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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
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Mishu Hilmy(00:01)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com.
at Aston Rep. So yeah, on screen he's appeared on the Deli Boys on Hulu and BAM! That's broke ass motherfuckers on Prime. Then we get into it. We chat about his unexpected path from tech to acting, about improv, shaping, performing, and you know, we learn about corporate public speaking, which is always fun and how that can also influence the craft. Talk about the pressure of, you know, trying to be funny on command and improv and what
drawing him to a current scripted role. if you're into that, hope you stick around and listen. You can learn more in the show notes as well as follow Jorge at Jorge Salas Shai on Instagram. He's also currently getting into Shakespeare and learning about the language of Shakespeare. So if you're into that, yeah, reach out to him and bend his ear on Shakespeare gigs. Here it is, me and Jorge. Hope you enjoy.
JORGE (01:55)
I got into acting about five years ago. Actually, this coming year will be six now. I can't call myself a newbie anymore. And my intent was never to be an actor. When I was younger, I had no intention. Even seven years ago, nothing. It started off with improv at the second city. I took it. I needed to do something different with training money.
I figured it sounded like fun, so I did it. I really liked it and it was fun. I kept on taking the next class and the next class and this was all on my dime. The first class was on the company, but it was just a lot of fun. The community with the ensemble. And as we got towards the end, you had to perform two shows to graduate from the program or whatever. And I think that's where I picked up the performance bug, at least the live performance bug. then that quickly led, I liked improv and it was fun, but I don't know if I could do it.
more or longer term, but I really liked the long form or just more sketch and the role playing. And then someone said you should try acting. So then I enrolled in acting classes and about a year and a half later I was done with those and I started auditioning and that was that. So was it just like share curiosity? So you're the company you were working for is like, we have a budget for soft skills training. You know, it's up to you. You can take whatever you want to do, whether it's online courses, this and you like what what
What was sort of the whisper for you that said, check out improv was a purely fun. I'm just curious. what's on that? It's typical for tech because I'm in technology. That's my day job. So like how does improv? So I wanted something where I can think more off the cuff because more times than not a plan never goes according to plan. Everything changes. Only constant is changed. So how can I more easily adapt to constantly changing plans, issues?
requirements or whatever. I figured maybe think more off the cuff and stuff like that. And then I had just I had done some toast masters in the past. And that's where you get feedback informally to how to public public talks and speech. And I felt I felt comfortable with that. But just let's add a little bit more like ad hocness and more improvisation. So that's that was the impetus for that class. So like growing up or, throughout
MISHU (04:20)
in high school, college, not so much any whispers or aspirations or impulses to perform. None, zero. Experience with Toastmasters, they're a little bit more, they kind of have like a rubric or a structure of like what constitutes like a good off the cuff speech or general public speaking. Like how did that compare to say what you were learning in, you know, Second City or other improv classes? Well, like you said, it's more rigorous and that was more scripted. You wrote your presentation and you focus on it being, is it informational?
Is this supposed to influence someone or is it supposed to make someone take some sort of action? And then it was catered around corporate life. So you got to work with toast masters in downtown or wherever at lunchtime and you would get feedback. You would sign up and I'm to do my speech and you would get feedback after your speech and it was very friendly, a safe space. nice. Yeah, so it's very rigorous folks structure a lot of feedback in terms of using like
Like your hands, et cetera. The old, now, now I remember and it's still, when I hear people talk, eliminating the filler words, the like, so, uh, and, and, it's still- a counter, right? They have someone who counts it, right? Yeah. And I still do it now. Most people still do it, but there in Toastmasters, was drilled very early. Pause, a pause in quietness was, is much more powerful than an um- So when it came to like that initial improv,
class, did you find that some of the techniques from Toastmasters gave you a bit of mindfulness or a stage presence or was there a degree of like still in your head like, oh wow, I'm just making things up on the spot in front of strangers? It was more the latter. I was making stuff up. It was just more fun. Toastmasters had a rigor, kind of like a most more of a study and a focus to it. Whereas improv was just it was funny. It was fun. We played a lot of games to get, you know, acclimated to it.
And I felt like Toastmasters was more corporate. just. Yeah. Yeah. And I've never done Toastmasters. I looked into it I'm just always interested in different modes of approaching public speaking or being in front of a performance and learning like different principles. Mine's predominantly like, you know, theater background. For Toastmasters, would you say if you would go week over week or every other different Toastmaster group in the loop?
SPEAKER (06:43)
Would you show up and go, right, next week you're on the schedule for giving this type of little five, 10 minute speech and for the next week you would like write it up and rehearse it or practice it? Right. I would. And then if I wasn't giving a speech, I would be one of the attendees and giving feedback to the person giving the speech. How long were you doing Toastmasters before improvising? Was this like kind of maybe every other month or just a curiosity thing for you? Or was it more of a consistent little community that you would participate in over the years?
It was pretty consistent. remember doing it at one job and then I left and moved to another job and I continued it there. They had a pretty big presence there and then it stopped. It just altogether stopped. I haven't never gone back to Toastmasters. Because there's a certain impulse there too, right? Like what was the motivating factor? Because I'm just trying to tie in, like I'm imagining a tie in between.
the impulse to say perform or be on camera or be on stage and like a sort of a segue is like, all right, this feels like a light version of it, maybe a more socially acceptable version of it. Like what was the motivation or the, you know, the little whisper impulse? Yeah, so that one with Toastmasters, was, I was in technology programmer, very hands-on developing code, very analytical, logical, black one zeros, but very binary. And I was looking to move up into management.
leadership and that's what I'm doing now. So part of the part of what you needed to do, you need to be, you you needed to have this communication skills, being able to know your audience. Toastmasters was very good at that in my communicating up across or down. So yeah, I was looking to make I was moving from an individual contributor to more of a management leadership role.
most corporate structured growth that's outside of a specific skill that you can do is like, can you talk to people like the people like you, do they trust you and how can you get there? Cool. So yeah, so you go through this second city curriculum and by the end of it, you have this discovery like improvisation, maybe not so much my cup of tea, but this performance element or this, know, embodying a written character or something that's a little bit more structured or final that that
SPEAKER (09:00)
peaked your curiosity. what about it? Like, how did you kind of end up at that discovery or that conclusion? I felt I liked the live performance aspect of improv and the adrenaline of about to go on stage. Live theater is a little bit like that. You have a script. Every performance is different. So I enjoy that. I think it was the nice anxiety and a little bit of the stamp.
whatever chemicals produce when you're about to go on stage. think it was that. Combined with, I felt really comfortable being, like for example, I'm typically perceived as a nice guy, easy to get along with, but man, I want permission to be an asshole. And I still, to this day, prefer taking the asshole roles or the evil roles or whatever. So I think having...
have an ability to act out that role and still come back to me combined with the live performance. And I started in theater. That's where a lot of it, you get to explore that of the live performance. Every audience is going to give you a different show, the characters that you play. It was very different because I got my initial training in theater. was the shirt left. yeah. Audition. He's got his book. Yeah. Do you go through the acting studio of Chicago down on Grand?
Yes, exactly. think we're the best. In River North on Hubbard Street. took all the first of the core level classes and was it? Yeah. So all the guideposts, whatever 12 guideposts or whatever. But doing it, improv was very hard. It was fun, but it was very hard. There was a lot of pressure to make people laugh. Acting is not like that people can laugh. Obviously if you're in a comedy versus drama or whatever it is. So I think some of that pressure came off with like
It has to be funny. have to think of something on the spot. I rather improvise when something doesn't necessarily go as well, like on stage, for example. I still use it everywhere at work or when I perform. What led you to Shirt Lift and the acting studio Chicago? Had you maybe taken a couple of courses at Second City and through just...
SPEAKER (11:16)
conversations with your peers. You're like, all right, I'll check out this flow. Like, no, I didn't know acting at Second City. It was just improv. I'm trying to recall. think maybe someone at Second City recommended it or I just did some Googling. can't I can't recall. But it was immediately it was like not more than a two month gap that I enrolled in. Yeah. I mean, anyone I talked to wants to like get better at acting in Chicago, I tell them to go there just because I like any studio that
seeks to demystify and it's like just practical, really practical skills and tools that help you, you know, understand the text and make choices rather than the mystery or, you know, the inner state of the psychology, which I think is like a lot of deep digging. But hey, anyone's process works for them. I just think I'm more interested in like here's 20 tools you can use to play on stage or on screen rather than you got to like destroy your psyche just to embody a character.
When it came to this transition of say less improv, also like I think improvising has a high risk of a lack of quality control. And I wonder if like the left brain part of you is just like, man, I don't know half of the ensemble this week or the lack of direction is making for less quality versus say something that's written and rehearsed. There's more consistency. Did that, did that have any play of like a thought around just quality in general? You know, I never thought of that, but perhaps now that, now that you mention it, I am very logical left brain.
At the same time, I enjoy being in the right brain and the creative side because I get away from that. There is rarely any wrong or right. It's more how you feel rather than how you think. But yeah, maybe there was. I just found it very difficult, not stressful, but I just found it very difficult to be always got a, you know, something super funny or whatever. But
Maybe there was a little bit of that was was creeping in a little bit like, hey, let's give me some give me a frame or something at least. Do you think that was a shortcoming of, teachers or perspective that was provided within the context of improvising? Because I think it's problematic that it's like the belief of like, have to be funny now. So was this just the the institutions or the teachers or the perspectives that were laid on you that like you need to be funny? Because I think with the proper direction or a proper
SPEAKER (13:40)
principles or philosophy, like improvisation, you could have a successful show that's, you know, 75 % laughs and 25 % humanity. So I'm just curious, like, where do you find that pressure? Like, what instilled that pressure of like, be funny now? Is that a personal hangup or was that dictated to you by institutional principles? You know, I can't recall. I think largely, I think we become our own worst critic and judge and we're very tough on ourselves. So maybe it was me.
But coming from the second city, you have all these people that come, you see the walls, and it's decorated with a lot of very talented folks. And I guess I was surrounded by a lot of very funny people. And it wasn't a competition. The nice thing about ensembles, you can have an off night, and then you lean on your ensemble. So maybe it was a mix of both, but maybe if I had to choose, maybe it really came from me where I felt like,
If I didn't get the laughs or I didn't get the high fives after or whatever, then maybe I wasn't good enough. Totally. Yeah. It's just something when I think of like creativity and one's approach to any medium, it's like really uncovering or looking into what are the thoughts or the judgments I have of this medium. You know, like if I believe it unexamined that like if I'm on stage, I need to be funny all the time. And then I think that unexamined belief might create more problems.
And for me, when it comes to say filmmaking, it's the unexamined belief. This needs to be image forward, right? It's all about the image. can't be about the dialogue, can't be about the sound or whatever. And that's an unexamined thought of like, yeah, a story can be a story. It doesn't need to be purely cinematic. It can be dialogic or it can be something else. It could be tonal. It could be experimental. What part of your process has that examination of potential judgments that might inhibit more play or more creative expression? I would say maybe that
Maybe that came from myself or it was just my inexperience with the whole thing. know, just to me, I was going in there as something off the cuff. One class. And then, are you going to take the next class? And it was it was largely a camaraderie. Right. Yeah. The community with the bond, I think all the five classes to the end, I think maybe almost 10 of us stayed together. So that was kind of cool.
SPEAKER (16:01)
Again, it's like the more you study something, I spent 10 plus years doing theater and improvisation. it's like the it's to just follow a cohort and go, yeah, I'm here. I'm here for learning. I'm here for play rather than you want to become an expert in it. So maybe you're not. You weren't actively seeking the various schools of thoughts and like the history of it, which is like totally fine. So you finish you finish the course.
And then, you know, how how was the transition to say like doing theater work and screen work and going out for auditions? What was that like for you? Oh, I felt very comfortable, be honest, maybe doing it in that order, doing some improv that you really have no safety net and then you go into acting. Oh, there's a script. Yeah, here's the beginning. Here's an end. I felt comfortable. I also enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. Similar to the second city at Acting Studio Chicago, the last class.
You perform it, you invite people, friends, and... I'm a little nervous, but I think it's that good, nervous energy. I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed every part of it. I was very diligent. I met up with my scene partner, at least the minimum, if not more, if they were also available. So I was really into it. I was really getting into it.
I I did that as well. It's like a sort of a scene study. The instructor directs, you know, I think 10 scenes that you're in with your scene partner. And then it's like at the studio, you invite friends and family to see those scenes that you worked, right? Yep. That's how it worked. And not a month later, I audition for a student film for somebody from Columbia College. I got it. connection. Someone at my corporate job was also in the film. Unbeknownst to both of us. But it was a
Big you talk about because the training I got was for stage and it was a film. So I went from being big and bold and expressive and sometimes over exaggerate to being told by the director, hey, it's not a performance. Right. So mute it down. So that was a learning curve that but I'm glad I did it stage first and screen versus the other way around. Right. I found you have there's a little bit of an adjustment going from
SPEAKER (18:16)
the stage to the screen with the emotions and how big you are. Yeah, yeah, like really focusing it in. think screen acting allows for a little bit more of technical mindfulness of the body while stage acting is like you have more style and more expression at your tool belt to project out to the whole audience. I think the audience is a way more forgiving for tone, right? Like a tone that sounds performed.
the audience's air will habituate to it versus realism is so baked into the expectations of screen acting. So when it came to learning how to say screen actor, dial your performance style that would be more appropriate to the intention of the screen director, what did you do? Did you take any screen acting courses or did you just look at the monitor or have conversations with a variety of different directors to learn like, can focus the energy in the eyes and say,
the breath or large physical gesture. think I learned by just doing it when getting coaching by directors. My very first director, it was a tough and I think because of me, we ended up staying like till two o'clock in the morning. Shooting it, shoot and then I didn't know that once I've screwed up, keep going because they can edit. But I stopped and it made everything difficult and they had to redo. So I think that was a big learning lesson.
I don't think I took another, and I took Meisner, but this was like two years ago, but I don't think I took a specifically a screen acting class. I kind of adapted and got guidance from the projects I was on, the directors I was with, and also just from working with other actors who've done both. Are you currently like predominantly looking at screen work or stage work? Like what's your approach when it comes to say finding auditions or booking gigs?
You know, I like them both. however, the problem with me is I have with the day job, I do have a lot of flexibility, but I still have to work about 37 hours a week. So time is very important. So I tend to be very picky of what I work on because I don't just have that much time. I still lean more towards theater on the stage because it's just nothing like it. It's this very beautiful experience, but it requires a lot of time and not much pain.
SPEAKER (20:36)
versus the reverse, like commercials and industrials. Man, if I can get one or two of those a week, I'd be set. Then I can work on indie films and shorts and whatever and all the cool stuff. things that have a lot of meaning come from true stories or passion projects for people. So it tends to be a mix, but yeah, right now I'm open to both. Now I'm at this point where, okay, I'm gonna be a little bit more selective, not just because of time, because
Maybe I'm going to look at more lead roles now versus just take anything. Right. I've been playing a priest and the mom and a father like so many times. I think, you know, I tend to break out of that. Maybe I can. Maybe I can't. So things like that. I'm open to both. But at this point, I'm looking one of my goals. I'd like to be in a.
in a feature film. Well, BAM counts, I think I like a bigger role. Yeah, supporting player. A lead role in a feature film and a lead role. I recently took a Shakespeare class with Invictus Theater with Charles. because I didn't know because I don't I didn't read Shakespeare. didn't know much of it. Yeah. And man, it's tough. Not only the delivery of the emotions, but I have to translate it to figure out what it means, et cetera. So I recently started
auditioning for Shakespeare. So the goal next year is to be in one Shakespeare that supporting whatever it is. Just want some experience. Yeah, that's that's exciting to have sort of those challenges and go out of your comfort zone, not like the sort of toolbox of realism that you've probably become a little bit more familiar with. Do you currently have an agent and is that agent also sending you out? Because I you mentioned industrious and commercials, so I'm curious, is that something that you're going out for and occasionally audition for in book? yeah, yeah.
I have two agents. That's where I get the big ones. The commercials, industrials, the well-paying ones, though, they get a cut. I get through them. I just had a Chicago PD audition. I've never booked any one Chicago show. I think one rite of passage for any Chicago actors to be on one of them. I get to do them. every two months, I get either a PD, a FIRE, or an MD audition. And I've only gotten one check avail or a pin.
SPEAKER (23:00)
Yeah, how have you been navigating maybe the inner state, the psychological state of like when you're not selected, you you go through maybe a callback or a second callback and you're on check a bell. Like what what's your approach to the headspace of not booking auditions? I got used to it pretty quickly. I think you fail most of the time here, or at least I do 80, 90 percent of the time I'm going to fail, not fail, but I'm not going to book it. Right. I try to learn. There is a platform to ask for feedback.
It's rare too, but if I feel I invested time or it's a callback or whatever, just I have a connection or an in, I'll ask for feedback. And oftentimes I do get, and that's been helpful. The least helpful is when it's a nationwide casting call. And then you're one of hundreds or maybe thousands and you feel like you hit it and then nothing. That is the most discouraging, but it's part of the business.
just learn to adapt. So what's your current approach to auditioning? like, how do you how do you you know, how do you approach it? And then I have a bunch of follow ups. But I'm just curious, like, currently, how are you approaching auditions? Well, if it's a self tape, I have a little area where I do myself, so tapes all quiet. I have a big network of readers that can help me read virtually if I need a reader. Is that through like a platform like a virtual platform for readers? Yeah, there's a Facebook group. And I also know a lot of actors who we trade.
I'll read for them, they read for me and I can reach out to them. Sometimes I don't get more than 70, maybe 48 hours on average for one of the big auditions. So it's quick turnaround time. So for self tapes, that's my thing. Co-stars, smaller roles, they're usually five lines or less, so not a lot of memorization. What's going to be different? What's going to make my tape potentially stand out? Are they going to look at it more than eight seconds? Yeah, that's been my...
I haven't been so successful in that one. The in-person, I prefer the in-person ones. Mostly theater. You get to see the people, you get to read the room. There could be some interaction afterwards. You have the feedback, whether they're super quiet and intent hanging on your every word when you pause, or are they laughing if you do a lot of comedic monologues and stuff like that. So I prefer the in-person auditions.
SPEAKER (25:24)
When it comes to say like standing out, like what do you do, at least in preparation for any given role or audition, like to inject your point of view or your perspective or your take or your attitude about the world, the text, the character, like how is that wrapped up and integrated into your audition process? And maybe testament that maybe I need to tweak it. what I've heard from others and what I did well that one time I got a check availed.
is I did something different either at the beginning or at the end, more likely the beginning or something in the middle and not exactly do the opposite just to be opposite and to be opposite of what everyone does, but just do something a little bit differently. That's going to be like, that's different because you can imagine, hey, you just witnessed a gun shooting and you're writing the blue line or whatever. And it's going to be a lot of hectic. But what if you thought it was like
you're trying to get to a really important meeting or you're trying to get to the hospital and someone's really and like this happens it's like the last thing so trying to do something a little bit different and I found that talking to others that's how they book they usually add a little tweak to the more common delivery most likely actors are going to do X. Yeah.
So they'll do why and it's just a little bit different enough to get noticed. think it's important to like think about not to the point of like contrivance and manufacturing or just sort of want and randomness. But you know, this last project I casted for, you know, there's about a 1200 submissions, went through like 1200 reels and resumes and of the 1200 asked for about 150 self tape monologues. And I would say 90 % of them were six or seven out of 10. They were nice. They were polite. They were just like,
I am doing the thing how it's supposed to be done. But those ones that kind of got into the eight out of 10 scorecard or the nine out of 10 scorecard, they had a very distinct approach attitude, take opinion within, within their audition. And I think it's like taking that moment to really put your world on to this character, this moment versus like going for stereotype, going for archetype. I just saw someone shot. Maybe I'll gasp. Like that's all fine.
SPEAKER (27:40)
but what's a person who has a child in the hospital for cancer and they're trying to get to work or they're trying to get to the hospital for the last day and then they see a shooting. Like how is that person going to mourn or project outwards? So I think yeah, having perspective. And the other question is same with auditions. like, how do you integrate mischief and risk? Because of those say 150 I saw in this last audition, the majority are six or seven out of 10, because there's very little.
mischief, very little risk. So do you like, how do you integrate that mindfulness when it comes to the audition process? It's tough. Sometimes I want to do like, do it right. Usually for the bigger ones, they're open to multiple takes. So I do one kind of safe and let's say it's like over the top, then I'll do a very contrasting one. If you're going to do multiple, make them very different because
you as reviewing one thousand two hundred self-tapes. I'm like, man, I've seen this so many times. So make it different. And I think in the different one, that's where I'll be a little bit more risky, a little bit more mischievous. And they actually just come in and just forget everything that I did. I might even take a break, talk, banter with the actor or whatever who's reading with me or whatever. It's just, yeah. And they might even help us like, hey, just think that this way. You're coming in there. It's like whatever. And that's been so helpful. Reset, reframe and you go in.
to it and it does end up coming out a little bit differently. For the instances where you say have only one take and you're whether it's a self tape or you're in the room, how do you make sure you integrate point of view and mischief or risk taking versus like, you know, letting kind of fear or conformity lead you toward say just a safe or expected, you know, audition? I think for self tape is going to be easier. Yeah, because I can.
see it right after and I'm like, hmm. And I have more leniency to fail and I'll do it. I'll just re-tape it again. So I think that one's a little bit easier. In the room, whoa, things change. And even if it's just one person or sometimes I was at an open call, what was it for Metropolis? My God, 15 people. I was not expecting.
SPEAKER (29:57)
15 people. So even though you know the content, let's say it's a monologue and you're really comfortable with it, you have a different way, you've done it so many different ways and you're if they even if they ask you to do it differently, you can. Once you walk in that room, something else clicks in and then you go into safe mode, at least for me. And then the safe mode kicks in and maybe I won't I won't deliver that 10. Maybe I revert to safe and it's really a six or seven.
Interesting. Yeah, I remember reading a book, I think it was called performing under pressure. And the central thesis is like, you will never be as optimal as you are when you are rehearsing or developing the work by yourself, then you are in front of a performance performance. So like the when athletes are practicing, they will be the most optimal in practice settings. And then when it's, you know, a playoff game, it'll be
suboptimal, like all the literature points. So again, maybe they'll be at a 75 % or 73%. So it's similar to like have that mindfulness of the daring I can take in a rehearsal environment or when I'm like privately self-taping is going to be eroded by the nature of suboptimal performance when it comes to being in front of a group of strangers. So like you have that awareness of instances where you might revert to say it.
well, I've done it this way before and it got some laughs and it's it's got me the role. But do you in terms of your process for auditions, are you currently using tools or do you think you have tools to go? You know what? How do I break through that fear? How do I break through that impulse to just dial it from an eight back to like a six point seven? I do have tools and enrolled in this training online right after the pandemic. I had a book stop and all this script analysis and then tools of how to
even do the lines and deliver, et cetera. But I still, don't think I've nailed it to the point and made it a science. Yeah. Sometimes I do my, I do, I do get in a state of comfort. And when I say, you know what, the result doesn't matter. The audition is a job. I'm just showing up. I'm going to do the job. Maybe it's just a one show job and the show is very short. 10 minutes, but I'm there and all the pressure goes off, you know,
SPEAKER (32:17)
I'm going to have, it's not my first edition, auditions, not my last, I'm going to have more. And then when I let go of the result, let go of the outcome, I tend to relax a little bit more completely, but maybe that would help. Because I do get the analogy with the sports, because I see soccer players, some of the best players in the world miss penalty kicks. These are the things that they should get done because of how, you know, they are the best players and they get paid a lot of money and they've been doing it for a while.
but yet they miss. And nothing else but nerves and a lot of people watching us. Again, that awareness, right? Whatever tools they be or sort of psychological elements of in the moment or a code word or a touchstone or what is whatever it is. I think reverting back to focusing on the process in the play. Because what I realized after doing a decade plus of like
performance and theater and auditions was before I moved into say, know, image making and a production company and making shorts and writing features was like, yeah, I never, rarely took risks in auditions. I spent 10 years of doing seven out of 10. And like that became part of, well, why, why live a life if I'm just sort of like playing it safe. So now that I'm just aware of it, finding things that are just a little bit out of the comfort zone, but still it's that, that.
the moments to have that awareness and go, shoot, there's 15 people in here. I'm really excited about Steppenwolf. How can I play this as hard as I can rather than, you know, how can I make the byproduct of my performance something they might choose? Yeah, I think once you hit that, that's that's the magic. It's awesome. Even if you do have that awareness and you're able to do it some of the time. I don't know if many people are able to do that every time. Yeah, maybe they are.
If you can do it every time, it's still out of your context dictates the decision, right? So like you might kill it and be present and make really risky, mischievous point of view driven choices and actions. And the room is laughing and they're dying because it's so fresh. But then you walk out and they're like, oh, man, you know, our second lead is five to and this this guy's six one. It'll just look weird or I don't know if they'll have chemistry. like there's that.
SPEAKER (34:30)
those things that are out of your control, which I think is the actor's plight. So like, how do you, how do you like de- personalize non-selection and, you know, put it in a context? Yeah, no, I think that's a good point. That, when I first started auditioning and applying to gigs, it very, very clearly said brown or ethnically ambiguous or white, even the age range. So it was very different to the corporate world where you do not ask those things.
There is comfort in knowing that, you know what? I may be too brown, I may be too tall, I may be too short, or it doesn't make sense for this dude to be the son of whatever or the father of whatever. So there is some comfort in a lot of it. I don't know how much of it, but a lot of it tends to be subjective of what the feeling is at the moment. It may not be the content or the expertise, but how do they see you with the rest?
of the yeah, and any given creative projects can have a different sort of ethos and approach like for me, because I produce or direct mostly what I've written that like if I see someone bring something really interesting in the casting audition, I'm like, all right, I'm to change like 23 % of the script or 80 % of the script, because I think this is the the approach or the direction but most you know, any other project might be a different approach. So it's like to have that that thought and go like,
Yeah, it's out of my control. Did I play? Did I commit? Did I take a swing? Did I provide a perspective that was my own? Maybe it's fresh. Maybe it's not. I'm curious when you just going back just a little bit with you reviewing one thousand two hundred self tapes. Do you view? Did you view each and every one till the end? Or did you like you saw the first few seconds like, yeah, I've seen enough.
For me, love people who act and I love people who perform and I have respect for the daring of their craft. So even if within three to six seconds, I'm like, no, I would watch the rest of the monologue, whether it was a 60 second or a 90 second. I think I gave the direction like, please be less than 60 seconds. So I watched in 60 seconds. If it was like 92 seconds, I'm like, kid, you're not following directions and it's too long. But for me, that's my approach. I respect the craft.
SPEAKER (36:53)
other casting directors or other projects, maybe not and kudos to them. But it's part of my process as a, just a way to keep me grounded and say like, respect that they spent 10, 15, however long to submit this self-tape. Okay, cool. But I think I'm probably on the anomalous side. I imagine most folks are like, nah, not, not the vibe or it's eight seconds in, they're technically flawed or whatever, but you never know. Some, some might be a completists.
So moving a little bit away from auditions around book roles. So say, for example, for BAM, what was that experience like for you? Was that your first feature to be a sort of supporting player? had you done a couple other features? No, I think that was my first feature. It's mainly been shorts on screen. And that was, my god, that was so much fun. No, great. Jordan, apparently, and it's online, some critic or whatever was interviewing Jordan.
And he got to my part. He's like, yeah, Brandon, right. Be right. We call him, said a couple of days. Yeah, you're to be driving his car. He's like, I don't have a license. So he reached out to me. We've been in contact. I've auditioned for some of his stuff. We didn't live far from each other. He's in LA now, but he reached out to me. He's like, hey, are you available this weekend? Either Saturday or Sunday. I can do Saturday, but I need to, I have a hard stop at five. And I became the Uber driver.
And he gave some direction. gave us like, here's the here's the situation. A few lines, but 80 % of the whole scene was improvised by me and Brandon. And it was so much fun. It felt very organic. All that stuff came out. And then Jordan will say that in an interview and these really, really nice, easy person to work with. They'll give you a lot of latitude, just give you some framing. So I think that set the tone and it was just
very organic, we did a lot of improvisation, getting back to the improv on my role, my scene with Brandon in BAM. great. Yeah, know, buddies with Jordan and glad to hear it was pretty freewheeling and improvisation process, fair amount of ad-libbing in it. Impressive, like a small crew. So it's, glad to hear that you also had a solid time. Very impressive. $12,000 budget. Yeah. With the sort of staying sharp, like
SPEAKER (39:12)
You know, you're not necessarily, you know, you got a day job. I got a job as well. Like how how do you practice, you know, staying sharp, sharpening the saw, doing reps, doing drills? Like what's what's kind of your daily, weekly, monthly way to stay connected in terms of, you know, the toolkit and being flexible and limber? I would say about weekly, I would say on average about weekly, maybe bi-weekly.
I'm always going to have some kind of audition, whether it's me applying to a theater gig, because my agents won't really submit me to theater gigs or doing one of their auditions that they submitted me for. So whether auditioning directly for myself, I sometimes volunteer my time for that group. I think it's called Self Tape Actors for Self Tape or whatever rehearsal, because I've gotten a lot of help from a lot of people very quickly and they're willing to jump online and help.
help you read and not just read words, but they're actors who you can have a little bit more depth to their reading. So I volunteer for that or take classes. If I see a gap and there's a gap between, you know, between my last gig and the next season or whatever, like that Shakespeare class that I took, I'll take a class. it comes to say your agents, do you find that there's a consistent ask for say auditions? Do you think is that fairly consistent or is it, you know, one month?
I didn't hear from them the other month I was asked to do. I might have been a good fit for 10 roles. What's the consistency or level of communication there? It's been pretty consistent given the demand, the market and how some like for the one Chicago shows a lot of casting agencies moved to LA or now they're altogether different except for maybe one or so. But despite that, it's been pretty consistent. Generally, it's been slower this year, but I would have to say they're pretty consistent. I'm seeing less commercials.
less commercial and industrial work. And I didn't mention this earlier, but two years back, I took a high A's or sabbatical from my day job. I was not in a good job and toxic. I'm like, you know, screw you. I have enough savings. I can live like I do now. I won't have to sacrifice any quality of life at least a year. That's all I did. All I did was acting and I was booking.
SPEAKER (41:31)
commercials and industrials often, but not enough to forever. Like the goal eventually to become a working actor, not famous, not rich, just be a working actor. And I did that for almost a year. Coffee shops, my day, my weeks was based Thursday through Sunday as performing or rehearsal. And then Sunday through Wednesday or whatever, was kind of like my weekend off and it was awesome. I do not regret it.
The next time I do that, we'll be forever. Yeah. Cause that seems like to be the long-term goal, right? To sort of go into just a working actor, right? Whether it's character work, commercial work, feature work, stage work, to just make a comfortable, modest livelihood or whatever it be doing this crap. Yes, exactly. That's the goal. How do you think you're going to approach like finding those lead roles for say a feature? Only apply for lead roles. mean, that's the easiest way I can...
I'm also with the people I've worked with before, I can be very candid versus someone new. I'm like, hey, so and so, we've worked together in the past. if they're considering, like someone else, I did a play at the Athenium Center in Lakeview or Athenium Theater. It was awesome experience. And now they're thinking of doing another new work in spring. And they're like, Jorge, would you be interested? I'm like, yeah, depends on the role and rehearsal schedule.
But yeah, I'd be with them, I'd be more have more confidence because they've seen my work, they reached out again. was like, I would love to work with you. But now at this time, I'm being more selective about role, for example. That's kind of the way I'm trying to approach it. Maybe it'll backfire and maybe I'd rather be busy and working versus holding out for that lead role. That's the what does that symbolize? Right. Because like I believe work begets work. And I would rather, you know, have
20 supporting roles in one year than zero lead roles. So like what is the psychology or what is the identity of it needs to meet this criteria? I'm just curious. I guess for me, it adds a challenge of, yeah, it's the next challenge for me. Like if you compare it to the corporate world, you're here and maybe the senior person is here and now you're the architect and now you're the lead. So maybe I'm equating it to corporate life and that's the next like
SPEAKER (43:50.622)
step in the ladder, but I find lead roles more challenging. When I did one with Christian Mejia while he was here, I found it fascinating. If it was a four-day shoot, I was on set all four days. And I like that. I like being on set from the beginning to the end. like not the pressure, but just I have a lot of work. if I'm going to be part of a production and a play or in a thing, and I'm already committed to the time and the rehearsal and all that,
I want the output as well. So I want to be out there, whether it's on stage or on screen as well. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I think, you know, I chatted with a couple other folks about this, but I reread Steven Pressfield's The War of R usually every year and near the end of his book, he speaks to approaches and there's a hierarchical approach and a territorial approach and the risk of hierarchical approach is that you're
creating your identity or your value based on where you are in the chain. So you're trying to scrape up so you can beat whoever's above you and try to keep from anyone below you from getting in that role. So I think just having that mindfulness of my acting hierarchically versus say, territorially, which is where do I go to do the work? Is that on stage? Is that in an audition room to self tape? Is that on the page to write things down and to practice finding community or putting in your reps through shared territory?
And at the same time, think from you clarifying it, sounds like it's about challenge and risk, right? So I imagine if you do see a supporting role that is an interesting or a challenging language or character or risky type project, you would put your name in the hat. I just think the risk is like, if you're only focusing on lead stuff, you might gloss over, you know, some sides or synopsis that just doesn't have something that quite aligns with where your head's at.
Yeah, that's a point. If you love the thing, you'd want to do the thing as much. And at the same time, you don't want to be, you know, abusive husband number one who has two lines on a student film that you've you've got your student film reps in. Right. So it's like that thing of risk and challenge that you create that boundary. So just wrapping things up like, do you have a criteria of like what makes the role stand out to you beyond just say like the the the lead designation?
SPEAKER (46:09.644)
I like edgy and like controversial. fact that people leave the play or the movie, they're like talking about it. And they're angry that they're talking about it. I've been I've talked about movies that talk with people. I like the movie, but they don't like it. It's like, well, but you know what? We're talking about it and we're still talking about the film. So it did something. So something like that to be part of that would be really cool. Just in terms of final thoughts, has there been one thing this year that.
has been minor that you've been doing that has had an outsized impact. Like, I'm just curious about one small routine or one small habit that has really had a solid impact on your life or your creative life or whatnot. A small routine. I think, well, one thing I think we already mentioned this is from talking to other actors who have booked on one Chicago show, co-star or guest star or whatever, and in that feedback, hey, this is what I did. And that one time I did try it.
The odds are already high. The one time I did try it, that's when I got a check the bail. I think that's one thing I tried. Have I been able to reproduce it two times after? No, but I think that's one thing, one small tweak that I did that actually kind of worked. Yeah, I think that's a great thing to be mindful of. And I would pitch like one of my, I wouldn't call it a pet peeve, but one thing I've noticed that evokes the most or inspires the most impatience or boredom is someone makes one choice and then they just play that.
tone or vibe for the next 30, 60 seconds, because then it just becomes like a metronome. It's like anger, anger, anger, anger, sadness, sadness, sadness. So my pitch is if you can do it or the text allows it every three to nine seconds, you are doing a different action, a different tone, a different vibe. I would rather someone seem manic and psychotic in an audition by the sheer volume and variety of tax and energies than they just play this one note.
at the same level. Even a progressive note might be a little bit better than the one note. So yeah, that'd be my pitch to you. yeah, have that moment before that strong entrance and strong exit. Because if the energy is the same at the beginning of the audition as the end of the audition, then you fucked up, in my opinion. Yeah. No, I think that's very... I get bored of myself watching it. And then the stuff that I'm very tuned in, yes, they go up and down and there's...
SPEAKER (48:31.384)
There's sarcasm, but then there's quite, yeah. Yeah. Injecting humor too. Like if you have 60 seconds in an audition and a monologue, if there's not one single pull for a laugh or a little bit of humor, even the most depressing and bleak monologues, if you can't have a moment of irony or self-awareness as the character, a little bit of cheekiness, then it's also to me a sign of a, actor doesn't know how to play humans or play that lightness. So like,
Variety is a really, I put a high premium on point of view, but also variety is I think important. Jorge, was absolute delight getting to chat and it was so nice to see you perform in BAM and I look forward to the next time we see each other around Chicago. Thanks, me too, appreciate it.
Before setting you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation.
Here is your creative prompt. Record yourself telling a short story, I don't know, one to two minutes of something absolutely mundane. Your commute, making coffee, whatever, one to two minutes. And then tell the exact same story, but this time remove all filler words like, um, like, know, and add intentional spicy, tasty pauses or moments. Then listen to them both and notice how that may or may not shift the presence, the energy of your story.
Yeah, I think it's a fun exercise. know my filler words tends to be like, so yeah, and you know, those are my go-to and I'm sure I'll get a lot more, but that's the prompt. Record yourself telling a little mundane story and do it twice, do it thrice. Inspire the challenge of mindfully telling something and practicing at home. So give it a shot. Tell me what you think.
SPEAKER (50:40.91)
Hope you enjoy it and I'll see you next time.