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On the WorkWell Podcast, Jen Fisher — Human Sustainability Leader at Deloitte and Editor-at-Large, Human Sustainability at Thrive Global — sits down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations about how we can develop a way of living and working built on human sustainability, starting with ourselves.
Jen F. (00:00):
I'm really excited to share that my TEDx talk, the future of work is out. It combines my personal story with practical ways we can all come together to create a better world of work by focusing on human sustainability. Just search for Jen Fisher TEDx on your preferred search engine to watch my talk, and please join me in the movement to make wellbeing the future of work by sharing it with your networks. Thank you. Leadership comes with its own unique set of challenges and stressors in the workplace, but just because you're a leader doesn't mean you should be unhappy. In fact, when leaders prioritize happiness for themselves and for their teams, they can create a huge positive impact on work, culture, and society as a whole.
Jen F. (00:45):
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher and I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things purpose and wellbeing. I'm here with Tia Graham. She's the Chief Happiness Officer and the founder of Arrive At Happy, a company created to inspire transformation through happiness. She also is an international keynote speaker and TEDx speaker, a bestselling author, a podcast host, and a leadership trainer on positive psychology and positive work cultures. She's worked with dozens of global companies to elevate employee engagement and drive bottom line results. Her bestselling book, be A Happy Leader, teaches her proprietary eight step methodology on driving productivity and business growth through a culture of happiness. Theo, welcome to the show.
Tia Graham (01:36):
Thank you. I'm excited to be here with you.
Jen F. (01:39):
I am so excited for this conversation. I feel like it's a long time coming, so let's jump right in. I wanna know who you are and then how you became passionate about happiness and happiness at work specifically.
Tia Graham (01:54):
Okay. Who I am is a big question, . It's alright. I'll give a short version. . Well the first thing that comes to mind is I'm a Canadian American and I love both countries so much. I am a mom and a wife and my founder of the company arrive at Happy. I also consider myself a hotelier because I worked in hotels and resorts for 15 years in the US and Europe in sales and marketing and yeah, I'm just really obsessed. I know we're gonna talk about happiness, just really obsessed with the science of happiness and happiness at work and trying to educate and inspire as as many people as I can. And I also am completely obsessed with traveling to as many places as possible.
Jen F. (02:39):
How many places have you been to? Do you know?
Tia Graham (02:41):
Oh gosh, I've never counted . I've never counted. I should,
Jen F. (02:45):
You should get one of those like maps of the world where you know, you, like you put all the little pins in all the places that you go. So anyway, so let's talk about happiness and where your passion for happiness came from and then just like how that transitioned into leadership and happiness and happiness at work.
Tia Graham (03:04):
Yeah, so I believe I am one of those humans that I'm lucky in a way that I'm definitely genetically predisposed to be happy. I think I, I definitely got a lot of happy genes from my genetic history. I also learned some very important happiness lessons from my parents and, and saw them going through really challenging times and struggling. And then I saw them choose happiness and make choices to sustain it over and over. And that was really impactful for me, especially as a teenager.
Jen F. (03:37):
Mm-Hmm.
Tia Graham (03:38):
And when I was really unhappy in my early twenties, completely lost and just kind of going down the wrong path, I decided to move to Hawaii change degrees and that's kind of how I got into hotel industry and I was so happy moving from Canada to the Hawaiian Islands. ,
Jen F. (03:56):
I gonna say, I guess it's hard to be happy unhappy in Hawaii. Is that what you're saying?
Tia Graham (04:00):
? Yeah, it's pretty hard. It would take a lot of effort to be unhappy in Hawaii, I think. I mean, I think, yeah. And then in terms of work, I became a leader at a really young age, 26 years old. I was leading my first sales and marketing team, and I of course took it really seriously. I wanted to do well as a leader and, and drive results and that experience just, you know, not taking anything for granted. I think of just realizing that leadership is such an honor and a privilege. And, and then in my hotel career I had some incredible inspirational, motivational happy leaders like, and I also worked with, and for the complete opposite, I had toxic negative leaders that made the team miserable and I really made it my mission to be a positive leader leading sales and marketing teams. And then when I started formally studying positive psychology and, and studying happiness at work over in Scandinavia, et cetera, that just even increased my passion for there's, there's research behind this and, and, and seeing the ripple effect not only to employees, but even to employees families. So yeah, that's a quick
Jen F. (05:17):
Push. Yeah, I love that. And I wanna, I wanna get into all things happiness, but I wanna do some level setting first because I feel like there's just an unusually high number of definitions of happiness out there, . Yeah. And so can you kind of demystify that for us and break it down? Like how do you define happiness when, when we're talking about happiness, what does that actually mean?
Tia Graham (05:42):
Yes, and I agree with you and a lot of people don't even let you know. They feel uncomfortable with the word ha words, happy or happiness. So for me, I really align with positive psychology and I zoom out and think of it as a happy life because of course our emotions are con are always changing. Mm-Hmm. . So for me it's having more positive, pleasant emotions than painful ones. You know, if you think about over a course of a year, over a course of the, of your life, it's not about positive all the time. Okay. So that's one. Second is meaning and purpose, whether that's from work, from parenting, from helping others, just meaning and purpose. And then also ha happiness And a happy life to me is about having different experiences that, you know, make you wiser, that, that push you to learn and grow.
Jen F. (06:42):
And that's why you like to travel so much. . Yeah, . Okay. So with that as kind of the foundation then, like I, I guess in your mind, like why is it that unhappiness has become so prevalent in our society but in particular kind of in the workplace, I feel like you can't look at a headline these days that doesn't talk about how unhappy the workforces and, and, and how unhappy, you know, employees are. So I, I guess what's causing that?
Tia Graham (07:16):
Mm-Hmm. such a great question. We could probably do the whole podcast just on this. Yeah,
Jen F. (07:21):
I was gonna say that's, that's an even more loaded question than who are you ?
Tia Graham (07:24):
Yes, yes. So for, for general unhappiness there's a, there's a very big list. Some big ones that, that I know that are contributing it to, that are contributing to it are the 24 7 negative news cycle. So people are bombarded with negative information, catastrophic information from all around the globe all the time. And it, our brains already have a negativity bias. And so being constantly filled with negative information, it makes it very challenging to feel positive and optimistic even though there's very positive things happening around the globe every day. More of, I'm very passionate, more of that needs to be shared. But I remember listening to Dr. Martin Seligman, world Happiness Summit two years ago that humans have never been better off being alive than right now. But it doesn't seem like that when you look at social media and you look at the different news media station.
Tia Graham (08:26):
So that's one reason. Also being completely connected all the time with technology and social media, you know, comparing ourselves to other people is a big driver of unhappiness as well. Our lifestyle of not moving as much as we used to. I can't help but think about the blue zones where people live naturally and healthily healthy and they live long and they're happy. So our lifestyle of not moving as much, not eating as well because of the food industry, well, that could be a whole podcast too, . And then also not getting enough sleep, and also being disconnected spiritually as well. Spiritu. So those are some, some big some big, I could go on more, but, but those are some, in terms of life, in terms of work, there is a, there is a connection oh, and I'm sorry, a big one that connects to both is also not as much time, not as much present time with our friends and with our family members as we need and as you know, as we need to thrive.
Tia Graham (09:42):
And so for work, you know, all of that affects how we feel at work, right? Medi, you know, sleep, exercise, diet as well as connected time with friends and family. And the pressure to always be on, to always be connected, to never disconnect is making us unhappy at work. Some companies work cultures, toxic work cultures or cultures where people are not appreciated. They don't feel like they belong, they don't feel valued. That's a reason for unhappiness at work. And also a, the, the way that a lot of companies, especially in North America, are structured with this very top down,
Jen F. (10:32):
You
Tia Graham (10:32):
Know, executives running everything and then decisions and communication being passed down. Whereas in places like Denmark, it truly is the, the frontline that are driving the big decisions and the executives are supporting or, or really understand that they, they are there to support the frontline associates and employees. So those are some, and I, I truly believe that managers and leaders really want to do the right thing, but a lot of people haven't been trained on creating happy teams and happiness at work and, and measuring as well.
Jen F. (11:16):
Yeah, yeah, completely. And, and I know that you, I mean, you, you focus on the entire workforce, but you have a specific focus on leaders and leadership because of what we know to be kind of their outsized ability to impact the workforce. And so, you know, is unhappiness something that is only being experienced by the workforce and employees recognizing that leaders are part of the workforce, but like, what, what about leaders specifically? Like are you seeing that they are experiencing this outsized, you know, 'cause if if they're unhappy, I guess , we gotta get them happy so that there's hope for the rest of us mm-hmm.
Tia Graham (11:59):
. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So I work a lot in the hotel industry. I also work in legal technology, beauty industries as well, but a lot in hospitality based on my background. And what I am hearing and experiencing is that the leaders are challenged and are overwhelmed and have chronic stress, and they are struggling to balance, let's just use Ariana Huffington's term. They're challenged with consistently having life work harmony.
Jen F. (12:36):
Yeah.
Tia Graham (12:36):
So that they are well in order to be well and and, you know, have that positive energy with their teams. I'm hearing that everyone is tired Yeah.
Jen F. (12:50):
With
Tia Graham (12:50):
Everything that people have gone through. And it now of course, things are fast again and busy and, and corporate teams are excited because now, right, there's, there's, there's the industries are thriving, but but there is this, this feeling of, of tiredness out there. And there's also, I think a challenge for both leaders, managers, supervisors, is people giving themselves permission to take care of themselves.
Jen F. (13:25):
Yeah.
Tia Graham (13:27):
And, and knowing that it's okay if they're not doing emails from 10 to 11. And I know you are so passionate about this but a lot of people struggle with giving themselves permission to take care of themselves and to not be hyper productive every second.
Jen F. (13:48):
Yeah. And, and I, and I am very passionate about this and what I would say as a, as a leader, you know, if you're a leader of people at all, and, you know, giving yourself permission to take care of yourself gives everybody else the same permission when they see you do it, they are more likely to do it. And that is the, you know, that kind of outsized impact that, that we've been talking about Tia. And so much of this resonates and is reflected in some of the recent survey work that we've done at Deloitte on advancing workforce while being, and that, you know, c-suite leaders and leaders of any kind are feeling this level of, you know, tiredness and exhaustion and mm-hmm. , you know, somebody the other day described it to me as like a lack of hope, , you know, like, how do we get back to like a hopeful place where yes, you know, we know that we can, we can, we can fix these things. And I do think it is all fixable. We're not gonna fix it overnight, but it is fixable. Yes, you gimme, but you know, yeah.
Tia Graham (14:50):
Bumps
Jen F. (14:51):
mm-hmm. , it is definitely fixable. So let's talk about how we fix it and why, and why organizations should invest in happiness. Because like you said before, even the word happiness, right? Like, some people reject that. So yes,
Tia Graham (15:08):
I
Jen F. (15:09):
Know you probably encounter leaders that tell you like, yeah, that's interesting and it sounds nice or it feels good, but they don't always see the connection to the bottom line. So can you talk about that?
Tia Graham (15:20):
Yes. And I have to say, your reports that come out are so valuable, so thank you. Thank you, . And yes, I do come across some skeptics in terms of, you know, happiness doesn't belong in the workplace and it sounds very soft, and how do you achieve that et cetera. But what I am super optimistic about and talking about hope is the research that is coming out of the Wellbeing Institute at Oxford University. Yeah. You know, there's, so short answer is for people that are not sure about happiness at work, and okay, we measure it, and how do we, how do we actually do this is I show research from organizations like Deloitte and Oxford where it shows that when employees consistently report that they are happy at work, that they feel like they have meaning and purpose, that they have stress, but it's not chronic, unchecked, unhealthy stress that the organizations will be more profitable, will increase market share, will have more productivity, more sales, less turnover, higher retention, happy, you know, happier customers.
Tia Graham (16:37):
And so once, once I show that research, it has people sort of sit up and go, oh, okay, this is more serious than I thought. And in terms of how, how do you take an organization where the employees are saying they're not that happy, they don't really have meaning and purpose is you do start with the executive team and the leadership team, and have them understand using the science of happiness and neuroscience, how they can increase and have sustainable happiness and what that will do to, to their business results as a leader. And then inspire them and train them on how to increase and sustain the happiness of their associates. So examples of this are creating a culture of autonomy, having friendships at work, celebrating successes, and creating connected positive relationships and, and belonging at work. Having everyone be consistently connected to the purpose and the meaning of the organization.
Tia Graham (17:47):
You know, I always say to leaders, your organization does not exist to make money. Like, that's, that's one thing your organization does, but your organization benefits society, whether that's people, mother earth or animals. And you need to be talking about that all of the time as well. And making sure that people are not micromanaged, that there's a listening culture, that you have fun at work and joy at work. And you know, where, where everyone's voice is heard, opinion matters, and that you're measuring wellbeing on an ongoing basis. And I, you know, talk about ways that you can do this in team meetings, one-on-one, how you communicate e you know, written, verbal, your body language but you know, a lot of it is energy. So that's why I do start with the leaders of, you can't expect your team to be happy if you're not. Well,
Jen F. (18:45):
Yeah. So, so much goodness in there, . So let's talk about what that looks like. You can expect your teams to be happy if you're not well. So what does a happy and well leader look like? Yeah.
Tia Graham (19:00):
And
Jen F. (19:00):
Then, you know, I mean, you've talked a little bit about this already, but are there kind of myths about being a happy leader that you want to dispel, like along the lines of like, toxic positivity or they're too positive, or, you know, the idea of servant leadership, this is something that I've kind of always questioned because I'm not a big fan of that term because it assumes that you have to sacrifice yourself to make others happy. And I think what we all want is a happy and well leader, not somebody that has sacrificed everything. So I said a lot in there, I'd love for you to react to that
Tia Graham (19:37):
. You can't see me right now, but I have a huge grin on my face. I love this question, . I love this question, and the myths are really important.
Jen F. (19:44):
Yeah.
Tia Graham (19:45):
So a happy and well leader is someone who in their personal lives, when they are not working, they are taking care of themselves holistically. And I use Dr. Thar's Spire model because it's a great framework of wellbeing, of happy and well leaders are prioritizing their spiritual, physical, intellectual, relational and emotional wellbeing that they are, they are, they are taking care of themselves, valuing their mind, body and spirit. And this, this is different for, for each person. You know, for me as an example, it is prioritizing my physical and mental health, my marriage to my husband, Jim, parenting my two daughters, my friendships, you know, learning and growing meditating and praying. That's that's what it is to me. I would love to learn guitar for ex, I don't know, I've gotta wait till my kids get older, but like, hobbies could be, you know, so, so what does that look like to you?
Tia Graham (20:54):
So that, that you feel well, and then in the workplace, when you show up at work, whether it's in person or virtually, that they energetically are physically and, and mentally well in order to lead the team. And so the way that they communicate is going to energize and motivate and inspire people. Their brain is going to be more creative and open and flexible. They're going to be more productive, and they're gonna create an environment where people want to work. I always say, be the type of leader that people actually want to work for. And you know that, that a recruiter, another company isn't gonna pull them away. And your brain operates very differently when you're positive and and optimistic. It, it is more efficient and it works better. So, but to your point of toxic positivity, there is no way on earth that anyone can be this type of leader all year long, all month long. You are gonna have bad days. You're gonna have days where you are stressed and overwhelmed and angry. You know, you're gonna be frustrated whether, and you want to be and authentic, good old bene, Brene, brown, vulnerable human being, you are not a robot that is positive all the time. Back to the definition of happiness. You're more positive than right,
Tia Graham (22:32):
You know, than others. But, but it's not all the time. So that's a happy and well leader. So some myths are that if you are a happy, positive leader, that you're someone that can't be taken seriously. You know, if you're, if you're smile a lot and you're caring and you know you're positive, there, there could, there is the perception that, oh, this person isn't very serious. So that's one myth. Another myth is that yes, you need to be positive all of the time. A another myth is that if you're this type of person, you are really good on the people side, but you're not very strong and effective at driving business results, that could be another myth as well. But, but
Jen F. (23:23):
They go hand in hand. ,
Tia Graham (23:25):
They go hand in hand. And for anyone, yeah, I would say for any skeptic, there's a, there's a great book called Positive Leadership by Kim Cameron. And Love it. The research in this book, it's a short read. It, it, you know, shows that you, you will drive bus and Harvard has research on it. I mean, there's so much research on it. And so that, yeah, those are some of the biggest myths that I, that I come across. And I will say also that the word happy or happiness doesn't belong in business. That's another sort of myth that, you know, they don't belong together.
Jen F. (24:01):
Yeah. I, and and I, I so appreciate the, the commentary specifically about, you know, being a happy leader doesn't mean that you show up every single day happy 'cause you're human. And I think that there is also value in, you know, and this looks different for everybody but for me, you know, I, I will openly let my team know that, you know, I'm a little off today, , you know, I didn't sleep well or, you know, there's something going on in my personal life. I'm a caregiver for my mother. And so, you know, I'm very open and honest on the days that, hey, I'm not as engaged or I'm not feeling as happy or, you know, those things. 'cause Again, I think it's so important as a leader to give your colleagues and those that work with you, the opportunity or the permission to, to do the same.
Jen F. (24:57):
To say like, okay, these, you know, having bad days or having negative emotions is part of being human. And although I'm generally a positive, happy person, I have bad days too, . Yes. You know? Yes. I think that is so important. So I really appreciate that you pointed that out. 'cause I do think a lot of people think, like, as a leader, I should show up and be infallible and not let anybody know that, you know, anything bothers me. And I, I think that that actually degrades somebody's wellbeing when they're, you know, when they feel like they have to constantly cover or pretend that they are something that they're not when they're having a bad day.
Tia Graham (25:32):
Right? Yes, exactly. So, I mean, I can't help but think of the parallel with parenting, you know?
Jen F. (25:37):
Yeah. ,
Tia Graham (25:38):
You're, my girls get very uncomfortable when I cry that it makes them very uncomfortable. But I say, you know, mom also gets sad, like, you guys get sad. Mom does too. And with, with at work, it's the same. And it, and you know, as you get to know your team and you build relationships with your team, you learn about each other's personal lives as much as, you know, people want to share. And of course, if, if something's going on in your personal life, it's gonna affect your work and vice versa. And so I absolutely encourage people to, to share, to be real, and then allow other people to do the same. Right. Not expect your team to be positive and upbeat all the time as well.
Jen F. (26:27):
I don't know if you're a fan of Susan David's work around emotional agility.
Tia Graham (26:31):
Yeah. Her work is
Jen F. (26:31):
So
Tia Graham (26:32):
Great,
Jen F. (26:33):
And what you were just saying reminded me of, you know, what she says is that, you know, emotions are data, right? Yes. And so as a leader, when you know, when somebody is, you know, having a bad day or showing up with a negative emotion or a positive emotion, quite frankly, that that's data. And as a leader, that is incredibly valuable data to understand what matters to people and what motivates them and what does energize them and get them excited about their work versus the things that maybe aren't so great. And look, we're all gonna have things in our work that aren't going to make us happy, right? Like, that's just the reality of work. It's a four letter word , you know? So I, but, but I do think that that, you know, allowing people to show up on their bad days or when they're having negative emotions, as well as positive emotions as a leader, if you can cue into that, it's so powerful. And I know you talk about that si similar concept, Toia.
Tia Graham (27:28):
Yes. And, and also to understand that everyone has a different set point of happiness based on their genetics and based on their life circumstances and their choices. And so knowing that there's gonna be some people in your team that are more positive, you know, on a daily basis than others, and you can't expect everyone to, to be like that too, or, you know, and, and to be, to be like you. But yes, I highly encourage everyone listening if you're not following, and I haven't read Susan David's book. It's such a great, she has wonderful resources around emotions and emotions at work.
Jen F. (28:08):
Yeah, she really does. And so, but let's talk, we're talk, we're on the subject of books. Let's talk about something that you share in your book. And I think you've actually touched on a lot of these things just through the course of the conversation, but I do wanna get specifically to kind of your, a high level of your like eight step methodology to becoming a happy leader. So can you talk us through that a little bit?
Tia Graham (28:30):
Yes, absolutely. So the first step, no surprise is called Start With You that in order to thrive personally have great business results and have a high performing team, you must make the choice to choose happiness for yourself and make choices to sustain it, knowing that, you know, our emotions change, but that it does start with you. Step two is zoom out. So this step I teach and inspire people to have a wide perspective on their work on the organization, and to really think like the owner of the organization and not just your specific area. Step three is about executing brilliantly. I wish I learned this way earlier in my career, but I actually learned this when I became a mom. And my work hours were way shorter than before, but it was the biggest gift actually. And so in this step, I teach people how to work fast and smart and be efficient so that you have way more personal time, but you still achieve great business results.
Tia Graham (29:45):
Step four is prioritize relationships over to-do lists. So this is about connecting and creating very strong relationships with everyone that reports to you, so that when you know, so that they perform well and also that they don't wanna leave, that they feel so connected to you, that, you know, they don't wanna go to a, to a competitor, even if maybe there's, you know, a little, a little more pay or some more perks, but they truly feel the value of just working with you and with the team. Step five is your number one priority, and your number one priority is your team. And in this step, I teach people how to create a culture where every single person is valued. They feel like they belong, they support each other, they help each other, they challenge each other, and that there is healthy competition, but that everyone is, is working together and moving forward in a very effective way.
Tia Graham (30:49):
Step six is measure to excel. In this step, I teach leaders how to focus on lead measures and do this as a team to have people celebrate successes, get excited on a weekly basis about where the team is headed, and that you, by doing this, you will achieve or beat your results, but doing focusing on the lead measures. And then step seven is be the spark. So this is about showing up with an energy that inspires people and motivates people, energizes people with positivity, with optimism, with curiosity and how you communicate with people. And then step eight is master your mindset. So in this step, I teach people how to always be learning how to be open and how to have a mindset that you are always a student. I was one of those people that, you know, loved being in university, really, really have always just enjoyed learning. And I find that a, a lot of people when they get in their careers, they're okay. You learn a little bit when you're, when you start your job, and then you get into just executing in the, in the whirlwind of work. And I wanna inspire people to always be that student and to just see your work almost as a continuation of, of school and, and to just keep growing.
Jen F. (32:19):
I feel like so many of those things, I know that that's the methodology for becoming a happy leader, but I, I just feel like that those, all of those translate into like just life and becoming a happy person, ,
Jen F. (32:32):
and how we live our lives. And I also like, you know, I I I consider pretty much everybody a leader. You're a leader in some way, whether it's a leader in your life, you're a leader, specific leader in your organization. And so I just think there's so much in there that we can all apply. So thank you for that. I have one final question, and perhaps this is a trick question, but I'm gonna give it to you anyway. So you've been working in the happiness and wellbeing space for a long time. Do you think workplaces are trending towards becoming more positive, or do you think we still have a long way to go?
Tia Graham (33:08):
I think we still have a long way to go and
Jen F. (33:11):
Not, not a trick question, . Yeah.
Tia Graham (33:13):
I think we still have a long way to go, and I'm optimistic about what the future is going to be. You know, there are some organizations that are doing really well just in terms of measurement, and there's a lot of ways that you can just check boxes with wellbeing and happiness at work, you know, that you could say, oh, this, but to truly have this be embedded and be authentic to your culture, it's, you know, the, the C-suite executives and, and all, all of the leaders truly believing in it and, and, and walking it. So but I will say I'm so, I've always been so inspired by organizations in Scandinavia. I've, you know, they've been doing they've been doing a lot around happiness at work for a long time, and their productivity doesn't go down. They have great productivity. And so I'm, I'm hopeful, I'm really hopeful for the future.
Jen F. (34:19):
I agree with you. I am hopeful too. And I think the fact that we are talking about it, we have, we have the data to show how we can make improvements. We have the tools and resources on, on how we can do this. I think that, you know, we are much better off than we were even five years ago. And so we might not get there overnight, but I, I think we're trending. I'm hopeful as well. So
Tia Graham (34:46):
Tia Yes. And even that people can, yeah, go ahead. You know, I was gonna say years ago, people going to Harvard Business School were not learning about happiness, and now they are. You know, that's a huge sign.
Jen F. (35:00):
Absolutely. Yeah. That's a great, great point. Well, Tia, thank you so much for being on the show with us today to talk about happiness in general and specifically happiness in the workplace.
Tia Graham (35:10):
Aw, thank you for having me.
Jen F. (35:12):
Absolutely. I'm so grateful Tia could be with us today. Thank you to our producers Rivett 360 and our listeners. You can find the Work Well podcast series on deloitte.com, or you can visit various pod catchers using the keyword work Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name Jen Fisher or on Twitter at Jen Fish 23. We're always open to your recommendations and feedback, and of course, if you like what you hear, please share post and like this podcast. Thank you and be well. The information, opinions, and recommendations expressed by guests on this Deloitte podcast series are for general information and should not be considered as specific advice or services.