Unresolved Trauma: Why We Repeat Painful Relationship Patterns and How to Begin Healing with Dr. Gillian O’Shea Brown

Different person. Same painful pattern. Why does it happen? Dr. Taz welcomes psychotherapist and complex trauma specialist Dr. Gillian O’Shea Brown to explore how unresolved experiences can shape our relationships, our reactions, and the beliefs we carry about ourselves.

Dr. Gill describes trauma as the past intruding on the present. Together, they discuss how childhood coping strategies can follow us into adulthood, why familiar dynamics can influence attraction, and what it can mean to recognize yourself as the fixer, the caretaker, or the person who puts their own needs last.

Dr. Taz shares her experience of taking responsibility for others’ emotions as the eldest child. Their conversation explores parentification, people-pleasing, emotionally unavailable partners, and the courage involved in expressing your needs.

They also introduce EMDR therapy, the importance of preparation and professional support, and Dr. Gill’s perspective on emotional and somatic healing.

Drawing from her book, Psyche’s Awakening, Dr. Gill brings together psychology and Greek mythology to explore self-compassion, psychological safety, and the possibility of choosing differently.

IN THIS EPISODE
• Recognizing when the past is influencing the present
• How painful experiences can shape core beliefs
• What EMDR therapy involves
• Childhood self-blame and adult coping patterns
• Repetition compulsion and familiar relationship dynamics
• Parentification and becoming “the fixer”
• People-pleasing, self-abandonment, and boundaries
• Noticing how relationships affect your sense of self
• The guest’s perspective on somatic healing
• Finding support and developing self-trust

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ABOUT DR. GILLIAN O'SHEA BROWN
Dr. Gillian O’Shea Brown is a psychotherapist, complex trauma specialist, and EMDRIA Approved Consultant. She is the author of Psyche’s Awakening: A Guide to Emotional and Somatic Healing Through the Wisdom of Greek Myth.

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Website and book information:
https://www.drgillianosheabrown.com/

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This episode is for educational purposes and does not replace individualized medical or mental health care.


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Host

Dr. Taz Bhatia MD

Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.

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[00:00:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Trauma is not just what happens to you, it's what you carry in the inside in the absence of a [00:00:05] compassionate witness. It's the aloneness that makes it a traumatic experience.
[00:00:09] Dr. Taz: [00:00:10] Interesting.
[00:00:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: My personal definition of trauma-
[00:00:13] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh ...
[00:00:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: is when the past intrudes [00:00:15] on the present.
[00:00:15] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:00:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And for some people, that is the memory they keep avoiding.[00:00:20]
[00:00:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It is the fear they live in. It is their shame-based cognition. Trauma always leaves behind [00:00:25] clues.
[00:00:25] Dr. Taz: Mm. My next guest, Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown, is originally [00:00:30] from Ireland, a New York-based psychotherapist, an NYU adjunct [00:00:35] professor, and an EMDR-approved consultant who [00:00:40] specializes in complex and relational trauma.
[00:00:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Traumatic memories are not metabolized. We [00:00:45] keep replaying the most painful part over and over again. If you had a huge lunch-
[00:00:49] Dr. Taz: [00:00:50] Right ...
[00:00:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and it just didn't metabolized and it kept repeating-
[00:00:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:00:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: traumatic memories are kinda [00:00:55] like that. They don't feel like they're archived in the back of your mind. They're fragmented and [00:01:00] very vivid, and they're not in the past.
[00:01:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It almost feels like you're actively reliving them. [00:01:05]
[00:01:05] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:01:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you haven't kind of established that it's in the past and I'm safe now. You're [00:01:10] actively reliving it.
[00:01:11] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming Dr. Gill to the [00:01:15] show as we explore how your psyche might be driving your [00:01:20] health, your family's health, and your relationships.
[00:01:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: This episode is sponsored by [00:01:25] HolPlus, a holistic health platform built around education, personalization, [00:01:30] and integrative care. HolPlus blends holistic,
[00:01:33] Dr. Taz: integrative, and functional [00:01:35] medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course this [00:01:40] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed.
[00:01:43] Dr. Taz: The platform also includes [00:01:45] holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your [00:01:50] body at the root level. HolPlus is holistic healthcare designed [00:01:55] for real life. Visit us at HolPlus.co to learn more about the [00:02:00] platform. Again, that's W-H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O.
[00:02:03] Dr. Taz: And Jill, welcome to the [00:02:05] show.
[00:02:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:02:08] Dr. Taz: Well, I'm really [00:02:10] excited to learn about your work and what you do. One of the things that has continued to [00:02:15] fascinate me, I've, you know, been in the space for a while. I've been a doctor for probably 30 [00:02:20] years, I've been in the integrative holistic space for 20, and the longer I practice and work with [00:02:25] people, you realize that it's not all about lab work and physical [00:02:30] symptoms and things we can touch and feel.
[00:02:32] Dr. Taz: There's a whole different element to health and healing, [00:02:35] and it's continued to fascinate me, right? Why does one person get better? Why does one [00:02:40] person not? Why is one person stuck? Why is somebody else not? What are the patterns in their [00:02:45] life that are keeping them in a particular situation? And so, again, I [00:02:50] haven't spent a ton of time exploring it, right?
[00:02:52] Dr. Taz: But, but I know that there's something [00:02:55] there, and I know that there are other forces driving us and determining our health and our relationships [00:03:00] and, you know, what we see in the exam room, what we see at work, what we see in our homes. [00:03:05] And so your work really fascinated me with kind of what you are doing with trauma and [00:03:10] recovery, understanding the psyche.
[00:03:12] Dr. Taz: So tell us a little bit about how you fell into [00:03:15] this and, you know, what you're hoping people will start to learn and understand.
[00:03:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Wow, [00:03:20] what an lovely opener. Um, I just wanna say as well, 30 years of practice [00:03:25] with a curious and compassionate heart, you can really see that you're looking for root causes.
[00:03:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:03:30]
[00:03:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're looking for the whole system and the story behind the story. [00:03:35] And, um, that kind of compassionate care is exactly what I wanted to bring into the [00:03:40] book. Um, I'd been working with trauma survivors, um, in one way or [00:03:45] another for about 15 years, and, uh, what I learned early on is that [00:03:50] the deepest pain that a lot of us encounter in life is the pain [00:03:55] within close relationships- Mm-hmm
[00:03:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: or so-called relational trauma, the bite that fits the [00:04:00] wound, the death by a thousand cuts that happens in relationships. And, [00:04:05] um, this led me to researching complex trauma and bringing out a [00:04:10] textbook with NYU, um, in 2021 called Healing Complex [00:04:15] PTSD: A Clinician's Guide.
[00:04:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but it's very anticlimactic- Uh-huh
[00:04:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: to bring out [00:04:20] a textbook- Yeah ... because your students are gonna F5 search term what they want.
[00:04:23] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:04:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Probably [00:04:25] you and your editor might be the only ones that read it.
[00:04:27] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:04:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, that was even before [00:04:30] AI.
[00:04:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:04:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um-
[00:04:31] Dr. Taz: And now you just AI it, like, "What does this book say?"
[00:04:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Exactly,
[00:04:32] Dr. Taz: yeah. You
[00:04:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: know? So. Yeah, tell me the answer, write my [00:04:35] essay.
[00:04:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. Um, so then I had my own kids and, um, I was at home with the [00:04:40] kids. And after food, after protection, after nurturance, the first thing [00:04:45] we all crave is stories.
[00:04:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Stories are how we connect. They're how we understand [00:04:50] ourselves and others. And as a fun maternity leave project, I was [00:04:55] trying to turn my textbook into almost like Aesop's Fables or fairy tales or [00:05:00] folklore, something that anyone could access.
[00:05:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because growing up in [00:05:05] Ireland, um, I was always told folklore, fables, and they [00:05:10] were never just stories. Interesting. There was always a philosophical meaning.
[00:05:13] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:05:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So the very first [00:05:15] chapter of the original textbook, which is attachment, who y- "Who are you in love and relationships?" [00:05:20] I thought, "What's the simplest way of, you know, translating this?"
[00:05:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And [00:05:25] I thought, "Hmm, the difference between narcissism versus self-love," 'cause people are so afraid, "If I love [00:05:30] myself, I'll be a narcissist."
[00:05:31] Dr. Taz: Right,
[00:05:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: right. And that's simply not true. Narcissists actually deeply [00:05:35] hate themselves.
[00:05:35] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:05:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But of course, the word narcissist Freud got from [00:05:40] the Greek myth Narcissus and Echo.
[00:05:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And every- I remember
[00:05:43] Dr. Taz: reading that, that
[00:05:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: story You remember that? [00:05:45] Yes,
[00:05:45] Dr. Taz: yeah. I- I used to love all the mythology and all
[00:05:47] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the stories, yeah, yeah It's a perfect codependent relationship- Yeah ... of [00:05:50] a narcissist and an empath- Yeah ... getting locked in together. That's where the diagnoses come from. [00:05:55] And Freud- Wow
[00:05:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and Carl Jung actually took a lot of Greek mythology, and a [00:06:00] lot of the footprints of psychology come from Greek myth.
[00:06:03] Dr. Taz: Hmm, [00:06:05] interesting. So where, so tell, tell us a little bit more how you developed [00:06:10] this idea out, and what were you uncovering [00:06:15] as you were telling the story?
[00:06:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It honestly felt like a really fun puzzle piece, um, [00:06:20] because the textbook was how I would personally work with a survivor of [00:06:25] complex trauma in, you know, the therapy room, which is first, you know, being open [00:06:30] to self-love, the concept of self-love, um, understanding your [00:06:35] psychological Achilles heel.
[00:06:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:06:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, and when a person goes into a therapy room, [00:06:40] it's almost like you're reading a book or watching a movie, and through the eyes of the hero, [00:06:45] through the eyes of the hero, you watch the story unfold. As they're telling it. And these, as they're telling it. [00:06:50] Okay. And they all have these core negative beliefs, but they, you don't come out of the womb with [00:06:55] those.
[00:06:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You learn them through painful life experiences.
[00:06:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And they're all attached to what are [00:07:00] called touchstone memories. Um, everybody has five to 10 memories in their life [00:07:05] responsible for all of the pain, and processing each one is like taking a log out of the [00:07:10] fire. The other thing about the way that we move through the world is that we are often reliving the [00:07:15] same version of pain over and over again, or what I call the bite that fits the wound.
[00:07:19] Dr. Taz: [00:07:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:07:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So I wanted to take 11 core psychological principles [00:07:25] that methodically bring you to a healing journey- And [00:07:30] interweave them with Greek myth because I feel like all of these Greek [00:07:35] mythological stories, you might think you don't know Greek myth, but then you read the book and you go, [00:07:40] "Aha, I remember now."
[00:07:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And from a place of familiarity, you then build on it [00:07:45] by learning something new about yourself and use a self-healing technique.
[00:07:49] Dr. Taz: [00:07:50] Wow. So 11, there are 11 core biological or [00:07:55] psychological hits. Do I have that right? Am I saying it correctly? Yeah, there's
[00:07:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: 11-
[00:07:59] Dr. Taz: Okay ...
[00:07:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: core [00:08:00] principles.
[00:08:00] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:08:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And they're all methodical, like steps of a staircase.
[00:08:04] Dr. Taz: And so if [00:08:05] you've experienced trauma- Mm-hmm ... or if you've been in that situation, do you end up [00:08:10] planting on one of these 11? Or can people have multiple patterns that [00:08:15] they start to absorb or start to, you know, uh, embrace as they move through life? [00:08:20] Tell us a little bit about what's happening.
[00:08:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's a very good question.
[00:08:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. My personal definition of trauma-
[00:08:24] Dr. Taz: [00:08:25] Uh-huh ...
[00:08:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: is when the past intrudes on the present.
[00:08:27] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:08:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And for some people, that is [00:08:30] their, the memory they keep avoiding. It is the fear they live in. [00:08:35] It is their shame-based cognition, their intrusive thoughts, their flashbacks. Trauma always leaves [00:08:40] behind clues.
[00:08:40] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:08:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The book was a way of demystifying trauma [00:08:45] healing for people that are too scared to go into the therapy room, or they just want all the [00:08:50] information, and they want the power to do it themselves. Yeah. 'Cause I, my philosophy [00:08:55] as a therapist-
[00:08:55] Dr. Taz: Okay ...
[00:08:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: has always been a little bit like when [00:09:00] Michelangelo carved the David, and he said, "The angel was always in the marble, and I carved [00:09:05] until I set it free."
[00:09:06] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:09:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I believe that under your fears, [00:09:10] traumas, defense mechanisms, your authentic self is there waiting to be [00:09:15] rediscovered.
[00:09:15] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:09:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And that there's a sleeping hero within all of us waiting- Hmm ... to be [00:09:20] reawoken. And the book is just an, a guide for you to become your [00:09:25] own healer.
[00:09:26] Dr. Taz: So walk us through that process because I meet so many people who have different [00:09:30] types of trauma, right?
[00:09:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And sometimes it's not, and I'd be [00:09:35] curious to see what you see about this, sometimes we think of trauma as this big event, right? Like something major [00:09:40] happened. Yeah. Like there was a divorce or there was abandonment or [00:09:45] whatever. Mm-hmm. It's like some major, major thing. But trauma can also be [00:09:50] something smaller that you are just locked into and you keep thinking about [00:09:55] over and over again, or it's just in your psyche over and over again.
[00:09:59] Dr. Taz: How does [00:10:00] somebody, how do we help people listening and watching, how do we help them identify, [00:10:05] you know, where they are positioning themselves today-
[00:10:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ...
[00:10:08] Dr. Taz: with trauma? [00:10:10]
[00:10:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, that's actually a beautiful question, and you give, you know, the example of the [00:10:15] big T trauma. Right. Like let's say a divorce where the rug gets pulled from under [00:10:20] you.
[00:10:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Right. You have an ego death. You don't know who you are, who your friends are, what you're gonna [00:10:25] do.
[00:10:25] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:10:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you just feel like you're free falling through life. And, um, one of the [00:10:30] mainframes I love to use in therapy is EMDR. Mm-hmm. Eye movement desensitization and [00:10:35] reprocessing. And in that type of therapy, there's something really kind of magical happens [00:10:40] in that you have the core memory you come in with, and let's say it is the [00:10:45] divorce, and there's a core negative belief, and maybe that's, "I'm alone.
[00:10:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: I'm not in [00:10:50] control. I'm not lovable." And you look at the intensity, and what happens in [00:10:55] EMDR is that you float, you involuntarily float back to an [00:11:00] earlier touchstone memory that was reminiscent of that time. You go way [00:11:05] back.
[00:11:05] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The prologue of the story always gives you all the information you could ever
[00:11:08] Dr. Taz: want.
[00:11:09] Dr. Taz: So before the incident [00:11:10] actually happened.
[00:11:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Exactly. Okay. That big T trauma is often the bite that fits the [00:11:15] wound, and there's an earlier memory behind the memory, and there's a part of you [00:11:20] that got stuck in that painful moment.
[00:11:22] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:11:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a part of you that still feels like a frightened [00:11:25] little child that's alone all over again.
[00:11:26] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:11:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, the mapping of these [00:11:30] memories and the compassionate witnessing of the self is, you know, one of [00:11:35] the biggest parts of trauma healing 'cause you can only outwardly accept the love that [00:11:40] you inwardly believe you deserve, and a lot of this is an inside job. There are [00:11:45] aspects of the past you haven't forgiven yourself for or compassionately [00:11:50] witnessed yourself in, and the book teaches really a manual of [00:11:55] self-love and self-forgiveness, you know, that inner alchemy of [00:12:00] turning wounds into wisdom, pain into purpose- Mm-hmm
[00:12:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and shame into self-forgiveness.
[00:12:03] Dr. Taz: And this is a process we can [00:12:05] do on our own?
[00:12:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. But there are some memories, and I do mention this in the book, where [00:12:10] if there's a lot of flashbacks, somatizations, intrusive thoughts, [00:12:15] it would be recommended to go through it with a certified EMDR therapist.
[00:12:19] Dr. Taz: [00:12:20] Mm-hmm.
[00:12:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, however, I think the book is at least a wonderful primer for you [00:12:25] getting to know yourself.
[00:12:26] Dr. Taz: Interesting. And I wanna get into the relational aspect [00:12:30] too, 'cause I know y- uh, the book focuses a lot on that, but before we do, help us understand [00:12:35] EMDR a little bit better because a lot of people, you know, will come in and ask questions. They wanna [00:12:40] know- Yeah ... what it is, how it works, how many sessions, who do they go to.
[00:12:43] Dr. Taz: Can you break that down for us a little [00:12:45] bit more? Absolutely.
[00:12:45] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So- So, um, EMDR was created by Francine Shapiro in [00:12:50] the 1980s And, um, I love the origin story of it, and it won't [00:12:55] be a whole cr- history lesson- Yeah ... but I'll give you a quick overview. It's
[00:12:57] Dr. Taz: interesting. I love it, yeah.
[00:12:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She was in NYU [00:13:00] studying a PhD in English lit- literature.
[00:13:02] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She got a cancer diagnosis, [00:13:05] and she was in a state of shock. She was just completely didn't feel [00:13:10] in control. And she went for a walk out in the countryside, [00:13:15] and she noticed that when she saccadically moved her eyes back and forth, there was [00:13:20] some kind of a correlation between that and desensitizing her [00:13:25] emotions.
[00:13:25] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:13:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So then she spent the next 10 years undertaking [00:13:30] qualitative research and study on emotional desensitization and saccadic [00:13:35] eye movements. However, in the end, what happened was that she developed [00:13:40] a therapeutic modality that took from a lot of other modalities. It took from, [00:13:45] um, you know, the power of our words, the eye movements.
[00:13:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was a [00:13:50] mind-body process that is essentially eight steps where you first [00:13:55] help someone to create safety in their body.
[00:13:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then [00:14:00] from there you identify positive resources, 'cause you would not go [00:14:05] mountain biking without knowing where the brakes are.
[00:14:06] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:14:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So you kind of install the positive feeling state [00:14:10] of feeling safe, of a warm nurturing figure, of [00:14:15] containment, which is something I really like, which is one memory at a time.
[00:14:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's like if you were [00:14:20] untangling a ball of necklaces.
[00:14:21] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:14:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You don't untangle all of them, you just do one at a time. Memories are [00:14:25] like that, 'cause you might get emotionally flooded. And then from there you choose the [00:14:30] lowest hanging fruit. And there's, um, a technique in the book that I use called mapping [00:14:35] out your psychological Achilles heel.
[00:14:36] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:14:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Which is basically that if you have a [00:14:40] core negative belief, and we all have them, and it could be, "I'm not in control, I'm not lovable, [00:14:45] um, I'm not good enough," you write down three to five times in your life when you felt this [00:14:50] way to a timeline, almost like the headlines of a newspaper.
[00:14:53] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:14:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And these are the [00:14:55] moments when that belief became formed. But when you're doing EMDR, you don't [00:15:00] start with the most traumatic and painful thing that ever happened to you. You start with a low-hanging [00:15:05] fruit, a seemingly innocuous memory. Something on that
[00:15:07] Dr. Taz: timeline.
[00:15:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Something small. Uh-huh. Something on the timeline that [00:15:10] feels manageable.
[00:15:11] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It feels like a nice starting point. And from there [00:15:15] you use the bilateral stimulation. So bilateral stimulation is [00:15:20] essentially the eyes m- moving back and forth, almost like, let's say, Dr. [00:15:25] Mesmer, the original hypnotist.
[00:15:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The eyes are moving back and forth. When this happens, the [00:15:30] left and right hemispheres of the brain are being stimulated.
[00:15:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're able to metabolize memories, [00:15:35] because tr- traumatic memories are not metabolized. We keep replaying the most [00:15:40] painful part over and over again.
[00:15:42] Dr. Taz: What do you mean by metabolized? I, like, literally see, like, [00:15:45] a pathway breaking something down. What do you mean by metabolized?
[00:15:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So if you had a huge [00:15:50] lunch-
[00:15:50] Dr. Taz: Right
[00:15:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: let's say you had a, a big pizza or a burrito, and it just didn't [00:15:55] metabolized and it kept repeating.
[00:15:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:15:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Traumatic memories are kinda like that. They [00:16:00] don't feel like they're archived in the back of your mind. They're fragmented and very vivid, [00:16:05] and they're not in the past. It almost feels like you're actively reliving them.
[00:16:08] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you [00:16:10] haven't kind of- Establish that it's in the past and I'm safe now. You're actively [00:16:15] reliving it. So we call this unmetabolized. Um, an example I used to [00:16:20] give, um, is that people often remember where they were during, let's say, 9/11-
[00:16:24] Dr. Taz: [00:16:25] Right ...
[00:16:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: or maybe when they realized how serious the pandemic was, but then you [00:16:30] won't remember what you had for breakfast last Tuesday.
[00:16:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Some things are front and center because [00:16:35] they're neurobiologically timestamped as a time when you didn't feel safe, and [00:16:40] other things are archived in the past. I'm safe now.
[00:16:42] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So these unmetabolized [00:16:45] memories are moments in your life when you didn't feel safe, so they're more vivid. They might come up as a [00:16:50] dream, a flashback, an intrusive thought, a shame-based belief.
[00:16:54] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:16:55] So, um, once you identify some of these memories and you [00:17:00] have, let's say, the five to 10 logs in the fire that the pain that you, that's [00:17:05] created in your life, you then start by processing them one at a time. Start with the lowest [00:17:10] hanging fruit. And in EMDR, you have one foot in the present, [00:17:15] one foot in the past, and you're compassionately witnessing your earlier self from a place of [00:17:20] safety, and you're often rescuing, healing, and affirming them in the way [00:17:25] they need it.
[00:17:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So for example, if you had a core negative belief of, "I'm not in [00:17:30] control"-
[00:17:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:17:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: maybe part of that is a divorce, but maybe also there's really [00:17:35] early memories- Right ... of feeling disconnected, and you start to go back into an early [00:17:40] touchstone memory And if you are compassionately witnessing your [00:17:45] earlier self, you know, through loving eyes, being with the par- with that [00:17:50] earlier part of you in the way they needed someone to be with them, you're creating a [00:17:55] nurturing experience.
[00:17:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because trauma is not just what happens to you, it's what you carry in the [00:18:00] inside in the absence of a compassionate witness.
[00:18:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:18:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's the aloneness [00:18:05] that makes it a traumatic experience.
[00:18:07] Dr. Taz: Interesting. If you're listening to [00:18:10] this and thinking, "I know something is off in my body, but I don't know [00:18:15] where to start," this is for you.
[00:18:17] Dr. Taz: That's why I created the Circle. [00:18:20] The Circle is my private community where I and my team focus on understanding your [00:18:25] body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real-life [00:18:30] guidance that you can actually use. This is about clarity and consistency and [00:18:35] support beyond the exam room and maybe outside of all the different [00:18:40] appointments and experts that you've been running around to.
[00:18:42] Dr. Taz: You can try the Circle with a one-month [00:18:45] trial using the promo code Podcast at [00:18:50] HolPlus.co/circle. Again, that's HolPlus, [00:18:55] HolPlus.co/circle. All right, let's jump back into the episode. It's interesting, too, in [00:19:00] research we know that trauma triggers inflammation, right? Mm-hmm. Like, it, it rise, it [00:19:05] raises inflammatory markers.
[00:19:06] Dr. Taz: It can be the precursor to so many different diseases from heart [00:19:10] disease to autoimmune disease, even to cancers as well.
[00:19:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes.
[00:19:13] Dr. Taz: Now, when you're going down, when you're [00:19:15] mapping these memories, like the psych- uh, what did you call it? The psychol- The [00:19:20] psychological Achilles heel. Psychological Achilles heel.
[00:19:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah.
[00:19:23] Dr. Taz: You know, are you [00:19:25] able to understand what that core negative belief is and then be able to pull that [00:19:30] out and start to work on it?
[00:19:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, you know, it's interesting. Sometimes the target [00:19:35] isn't an I am belief.
[00:19:36] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:19:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's kind of like you get this burning [00:19:40] sensation in your throat around certain people, places, and things.
[00:19:43] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's a [00:19:45] sensation. Sometimes it's an image. But I feel like the I am beliefs always come out when you're [00:19:50] witnessing someone's life story.
[00:19:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And as you said, um, when you're [00:19:55] chronically walking on eggshells for a very long time- Um, your body is [00:20:00] going to prioritize survival over replenishment, and [00:20:05] you're gonna become chronically inflamed.
[00:20:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the correlation between complex [00:20:10] trauma, chronic stress, and autoimmune diseases is very well evidenced. Right. [00:20:15] And it creates so much pain in the body, and what we're ultimately trying to do [00:20:20] is create safety in the body.
[00:20:21] Dr. Taz: Mm. Working with clients, [00:20:25] how long does a process like this take to help them turn, turn [00:20:30] this in a different direction, bring that response down, maybe even bring [00:20:35] inflammation markers down?
[00:20:36] Dr. Taz: What have you witnessed?
[00:20:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, I feel like the very beginning of EMDR, [00:20:40] you're mind mapping.
[00:20:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're creating safety in the body. Sometimes you get more [00:20:45] complex cases where you have aspects of dissociation or you have a lot of destructive [00:20:50] behaviors.
[00:20:50] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:20:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's, uh, they would obviously be a longer timeline.
[00:20:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:20:55] But if you don't have, um, let's say, destructive behaviors at play, [00:21:00] um, you can actually begin to see relief even in the first three months. [00:21:05] Wow. 'Cause within that time, you've resourced someone, [00:21:10] you have grounded them, you have ... They know what ... [00:21:15] They basically know the story they tell themselves about themselves, where it came from, what are the core [00:21:20] beliefs.
[00:21:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And at that point, they're maybe been able to process a few memories, compassionately [00:21:25] witness a few memories. And the lovely thing about EMDR is that the more [00:21:30] that you do it, the more there's a well-woven pathway. It's familiar, you know how it [00:21:35] goes, and every memory that you process is a little bit quicker than the, the [00:21:40] previous one.
[00:21:41] Dr. Taz: So when you're working on this, [00:21:45] do you have to do the eye movements at the same time? Is that a necessary part of EMDR [00:21:50] or not necessarily?
[00:21:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, so you can ... For bilateral [00:21:55] stimulation, it could be auditory, it could be a light bearer. Um, we originally used to [00:22:00] guide the eyes with the hands. Um, the eye movement is an essential [00:22:05] part.
[00:22:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It is an
[00:22:05] Dr. Taz: essential part. Okay.
[00:22:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but you may also have seen demonstrations of the butterfly hug with the eyes [00:22:10] closed. This is also going to create saccadic movement. So there's many ways of you [00:22:15] simulating this experience.
[00:22:16] Dr. Taz: So the saccadic movement is bringing [00:22:20] the emotional desensitization.
[00:22:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's making everything less sharp.
[00:22:24] Dr. Taz: [00:22:25] Okay.
[00:22:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So then you can observe it rather than absorb it. And when [00:22:30] you observe it from a calm, curious place with your compassionate witness, [00:22:35] you're able to look at it through curious eyes.
[00:22:39] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:22:40]
[00:22:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Often when we don't revisit memories, we, it, we keep the [00:22:45] childlike interpretation of it. And the thing about childhood memories that I think is [00:22:50] very important is that children often take over accountability for things.[00:22:55]
[00:22:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And there's a Scottish psychiatrist, uh, Ronald Fairbairn, and, uh, he [00:23:00] was very curious about children that had endured abuse or pain. Right. And, [00:23:05] um, they would all kind of blame themselves. And he thought, "Isn't this interesting?" They would kind of [00:23:10] say, "If I was more of this or less of this, it wouldn't be happening."
[00:23:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And he came up with a theory called the [00:23:15] moral defense against bad objects.
[00:23:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And basically, what this meant was that the child was [00:23:20] so powerless, you know, the bullies in the schoolyard, the antagonist of at home were to be [00:23:25] tolerated with no discernment for boundaries or, "This person's really toxic, I'm gonna take [00:23:30] a break."
[00:23:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So in order to create a fallacy of control, the child would take [00:23:35] accountability.
[00:23:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And this over accountability for a very long time is a perfect [00:23:40] recipe for toxic shame.
[00:23:41] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:23:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So when you're working with adults that have a lot of shame [00:23:45] and they don't feel good enough, we don't come out of the womb feeling this way.
[00:23:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We learn this through [00:23:50] painful life experiences. And often the childlike interpretation of the [00:23:55] event is what changes.
[00:23:56] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow.
[00:23:56] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You start to see it as the more emotionally intelligent, [00:24:00] evolved, compassionate adult you are today rather than the frightened little [00:24:05] child. But the problem too is that I like to actually, um, [00:24:10] liken defense mechanisms to inflammation.
[00:24:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: In the moment, [00:24:15] inflammation is great. It enhances blood flow- Right ... reduces the risk of infection. Right. But [00:24:20] long-term chronic inflammation is incredibly bad for you-
[00:24:22] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:24:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: as you well know.
[00:24:24] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:24:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Uh, [00:24:25] defense mechanisms are kind of the same. In the moment, that was the most sophisticated, [00:24:30] intelligent way that you could survive.
[00:24:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was what you needed to do. Maybe you suppressed [00:24:35] your needs in order to maintain proximity to an overwhelmed caregiver. [00:24:40] Maybe you learned to be the giver in relationships. Maybe you grew up in an [00:24:45] environment where subtlety went unnoticed- Mm-hmm ... so you had to be, go very loud very quickly. The [00:24:50] defense mechanisms that you learned were there to help you navigate the delicate [00:24:55] dance between protection versus connection.
[00:24:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:24:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: However, just like [00:25:00] inflammation, unchecked for a very long time, the very things that kept you safe in childhood [00:25:05] will actually go against you in your... It- the things that kept you safe in childhood [00:25:10] will absolutely go against you in adulthood.
[00:25:12] Dr. Taz: Wow. So let's go back to those 11 principles that you [00:25:15] mentioned.
[00:25:16] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. And then we can segue into if we have not done this [00:25:20] work-
[00:25:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ...
[00:25:21] Dr. Taz: how is that impacting our [00:25:25] relationships and our choices, our health, all of these other variables?
[00:25:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So [00:25:30] the, the 11 core principles of the book, you know, the first chapter is really about [00:25:35] self-love.
[00:25:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The difference between narcissism versus true self-love.
[00:25:39] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then from [00:25:40] there, we map out the psychological Achilles' heel and the associated memories. And [00:25:45] then we look at the erotic emotional map. And, uh- What's
[00:25:49] Dr. Taz: that? [00:25:50]
[00:25:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So the erotic emotional map is, it's an interesting pattern that [00:25:55] exists where people often feel like they meet the same kind of people with a different [00:26:00] face.
[00:26:00] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:26:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, there's a, there's a tool in [00:26:05] psychology called the adult attachment interview.
[00:26:07] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:26:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, when you're first getting to know [00:26:10] someone, you'll ask them to use three to five adjectives to describe the relationship they had with each parent [00:26:15] from, let's say, the ages of 5 to 12. You don't describe the parent, you describe the [00:26:20] relationship.
[00:26:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: An optimal relationship would be stable, predictable, reliable, trustworthy. [00:26:25] However, um, relationships are a complicated blend of vices and virtues, [00:26:30] so more often than not, there will be positive and negative aspects. The [00:26:35] erotic emotional map then asks you to describe your romantic relationships.
[00:26:39] Dr. Taz: [00:26:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:26:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Sometimes it's a one-way idealization or crush. It could be a past relationship. [00:26:45] And what people notice is that there are archetypal echoes, um, that [00:26:50] we may pine for the love of the, who, of a person who represents [00:26:55] the parent whose approval we sought the most.
[00:26:57] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:26:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or we are unconsciously seeking [00:27:00] out familiar dynamics.
[00:27:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, there's a theory by Freud that's 100 years [00:27:05] old to describe this dynamic. It's called repetition compulsion, and [00:27:10] basically what it says is that we unconsciously seek out the familiar. If [00:27:15] we were all in a circle and we threw our problems in the circle- Yeah ... and I said, "You can pick whatever [00:27:20] problems you want," you would probably pick your own again.
[00:27:23] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:27:23] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: They're familiar. [00:27:25] It's a pain you know how to tolerate. You know how it goes, and you have an unconscious [00:27:30] desire to have a reparation fantasy. If only I could seduce this [00:27:35] unavailable partner, I would deem the earlier parental pain null and void. [00:27:40] Um, we are often reliving a version of the past, [00:27:45] seeking out a corrective experience completely, um, below conscious [00:27:50] awareness.
[00:27:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But there's a quote from Carl Jung that I love, and he says, "Until you [00:27:55] make the unconscious conscious, it continues to rule your life, and you call it fate."
[00:27:59] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a [00:28:00] power in this awareness because when you have deep self-awareness, [00:28:05] you can operate not from classic conditioning, but from your own discernment.
[00:28:09] Dr. Taz: [00:28:10] Mm. Interesting. So narcissism versus [00:28:15] self-love.
[00:28:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:16] Dr. Taz: The erotic-
[00:28:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The psychological Achilles heel ... the erotic [00:28:20] map. The erotic map, and then we go into Medea, who I [00:28:25] used for the parent wound- Okay ... understanding that relationship. Pygmalion is, [00:28:30] um, it's really there for you to show the difference between boundaries [00:28:35] versus emotional walls And then after there, we, we have a discussion about fear.[00:28:40]
[00:28:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the opposing figures in Greek mythology that represent fear are Phobos, which [00:28:45] is where the word phobia came from.
[00:28:46] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:28:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It would make you terrified- Yeah ... if you saw Phobos.
[00:28:49] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:28:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:28:50] And Icarus, who represents reckless defiance. And how do we engage in [00:28:55] wise risking? How do we engage in balancing the duty of care with the dignity of risk?[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We also explore Medea to, um, represent body-based intrusion [00:29:05] trauma, and how, you know, in Greek myth, she had the perfect defense mechanism for a [00:29:10] survivor of, uh, sexual assault.
[00:29:12] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:29:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, and then [00:29:15] the latter end of the book, I won't lie, gets a little woo-woo.
[00:29:17] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:29:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, we use the [00:29:20] phoenix to talk about, you know, the hero's journey, the ego death, the rebirth, the [00:29:25] renaissance that happens.
[00:29:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Chiron, the wounded healer that was beloved by [00:29:30] Jung, and that represents the art of transmutation, sublimation. [00:29:35] And sublimation in psychology is very interesting. It's when you turn your psychological Achilles' heel into [00:29:40] your superpower.
[00:29:40] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:29:41] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So for example, um, Michael Phelps had ADHD, and he [00:29:45] would run around his house, so his parents put him in a swimming pool.
[00:29:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Uh, Arnold Schwarzenegger felt really [00:29:50] meek and weak with an abusive, alcoholic father, so he wanted to feel [00:29:55] powerful through repetitious practice.
[00:29:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, not just in, um, [00:30:00] wrestling, but then in acting, and then in real estate, and then in politics. [00:30:05] Sometimes the defense mechanism plays out in such big ways that you don't even [00:30:10] realize that this isn't your personality-
[00:30:12] Dr. Taz: Interesting
[00:30:12] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: this is your fear.
[00:30:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, [00:30:15] um, the fear chapter in the book is there for you to understand the primary motivations [00:30:20] behind your identity and what you're looking for. The book climaxes with the [00:30:25] story of Psyche and Eros, which is the goddess of the soul being [00:30:30] kissed by the god of love. She was not born the goddess of the soul.
[00:30:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: She became the goddess of the [00:30:35] soul through trials and tribulations, and this is where the word psychology came from. [00:30:40] Psyche means soul, ology is the study of. Psychology is the study of the [00:30:45] soul, and the story of Psyche and Eros is where the soul realigns [00:30:50] with love, the frequency of love. And for me, that is the highest form of healing.
[00:30:54] Dr. Taz: [00:30:55] Hmm. And how, so in a relationship-
[00:30:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm ...
[00:30:59] Dr. Taz: what's [00:31:00] happening in relationships? How does all this apply to relationships?
[00:31:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, going back to the erotic [00:31:05] emotional map-
[00:31:05] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh ...
[00:31:06] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and let's say the bite that fits the wound, um, [00:31:10] sometimes you feel, like, butterflies and chemistry with someone.
[00:31:14] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:31:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:31:15] But actually, it's not really compatibility.
[00:31:17] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's an unconscious trauma [00:31:20] reenactment because they represent the parent whose love or approval you sought the most. [00:31:25]
[00:31:25] Dr. Taz: And- Is it always coming from the parent? Is that, is that always kind of the wound for the most part?
[00:31:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: That's a good ... [00:31:30] Sometimes when you do this with people- Yeah ... there can be a teacher in there.
[00:31:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There can be a very [00:31:35] chronically invalidating environment with another adult, but it always begins in childhood.
[00:31:39] Dr. Taz: [00:31:40] Okay.
[00:31:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Your arousal template is a blend of your early childhood [00:31:45] experiences, your early sexual experiences, your attachment style. And the [00:31:50] prologue of the story, going back to the beginning, it always tells you everything you [00:31:55] would ever need to know.
[00:31:55] Dr. Taz: So how do these- Mm ... core principles apply to [00:32:00] relationships? How are they determining the partners we choose, how we [00:32:05] show up in the world? You know, what, what is the sort of physical manifestation of this in the world? [00:32:10]
[00:32:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's a really great question. I love that question. And, um, I guess [00:32:15] the core principles, in the beginning, it's about, you know, being open to self-love [00:32:20] because, um, the Greeks, you know, had many different names for love, but [00:32:25] philautia, which is self-love, was the foundational love.
[00:32:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It was impossible [00:32:30] to really love others without first loving yourself.
[00:32:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you can only connect with [00:32:35] others to the degree that you meet yourself. Then your psychological Achilles [00:32:40] heel, you know, pain, unresolved trauma comes up as a reaction rather than a [00:32:45] memory, and we all have these sensitive spots, these areas [00:32:50] that make us feel very activated.
[00:32:52] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the awareness of knowing your [00:32:55] Achilles heel, it allows you not just to care for yourself, but to also [00:33:00] give others a verbal manual of how you wanna be loved.
[00:33:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:33:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And in terms of [00:33:05] your most repeated pattern, I really believe that [00:33:10] within your most repeated pattern is the sole lesson you need the most.
[00:33:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you can [00:33:15] look at this reoccurring pain, "I can't believe I'm going through this again. Why do I [00:33:20] keep meeting the same person with a different face? I'm reliving the same [00:33:25] wound," when you take a step back and you look at it with curiosity and [00:33:30] openness, um, you can actually start to see, "What did I need?
[00:33:34] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: What could I do [00:33:35] differently?" And ultimately, you can ask- How do I, do I want [00:33:40] to repeat or evolve? And how can I break the pattern? Because [00:33:45] everything is always operating in a perfect pattern.
[00:33:48] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:33:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And when you know and [00:33:50] understand yourself, and you know what you would do differently or what you need more [00:33:55] of, you have power to break that pattern.
[00:33:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And the book is essentially a [00:34:00] guide to loving yourself, honoring yourself, but then also [00:34:05] connecting with discernment with people in a harmonious way. It doesn't [00:34:10] feel like self-abandonment or self-sacrifice. It feels like it's coming from a genuine and [00:34:15] sincere place.
[00:34:16] Dr. Taz: So give us some, like, maybe tactical examples of [00:34:20] some of this.
[00:34:20] Dr. Taz: Like for example, if you are able to identify, let's say I [00:34:25] do a map of my psychological Achilles heel.
[00:34:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah.
[00:34:29] Dr. Taz: And [00:34:30] in that map, I go back all the way to childhood, and I start to identify, I guess I would [00:34:35] call them micro moments- Mm-hmm, yeah ... that led up to some of the chaos that ensued over the [00:34:40] years, right?
[00:34:41] Dr. Taz: And as I identify those micro [00:34:45] movements, moments, not movements, uh, a core issue keeps coming up-
[00:34:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:34:50] Yeah,
[00:34:50] Dr. Taz: yeah ... over and over again. How do I take that core issue now to my [00:34:55] partner, if I'm in a relationship- Yeah ... or how do I take that core issue [00:35:00] and bring that awareness to my next relationship?
[00:35:03] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, if it's not too bold, [00:35:05] can I get just a little adjective with chaos?
[00:35:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Like
[00:35:09] Dr. Taz: something. An [00:35:10] adjective with chaos. Yeah. So familial dysfunction is the only way to [00:35:15] describe it. Like it was- Both of our pa- both of [00:35:20] our parents, and I'm sure all of us would say, are, were very emotionally dysregulated- Yeah ... but in very different [00:35:25] ways. One was-
[00:35:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah ...
[00:35:26] Dr. Taz: outwardly so, one was inwardly so, right?
[00:35:29] Dr. Taz: So [00:35:30] very different. And I think I, as the eldest, became the [00:35:35] fixer.
[00:35:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah.
[00:35:36] Dr. Taz: Right? Yeah. Or the parent- Yeah ... maybe even. Like, trying to make this person feel [00:35:40] okay, and this person feel okay, and then
[00:35:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: my
[00:35:42] Dr. Taz: younger siblings- And then in your romantic
[00:35:44] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: life, [00:35:45] did you do the same thing, or-
[00:35:46] Dr. Taz: Initially, I think. Okay. Not [00:35:50] ultimately, but initially, you know?
[00:35:51] Dr. Taz: So, so I was just like, look for my daughter, [00:35:55] who's 18. You know, like- Yeah ... if I tell her, "Let's map you-
[00:35:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah, yeah ...
[00:35:59] Dr. Taz: so that [00:36:00] you're aware of the traps, you know, that you might fall into. [00:36:05] Or you just need to educate the people around you,
[00:36:08] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you know?" Well, first, first off, I think this is a very [00:36:10] beautiful question, and I, I didn't think of it this way, but I love the [00:36:15] idea of you having the emotional intimacy to sit down and do it with an 18-year-old.
[00:36:19] Dr. Taz: [00:36:20] Yeah.
[00:36:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Because what a gift. What a gift to know yourself that deeply before you go out into the [00:36:25] world and start choosing people.
[00:36:26] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:36:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And to have the psychological safety. '[00:36:30]
[00:36:30] Dr. Taz: Cause I would say from 17 through 30, I [00:36:35] didn't choose correctly,
[00:36:37] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you know? You were... Were you choosing something familiar? [00:36:40] Like, "I'm the eldest daughter, I'm gonna caretake you"?
[00:36:42] Dr. Taz: Either a caretake or it's an absentee [00:36:45] person. Mm. Uh, you know what I mean? And I would-
[00:36:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Oh, you were vacillating between two archetypes, and [00:36:50] one, you were, um, probably parentify- you were parentified. And [00:36:55] if you're caring for someone in that way, you will also inevitably de-eroticize them- Mm-hmm ... 'cause it's a [00:37:00] different part of the brain.
[00:37:01] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then there was also this other, more elusive... It's almost like the erotic [00:37:05] equation. Mm. Attraction plus obstacle equals romance.
[00:37:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:37:08] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So you pendulated [00:37:10] between the two archetypes, which is very common.
[00:37:12] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But then something happened when you [00:37:15] turned 30.
[00:37:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: What happened?
[00:37:17] Dr. Taz: Well, I had a lot of alone time, and I did a lot of work on myself.
[00:37:19] Dr. Taz: [00:37:20] Okay. So
[00:37:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: yeah. So you had a cleansing process. Yeah. You went within. Yeah. You got to know [00:37:25] yourself, and then you had your renaissance, your rebirth.
[00:37:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:28] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And then you chose [00:37:30] differently. You did that spontaneously. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but that's, [00:37:35] I guess, what I'm hoping people will do with the mapping, is they will take a long look at themselves, [00:37:40] and they will not be afraid to be alone, and they will try to choose from their heart.[00:37:45]
[00:37:45] Dr. Taz: Mm. That takes a lot of courage. Yeah. So many people are afraid to be [00:37:50] alone or afraid of what that kind of honesty will do next, right?
[00:37:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: People are terrified of being [00:37:55] alone. However, I would argue that it's better to be with yourself, it can be a [00:38:00] luxurious experience to really be with yourself, than to be with the wrong person.
[00:38:04] Dr. Taz: [00:38:05] Mm.
[00:38:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So these emotionally volatile relationships are like roller [00:38:10] coasters, because you're going up and down, up and down. And just like a roller coaster, [00:38:15] you get off exactly where you got on. Your life has not really moved forward. You haven't been [00:38:20] able to do things, to take wise risking. And really being with yourself [00:38:25] and choosing psychological safety, choosing a [00:38:30] safe, predictable kind of love, is one of the kindest things you can do for yourself.
[00:38:34] Dr. Taz: [00:38:35] Mm.
[00:38:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Unfortunately, a lot of people have this unconscious draw [00:38:40] for corrective experience, and the more you go for this unpredictable [00:38:45] partner, the more you seek out to seduce and have a corrective experience with the [00:38:50] next.
[00:38:50] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:38:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But the erotic emotional map is there to kinda take all the [00:38:55] mystique out of it, and just kind of have you look at the archetypes and go, "This is [00:39:00] the two archetypes I keep pendulating back and forth from.
[00:39:04] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's not as [00:39:05] sexy and exciting now because it's all out in the open." Yeah. "I know what I'm doing. I know how it goes, [00:39:10] and I'm gonna choose something better."
[00:39:11] Dr. Taz: So, like, the butterflies, and the chemistry, [00:39:15] and the magic, and all the words that people use can actually [00:39:20] not be the right thing.
[00:39:22] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, I'm just gonna say, I think these butterflies [00:39:25] have a lot to answer for, and if you're still getting butterflies six or [00:39:30] nine months in, it's probably not chemistry.
[00:39:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's probably, um, an [00:39:35] unconscious trauma reenactment.
[00:39:37] Dr. Taz: Wow. So many people will be so [00:39:40] disappointed by that answer.
[00:39:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: I'm the Grinch of romance. I know, right? But I, I [00:39:45] want people to choose psychological safety, and choose themselves, and choose [00:39:50] self-awareness, and, and choose the kind of love that gives them the wings to fly and a [00:39:55] safe space to land.
[00:39:56] Dr. Taz: So is that... That was actually gonna be my next question, because you can [00:40:00] get lost in this world and start to over-evaluate, you know, what's going [00:40:05] on, and then start to be like, "Well, maybe my relationship isn't the right relationship," or, "Maybe I am in the wrong place." [00:40:10] What are signs that actually you, you know, that this work needs to be [00:40:15] done within a relationship?
[00:40:16] Dr. Taz: What are some of the common signs?
[00:40:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, okay, you've asked two [00:40:20] questions, and I'm gonna do the first one first- Okay ... which is, you know, you've done all the pattern [00:40:25] recognition, but you don't wanna get lost in that world. There is a, an exercise in the book that I [00:40:30] really like. It's in the social pruning chapter-
[00:40:32] Dr. Taz: Okay
[00:40:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: where you take an [00:40:35] inventory of all of your relationships.
[00:40:36] Dr. Taz: Ooh, that's a good one. That's a good [00:40:40] one.
[00:40:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you spend 45 minutes with someone, or three hours, you walk away and you just [00:40:45] write down three I am beliefs. And we as humans, when we're together, our, [00:40:50] our nervous systems synchronize, and we cross-pollinate.
[00:40:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:40:55] And, um, you're just doing three I am beliefs of the way a person made you feel [00:41:00] about yourself in their company. Mm-hmm. And there are some people you walk away from, and your face [00:41:05] is sore from smiling, and you were laughing, and you feel- Mm-hmm ... very interesting and funny and great. [00:41:10] And there are other people, you can't quite put your finger on it, but every time you meet them- Yep
[00:41:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you feel like a [00:41:15] smaller, meeker, more apologetic version of yourself.
[00:41:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:41:18] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I think taking the inventory [00:41:20] for a week or two-
[00:41:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:21] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: and we all have our phones with us all the time, if we're honest, and you [00:41:25] write down the three I am beliefs, and you can start to see, how do these people [00:41:30] impact the relationship I have with myself?
[00:41:32] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:41:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And you can hopefully start to choose [00:41:35] people where they are cultivating a relationship of harmony with yourself. '[00:41:40]
[00:41:40] Dr. Taz: Cause it's ultimately about harmony.
[00:41:42] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, it's about harmony. The longest relationship you'll have [00:41:45] in your life is the relationship you have with yourself.
[00:41:46] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:47] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And sometimes the person that smiles at you is [00:41:50] not your friend.
[00:41:51] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You know, sometimes you spend time with people, and [00:41:55] there's a physical attraction, but f- they're planting all of these [00:42:00] insecurities in you, and they're, there's systematic boundary violations, and you find yourself [00:42:05] self-abandoning and pathological a- accommodations. So I think taking the [00:42:10] inventory will let you know who is an energy giver and who's an energy taker.
[00:42:14] Dr. Taz: Oh, wow. I [00:42:15] like that. And then within the relationship itself, what are some flags [00:42:20] that you may not be, you may be... Oh, my God, your words. You may be [00:42:25] reenacting-
[00:42:26] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Unconsciously reenacting the past
[00:42:28] Dr. Taz: There you go.
[00:42:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:30] So here's the thing. Once you do all your mind mapping and your [00:42:35] pattern recognition, you might actually feel a sense of sadness [00:42:40] And you might go, "Oh my gosh, I did not know I married my mother."
[00:42:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:42:44] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or I [00:42:45] d- Or, "I didn't know I was reliving this pattern," you [00:42:50] know, the bite that fits the wound. Right. It's happening again. However, then you're [00:42:55] gonna ask yourself, "What do I need?" You will start to give yourse- give a verbal [00:43:00] manual of how you wanna be loved. From there, the fantasy is gone. It's not, "I'm [00:43:05] going to love them into being a mature, evolved person."
[00:43:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You're gonna ask for [00:43:10] what you need, and they will make an informed decision to meet you there.
[00:43:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Or [00:43:15] you will know that even with all the information, even with the [00:43:20] full awareness, they aren't accountable or they're not meeting you there.
[00:43:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:24] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:43:25] And, um, there's a lovely theory, Prochaska and DiClemente's Stages of Change [00:43:30] model.
[00:43:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. It's often used in terms of risk of re-offending, which I know sounds [00:43:35] really hardcore.
[00:43:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:43:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: But there are four things to determine if someone's [00:43:40] gonna re-offend. Accountability, I did it. Empathy, you're [00:43:45] not blaming the victim. You're actually putting yourself in the person's shoes and you're empathizing.[00:43:50]
[00:43:50] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: How are you going to, um... You know, you're acknowledging that you do need to make [00:43:55] changes, and then how are you gonna make the changes? So if you find these patterns in a close [00:44:00] relationship and the person is not accountable and empathic, then [00:44:05] you already know that there's 100% chance of re-offending.
[00:44:08] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:44:09] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So [00:44:10] unfortunately, the pattern recognition is one part of the story, and then the assertive [00:44:15] self-advocacy- Is the other part
[00:44:16] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the inventory, the learning to find your voice, [00:44:20] that's the next part, and that takes a lot of courage. Yes. And it takes time, and it's a, it's [00:44:25] a process.
[00:44:26] Dr. Taz: Wow. And so if someone is in this journey, who should they [00:44:30] work with or turn to if they need some support?
[00:44:33] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, obviously I'm a [00:44:35] huge advocate for therapy. I just think it's such a wonderful thing for people.[00:44:40]
[00:44:40] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: However, I love the idea of what you said earlier, that you [00:44:45] wanted to take little parts of this book and sit down with your daughter.
[00:44:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:44:48] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I love the [00:44:50] idea of people pairing off with a friend or a loved one and saying, "Let's, let's do this [00:44:55] together as an intimate exercise."
[00:44:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:44:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I would love the idea of people taking [00:45:00] this book and getting together in little groups and supporting each other, [00:45:05] and I think that if you have someone that really loves you and cares for you, [00:45:10] and you know that you can be yourself with them, um, that's enough.
[00:45:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: You know? Like, [00:45:15] you just need that one person you can be really true with. And, um, I feel very honored [00:45:20] that you would do that exercise with your daughter.
[00:45:22] Dr. Taz: Oh, I'm excited to, as she [00:45:25] enters this, right? Yeah. Maybe I can save her the, the 10 years of batting around [00:45:30] and trying to- Well,
[00:45:30] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: yeah ... you know? Wouldn't it,
[00:45:30] Dr. Taz: wouldn't it be great?
[00:45:31] Dr. Taz: Trying to, trying to figure this out. But I know her journey will [00:45:35] also, you know, be her own. Now, bringing it back to the individual-
[00:45:38] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Mm-hmm ...
[00:45:38] Dr. Taz: you know- [00:45:40] Where, what have you observed in terms of when you're working with people and you know that they [00:45:45] have unresolved trauma, something that's dominating their psyche?
[00:45:49] Dr. Taz: [00:45:50] What are you noticing that they say, or what do they feel, or where are they holding it in the body?
[00:45:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:45:55] So it's so interesting, the bridge between the body and the mind.
[00:45:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:58] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, [00:46:00] trauma always manifests in the body. The body feels the pain you don't allow yourself [00:46:05] to express. And different parts of the body hold different things.[00:46:10]
[00:46:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: For example, tightness in the throat is often the words you never got to say or the sensation of [00:46:15] choking back tears. You know, pain in the shoulders is a long history of [00:46:20] making yourself smaller- Mm ... and walking on eggshells. And often your core, your [00:46:25] dantian, your solar plexus, it's that area that gets activated when you don't feel in [00:46:30] control.
[00:46:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, in the book, what I try to guide people to do [00:46:35] is to tune in. Interoception is your ability to sense the [00:46:40] body, and the body's very powerful. If you've a reoccurring sensation around a [00:46:45] particular person, if you simply put your hand there and you kinda say, [00:46:50] "If this sensation had words, what would it be telling me?"
[00:46:53] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:46:53] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's very powerful what [00:46:55] can come out. And there's another technique where you don't just ask [00:47:00] the words, you ask if there's an image that goes with that sensation, if there is an [00:47:05] emotion, if you could visualize this. And often you [00:47:10] can personify your fear or your defense mechanism and interview it.[00:47:15]
[00:47:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: There's a lot of wisdom in the body. And, um, [00:47:20] underneath your fear, um, when you're chronically fearful for a very long [00:47:25] time, it's very hard to tune into the body, but once you start building a relationship with your body as [00:47:30] a tool of intuition-
[00:47:31] Dr. Taz: Hmm ...
[00:47:31] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: you're going to feel very guided.
[00:47:34] Dr. Taz: You'll know what to [00:47:35] do next.
[00:47:35] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah.
[00:47:36] Dr. Taz: Fascinating. You know, when, when we are doing [00:47:40] this type of work, is this what essentially somatic healing is? How would you [00:47:45] define somatic healing? Well- 'Cause I know a lot, a lot of people are asking about it nowadays, and [00:47:50] curious about it. So how would you define it?
[00:47:52] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Well, soma is, you know, it's the relationship [00:47:55] between the body and the mind.
[00:47:56] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, talking about [00:48:00] things is just one layer. Um, listening to the patterns of the body, [00:48:05] it's, it's gonna give you a lot of information. And humans, when they're in a state of [00:48:10] shock or trauma- Uh-huh ... they freeze. They tend to hold emotion in the [00:48:15] body, and repressed pain can linger in the body long after the [00:48:20] threat of harm has passed, and come up as a reaction rather than a memory.
[00:48:24] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:48:25]
[00:48:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And when you start to work with the body, and you start to give the sensations a voice, [00:48:30] and you start to give them some space, a lot can come out. You know, [00:48:35] very quickly you start to access the memories. You start to access the unmet needs. [00:48:40]
[00:48:40] Dr. Taz: That's so interesting. Like, and I'm curious too, like, people that have chronic neck pain, [00:48:45] people that have headaches, are there certain patterns that go with either of those?
[00:48:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:48:50] Well, it's interesting, um-
[00:48:52] Dr. Taz: Or jaw pain, right? Yeah. We see a lot of, like, TMJ [00:48:55] or jaw pain.
[00:48:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The jaw is a very primal place. I will say that even people that [00:49:00] go home from work, and they grab the chips or the pretzels, and they wanna gnash, gnash, gnash, it's the [00:49:05] feeling of dispelling anger-
[00:49:06] Dr. Taz: Oh ... and
[00:49:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: tension. Um, [00:49:10] but then like headaches and neck pain, it can be very unique for people in terms of [00:49:15] obviously there's an onset of stress and inflammation.
[00:49:19] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's [00:49:20] activating a vulnerable part, and you know that there's something gets activated every time you get [00:49:25] stressed, that's when you get your neck pain or you get your- Mm-hmm ... headache, and the body is [00:49:30] holding a lot of tension and pain. And, um, when we start to work with people [00:49:35] in terms of somatic discharge or getting to know the emotions behind the pain [00:49:40] via ego state work, it's often, you know, all of the times that you were made to [00:49:45] feel this way.
[00:49:46] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And if you don't put boundaries in place in your life, if you don't set [00:49:50] limits, if you don't say no to things, the body has a funny way of [00:49:55] putting boundaries in place for you.
[00:49:57] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:49:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And I had a young female client [00:50:00] who was cleared by neurology with headaches, and, um, [00:50:05] they sent her to me and they said, "Okay, can you do somatic healing on her?"[00:50:10]
[00:50:10] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And it was very simple. W- she was in a relaxed state, and I kind [00:50:15] of asked her under this relaxed state, "If this head tension [00:50:20] was your friend, how would it be trying to serve you?" And she said that, "Whenever I get [00:50:25] this headache," she was very young, "everyone in the house gets very quiet. [00:50:30] People are kinder to each other.
[00:50:32] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: We pull the curtains. We [00:50:35] simmer down, we relax, and it would probably want me to feel safe." [00:50:40] And when we started to, you know, be very open about the feeling, behind every [00:50:45] behavior is a feeling, and behind every feeling is a need, and understanding that deeper need is the [00:50:50] gateway to you b- having a more aligned life, that she was looking for a more zen, chilled environment-
[00:50:54] Dr. Taz: [00:50:55] Mm
[00:50:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: the headaches kind of reduced, and that's often the way in [00:51:00] big and small ways for people. You know, you keep getting this intense sciatic [00:51:05] pain until you leave that toxic job. It's not that the [00:51:10] pain wasn't real, but the chronic inflammation of walking on eggshells in an [00:51:15] environment of fear and trepidation, it was activating all the vulnerable parts of your body.
[00:51:19] Dr. Taz: [00:51:20] Mm.
[00:51:20] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: So it's not ... I know that it is really, um, you know, [00:51:25] shaming when people say it's psychosomatic.
[00:51:27] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:51:27] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Almost like it's an insult.
[00:51:29] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:51:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:51:30] But the feeling of walking on eggshells for a very, very long time, it's gonna make [00:51:35] you chronically inflamed. It's going to make the body prioritize survival over [00:51:40] replenishment, and that's where the vulnerable parts of your body are gonna start to [00:51:45] feel it first, and then deeper metabolic changes will happen that could [00:51:50] obviously activate, you know, you know, autoimmunes or other, you know, very serious [00:51:55] diagnoses.
[00:51:55] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The body is always telling a story, and if you're able to, [00:52:00] you know, calm the mind to listen to it, it's a gateway to tuning into your [00:52:05] intuition. Your intuition is a quiet knowing. The trauma brain is a frantic [00:52:10] fear. It's like a lot of racing, cyclical thoughts.
[00:52:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:13] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Um, but [00:52:15] actually creating a relationship with your body where it's your friend rather than your foe, [00:52:20] um, where you're inviting it to give, let you know what it needs, what to let go of, what [00:52:25] to bring in, it, it can enhance your power as a person.
[00:52:29] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It can [00:52:30] make you feel more safe in the body, embodied, y- intuitive-
[00:52:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:52:34] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: [00:52:35] calm, curious. And when you're psychologically safe, that's when you can start to be [00:52:40] playful again. That's where you can start to take risks again. That's when you can start to [00:52:45] challenge yourself again. That's when you can start to stop living in fear and live in faith.
[00:52:49] Dr. Taz: [00:52:50] Wow. Well, this has been so enlightening, and I really appreciate you taking [00:52:55] time out to help us understand this. I f- I find it all so fascinating. [00:53:00] What are just a couple of things you really want our viewer or listener to walk away [00:53:05] with?
[00:53:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Thank you so much. I loved this conversation with you. Um, [00:53:10] the key things I'd like people to walk away with is, one, not to be afraid to [00:53:15] listen within- You know, with that reoccurring thought, that reoccurring [00:53:20] sensation, to kinda ask, "Where did that come from, and what did I need at that time?"
[00:53:24] Dr. Taz: [00:53:25] Mm-hmm.
[00:53:25] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: The other is that no matter how much of, how many years of your life [00:53:30] have been lost to pain, shame, or trauma, or self-sabotage, there is [00:53:35] always a way back. And, you know, that quote again that I love, "The [00:53:40] angel was always in the marble, and I carved until I set it free." I love that, yeah. Within you, there [00:53:45] is a deep inner wisdom of you knowing exactly what you need- Wow
[00:53:49] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: in order [00:53:50] to have an aligned life, and to trust yourself.
[00:53:52] Dr. Taz: Mm. I love it. Well, your book is [00:53:55] out when, or is it already out?
[00:53:57] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: It's September 22nd. Okay. Um, on [00:54:00] audio and in hard copy.
[00:54:02] Dr. Taz: Psyche's Awakening is the name of the book, [00:54:05] correct?
[00:54:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. There we go. Um, and I'm so excited for people to read it, and, [00:54:10] um, hopefully, you know, do exercises with close friends.
[00:54:14] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And [00:54:15] also reignite, I think we all got a little bit of a Greek myth obsession this summer. Yeah, yeah. But it's [00:54:20] not just an obsession, it's a lifestyle. And I think it's a lovely way to awaken your soul, [00:54:25] is to go back to the ancient stories.
[00:54:27] Dr. Taz: And remind the, remind ourselves of the lessons they were [00:54:30] trying to teach us, essentially.
[00:54:31] Dr. Taz: Exactly. You know. Well, final question: What makes you [00:54:35] whole?
[00:54:36] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Wow. Um, that's a great question. [00:54:40] Honestly, um, o- one of the things that makes me whole is when I [00:54:45] think of my inner child and I think about her dreams. And my [00:54:50] dream as an eight-year-old was to write a book that would feel like a warm hug.
[00:54:53] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:54:54] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, [00:54:55] um, that would take away pain and sorrow.
[00:54:58] Dr. Taz: You had this thought at eight?
[00:54:59] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yes. [00:55:00] I know. I obviously was a very troubled eight-year-old. Wow. 'Cause that's a very strange childhood
[00:55:04] Dr. Taz: dream. [00:55:05] That's
[00:55:05] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: amazing. That is amazing. And I feel like this book is me doing that.
[00:55:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:55:07] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: And, um, I, I [00:55:10] tried to think about, you know, my younger self, and I try to think about, honestly, she would be pretty [00:55:15] happy now.
[00:55:15] Dr. Gillian O'Shea Brown: Yeah. And, and luckily for me, I have two little girls, [00:55:20] and a lot of my inner child comes out with them. Yeah. And it just makes me feel very [00:55:25] whole.
[00:55:25] Dr. Taz: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking time out today to [00:55:30] share your amazing work with us, help us understand trauma a little bit better, [00:55:35] EMDR, somatic healing, how it connects back to relationships, and the work that we all [00:55:40] still need to do.
[00:55:41] Dr. Taz: So I appreciate it, and for everyone else watching and listening, [00:55:45] remember we post new episodes every week. Don't forget to subscribe, and maybe [00:55:50] this can actually be something you do with your family, your loved ones, in terms of [00:55:55] understanding where the wounds began and how they might be impacting you and your health [00:56:00] today.
[00:56:00] Dr. Taz: All right, I'll see you guys next time. Before you go, take a second to reflect on [00:56:05] what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick review wherever you're [00:56:10] listening. It really helps other people discover HolPlus and start their own healing [00:56:15] journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr.
[00:56:18] Dr. Taz: Taz MD. I love [00:56:20] hearing how these episodes are supporting you.