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The Wellness Creator Podcast is your go-to source for expert insights and actionable tips in the evolving world of health, wellness, and spiritual-based business. Join us as we explore proven online growth strategies, chat about current trends, and interview fellow wellness creators who’ve managed to turn passion into profit by helping people live better, healthier lives.
Jeni (00:01)
Hello and welcome to the Wellness Creator Podcast. In today's episode, we are going to be talking about consumer rage and especially rage against internet-based businesses and what this means for you and your business in 2025 and beyond. Hello, Sandy.
Marvelous (00:21)
Hey, this ⁓ is one we've talked a lot about, like just you and I, and then we saw this, well you found this article by Anne Helen Peterson on subsdak, and it kind of just had great examples and kind of just set it in a way that we were never quite able to articulate. So this episode will be heavily based or guided by the way that she presented this problem.
Jeni (00:49)
Yeah, and if you don't know Anne Helen Peterson's work and her writing, she runs a really popular newsletter called Culture Study, which is on Substack, as you said, Sandy. And I just, she does these really thorough, well-articulated posts about things going on in our culture, and I highly recommend it. Yeah, and this post, I think this blog post and newsletter is maybe one of the most refreshing things I've read.
with respect to business in the last five years. And really the gist of it is that she's observing and commenting on the fact that even though so many of us are disgusted by globalization and these big companies that get things delivered, same day or next day, I'm not gonna call anyone specifically out there, and sort of cheap. ⁓
you know, goods that are potentially made by slave labor, like all these things, like so many of us are so unhappy and distrustful of those big global companies. And yet, and so we turn to small companies, small businesses, and we kind of expect the same fast shipping, cheap prices, like the same kinds of behaviors to come from a small family business or a small, a small, you know, a smaller business.
a local business even, and like how ridiculous that is. ⁓
Marvelous (02:14)
Yeah,
it's like we say we're going to shop local, we're going to support artisans, small businesses ⁓ who have these less exploitive practices who are better for the environment or whatever it may be. So we say that out loud and we try to seek them out, yet we are holding them to the standard of be fast and be cheap, just like my Amazon. I'll call them out, Amazon, Tmoo, whoever. ⁓
what we get so disappointed and angry when it takes a little bit longer to get to us, when it's perhaps a little bit more money. ⁓ you know, it's not the same service that you expect from an Amazon level company. And I, and obviously when we say it like that, it's extremely unfair. And I think some of this happens in the background of our brains and we're not like fully looking at it. Right.
What do we do? We complain and we see this in Facebook groups and in Slack groups that are for specific brands or companies. It's just this pile on, on the company. And because maybe it wasn't exactly to your expectations and it's heartbreaking to see what that can do to the, the entrepreneurs or the founders or the owners, whomever like it's, it's really, really awful. It's very easy to complain online when you are behind a screen.
Jeni (03:35)
Yeah, I really noticed this on platforms like Instagram, especially on ads in the comments. People are horrible to each other. And I will just say, we have built several successful companies in the last decade together. And I think the way that people behave towards businesses now, I would be very reluctant if I were starting now in 2025 to even be willing.
Marvelous (03:42)
Yes.
Jeni (04:02)
to start a business, to start a small business, to participate in any of this. I'm so disgusted by it. And it wasn't until I read this article that I really could articulate it and understand why I'm so hesitant and disgusted by this behavior. And it's really just, ⁓ I think it's gotten so much worse since the pandemic as so many things have. Like I think sort of cancel culture and call out culture has transferred into their realm of this, of like,
trying to cancel brands for things that really are not necessarily egregious mistakes. Like maybe they're just not to your liking, like their business is, you know, has a policy or practice you don't love. So, but you are turning that into like an ethical argument against them. And she does a really good job, I feel like, of our articulating that piece of it.
Marvelous (04:55)
I think one of her points, one of her stories is about like, I think this happens a lot in like small hobby groups or, ⁓ you know, interest groups. And I can see, you know, I agree with you. Like if you were thinking, I'm going to sell this widget. wait, no, I'm not like, look at the hate and the expectation that these people are the people who are selling or who are making a business out of it selling.
Jeni (05:08)
Yeah.
Marvelous (05:23)
Products or supplies or whatever look, why would you put yourself through that right? Like it's it's it's really really awful and I think One of her other points that I really appreciate it is like people will often come with their opinion or their preference Right, and it's not actually a complaint, but they'll still they'll still say like
You know, I wish that came in two days and not seven days, or I wish it was packaged this way and not this way. And it's like, it's not really a complaint. The company didn't really do something egregious. was just like the way they could survive and what they had, you know, like with their expenses in their time, this is what they could do. And I think that for all of us who are frustrated with the company, I think it's a really good question. Is this actually a problem where the company did make a mistake?
Jeni (06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Marvelous (06:13)
and I'm asking for some kind of compensation for it, or is it just my preference that the button was this color or the packaging was more whatever, the labeling was different, whatever it may be.
Jeni (06:25)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah, I am in ⁓ a skincare group for a small brand that I love and they recently made some changes to their packaging and like maybe a small change to like formulation or something and peep some people want ape shit in there. Like, I don't know why you would do this. We liked what you had before. It's like their business. Like you don't get to decide and I mean, it's just there's this sense of
⁓ like self-righteousness that I feel like people have around business and it's not just consumer products. So in the, like the example that Anne is calling out here, she's talking about like a Facebook group where they're trading flower bulbs, right? And it's like, and then there's all these small farmers kind of like who have extra flower bulbs and they sell them. And it's just like, it's something that should be this beautiful community. Yes. And yet people are like calling out.
Marvelous (07:16)
Yeah, point of connection and.
Jeni (07:22)
you know, like gardeners basically for not packaging their bulbs properly or whatever. Like it's actually to me, if you step back from this and you look at the big picture of what's going on, like whatever this thread is in society, I think is really kind of dangerous and not okay.
Marvelous (07:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think we wanted to bring, talk about this, this concept for two reasons. One, if you are one of the people who think that you are keeping a company accountable in quotations, right? but also you were also, if you're like most of our audience or online business, ⁓ practitioners, they're going to receive some of the complaints as well. And it's like a little bit of grain of salt. And I think the, ⁓ subtitle of this article is like,
Jeni (07:56)
Yeah, love that word. Love it.
Marvelous (08:11)
⁓ when a complaint isn't a complaint, like is that complaint actually a complaint? And it's, again, it goes back to that, this person just would prefer it this way, but it's not like something I've done wrong. And I think there's a mindset issue there around just like accepting or reading the complaint in a way that's like knowing that this is the culture, unfortunately, and it maybe isn't really something that you need to change or address or do something differently. And I agree with you with about the
Like people outside the company really don't have any right to say, use this packaging or that pump, you know, cause they don't understand the other side of it, which are the expenses. And sometimes these things go up and that's not shared publicly, but you have to make a decision to keep your company afloat. And then people complain about it.
Jeni (09:02)
Yeah. Or you just decide
as the owner of the company that you like the other packaging more. Like you can decide that, it's your business. you don't, you know, obviously you wanna be able to sell your product and keep your business alive, but fundamentally, like these are not questions for the consumer or the person buying the product to get to decide.
Marvelous (09:08)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (09:24)
⁓ You know, we've obviously wrestled with this ourselves. Like that's probably why there's so much energy in our voices when you hear us talking about this, because we have had people quote unquote try to hold us accountable for practices in our business that they don't agree with. ⁓ But it's not their choice to decide what our policies are, right? And I think there was a period of time when this really first started becoming a practice in our culture, which I would say like was...
a little bit before the pandemic, not much, like earliest maybe was 2018 that I really started to notice this. Prior to that, nobody ever talked to us like that. Yeah, people were kind or they were like, if something didn't work, they let us know, but it wasn't like they weren't trying to project their expectations of how we ran our business on us the same way that has now become kind of common. And I also think it's important, Sandy, you said why we're doing this. Like I think it's important because we have
Marvelous (10:02)
People were kind, always kind.
Jeni (10:22)
when we were running our coaching program, we heard from our coaching clients who are teachers on our platform and coaches on our platform about the ways that they were being quote unquote asked to be held accountable too, right? And these are really like kind of traumatizing accusations to level at a small business. ⁓ I think especially early on before this became something we could talk about like this, like it was this almost... ⁓
Marvelous (10:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (10:52)
I don't know, immoral. it was like this, people were afraid they were being immoral because they were just making choices and holding boundaries for themselves about their business. And I think I just want to say like, just flat out, it's not an immorality for you to set boundaries and have policies and then hold people to those policies. Like you're not a bad person, an immoral person at all for doing that. In fact, you're modeling really
Marvelous (11:03)
Thank
Jeni (11:22)
effective, productive behavior.
Marvelous (11:24)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think that is something we've gotten a lot better about recently is like holding to our rules and our terms and our boundaries and saying no to clients. ⁓ when they ask some for something, usually they want something for free and it's actually happening right now in the inbox. And it's like, no, you know, like I I'm excited that you're excited about the offer, but it doesn't actually apply to you for these reasons. And you know,
No, and usually nothing happens. Like, yeah, I've just disappointed somebody. But I think we as consumers need to be a lot more tolerant and flexible and empathetic understanding to the companies that we want to do business with that we are choosing because they are local and small and so on. But also on the other side, as business owners, we need to just stand up and be strong in the terms that we set in the rules that we set in the boundaries for our life and our mental health.
And we have to stop making everything that somebody says out there mean something about us and it take over our emotions and our ruin our day. It doesn't have to be like that. Yes, it's shitty, but also we are adults and we are business owners and we can just like recognize and see that person and then just decide like that. Yeah, I think she's wrong. I disagree. I, as you said, made a decision for my business for these reasons.
Jeni (12:32)
Yeah.
Marvelous (12:52)
And I'm going to stand by that. And I also like a lot of those people online who are complaining, that's what they do. A lot of them, you know, like that's just online complaints are negative and, and awful. And so maybe we don't need to worry about too much about those people who are, and this is more like, you know, if you have somebody who's in a membership and complaining, then it's a little bit different than just somebody who's bought like a
Jeni (12:54)
Mm-hmm.
Marvelous (13:21)
product from you and doesn't like the packaging, right? Like it's, I just think we need to separate that and just like, you know what? No, it's okay that you're going to be a little bit angry. Like we have to take care of our own mental health as business owners and that's boundaries and it's hard.
Jeni (13:37)
Yeah, I think that's right. I think that there is this, I mean, for me, I always take kind of like a zoomed out view of all of this and what I see happening in our industry and in our own company. I just see the echoes of it in our broader culture as Anne does in this essay. And I think it's kind of a dangerous thing. And I think that there is a certain.
a certain kind of person that does this. Like you're saying, people are just like that. I think it's a certain kind of person. I think it's a certain generation and a certain gender typically. And I think that it's ⁓ something that we should call out as well in question. Because I don't think that collectively as a society, it's benefiting to us to have people behaving this way or having those expectations that businesses or organizations are going to just. ⁓
bend the rules or shape their prices or their policies or their packaging or anything, because you want to express that. And you feel like it's your job to express that. mean, you can give feedback constructively. That's great. That's fantastic. Businesses and brands love feedback. We make decisions about the future of what we do in our companies based on your feedback. But this sort of like,
Marvelous (14:45)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (14:58)
I don't know, self-righteous. Demanding is a different thing. Yeah.
Marvelous (15:00)
Yeah, that's where it's the demanding that gets
to me. We once had a client who, well, once, multiple times now, I've had a client who would say, I just need this thing moved in the app on my site and my husband, who's a software engineer says it won't take you very long. Like that. It's like, what? You are not getting anything ever. Like you can't dictate what we do as a company. Like, yes, we'll take the feedback and we do and we track it.
Jeni (15:17)
Yeah, yeah, we've got.
Yeah.
Marvelous (15:29)
but you can't demand that we're going to change something in your site alone. This is not, you did not pay for custom software, right?
Jeni (15:36)
Yeah, you know, that's a good point, Sadie. And I think that this also goes back to Anne's point about people making comparisons between small companies and these big, you know, Amazon-like multinational, multi-billion dollar enterprises, because there is this sense that we should be as fast and as cheap and as available as a company that is like
Marvelous (15:46)
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (16:04)
100 million times as large. And I think like all of us have these expectations by this certain group of people. And I just like want to say that out well, like that's in that's kind of insane to think that like, what on what planet would that ever make sense? And Anne does a really good job of illustrating this because she lives on an island in the Pacific Northwest, not far away from from my homeland. And she talks about like the one restaurant on the island and how it's like the fish and chips are
and she has no problem paying the money or waiting for a long time to get her order because she knows the people that run the restaurant and they know her dogs and there's this sense of community and she understands why things are expensive because all that food has to come on a boat and that's expensive, right? And I think...
because we live in this globalized society, we've lost track of those actual human connections and community connections. And I just want to say, if you are running a small business, as we are, you should aim to be seen as a person and not as a big brand. that is humanizing you and your brand is going to be helpful for you so that you get treated by people in the public.
by your audience as a human.
Marvelous (17:25)
Right.
It's harder to be angry at or criticize someone that you know and their children and your dog, for example, right. And also on the entrepreneur side, it's it's you need to know your clients, right? Because you're going to make different decisions if you're ⁓ accountable to them versus your shareholders or something, right? There was a great quote in some of these articles, like it's always so interesting to read the the comments.
Jeni (17:33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Marvelous (17:54)
And this lady, one of the comments, she had a quote and she admitted admitted it. Her name is Kathleen Donahoe. I want to give her credit. She said she felt heard this on tick tock, which I love. She's like, I'm embarrassed, but here it is. And she said the annoyance is the price of community and loneliness is the price of convenience. And I think that really sums it up. Like it's so easy to order a pizza, you know, delivery to you. It.
but you're also isolated and behind your tappity tap on your phone to order that versus going down to your nearest Italian joint and like sitting and watching the waiter sweat and work and, you know, deal with difficult customers. You are a different person. You're an entirely different mindset. And I think for all of us, there's an effort that is needed to like really intentionally join the community out there.
farmers markets. And we all say that, like we all want that, right? We're all angry at Amazon. ⁓ and I've heard of so many people recently that have just cut out Amazon, deleted their account and have bought a lot less, you know, which is great. ⁓ we all say we want to do that, but I think like, let's really try to do that. Let's try to go and buy local and meet the people and get them to know you get to know them. And that's a totally different, beautiful relationship for all sides.
Jeni (19:19)
Yeah, that is so true. Speaking of like farmers markets, I wanna tell a little kind of story about that. When we were selling candles and aromatics that we distilled ourselves on our island ⁓ a number of years ago, most people fell in love with our products, right? Because they're coming up, they're meeting my family, they're like talking to my little girl who is helping to make everything and they're just delighted by the experience of knowing this family has made these products for them.
But every once in a while, you get somebody, a tourist walking through who would pick up a candle and say, you know, this doesn't really smell like much. And it's like, yeah, because you're used to smelling chemicals, right? Like there's this sense of, like most people could understand, like we would explain and show our still and say, we're distilling the aromatics from the plants that grow right over there in that field, you know, like they could get it. But then there's people that I feel like that like cause and effect is so far removed.
They haven't yet learned how to appreciate the interconnectedness and complexity of everything. That it's just like all their only reaction is like this doesn't smell like a Bath and Body Works candle or a Yankee candle or something. And it's like, yeah, because it's made from a real tree, not chemical tree. You know, like it's not chemical Christmas tree smell. And for you to not like, and then to say that out loud as sort of a complaint is like, what? But I just, would experience that.
Marvelous (20:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Jeni (20:45)
like so viscerally when I interacted and I was just like, wow, this person really has no sense of how the world is, how things are made, what goes into the stuff they use. Like they're just, there's just, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Marvelous (20:53)
Mm-hmm.
but at least they're out there talking to people and learning and that probably
went, huh, like every, you know, like maybe that changed for them. I also.
Jeni (21:03)
Yeah.
Maybe,
mean, yes, thank goodness they were out there, because most people who are alive in Western civilization are pretty far removed from their food or the materials and raw goods that go into the products that they use. ⁓ But yeah, it's pretty wild.
Marvelous (21:26)
I had an experience last summer where I walked just like five minutes from here. There's this little cafe and I was super hot and I ordered a iced coffee and the lady was, it was a huge lineup, super popular little place. The lady did not know how to make an iced coffee and she gave me a hot coffee and I said, no, I need ice. Like I wanted it on ice and, and she was like, and she didn't know what to do. I just said, pour it over ice. So she did. And it was like lukewarm coffee. Cause anyway,
Jeni (21:54)
Yeah.
Marvelous (21:55)
It was not well made and it was a terrible experience, but I could see that she was brand new and didn't know. But the community side of this or the people behind me in line were just laughing so hard because it's not very hard to make a nice coffee. But the fact that this lady wasn't trained to do so on a hot summer day was just hilarious. And it was this lovely at her expense.
It was this lovely experience with like these eye rolling and like, my God, you know, like this, how ridiculous is this kind of expressions passed back and forth between us? And as small as that may seem, it was still human dehuman. Like, and it was, kind of walked out of there just with like a terribly warm ice coffee and it was a good chuckle, you know, like that was hilarious. That was hilarious. And you just don't get that when you like,
order Uber Eats to bring you an iced coffee or whatever. I just, think it's important. I think it's really important.
Jeni (22:47)
Yeah.
Yeah, I imagine like the difference there is because you saw her struggle, you recognize the human experience or you had grace for that. And so it turned into like a silly story and a chuckle and like a disappointing coffee versus if you had had that lukewarm thing delivered to your house, you would have been pissed. Yeah. And that's the difference. Like the humanity is missing. And I just, noticed that like having run an online business for the last 10, 11 years, like
Marvelous (22:55)
Yeah. ⁓
but if that was delivered to me...
I would have been like, bada bada bada bada.
Jeni (23:19)
We've just, think we've gotten so accustomed to dealing with everything with like three steps removed that we've lost the ability to give each other grace because we're not, because that human experience, that humanity isn't front and center so we sort of forget. Some of us forget that that's really probably what was going on. Is somebody made a mistake or they didn't understand or they're new or like.
Marvelous (23:40)
Yeah, have a bad day. Yep.
Jeni (23:44)
there's policies in place for reason and you're not seeing firsthand enough to understand the reason, but sometimes you just seem to have grace or deference and humility around that, right? To be like, there's probably a reason this is like this and I might maybe don't know what that reason is.
Marvelous (23:48)
Why?
Yeah, exactly. Okay, well that was good. Hopefully that will help the listeners when you are about to complain or getting something that you would prefer was a little bit different or are receiving complaints. Let's just think about it in a way, in a human way, and let's just be a little more kinder to each other online.
Jeni (24:19)
Yeah, and we'll
make sure we put this article in the show notes. I recommend you go and read the article yourself. I've read it like three times. It's that good. And please go through and read the comments. Like as you pointed out, Sandy, the comments in this article are phenomenal and well worth, you know, 10 minutes of your time to go through.
Marvelous (24:32)
Yeah, they're really good. ⁓
Yeah.
And then just one last request. If you have any stories of receiving a complaint in this vein or having made one or a story about customer service, please share it on YouTube in the comments. We would love to hear it.
Jeni (24:52)
Alright folks, we'll see you next time.
Marvelous (24:54)
Thanks, bye.