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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
PJ (00:05.378)
Hello and welcome to Chasing Leviathan. I'm your host, PJ Weary, and I'm here today with Dr. William Adams, Associate Professor of Psychology at Duquesne University, and we're talking about his book, A Wild and Sacred Call, Nature, Psyche, Spirit. Part of the State University of New York Transpersonal and Humanistic Psychology series. Dr. Adams, Will, glad to have you on today.
Will Adams (00:32.443)
Hey there, PJ. I really appreciate the invitation to talk about these matters that I think are really crucial for our world today. So, yeah, and I'm glad you call me Will. That's what I go by.
PJ (00:43.182)
I'm gonna go to bed.
PJ (00:47.494)
I used to teach high school and they enforced me being called Mr. Weary and I just never felt comfortable with it. And so I appreciate that impulse. Definitely have always just gone by PJ. It just seems to fit me better. But as we look at your book, Wild and Sacred Call, why this book? I mean, like anything about climate change does have that house on fire. You know, you quote the Greta Thunberg line.
has that house on fire quality, but why this book and why is it your answer and your project in regards to the current climate crisis?
Will Adams (01:25.155)
Yes, yes. So I see the climate crisis as a symptom of a bigger problem. And it seems like to me that our confused and violent and anguished relationship with the rest of nature
PJ (01:34.347)
Hmm.
Will Adams (01:52.879)
is really the core issue of our era, the core ethical calling of our era. And to create a mutually enhancing relationship between us and the rest of nature, I think that that's really the calling, the ethical calling, a wild and sacred call.
which is the title of my book. And so my book was my best scholarly response to that call, that crucial call of our era.
PJ (02:28.682)
I did want to ask you, and you mentioned this seems to be, if I understood correctly, part of the whole Department of Psychology at Duquesne, that you are comfortable integrating philosophy, especially continental philosophy, into a lot of your work. Can you talk a little bit about the research and methodology used for this book? Because it is unusual, at least by most academic standards.
Will Adams (02:55.667)
Yes. Well, I'm very privileged to teach at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We have a really radical alternative progressive psychology program. And we just had our 60th anniversary celebration back in the spring. And in a field, psychology, which I have great respect for, but I also can critique, you know, a field that
like many today are, is, you know, tends to be rather conservative in wanting to have certain traditions upheld, which I appreciate. To have an alternative program that has flourished for 60 years is quite an accomplishment. And by alternative, I mean we're grounded in,
really thinking through the foundations of what it means to be human and to be human with others, including to be human with others that are of the natural world, the more than human natural world. Like what are the ontological and epistemological and ethical foundations that we need to be tuned into to craft a psychology that can serve folks well, both in
in research and in theory and in psychotherapy. We have a PhD program in clinical psychology. And I've practiced therapy for a long time. So grounded in existentialism and phenomenology and hermeneutics and post structuralism and continental philosophy. And it's a program that allows me to bring in
the psychological or psychospiritual sensibilities of the great spiritual traditions. Buddhism and Christianity are the two that I know the best.
Will Adams (05:03.879)
I bring in some other things in the book, but those are the two that I know the best and I work with more closely. So that's a long prelude to say what was my method and methodology for crafting the book. My primary methodology, methodology to me means the logos of the method, kind of the theory of the method and the method itself is more procedural, okay.
PJ (05:28.878)
Mm.
Will Adams (05:32.819)
So the logos of the method for me was, how do I write a book that doesn't simply talk about our relations with the rest of nature, but somehow creates the conditions by way of a text, creates the experiential conditions for seeing that relationship more deeply and transforming that relationship.
for human wellbeing and for the wellbeing of the rest of nature. So that was the core methodological orientation. I wasn't trying to like just re-present ideas. I was trying to present things in a fresh way that might sponsor real transformation. And I worked phenomenologically. So...
Will Adams (06:31.799)
I try to keep returning to actual tangible lived experience. Now in our relations, our troubled relations with the rest of nature, I don't think phenomenology is enough. We need systemic sociocultural transformation, economic, political, religious, social transformation, systemic transformation. But that...
Transformation, I think, still is grounded in people's lived experience. If you don't have direct lived experiential contact with conscious contact with the rest of nature, then you're not going to have any motivation to sponsor new laws or economic policies or whatever. OK, so I ground my work in phenomenology, which has to do with a careful attunement to understanding and unfolding lived.
experience. So the book is filled with stories from everyday life, some from my own life, some from other people's lives, people that I know, people that I've met. It's also filled with poetry because I think poets are the exemplary masters of articulating lived experience. And it's set into dialogue with
PJ (07:52.04)
Hmm.
Will Adams (07:59.447)
key spiritual and philosophical ideas and psychological ideas that I find very crucial in our relations with the rest of nature. So that kind of orients you and maybe orients the listeners to where the book is coming from.
PJ (08:19.198)
Even as you talked about what's important to the decane department of psychology, and you mentioned like this approaching psychology is what does it mean to be human? I mean, I think that's in large part what drew me to your book, right? Like when you talk about, I have a big questions podcast and there are, you could argue there are other big questions or bigger questions, but definitely what does it mean to be human is, is one of those big questions. So again, thank you for coming on today. I'm very,
I'm really excited to talk through all this.
Will Adams (08:54.311)
And even to say, what does it mean to be human is a little bit abstract. I'm really interested in what does it mean to live well, to love well? That's, that's really what I'm interested in.
PJ (09:02.038)
Mm.
PJ (09:05.278)
Right, right. Well, that's you kind of end with the nature. Love is our nature. Love is our calling. Love is our path. Love is our fruition. And you mentioned, though, you referenced Christianity, and that there's this idea of perfection, which in a Cartesian world, in a technologically boxed in world, has kind of this mathematical concept to it. But I was drawn to the idea of
When in scripture when they're talking about perfection, they're talking about completion and it's often in a very natural way talking about in terms of trees and harvest and If your tree bears a lot of good fruit, it is perfect It has it is matured and so this idea of fruition of maturity I have always found, you know Connected with this idea of human flourishing. I think these are healthier ways for our society to go
And so, some of this is me making sure I'm tracking with you, but also I'm geeking out a little bit.
Will Adams (10:16.343)
Nah, it's great. Share whatever ideas come to mind. I mean, really, that's what a real conversation is. You know, we spark each other. Yeah, so please share whatever comes to mind and we'll go back and forth. Yeah. Just in parentheses, let me, can I just mention in parentheses, PJ? Since, I mean, the book is an exploration of relationship and I'm just aware, on the screen here, when I look at you, you're very, very blurry.
PJ (10:30.131)
And good. Yeah.
Will Adams (10:45.415)
And I don't know if that's just an artifact of the transmission, but I can work with it. But it's really nice to be able to see you, but it's very blurry.
PJ (10:45.597)
Oh.
PJ (10:57.082)
Oh, so the recording will be clearer. So don't worry about that. The, uh, it records at the local level and then whatever we see is just whatever's live. That's why we use this platform so we can get what the camera's catching. So, but that's fair because, uh, I, one time I had to do a podcast where I couldn't see the other person and it is astonishing when you cannot read the other person's face. Like there's a real loss there. Um, and when you talk about things relationally, um,
I and I you know
The temptation when you say a wild and sacred called nature, psyche, spirit, is to say, well, what do you mean by nature? And I'll kind of ask that, but I'm gonna ask that knowing that your response is to avoid this hard and fast definition, you know, even as you have that whole section on powerfully charged words. But maybe if you could orient, or one of the words that came to me as I was reading what you were...
writing, you could inspire our audience with how you use words like nature and psyche and spirit.
Will Adams (12:07.35)
You do go for the big questions, don't you?
PJ (12:10.841)
No pressure. Yeah.
Will Adams (12:14.323)
Well, yeah, the subtitle of the book is nature-psych-spirit. And the hyphens are really important because I think each of these dimensions are different sides of one another. They're interwoven. They're an integral unity, really, dynamic one.
Will Adams (12:41.191)
And that's in contrast to the core malady of our era, seeing humans and the rest of nature being separate. And we can circle back to this. Because in a way, that's what the book is about and is aspiring to create conditions for us to overcome. That delusion that we're really separate from, elevated above and entitled to exploit the rest of nature.
What do I mean by nature? In the midst of writing the book, I came across a book and I can't remember the guy that wrote it, but it was like key words in the English language. And he said, nature is perhaps the most mysterious and complex word in the whole English language.
Will Adams (13:36.347)
And so in the introduction, I do take some time to go into detailed
Will Adams (13:47.807)
variations of this core word that's pointing to a core experience.
Will Adams (13:58.107)
Off the top of my head, I probably can't even remember all of them because it's probably eight or ten of them that I list. But let me just name two that I think are important. Two or three. Partly, I'm referring to the more than human or the other than human natural world. More than human natural world is a beautiful phrase from David Abram, the eco philosopher, who's been a great inspiration.
an ally for me. So I'm partly referring to non-human nature.
And I often say the rest of nature because we humans are nature. We're an expression of, a manifestation of nature. But.
I think one of the core things that we need to do these days is to become conscious of our relationship with the rest of nature and thereby foster more compassionate, healthy, life enhancing relations rather than alienated, anguished, exploitive relations, destructive relations. So partly I'm meaning the more than human natural world.
Will Adams (15:25.164)
I am meaning us humans.
inseparably. Another way that I use nature is more akin to the philosophical and spiritual sense of the whole of all that is, the all-inclusive, all-permeating life itself. Not just biological life, but this whole
whole great life that goes by this whole great unnameable mystery that goes by many names, right? That it could be called, I mean, even to say it is bizarre because it's not an it, but this whole great mystery could be called life or reality or the universe or cosmos or being.
And if you want to turn to spiritual traditions, perhaps, you know, God or the Tao.
Will Adams (16:34.923)
There are ways that what I'm calling nature shows itself, and that to me is thoroughly congruent with these classic sort of time-honored spiritual names for the unnameable mystery.
PJ (16:58.138)
Um, as you were talking about the humans being separate, but we're really not right. Like we shouldn't be. Um, I remember the first time and it was such an eye-opening experience. And, uh, it was from the movie, um, ghost in the shell. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but, um, they, the, uh, it might've been the second one with first, I can't remember, like there, there's like a whole series. And, but, uh,
Will Adams (17:18.215)
I don't know that one, huh.
PJ (17:27.19)
The two characters are talking, looking out over the city, and one of the characters says the other, and I believe she compared it to a termite mound. She said, you know, we understand that a termite mound is an expression of the termite's DNA, but we don't look around at the city and recognize that, you know, like, really, these are artifacts of our DNA. Like that, you know, because we see ourselves as separate or as a part, we don't recognize that even the cities and the technology is that, that grows out.
our expressions of what it means to be human. And that was really eye-opening because there's always been nature in technology, especially growing up in a modernist worldview. I think I was right on the cusp of where that has started transition. But this idea of the separateness from nature and instead seeing like...
I mean, the medals we take, they're still the Earth's medals, even if we arrange them differently. And so it's still all part of this entirety, this reality.
Will Adams (18:33.823)
That's exactly right, including we ourselves, and including our DNA. I think our DNA is actually an artifact of that great mystery. Not that the subject builds up as an artifact of our DNA. I think it goes the other way around. Our DNA and our embodied life and our culture are not artifacts, but...
like manifestations, emanations of this great life, this great seamless life that we share. But we act as if we're separate. We think as if we're separate. We imagine that our wellbeing can be independent of the wellbeing of the rest of nature. And this creates a really paranoid and greedy approach to the world.
And I'm not saying we're not different from the rest of nature. I mean, you and I are different. You know, I'm different from my dog laying here next to me. I, you know, I'm different from the rhododendron bush, but it's, you know, seen through a sensitive eye, you might even say a contemplative eye. It's very clear. We're not separate. And that separation creates fear, you know, and defensiveness and, you know, and then greed and exploitation.
That's the core delusion of humankind, I think.
PJ (20:03.802)
that lack of recognition even the. And this is, I think speaks to something I appreciate about your book. As you talked about climate, the climate crisis only being a symptom of a deeper root issue. And that's why if I understand you correctly, your goal is transformation, not information. This book isn't supposed to be about the climate crisis because it's not about us being able to control or change the world around us. It is about
first and foremost, the call, the need for our own transformation. Is that a fair way to articulate at least in one aspect?
Will Adams (20:41.703)
Yeah, I think that's a sensitive reading. That's really it. I mean, there's plenty of facts, there's plenty of information out there. And information's important as far as it goes, but it doesn't go far enough. And at best, the information can deepen into real understanding, to wisdom, to transformation that comes to its fruition in engaged, caring, compassionate action.
PJ (21:12.85)
And I think it would be unfair as you've talked so much about lived experience, not to at least dig into a few of the stories you relate. And there's that first really beautiful one about your son, Eli, seeing the deer and claiming, you know, it's falling from heaven. It's jumping from heaven. Can you talk a little bit about how that fits into the scheme of things and how that inspired and helped you? You talk about poetry as phenomenological data.
Um, and obviously you want to stay away from just like the idea that it's just an info dump, but what, can you speak to how you interpret that story in a way that, um, enriches your soul?
Will Adams (21:57.023)
Yeah.
Will Adams (22:00.591)
First of all, it was just such a beautiful experience. I mean, I start the book with a photograph of Eli when he was about two and a half, looking out a big picture window in our previous home. And right on the other side of the picture window is a white tail deer fallen. And...
I walked into my, it was in my study, and I walked in and snapped a photograph really quick because it was just so beautiful. It was like two toddlers enraptured by each other, fascinated by each other, right? And then as I was writing the book, I was aware that there's a real...
anguishing circumstance in our world today that if kids are having less and less aware contact with the rest of nature. Richard Louv, the journalist coined this term, nature deficit disorder, which I think is a powerful term and even more powerful malady. So I knew that Eli had that intimate encounter with that deer.
My wife Holly and I tried to help our kids be aware and tuned in to the natural world, in the midst of a technologically dominated world. Sometimes we did better and sometimes not so well. But then when, yeah, when he was about, I don't know, I'd have to just guess, I can't, I could count it back, but maybe he was.
PJ (23:42.635)
Hahaha.
Will Adams (23:55.191)
10 or so, we were driving away from our home at a different place. We live in the woods now. And he saw this white-tailed deer, an adult, bounding over a log. And he says, Dad, that deer was like falling from heaven.
And I was just struck by that, the awe that he felt. And also the phrase, because our family is quite spiritual, but we don't really talk about heaven that much. I mean, maybe hardly at all. I mean, you know, I mean, maybe we, as they got older, I celebrated my sense that, you know, heaven,
like the gospel say, the kingdom of heaven is among us, the kingdom of heaven is within us, or the quote I give in the book, all the way to heaven is heaven, right? So for him to actually see the heavenly, the sort of sacred dimension of that deer, gracefully bounding over that log, I thought that's it, that's really it.
Will Adams (25:22.36)
If indeed we could see that spontaneously, not because someone is telling us to see the world that way, not because the Ten Commandments or the Buddhist precepts, some sort of external code tells us that we should see the world that way, but if we really saw the world spontaneously like that, then we don't have mass extinction of species,
mountain range annihilation mining, which I talk about later in the book, then we don't have all the exploitation and excessive
Will Adams (26:05.687)
burning of fossil fuels, we don't have global warming. No, spontaneously, spontaneously we relate with care and compassion. Yeah, that holy, that sacred dimension is just completely evident, not because someone has to tell you that. And late in the book, I cite that beautiful poem from Wendell Berry.
where he says something like, there are no unsacred places, there are only sacred places and desecrated places. And I think we desecrate nature because of our confused views grounded in that fantasy of separation. So Eli wasn't separate, he was deeply just spontaneously attuned to that glorious event.
PJ (26:45.516)
Mm.
PJ (27:04.446)
Yeah, and I think my first response is, oh, what an incredible example of childlike wonder. But what I appreciate is you didn't use the word wonder, use the word awe, which captures that spiritual, that sacred dimension to it. That I do think, you know, obviously human beings, I think, have their own capacity to develop, I'll say, evil, or to develop sin, you know, to use theological language.
But it is astonishing how much is trained in us, right? When you talk about how much is, or trained out of us, in this case, this loss of insight, this loss of wonder. I think of my own kids and the joy they take, even in grass. And yeah, like I have five kids and the youngest is a year old and...
I mean, the way that like the dogs or like a dragonfly just makes her whole face light up and to call this like, you know, we have this little chunk of backyard in a suburban area nature is like, it feels desecrated, but she finds the joy in it. Right. And that that's something that and this I think is where I wanted what I wanted to ask you about next.
is that training aspect that development is that I want to nurture that wonder I want to nurture that awe but that's where you talk about the development of the ego because that's where we see the loss of the child is in the formation of that identity
Will Adams (28:53.871)
Yeah.
Will Adams (28:57.427)
Yeah, I mean, kids, kids are just spontaneously in awe, in wonderment, in delight, you know, mixed in with temper tantrums and all sorts of stuff, right? But
PJ (29:09.27)
Right, right, right. I did not have to teach my kids to hit other kids, right? That was, nah, I did not have to teach them that, yeah.
Will Adams (29:20.55)
But I think you're right, I think that does get cultured out of us. And with, you know.
you know, misguided educational systems.
You know, it gets cultured out of us. And one of the things that gets cultured into us is some fantasy that we really are separate from the rest of nature. And I think that partly has to do with the development of a certain kind of ego centered self, on the one hand, and inseparably or intertwined with this, a cultural ethos and worldview.
that emerged in the modern era that celebrated our supposed independence and autonomy from the rest of nature, our capacity, as Descartes said, to be masters and controllers, masters and possessors, I think he said, of nature, completely misguided. And I mean, there's ways we can back up and understand where this desire comes from. But because nature's...
Nature is not all sweetness and light, of course. It's fierce and dangerous. And so I understand sort of wish to master and control nature, but what hubris, right? As if we could control this great wild reality. So yeah, so when I was trying to understand if as I see it, separation is the sort of core malady from which springs.
PJ (31:03.108)
Hmm.
Will Adams (31:06.051)
all evil, all sin, all destructiveness. How does this separation arise? And I think it arises partly by way of our psychosocial development, looking at psychological theory, and it arises also, these two are intertwined from cultural influences that valorize a kind of independence that's ultimately illusory, but practically.
destructive.
PJ (31:41.826)
I remember someone talking about the climate crisis and making the point that the planet is not scared of humans and what humans are doing. We are going to be the ones who will reap the, you know, and the animals as well. But like the earth is not going to be destroyed by what we're doing. Right. Like the planet itself. It's bigger than us. And so just to be clear about the ramifications of what we're doing and why it's
Yeah, this isn't to downplay it, but also it's, I think, more to illustrate how big the systems in play are, right? Like, if that makes sense.
Will Adams (32:23.047)
It does make sense and it's heartening in one way. I mean, just to appreciate the infinite depth and intelligence and beauty of this whole earth or even whole cosmos will bring it down to earth. I think, yeah, that's gonna continue unfolding whether or not we find a way to stay around as a species or not. At the same time,
and this is what's so anguishing, our confusion is leading to the extinction of countless species and the extirpation of countless species and the destruction of habitat and the diminishment of biodiversity and the diminishment of human existence because, and our kids are suffering from this and we're suffering from it because
You know, all the four-legged ones and the winged ones and the leafed ones and the scaly ones and the blowing and flowing and airy ones, these have been our relational partners throughout the whole history of humankind. Our day-to-day relational partners with whom we've had this intimate rapport. And
When we extinguish these and when we withdraw into our human built world, screen focused world, and lose aware contact with the rest of nature, we're losing something at the heart of being human. So I am heartened that the earth itself is I think infinitely resilient. And I'm really heartbroken, heart opened.
in response to the suffering that we're wreaking on this wild and sacred earth.
PJ (34:25.742)
When you first spoke, I misunderstood when you said we live in this screen world, part of that's living in, you know, this world of screens, part of that's living in Florida. And so everybody's porch is screened in. And so I immediately thought of the screens there. But what I love is the ambivalence of that. Because obviously, in our culture, when we think of screens, now we think of phones, you know, the think of iPads and computers.
even what we're doing right now. And what's interesting is about the way like, yeah, we have these portals that we think of this different way of accessing. But another interesting thing about the word screen is it's another way of keeping things out.
Will Adams (34:57.596)
even what we're doing right now, which, yeah.
Will Adams (35:13.603)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I grew up in the South. You're in Florida. I grew up in North Carolina. And sitting outside in the summer, screen porches were nice because you didn't get so many mosquito bites. You know, I get that. Like they say, nature can be fierce and, you know, mosquitoes are just being mosquitoes. But I think there is a deeper...
PJ (35:16.79)
Ha ha!
Will Adams (35:40.771)
tendency that's been inculturated to screen ourselves from close intimate contact with the rest of nature and that's to our detriment and it's also to the detriment of all these other beings and presences whose life, whose very existence is being threatened because of our confusion.
PJ (36:04.394)
like to return to something you mentioned earlier, that you're trying to rekindle or keep alive the wonder and the inspiration and not rely on these external factors or these external standards like the Ten Commandments, like the Buddhist precepts. What role do you see for these laws or these training techniques? Should we...
uh what's the what's the point of setting these up as a culture?
PJ (36:39.782)
Or is there no, is there nothing positive about them? I don't think you're going to say that, but obviously that's, you know, the other side of that question.
Will Adams (36:49.171)
Yeah, my main point is that I think...
Will Adams (36:56.439)
When we can tune into our direct intimate experience, ethical actions flow quite naturally. I think it's...
Will Adams (37:13.799)
It's a misguided notion to think that we're just like intrinsically, you know, destructive and aggressive and greedy creatures. So I think I my sense is that when we attune to our own direct experience. That's the best ethical guideline. But of course,
External ethical guidelines are helpful within, you know, in a relative way. You know, it's really helpful to agree that we're going to drive on the right-hand side of the road, even though in England they drive on the left. It's completely arbitrable. We agree because if people didn't have that agreement, you know, we'd have a lot of car crashes. So having certain guidelines is helpful.
PJ (37:55.362)
Hahaha
Will Adams (38:11.399)
I think there's also an element where the sort of religious ethical pointers are really pointing out the deeper nature of how things always already are. And it can remind us to tune into those and embody them and actualize them.
um uh you know thou shalt not kill you know could be taken as a you know external commandment from
Will Adams (38:52.531)
somewhere else, a religious authority or God or whatever. But it could be pointing to the reality that if you meet face to face with another person and you're open to your direct experience, you're not gonna wanna kill them. You're gonna wanna care for them. That's the way we are. I think that's actually the way we are.
And so I think these external sort of prescriptions are actually reminding us of the deeper nature of things that then we can embody and live up to relationally.
PJ (39:42.314)
Yeah, you know, even as you talk about these powerfully charged words, there's echoes in what you're saying, you know, into Galatians where it says, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness, kindness. Against such there is no law. Right? Like, when you are walking in the spirit, as it says, you know, when you're walking this way, it's like...
You don't need the precepts, right? Because you don't have to make laws against someone being kind. Or, well, if you are, the law is wrong. And so that makes a lot of sense to me. How do you?
Will Adams (40:21.65)
Mm-hmm.
PJ (40:24.322)
How do you appropriate Christian mysticism in your book? Can you talk about that chapter?
Will Adams (40:33.527)
Sure. I grew up Presbyterian in North Carolina. My family went to church up until I was like an early teenager and then we sort of drifted away for various reasons. I came back to spirituality by way of psychology, getting interested in the psychology of consciousness. I'm a clinical
Will Adams (41:00.031)
psychology, although I thought I was going to teach tennis, so I didn't major in psychology as an undergrad. But I got interested in consciousness and that led me to meditation and the most accessible forms of meditation back then early 80s were Asian, particularly Buddhist. And I got very involved in practicing Buddhist meditation.
PJ (41:03.394)
Hahaha
Will Adams (41:27.515)
first with Vipassana meditation and then Zen, and I've been working with a Zen teacher for 24 years. But in the course of doing that meditation, those, doing that Buddhist practice, and it's not only meditative practice, but it's, you know, bringing meditative sensibilities into your everyday life. It's not a matter of having special experiences on a cushion. It's a matter of living with awareness and compassion, love, justice. So in the, in the course of doing that,
I rediscovered my root spiritual tradition freshly. And I started reading the Christian mystics. And I thought, oh my, they never showed me this stuff in Sunday school. That's incredible. Is this my root tradition? Wow. And I was just astonished and inspired and delighted. And.
PJ (42:14.215)
No.
Will Adams (42:26.813)
Um, and so.
Will Adams (42:33.543)
each tradition has its own way of articulating and fostering a life that's fully alive, that's engaged, that's living well, that's loving well. And sometimes the Christian tradition touches me in ways that the Buddhist tradition doesn't. And I also know that
Will Adams (43:05.639)
In the United States, at least, there's way more people that have some familiarity with Christianity than Buddhism, even though Buddhism is growing and touching many people. But sometimes it depends on who I'm talking with also. It's easier and clearer for me to use Christian language. But it's not just that practical aspect. It really is.
I can see things differently by way of Christian language and Christian practice. So let me try to give an example.
Will Adams (43:50.727)
Okay.
Will Adams (43:56.415)
Well, actually, let me give an example that uses both Christian language and Buddhist language, and see, this is how it works for me. So, there's a famous Zen story where a Zen practitioner said, you know, before I practiced Zen, I just saw mountains as mountains and rivers as rivers. Right? But after my practice deepened,
then I didn't see mountains and I didn't see rivers anymore.
when I got to the heart of the matter and really clarified what I was seeing.
it was mountains and rivers.
Will Adams (44:40.395)
So, so.
Will Adams (44:46.739)
One way that I read this is, you know, we sort of see things in a habitual conventional way. There's the mountains over there, like separate objects, separate things over there, and me over here in this sort of conventional self-world separation, subject-object separation. That's a conventional way to see things, okay? Then by way of contemplative practice, those
suppose its separations start to dissolve or be seen through, seen as illusory in the first place. There's never really any severance in the first place. So you know, there's sort of like this, ah, not separate anymore. But that doesn't remove me to some sort of spiritual realm somewhere in some other place.
In the end, it grounds me to relate to mountains, rivers, trees, other people in a different way. Right. So the third is, you know, re-engaging with this world, but seeing it not as a separate from me, but as this precious, sacred, you know, manifestation of this great mystery. Right. So that's the first side. Now you ask about Christian mysticism. So.
PJ (46:06.328)
Hmm.
Will Adams (46:11.783)
St. John of the Cross, the great Spanish mystic, has a poem called The Spiritual Canticle. I think I'm remembering the right poem. He's got a lot of poems. But this is a love poem to God. And identically, it's a love poem to the natural world. And he has this...
Will Adams (46:45.824)
He does things in an interesting way. He writes a poem and then he shares it with monks and nuns and they say, well, John, this is wonderful. Can you explain it to us? And then he writes a commentary on his poem. So I could find the poem, but I'll just do it from memory. He says something like...
Will Adams (47:11.607)
The mountains, the rivers, the love-stirred breezes, these are what my beloved is to me. And beloved is his name for God, right? So mountains, rivers, love-stirring breezes, these are what my beloved is to me. In other words, you know, mountains, rivers, the breezes, these are God.
Okay, so if I put myself in St. John's shoes and kind of echoing that first Zen story, which I think is the same experience, it's just languished in a different tradition, I see, okay, I look out at the mountains, I just see mountains, separate objects over there. I do contemplate a prayer.
Christian contemplative prayer, for example.
Will Adams (48:12.999)
And through a contemplative eye, I don't see mountains separate from me. I see God.
Will Adams (48:22.197)
Wow!
Not as some abstract idea, but I'm grounded. And then the third step is, yeah, I relate to this mountain as a sacred presence, a sacred presence scene. Okay. Uh, this is completely consistent with. With the teachings of Christ, you know, um, Christ has this, um, uh, beautiful teaching in the.
the Gospel of Thomas from the so-called Gnostic Gospels, but supposedly authentic sayings of Christ. He says like, split a piece of wood, you will find me there. Lift up a stone, you will find me there. And when he says me, he's not referring to me. This actually helped me when I was reading the Gospels.
Will Adams (49:25.619)
When it says Christ said or Jesus said, I think it's important to remember that it's not referring just to him as a skin-bodied historical person, Jesus of Nazareth, but also it's referring to God, right? So when Christ says, cleave a piece of wood, you'll find me there. Split.
Lift up a stone, you will find me there. He's saying, cleave a piece of wood, you'll find God there. Lift up a stone, you'll find God there, because the kingdom of heaven is among us, within us, everywhere.
And so if I look at a mountain and I see the presencing of God, I'm surely not going to enact mountain range annihilation coal mining on that mountain.
wiping out the whole mountain because I want to make money getting that coal underneath. I'm going to relate to that mountain in a very different way.
PJ (50:38.866)
I think if you allow me, because my next question is, I want to be respectful of your time. Can you articulate that final chapter about love is our nature, love is our calling, love is our path and love is our fruition? And that seems like the natural outflowing of even what you're speaking about.
Will Adams (51:05.307)
Yes, yeah, I think that's really the crucial, the crucial aspect.
Will Adams (51:18.063)
See, these are...
Will Adams (51:22.135)
These are just my best linguistic gestures to put something out there that touches people that's really ineffable, I think. But those things that are unsayable really call to be said in the right context with the right person. That's what I tried to do with this book.
Will Adams (51:54.615)
Let me try to do it as concisely as I can. So love is our nature, our calling, our path and our fruition.
Will Adams (52:14.491)
Love is one of the classic names for that great unnameable. Love is one of the classic names for God.
Will Adams (52:26.527)
And according to the Christian tradition, God is our deepest nature. You know, Christ says, I and God are one. And then he says, praise, you know, may they all be one as. As I am with you. So Christ is saying, look, you know, that union, that deep identity with God.
It's not limited to me. I realized it. I woke up to it. I see it. But it's not limited to me. This is our human birthright. May they all be one.
Will Adams (53:11.919)
Christ says, I am the vine and you are the branches. When he says I, he means God. God is the vine and we are the branches.
Will Adams (53:25.227)
So what's the relationship between a branch and the vine? A branch is how the vine is showing up over here. And this other branch is the vine showing up differently over here. There's no separation. We are...
Will Adams (53:49.739)
you know, a form of that great, let's say, vine, okay? We are form of God. And if God is love, our deepest nature is love.
Will Adams (54:07.056)
Always.
even if we don't recognize it. Another way to say it in Christian terms, you know, God is loving us into being right here and now.
Will Adams (54:22.735)
And, you know, we haven't backed up and said this, PJ, but you've read the book. But when I say God, I'm certainly not talking about some man, you know, up in the clouds with a beard that's, you know, giving us rewards and punishment, catching us when we're naughty and nice. That's like Santa Claus, right? That's not what I mean by God. You know, I don't really know what I mean, but I'm trying to gesture towards some great
all encompassing all permeating mystery. So our deepest nature is love.
Um.
but not love in an abstract way.
We're called to embody love, actualize love, in the nitty-gritty circumstances of our daily lives.
Will Adams (55:25.915)
What's the greatest commandment of all, Christ says, to love that God is one?
And you know, God is one, we're not separate from God. There's only one without a second as the Hindu tradition says, one without a second. God is one. And then we love and love our neighbor, love God with all your heart and mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Okay. So we are love, but we're called to actualize that love in relation with our neighbors.
And those neighbors aren't just two-legged ones. The whole rest of this sacred earth community. So we're called to do that. Well, how do we do that? Well, we follow the path of doing our best to be loving or to be love itself day by day by day.
Will Adams (56:30.963)
And when we do that...
Will Adams (56:35.031)
For the moment, that's the fruit. That's the fruition. That's what...
I think that's really what we're here for.
that that's what we're called to do. We have to do it even, you know, that we're confused and frightened and fallible. You know, we offer it the best we can. And sometimes there's that fruit.
And all of these are inseparable, I think.
PJ (57:10.822)
Well, if you can't, ending on like work better at loving each other, I don't think you can, I don't think anyone can disagree with that. And I don't think we can, I can think of a better way to end it. If you could give us one way that you would encourage people to love each other, whether they're two legged neighbors or four legged neighbors or crawling neighbors.
What's one way that you would encourage people to love each other this week after listening to this episode?
Will Adams (57:50.103)
Yeah.
Will Adams (57:56.659)
Yeah, my invitation would be the invitation I give myself every day. It's just to show up as present, open and awake as I can in my encounters. Feeling grateful for this life that we're given freely, you know, by no accomplishment of our own. You know, we just celebrated Thanksgiving, but, you know, every day can be a day of Thanksgiving.
and
Will Adams (58:30.159)
when we're awake, it's very clear that we're not separate from each other. So I would say just, you know, like step, since we're talking about love, not just for other humans, which is crucially important, of course, but love and engaged love, not just abstract love, but engaged, practical love for the rest of nature, you know.
Step outside and let yourself be called by some aspect of the natural world.
Let yourself appreciate that. Be in wonder, be in awe. Notice, notice what's speaking to you. And usually when we do this, some sense of appreciation or gratitude wells up and that gratitude can pour out and spill over, you know, as care and love.
Maybe in the moment, maybe later in the day. You know, there's no big secret here. It's just an ongoing, the whole world is our zindo. The whole world is our meditation hall. We bring our contemplative life into our everyday engagements. And when we're tuned in, we naturally respond with care. I don't think we have to force ourselves to do it. I think it's just...
Just opening again and again, letting go of our fears and habits and defenses and, you know, busyness.
Will Adams (01:00:16.211)
I think really pausing. I mean, if I could say anything, like just pause. Pause, look deeply, see deeply.
When we do that, love flows naturally.
PJ (01:00:32.843)
Dr. Adams, Will, thank you so much. Really appreciate your time today.
Will Adams (01:00:41.007)
It's a privilege. I'm grateful for the kinds of invitations, for the kinds of questions you pose, for the points you highlighted. Each of those, PJ, we could have paused and gone for a long, long time. There's a lot of things that you shared that I'll keep pondering. I hope this touches people in some way, and I'm glad you gave us the opportunity. You've touched me, I have to say.