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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00.383)
I was listening to a podcast last night. I'm trying to remember where they were talking about like recording something and they're like all the work that goes into it or something. But they're like, but it's good content. what a world we live in now, too, where we're and they were laughing about it. Just good content. So here I am saying this is good content. We got to hit record. And because I was sharing about my little headband, so anyone who's watching on YouTube, if not, here's incentive to go check out our YouTube. This little headband, it's pink. It has a little top knot.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:01.359)
Everything is content.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:30.019)
And then there's like little fists and different shades and tones. And it is from a designer called Terrence Williams, who also makes and is known for, you follow him on social media, he makes these most beautiful dusters with like gorgeous fabrics. I highly recommend going to follow him. He also shares a story of being shot like a year ago when he was out running on a trail. Like he was a victim of like just a random shooting, but he does all of this amazing.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:33.198)
Mmm, okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:53.158)
my gosh.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:59.767)
stuff. He's just he's awesome. So anyway, so I'll find him and link him in the show notes because I want to give him a shout out. And I'm here on the couch trying something a little new. So if you're watching on YouTube, you'll see super cash today on the cow. And we're also speaking of trying things new, we're to try a new little format adjustment, which we may do periodically, time to time. We may eventually just do it all the time. We're just going to see. So if you're listening and like this format.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:13.454)
Super cash.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:29.679)
Tell us if you don't just don't say anything. So if we hear nothing, we're going to assume you don't like it. But tell us because we'd love to hear back. Because we were inspired by our friends from, yeah, Nins and Bucks, yes, who were just on. So make sure you go watch that amazing episode. And I was telling Taina when I was watching their listening, watching, I was watching because I was on YouTube, their show, I was jealous of their format. Like they have a clear structure of like we each show up.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:30.413)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:40.802)
BRB. BRB crying.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:59.845)
We each write something that made us cry or about something that, you know, kind of makes us cry. And then we talk about it. We kind of just surprised each other with it and then have a conversation about it. It's like, it's like a really clear sort of to act structure or something. And I thought, well, maybe we could do something similar just to give our show a little more structure, at least try it. And so given that we're called messy liberation, we thought let's each bring a messy situation and just sort of
Taina Brown she/hers (02:14.636)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:19.479)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:26.504)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:28.741)
talk through the messy situation with each other and then interact on that and see how that goes just to give it a little, I don't know, a little structure. We'll see how it goes. So, no, no, I can't even want to, but I feel like I've been talking already so much. I want you to go. If you're willing.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:37.217)
Yeah. You want to go first?
you
Taina Brown she/hers (02:45.165)
Okay, no, I'm willing and able. So my messy situation, and I'll just preface this by saying sometimes my messiness will be fun stuff, sometimes it won't be. This time it's not something fun. So yesterday, so Becky and I meet every Tuesday to do like go over admin stuff for the podcast and for the coaches circle.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:59.407)
Same.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:10.714)
Biz.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:14.893)
community that we have. I started calling you my business partner, by the way. I was like, oh, that's what we are. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:21.507)
Well, you should. are business partners. say business bestie too, but also business partner because yeah, there's actual like there's money that flows between us. Well, that is like, we don't have like, and maybe we should, but I I hope there's levels of trust there. don't have like business contracts and whatnot, but we're business partners. Who knows? Yeah. I feel like it's, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:29.801)
Yes. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:36.062)
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe one day we'll get there, but I think we're fine right now. Yeah. Anyway, so we have our standing meeting on Tuesday and all of a sudden I hear outside my house stop running, I don't want to shoot you. And no, on a Tuesday during lunch.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:55.981)
Not words you want to hear.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:01.558)
So was just like, what the fuck? And then like almost immediately I was upstairs in the office. That's where I record. That's where I usually work. And my wife works downstairs at the kitchen table. And then almost immediately my wife texted me. She was like, some guy just ran through our backyard, just like fence.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:18.265)
Not even that, I heard her say like, are you seeing this? Yeah. And then you were like, yeah. And I'm like, I'm sitting here observing going, I was like, are your doors locked? Are your windows locked? I'm like, let me, can I just quickly say, I have long had, since the COVID days of like everybody moving to Zoom. And I mean, I used to use Zoom before that, but I didn't think about it as much because it was a little less common, I guess.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:22.381)
that's right. She yelled it out. She yelled it out from downstairs. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:33.97)
Are your windows closed? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:47.247)
But I just started to have these thoughts of like, everyone is now sitting at home on Zoom. And I am like, how many times am I on a call with somebody? And it's just like you are right now. There's a door behind them. It's shut. They're home, presumably alone. And I have had, because you know, I have a lot of anxiety, I have this constant fear of always been like, what happens if I am on a call with somebody and I see that door open and there's like a mass killer?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:02.262)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:07.347)
And they get, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:11.821)
Who do I call, especially if I don't know you well? Like I have coffee chats with people. I'm like, I don't even know where you are in the world. Like to me, it feels like the start of an amazing, scary movie. But anyway, was having the moment of like, holy shit, my fear is coming real.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:20.691)
Yeah. Well, there is a horror movie. Yeah, there is a horror, not a horror movie. I think it's a thriller movie that came out a few years ago that was like, has that premise where someone like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:33.413)
Oh really? I mean, you know what it is because this has been like something I've been talking about for five years and just this... Anyway, yesterday I had a flash of like, oh my god, no, please, not my fear coming true where I would be on this call with Taina and someone's gonna be like coming into our house with a gun, no.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:46.666)
We should probably, I should probably give you like emergency contact info just in case because we spent so much time.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:51.693)
At least I know where you, I actually have your address too, so like, would be, although I'd have to look for it, but I have it somewhere, so I'd be like, at least I could call if I needed to. Yeah. Anyway.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:54.505)
generally, yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, it turns out, actually, we don't know what happened or what caused the chase. But there was a, looked like a young man. Eventually, once I looked out the window, because I can see into my neighbor's yards from the window in my office, he ended up like two doors down.
in a neighbor's backyard and the cops were chasing him. he either, know, hmm. It started out just like two cops and then like a couple of minutes after that, like five more police officers showed up and he was obviously, he was, you know, engaged in some kind of supposedly illegal activity, but we don't know because cops are fucking liars.
Becky Mollenkamp (06:34.927)
Quite a few cops, right? Quite a few cops, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (06:54.703)
Well, this is where I think an interesting, messy conversation can come up, but go ahead.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:57.915)
Yeah, yeah, and so, but then like, we're just like, okay, it's over there, like it's over, but then go back to the meeting and like 10 minutes later, my wife is like, there's like five cops in our backyard, like looking for something, like what do we do? And I asked my girls like, should we go out there? what, like, cause the part of me is like, get off my fucking property. Like you didn't even.
permission to search my backyard. But I also just don't want to talk to police officers. Like I just don't. And so and you were like just like don't talk to them if you don't have to. And I was like actually that's that's what we're gonna do. So it's just like let's just ignore that unless they come to the door. Just like don't talk to them.
Also, I don't wanna be, you mentioned this, like you don't wanna be seen talking to cops. Like you don't wanna look like the person that's like snitching for lack of a better word. Right, right. And it's not because like I'm necessarily like afraid of my neighbors or anything like that, but like.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:00.823)
late snitches get stitches as they say.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:12.883)
Cups just suck. Like, they're just the worst.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:14.661)
Well, that's I think, yes, it's just such an interesting part. Like it's that reality of, yeah, it's not because snitches get stitches stuff. It's not because you're tolling, ratting someone out. It's like speaking to the enemy.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:30.534)
Yeah, yeah, like I don't want to be seen as a person who's like complicit in the policing of my neighborhood.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:39.971)
Right. But this is the interesting stuff that to me, like with this story, and this is a case where I knew about this one in advance. Sometimes we don't like, you don't know what I'm going to talk about. But do you think it's interesting to think about policing in theory versus in reality? Right. So we see cops in our yard and it's just interesting how immediately and because my thought is the same thing of like, this guy must have done something bad.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:58.195)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:09.949)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:09.987)
Right. And I had to catch myself yesterday. was even like, well, shit, maybe you should have invited the guy and give him shelter. Right. Because, but it's interesting how we are so conditioned that I feel like our initial reaction is you're being chased by police. I should be scared of you. Right. You probably did something wrong. And in truth, but then, but then also like in theory and our thoughts around policing, all cops are bastards of like, I should actually be afraid of the police, but it's just so interesting how we're so conditioned that.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:23.305)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:36.877)
I feel like often, and I don't know if you have the same responses, so it might be different, but as a white person anyway, I've been very socialized and I find myself struggling with my own son to change the socialization and this conditioning of don't trust cops. Because we are taught, white children are taught from the youngest of ages, like if you get lost, and I used to tell my son this too, because I do, right? And I would also say like find a grandma, find an old lady, because that's, think, that you're.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:40.348)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:46.472)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:57.768)
Find a police officer.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:05.219)
honestly, probably the best solution is can you find an old lady? Those are usually going to be the people who are going be most caring, safest folks, right? But we teach people, find a police officer, trust people in uniform. And so it's hard to unlearn that because it is so conditioned from the young age. And yesterday was just really an interesting experience for me being on this other side here, witnessing what you were going through of like catching myself in real time. And I noticed myself catching in myself in real time of like, wait a minute.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:20.68)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:33.763)
My instinct is, uh-oh, go lock your doors because this guy might have a gun and that can be true, right? And can I also hold space for, and I would catch myself saying, the police could end up shooting through your house because they're so fucking reckless. And I did find myself catching myself on those things, but it was interesting to notice how I could feel my instinct, my natural instinct, conditioned instinct is, uh-oh.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:40.711)
And.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:47.664)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:01.977)
watch out for the guy who's being chased by cops and hey, the cops are probably doing the right thing. And having to check myself to say, I don't know any of that to be true. I don't know if you are having similar responses or if you're conditioning because I know for black children, conditioning is often very different than what we are conditioned around, trusting cops and stuff. So I'm curious what your response was like.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:06.919)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:10.92)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:17.895)
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the scarier part for me was there's a random man running through our backyard. Like that was the, not the scarier part, but that was like the most jarring part of it.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:30.862)
man
Becky Mollenkamp (11:35.109)
So because of our very right fear of men as women, that what you're saying? Man in war, strange man, is the point? Yeah, I'll get that to you.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:41.672)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because like our, our, like our neighborhood where our house is positioned, it, we're like two doors down from, on the other side of the house, we're two doors down from a dead end. And then there's like an old, like, it used to be like a community pool behind, like directly behind us. And then they tore it down. So it's just like an open field now. And there's a school, there's a few schools not too far away.
And so like kids are always back there, like hanging out. And then sometimes like when we take the dog out for like her last little like, go do your business before we go to bed at night. Like sometimes we can see people and hear people back there just like hanging out and being a little bit reckless. Also people tend to dump trash, like bulky trash back there despite.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:34.885)
I'm glad you said trash, because when you said people tend to I immediately picked your pooping, just so you know.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:39.662)
No, I mean, I'm sure that happens too. And so it's just kind of, it has just kind of become this like throwaway space. And then directly in front of our home is like a sports field where like there's on the weekends, there's like intramural soccer, there's like little league, softball, peewee football that happens all throughout the year. And so it's just, it's a quiet neighborhood.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:42.839)
You would smell it.
Hmm, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (12:54.127)
kids.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:08.337)
but it's also a very public, it feels like a very public space and our fencing is just like chain length, that scene and it's low, it's not tall. Yeah, he was able to jump over it, yeah. And so you can literally see into, I can look six doors down into my neighbor's yard. And that's just the nature of the architecture here.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:15.653)
Yeah, because he was able to jump over it. remember.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:24.933)
Yeah. I have a similar sort of, yeah, I can look, maybe not six, but I can see at least three in the direction. Most of us have low chain link as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:31.29)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I have never really felt safe around police. Like outside of like when I was like really young, you know, you have like your resource officer like in school and things like that. But as an adult, I've never really felt safe around cops. And I like, it's funny because I remember when we lived in LA.
I had to take the bus to work and so I'm waiting at the bus station and we were in the part, we lived in the part of LA that's Koreatown. And there were like three like police officers there with like this huge German shepherd with their police dog just like hanging around the bus station. And this like Korean news channel was like going around interviewing people about it for some reason. I don't know. I don't know what was going on, but they were like, Hey, can we ask you questions about
the cops here and I was like, yeah, sure. And they're like, oh, is this, you know, do you come to this bus stop often? Is this the first time you've seen the cops here? And I was like, yeah, I come here maybe once or twice a week. I was like, this is the first time I've seen them. And they're like, does it help you feel safe? And I was like, no, I actually feel less safe because one, they're not talking to anyone. It's unclear why they're there. They're just like loitering basically with their huge ass German shepherd.
just like looking menacing and so there's this sense of like, well, what's going on? Should I be concerned? But nobody's communicating anything. And I think that's part of like what pissed me off yesterday too also that was like, they didn't even bother to like knock on our door and say, hey, this just happened. We're gonna be doing a search, you know, through, you know, this area to look for something. Obviously they were looking for something. And so just that.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:11.354)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:27.514)
that sense of just like entitlement to just like public spaces and to people's privacy. It's the least icky thing about them about policing, but it's still an icky thing. And yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:41.445)
Well, it's all part of the problem of the way they show up and going back to this because, you know, I don't think enough people understand the history of policing in America. really don't. White people. I don't think enough white folks or I would even say non-black folks, right? Like, I don't think there's enough folks who understand the history of policing and it's direct ties to slavery, right? It was about slavery patrols. It was about bringing back enslaved people who would escape.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:57.167)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:03.269)
To slavery, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:10.917)
and that's what we're policing began, what its roots are in our country. And we can't separate that from how it exists today. You just can't. and so it's very much shows up because it is this like belief that people are property and that everything they're doing is in service of some ownership sort of a structure. Right? So it's like this belief that like, of course I have access to your yard.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:34.116)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (16:38.405)
Right? Because you are beneath me. am servicing, even though in true how it should function today is that they should be servants. They're civil servants, right? They're supposed to be public servants. They're supposed to be in service of the public, as in we are your bosses. It's not how it looks in practicality today. And when people talk about abolish the police, people get so confused about what that means because it doesn't mean that we want to get rid of
Taina Brown she/hers (16:40.791)
yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:54.511)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (16:57.976)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:06.571)
justice, what to get rid of, protection and safety. But it's what does it look like? We need to abolish it as it exists, the systems that were created, because it is so rooted in all of this, because it's rooted in slavery, because it shows up still, and those same hierarchical structures that are so horrendous and treating people like property. And it's saying that whole system needs to be abolished and completely rethought. Because what you just talked about is what made me think of all this, which is the community element, right? The
Taina Brown she/hers (17:07.557)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:23.577)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (17:34.851)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:36.361)
When we talk about getting rid of police and replacing it with something different, it looks like policing, but it's community policing. It's a system that puts the people right, accountability, putting people first, communication, being involved with the citizenry, having these are people who should be walking the streets and knowing the people inside the community. That's what at one time, actually, policing did look like that in some areas, like in more urban centers, like
Taina Brown she/hers (17:44.056)
Yeah, of accountability, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:04.625)
like New York City, there may be some degree of that where you actually have street cops who are on the street who get to know the community. Speaking of, you've never watched it, even though it's about your city, The Wire in Baltimore. If you go and watch The Wire, that's an interesting part of the discussion. The reason I love The Wire is because the first season especially focuses on, each sort of season focuses on one system that's broken, and the first one is policing. It also talks about media.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:11.768)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:29.123)
Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (18:33.839)
talks about government. each season kind of has a different piece of it. I really think at some point we should watch it and have conversations.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:37.15)
Okay.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:41.828)
I think whenever we do move from Baltimore, we'll probably watch it. I don't think we can watch it right now.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:48.483)
Then we'll do it. Okay. You can't do it now. Well, when you move from Baltimore, maybe we could do it, we'll watch it at the same time and have discussions about it. Cause it is really good. It talks about policing and all of the problems with policing. And part of that is the police aren't in the community. don't know the community. Often they don't live in the community, especially in urban centers where these police officers often live out in the suburbs. They're often white. Then they're coming into urban centers.
Taina Brown she/hers (18:55.598)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:03.21)
No, they, yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:15.523)
that may have a larger minority population or non-white population. And they're bringing all these prejudices that they have into this space because they don't live and work and talk and exist amongst the people that they're then policing. So they're bringing this like that slave slavery mentality anyway. So please, they should be knocking on your doors and all they should be knocking on your doors. They should know you, right? They should be like.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:26.884)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:33.638)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:37.1)
Yeah, of just punishment. Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (19:43.055)
Hey, Tyena, just here, you know, we want to let you know as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (19:45.035)
Yeah, just so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we actually had a cop knock on our door last year or earlier this year, like one night, late one night, we heard like gunshots like a few doors down. And occasionally we hear gunshots. They're never really close by. This was the only time that it's been like that close. And then we like heard some like a car speed off and we checked our ring camera.
you know, just to make sure there was like no, nothing that was like no lingering activity. The cops showed up like a few minutes later. And then like the next day a sheriff showed up or I don't know what the fuck he was, but he showed up at our door. He was like, we were just wondering if you had any like footage from your ring camera. We were like, no, we don't have anything, sorry.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:35.429)
That's what I said yesterday. Didn't see anything, didn't hear anything, don't know anything. I'm not here to help you. Not as it exists today. Again, imagine a world though, where policing look like your neighbors, people you know who live in your community, who you go to church with, who you go and see at the grocery store out in their plain clothes, whose kids are on your hockey team or your baseball team or whatever, right? Like actual members of your community who know you and who know other people.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:37.761)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:02.179)
Yeah, who care about the community? Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:04.677)
Correct, so that if someone's having a mental health crisis, they already know well enough to say, oh, that's Johnny's kid. I know he has autism. I spoke to Johnny the other week and he was telling me that his kid wasn't taking his meds as well as he should be. That's a very different way of saying it. Let me call Johnny, because I know Johnny. Let me call Johnny. Let me call in this mental health resource officer because I know Johnny has autism. It looks so different.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:12.96)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:16.792)
Yeah.
Yeah, let me go help him instead of shoot him.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:32.151)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:32.515)
than what it currently is. And in its current form, it is useless and it can't be fixed without breaking it completely and reimagining it from the ground up. So when people talk about abolish the police, the right wants to hang on to that to be like, that means they never want police. That's not what.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:38.978)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (21:47.98)
That's not true. want different. We want a different. We want a system that is not predicated on punishment because punishment is not the answer to every situation. Care is the situation. Like abolish the police is a harm reductionist perspective on how to adequately police community and ensure that communities are safe. And so...
Becky Mollenkamp (21:51.045)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (21:57.87)
Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (22:02.159)
care. Our system is about care.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:08.484)
Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:15.62)
us.
Taina Brown she/hers (22:15.775)
I'm not going to turn someone in to the state or to the county or to the city knowing how corrupt and how much more likely it is for a young black man to be incarcerated, to be charged, to be assaulted by police officers with like unnecessary force or whatever and have
Becky Mollenkamp (22:27.205)
cumulative.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:39.055)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:44.409)
Did you notice them?
Taina Brown she/hers (22:45.164)
have his life fucking ruined because of one bad decision when that same level of punishment or harshness is not usually doled out for young white men. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:59.363)
That's of complete mistaken identity, which happens so frequently when you have outside, white, like you have white officers from outside of the area driving 30, 40 minutes, an hour into work into an area that's predominantly black and they are bringing their biases in. All black people look like this guy could be that black guy, right? I mean, we see it all the time and then you don't even know if you're helping.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:20.556)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:24.599)
solve an actual problem with this actual person. Did you notice the racial makeup? I'm curious of the person that was running in the pool.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:25.804)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:30.85)
I didn't, my wife did, because she saw, since she was in the kitchen, the kitchen window overlooks the backyard. So by the time I had eyes on him, he was wearing a hoodie. He was wearing a black hoodie, so I couldn't tell what he looked like. But she said he looked like a young black man who's maybe like late teens, early 20s. Some of the cops were black, some of them were white or appeared to be white. They could have been Latino or like white Latino or Hispanic.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:48.846)
the cops.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:59.791)
Well, why present?
Taina Brown she/hers (24:00.903)
Yeah, yeah, just a white person because race and ethnicity are two different things, but that's a conversation for another day. But yeah, so I just it was I actually met up with another coach last night that I just randomly linked in, like hooked up with on LinkedIn two days ago. And then she happened to be in Baltimore yesterday.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:06.735)
Well, it fits into this conversation too, but yeah, you're right. It's an all over line.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:22.991)
Wow, you're having that's like you had that recently too with the person I interviewed too. Who knew?
Taina Brown she/hers (24:26.977)
Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm leaving my house. I guess I'm not a hermit anymore, at least for the time being. We'll see. We'll see how long it lasts. yeah, probably. But we ended up talking about policing and stuff because she lives in Minneapolis. I will say this until I'm blue in the face, cops do not prevent crime. They report crime and oftentimes commit crimes. They're allowed to lie to try to get
Becky Mollenkamp (24:32.281)
I wouldn't know what that's like.
It's gonna be winter soon, so probably not long.
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:55.237)
I was gonna say, they create crime, they are crime, yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:56.478)
people to try to get people to like confess to things like they are allowed to like do unethical things and you cannot have someone who is supposed to uphold this moral and ethical and legal code that doesn't apply to them in the same ways. Like that's that's a difference in power. That's a difference in how they
Becky Mollenkamp (25:03.845)
so many of the tactics that they are like.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:23.281)
guidelines and rules and things like how people are supposed to behave. And so when you give people that much power, like, of course they're going to abuse it. Of course it's going to go unchecked.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:35.149)
Absolutely, and we see what's going on with ICE like when you're talking about policing even though Law Right exactly. They're not even pleased so that's why I guess law enforcement is what they anyway It's just when you see some of the videos of what ICE officers or officers ICE whatever they are are doing like it's just it It is what?
Taina Brown she/hers (25:42.59)
Ice are in cups.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:54.698)
They're like destroying property.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:58.201)
They're destroying human lives, but even off duty, like I saw an ICE guy who got pulled over for drunk driving with his kids in the back of the car. And he the whole time was careening, demanding to speak to the guy's manager. The guy who pulled him over was not white and got so, like it was just wild the way he, basically these, they're recruiting everyday folks. They're not even police officers. They're not even trained in these things. They're recruiting them, giving them $50,000 bonuses.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:59.839)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:24.355)
And then basically saying, you can do whatever you want, or at least that's what they are in. They are internalizing. Absolutely. And I really feel like when we think about the origins of policing, ICE is what it is. Right. And it is, it is that again, where it is like, you are not, I don't even see you as human, right. Especially was we're talking about the Brown folks that they're rounding up. don't see you as human. think of you as.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:29.716)
They're like, they act like bounty hunters.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:49.952)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:53.385)
animal as less than and I shall treat you that way and I have free reign to do whatever I wish to your person, to your body, to your surroundings, to anyone who gets in my way and that is and people look at this right now and are so disgusted and appalled and again white people primarily are feeling so shocked by this. This is what policing has always been. This is what policing started. So when you see this and you're feeling shocked
Taina Brown she/hers (27:01.216)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:16.86)
Always been, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:21.271)
know that that is actually what policing is and has been. This is the system it was built on and this is just now on full display for people. It is what it looks like when it's left unchecked. And so this is why it has to go away and be completely rethought. All right, should I go to mine? We talked a lot about police. It was very good. I'm so glad we talked about police. So here's this. This is a threads interaction that I've been having today. In fact, this is super fresh where someone said all land.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:31.721)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:35.443)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:47.292)
Mmm
Becky Mollenkamp (27:50.147)
All cops are bastards. This is perfect. It's a great transition. On the same tilt as all cops are bastards, all billionaires are bastards. All it was all landlords are bastards. All landlords are unethical. And I am sitting with this and still not sure where I fall on it. Now I will come like full transparency. I'm a landlord. We own a home and an area of town where we couldn't sell it without losing a lot of money. We were very upside down. So our best option was to rent it because we had a young baby. It was a two.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:05.311)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:19.461)
two room, two bedroom, three room basically house. It just, well, there's no way it was gonna work for us. We gunshots all the time and they weren't that far and I had a young baby. So we wanted to move. We moved to a more diverse area of town. I love where we're at. You know, I've talked a lot about my kid's exposure to diversity and his school and everything else. I'm so thrilled with where we are. It was the right choice for our family. We actually left an area that was where we were the minority. That's okay. Like it was fine for a long time when it was just my husband and I actually really had no problems.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:24.531)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:47.885)
Once I got a baby in the situation, like, I don't like schools that are super segregated. Whether that means my child is the only one looks like him in his school or he's at a school where there's the, you know, the black student is the only one. I really wanted my student, my child to be in a school that was very diverse. So he's in that now. So we moved from a place that was very segregated to a place that's not. So I feel really good about all of that. Unfortunately, we had to, we had a house behind there that we couldn't sell. We would lose money.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:55.527)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:02.11)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:06.505)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:17.635)
What do we do in that situation? Maybe we should just lose the money. I don't know. Sell it for nothing. We're not rich. We can't afford that. So we wanted to rent it out. We rent it out at market value. it's not a lot of money. The area doesn't cost. There's not a lot of money to be had there. We make enough to cover our rent, plus a little extra, which goes into a pot, because very soon the house is going to need a new air conditioner and a new furnace. Especially a lot of money.
Taina Brown she/hers (29:38.173)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (29:44.723)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:46.661)
We don't have enough money yet to do that, but that's like the little extra we get every month, which is like a hundred bucks or something over what we actually pay in our mortgage, goes into a pot. We're not living high on the hall. got it. It's going to the pot so that we can eventually replace the furnace for our tenant. Our tenant has been in that house now for almost 10 years. Fantastic tenant. She doesn't want to buy the house. She's an older lady. She doesn't want the responsibility. We take care of all the maintenance. She doesn't have to. All she to do is basically mow the lawn.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:05.194)
wow.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:09.224)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:12.638)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:15.499)
And like everything else, if anything breaks, we have a company that we pay a percentage of our money, of our rent that we receive to do all of the maintenance, to do all the stuff. She's happy. She stays for 10 years. She doesn't want to own a house. She's an older lady. She's like, I'm just, I don't want to deal with it. We're happy because this house we would have had to sell upside down. I don't think she feels, you know, we don't know her very personally because we have this middleman through a company.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:16.872)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:24.968)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:41.657)
But you know, every year we're sending a lease, we go by and check on the house. She takes care of it. Everything's good. Am I a bastard? I don't know. Am I unethical? I don't know. And I'm open to hearing the arguments this person on threads was saying, because I was like, OK, wait a minute. I've had times in my life, because she was there. My argument was housing should be so affordable that everyone can buy a house. Yes and. I want to yes and that to say, not everyone wants to buy a house.
Taina Brown she/hers (30:46.13)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:07.602)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:07.941)
I truly believe that and I don't think it's only because it's not affordable. I think there are many people like this elderly tenant, like myself when I was in college and me at different points in my life after a divorce, where I'm like, I don't want to deal with owning a house. I don't want to deal with maintenance, but also sometimes I don't want to live in an apartment. For a lot of reasons, I don't want to listen to my neighbors all the time. I don't want to have to smell their food in the hallways. Like I have a dog, I'd like him to have a fenced in yard. So like I just, I'm still struggling to wrap my head around this.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:20.315)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:24.264)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:35.997)
They were saying it's unethical to make money off of something that should be a human right. So then I was like, I get that to a degree. Like I hear that. Like I do think housing should be human right. In the same way I think health care should be a human right and food should be a human right. No one should starve. No one should not be able to have a home, a roof over their head to keep them safe. No one should have to like die of cancer simply because they can't afford care. So all of those things I'm there for. But does that mean people who own grocery stores are bastards?
Taina Brown she/hers (31:49.33)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:54.941)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:59.591)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:04.953)
Does that mean people who own restaurants are unethical ambassadors? Where do we draw that line? My argument, because I'm like, so then does everyone just get free housing? Because now we're getting to communism where, and not to say that communism is inherently bad, but what it often looks like is here's your box, here's your box, every person in the exact same space, there's no longer choice, everything is assigned by the government, you don't get to decide, right? It removes the all agency.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:20.37)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (32:24.985)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:33.815)
Is that a better option? Or in my opinion, what it looks like is SNAP benefits, which by the way are about to go away and aren't enough, but what it should look like is everyone has their minimum needs met. So everyone has a place to live. Government helps to subsidize whatever it takes for you to make sure you at least have your minimum needs met where each person in your family has a room. I think that's.
You have a space to be able to cook. You can use the restroom. You know what I mean? Like everyone has at least that. And then those who have more pay more to make sure that everyone has their minimum needs met. But then if you have a little extra left and you get a slightly better house or you want to go to one nice meal or whatever, I think all of that is still ethical and okay. It's not wealth hoarding like billionaires. It's saying, I am contributing to make sure that everyone has their minimum needs met, but also...
Taina Brown she/hers (33:03.132)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:16.572)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:28.421)
Maybe I employ 600 people and I pay them all very fair wages. But you know, because of that and all the risk I put in, make some more. But then I was like, listen, I'm also happy to hear maybe this is all my condition capitalism and I can't wrap my brain around this yet. So I've now presented all of my case. I'm very interested to hear because I was like having this argument. I was like, I wonder what Taina would have to say. I wonder what faith would have like some of the people in my life that are more involved than I am on some of these issues. I'm really curious where you fall on are all landlords.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:37.767)
Vroom vroom.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:44.84)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (33:58.477)
unethical bastards and knowing that I'm totally open that maybe I am
Taina Brown she/hers (34:00.815)
yeah. yeah. i...
get where...
I get why someone would say that. think for me, I wouldn't say all landlords are bastard. I would say all developers are bastards. I think when it comes to landlording and housing, well, one, it's a different kind of system than policing. Policing is state-sanctioned. That's government.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:11.109)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:38.426)
And so we, if you're listening or watching, more than likely you already have some understanding that there are things wrong with our government, the way our government runs, right? On the big scale and at the local scale as well. Yes, yes, yes, yes. A rebrand, a rework, a rebrand, whatever the fuck you want to call it.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:53.283)
Right?
Becky Mollenkamp (34:57.487)
from the founding until today and, and yes, from top down. Yeah.
Top down, front to back.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:07.894)
Needs to happen. Yeah. And so I think with things like policing, it's really clear that it's a systemic issue that creates a interpersonal issue. I think when it comes to landlording, there's the systemic side to it, but then there's also, there's more nuance, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
there's way more gray area when it comes to housing and landlording because you have developers, businesses, right? Who are coming in and like just taking over, driving, you know, rental prices up, you know, pushing people out.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:54.222)
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:01.273)
Then you have, there's just so many layers to it. Then you have people who are like flippers, right? Who are gentrifying, you have gentrifiers, right? White people who could afford to live in nicer places but don't want to. And so they move into these neighborhoods, drive up the property value that pushes out people who have been there forever. Like, then you have people like...
Becky Mollenkamp (36:08.303)
gentrifying areas, having amazing things on board. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:26.863)
like you, right? Like we've talked about it. Like, okay, well we move, do we sell our house or do we rent it out? Right? And it's not that we're trying to like ask a bug, right? Exactly. Like we're not trying to get rich over renting our house. We're just trying to find the easiest, most like efficient solution for dealing with this property once we decide to move.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:37.797)
It's not a cash grab.
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:54.518)
in a way that isn't going to cost us any money and overburden us with responsibilities. And so whether those responsibilities are financial or otherwise. And so I think there's a lot more complexity there that has to be like teased out. I don't think I would say all landlords are bastards. I would say there's something wrong with the way housing is treated.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:17.071)
Here's one.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:24.218)
And there definitely needs to be, I don't know if more regulation is the answer, but.
people should be able to live.
Becky Mollenkamp (37:32.953)
I think having the conversation about all cops being bastards before this is helping me in this way as you're talking and me thinking this through. think, I don't know that this particular individual meant it this way because one of the pushbacks when I was like, but not everybody wants to buy or own a home. Like a lot of people would rather just rent. Like they don't want to deal with maintenance. And the answer was, then hire a handyman. I'm like, I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (37:57.654)
No, but then not everyone has the financial means to hire Andy Mann.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:02.437)
Well, but I think the point being like you should like I guess now the government's providing handymen for these government provided houses. I have no idea
Taina Brown she/hers (38:07.818)
Was there argument that the government should be providing housing for everyone?
Becky Mollenkamp (38:10.901)
Maybe, but yeah, I guess. I don't know. It was a very confusing argument to begin with. But I think part of it was like we were just maybe not speaking the same language. But what I'm starting to think is, I think maybe the sentiment that I can kind of get behind is all landlords are bastards in the same way all cops are bastards, meaning policing is a very problematic institution. And I do think that rental, the rental system, the...
the landlording system, the extractive nature that often exists inside of housing, temporary housing or whatever you want to call that, is problematic. And so in the same way that I've met individual cops who are really great people and who do care and who are trying to do things differently, that doesn't change all cops or bastards in the same way that don't tell me not all men, it's all men till it's no men, right? Like it's about masculinity as a problem, policing as a problem. And in that way I can get behind all landlords or bastards if we're meaning like,
Taina Brown she/hers (38:58.287)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:06.873)
This is a system, maybe not government sanctioned, although there is a degree of that through HUD and other parts of Section 8 and government assisted kinds of housing. the government does get involved in housing. The system is a problem. I agree. Housing and who has access and who doesn't, and obviously a huge problem of houselessness. Those are problems. And so in that way, I can get it. I don't think that's what this individual meant.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:13.635)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:22.202)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:35.164)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:35.685)
But in that way I get it because when we say that then we're saying some landlords are great landlords. I think I'm a pretty good landlord. I bet you would be a good landlord. In the same way there are some cops who are really great cops, but that doesn't change the system is a problem. So I think that's where I'm kind of landing. I don't know if that's what this person's, I don't know if they thought it out that well because then when I said, so are restaurant owners bastards when we talk about, because food should be a human right as well.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:40.865)
Mm-hmm.
Bye
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:58.89)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:02.437)
Does that mean people shouldn't profit off food? Should farmers give away their crops? Like all of this thing. And their answer is like, I've really thought that through. have to think about that, which is an honest answer. I appreciate that. But I do think it lends me to think this person is maybe just having a emotional, yeah, to rent as an issue, which I get that. So yeah, I don't know. That's kind of where I'm landing through this.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:06.541)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:11.223)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:17.631)
visceral reaction.
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:28.057)
But it did make me start to like, because I'm like, I'm here for all cops are bastards. I'm here for all billionaires are unethical and they're bastards. I'm still not sure I can quite get to all landlords are bastards, but I do get to that. As we're talking about, I guess I get this.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:44.91)
Yeah, yeah, I think the level of exploitation is different, right? With cops and billionaires, it's like super villain level exploitation, right? And when you get to landlords and housing, it's like, again, there's so much more gray area. And I think this is sometimes the mistake that people, that we make when we try to take this
Becky Mollenkamp (41:01.785)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:14.361)
principled approach and just like map it across the board.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:18.159)
This is where it's messy, Tyena.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:19.585)
Yeah, yeah, like we can't just like say, well, if one system is like bad, if one organized way of doing things is bad, then that means all organized ways of doing things are bad, right? Like there has to be room for complexity and nuance to have these conversations because part of you being a landlord is also about you making sure you get your needs met.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:39.15)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:46.917)
Well, right, because what should it be punitive then where I lose money that I don't have to lose? I don't know even honestly, we don't even know what that would look like if I don't know. But yeah, mean, right. And I think all parties would say like us, the middle man, the people who are managing the property and all that for us, they set their rate. They seem happy with their rate. We're happy with their rate. Our tenant continues to sign year over year. It's not like she's on a 10 month, every year for 10 years.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:52.589)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:13.795)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:16.981)
She's happy, she has a house that she's happy to be in, that she, know, a neighborhood that works for her. I just think all parties don't, I don't, I don't feel like, and of course it's easy for me to say as the landlord at the top, I guess of that sort of pyramid, I don't feel like anyone's feeling extracted from. That may not be true. I, you know, that's an interesting thing to sit with, but I feel like it's different. I guess it's, it makes me think like we talk about all billionaires are bastards and then you'll have people push back on like, well, what if somebody has $50 million?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:17.967)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:33.664)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:46.437)
There's 10, what's the cutoff, right? It's always this like, that's the argument because they are seeing everything very black and white. And I can say, I don't know the cutoff. I know in my mind, the cutoff is until every person has their basic needs met, again, everyone has access to food, water, health care, housing, and education. Those for me are sort of, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (42:48.315)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:02.322)
Healthcare, education, yeah. In a way that they can thrive, not just survive.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:08.045)
Until everyone has those needs, basic needs met, again, I'm not saying everyone gets a mansion, but everyone has a place that they can lay their head and feel sheltered and safe, that your kids can go to school, whatever, all those things. Until those are met, whatever amount that takes for everyone to have that, anything else is okay. But I think that there's no way that that is happening with billionaires because we can see it. There's no way when Elon Musk is closing in on a trillionaire,
Taina Brown she/hers (43:28.205)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:32.875)
Yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:37.049)
and we have people who can't afford to eat. Like, no, that's not okay. I can say that with that. Now, could I say if everyone only had 10 million, would that do it? I don't know. I don't know the math to know it. But I know it's clear as day, we don't need that. There's no need for that, right? And I think people don't like that they want everything very clear cut. Like, you're only allowed to have X amount of dollars then. And that's that argument they come back with. And I'm like, well, no. And I think it's a similar thing here where it's like having a property.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:39.298)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:47.532)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:01.893)
that you rent, as long as everyone's feeling like their needs are being met and no one's feeling like they're being taken advantage of, that's okay. But do you need to have 80,000 properties, right? Where you're driving up the rents then the people in the local community can't afford it and that's not okay. Where's the cutoff between okay and not okay? I don't know that I can tell you that. But I can tell you what's not okay and I can tell you this is. And I think that's a little messier than like...
Taina Brown she/hers (44:12.407)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:16.492)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:22.421)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:29.293)
all cops are bastards because the system itself is completely flawed. There's just no way to be an ethical cop within the current system. And the same way I say there's no way to be an ethical billionaire within this current system. Can you be an ethical millionaire of some amount? Probably. I don't know the exact amount, but yeah, probably. But there's no way to be an ethical billionaire. There's no way to be an ethical police officer in this system as it exists. Can you be an ethical landlord within the existing system? I think maybe yes. I think there's also obvious ways that you could not be. And that's it is.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:32.524)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:38.839)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:46.145)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:53.717)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think as long as there's still room to be ethical, then we can't say that like, this is like all people who participate, right, that the entire thing should be thrown out. I think when it comes to things like policing and billionaires, there's no room for ethics there because it's, they're created to like exploit, right?
Becky Mollenkamp (45:14.777)
The systems are created as such that they can't.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:20.815)
What about masculinity? I agree. think, see in my head it's the same thing. Masculinity is also just inherently not applicable as it is currently structured and made. Okay, good. Cause in my head I'm like, I still very much say all men until no men, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:24.735)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I agree. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, race was inherently created to other. Masculinity was inherently created to other. Femininity was inherently created, like any, like those gender norms were inherently created to other people. And so because of that, they're inherently oppressive and toxic.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:39.875)
And whiteness too, by the way. There's no way, I put that on myself, there's no way for me to be.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:58.662)
and harmful, not just to the people that are the other, but to the people who are centered in those experiences as well.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:06.489)
Yeah. my God, the more I realize the ways that, not again, because I'm not centering myself, but because you mentioned that, the ways that I realized my whiteness is harmful to me, like it makes me so sad for me too. Like not my, that this is obviously the lowest on the degrees of sadness, but I do feel that of like, my God, it is so sad what this does, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (46:19.722)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:26.388)
Yeah. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:31.193)
I only wanted to bring up whiteness to make it clear, like, I'm not trying to point at everyone else's everyone else's unethical. And then the system that I benefit from is because I do think landlording is different than my whiteness. My whiteness, I absolutely say, there's no way for me to be ethically white, right? Which one last messy thing and then we'll go. Makes me think of these, I'm a non-practicing white. How do you feel about that? my God, there's.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:55.732)
I haven't heard that. What the hell is that?
Becky Mollenkamp (46:58.361)
There's a black woman selling those t-shirts, so like, you know, that I don't wanna speak to, but there's a lot of white women who'll show up on like threads and places and be like, well, as a non-practicing white, I think blah, blah, because I talk a lot to white women specifically, I often on threads do what I can to try and educate white women, because that feels like the lane that I should be sticking to is like, I speak to other white women about the ways that we fall short and how they can learn. And there will be people who show up and give the like, well, I'm non-practicing white woman.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:11.466)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:18.496)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:26.378)
That's not a thing. Yeah. That's not a thing you, yeah, that's not something you can opt out of. Like.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:26.858)
guess like a non-practicing Jewish person or something, but you don't get to opt out.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:35.375)
Thank you. It's so upsetting to me. And they think they're being super progressive by saying it. And then I saw a black woman selling the shirts. So that started like, I'm like, now that's implicitly like giving these people some permission to be like, well, I guess it's okay because my black friend told me it was okay or something. And I'm just like, it's not okay. It's not okay. So if you're one of those people, stop it. Stop it.
Taina Brown she/hers (47:50.121)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, stop, yeah, stop doing that. think if you want to distance yourself, right, from the toxicity that is in whiteness, you can reject those principles. You can reject like the idea of what whiteness means in our society, but you, I don't get too opt out of being black or.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:16.837)
No, I think it is a way for white women to try to other themselves from those white women so that they basically get to excuse themselves from having to do the real work.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:22.271)
feel better about themselves. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. It's a way, yeah, it's a way for them to just feel like, I'm not a Karen. I'm different.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:35.599)
Yeah, yeah. I'm a cool mom. I'm not like the other moms. I'm a cool mom. I'm not like the other whites. I'm a cool white. No, you're still white. So like, just own that shit and keep.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:39.189)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You still benefit from being white. You still have that privilege, regardless of what the fuck you're wearing. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:54.499)
Not you can do about that. So stop trying to pretend like it's not true and sit with the fact that it is true. And then what does that mean? And I love the question you asked in our community, which is like, what have I, how have I used my privilege this week? Right. And that's what we, especially as white women, because we have immense amounts of it need to be sitting with all the time. Instead of trying to distance yourself from it, ask yourself, how am I using it? Make a difference.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:59.647)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:14.525)
Yeah, yeah, in the white spaces that you're in. to your people and do something about them. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:23.427)
Right, which is what, know, that's one small way I try to use mine is to educate other white women on threads. It's not a big thing, but you know, I mean, there's enough people sort of listening to me that that's something, right? So finding that for you. I liked this. What did you think?
Taina Brown she/hers (49:29.181)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:33.372)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I did too. I did too. I think we should do it again.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:40.357)
Okay. I mean, we have a guest coming next, in between guests and stuff. And then should we tell them, give them a little hint of our secret series thing or no? Okay, good.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:51.952)
Yeah, you wanna, you look like you're bursting at the seams to talk about it, so go for it. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:55.715)
No, no, never seen season, just excited. We're going to do a special series next year called Everything is Political. And we're going to talk about with some guests, hopefully some pretty cool experts in various areas, things that you might not think of, not just like we just said policing is political. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:09.876)
Policing, yeah, but like day-to-day things that are so like embedded and like, that's just normal. That's how it is, yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:16.269)
reading. Why is your reading political? I don't know, parenting maybe, I don't know, some different things. Garbage. Just throwing your trash away. Why is that political? So that's going to come next year too and we're very excited about that.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:25.214)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:30.448)
Yeah, so you want to subscribe and be on the lookout for that.
Becky Mollenkamp (50:35.479)
Taina with the cell, the call to action. Good job. All right, well, bye everyone. Until next time.
Taina Brown she/hers (50:37.428)
hahahaha
Taina Brown she/hers (50:43.326)
See ya!