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Join us, feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp, for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy thoughts as we make sense of the world around us. If you also want to create a more just and equitable world, please join us on the journey to Messy Liberation.
Taina Brown: Hello. How are you?
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm great. How are you?
Taina Brown: I'm doing good. was a very newsworthy weekend, I guess.
Becky Mollenkamp: Is that ever an understatement? This will actually come out a week after the weekend, right? So we're in the middle of the week. This will come out on Monday. So we're talking about the week before where everyone knows the big news story, which is the I'm going to use air quotes “assassination attempt” against Trump.
Taina Brown: Yeah because I'm still not 100 % sold on the idea that it was random and not staged.
Becky Mollenkamp: Listen, I'm gonna just, I'll stand firm in that as well. I don't have any information. I cannot say that. And I also, there's this part of me that hates the way the left is now feeling very conspiracy theorist like the MAGA right has been. And it's undeniable that the whole thing is very odd. At minimum, let's say odd. Like that should have never been able to happen. And the fact that it was able to happen is odd.
Taina Brown: Yeah absolutely, absolutely. And when you make a career off of lying, like, and promoting violence, like, how do you expect people to respond to a supposed attempt on your life? Like, I don't, I don't believe in promoting violence.
Becky Mollenkamp: The whole thing was very, just everything the way that played out. that's not, lest you're tired of hearing about that, that is not what we're here to talk about specifically. But the fallout from that and some of the things that have happened since, we were just gonna touch on a few like things that have been happening in the zeitgeist, the political and cultural zeitgeist, I love that word, related to the fallout of that whole thing. Because as if things weren't divisive enough.
Taina Brown: It's not.
Becky Mollenkamp: I feel like what happened that weekend, whatever it was that happened that weekend, has really exacerbated the divisiveness. And now there are just these things that are showing up that are really showcasing that. And so where do we start? We have a few things.
Taina Brown: Yeah, we do have a few things. think before we start, I want to make clear, and I don't know where you stand on this, Becky, but I want to make clear that my position is that unity with people who are actively oppressing other people is not the thing to be calling for right now. Sometimes you need division, sometimes you need that separation. And so this false idea of, let's all come together because we're all in this together. No, the fuck we're not. Like we weren't all in this together when Ahmaud Aubry was shot in his Southern Georgia hometown. We weren't all in this together when George Floyd was killed, right? So I just want to make that clear. We have not.
Becky Mollenkamp: And friend, we've never been all in this together, right? This country, I feel like where we are is the logical conclusion, and I'm scared to say that I do feel like it's becoming the conclusion of an experiment that began with genocide and then was built on the backs of stolen labor from humans. Like there's no way that this isn't where we would go. We've never been united. There's never a great America that we're trying to get back to like all of it to me is mind boggling and this call for for unity from the most divisive human that has ever been in politics. What they mean and it's very clear is not let's be united. is everyone needs to fall in line behind this man now and so no I do not feel like I owe him them anyone anything or any degree of even like politeness or humanity. Like honestly, like the fact that people feel like they have to now show up and I get it, the politicians, I still don't love it, but they're politicians. But when I'm seeing average people and I think this may be where we'll start then on my little list of things, because when you see someone and not to say that Jack Black is average, but when you see non -politicians doing the same thing of this like, I better fall in line and like I need to condone these things and I need to say the right thing and I need to not look like I am, you know, even remotely pleased that maybe Trump won't run for office. Like, just, it pisses me right off. So let's start with Tenacious D, who you didn't, you were like, who's that? Which is okay because you're not a bro and I'm not either. I only know them because of my husband. It's, I think, a middle -aged white man thing.
Taina Brown: Yeah, I did not know that name.
Becky Mollenkamp: Tenacious D is a band. They do a lot of mock music, like Weird Al kind of almost. I don't know. Listen, somebody's listening going, that's not them at all. I don't really know Tenacious D all that well either. But they are, it's two people, Jack Black, who everyone knows. He's an actor and quite famous. And then his buddy, I think they're very good friends. They've been in this band for decades. And I think they also do like skits and stuff. But his friend, Kyle Gass. And over the weekend, the most recent weekend, we, no, guess the weekend before this will air also. Anyway, whatever. The same, yeah. Right after the Trump ear graze is what I keep calling it, which by the way, apparently it might not even be that. It might just be the ear chipping because it was like a chipped glass.
Taina Brown: So about a week and a half after two weeks off. Listen, I have a gap in my ear from where an earring fell off and nobody's paying me this much attention. Obviously, I don't want this much attention, but all that to say anyway, move on.
Becky Mollenkamp: My favorite are the people who have been posting these photos with like a giant Maxi pad on their ear and like I nicked my ear like what do I get pay attention to me anyway so at a concert in Australia Kyle gas it was his birthday who is one half of tenacious D so they gave him a birthday cake he was blowing out the candles they asked him what does he wish for he said in front of this large audience in Australia I wish they wouldn't miss Trump next
Everyone laughed, hilarity ensued. People weren't terribly upset from everything. I have been, I've looked at what people who are like Australians who are not getting the U .S. version of the news, but in Australia saying like, we thought it was funny. You Americans are weird with your lack of sense of humor. We can't understand you. But it was recorded. Someone saw it. It started to make the rounds. And lo and behold, there was an uproar, right, about how dare you say such a thing. Political violence is awful, we need to be more united. political violence has no place in American history. That's my favorite thing that's in American politics.
Taina Brown: I'm so over the whole political violence narrative. It's like someone crafted that as a talking point and sent a mass email to every notable influencer kind of person in this country and across the world and said, this is the language that we're going to use. I'm so over that shit.
Becky Mollenkamp: Anyone who has any understanding of American history and not the American history that MAGA wants you to learn, but actual American history would understand the political violence not only has a place in American history, is part, yes, of American history. From the beginning, we started through a revolution, right? And have continued to have.
Taina Brown: Cornerstone from the very beginning.
Becky Mollenkamp: One political leader after another assassinated, how many presidents? I think it's five that have either been assassinated. I think it was five that have and 20 that there's been attempts. Like more presidents have had an attempt on their life than haven't. So to pretend as if this is unusual is wild. And then think about all of the people who aren't presidents but are very much involved in politics, MLK, know, Malcolm X, right? I mean...
Taina Brown: Yeah, death threats, assassination attempts, Killing by the FBI and the police state, basically.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right. So I'm going with that was off on a tangent, but to say this whole narrative that this political violence has no place or violence has no place in our politics is bullshit. And so they can't that made the rounds. People started to get upset with Jack Black specifically because nobody knows who Kyle Gass, his friend, is unless you're a Tanisha Stephen. But everybody knows Jack Black and, you know, he's a very big and well -paid movie star. And so by now, yesterday. So it made the rounds for a couple of days. As we're recording this, was yesterday. So like four days after the concert, they made the decision. And everything I've been reading is Jack Black made the decision. I don't know if that's true or if it was a joint decision, but because he's the bigger star, they're saying it was his choice. But they made the decision to cancel the remainder of the concerts, the remainder of their tour. And this is the quote. Listen. There's a part of me and I saw somebody else on thread say something that makes sense. Like there might be a very good reason to cancel the tour because for safety of them and the people that work for them, that may be fair because we know that MAGA right people love guns and will use them. The person who shot at Trump was a MAGA right person. And so they retaliation. get it. That may be valid. But here's what pissed me off. Jack, who's like, as far as I can tell, one of his very best friends in the world that he's been in this bandwidth for decades. Here's his quote that he put out yesterday or today? Yesterday. I was blindsided by what was said at the show on Sunday. I would never condone hate speech or encourage political violence in any form, he said in his statement on Instagram. After much reflection, I no longer feel it is appropriate to continue the tenacious Dtour and all future creative plans are on hold. All future, that means he is now not only kids in this tour, but saying, I won't even work with this man. This man who is his good friend, his creative partner that he has had a decades long relationship with over this one statement, he has thrown him to the curb. And why? Well, what do you think?
Taina Brown: And you know, I think it's interesting. first of all, and I was telling you this when we first was talking when we were first talking about this, but like, if you've ever seen Jack Black in an interview, like you know that he gives to he gives no fucks about like what people think about him. Like he is just who he is. He's outrageous. Like he's out there. Like his language is all over the place. Like, like it's definitely not like I'm not safe for work, kind environment when Jack Black is around. Like obviously he makes kids movies like Kung Fu Panda and all that and that's different but when he's just representing himself right like he is who he is and so to hear this kind of language in this apology tour right that he's on now like coming from Jack Black like one it's obvious he didn't write it and then two It begs the question, obviously, why, as you just said. And I was just thinking, right? And for those of you listening, I want you to know everything is connected. And I'm about to show you how some of these things are connected, right? So with the overturning of the Chevron ruling that the Supreme Court did last week or a couple of weeks ago, whenever, that whole ruling, that initial ruling back, I think it was in the 80s, was about regulating industries. So when the Supreme Court overturned that, now all of a sudden we're entering an era of deregulation where industries and corporations, it's basically a free for all. Like they no longer have to worry about someone or an authority figure or an institution trying to keep them in nd when you think about the entertainment industry, because that ruling is going to affect all different kinds of industries, and when you think about the entertainment industry and the people who own the majority of entertainment that we consume, it really goes back to five or six companies.
Becky Mollenkamp: And one of those big ones is owned by none other than Rupert Murdoch. Go ahead.
Taina Brown: Right. So when you think about those five or six billionaires who own entertainment industries, who now are about to embark in an era of deregulation where they can do whatever they want, basically, without being, without getting punished for it, without someone fact checking them, without someone saying this is harmful to people. And you understand how those five or six billionaires own their main corporation and then all these subsidiaries under that and then all the subsidiaries under that like that will trickle down to actors as big as Jack Black and as small as the backup dancers on Broadway, right? So So now you have this web of people who are like, fuck, I am gonna have to like fall in line with this propaganda that is trickling down from the top, or I'm gonna be out of work. And I think that's what we're seeing here with Jack Black. I think we're seeing capitalism and fascism and white supremacy, how they're all interconnected and how it is showing up in day -to -day life in ways that seem like completely unrelated, but in reality, it's not unrelated. It's like this giant web of people in positions of power who control most of what we experience on a day -to -day basis. And I never took Jack Black for the kind of person to be easily puppeted this way. And like you said, there might be a very valid reason, right? Because of retaliation and things like that. But yeah, taking it to the tour, but not, yes, yes, exactly. Like the whole political violence, was blindsided. Were you really blindsided? Because you've known this person for how long?
Becky Mollenkamp: To cancel the tour, not this, that apology. And let's not lie, the two of you were probably joking backstage about the same thing. There's no way you don't share that political belief. And just to think that you throw your friend to the wolves that easily and just be like, was him, I didn't know. And I don't want to even associate with him anymore. To protect yourself so that you, you're already rich. I can't believe Jack Black needs to work another day in his life. And that says a lot about what is to come. And I agree with you. What is to come? The fear that we are going to be living under, that we can't, that we no longer truly have free speech. It wasn't as if Kyle Gass said he wanted to shoot him. He was going to shoot him that, he, he made a joke and, it was a joke. And by the way, these are so that to be clear to you, Tenacious D is a comedic band, right? They, make funny songs. They do skits. They are comedians. Kyle Gass is a comedian. He is in, he has career of his own outside of tenacity as well as an actor, just not as big as Jack Black, but he's a comedic actor. They're making, it was a joke. It was a joke that we can't, that we have to worry about not being able to make those kinds of jokes or to have your own true beliefs is, terrifying. And I understand this whole notion around political violence. Where is that same vitriol and that same concern for Trump? Have you seen the videos of the man? There are compilations out there that you can find of him encouraging violence. Well, obviously, and even in smaller degrees, and his rally saying, go beat that guy up. Hey, somebody punch him in the face. He is known for constantly. And now we're supposed to believe he's the one that's going to unify us or that we have to now feel bad about wishing violence.
Taina Brown: I mean January 6th! Show empathy, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: Baffling and I agree the fact that it would be Jack Black and the thing that made me so That whole remember the thing going around a while back about would you choose the bear or a man in the woods? And I remember all these people on threads these women on threads saying the only man I would choose would be Jack Black all these women showing up saying Jack Black Jack Black He's so I just think he seems so awesome and he's very progressive and he's and he's so cool and all this stuff.
Taina Brown: That did not age well.
Becky Mollenkamp: No, he did not. And I just was saying today, like, remember when you all said you were going to pick Jack Black? And I said, nope, I won't even pick him. This is why he is clearly somebody who would, I mean, if he's going to throw his best friend to the bears, what's he going to do to you? Right? No, they're not trustworthy. White men, privileged men. And by the way, I say men, also white women, anyone with privilege. This just shows how quick people are to jump to save that privilege. And it is upsetting. Okay, can we, I want to move to more privilege because I think this is going to be relevant. Although you can tell me if we should go to sticker mule next, but I was going to go to JD Vance's wife because I think that story speaks to privilege as
Taina Brown: Yes, let's go there. Let's go there. I did have thoughts about it. What are your thoughts?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, because you had thoughts about it too. What is it? What's her name? I don't want to say her name wrong. Hold on. Let me look real quick because I want to make sure that I it's Usha. It's U S H A. So I believe it's Usha. Usha Vance. Usha or Usha Vance? Not her. Not him. Usha. I'm going say Usha because I feel like she's 38. They're young. These two. He's 39. She's 38. Very young.
Taina Brown: I honestly don't know what her name is, Usha. Not Usher, Usher, Usher, but yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: He wrote “Hillbilly Elegy.” We all know by now that Trump, Trump, I'm using air quotes again. We really just need everybody to watch the videos of this so you can see all my air quotes I use. Trump picked JD Vance to be his VP. No one believes Trump picked JD Vance to be his VP. We all know Heritage Foundation picked JD Vance to be the VP. They've been very clear for many years that JD Vance is their vision of the future for the Republican Party. And we know that Heritage Foundation is behind everything that's going on. That's Project 2025. If you don't know about it, please go read about these for the love of God, read about it. But so they picked JD Vance. Who's JD Vance? Well, his name's not even JD Vance. His name isn't even James Vance. His name is like John Vance or something. The man has changed his name many times. Vance is his third last name that he's used. Read about it. It's just wild. But the thing that's wild to me, so I would say I can understand him. He's a white man. He's got a lot of privilege. He tries to pretend like he's of the working Appalachian people, but the truth is that he's an Ivy League graduate. He's an opportunist. get it. But his wife, she is Indian American. She is a first generation birthright American, which is something that Project 2025 says we don't want to write. Yet here she is, first generation birthright American. They have three children together. One of whose name is Vivek. JD Vance has a child named Vivek, and yet here he is being this guy who shows up talking about immigration and the things that he supports against black and brown folks. And his wife is this Indian American woman, birthright. She's insanely smart. She has at least three degrees that I was able to find, including one in philosophy. She's a lawyer. She works at a very prestigious law firm in San Francisco, which we know is it. the firm bills itself as being a progressive, I think even called itself ultra progressive law firm, three college degrees, mom, she works, she just quit because of this. But she has until now been a civil litigator and like a very busy woman. And he has a very famous quote talking about,...The problem with liberals is they want these women working 90 hours a week instead of raising their kids. Yet his mother was someone who worked and worked hard and was very smart. His wife is someone who's very smart. I get him. I can't understand her. She was a registered Democrat at least until the time they got married a decade ago, at least until she was almost 30. She was a registered Democrat. So what the fuck? What the fuck? How does it happen? I can't. I can't get it. I'm torn between, this one of those things of like positionality, right? Of like, the proximity to whiteness, the proximity to masculine, maleness, the proximity to wealth and power. And that that is just so alluring that even someone who I would think should know better is like, I'll go along for this ride. Is she, has she been brainwashed? Has she, I don't know, there some weird programming thing that's happened? Has she been abused? don't like, I don't know any of that. I'm just, what is it? Or is she an opportunist of like, not even that proximity, but like, I have my own eyes on a future, right? But what the fuck? What do you think is going on, Taina? Cause I can't understand her and it blows my mind.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah. I think all of it is going on. think, well, first of all, I really am glad that we're talking about this because one of the things that I like to remind people is that sometimes I do DEI stuff and I have a Black History Month lunch and learn that I do sometimes with companies. One of the things that I like to make sure that I explicitly point out is that a lot of times when we think about the slave owner, the person who owned the land and owned the people, we see this white man up on the hill overlooking everything, this taskmaster. That's how we imagine it. That's in the American imagination who owned slaves. And we forget that these men had women. Yes, exactly. That was the book I was going to mention. “They Were Her Property.’
Becky Mollenkamp: For anyone who doesn't see my video. Yes, the book is called “They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South” by Stephanie E. Jones Rogers. Sorry, I got so excited because yes, yes, yes.
Taina Brown: Yeah. We forget that white women, these men, these slave owners that were evil, they had wives, they had children who were complicit in this entire system as well. And we focus so much. And not that we shouldn't be focusing on the white maleness of white supremacy. But that's not the complete picture. when Trump was elected in, when was that, 2016? And there was a lot of backlash. And there was the Women's March with their pink pussy hats, which that's in and of itself is problematic. But then there were 54 % of white women who voted for Trump. And it's like, they're voting in the interests of their husbands and their sons. They're not thinking about themselves. They're not thinking about their daughters. They're thinking about their sons. They're thinking about their husbands. They're aligning themselves with that type of white supremacy. And so when we see women like Usha or Nikki Haley, which I was surprised to learn last year that she's not even fucking white. She is also an Indian American. I think first generation as well and changed her name, like read up on that, changed her name to sound white, makes her husband go by like a very specific variation of his name. Like it's just bizarre. The whole thing is bizarre. But when I think about women like that, whether they're white or they're not, but they have this proximity to white male privilege, they are very, very hesitant to give that up. They do not want to give that up because they feel like they're safe. They feel protected. They feel like they are the exception. They feel like, well, as long as I stay close to this, I will be okay and my kids will be okay. And they might not outright say fuck everybody else, but at the end of the day, if you ask a mom, are you going to protect your kids? Are you going to protect the world? Like, what's a mom going to say? Right? And not that I there's obviously a lot of nuance there and there's a lot of things to unpack there, but it just makes me so angry. This is why representational politics, identity politics, will not fucking save us. Because when you tie your identity to whiteness, there's always that insidious white supremacy facet to it. Your identity has to about more than just the color of your skin or how close you are to whiteness. Your identity has to be rooted in other fundamentals, in other beliefs and philosophies and values than just how close can I get to power, right? That's why when Kamala Harris was elected, yes, I can celebrate the fact that a Black mixed race, Indian American, Black American women who, you know, has done so many great things. Like I can celebrate the fact that she's a VP, but I can also be critical of the fact that like, that doesn't mean shit for me as a black mixed race woman.
Becky Mollenkamp: And not to mention the fact that she, you know, is as much a part of the police state as any other person. I mean, far more, right?
Taina Brown: Yes! Yes! Yes! Like she was known for being like this like hard ass DA like in California, one of the most like, again, air quote, progressive states in the country. And so don't... When people are like, yes, we need women in positions of power. Okay, sure. But then what? But then what? What does that actually mean for the rest of us when a woman gets a position of power because more than likely, she will fucking forget who is behind her.
Becky Mollenkamp: Money corrupts. Power corrupts. And we see it again and again. People who lose sight of their values because of that. And that's why I feel like, I mean, bell hooks for me is like, I'll praise bell hooks. Like, I don't know, it's just my go -to for unlearning as a white person anyway, for really like doing the work of unlearning these things. Because I think her work was so deeply compassionate while also being very confrontational. Like, just, I love the way she approaches work, but she was very famous for, and I use her language, always saying white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. Always, that was how she said it, right? That this is the system we need to dismantle as white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. And I don't think that the bell hooks is the kind of person who doesn't give a lot of thoughts to her words and why, and choosing and how she said something. I think she said it in that order for a reason. And I know like white supremacists came first because it will not matter if we dismantle patriarchy, if we do not deal with white supremacy. That has to happen first. We have to deal with white supremacy because otherwise what continues to happen is white women show up saying they want to smash the patriarchy, saying they want to end patriarchy. But what they really mean is they just want to have a seat at the table too. Really, all they mean is they want to dismantle white patriarchy. Right. Which is what that book you're talking about, all of that is about. And so it has to start with the white supremacy piece and then the capitalism piece, because again, it goes back to that. The money and the power corrupts. Those are the things that maintain patriarchy. But we need to go at it. I feel like we're going every white people want to go the other direction. White women, they attach. They make patriarchy the most important thing on that ladder, right, of things that we need to dismantle and then capitalism and then they get around to white supremacy because they know that's the most difficult for them to confront because they're still participating in that system. They benefit from that system, right? They benefit from capitalism, a little less. So that one they can address, right? Because it's like, well, men make more, but they don't want to talk about the fact that they also make more, right? But so they're going at it like they go patriarchy, capitalism, white supremacy. And I, that's why I think I bell hooks, and that's why I always try to say white supremacist capitalist patriarchy because I really think it is that order that we need to address these things to actually make a difference in dismantling it for all the reasons you've just said. And I get so mad. I know you talked about white women and yes, and Usha is not a white woman. Now, I know she probably exactly that's I just I don't know like I put that out there on Threads. You'll hear me talk about Threads a lot, because that's where I spend a lot of my time and where I talk about these things in the moment. And I put something about it like, just don't understand why people vote against their own self -interest. I can't understand log cabin Republicans. I can't understand this growing movement of Black men who are following Trump. I can't understand white women that vote for Trump. can't understand Usha being married to JD Vance, let alone being like in this position now to potentially be the second lady. Like I don't understand it. And people started telling me all these things around proximity to power, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I know that, but it still doesn't tell me why. the values piece, I guess it's, and the only thing I can be left with is that the only thing that actually somehow like, I don't get it, but that I think has to happen is there is a total degradation of their values that must be coming from that power and the potential for the power and money that has just made them somehow. It's like they've sold their souls. It's the only thing I could think is they're selling their souls to the devil to make money. And have power, because otherwise I don't get, I just can't understand why. How can someone, and maybe it's because I'm too values driven, but I just can't…
Taina Brown: You can't wrap your head around it. Yeah. think the lore of power. Well, I'll say two other books that I think are good for people to go out and get or put on their TBR list, to be read list is Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire, the Brazilian education pedagogical philosopher. And shit, my brain just went blank. Audre Lorde. Anything by Audre Lorde, right? So it takes me back to that phrase that she says, the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house. And so we live in a society. And this is also, again, just going back to the interconnectedness of things. Capitalism breeds this sense of toxic individuality. And it also creates this environment of competition where people are striving to grab onto more power, where people are striving to outdo other people. And so this is that toxic individualism at play. And so when you are brought up in a society that says the only way to be at the top, the only way for you to be for you to feel secure is to attain more power, that lore will always outdo the lore of community. It will always outdo the lore of love for people. It will always outdo the lore of equity, inclusion, things like that. And so what I love about bell hooks is She's like, power is not the thing to attain. Love is the thing to attain. That is where we, that's the direction we need to be going. And so her book, All About Love, right, it talks about those things. And so in order to resist, which you have it.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'll just, every time you mention a book, I'm just gonna show it up. It's my favorite. Like you should see all of the the markings in this book. “All About Love” is the thing I recommend to everyone for a starting place for bell hooks. It's just, because it's that, it's that like stop. We can't just be these individuals and think that we're gonna solve things.
Taina Brown: Yeah. And we can't be going after power, right? I don't want a seat at the table of white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. I want a completely different table to be sitting at. And what I love about Paulo Freire's book, and so his book is four chapters, and the way that he communicates is very succinct. And what I mean by that is like if you've ever read anything by Audre Lorde, she does not waste words. Every single word is very precise and has a very, very specific meaning. And she chooses it for a very specific reason. And Paulo Freire is the same way. And so when you read his work, one of the things that he talks about in Pedagogy of the Oppressed is that people who are oppressed sometimes that the way to undo their oppression is to reverse the role, right? To now all of a sudden you have the power and the other person is oppressed. But that is just mimicking oppression. That's not really liberating anybody because what you're doing when you do that is you are sacrificing your humanity to do that. You are giving up a part of yourself that is the core of who you are in order to take on the role of the, and so in order to truly find liberation from oppression, you just have to do away with the entire structure, the entire system of us or them, me or you. And so there has to be a way for us as people who are seeing this and living this every day, every fucking day to just find ways to rewrite the script to build other types of tables for people to sit at. Because the grab for power, the ambition toward power, that is not going to save us. That is going to continue us on this destructive path.
Becky Mollenkamp: That's why, and I'm, I know I'm gonna, I'm saying a name without saying a name and I don't, and as a white woman, I'm always very hesitant around this because I don't, I fully understand and don't inherently fault the idea of we should all be millionaires and of women of color saying, we wanna get our bag, right? Like I get that fully. And I would never, fault a Black woman saying, I want more money. I want it. I want the power. I want the wealth. And this is not this is like the nuanced place, right? This is the messy place of like, it's not either or for me. It's and and until we say that game is is a bad game. I don't want to play that game. And just me instead of them winning the game and now me winning the game. Not that nothing's really fixed until we say that game sucks and we're not doing that game. And it's kind of like, think it's a little of both. Like, I think the pendulum sometimes has to swing a little too far the other direction for it to finally find that place where we get back to a place that actually is more equitable in a way, like, or equal. Like, I think we may have to do some more equity, which is like, let's get the money out of the hands of white men. And then eventually we start to say, wait a minute, what does it look like if we say, this isn't right either? Us being extractive doesn't change anything. But anyway, I think that that will lead, I think this could lead us to the last piece that we were gonna talk about because so much of what we're talking about with this and with Jack Black is values. Because as I was saying, like the only thing that makes sense to me, it doesn't even make sense, but the only way I can even begin to wrap my head around someone like Usha is she's just lost all sight of values. Either intentionally has just said, fuck it, I'm gonna set them aside because you don't get ahead with your values. I've learned that, so screw it, let's just play this game. Or she has diluted herself or others have helped her be diluted to the idea that she is maybe still somehow having her values. I don't know how she could be believing that, but I think it all comes back to values. And so sticker mule, which maybe not everyone knows, but a lot of people who are self -employed know about sticker mule because it's a common place people go to get t -shirts or stickers because you can do one -off custom designs. So people who want to make a small batch or just one or a few stickers to give to clients or t -shirts to wear for their brand or whatever often use Sticker Mule. And the Monday, the day or two days after the assassination attempt on Trump, yes, the co -founder of Sticker Mule, who's like a middle -aged white dude who I don't think is American. His parents weren't American, I’m not positive about that. Now I have been on his email list for a while because I had ordered from sticker mule last year to get a one off t -shirt made because it was affordable and I just wanted one. I've been on the emails for a while. They send out once or twice emails a week. They come from him. You know, I'm sure he's not writing them, but they come from him and they are always about 20 words and they are just a promotional email. Here's hey, get $5 off t -shirts or here's a coupon code for blah, blah, blah. Right. And they're very short, always. I've never read a long email from him. Monday morning drops in everyone's email box. They have hundreds of thousands of followers on social media channels. So their email list is probably quite giant. Everyone got the email that the subject line was Trump 2024. Now they've never sent an email, least not that I've seen. And I have since discovered that if you had done a deeper dive into some of their ex content, formerly known as Twitter, you might have gotten some impression of their political stance based on some of the things they've said about Elon Musk. That is that you would have had to really do research and you would have to make some jumps to understand. But there has been nothing that would make you think that this is a Trump company. So he sends out this email saying, lots of people, I should find it, but it's basically saying, hey, people, this, we're in a divided times. Political violence is awful. This has to stop. There's lots of people who are Trump supporters, but they're afraid to say it because of the violence. know. if you hold here, I'll even find the email because it's just so, like, you're like, what? It's so unbelievable. Okay, because I wrote about this. So here it is. Donald Trump was shot. I don't care what your political views are, but the hate for Trump and his supporters has gone too…
Taina Brown: My god, they love to be the victim, to be the persecuted.
Becky Mollenkamp: People are terrified to admit they support Trump. I've been scared myself. Americans shouldn't live in fear. I support Trump. Many at Sticker Mule do. Many at Sticker Mule also support Biden. The political hate needs to stop. I don't remember him saying anything about political hate January 6th, so by, and then I love that he says the political hate needs to stop. Hopefully this email helps. I'll let you know it didn't help. He immediately goes into, by the way, this week, get one shirt for $4. So he goes right into his capitalist ad. And then he says, I suggest buying one that shows you support Trump. The more people realize that millions of kindhearted, compassionate people support Trump, the sooner the hate will end. Awesome people all over the world love Trump. Don't limit your friendships and diminish your happiness by indulging in political hate. Vocalize your support, stop the hate from Anthony Constantino, I'm gonna make sure I do use his name, co -founder of Sticker Heal. This email was so out of left field, so not anything they've ever done, so blatantly insupportive and delusional about the experience of what MAGA is and what those who are opposing it are, and it was wild. So the backlash, as you may imagine, was swift and fierce, people unsubscribing, people unfollowing on social media channels, nonstop media chatter, how do I find other companies, all of that. Now, they immediately lost, go ahead.
Taina Brown: You know what it's giving? It's giving, I understand you're gay, but why do you have to throw your sexuality in my face? Why can't we have a straight parade? Or a straight pride? That's what it's fucking giving. Anyway, go ahead.
Becky Mollenkamp: Right, “straight pride month.” Yes, because of, yes, the poor put upon Trump supporters and how hard their lives are and the hate that they receive. It's just boggling. But anyway, so the point of this is I think he has every right to believe what he wants to believe. I think he has every right to put it out there. He doubled down. He has doubled and tripled and quadrupled down since. There's
Taina Brown: Yeah, for sure.
Becky Mollenkamp: Apparently any decision that he thinks this was wrong or bad. I don't know who, how he got ahold of the company email to send that email out or why there isn't someone to say, yo, yo, yo, maybe this is not a good idea. But OK, fine. He's allowed. And I think people are glad to now know. Right. So that's great. And so like Jack Black should have done, this man is doubling and tripling down and good on him. Clearly his value system aligns with that email and he should. It's his company. If that's how he wants to show up, I think great.
Taina Brown: Don't do this, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp: More power to them. The thing that I found interesting as a learning lesson and maybe a place for us to end is about values. I now know what his values are. Those values do not align with my values. And anyway, I do not want to support, money to, you know, encourage, endorse any company that would send that sort of email that is that far delusional that they think that it is non-Republicans, Democrats, independents, progressives, they're the ones that are stoking hate in this country. I can't align with that. I know what it means for him to be a Trump supporter and what that means for what he supports. I can't align with somebody who has that kind of belief system. So I'm glad I know. But what I think is important is they fucked up because they didn't let us know before. And that is where I feel like the lesson for anyone who owns a business listening to this is, are you clear about your values? One, do you know what they are? Two, are you telling people what they are before you go and decide to let people know and then they feel misled? Because what I saw so often was people saying they felt duped. They didn't know, right? And so if you let us know, then we can make an informed decision about whether we want to, is the pricing so low that I'm willing to set my values aside? It wouldn't be for me. Maybe it is for some, but let us know. And so I think it's really important for us all because I looked at their website. The only thing they have on their about page or anywhere that would hint at values is that they are a company with shared values. That was it. What are those values? don't
Taina Brown: What, some ambiguous shared values? Like, what does that mean? Shared values with whom?
Becky Mollenkamp: Clearly not me now that I know what the values are. So that's, just think for me, the lesson that so many of these things comes back to is we have to know our values. We have to know them so clear that we can turn to them and know how we would handle any situation based on them. And I think whether you're a business owner or not, to share those values with the world, with others, to show up in those values, the way you're messaging, all the choices you make, the closure, everything, to be thinking, is this communicating in a way that people would say, know what decision you would make based on these values? I want my values to be so clear that people don't even have to ask me where I stand on genocide on Palestine. I want it to be so clear that they don't even have to question it because they just know.
Taina Brown: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it'd be like, yeah, no, she would never, she would never, yeah. And I think that's a great lesson to take away from that. And also, and I've seen people say this, marketing people online say this a lot and other business owners, but you also just want to be super clear on your values because that is what's going to make it easier for your people to find you. It's going to make the sifting process easier. It's going to make your job easier to decide who you feel like you're aligned with when you go out into the world and meet people and start working with other people. one thing or a couple of things that I found interesting about that whole situation is in his email he said, no American should feel unsafe. Okay, what about the rest of the fucking world? That is like a red flag to me when people say Americans, right? Like there's this sense of American exceptionalism that like the rest of the world can be fucked, but as long as I'm Gucci and America, and I feel like America's Gucci, then we're good. Like that's a red flag to me. Like anytime I see people talk like that, whether verbally or an email or whatever, I'm like, that's an indication to me that we are not values aligned because, okay. Americans shouldn't feel unsafe, but what about the rest of the world? But then also you mentioned that he also might be first gen. And I think there's an, and for those of you who don't know, my wife is first gen American. She's an immigrant. And so, and I have a lot of friends who are also first gen Americans, a lot of really, really close friends who are first gen Americans who immigrated here from other places and have been here for decades now. But there's this, when people come to the United States, they come because most people, I will say, they come because there's this dream of fitting into this sense of American exceptionalism. America has been broadcast and marketed as this land of freedom and opportunity for generations now. And so when people come, they're hoping to get a piece of that. Part of that, one thing you realize, or one thing people realize when they get here is that in order to obtain that, you have to assimilate. You have to let go of your own culture. You have to let go of your own values to embrace the American values. And that is why we see a lot of people like Usha and this sticker mule person, like going far right, because this is their way of attaining the American dream. This is their way of assimilating and having that sense of belonging in this country. And unfortunately, that is true in a lot of immigrant communities. Like we see that in Florida with a lot of like the Hispanic and and Latin communities, right, who are ultra conservative DeSantis fans, Trump fans, et cetera, right? Because they come, they assimilate, and now they feel like they have this sense of belonging and this proximity to this white supremacist capitalist patriarchal culture that was their quote unquote, air quotes again, American dream. And so we have to be very honest with ourselves about how we show up in the world that either embraces that American dream or resist it, because even the small decisions that we make can signal to other people that this is OK when it's really not. And so we have to have constant self -reflection to better understand in what ways are we as Americans who don't buy into this bullshit because we've seen it for what it is. We've seen behind the veil in what ways am I signaling and communicating to other people that like the grass is not greener over here. Like as a matter of fact, the grass is shit and we have a long history of going to other places and making the grass over their shit as
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And I feel like the more privilege you have, the more you need to be really thoughtful about not just how you communicate it, but what you actually, the work you're doing first and foremost, right? But when you're really doing the work and your values really are reflective of a more liberatory and community -minded sort of approach to life then I think it becomes even more important that you communicate that because there needs to be more folks who look like me showing up and putting these values out. Like, you he talked about people being afraid to say they support MAGA or whatever. But the truth is, I know plenty of privileged and it's such a privileged, privileged position to take business owners who are afraid to share their more liberatory values because hey don't want to alienate anyone and they don't want to like lose out on money and blah, blah, blah. And what privilege that is. And is that really then reflective? Are those values real if that's how you show up? Because I think that is a big problem that I see a lot where people are like, well, I have these values, but like, I don't want to be political in my business or I don't want to alienate anyone or, you know, my business isn't political, so don't need to. I don't want to make those kinds of statements. And it's like, no, fuck that. Everything is political.
Taina Brown: Yeah, everything is political.
Becky Mollenkamp: And your decision not to talk about those things is political.
Taina Brown: And that's a decision to make. That is also a decision.
Becky Mollenkamp: Correct. And so the more privilege you have, the more responsibility you have. And so I would like to leave people with that. My sweet little kiddos in here, he's sick today. So I'm going to end things here. We said, you said before we started recording, well, I don't know if we're going to talk about, you're like, well, if we talk about politics, because we weren't sure if we talk about politics. Here we are talking about it. But you're like, I could talk about that for days, hours, days, weeks. And here we are almost an hour later. So we went long. But we can't talk about these things forever. But we'll try really hard. Please, if you're listening, if you're one of these people, because we know we have listeners. I've seen the numbers. There are people listening. So we know you're there. And I know people say this all the time, and then we never do it. But truly, email us. Messy liberation at gmail .com. We want to hear from you. Tell us what you want to hear about. Ask us a question that we can answer. If you do that, I promise you'll make our day.
Taina Brown: Let us know what you want to talk about, right? Just a few of you out there.
Becky Mollenkamp: I keep checking the email going, anyone yet? And they haven't. So please do, please do. Thank you for listening.
Taina Brown: Have a great day!