should see it through. and that's actually where the team building started because the moment I started thinking we're an official studio and me and my dad are coming up with the names, signing the docs. It dawned on me that if I really wanted to make a studio. I probably couldn't do what I wanted to do alone. the scale at which we wanted to make this first game, which turned into Run Legends was way too [00:25:30] large. I I would need voice actors, I would need artists, I would need, more engineers and I couldn't do all of it myself.
[00:25:36] it became the catalyst to go from lone Wolf. No one works with me. I'm just solo to, okay, I need to start hiring contractors. I need to start finding people to work with. If I don't know how to manage anyone, I'm still younger than anyone I'm hiring. And that whole journey of being a manager started there.
[00:25:56] Susan Gold: Yeah. Because you're learning while flying. you don't know [00:26:00] what you're supposed to be doing.
[00:26:01] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:01] Susan Gold: But you kind of have idea of what you wanna do.
[00:26:04] Jenny Xu: Yes. Yeah, yeah. All of that on the job learning. Yes.
[00:26:09] Susan Gold: So it's not just a side experiment anymore. you convince the world that you can do something like this. You create a, fitness battle game essentially.
[00:26:23] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:23] Susan Gold: Run Legends, Did you market test? How did you go about making something like [00:26:30] this when it's something that never existed before?
[00:26:33] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:26:34] Susan Gold: How do you go about doing that?
[00:26:37] Jenny Xu: Yeah. It was a lot of, um, if I look back, honestly, I do think it was selfish. A lot of the motivation of wanting like a running game to work since it was the two parts of my identity that I was trying to force together and think like, wouldn't it be great if I could work on the things I'm passionate the most in life on, in the form of a game where I'm uniquely kind of somebody [00:27:00] who can make this as a love letter to the things I love.
[00:27:03] So, Some market testing was done, but I would say I was actually quite naive and didn't really know what the point of that was at the time. I just really liked playing what we had. I would play it with my, at the time it was like ragtag team of me and five contractors, and it became me and 17 contractors, and then I think at our peak we were 22 and I was unable to manage everyone, but for some reason everyone was telling me this [00:27:30] was a good idea and that it was a fun game. And I was like, okay, then we should definitely make it. AndI had like side tangent was raised some money off this idea that we were doing something so new, innovative and different that it was worth putting. I mean now it's like $6 million into, but it was just this, this hope that. because I just was somebody who loved both of these things. There was going to be a market for this. [00:28:00] And I know now, even in going from Run Legends to Monster Walk the market testing, more validation, testing, beta testers, all this are good to have even sooner. But we got lucky. we made a game for ourselves for, for Run Legends and we tested it, but I'd say a little, later than in the life cycle than the games we make now. And it was just because we loved it and loved playing it ourselves.
[00:28:24] Susan Gold: Um, when you're trying to share your vision with other people, like if you were to [00:28:30] recruit someone for your team
[00:28:31] Jenny Xu: mm.
[00:28:31] Susan Gold: What are the things you're looking at?because that vision is really the, that main. Thing holding together your studio.
[00:28:41] Jenny Xu: Yeah. I, I do think and believe that everyone at the company who's joined has joined because of the mission. Just like what you said is they believe, and what I share is just the true passion I have for the stuff we do I really, truly love making [00:29:00] games and I also. Truly want to build games that are good for people, not just entertaining, I tell people, like my dream is getting emails from players that say that we've changed their life, And how nice would that be to get emails like this daily? And now we do, we get reviews like that all the time.
[00:29:21] But it just that thought of if one player out there changed their life because of something we created, can we do that at scale? [00:29:30] Can we make a new genre of game that like maybe these people have tried everything that exists and the only thing that works for them is Run Legends, is Monster Walk and we can do something special because we're game developers first, and uh, fitness, health enthusiasts second. versus the other way around. There's a lot of apps out there, but. Not enough games. So that's what I sell and people who really like that come on board and they're willing to be different and experiment [00:30:00] and go against the grain.
[00:30:03] Susan Gold: When you think about success and what that looks like and feels like for you beyond downloads or and revenue charts, how do you measure?
[00:30:13] Jenny Xu: It success to me is impact. it's seeing the number of steps. Like I think in the first two weeks of the game launching, there were like a billion steps taken, and it was just knowing that players taking [00:30:30] 14,000 steps daily on average, and it's like the reviews, the five stars that say. I never thought I'd be an athlete, but I feel like my young self, again, that's the success to me more so than the downloads. it's just the, the knowing that we've changed something andLike I've seen some decks from companies that reference us and that is also something that is success to me. So I'd say I'm [00:31:00] actually very much more motivated by the social impact, and like for example, Unity gave us an award for social impact, which was like our first impact award ever. And well, what featured on the App store is great, which we've gotten a few times, but it's just like so different to be awarded for the change you've made than for revenue downloads, numbers.
[00:31:22] Susan Gold: I love that feeling. I know that feeling.
[00:31:25] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:26] Susan Gold: Um, so you didn't get here all by [00:31:30] yourself, I mean, you were a lone star, but you had mentors and people
[00:31:34] Jenny Xu: mm-hmm.
[00:31:34] Susan Gold: That were really important to you and you referenced your parents and who else were your champions and your mentors and the people that help you along the way.
[00:31:46] Jenny Xu: Yeah. Truly too many to name. I would say like the first one, first two really were, um, Kate Edwards and Rachel Bernstein because, my first [00:32:00] gaming event ever was some. Very, very small conference in Sunnyvale where theythey just happened to have two people come in that were in gaming. And I, they just happened to also both be women and in my eyes, I just didn't know anyone like that. And I remember handing them a piece of paper where I printed out my business card, but it was like too large. It was as large as an index card. And I handed it to them. I was like, take my card, i'm like, I really wanna be you one [00:32:30] day. I wanna be in the industry. And probably the first thing I remember, hearing that was Mentorlike was Kate Edwards telling me Hey, you keep saying that you're an aspiring game developer, you can just own it. And she was like, you've already made hundreds of games, just say you are a game developer, not you're anaspiring one. And that still sticks to me to this day because I was always introducing myself as I want to do this in the future and just [00:33:00] stepping into and accepting that this is who I am is probably one of the more powerful switches in framing that I've, I've remembered. So, those are probably like my earliest memories of mentoring.
[00:33:13] Susan Gold: And now you actually are a mentor What do you see when you look at their faces and you are listening to them that you feel that, not that you just can contribute and help them with, but where are their [00:33:30] deficits? Where are you seeing things that, gosh, how can we help them?
[00:33:36] Jenny Xu: Yes. I see so much of my old self. Some of the people that I mentor and help, I'd say the biggest mentoring thing I do is the Dice Scholars program
[00:33:46] And it's four or five of us who help these like 12 students, early career professionals. And they are so bright eyed and so passionate and so excited to meet their [00:34:00] industry heroes.
[00:34:00] And I think now when I look at them, I see that same insecurity of I don't deserve to breathe the same air as this person or I, and I don't wanna waste their time.
[00:34:12] And I think when I look at those people, I'm just thinking of how I help. I wish I could just implant I was you not too long ago, honestly. And just that shared awkwardness the, you can't live their journey for them, but relating and saying [00:34:30] everyone goes through this phase and super normal to feel like you don't belong here, but I'm here and I'm a friendly face. If you want to just hide with me, I'll be here. I feel like that has gone further than saying I'll introduce you to this person. I'll help. You can read this book, you can watch this channel. I think just the friend is, what I found is really helpful for a lot of these, earlier career people who are not even feeling like they, they deserve to be in a room.
[00:34:58] Susan Gold: I, I always find that [00:35:00] so hard to, to digest myself, but. I even have on my door before I walk out the door. Don't forget, you're Susan fucking Gold. You know, because everyone has that feeling of insecurity at one moment or another in any given day.
[00:35:21] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:22] Susan Gold: Uh, the fact that you can see that in them and then you remember that in yourself and you know that [00:35:30] what's kind of going on in their heads.
[00:35:32] The one thing that you have had that I am not recognizing a lot in some of the people that I've been teaching was this lack of ambition and you have a tremendous amount of ambition, but you relationship with ambition is kinda changed from the time you were 12 to the time you were 19 to now at season 28.
[00:35:57] how do you look at that [00:36:00] difference over time?
[00:36:00] Jenny Xu: Yeah, that's such a good question. I think about this a lot I would say at 12, the ambition was. I found my community and I just want to make em' happy. I don't wanna let them down or I wanna make 'em laugh, smile, that I think was the purest intention and the purest ambition.
[00:36:18] And then I'd say at 19 it was, I really wanna make a studio. Like, I really want to be in gaming. I wanna be a CEO want to do this thing that I love [00:36:30] as long as I can, or I want to prove that I can do it. a lot of it was imposter syndrome. and the the need to prove that I was as good as my high school self. I did feel like I was living in my high school self shadow 'cause somehow when I was. Young. I had made so many great games and like from 19 onwards, Run Legends didn't make as much money or get as many downloads as even one of the games I made in high [00:37:00] school. So it was this need to prove myself.And now at 28 I actually feel like a lot of that has shifted again where I want to go back to the purity and the love of the craft where I feel that I've now established myself more as a mentor.
[00:37:16] but now my ambition is more around can I create a great team? Can I create team culture that produces great things? 'cause I myself have created great things on my own, but how much more fulfilling is it to do it [00:37:30] together with people you can celebrate with, and go through hard times with? like, how do I have fun making games, not needing to prove myself, not needing to best my high school self and with people instead of doing it alone in the dark, at a time when I have friends, I have everything, family, a partner, and it's like. I'm making games for the love of it now. Yeah,
[00:37:52] Susan Gold: that's so, uh, that's what I wish for everyone to do the thing that they love the most and be happy at it. What [00:38:00] habits or mindsets from running and coaching have helped you to manage your stress, your doubt, and that pressure of being a leader, of having to be on, of having to share ideas and vision?
[00:38:16] It's a lot.
[00:38:17] Jenny Xu: Mm, yes. Yes. I do think being an athlete was very helpful and also sometimes hurtful. But the most helpful mindset, I would say is definitely the pace yourself or treat it like a [00:38:30] marathon, not a sprint, because I know from running I guess like five or six marathons marathons hurt and they're very long. And by the end, I feel like I've been running for a lifetime, And knowing that I have to intentionally hold myself back at times at the start to make sure I have enough energy for the end. I've learned that I cannot be always on. I need to make space for myself to rest. Not [00:39:00] being busy all the time is not a sign of success. It's actually a way to burn yourself out. I do not work all the time. I have time for social friends. I get good sleep, I treat my body like an athlete does. Or I get seven to eight hours a night workout every day. Eat healthy. Because the work is hard and the work is long.
[00:39:22] And I would say the other thing is I, I have as an athlete always really pushed myself [00:39:30] mentally and just stayed in the suck. 'cause I know if I stay in the suck long enough, the runner's high will happen. I will find my rhythm even if it's painful for a bit. So I kind of remind myself that like day to day
[00:39:44] So I think about that a lot when I'm learning new things, going through new challenges, doing taxes for the company.
[00:39:51] Like all these are, are not fun. That's strange.
[00:39:55] Yeah.
[00:39:55] Susan Gold: But there's stuff that has to be done.
[00:39:56] Jenny Xu: yes.
[00:39:58] Susan Gold: When you start to think [00:40:00] the future.
[00:40:00] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:01] Susan Gold: And you know, you think five years from now, will we still be around 10 years from now?
[00:40:06] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:07] Susan Gold: When you think of that intersection of games, health, community, all of these things, do you still see yourself being at the forefront of that?
[00:40:18] Do you want to be, Or do you have plans for your, you know, total world domination?
[00:40:25] Jenny Xu: Yeah. Yeah. I, I honestly think what we [00:40:30] do with Talofa, like health, gaming, community, is just living who I am.
[00:40:36] it is just my identities combined and there is power in that integration that I don't think I would. I want to even remove a piece of it. So, it kind of feels like if there is one thing I've been put on the earth to do, it's the intersection and just continuing to find ways to innovate. 'Cause the definition of health games for good, all this is very vague. It's broad. There's so much to [00:41:00] explore. And I, I do think in five, 10 years, if you were to talk to me again, I would just love to still be seeing that I'm. Experimenting, innovating, doing stuff that's actually good for the world, good for people. whether it's mental health or physical health, it's a large spectrum, but it's still something that I'm passionate about enough to put all of myself into. 'cause like on the side I used to do fitness instruction, which is kind of like gamified fitness. So it's, I don't know [00:41:30] that I would be into world domination as much as just continuing to be creative and doing stuff that people look at and feel inspired by. I feel like I would still want to be at the forefront of Making new genres, new stuff, experimenting, new tech.So yeah, maybe more of the same. More of the same, but much wider audience and with much more learnings under the belt.
[00:41:55] Susan Gold: I only wish that for you. I really do. Now, if a young [00:42:00] developer were listening right now and they were thinking, I wanna build something in a completely new hybrid space, very similar to you.
[00:42:09] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:09] Susan Gold: what are some steps that you would take to tell them, Hey, listen, in your first year, think about this.
[00:42:18] Jenny Xu: Mm, yes. Yes. I definitely would tell them to start findinga, a mentor. I do think that was the first step I took and it wasn't [00:42:30] even mentors is what I realized. It's just friends and I used to go from saying, can you mentor me directly to people to just saying, let's catch up again, let's stay in touch. and just those natural organic relationships. some of those are still now Yeah, seven years strong and. I think those people kept me in the industry, at times when I wanted to leave.
[00:42:52] So I'd say first good support network and people who are close to you, but not too far ahead. [00:43:00] Like a founder who's maybe at series A, series B,or a peer who started their company at the same time. Sometimes those friends are the best to haveSo I would surround kind of with people like that, and then I have a very robust mental health support team, psychiatrist, therapist, life coach, executive coach, just like setting up those systems in place, for the moments I know will be tough. And then I found a lot of. Accountability and support from [00:43:30] joining accelerator programs or things like the Niantic contest that have structure.and it just like a X month program you pitch on this day and that practice of doing things on a deadline
[00:43:43] So that practice also helps. So it's three communities. It's like your mentors, your peers, your mental health support network, and then your your kind of structured, company accelerator. I think that's like how I would start my journey.
[00:43:58] Susan Gold: That is [00:44:00] fascinating. I would've definitely guessed the mentors and the peer network, but the rest is really good information to work with. Thank you. When you think now as we're doing your oral history at 28, and we're thinking of the Book of Life, you are right. What chapter are we on? Are we like still in the first act? Are we, where are we?
[00:44:28] Jenny Xu: That's, I, I don't think I've [00:44:30] ever been asked this.
[00:44:31] I do think I'm at the part where I am starting to live. So maybe I'm at the end of the first arc. Talofa is the first arc. It feels like I've been the last 28 years learning how to be human. A friend, a girlfriend,a daughter and a sister, and finally found a way of being that is just being myself. Being authentic after trying to be some version of me that I thought Linked In might [00:45:00] like or other people might find likable.
[00:45:03] So it's kind of the arc where I'm letting myself live a little, and not just see life as a race to success. that is really how I lived a lot of my early twenties was if I'm not the most successful person in my entire friend group, or I'm not the most successful person at my age in the industry, then I don't belong here.
[00:45:22] And that competitive thinking was just too much to handle at a certain point this year have like finally broken out [00:45:30] of that mental model through a lot of help and intervention, and now am finally every day happy and excited and curious I feel like a completely different person now where I don't have an agenda. I mean, I do have a plan, but I don't have something that I think if I don't achieve X I'm a failure. I feel more open to possibility of what may come now.
[00:45:55] Susan Gold: That's beautiful. Truly. I love that. And I'm so [00:46:00] happy for you. And I think, just hearing from you that, you've had a lot of years of experience built into, such a short amount of time that very few people can say that they've had that experience. If you were to leave listeners with one thought about your ambition and your resilience and finding your own way what would that be?
[00:46:28] Jenny Xu: Mm. I would [00:46:30] say ambition is not worth sacrificing yourself for. 'cause I thought I was resilient enough to kind of take anything, and the life of a founder was just about resilience. But resilience to the point of sacrificing everything. Mental health, physical health, sanity, morality, I was like, all goes out the door if you wanna be successful. And I've just learned you can be ambitious and be kind to [00:47:00] yourself and still Achieve your goals and I no longer put myself as the last priority. that's probably the one thought I'd leave people with is can you still prioritize yourself and your ambition?
[00:47:15] I do think slowing down, is sometimes the solution rather than going fast. ambition doesn't always look like late nights and at whatever cost it can look slow and [00:47:30] intentional. And my Chi Healer, they're really funny. Started going to Chi Healer this year. They told me, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. So that I've been mulling over for a while. that is what I leave people with.
[00:47:44] Susan Gold: I am going say that's what I've never heard before and I love it.
[00:47:48] Now that we're winding down, where can people find your work? Where can they connect with you, the games, and how do they follow you and what you're building?
[00:47:59] Jenny Xu: Mm-hmm. [00:48:00] Yeah, so Monster Walk and Run Legends are on Apple and Google Play stores, so they're free and you can play them anytime, we have a active discord in social media for, for the company. But I'd say for me personally, I'm on LinkedIn under my name, but best way to reach me is my email. So jenny@talofagames.com and I, I read all my emails, so definitely the best place. And I post a lot on LinkedIn about the journey, [00:48:30] so that's probably the best way to follow along.
[00:48:33] Susan Gold: Well, I really appreciate your time today. I've loved getting to know you, about researching your background, about seeing your tremendous success, and I really appreciate you sharing that personal side of that experience with us. Thank you, Jenny.
[00:48:52] Jenny Xu: Thank you, Susan.
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