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Welcome to Going Indie with Antoine van der Lee, the podcast that dives deep into the world of independent creators and developers. Join Antoine as he chats with indie creators from around the globe, sharing their stories, insights, and the challenges they’ve overcome. From turning side projects into successful businesses to breaking free from the 9-to-5 grind, each episode uncovers the habits, strategies, and tools that help these creators thrive on their own terms.
Whether you’re dreaming of independence, looking to refine your indie career, or seeking inspiration to take the leap, this podcast delivers real-world advice and practical tips. Each month, Antoine welcomes a new guest to discuss their journey, offering you a valuable peek into the mindset of those who’ve successfully gone indie.
Tune in to hear from experienced creators and discover how you can make the leap to independence, freedom, and business success.
Ready to turn your passion into independence? Follow Antoine's course, "From Side Project to Going Indie", at going-indie.com.
[00:00:00] Klemens Strasser: They introduced the design awards, um, what they are and stuff like that. And we, we have a special section this year, which is for student winners. Um, here's the first one. And then suddenly my picture was up there.
[00:00:13] Antoine van der Lee: Welcome to the next episode of the Going Indie podcast, the podcast that dives deep into the world of independent creators and developers.
In this episode, I'm joined by Clemens Strasser, an Indie developer with an inspiring journey. From winning an Apple design award as a student to balancing multiple apps and going fully Indie. Clayman shares how he took the leap, prioritize his accessibility and how he went Indie while his apps didn't earn enough to pay the bills yet.
Packed with insights and advice, this episode is one you won't want to miss. Welcome Clemens. Hi. You're the first official guest of the podcast. Yeah. I'm
[00:00:53] Klemens Strasser: very honored to be here.
[00:00:54] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Uh, I think it's, it's funny to explain to the, to the listeners as well. Like, The first two episodes were actually guest lectures of my course.
And I then realized, well, this, this might actually be something interesting to turn into a podcast. Um, but this is in Amsterdam and I wanted to keep the quality high and I want indie developers that are. all over the globe. So the challenge there is, you know, get people in that are from anywhere. Yeah. To Amsterdam.
Um, so it happens that you are here in Amsterdam. Why are you here
[00:01:26] Klemens Strasser: in Amsterdam? I'm here because my girlfriend was running the marathon and we just wanted to spend a few days here. Yeah. In this beautiful city. So. And I kidnapped
[00:01:35] Antoine van der Lee: you from the girlfriend.
[00:01:36] Klemens Strasser: Yeah.
[00:01:38] Antoine van der Lee: That's a great start. Um, But what I also didn't do is explain what this podcast is about.
Um, so just a brief introduction is that, you know, we will inspire, uh, potential future indie developers, but maybe also those that are already indie and share them learnings that, that you gained, um, or maybe learnings from challenges that you had, uh, yeah, with this podcast, I really hope to, you know, help people that want to go indie to eventually go indie.
Um, Yeah, let's just get the ball rolling. Who are you, Clemens? Can you explain?
[00:02:07] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, I'm, uh, from Austria. I do indie apps or iOS development since now close to 10 years or 10 years. That's about it. I started more with game development. I, but I always used Uh, native frameworks, um, for multiple reasons, um, we can get into that a bit later, but I, um, always wanted to become an iOS developer, but use games as a medium to, to learn things about iOS development and, uh, released my first app on 1st December in 2014.
And since then released a few of those and, uh, worked at two companies on iOS stuff. And now went indie a week ago.
[00:02:57] Antoine van der Lee: So a week ago. Yes. Isn't that a great time? Yeah, it's a perfect time. Yeah. And you're in Amsterdam. Yeah. Meant to be almost isn't. Yeah. Um, yeah. And interesting. You worked for a company. Um, it's quite a known app that you worked on, isn't it?
Yes.
[00:03:10] Klemens Strasser: I worked on fantastical. So I worked for flexi bits on fantastical for a couple of years. And then also car top. Um, But most focus was on Fantastical. And yeah, that was a very interesting thing because I, before I even started developing apps at all, I didn't know how to do apps in any means. I had my iPod Touch and I, um, I downloaded a bunch of games back then and also apps that just, uh, were featured on, I don't know, Call of Mech or 9to5Mech.
And one of those was Fantastical. And I I was in school, I didn't need a calendar app back then because my schedule was pretty fixed from school. So I just downloaded this and other apps to get a feeling about apps and to learn about them. And I, um, I was very inspired by the things that Fantastical did back then, but I would have never imagined that I actually gonna work for that app.
So that was like kind of interesting thing for me. Being a boy in school who loves playing around with some random apps and then actually getting to work on one of those.
[00:04:27] Antoine van der Lee: That's pretty fascinating, isn't it? In a way, this is for those that are maybe looking for a job. You thought you weren't able to get that job and you still got it?
Was it like, didn't you believe in your potential? Or because you still made it, made the leap to, you know, apply and go for it.
[00:04:44] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, the thing is, I think back then, especially in Austria, there was not a lot of things going on in iOS development. So we had a few companies that are still going strong today, but I just didn't know them and I was in school and the focus in programming in school wasn't on mobile development at all.
So, So I just thought, um, doing apps is something so far out of reach that I will just never going to do that. Yeah. And, um, but I was interesting in it, interested in it. And I started to learn Objective C and tried to, to just get into that field. And yeah, by happy accidents, I really got there. The two to work for one of those companies,
[00:05:32] Antoine van der Lee: which is amazing, right?
Like the learnings you get from such company, especially with fantastical, which gained quite some presence, you know, also in the app store. I think many, many of the listeners will probably know it. You can all bring that back to your definitely on apps.
[00:05:46] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the things that especially Kent, the, the co founder of fantastical and who are flexibits and, um, like the, the, big technical brain behind Fantastical.
The things that he learned me over the years are still things that I apply today and that I, I just couldn't have learned anywhere else, I think.
[00:06:11] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And this is actually an interesting topic that I always like to Explore, right? Like, did you, because you also have a few personal side projects that we will get back to in a bit, but did you purposely reached out to like the marketing department or the designers and the company to kind of like game learnings that you could almost like, you know, reuse for your own projects?
[00:06:36] Klemens Strasser: Uh, not purposefully, but I mean, Flexibits is still a small company, but back then it was an even smaller company. Um, I can't say for certain how many people we were, but I think it was below 10. Right. And so, uh, especially when we launched, um, uh, fantastical three, we, um, We switched to, to a subscription model back then and we got a lot of, um, and completely redesigned the app and did a long lot of things a bit differently and got a lot of support emails over the la uh, over the first couple of days.
And I wasn't never hired to be a support person, but because of the volume of support emails that we got, everybody had to Yeah. Jump in and help with doing support for Yeah, that. that period of time. So, um, getting a feeling for that, um, was really helpful. I never intentionally wanted to do that, but it, I had to do it.
And it really helped me to, to learn a few things. And also, uh, by happy accident, also the, the, the designer of Fantastical lives in the exact same city that I'm from, which is not, uh, a very big city. So it's, it's the second biggest city in Austria. It's Graz, but it's, uh, nobody knows Graz, uh, internationally.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We, we, we recently got, um, better in, in playing soccer. So that's, that's why people start to, to notice city, but usually Graz is not a big player internationally. And, um, I, when I started to work for, um, for Flexibits and for Fantastical, I didn't even know that he was living in the same city.
And I think I only met him once there. Um, but I met him on more often on, uh, on retreats that we had in as a, uh, as a full company then, um, in the actual city of Graz. But, um, because we were in the same time zone, we collaborated, uh, lots of times. And also that collaboration helped me a lot to, to just learn how, uh, designer things about things and how to interact with a designer and stuff like that.
So,
[00:09:00] Antoine van der Lee: yeah, just, just because of these things, I would almost say like never go indie. without that experience. And I know plenty of examples where it went well, but you know, it's just so valuable to have. Knowledgeable people around you where you can work with, you know, or, and, and that's what you can do when you go Indy as well, right?
Yeah. Like, you know, match up with those designers that might also go Indy. Yeah, definitely. And see if you can work together with them. Maybe help them build an app or, you know, gaining that experience from somebody that's really experienced in that field Yeah. Is so powerful, isn't it? And,
[00:09:33] Klemens Strasser: and it also gives you a bit of a sense of.
That's just because you're the programmer. That's not the, not only a big chunk of the app, it gives, gives you a better feeling of how much different things it takes to really make a great app and to, to learn the different disciplines and the things that are involved in making an app.
[00:09:54] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure we'll get back to this later as well.
I, I want to 2015, isn't it? When you did the scholarship and. When I, when I looked up your, your profile and I mean, it's already special if you can mention Apple Design Award once. And I think I saw multiple times, uh, same with Schoolish Chip. Yeah. And you mentioned 10 years that you're in this field. Yeah.
It's quite a list already. Yeah. That, that's quite impressive. Um, Can you take us back to the moment where you first got in touch with Apple and the ball started to roll?
[00:10:27] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. I mean, the, the, The very first, um, app that I released was in, in December of, uh, 2014, which was elementary minute, which was a very simple quiz app.
And I, um, first wanted to, to build, like I had the initial idea for that quiz, quiz app for the Apple watch. Um, because it's just a simple thing where you get a statement and it's either right or wrong and you click either a checkmark button or an X button if it's. depending on if you think it's right or wrong and you have a couple of those questions and have to answer as many as possible within a minute.
And, um, I thought such a simple, small game would be fun on an Apple Watch, which wasn't announced back then when I started developing for this app. There were rumors and everybody knew that this thing is coming. Similar with Apple Vision Pro. Everybody knew that sometime Apple Vision Pro will come up.
And, um, around that time, everybody knew Apple, Apple Watch is going to be a thing, but we didn't know the specifics. And I thought, um, I want to build that now. I'm just going to build it for the iPhone. To be ready to have a new core when the Apple Watch is coming out and then I released it in December. I think the Apple Watch was either officially announced, I think officially announced in February, um, in 2015 and then came out in April, something around those lines.
And. Um, I was one of the, the first apps on the Apple watch I was, I think there were three games or something like that because nobody's playing a game actually on the Apple watch. I also learned that after releasing it, um, because it's just even holding your hand like this for a minute is like tiring and, but it's, uh, it was still a fun thing to, to be on the Apple watch very early on.
And I think, uh, doing that got me, got the attention from Apple to myself. So, um, first I only had a few downloads, like very, very little ones, but I was still so excited that I mean, people from all over the world, not even from France. If somebody from Austria downloaded the app, I probably knew that that's a friend who's just supporting me.
But if you then see somebody from China, from the US or other places download your app, and you don't know any people from those places, then you, you just know somebody else is trying out your app. And that's, you know, such an amazing feeling and such a amazing thing, especially me back, being back then at university and having not a lot of experience in, uh, in total.
So, um, yeah, I, I, the, the app had very little traction at first and then the Apple Watch came out and I got some press also, uh, in, in Austria and, um, got a few more downloads and then there was a featuring with, um, 20 people under 20. Um, that Apple did, and that was my first featuring where I was, uh, I didn't even know that I'm going to be in this list.
And then I, one day I just opened up the, the app store and then my app was listed in there with some other amazing apps. And that was like a super nice feeling. So that was the very first thing where I got in touch with Apple. And then, um, I, I thought I'd just give it a shot and I tried to apply for a scholarship.
So I, um, I just read about that on some website and I applied for it and then I actually got that scholarship, which was, uh, super amazing, which got me the possibility to, um, fly to to the U. S. Back then, uh, WWDC was still in San Francisco.
[00:14:34] Antoine van der Lee: Good times.
[00:14:34] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, good times. Uh, and I, I got to, to experience WWDC for the first time.
I got to fly alone for the first time. I got to fly the first time internationally, so it was a very exciting thing. Yeah. And, um, like a week before, um, WWDC, uh, some person reached out to me and I first got, I got that email and I first thought it was a spam email because it was written very weirdly. Okay.
But it's, um, so it was hi, um, do you have a minute? Uh, we, we need to talk. Here's my number. Uh, get back to me and I, I just thought very weird, uh, but it said Apple there and then I looked up his name on LinkedIn and I knew, yeah, that's a proper,
[00:15:28] Antoine van der Lee: should I even call? Yeah, should I even
[00:15:30] Klemens Strasser: call was, was the, uh, the, the first reaction to that.
But then I, I called him. And, uh, we, we talked a bit and he, he said, yeah, we saw your app and we, we loved elementary minute and, um, we want to do a special featuring for you. And if I can send them some marketing material and the script of, um, how to, to showcase the main features of the app very quickly.
And I, Uh, had to do all and also make a few photographs of my working space and my working space was a table under my bed. And they called it
[00:16:08] Antoine van der Lee: special featuring.
[00:16:09] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, and they called it a special featuring that is going to happen in the future somewhere. They didn't say anything about. No. Did you know Apple design awards or anything like that existed?
I knew that they existed, but I just didn't think that. You didn't dare to. No, I didn't dare to dream that this is going to be for that thing. I, I, it never came to my, to my mind for one second because it was just so out there.
[00:16:34] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. You just, just flown to San Francisco for the first time. Yeah.
[00:16:39] Klemens Strasser: So I, I, um, did do all those things and send it to, to them.
And, um, Then, a week later, arrived at San Francisco, arrived at WWDC. This was a week before WWDC? Yeah, a week before WWDC. Okay. He reached out to me and asked me about all those things, or tops 10 days, but it's about a week. So, uh, very, very close. And then, um, the, the person that reached out to me said that he wants to meet up and if I can, if we can meet up right after the, the main conference or the main keynote, and then, uh, like five minutes before we should have met, he said, no, something, um, Did happen.
He can't make it, but I should go to the state of the union. Then I went to the state of the union and he said, we're going to meet, uh, meet right after that. And then he, um, canceled that one again. Okay. It was, we're going to meet after the keynote and then no, can't make it. We're going to meet after the state of the union.
No can't make it, but sit at the designer words. We will meet right after. And are we, we will, how did he say it? He said, um, I am gonna definitely gonna see you around something like that. Um, so I sat down at the design awards and I was, I didn't know anybody. I was just sitting in that room. You had no clue.
I had no clue at that point. And I, um, the design award started and then, uh, they introduced the design awards, um, what they are and stuff like that. And then, yeah, and we, we have a special section this year, which is for student winners. Um, and here's the first one. And then suddenly my picture was up there.
So Uh, and people started clapping and I was sitting next to a guy that I didn't know and I asked him, so, uh, should I now go on stage or what, what the heck should I do? And he said, I have no idea, but congratulations. And then I. Uh, if you watch that video from 2015, you can see that it really takes a minute until I get on stage because I wasn't certain.
Should I go there? Should I stay here? You were meant to go
[00:18:56] Antoine van der Lee: on stage. Yeah, I
[00:18:57] Klemens Strasser: was meant to go on stage. This is so
[00:18:58] Antoine van der Lee: not
[00:18:59] Klemens Strasser: Apple like, right? Yeah, it was.
[00:19:00] Antoine van der Lee: They want to prepare everything in detail. And this is just like.
[00:19:03] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. That was a very weird experience, but I, I eventually got on stage and went there and I got my cube, which is not the, the glowing aluminum one, but it's a special for, for students.
Okay. It's a white one. And, uh, why didn't you bring it? Yeah. It's a good question. It's quite heavy. And I, I didn't want to, to. It got stuck in customs again. Oh yeah. And you will
[00:19:28] Antoine van der Lee: cycle to Den Haag today. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's
[00:19:31] Klemens Strasser: all a bit troubling. But it's, um, I got that cube and I was standing on stage and then went down from stage and then.
The guy from Apple who was writing me all the time was just standing there and said, Yeah, I told you we're gonna see each other later. So yeah, but he always tried to just bring me to the design awards without mentioning that I have to be at the design awards. So that was his kind of tactic of trying to meet up without then actually meeting up just to get me into that room.
Um,
[00:20:11] Antoine van der Lee: It's so weird. I know things change now, right? Like there isn't even a dedicated session anymore. It's not in the, um, in the same keynote area or anything like that. Um, I do believe people will know now beforehand and they have to sign. They do. Um, you probably know that. I know
[00:20:28] Klemens Strasser: that
[00:20:28] Antoine van der Lee: too. I didn't now realize.
Yeah. Because this is not the, The only time, isn't it? Yeah, it
[00:20:33] Klemens Strasser: wasn't the only, it was the only time I won, but it wasn't the only time I got nominated.
[00:20:37] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. So, the second time you were an expert already.
[00:20:40] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, but the second time I was, uh, still surprised to, to learn how to do it. Yeah.
This time around, but back then, like I, I would have never dared to dream to win one of those things. And I, I just, I also going to the design awards, I just was interesting in who's going to win the design awards and I would have sat into that crowd anyway, but it's, it was like a very weird thing to, to experience then.
Being the first one called out and then seeing my face up there with my app that I made on my little table under my bed a couple of months ago, which is, yeah,
[00:21:23] Antoine van der Lee: you need to write a book about this, isn't it?
[00:21:26] Klemens Strasser: It's a interesting story.
[00:21:28] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, yeah, but it's also, you know, like for those that are listening and dreaming of it.
In a way, yes, you were super lucky, obviously, but you also did a great job with the app, and you already prepared in advance for the launch of Apple Watch, right? And even though the game might not have worked out eventually as you hoped, because in one minute, you know, it still brought you a lot. I think bringing it back to today, you know, the iOS 18 release or, or Apple Vision Pro, you know, like you can see those things coming up.
And if you prepare yourself for that, it could be a great way to line yourself up in front of the line with Apple, because. They want to promote the apps that support the new features, right? Yes. They want to promote the apps that do all the great things with a potential new device. So I think that is, that is one great learning.
I mean, we can't teach anyone to win a design award because then, you know, the whole system will break and everybody wins a design award. But, uh, I think it's super fascinating how that, how that went. Um, but you were nominated, I think twice, even after that, right? Is, is there anything you think, Is there a secret?
No,
[00:22:38] Klemens Strasser: I, I don't think there's a, there's a secret sauce or anything like that, especially not for winning because then, uh, I, I hope that I, I would have turned, uh, uh, nomination into a win. So I didn't win, win after that, but I, I was, I'm, I'm still like super humbled and super impressed that I got nominated two more times for that.
Um, I mean, one thing that definitely helped is. Um, yeah, like you said, supporting new technologies and, and doing interesting stuff with new stuff that Apple is doing. But also I have a huge focus on accessibility and I got nominated those two times in the inclusivity category, which wasn't a thing back in 2015, but now they have separate categories.
And because of my big focus on accessibility, um, I think. That always, um, brings me in front of certain people from Apple and, um, increased my chances of getting nominated.
[00:23:42] Antoine van der Lee: They, they highly value that. I think even for the other design awards, you know, if your app looks amazing, but it doesn't support accessibility, I don't think you will ever get there.
Um, yeah, that's kind of like a foundation that needs, needs to be in there. But for, for those two dominations, like maybe to really bring it back to the basics, do your regularly update Apple in the new features because. Supporting new features is one thing, but Apple doesn't know about all apps. Yeah.
Unless you tell them, right? Like, is there like a regular cadence where you tell them about, Hey, in six weeks or something I'll release this new app update or?
[00:24:17] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. If I, um, if I feel strongly about a new app update where I do some interesting things, I always reach out to Apple through that promote sheet that, um, they have on their website and to then tell them what is really the, the interesting stuff there.
Most of the time also make a little demo or, uh, attach some slides or something like that, They can look through and yeah, that worked out several times pretty well.
[00:24:44] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is Clemens. Oh, that guy again. Yeah. No, but I think this is really great in general. And, um, it, by the way, changed this year.
You can now do it via App Store Connect.
[00:24:58] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. I think it will change. It hasn't changed.
[00:25:00] Antoine van der Lee: It's already live. Oh, is it? Since when? I think since this year. Since actually last June, they did a release on AppStore Connect and there's now like a promotion page where you can now fill in all those details that you had to do before.
[00:25:11] Klemens Strasser: I thought it's still not, not online, but I'm not sure about that one. We, we need, maybe I'm a beta tester.
[00:25:18] Antoine van der Lee: I don't know. I don't know. Interesting. But that's, that's great stuff. Um, yeah, then. You know, a week ago, you finally made the leap. And, um, that also means that this whole period was when you had side projects.
That makes it even more amazing. And what I also find interesting is that you focused a lot on accessibility. You know, like side projects, time is already limited. And the side projects that I've seen being developed, Often say no to writing tests or doing accessibility, right? Like they really focus on, you know, adding more features and maybe, you know, spend time on app store optimization or marketing for growth, anything like that.
But, um, it feels like accessibility is always a second citizen. You know, um, what is your opinion about that? And why did you? Think it was important. So accessibility.
[00:26:11] Klemens Strasser: I think the the first first time I got in touch in with accessibility at all was in in 2015 on that, uh, Dr DC, because I was going to a lab and then showing, um, my app to somebody there from the accessibility team.
And then. They told me that, um, yeah, I went there to, to just ask them in general about large type and stuff like that. So not really voiceover. So that's also my, my main focus, um, is voiceover accessibility and, um, making my apps, uh, workable for people with low vision or vision impairments. And the person back then told me.
So why did you not bring elementary minutes, um, or make it compatible with voiceover? Why didn't you do that? And I just thought, yeah, why didn't I? I just never thought of doing that. I was just lacking the awareness that this was even a possibility. So I. Then reached out to a blind iOS developer from Germany who helped me to, to get an understanding of voiceover and to, to really nail the basics and getting the, that one right.
And, um, ever since I Like after doing that, I got lots of positive responses. So they are much more
[00:27:36] Antoine van der Lee: focal, right? Those users. Yeah. If they really are grateful.
[00:27:40] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. They are really, really grateful. And I think that's one of the main reasons why I kept on doing it because like the, the feedback and the, the gratefulness of that whole, um, user base is just amazing.
so amazing. It's just, uh, yeah, I got so many emails that I want to print out and just hang some because it just makes you feel so happy to get responses like that. And I think also it's, um, often an interesting challenge to do accessibility rights. Because, um, you, many like simpler apps can be made accessible very easy, um, with some tweaks and, and things like that, um, me coming from games, it's not always so super easy to make games, um, very accessible.
So you often have to think already in the, the, the concept phase of a game to how could this be playable for a person who can't see anything there. And, uh, that often gives an interesting design challenge. And I, I really enjoy that, and that's one of the main things where I kept on doing it. Yeah. So, yeah.
[00:28:56] Antoine van der Lee: And you won an Apple face, is it Apple? I, I looked
[00:28:59] Klemens Strasser: it
[00:28:59] Antoine van der Lee: up
[00:28:59] Klemens Strasser: AppleVis. I, I was nominated for, nominated for, uh, two times for AppleVis, uh, for the Golden Apple Award.
[00:29:05] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I first started like, is this Apple vision or something? I wasn't, yeah, no,
[00:29:09] Klemens Strasser: I,
[00:29:09] Antoine van der Lee: I wasn't. Um,
[00:29:10] Klemens Strasser: yeah. But
[00:29:10] Antoine van der Lee: fully familiar with it,
[00:29:11] Klemens Strasser: but AppleVis, um.
That one almost closed this year, which, um, would have been a tragic if that whole, whole thing would have gone away. But, um, the, the guys, uh, behind, um, Be My Eyes, uh, took that over and we'll keep on, um, running that community. And this is one of the most valuable, uh, resources, I think. So if you're a developer and you want to Get some feedback on accessibility.
Just writing a forum post there, uh, posting a test flight link there, um, will give you. Uh, whole pool of testers who will test your apps in ways you probably would have not thought about it and gives you so much valuable feedback that you wouldn't get anywhere else. So this is like every, every time I do a new app, I definitely post something on Apple viz to just reach out to a few people and to get a very good accessibility feedback there.
So very good website, very good. Great community there. I, I really, it would have been super sad if that would have gone south, but great that they keep going.
[00:30:24] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. And what I, you know, like nowadays Swift UI makes accessibility so much easier, like back in the days with Objective C, it was much more challenging.
You had to do a lot of manual work, but nowadays there's almost no excuse. There generally shouldn't be any excuse for this, but.
[00:30:41] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, but it's, um, I think it's in, in general doing basic voiceover accessibility is, uh, is somewhat easy. Um, you, if, as long as you stick to, to system components and stuff like that, if you don't do implement, uh, a button class yourself or something like that, then it's fairly easy to, to make something accessible, but it's, um, You, you just often need to try it out yourself.
So there is the possibility to, um, to just enable voiceover and then to black out your screen that you can't see anything and then navigate around on the screen without seeing anything. And if you, um, You do that, you will easily find some buttons that are not correctly labeled or something that is not easily reachable through that interface.
And then after testing that out, fixing those things are often very easy, but you just have to be aware that those things are not done correctly.
[00:31:47] Antoine van der Lee: This is great. Less intimidating now. So everybody should do it. Um, all right, enough accessibility for now. This episode is sponsored by SuperWall, the leading platform for in app paywalls.
SuperWall makes it easy to create, test, and optimize paywalls. All without app updates. or writing a single line of code. With real time insights, A B testing, you can quickly discover what works best and boost your app's revenue. SuperWall offers hundreds of paywall templates and supports Kotlin, Flutter, React Native, and Swift.
Trusted by top apps, SuperWall lets you focus on building features while they handle paywall optimization. Ready to unlock your app's potential? Get started today at superwall. com It's super interesting. You went in the last week. For those that don't know, we have an indie house at WWDC. It felt to me you were always an indie.
I think I now realize that. And that's also a thing, right? Like going indie. It isn't only about really being independent, not having a full time job anymore. It's about building apps on your own, making something successful on your own, on the side. And um, my course is also not just for going indie. It's also for helping those that work at a full time job, make more out of their side projects.
And I think that, that are learnings that are super interesting. You made a leap last week, but I bet you were dreaming of it much longer. You have quite some friends around you that already made the leap, uh, which challenges you even more to think about it. How did you, did you, did you plan that moment of going in?
I, I bet you did, or it wasn't just.
[00:33:30] Klemens Strasser: No, I did not plan that moment, that exact moment. So you were not fired, right? No, I was not fired. I was, I was not fired, but there was an opportunity in the company that just gave me the right. Push to, to leave the company right now, um, and I, a financial push or a financial push.
So, so they were downsizing and they offered everybody a pay to quit. Right. And I, um, I liked working at that company, but I probably wouldn't have taken the leap now because I, taking the leap was super hard for me because I love working with people and my little iOS apps and wearables team was such an amazing team.
Like I, I, when announcing that I take on this offer, I started crying because I, I was, it was so hard for me to leave the company, but I, um, the company giving me the opportunity to, uh, that they give me some money that I quit, um, was just the. The perfect push and the perfect sign that I should take on the offer and to, to get some money for the next couple of next two months, um, to just focus on my own stuff.
So,
[00:34:48] Antoine van der Lee: so, so you really have only money for two months.
[00:34:50] Klemens Strasser: No, I got, I got money from the company for two months, but I also did some, uh, side projects or some, some um, contract work over the last year. So I'm financially stable for at least a year, probably more than a year. Uh, so I, this just, um, I, I had that money on the side and I was always thinking, yeah, what is the perfect timing to, to go indie and was always fearful to do this step, but then having the, that opportunity from the company was like the final push that I should really try and do that now.
So I, I have at least money for one year and I think I will see how that works
[00:35:35] Antoine van der Lee: out. And it's, you're saying one year, right? Like, I like to draw the picture a bit more in detail, but you are, you have a few apps in the app store. Um, I know a few are, uh, paid up front. Others are with the subscription model.
So you kind of like have a prediction of your recurring income every month. Um, is it like a year of income that you saved? In case all those apps don't bring in any money. Exactly. So it's in theory, even longer, right? But it's, you basically create a more secure environment for feeling wise, where risks are almost, you know, zero in a way, isn't it?
[00:36:15] Klemens Strasser: It's basically that, yeah.
[00:36:17] Antoine van der Lee: Because where, Um, and you don't have to put in numbers unless you want, but how much money do you get from the side projects and how far does that cover your expenses?
[00:36:28] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, it's, I think, um, like it's most of the time, six, 700 euros per month. Uh, so it's, um, it's a good amount of money, but it's, it's.
maybe covers rent, but, and a bit more than that, but not a lot of more, a lot more than that. So, um, yeah, I, I think it's, um, definitely also something I can grow. So I, I, I was always hesitant to, to get that step because I was fearful that I can't really grow that, but I, having that financial security on, Now it gives me the possibility to, to really take the time and to try to grow those.
Yeah. And um, I like we, I think we we're gonna talk about that a bit more later, but I, I, there are certain things that I always omit doing while working on a full-time job because, uh, it's much more fun to, to play around with new. Um, new ideas or new APIs than actually focusing on marketing or focusing on ASO or stuff like that.
Uh, but it's, it's often the smarter thing to do to focus on at least a part of it. bit of your time on those things. And I, I feel like having now the financial security and my apps out there gives me the possibility to really now tweak them to try to get more revenue from them. But also I have a few things lying around that I always wanted to put out there.
So we'll be a mix of, um, trying to increase my, my apps that I already have, but also trying out some new stuff.
[00:38:12] Antoine van der Lee: That's it, right? Like with side projects, you might have like maybe two hours, three hours per week. Maybe if you're lucky, uh, and your girlfriend doesn't ask you to do something together, you have the Saturday.
But that, that's basically it. And, um, you also want to have fun in your spare time. So you probably work indeed on those new APIs or, or, you know, on the new device that Apple released and, um, it's already great that you have this income, but think about it. If you can work full time on those projects, right?
Like it's very likely unless you do something very wrong that it will grow or at least, you know, um, make your financial situation even better. Having that one year of security, you probably won't even need it, right? Yeah, yeah. If things go well. Yeah. Um, that, that's what you hope for. Yeah, that's,
[00:38:58] Klemens Strasser: that's definitely the, the hope.
Yeah. But I, I feel like I already in the first week of being indie, like one of the first things that I did was, uh, looking at my apps and one of those had, uh, horrible paywall Like the, the paywall didn't even show the price that people are going to pay for it. And it's a very low price. You call it a paywall?
Yeah. And I call it a paywall, but it's, it was, um, this was probably because the, the paywall was kind of an afterthought. I released the app initially as a paid upfront one, but it didn't work out very well. So I switched to a model where people could play the first I think 30 levels for free and then switch to to the paid version.
And back then I just didn't have any great knowledge about paywalls and, uh, didn't, um, really think of how can I probably I really can convert people to, um, paying the full thing. And one of the first things I did was just looking for maps and I saw that paywall again. I haven't touched that for four years.
Which app is it? Ladder Rooms, um, is the, is the game which won an, uh, or one which was nominated for the design award in 2022. Uh, but this, um, back then, I think If I would have done the paywall properly, I would have converted more people over the last two years. And so, um, one of the first things I did now being Indie is actually taking time to make proper paywall and to make that look nicer.
And I think it already paid off. So I think The, the, at least the last week isn't the great indication of how well it will perform over the next couple of months, but it already, there are some signs that it's, it was a smart choice to finally spend some time there.
[00:40:56] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean that growth takes time, right?
But the more you do today, the more it can resonate and grow over time, right? And those 1 percent changes that you do every. Um, every day on those paywalls, um, can really pay off. And in, in retrospect, would, would you wish that you did, have done that earlier?
[00:41:15] Klemens Strasser: Definitely. So
[00:41:16] Antoine van der Lee: for, for those that might have side projects right now, right?
Like you have limited time and you have an app, you want to make it a more richer of features and stuff like if you look back like how would you balance your time spent on Paywall optimization and feature development. I
[00:41:32] Klemens Strasser: think I should have done far less of the feature development and also far less of putting out new and new apps and focusing on getting the basics right.
But I, I feel like it's, you're, you're always smarter after the fact that you did those things. So I, I'm not even sure if I would have been in the situation of knowing how to make a very good paywall. Back then two years ago, but I learned how to, to do something better through other projects and through more experience.
So, and also to, to do those things quicker. So
[00:42:10] Antoine van der Lee: it's also, I feel like over the last month or maybe year, um, there's much more. Uh, publicity about, you know, paywalls, right? Like you see much more tools that make it possible to do it remotely and to experiment with it. Uh, there is many, uh, results of experiments.
There's even subscription reports every year that you can look up where you can see like, Hey, um, the weekly subscription and the monthly subscription are most effective in your case. category, right? Like that, that's by the way, you know, every type of app has a different audience and that likes to pay differently, right?
Um, and it's interesting as well, right? Because I was looking at your apps and, uh, a few of them are, are paid upfront still, and probably a few were like that. Um, you also have a few that are outdated, which might be the reason that they are still paid upfront. But in general, if you If you had the idea of going indie already, um, and I'm not sure if that's the case, but that's also something you would have done differently, isn't it?
Like paid up front apps, um, especially with games, you have no idea whether you will like the game maybe. And, um, what you now did is you allow to create a habit for the user. They reach level three, they are in, they are like, Oh man, I want to reach level four and then pay well. Yeah. Um, Do you still believe paid upfront is even?
[00:43:38] Klemens Strasser: I think it's, um, like paid upfront is very, very hard. So I think that's, um, especially in the whole games area because, um, I feel like it's even harder to compete with the bigger companies in games because often, um, even our games that are released on console are just repurposed on the app store and then sold cheaper on the app store.
So you have to then to compete with a AA or AAA game that is sold for 10 bucks on the app store and want to to Yeah compete with that with also a paid up front app. That's very very hard. So I think in games paid up front isn't So such a great thing anymore. I maybe it definitely can work for some apps, but I I personally wouldn't do it anymore Um, yeah, also because like people have such a much more, uh, possibility to try out different games.
So they would rather, um, just if they see one paid app and free, free ones, they would probably first try the free, free ones, and then, uh, maybe go to the game that is paid up front, but maybe they will also stick on the free ones and then, um, just never look at your app while on the free ones. apps, if there is one very specific app that is the only app in that category, um, and it's paid up front, then they have kind of to go with that if there is no alternative.
But in games, there are often alternatives. Yeah,
[00:45:19] Antoine van der Lee: you see the same in with other apps. Yeah. And the funny thing is that it's not that people don't want to pay. In fact, I think that changes much more and people are much more used to paying for subscriptions nowadays, even, but it's more about. They want to know what they pay for.
Right. And if you can get them into your app, give them a real experience. Um, still, you know, the best way to convert is to show a paywall right up front because people are in the app store, they look for something, they picked your app as being the destination. So they're much more likely to convert at first launch.
Um, but then still, if you need to give them the option to stay in the app, if they don't want to pay yet, because they're not ready for it and make that up, um, a great experience, right? And give yourself the opportunity as well to upsell them later at a later stage. And if they happen to stay for free, that's fine too.
Maybe you build a new feature in the future that does make it more interesting for them to convert, right? But you all throw that away with a paid upfront.
[00:46:20] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, definitely. And also there's a, there's, I think I got so much valuable feedback from users that probably never converted, but I, they still tried out the app and, um, told me certain things that were wrong in the app.
And I would have never got that feedback if I had a paid upfront app.
[00:46:43] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. That's, that's also in a way revenue. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because
[00:46:47] Klemens Strasser: you then make your app better for people who will potentially buy the app.
[00:46:52] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you also briefly mentioned that you have multiple apps and you wish you had less apps and focused more on the basics.
Yeah. Um. I think I recently had a discussion with somebody that, yeah, I want to go indie in a year and, uh, I'll do a new app, uh, every month. And it's not your idea. It was somebody else. And yeah, and then I hope to go indie in a year. And, um, I'm like the opposite, right? Like, I really like to focus on one thing.
And you told the same now, right? Like, why do you think it's much better to focus on maybe one or two, maybe a few apps instead of, you know?
[00:47:30] Klemens Strasser: I think, um, you were, there, there are just certain things that you learn about an app after it has been released and after it has been used a couple of months and years that you, you can't always learn with different apps.
I think both approaches have, have their pros and cons. Um, iterating over. things and trying out stuff with new apps, definitely is a pro. But I think then also having multiple apps there and wanting to have the quality high of those apps needs your time to maintaining them and that's it. Much harder if you have lots of apps than if you have only one or two.
So yeah, um, I, I'm, I really wish sometimes that I would have focused on more, more, more of my time on getting, uh, The basics, correct of my apps and to, to grow those apps, then to play around with some, something else. But it's also a balancing act with friends of mine who, who, especially in game development, that's often the case to still.
start developing a game and then always feel like it's not perfect enough. They can't release it and only release it after five years. That's also not the ideal thing. So I feel like getting something out there and getting some something released and learning from the whole experience of releasing an app is very valuable.
And then after that, thinking if that's really an app that I want to continue working on and to, to expand. It's often the smart choice to expand on that, but I can also then see if somebody else wants to, to go to a different projects after that. Yeah. And it's,
[00:49:16] Antoine van der Lee: it's often easy, right? Like I just started a new project.
Yeah. It's,
[00:49:19] Klemens Strasser: it's the easier choice. Yeah. Yeah. The more fun choice, to be honest.
[00:49:24] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. That, that as well. The, the thing that I always find interesting here, like, like you look back. And you now wish you did that, but those extra apps that you've built might have also made you who you are today, right? Like you, you definitely learned from it in a way.
And, um, it's also that you shouldn't just keep pushing on an app that will never be successful. So if you realize like, um, but like, how, how would you. Well, maybe you can actually answer that right because you have a few apps that are still paid up front and I saw like maybe you did one update for the new iPhones.
And before that, it was three years ago that you didn't update. Um, like, when did you decide? Okay, I will not focus on these apps anymore. And I will distribute my apps. Time on those few apps only like how did you make that decision?
[00:50:14] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, I Most of the time in in the past. It was just another fun idea came about and I I threw my time on that But nowadays I think it's it's more where I see the potential of the apps like Looking at the market where I think it's can grow and also, um, things that I personally find interesting and fun to make because it's still, uh, we spend so much time on building our apps and it should always be fun and interesting for ourselves to, to build those.
So I pick out those apps that are both, I think, where the market is there, but also that are just fun to build. To build,
[00:50:58] Antoine van der Lee: which is super important, right? Especially if you're still working at a full time job. And because now with AI, I see many developers jump on the AI, AI boat, which is, which is great, right?
But eventually, if, if it's not truly your passion, it becomes challenging to work on those on the side. Isn't it? Um, but then you just went Indian. Uh, I read your announcement post and you also mentioned there's a new ID coming up and I will not ask you to share what you will be building, but it's more like you're about to add another app to your portfolio.
Now you also gain five extra days a week to work on stuff. So I guess it will work out, but, um, it's contrary to what we just discussed. So how come you are still making that decision? Like,
[00:51:44] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, because I mean, the, this one new idea that I have is an app that is lying around for now two and a half years.
So it's it's not an app, it's a game, a game that I, I feel passionate about. I kind of know that it, or I feel like it's. Probably not the smartest financial decision to, to bring it out, but it's always an app that is, has such a, um, high level of, of being finished already. So it's, there is only a small leap that I have to take to actually bring it out, but I never went those extra step because I never had the time.
Oh,
[00:52:27] Antoine van der Lee: you already built it partly. Yeah, I already
[00:52:29] Klemens Strasser: built it partly. So I, I didn't even, Um, it's not something that I want to start, but this one app, this is also already built in, uh, such a huge part that people often said, why didn't you release that already? But I, I have my reasons why I haven't released it.
So I feel like it would be a shame to not put it out there and to, to try that one. And I mean, it's also, it's something different still for games and apps. So, um, Maintaining an, an app is, is, I don't know, there are certain features every year that Apple adds that you can build into an app and that helps you to, to expand the app, but for games, it's often not the case.
So there, you probably won't add shortcut support to your app or. to your game or you won't add widget support because it doesn't make sense in the context of the game. So I think games often are much more closed thing and, uh, also something where it's fine that you don't update them after a couple of years, where apps on the contrary, there's always something you can extend, integrate and evolve.
[00:53:47] Antoine van der Lee: Right. And aren't you now, I'm playing the devil, but like your friends that are just want to make it perfect, perfect, perfect until released.
[00:53:56] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. Uh, the, the thing on, on, on friends that I have there is to, that they never actually experienced of putting an app out. And they, if you never actually released an app, Don't really get the feeling of what, um, things it takes to put it out there.
Even if it's just making all the screenshots in different languages or, uh, translating release notes, creating a website of your privacy policy and stuff like that. There's so many little things involved where you also get faster every time you do it. But, um, first time, if you never did that before, it's a skill that you just never experienced and you, you are lacking.
So I more, uh, try to push friends who never actually took the step of releasing something that they finally release an app or a game that is, it, it. Just has a limited scope, but it doesn't have to be like perfect or full, full out there for your first project. Just get something out there to, to learn something and to, to really experience the whole release cycle.
[00:55:08] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, this is, um, so in my course I have a whole mindset module and this is one of the things, right? Like get, get something out and once it's out, it's much easier to do an update. Like the first release feels like such a big leap. Um, But, but then as well, if you want to get a job for those that don't even have a job, like if you don't know what it takes to get an app, you know, into the app store, even if it's like a super simple app that doesn't do much, you know, learning from that experience from A to Z, you know, like, you know, know how app store connect works and what you just described is super important.
And then to make sure a resume also a bit better, I think, you know, you need to have. an app in the app store, at least know how to do it.
[00:55:52] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, right. Yeah. And it's actually something that your employer can download and play around and then get a feeling. Which can be risky. Yeah, which can be risky. Yeah, still, but it's, it's, it's, uh, something very nice to, to show, uh, show off and also to, to the whole experience around it is something.
interesting to do. Absolutely. So it gives you much more appreciation of what it actually takes to release. Yeah. But yeah, I can totally see that I'm both contrary in, I sometimes myself hold my ideas to myself for too long. So I probably should have released that game earlier and I should push myself to, to release, uh, both, um, things that I, that are not Perfect out there just to get feedback and to, to learn from that, but also not releasing so many things.
[00:56:49] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:56:50] Klemens Strasser: Yeah.
[00:56:51] Antoine van der Lee: Before we dive back into this episode, I want to quickly share something that could change your journey. If you're dreaming of turning your side project into full independence, my going in the course is designed to guide you every step of the way. Visit goingindie. com and let's make your indie dreams a reality.
That's going indie. com. Enjoy the rest of the episode. Alright, um, I want to look a little bit forward and I also want to cover some different grounds. Um, you're now going to be Full time working on your projects, which, uh, congrats, by the way, amazing. How will you, how will you schedule your time? Because you just mentioned paywall optimization as well.
Um, there's also marketing, like most of the developers know how to build apps. Some don't even know how to design things. Um, and the marketing is a whole different level, right? Like how do you, how, what is your plan on scheduling your time and how do you manage those things like design and marketing?
Like. How do you, how do you do that?
[00:57:53] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. Um, for like, before that, before going now full time indie, I always, um, focused much more on the development side and I definitely shouldn't have done that. And it's definitely a learning that I had over the years. And I, I now. plan to, to make both monthly goals, but also quarterly goals and stuff like that, both for development and marketing and really force myself that I have specific days where I really focus, try to focus on marketing and see what to, where to, um, really bring my apps to, to more people instead of, uh, building that next feature.
And that stuff that often is The thing that made more fun to me on the site, but it's, uh, it's important to also take the time for marketing.
[00:58:49] Antoine van der Lee: How will you do marketing?
[00:58:50] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, it's, uh, it's a good question. Um, I, I have, um, for example, for StudySnacks, which is one of my apps or my, my, the thing that I focused my most time on, on the last, uh, two years now, um, I already, um, have a trailer lying around that I want to put on social media.
So do some social media marketing there. I have, um, plans laid out for regular social media posts. So yeah. Um, I have my, my channels set up for, uh, Twitter, Blue Sky, um, Instagram, TikTok and stuff like that, but they are empty. So I need to fill them with content and I, I have plans of what content that I want to show there, but I, it needs to be consistent.
I think that's also one thing that you often mentioned on your course that consistency is very important, but you, you often, um, lack that. That's time to be consistent and to put on something on social media every other day or every day, uh, if you only have such limited time when you work on a job on the side.
So one of my things that I really want to do is to create that content and to then force myself to really put it out and plan ahead for the next. on what content will be shown on those channels
[01:00:19] Antoine van der Lee: and do you plan on using several tools for that because there's a lot of animation tools or, or will you potentially
[01:00:24] Klemens Strasser: even hire somebody?
Yeah, I, I work with, um, when doing graphics, um, I, I first always did marketing graphics, especially also for app store features myself. And I'm definitely. Not the fastest and not the best in doing those things. Um, but I found another person, uh, Daria, who's also living in Austria, uh, who's, um, this really, really, really amazing designer, uh, where I can just give her a few pinpoints of what it should look like and she comes up with a design that is perfect and in and like less fewer Terms hours than I would have done it.
So I really, um, want to, to delegate certain things that, um, other people can do better and, um, to then use their stuff on for the marketing. So,
[01:01:23] Antoine van der Lee: and this is sometimes difficult, right? Especially when you aren't yet indie, but if you go indie, maybe even more, it's daunting. Like you, in a way, you have a year of, Of salary, right?
Which is quite a long time in a way. And now you will consider hiring an expert, which will cost you money. And I realized for myself, like, it feels like daunting to, to spend like a thousand euros on a certain tool. And by the time that you realize that, that you did that with a tool and it paid out, you will certainly pay two thousand euros.
You know, that, that increases over time when you make more income, but, you know, In a way, it's a skill, isn't it? To, uh, dare to spend money on an expert and realize that it might or will pay off, right? Like your app store screenshots or your app icon, you know, those, those can really make the difference in conversion rates and that, you know, compounds over time.
And is that something you will change when you go indie? How does it work for you? Like,
[01:02:31] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, I, I think I already changed that approach over the last couple of over the last year. First, I, things like the, the app icon are also things that I designed myself for the first apps. But then for, uh, StudySnacks, I reached out to a designer who made the app icon for that one.
And. It really made a difference, um, both for myself because I feel much prouder about the app because it looks so nice. I'm very happy about that icon, but also, um, from I, I'm, I see that much more people are. more likely to click on the app because the app icon looks so nice and to, to, um, and gave me compliments that it really is a nice thing.
So I think, um, I learned that it makes sense to delegate those things and to, they are to spend money on those things, but it's only something that you realize with experience.
[01:03:30] Antoine van der Lee: But will this change now? Because I, before you had your full time income, you didn't really rely on your side project. So it, Potentially it's easier to use that income that you get from a side project, uh, which I, by the way, recommend for those that are still, uh, with, I mean, you don't need that money yet, right?
So if you can invest that in growth and, and make the leap moment eventually easier because you've built up more income and maybe then reduce the marketing, but probably by then you realize like it's worth the investment. But. Like now you're dependent on the income that you get, right? So if it's 700 euros and you decide to hire an AppIcon designer for 2500, um, you know, like that's, that's feels more risky maybe.
Yeah. Isn't it?
[01:04:17] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, definitely. But I, I've, I learned through my experience of working with that AppIcon designer and with the other designer that it really pays off. So I, I really dare to continue taking those steps. Yeah. Absolutely. So I don't think it won't change for me.
[01:04:37] Antoine van der Lee: Interesting. All right, cool. All right.
So, um, we're almost at the end. Um, I want, I want two more topics and the first one is your work life balance. And, um, which in a way is more important when you still have full time job, because there's already a limited time and you work on side projects. But when I went indie, things changed. Unexpectedly, because.
It certainly is your main income, right? Like everything you do pays off for yourself, but you also really have to make sure you get yourself an income and for you as well, that maybe you have a spot for in a year from now, because that's when your savings are done, um, which can be negatively impacting https: otter.
ai Time spent on your work because you might go full time and even more hours spent on your projects, right? How what is your tactic here? How do you make sure that you still have a good work life balance?
[01:05:32] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, I I Really often force myself to to take that to put down the computer and do our stuff. So I for example also working I Um, I started to work every day pretty early to, um, be at home at a certain time to have my daily walks with my girlfriend.
So we have like every day we leave at around 4 p. m. for, uh, you know, work. A nice garden that we have close by that we are nice park that we have close by the where we walk for an hour and to just get away from everything. And that's something that I want to keep. And I also love to travel and I will also want to keep on doing that, um, to, to just get myself out there and to, to not think about the.
Uh, my apps and my work all the time because I also every single idea that I had for my apps and my games was um happening during Doing something completely else that was not connected with, um, anything app related. So, either it was watching a movie, it was taking a walk somewhere, it was, uh, for the first, for the first game, just looking at my watch, uh, in an island moment, or just, um, reading a book somewhere close to the ocean.
And I, I always had. those ideas in moments where I wasn't working. So I know that it's important to take the time off and to bring yourself into other environment and do something completely else to stay creative and to, to really. Keep on doing that because I think if you really just Spend full time on your stuff and go over that all the time then you burn out you will Won't ever feel as fun as it can really do do and you You probably won't be as creative as you could be if you really take the time off
[01:07:35] Antoine van der Lee: and um now it's um Thursday, it's 4 p.
m You're in the middle of that that new feature that you're building You You're almost there. You feel like it, but you thought that two hours ago as well. Um, but your girlfriend is there waiting for you. Yeah. How do you deal with that?
[01:07:51] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, then I, I really, um, sometimes I, I say, yeah, just 10 more minutes.
But if I feel like I told her this already, then I, I know that it's not going to be 10 more minutes. And that, that is something that comes with experience also. But then I really put down the laptop and just leave it on the side. And most of the times, it's really if you then come back after not thinking about that, it's like this.
And, you know, uh, the solution to your problem, you don't
[01:08:23] Antoine van der Lee: stop thinking about it, isn't it?
[01:08:25] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. But if, uh, it depends, um, you, if you really bring yourself into, in a certain environment where you talk about, like, if I meet a friend for coffee and we talk about, stuff that is not work related, then I have to think, stop thinking about the problem because I'm in another environment and another situation where I can't constantly think about the problem.
So, yeah, so, um, I try to just create such environments that, uh, get me away from everything to then start fresh into the problem again.
[01:09:03] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating. I, I did a talk, um, about going Indie at, at Swift Leads. And one of the sections I had is that there's something like sleep learning and I made that up myself.
I thought that's a thing. And then afterwards, somebody approached me and just for the sake of telling me like, Hey, that's actually a thing. So if you, if you work on something and you're stuck, um, you will bring it back into your, into your night and you will continue processing it, which can also be, you The reason that you certainly see the solution, um, the next day when you start.
Yeah. So I think in general, like, uh, find a way to quit quickly and spend time with your friends and family and write down where you were. Right. Like that to, yeah. But, but yeah, it's super important to have that balance and, uh, maybe, maybe it helps you that your girlfriend is waiting there. You wanna Yeah.
You wanna keep her happy. Definitely. Uh, yeah. Yeah. But also if you don't have a girlfriend, right? Like,
[01:09:56] Klemens Strasser: yeah.
[01:09:56] Antoine van der Lee: Um, super important. Cool, um, I want to do some closing thoughts and um, I would love to see if we can give some advice to those that Are thinking about going in the, like, what, what advice would you give them, uh, based on your experience?
[01:10:15] Klemens Strasser: Yeah. I, I think, um, one thing that I said before is just putting something out there is definitely one of the, the most important things that, um, people should just do. It's I think it's, it's hard. because you always feel vulnerable. If you put something out there, people will come and criticize it and give you feedback.
But most of the time it will be constructive feedback and it's something that you can learn from. So, um, both for the sake of the feedback and through, um, like really experiencing what it takes to put an app out there, um, for those learnings, it's super valuable. And then also it's not only critic, uh, feedback that criticizes your work.
It's also, for example, like with my all, all the accessibility feedback that I got, it's such delightful feedback and things that will, uh, make you happy. just pushes you forward into the right direction that really helps you to either then enhance the app or to do another project if that's your thing.
Uh, we, we discussed both, both possibilities, but I, I feel like getting the first step, pushing something out there, having something out there is like the most important thing.
[01:11:38] Antoine van der Lee: Learn by shipping, embrace failure. Yeah. Super important. Amazing. Um, if people want to follow you, where can they find you?
[01:11:44] Klemens Strasser: Uh, basically on all the socials.
So, uh, Twitter it's at Clemens Strasser. Um, it's the same thing on Mastodon, on, uh, Blue Sky. Instagram, whatever, those things that just fly around.
[01:12:01] Antoine van der Lee: I'll make it easy. I'll put that all in the, uh, in the episode notes. Um, thank you. Thanks a lot for being here. Super special to have you here while you are on a holiday, I guess.
[01:12:10] Klemens Strasser: Thank you for inviting me.
[01:12:12] Antoine van der Lee: Yeah, it was super interesting. And, um, I hope that we inspired many future indies and, um, we'll see you in the, uh, in the house. Yeah, definitely. All right. Yes. Well, Thanks and see you later.
[01:12:22] Klemens Strasser: Yeah, thank you.
[01:12:23] Antoine van der Lee: That's it for this episode. Every Indie journey is unique and you might find inspiration in other episodes as well.
If you enjoyed the show, please like, subscribe, or leave a rating on your favorite podcast platform. It helps me reach more creators who dream of going Indie. Thanks for listening and see you next time.