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This isn’t your average podcast—it’s a radical little book club for your ears.
Each week on Assigned Reading, feminist business coach Becky Mollenkamp invites a brilliant guest to read and unpack a feminist essay. Together, they dive into the juicy, nuanced, sometimes uncomfortable questions these texts raise about power, identity, leadership, liberation, and more.
If you’ve ever wanted to have big conversations about big ideas—but without having to get dressed, make small talk, or leave your introvert bubble—you’re in the right place.
🎧 This show is for the nerdy, the thoughtful, the socially conscious.
💬 It’s for people who crave deeper dialogue, new perspectives, and human connection in a world full of sound bites.
📚 Think of it as a feminist book club you don’t have to RSVP for.
Assigned Reading is here to help you feel less alone, more seen, and newly inspired—with accessible essays, warm rapport, and the kind of smart conversations that stay with you.
🚨 Sign up for Becky's newsletter, Feminist Rants Are My Superpower: https://beckymollenkamp.com/rants
🎤 PROUD MEMBER OF THE FEMINIST PODCASTERS COLLECTIVE 🎤 http://feministpodcastcollective.com/
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.702)
Hi Paige, how are ya?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (00:02.198)
I'm great, it's nice to see you.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:04.66)
Yes, in full transparency, I'm dealing with some vertigo and we rescheduled because of that. So thank you for doing that. And I'm going try my hardest to be.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (00:11.212)
It was easy. I'm on sabbatical right now, so I've got nothing but time.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:16.712)
Can you, I know this has nothing, well, it may have nothing to do with what we're talking about or it might be fully about what we're talking about. So let's see, because I'm really curious. What does that mean? Sabbatical. You're not a, I think when I think a lot of people think of sabbatical, they think professors, right? And so that's where my brain goes. But I have been hearing more about like, so entrepreneurs and just all sorts of folks trying to plan sabbaticals. So what does it look like for you? How did you make that happen? Why? Give me the deets.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (00:28.77)
Yep.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (00:37.806)
So it's probably actually not a sabbatical. It is a two month break that was born out of burnout. I think that for me, it's an opportunity to refocus on the things that I enjoy in life and reconnect with creativity and just take a...
take a breather, the world's of hideous right now, the vibes are off. you know, one of the things that I've been seeing over and over again is the importance of doing things that bring us joy, like joy can be radical. so I wrapped up my projects that I was working on. told, don't take on a ton of clients. So I...
Becky Mollenkamp (01:12.062)
Kind of.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (01:35.054)
I told the few amazing clients I have, know, hey, I'm taking a couple months off. I can recommend people to you who might be able to help you in the interim if you need things. And that was it. We were off to the races. So I started on April 7th and it's been weird not waking up with a revenue generating purpose every day, but I've been reading books. I've been...
Becky Mollenkamp (01:56.52)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (02:03.864)
going to the pottery studio. I'm learning how to make pottery and having a blast with that. And yeah, just doing my thing. Not working. It's nice.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:15.43)
amazing. And it is sort of an act of resistance against capitalism. And I think it's amazing you're able to do it. I think it'll I think it does relate in some ways to some more time about with feminism and intersectional feminism and interesting ways. So we'll see maybe we'll weave it into this conversation. But I'll bring us back to I just think it's I just think that's fascinating. And I think it's something a lot of people think we're all just like fucking spent. So hearing about how someone else is dealing with
Paige Worthy (she/her) (02:25.592)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (02:42.872)
Done. Done! Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:45.192)
Yeah, yeah, is really nice. Well, we're actually here to talk about this essay from Lindy West, which is called What No One Else Will Tell You About Feminism from 2012. It's definitely old. And I the reason I picked it is mostly. Yeah, right. Good. Good. It does. It very much so it screams like I guess it's from Jezebel, but it to me it feels like a BuzzFeed article, which is totally fine. But I picked it because it was Lindy West. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (02:51.552)
Yes.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (02:57.326)
And it reads that way.
It screams 2012.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:09.058)
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:12.622)
That's her style.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:15.348)
And I don't know a lot about Lindy West, but I've watched her show Shrill on Hulu. I don't know if you've ever seen it. stars, oh, yeah, and I wish I could think of her name, but she's from SNL. But anyway, it's, thank you. That's it, Aidy Bryant. Aidy Bryant. And it's fantastic. And I love that show. I don't know if it's, I think it may be done at this point, but it was a yeah, a few years old. There was a couple seasons.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:20.718)
Yes, semi-autobiographical.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:28.846)
80 Bryant. It's 80. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:39.404)
it's done. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:42.782)
Fantastic. I highly recommend the show. So that's because I was semi autobiographical and we're not doing books for this because who the hell has the time to read whole books? I certainly can't be reading a whole book every week for these. So that's why I'm choosing essays. And I feel like it also helps other people be able to have entry points that are not entire books. But this one I didn't read beforehand. I'm trying not to read all of them beforehand. I just wanted something from Lindy West. And I was like, this was interesting. What did you think?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (03:59.534)
Absolutely.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (04:07.597)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (04:11.79)
So, in the spirit of my time off of work, I took a little bit of a cop out. I have read this before. as like a baby feminist back in 2012, I mean, that's been, that's what, 13 years ago? That's wild. That's wild. So, it does, it does.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:31.422)
Yes. Very. it does not it feels like it was yesterday.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (04:40.622)
I kind of wish it was 2012 again. It'd be okay going back to that. We had our own problems back then.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:46.642)
before we even thought about, we did, but we'd had very different precedent and we, I mean, guess birtherism had started, but it, we, feel like it was before anyone was taking this horrible orange giant seriously. So there was that, but anyway.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (04:59.468)
Yes, yes. So, but I think the notes I took were this, it goes a little hard into the humor and it's a good entry point for people who, you know, maybe aren't like deep into their feminism journey. But I'm also kind of like, wait, who is this for? I go.
Is this meant like as as like a fuck you rallying cry or like it certainly doesn't feel terribly educational, but it's entertaining.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:38.856)
I mean, only like you said at that very most basic level. And I know it was a bit like, because I assume it originally ran in Jezebel where we read it. And Jezebel is not in my mind for complete newbie feminist. Like, I don't think you're subscribing to Jezebel if you're somebody who's like, needs people to convince you you're a feminist. And it feels like this whole thing is like trying to say.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (05:48.653)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:06.108)
Yeah, you're a feminist. Now I'm trying to think back to 2012 and I wonder, could there have been at that time, what happens frequently and is happening again now, the regular repeated backlash against feminism and this was a response to that potentially?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (06:20.27)
Yeah, yeah. Listen, I imagine that's something that doesn't go away. It's in tiny ripples and not big waves. When I was a freshman in college, so that was in 2001, 2002, I took my very first women's course, which by the way, is about to not exist at universities because
Becky Mollenkamp (06:27.828)
It does not.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (06:49.954)
woke. my God. But I mean, that was one of the first things that really like opened my eyes. We did a lot of reading, but like the first day of class, we watched this little short film that I think was called something like The F Word, right? And it was a lot of men on the street, women on the street, because there were women that they asked, but interviews about like, well, what does feminism mean to you?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:50.59)
T-E-I.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:14.94)
for sure.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (07:20.062)
And there was so much of it that was exactly what's in this introductory paragraph about how feminists are reactionary, undersex, man-hating bitches. it, yeah, I'm gonna keep whining personally and keep being a man-hating bitch. I was like, honestly, where's the lie? Where's the lie?
Becky Mollenkamp (07:33.192)
I need to stop their whining.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:43.764)
social.
Mine I just keep getting more and more man hating so there you go.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (07:50.478)
Mm-hmm. And now we have cats too. Now we're cat ladies as well. So at least we have company.
Becky Mollenkamp (07:54.74)
sure, sure, Thanks, JD Vance.
Yeah, I can't. Unfortunately, I'm allergic to cats,
Paige Worthy (she/her) (08:00.842)
I don't know. so am I. So am I. have terrible algae induced asthma, but I have three cats and I will not give them up. I would rather die of asphyxiation.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:05.193)
There you go.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:09.724)
I used to do that. I used to go to sleep miserable every night with my cat. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting because I do think it's that it's that response to which you're right. It doesn't go away. It's still there. These people who and including women, but all sorts of folks who still have that like I'm not a feminist or I believe in equal rights for women, but I'm not a feminist. You know, I'm not a feminist, but like this whole like there's something about that label that remains so fully charged.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (08:34.732)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:39.218)
that it's really interesting that we have to keep having these conversations that are like, no, motherfucker, you're a feminist. Like own it, be okay with it. Like why is it so scary and awful? I blame Rush Limbaugh.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (08:45.966)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I I blame Rush Limbaugh for a lot of things. Rest in, rest in, well, hell. Rest in hell. Or don't rest. I hope he is tormented every day of his afterlife.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:57.812)
Yeah. Rest not in peace.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:06.418)
where I'm sure he is currently. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:13.524)
Mm hmm. If there is such a thing, I'm sure he is.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (09:18.062)
Yes. Yeah, it's really weird that that little word can have so much power, which I think also speaks to the power of the concept, right? But it backfires occasionally.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:28.19)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:35.73)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, part of that, think is it's interesting because some of it is, think exactly what you just said, it speaks to the power of what it's about because it is so challenging that when you start anything that starts to challenge the systems as we know it, Black Lives Matter, right? All cops are bastards. These things that we hear, those things become immediately demonized for a very good reason that has nothing to do with actually what they're about. Like
Paige Worthy (she/her) (09:46.862)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:04.914)
because most people will agree with a lot of the fundamentals of what these different things are about, but it's because what they represent is a challenge to the system and the system will do everything to protect itself.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (10:07.96)
Yep. Yep.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (10:12.963)
Yep.
And it requires verbally and conceptually taking a stand against a really powerful institution, whether that's an institution that lives in a building or an institution that lives in our brains. And I think it all also requires a shouldering of responsibility for our part in it.
acknowledging the work that we have to do ourselves to undo the stuff that's preventing whatever that phrase is, like defund the police. I was actually having a conversation with my mom and my stepdad the other day about, don't even know where the conversation stemmed from, but we were talking about
Becky Mollenkamp (10:49.81)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (11:10.144)
abolition, defund the police. it turned into this like, it's kind of if you give a mouse a cookie. Did you ever read that book?
Becky Mollenkamp (11:19.752)
I have because I have a young child, yes.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (11:21.57)
Yes, well, I was a young child and I loved that. Yeah, well, yes. But it's like, sure, if you wanna defund the police, like you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to create community supports, you have to come up with alternatives to imprisonment and incarceration and like, what does that look like? it can become overwhelming.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:25.022)
I was a long time ago.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (11:51.598)
like any of these things, like the stuff that lies underneath the catchphrase or the word, I don't know, maybe it overwhelms people.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:03.538)
Maybe, but Paige, feel like you're giving them too much credit, or maybe I'm not giving them enough. Well, maybe I'm not giving them enough, and I'm definitely willing to be challenged on that. My feeling is most people don't pull at the string, right? They're not pulling at those threads to understand all of the ways that there's these spider webs that it creates, right? I feel like they just, for most of the average person who hears defund the police,
Paige Worthy (she/her) (12:06.666)
I you were gonna say that!
Paige Worthy (she/her) (12:16.91)
Becky Mollenkamp (12:29.682)
They just think that like they don't have any level of deeper understanding beyond that and just hear, well, then I won't be safe. And I think what they hear the most, because it's the people with the most privilege who are the ones who react most strongly. I think what they hear without, I think this part's unconscious, but they get this is my privilege is threatened. And I think that's the part that's hard, but I could be, again, I'm open to like believing better about people.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (12:52.503)
Well.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (12:59.308)
Listen, maybe I'm at the point of my, because it's 9 17 a.m., right? Maybe I'm at the point of my caffeination that I haven't quite reached like rage critical mass of like the coffee getting to my brainstem. So I think you make an awesome point too. there's, as with everything, there's probably a spectrum of people.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:23.764)
And I don't mean your parents because like right for your parents that conversation may well be that they start to look well, okay, I will be on to specifically reference them. But I think there are plenty of people I speak to for whom they do understand they do start to pull those threads and it does start to feel and I've been that person where you pull the threads and it does start to feel overwhelming, especially like I had the first episode of the show is a conversation with Amelia Ruby talking exactly about abolition and Angela Davis's work in that area and
Paige Worthy (she/her) (13:27.403)
woo!
Becky Mollenkamp (13:51.622)
I mean, Angela or Amelia has to pull me in a few times where because I start to go down these some of these very conventional capitalist white supremacist lines of thought that we are all ingrained in that is like, Yeah, but then what what's the alternative and it's all too much and it's too hard and it's too big. And her point is like, what we're doing right now is too hard. What we're doing right now is too big. What we do right now cost a fortune and it's complicated doesn't work all of these things. Right. So yeah, is the alternative big maybe? I know, right.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (14:17.23)
Ugh, I love her, by the way. I've known Amelia for years and actually ran into her at a restaurant a few weeks ago, which was delightful. Yeah, now... Yeah, we do. Unless she was in town. I'm in Chicago.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:21.949)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:25.649)
how nice! Yeah, and odd since you don't live in the same city!
Wait, you're in Oma- She lives in Omaha. She's in Omaha.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (14:36.704)
Okay, that's... yes, that's weird. She must have been visiting. Wow!
Becky Mollenkamp (14:39.516)
Yeah. She must have been I was gonna say. She's yeah, she's very proud of her Lincoln army in her Nebraska. I said Omaha could be Lincoln. She's in Nebraska. But yeah. So see, it is a small and weird world. But she is awesome. And she is amazing. And it is that like, reminder that, yeah, it's overwhelming. But what we're doing now is also overwhelming and ineffective in so many ways policing. And that's exactly it, right. And it's also not just the devil we know.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (14:51.574)
Amazing. It is a small, weird world.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (15:01.804)
It's the devil we know.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:07.75)
it feels easier because of that. also feels easier because it doesn't challenge all of these like things around privilege and identity. And that's the part that's really hard because when you start to have those conversations with people, if you help them pull back the layers of the onion, then eventually they have to get to the place of that confrontation for themselves to say, shit, this is really because like it threatens my identity as a person with a lot of privilege.
And I might have to give up some of that privilege. And am I really ready to do that? And that's really hard shit that we have to do as white folks who have, know, obviously as women, we have a marginalization and maybe we have other identities that are marginalized, but we will always have this benefit, this massive privilege around this, just the color of our skin. And then that's really hard.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (15:35.053)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (15:53.966)
And something that we instantly weaponize without even thinking about it.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:59.056)
Yes, all the time. Because it's just, when it's the only when the air you breathe is racism, it is like I think we start to especially when you're early in the journey of this work, it's really easy to have all sorts of that white guilt that comes up. And then when white guilt comes up, we often turn to defensiveness because we don't want to believe like we always want to believe we're the exception. I'm not racist, right? I'm the one of the good ones. Yep.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (16:11.298)
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (16:21.662)
I'm a good white person. Yup.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:24.85)
And so then we have to start to defend ourselves and our beliefs and that's not where the work and the magic happens. And so, yeah, but the truth is like, we're all doing it all the time. And it's not because we're bad people, it's because we're in a bad system. We're breathing bad air, right? And it's exceptionally hard to change that.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (16:38.508)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, and I think that's where, that's where this article or this essay misses, right? Because it, I think it was written before the concept of intersectionality really took hold. And it's in the mainstream.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:57.766)
in the mainstream, although I will have to say, feel like Lindy, I think Lindy West knew better. And maybe that wasn't her aim here. And there was some, like there was some hinting at intersectionality, right?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (17:08.44)
There was like a line like, first wave feminists were still pretty racist. But she even said, but you know, nobody's perfect. And I was like, girl, what? What? But there's.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:12.148)
Yeah, I'm trying to, because there was this.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:22.128)
Right. Right.
Yeah, and talking about these like Susan B Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton people we now know and she mentions like they were racist, they were racist as fuck or something. But yeah, it was that like, you know, it was sort of like just sloughed off like, yeah, yeah, they were racist, horrible people. But like, yeah, no one's great. And you know, and it is that like,
Paige Worthy (she/her) (17:36.269)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (17:45.986)
I wrote in my notes that she was awfully flip about that. And I understand that applying anything but that treatment probably would have disrupted the tone that she was going for. And, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (18:05.49)
Yeah. Well, and I think it also is problematic when the person writing it is white. Right? Like, I think if this were written by a Black woman and decided to take that kind of a tone, it would read differently. And I also don't think that that would probably happen. it's... Right? Right. Exactly. And I think that is where you get into some of the problematic stuff is when we have white folks writing these sorts of things.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (18:11.48)
Yes.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (18:22.542)
Yeah, I don't think that a black woman would have written anything like this.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:33.684)
and failing to really and not just in a flip way, but failing to truly honor where white folks have fallen down as feminists along this journey, because that is also why, and this is where she's not drawing that link. That's a good, a big part of why a lot of people don't identify as feminists. Now, not the men and the like, you know, the white ladies, whatever, the ones who are like afraid to identify as feminists because they think they're cat loving, man hating people. But there are many people who fully agree with all of these things.
who don't want that label because it has excluded them over history. And rather than inviting...
Paige Worthy (she/her) (19:06.858)
I mean, that's like bringing in like womanism, which I admittedly I do not know a ton about. And if I, if I really dug into that side of things and it were a label that I am allowed to apply to myself, because I also don't want to co-opt something that has been claimed by a marginalized group of women and, you know, women identifying.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:11.229)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:30.782)
Exactly.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (19:36.938)
folks, but I think that that probably is the label that I would prefer to assume for myself because it's so much bigger.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:48.692)
Well, and that's why I always say that I'm an intersectional feminist because I want, I feel like that helps to clarify that I am not a turf. I'm not a good white feminist. Like, my feminism is intersectional feminism. And in my mind, if it's not intersectional, it's not really what feminism should be or is meant to be about. But that's where I think this falls short because it feels like it is playing into some of that that has been so exclusionary. I could, this feels like it was written at the, it's a few years.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (19:58.552)
Ugh.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (20:05.198)
Correct. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:18.098)
before, but it feels like the pussyhat folks who are showing up and all of the, you know, that women's march that then so many black women felt so excluded again, right? And it felt like it didn't, it did not understand and address what it means to be a woman because if one of us is oppressed, all of us is oppressed, which means if our black sisters are oppressed, we are.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (20:29.737)
again.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:40.952)
If our trans sisters are oppressed, we are oppressed, right? If our fat sisters are disabled sisters, all of our neurodivergent sisters. if your feminism doesn't include every type of woman, right, then it's not actually feminism. And that's why I still want to hold onto the label because I want like, and maybe I'm fighting a silly fight, but to me it's like, I don't want to let the JK Rowlings of the world win and get to own feminism when what they're doing isn't feminism at all. Fuck that. Like that's not what feminism is.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (21:09.257)
Mm-hmm. No.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:09.716)
is and should be. But also I, but I also like to fully recognize, I understand all the reasons why people reject the label. Not all the reasons why the reasons that people who share these beliefs reject the label. Like I get it because it has.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (21:21.538)
Yeah. Well, and I think it's probably some of it is like they're... Most people don't have the opportunity to have nuanced conversations about a single word that they apply to themselves. So having a different word allows for like a line in the sand, right? Or like a stamp that they can apply that says like, yeah, feminism is, it's a complex thing.
There are different offshoots that still oppress other women and this is the one I'm claiming and it's just shorthand for fuck all those people who aren't actually practicing real feminism. I'm being very charitable this morning.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:11.252)
And I want to be more charitable, Paige. And there are times where I am. And Amelia, I can't wait for you to hear her episode, too, because it's that, like, she comes back to love and things that I'm like, okay, right, right, right. I need to remember of like, and I practice that sort of loving kindness to other people. And sometimes I can. Today, I can't because I'm dealing with vertigo and fuck that. I don't have the energy, right? So I think that's part of our journey is like, yeah, where you have capacity, it's great.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (22:35.266)
Yep, you're depleted. You are depleted and there is no room for bullshit.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:42.26)
Yeah. Well, you know what? This makes me think of something that's very much related to a lot of this because so I saw Jamila Jamil is apparently doing a talk show or something and Summer Toehill or however you say her name. I don't know if you know her, but she's an Australian Summer Toehill? Toohill? Anyway, follow her on Instagram.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (22:50.509)
Mm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (22:54.52)
Who?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (23:00.11)
Well, it doesn't ring a bell anyway.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:02.78)
Yeah, he's an Australian feminist. She's amazing. So I'll link to her and show knows if people want to check her out on Instagram. By the time this runs, it'll be a few weeks old, but you can still go back and see some of the controversy about Jamila Jamil. If it's still up, I don't know. The two of them have been doing a little bit of talking, so maybe they'll resolve it. But Jamila apparently had a talk show or has a talk show and part of her premise and now, to be fair,
I haven't seen the talk show. don't know. And Jamila is trying to say like, hey, I feel like maybe this was misrepresented a bit. But Summer's point was she was there at the taping and left at the halfway point because the first half felt very much to her of like, hey, we need to like meet men where they are and be more understanding and try to educate them more. This whole feeling of like the Manosphere thing that's happening and all of that, the shit, right?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (23:34.317)
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (23:52.504)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:54.352)
And so Summer's whole point was, fuck that, your reaction was hers, like fuck that. And she's like, we have been caretaking emotionally and in many ways for men for millennia. And it is not our responsibility to educate them, to get them here, to make them understand these things. Men need to lead the charge. They need to educate each other.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (24:07.982)
millennia.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (24:16.142)
If you're not fucking here by now, what are you doing? What are you doing?
Becky Mollenkamp (24:24.244)
You're very much actively. Yeah, you're just you don't want to participate and I see women I do see these women that educate men on these issues that are showing up in that way trying to be the people who are like Let me bring you in. Let me be more gentle with it. Like not not to say all men. I'm not that person I'm the all men until no men person and I'm also like I don't find it my responsibility to do that
Paige Worthy (she/her) (24:28.536)
willfully ignorance.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:49.62)
I do see that it's lovely that there are people who can and there are moments in my life where I have that softness to say, if you're swimming in these waters, of course you're showing up that way, blah, blah, blah. But, and I don't want to draw, just to be very clear, I'm not drawing any equivalencies around oppression here, but it is similar to this feeling where black folks are like, we shouldn't, it's not my job to educate you white people. You need to do this work yourself.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (25:12.76)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:15.604)
And that's how I feel when I'm like, when people, cause I will have it all the time on social media. I talk about these issues a lot and I have people showing up to me all the time saying, I'm too mean to men, that how are we ever gonna get women over if we're showing up like the angry ladies, all of this stuff. And it's like, when summer put words to it of like, no, we've been doing that forever and it hasn't worked. Why do we think now suddenly it will work? It doesn't work. Men have to figure this shit out for themselves and educate each other. And that is where I feel like,
This feels a little bit like it's in some ways speaking to men because or to the women who aren't who don't give a shit. But and I'm just like, I don't know. There's a lot about it that feels lacking because of that, because I'm like, I'm done. I'm not I'm not educating them.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (25:57.548)
Yeah, it's, and I feel like the first time I read this, which had to have been some good time ago, I was probably, I probably reacted a lot more warmly to it. And I was like, yeah, fuck yeah. And now with me too under our belts and with Trump under our belts now twice, and honestly under our belts, quite literally, like there's,
Becky Mollenkamp (26:07.667)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:12.51)
Mm, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:26.822)
in our pants. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (26:27.51)
I'm so much madder. I'm so much more angry. I'm, yeah. And like, I will pretend that my rage at the world isn't part of me taking time off. Like it literally consumes me. I actually have a t-shirt with an adorable kitten on it that says rage consumes me. And I wear it all the time because it-
Becky Mollenkamp (26:31.964)
I have rage, straight up rage, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:47.326)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (26:57.398)
It speaks what's on my heart. it's, I just, like obviously our perspective is going to naturally shift over time. And I'm glad that mine has shifted in this way because I feel like I'm seeing things clearly. But I also think that so many people have regressed over the years. Like we were just, going backwards in so many ways.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:00.754)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (27:27.062)
And so, though this is strongly worded, I think it's easy to kind of toss off as like a comedic piece, although I don't actually think it's that funny. I think it's a little bit team try too hard on the humor side of things, which like, love Lindy West. I think she has a brilliant brain, but this humor does not, it doesn't track with me. It doesn't, and it doesn't, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:52.052)
Yeah, it may speak to the time it was written in, I don't know, but yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (27:54.988)
Yeah, and it doesn't resonate with me as a writer. And even the beginning, she references like all the people who, if you're not a feminist, you hate all these women, Sarah Michelle Geller, Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Lopez. And then she goes into like Kim Kardashian, Khloe Kardashian, Kourtney, Kraken, Carphone, Kickball, Kornkob. And I'm like,
Even that feels like a... I'm not a Kardashian fan. There is so much wrong over there, but even that feels a little bit dismissive of women and... It's cringe. It's cringe.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:41.042)
Yeah, the whole that whole part of it's very bizarre. mean, a lot of it's really bizarre. And you know, not that Lindy West will ever listen to this. But Lindy, if you listen to it, I have a feeling you don't really I doubt I would be surprised anyway, if she would stand by this today and say, Yeah, I really great about that piece.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (28:56.312)
Yeah, don't think this is probably like at the top of her portfolio, doubtful.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:01.426)
Yeah, right. I'm certain it would look different if she wrote it today. I have to believe that's the case. But, you know, and all of that stuff aside, it's like the parts like so she mentions Betty Friedan, but there's like no mention of the fact that Betty Friedan was the person who was most actively trying to keep black women and lesbian women, black lesbian women out of that second wave of feminism. Like she was so anti lesbian. She was the one who came up with that term about like the lavender, whatever, you
Paige Worthy (she/her) (29:07.309)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:30.42)
and that they then eventually co-opted and said, is ours, we're going to own that, the lavender wave, right? And calling themselves that. like Betty Friedan was actively anti-lesbian. And I don't really see a lot of mention to these things here. So what bothers me is the way that there's like, and it's not like in 2012, people didn't know that, right? Especially Lindy West. I know she knew that. So it's like, you're trying to bring people in, but unfortunately, I feel like what you're doing is you're just bringing people into that same outdated, not intersectional,
version of feminism by still continuing to uplift and like sort of idolize these folks without bringing the reality of who they were. I think it's fine to talk about Betty Friedan and Susan B. Anthony and folks, we can talk about their contributions, but only if we equally talk about the ways that they caused harm because they caused very real harm. And this doesn't, or if it does, it's barely with like a little, like a blip of a notice of
Paige Worthy (she/her) (30:16.002)
Yes.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (30:23.948)
Yeah, yeah, like with a wink. And there's also no mention of people who were left on the outskirts of the movement at the time. like, what trails were they blazing? What were they bringing into the conversation that was being ignored? And I think like, there's room for fucking line breaks in this piece. My God, it was hard to read. But there is...
Becky Mollenkamp (30:50.748)
It's exceptionally short too, so there was plenty of space for her to write more.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (30:54.36)
There's room, right? We don't have word limits on web pages, right? Like, I mean, maybe she was writing to a word limit, but there's stuff you could take out, girlfriend. Where is your editor?
Becky Mollenkamp (31:08.306)
Yeah, mean, so this is right. Well, I know, maybe the Jezebel editors at that time and maybe still didn't care. It was from just so people know, too, it's from a book called How to Be a Person, the Stranger's Guide to College. So obviously, the idea is writing this for younger women. And unfortunately, what I think happened is Lindy is writing from her own experience of being a young white woman.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (31:25.134)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (31:33.394)
maybe coming into an understanding around feminism and wanting to speak to that. But unfortunately, all she's doing is perpetuating white feminism. Because this very much
Paige Worthy (she/her) (31:41.578)
Okay, so that's where the... There was a line that I did not understand. It's, you're not a feminist or something blamelessly ignorant, like a baby or a ferret or a college freshman, and I was like, what are you talking about? That makes a lot more sense that she's actually talking to college students.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:59.092)
It's to be for those folks. the part of this that bothered me the most, I'm interested in what you think, was the subhead that says, male privilege. It is real and it is totally bogus. And I don't understand that. So she talks about privilege being invisible. You have no idea what male privilege is. If you have no idea what male privilege is, there's a good chance you're benefiting from male privilege. That's how privilege works.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (32:21.388)
you're benefiting from it.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:23.528)
But what does this mean that it's totally bogus? It's real and it's totally bogus. it meaning, okay, hold on. My brain's finally getting there. She means it's Got it. I was like, how are you saying it's real and it's bogus? Got it, it's bullshit. Okay, yeah. Okay, at she was saying that.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (32:28.62)
It's like, it's like it's bullshit. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (32:35.308)
Yeah, and if a critical thinker like you reads that and is like, what? And like, you're not the only one. Yeah, there's like a lack of...
Becky Mollenkamp (32:45.928)
Yeah, I read the paragraph. didn't reread the headline, but I reread the paragraph a few times going like, wait a minute. I don't see how you're here saying that it's not because bogus to me means not real, which is different than bullshit, or it's a bunch of crap or I hate it or whatever. Like to me that means
Paige Worthy (she/her) (32:56.738)
Yep. Yep. Yeah. I think it was like totally, totally bogus. Like in the, in nineties speak. Totally bogus. Yeah. I did, I did like the last, the last sentence in that privilege is real and anyone who tells you otherwise is Ann Coulter. Like Ann Coulter hate is forever. Timeless. God, she's the worst.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:07.12)
Sure, yeah, because everyone talks that way.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:20.766)
For sure. And you know, it's the time for wild when she has actually been a little more sane in like the mago world lately than some of the other folks, which is terrifying. But yeah, I don't know. I saw my
Paige Worthy (she/her) (33:31.724)
Yeah. But isn't it, wasn't she speaking out events about tariffs though? Like it was something not at all related to like being a human.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:38.448)
it only has it will only be something that benefits her. So whatever it is, it would have to be something that I'm sure it's about money and not about people because she doesn't care about people. I don't know that she is a person. I think she might be a bot. I have no idea. Yeah. Well, this piece, I think we both agree is probably not worth if you're listening to this podcast, it's probably not worth reading because I think it's probably way earlier than other than
Paige Worthy (she/her) (33:42.786)
That affects her, right.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (33:49.942)
Yeah.
Yeah, she's cyborg.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (34:03.223)
Yup.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:06.226)
The thing that I think it can be helpful with potentially is understanding. If you are one of those people who cares to try and meet people where they are, or at least understand where people are, I do think it can be helpful for understanding because to me this is, it just reads like peak white feminism. And I think if you need a better understanding of what white feminism looks like, like when we, cause sometimes people will be like, I don't really get it. I always recommend reading white feminism by Koa Beck because it's a
Paige Worthy (she/her) (34:22.562)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:33.46)
great book written by a woman of color who speaks to these issues. And I think that that's who we should be learning from. But if you're like, I just want to see, it's fantastic. Although you may not need it because you're probably beyond white feminism, but it's still really good to read. if you are, well, that's maybe not, you know, I think we're, mean, I can't say I'm beyond it. I'm still sussing out where I have it.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (34:38.956)
I'll put that on my list. Awesome.
God, I hope I am.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:54.728)
But I think for people who are like, don't understand what white feminism looks like, like show me what it looks like. This to me is sort of what it looks like. It looks like trying, it looks like girl bossing too close to the sun, right? It looks like being like, I'm all about girl power, Ray John sisters, yeah. Without giving any more context about like, like you said, who's being left out, who's on the margins. How do these things that have happened, yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (35:11.533)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (35:18.104)
Who's being harmed?
Becky Mollenkamp (35:20.968)
who these people that were uplifting, how have they caused harm? It's like, this is exactly what it looks like, unfortunately. And again, I really love Shrill and I think it did such a better job around these issues. So I do think that shows her evolution, but this shows sort of what that white feminism can look like. So I think it's valuable to read it in that way of getting that better understanding of it and maybe understanding where some of your white feminist friends who are a little like the more on that girl bossy train, what they probably know.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (35:34.818)
Yes.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (35:38.723)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:50.258)
what they probably think, and maybe how you can speak to the parts where they're missing. Stop.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (35:55.894)
It's a yes and for sure. And by the way, that's plenty charitable of you. So maybe we're like crossing. Yeah, and you know.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:58.388)
There we go.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:02.42)
Thank you, that's where I, there we go.
It's rubbing off on me. Maybe I maybe I just need to wake up a little more and get to that place I wake up in rage and then I stop him
Paige Worthy (she/her) (36:12.174)
Yeah, I made a note that, you know, I think that there are more recent pieces that cover the history and evolution of feminism a little bit better with less of a focus on the lols, right? Because this is obviously a humor piece as much as is a, like, guess what, you're a feminist piece. I don't...
don't think it's terribly successful on either end, but you know, like it's also not gonna take you forever to read it. like give it a scan, laugh about how dated it is. Yeah, it'll take you more time to try to get through one of those walls of text without losing your place than it will to actually read the whole piece once you can do that.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:53.287)
Yeah, it'll take you like five minutes.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:07.22)
It'll take more time to listen to your inner voice going, are you fucking kidding me? And like, what, and where's the, then actually reading it. That was my experience. I feel like we've been unkind and now I'm worried about that. I don't know why, because I think it's important to be critical of stuff that shows up white feminists. And I think it's because it really, here, that's where I'm to be terrible is I think it does show though how far we can come.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (37:12.046)
No!
Paige Worthy (she/her) (37:16.248)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (37:26.583)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:35.858)
Right? Because I, this is, I mean, if this was me in college and she's speaking to college kids, that's where I feel like it's a missed opportunity is, wait, you have this opportunity to help these kids going into college to understand why their feminism is so lacking and what needs to change. And I think also this piece should have been very clearly labeled like, Hey yo, this is for white people. This is for the white girls and the white boys. This is because I don't think anyone who is not white would be with.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (37:36.216)
Absolutely.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:03.41)
Like I think you would only rage at reading something like this, I would hope, because it does so clearly exclude you. But I do think like, if I'm being honest, this speaks to where I was in 1993.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (38:10.733)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (38:18.168)
Sure.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:18.9)
Not 2012, but at that age. It speaks to where I was at. Like my feminism, you know, in my teens into my maybe, well, mostly in my teens, early, early 20s, looked like this. It looked like this. And I'm willing, like, I think we also need to honor that, like to step up and say, yeah, this was what my feminism was. Because if someone does read this and say, like, what's wrong with this piece? Because there's probably people who would, right? They'd read it and say, what's wrong with it? I don't want you to feel
Paige Worthy (she/her) (38:32.771)
Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:48.624)
shamed, shameful and disgust- like icky after hearing this because I want you to know like I also remember being that version of feminism.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (38:52.032)
Yup.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (38:56.118)
Yeah, but I also...
I know, I also wonder, like, kids, kids, Jesus, I guess I'm that age now. Kids today, kids like going into college, like kids are fucking smart now. Like, I don't, like, whoa. And I wonder even what the children would think if they, like, if they looked at this book. The full, the full...
Becky Mollenkamp (39:05.32)
this kids today.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:13.922)
yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (39:30.104)
title of this book is How to Be a Person, The Stranger's Guide to College Sex Intoxicants, Tacos, and Life Itself. okay, and like Dan Savage is the co-author and I have some mixed feelings about Dan Savage that I can't really articulate.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:42.132)
Wow, that's a lot of food.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:53.844)
I was gonna say, mean, he's definitely been problematic.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (39:59.05)
Yeah, he's... Yeah. So I just, I don't know what today's youths would think about this. I think we recognize it as something that we experienced at a time in our lives. But I also think that people who are going to subscribe to the ideals of feminism now do know better at the outset, or most of them do.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:25.754)
I hope you're right, Paige. I think you're right about the kids, the kids today. Like I think about my nieces who are in college, young college women. There's some of my own stuff showing up, right? Still calling them girls, they are women. And yeah, I think that they would know. Yeah, right. I think they know better than this. Their feminism has evolved well past this. Because there's also very little
Paige Worthy (she/her) (40:41.742)
Yep, Coeds.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:54.352)
about LGBTQ in here. mean, there's a little, not, you anyway, they're, they're well evolved beyond that. guess what I'm thinking is more of the folks who are women probably in their forties, like elder millennials, young Gen Xers, maybe even all millennials, I don't know, but certainly elder millennials, who this was their feminism in college, who maybe haven't evolved beyond that. Right. Because
Paige Worthy (she/her) (40:58.381)
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (41:13.496)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:22.196)
I think I run into those folks a lot in the, I don't know if you do, in the entrepreneurial space. It's that girl bossy, despite the fact that they're very, very grown ass women who are still like girl bossy, right? That girl power kind of folk who grew up with a vision of feminism that, and I'm speaking very much about white women here, to be clear, who grew up with this white feminist, this vision of feminism and haven't.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (41:31.0)
Yup. Yeah. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (41:40.747)
Absolutely.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (41:45.238)
We girls can do anything, right Barbie?
Becky Mollenkamp (41:48.468)
Right? Exactly. For those folks for whom Barbie was a revelation, right? Instead of it being like, okay, I get it. it was like, is this like shocking? Like that speech at the end that, right, the people who for whom that speech from America Ferrero was like life changing. Right. But that's the thing that they still exist, Paige, like as much as I want to believe we've evolved beyond that, right? I'm with you. I do think like when I think about my nieces, they have evolved beyond
Paige Worthy (she/her) (41:58.616)
Is this all there is?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (42:03.342)
Oh boy. Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:15.272)
There are a lot that still haven't because they're being raised by these millennials and these Gen Xers, one. So they're getting that version from their mom and hopefully they're learning beyond it. But some of them aren't. Or those folks themselves that are still in that 30s, 40s, mostly in the 40s sort of rage, rage, who never got beyond this. This is still what they think of when they think of feminism. And that's why I think for folks who are maybe listening, I don't know how, but you're here and I appreciate it. And you're thinking like,
Paige Worthy (she/her) (42:19.576)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:44.646)
If you're white in a white body and you're going, OK, wait a minute, is my feminism intersectional? Has my feminism evolved? Is my feminism lacking? Like, if you read this piece and it leaves you saying, I'm not sure I see the problem, then that's an invitation. I don't want that to be a judgment or an anger. right? Yeah, it's an invitation to say, let's do more. And I think there's other episodes that are going to help you with that and many other readings that will help. And one of the reasons why I was trying to not do a lot of readings from white women.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (43:00.846)
Come on in. Yep.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:13.696)
And this is why, because unfortunately, now of course, something from Lindy that's newer would not, I would hope and I'm sure does not reflect this, but like this is what white feminism looks like in action. It looks like we can do anything and hey, Susan B Anthony showed us we can, like no, no, no.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (43:22.604)
Hopefully. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (43:33.816)
Yeah, and like we can do anything. And like there's a couple more steps in there. Like, it's not just like glass ceiling.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:38.174)
Yes! But only if we all can do anything.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:46.3)
Right. Well, what it means is like, right? Yeah, you white bodied person can do anything. But does that mean we collectively women can do anything? And that's the invitation for that further exploration, because I know like this is always where I feel like it's so important for us to be vulnerable and candid and honest about the fact that my feminism used to look like this. And it's pained me now to have to admit that.
But it's true and I think it's important to admit that because I think other white women need to see like we can grow beyond this and we must grow beyond this.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (44:21.358)
Yes, I mean, and nobody, comes out of the womb of fully baked, you know, nuanced feminist or, or whatever their cause celebra is. Like, no, we have to learn.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:41.896)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (44:42.902)
We have to learn.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:44.724)
And you know what it makes me think too is this is not exactly related to this, but it is in a way because I think some people listening will resonate with this and you may as well. It's this learning in public in a way that didn't have to happen pre-internet. So like Lindy, if this was pre-internet days, I have a feeling this wouldn't have, I don't know, maybe because it did end up in a book. So I guess I shouldn't say that. But like a lot of this kind of rhetoric, this kind of writing,
might not have ever been seen, or at least wouldn't have been seen by as many people, or wouldn't have lived on the way it does now, right? wouldn't, and it's that learning in public thing that scares a lot of people into saying, like, they don't want to talk about things, they don't want to, they don't want to take a stand on anything. Yeah, because we're all so afraid of like, you know, Lindy, I'm sure this existing, I would hope, probably makes her cringe. But then maybe there's also that part of being able to say, yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (45:28.664)
Call out culture.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:41.032)
And look, I've evolved and I've grown and it's possible for all of us. But that is like, I can see where it makes people feel like I don't wanna come on a show like this and have this conversation because what if in 10 years I sound like an asshole for it, right? Because we've evolved and grown beyond that version of whatever it is. And I feel that as somebody who's very public, but I don't know, does that resonate with you at all? Because I hear that kind of thing from people, especially like in this political climate, people not wanting to take a stand on things.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (45:53.006)
Yep. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (46:03.342)
It definitely does. Well, and my God, where I've, you know, I'm immediately thinking about like the comments section, right? Which I can't, I'm like a moth to a flame. I can't keep away from it. But there's, like we're so quick to jump on somebody who.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:08.82)
How do you deal with it?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (46:31.052)
you know, is giving a bullshit take. Like there's, there's no calling in. It's all calling out. And it's, I totally get why people are gun shy about, you know, speaking up about something. Like if, if we were all just like a smidge more charitable toward one another, like they're
But we'd be in a very different place in general, like beyond the comment section, if we were all a little bit more charitable toward one another, I think. At least in that learning out loud way. But man.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:03.092)
Yeah, but see, Paige, that takes me back to the more kinder people and like not just raging. And that's why I vacillate so much in that space. And there are times where I feel so much more charitable. I like, again, with men where I'm like, no, like they swim in these waters and who's going to educate them. know, there are those times where I'm like, yeah, and I can jump into those waters. But there's a lot more times where I just can't find that charity in myself.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (47:10.818)
Mm-hmm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (47:23.427)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:32.094)
But if I can't, it's like how we do anything is how we do everything. And so if I can't find it for those men, then I can't find it for Lindy. But I'm finding it for Lindy, so I need to extend the same to other spaces. I don't know, that's where like Amelia again, I feel is more evolved than I am.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (47:48.046)
Yeah, but we're finding space for 2012, Lindy. And that's really different. think, and there are shades of bullshit, right? Like there are comments that we can read as like, oh, this person should know better. This person is rage baiting. This person is an asshole. Like you can see those things pretty...
Becky Mollenkamp (47:53.608)
Yes, that's true.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (48:18.03)
pretty out loud. And you can see when, I think, when someone just has a misguided notion about something or whatever. And there are some days when I'm feeling spicier than other days. And sometimes I'll dive in, especially now I'm sort of understanding the allure of having like an Instagram handle that isn't your real name. So I'm like,
I have a different Instagram handle now. I have a private account and man, nobody can come for me. I'm I'm a straight up stranger on the internet and there's like, I kind of understand why people hide behind anonymity on the internet. Like I can see the appeal and I'm not going to wield that as a rule. But the...
Becky Mollenkamp (49:06.971)
huh.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (49:15.886)
The times when somebody kind of comes for me and says like, yo, this is not, this is not the way, which doesn't, I'm not saying like, doesn't happen to me really. But the times that it does happen, I really try to sit back, take a beat and actually think about what I've been, what I've been told.
Um, because I, I am a person who craves learning every day. I want to take in diverse perspectives. I want to want to understand what I'm getting wrong so that in another 12, 13 years, I can look back and cringe at myself, but then also celebrate how far I've come and
you know, whatever, whatever new things I can contribute to the conversation. Like I want to, I want to be proud of that. And the only way we can do that is by continuing to learn and being willing to fuck it up in public.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:20.808)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:29.566)
Yeah. I mean, I agree. I fuck it up in public all the time. And I think the fear piece is mostly from people with a lot of privilege who haven't learned how to make amends, right? Who haven't learned what it looks like to do restorative justice or, you know, harm repair in a way that's healthy. And again, there's the waters we swim in. How would you know if you've never seen it, if you've never really experienced it?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (50:44.526)
Mm.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (50:55.117)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:56.456)
If you've never been taught about it and shown that it's important, right? Because you've been always sort of shown when you have a lot of privilege, you're sort of taught that you don't have to do that stuff, right? That that's not important and that you're right and double down and all of that, get defensive. So learning those things helps me because then I know I know I'm in a mess up. There's no way that you can learn and learn out loud and not mess up. But I know how to handle it if I do. But I also will say my relationship with social media is also changing in the other piece of that of like
Paige Worthy (she/her) (51:04.93)
Yep. Top of the food chain.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:26.844)
It's not just about not wanting to show up because I don't, still don't mind. Like I love that piece. It's actually the part I like about social media, but what I don't love is what it can do to me, who it turns me into sometimes. And that's the part I still need to work on because you're right. Like the comment section or like, I can feel that urge to be the one to be the one who shows up to say, you're wrong. You got it wrong. Right. Don't you know better? And why do I want to do that? Because it makes me feel better. It makes me think. Exactly.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (51:44.398)
Clap back.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (51:50.606)
because it makes you feel like the good one.
Yup.
Becky Mollenkamp (51:56.06)
And that is something we all have to evaluate in ourselves as well. Because my urge to be looking at this piece saying, she should know better, and she should have done better, and whatever. There can be truth to that, but what good does that do? That's just me wanting to prove that I'm better, and I know, and I'm a good, yeah. Exactly. What is healthy is the parts where we discuss, well, what could have been better? What was missing? Those sorts of things.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (52:11.554)
that you're more evolved.
Yeah, yup.
Becky Mollenkamp (52:21.876)
And that's the part that the nuance that you mentioned that doesn't really happen in 140 characters or whatever the counts are these days. Like you can't have those kinds of nuanced conversations on social media, which is what more and more keeps me away. Because more and more I'm like without nuance, all we're left with is people trying to prove themselves, trying to one up with each other, you know, all of that. Like it's all toxicity.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (52:43.372)
Yep. Those are like, now we also have like those waters that we swim in that have become so polluted and so addictive by design. that is, that's the box that we've been shoved into and reduced to. And that's by design too. Like it's the same, like we now have like
Becky Mollenkamp (52:58.1)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (53:13.006)
ads shoved down our throats every moment of the day and like social social media has ceased to be social. Now it's just like it's like hot take media all the time. And yeah, I know there's there's been a big rise in Substack, right, which is is like reminiscent of the the blogs of yesteryear.
Becky Mollenkamp (53:26.43)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (53:42.552)
where in a way that like the news isn't, like the comments on the New York Times have become an absolute cesspool of people who are like supposedly smart, just like blah, blah, blah, blah at each other. But Substack feels like for now, one of those frontiers of a return to discourse, which like is.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:04.958)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:08.766)
which is why I think so many people are having a hard time leaving based on a lot of the stuff around platforming Nazis and monetizing and making money off of, know, profiting off of Nazi voices. like, I, this is where we have to get to things are nuanced. It is so difficult to have these conversations because I'm still using Substack. I have a lot of thoughts about it. I struggle with it. And where's my alternative?
And the alternatives so far that are presented to me don't deliver. wouldn't have met you on those. Like this is how we connected is through Substack, through being in a shared space.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (54:40.12)
Through Jessica Valenti's One Good Thing.
Becky Mollenkamp (54:43.26)
Yes, make sure you subscribe if you don't through this, you know, supporting one person who's doing really good work in the world that aligns with both of our values and being able to be in space together virtually and connecting through there, mostly because I knew your name because I was like, I know your sister. And so then we ended up getting, but your world is so small and weird, right? And it's all like different states and everything. But anyway, but that doesn't exist in another space right now. So like, do I isolate myself or do I
Paige Worthy (she/her) (54:58.672)
So wild! my god.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:13.084)
make my values not quite aligned. Like these are challenging questions we all have to face and there are no easy answers. yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (55:19.446)
Yeah, I think if we went nuclear on every problematic platform or whatever, we would be sitting in the dark churning butter right now. And I'd love to make my own butter, but...
Becky Mollenkamp (55:28.436)
Right. Or worse. Or worse, we would be in Handmaid's Tale too, right? Like, so it could be even worse than Charming Butter. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (55:35.182)
God. Yeah. Yes. Although I think I would make an excellent Martha. So if anyone is listening to this, you don't want me as a handmaid. Like I'll make bread for you. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (55:46.788)
I am no longer qualified for handmade-ism as I am rounding the end of that home plate on those things. I would be one of ones. Exactly, I would be out at the colony. So that sucks. It all sucks, but I really don't want that. It's not.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (55:54.422)
Bitch, you're going to the colonies.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (56:02.146)
That's so not funny. I'm like, okay, we've gone to this place. Time to wrap it.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:08.182)
look, now we're like Lindy, and we're trying to make jokes out of these things. yes, to your point, well, I say to your point, yeah, if we went nuclear on everything and said anything that's wrong, anyone who makes a mistake has to be gone, we also wouldn't have shrill. And shrill is amazing. I love shrill, right? So like, also that's part of that we have to allow people space for their journey. And that to me is, think a lot of what I get out of this too, is like, we have to allow space for the journey.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (56:10.958)
Listen, laugh. Laugh to keep from crying.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (56:27.886)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:37.18)
And we can't be so quick to write people off, especially when they're trying. I mean, I think that this shows an effort. Exactly, exactly.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (56:42.444)
when they're trying, not willfully ignorant assholes who literally should know better.
Becky Mollenkamp (56:48.244)
Yeah, right. Fuck them. The Andrew Tate of the world. Yeah, Andrew Tate's never going to try. He's never going to learn. He's very much, he's monetizing willful ignorance. that's so okay. No, I'm not extending any amount of empathy for that. But you know, the so many folks who are getting sort of called in or called out around something like this as an example, like I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater as it is. That sounds horrible. It's a really horrible phrase. But I'm not willing to do that because
Paige Worthy (she/her) (57:15.19)
It's a wild phrase. I need to look up where that stems from.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:17.168)
It really is, But because I it does. Then who's left? I said I know that I have said things I have said things that I would never say now. I have done written thought, whatever things that were not aligned with how I show up today. I wouldn't want to be held accountable or held today on the standard of what I said in my teens. Like, no, I you know, or in my early 20s or, you know, even in my 30s, like I am like you growing and learning.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (57:24.29)
Who's left?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (57:42.048)
Mm-mm. Yeah, or like, yeah, or like 10 years ago for me.
Becky Mollenkamp (57:51.336)
which is what this is, right? So yeah, take it for what it's worth. Okay, I like to end these by asking, do you recommend people read it if so, who?
Paige Worthy (she/her) (57:53.026)
Yep.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (57:59.726)
I, yeah, mean, yeah, read it. I think anyone who's listening to this should, should read it. I don't think a, a young, highly malleable mind necessarily needs to read this. like there, there are better, better things for you to take in that aren't going to like muddy the waters for you. But if, if you're, you know, a geriatric millennial, like I am definitely read it, read it for a look back. Hopefully you get to have a little.
I roll in a giggle about it. And I look how far I've come and I look how far we've come. And, you know, maybe it'll give you some flags to look out for so that you can hopefully, charitably call in a pussy hat wearing sister who isn't quite hitting the mark now, not to feel like the...
Becky Mollenkamp (58:31.912)
And look how far I've come moment, yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (58:55.394)
the better, bigger person, but in service of all of us moving past this.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:00.21)
Yeah, an invitation to progress. agree. I think I would not recommend anyone who's not white read it because I don't think you need to be traumatized in that way for any reason. Because I do think that I could see where that exclusion would feel anger inducing, traumatizing, whatever. So like, I don't see any point in that. But I do think for white women, most especially, like you said, those of a certain age, I think it's a great place to either check yourself on is my has my feminism evolved beyond this? And if it hasn't,
Okay, great, there's an opportunity to learn. And if it has, I think it's also that great reminder of just like, yeah, look at that, fuck yeah, I've evolved. And that does feel good. See if you can find the spot where it's missing, because it does feel a little good of just not like a, a, hey, you're a bad way, but a like, man, I bet you in my 20s, wouldn't have caught these things that now raise flags and it does feel good. yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Paige, for having this conversation with me. It was awesome. You're awesome. Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (59:27.683)
Yeah.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (59:33.954)
Yeah, yeah it does.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (59:46.966)
It does.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (59:51.534)
That was so good. I love talking to you. You're awesome, even with Vertigo. What a baddie.
Becky Mollenkamp (59:58.123)
Just looking straight forward. As long as I look straight forward, I'm good to go. All right. Talk to you again soon. Bye.
Paige Worthy (she/her) (01:00:02.943)
Hopefully, me like bobbing and weaving didn't throw off your equilibrium. I'm a very active talker.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:00:06.056)
I'm just, sadly, I just have to look at myself. All right, thank you.