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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;05 - 00;00;19;29
Aaron
So much NFT drama, my timeline just exploded with it.
00;00;20;04 - 00;00;22;12
Pri
Cabal. Cabal. Nation.
00;00;22;17 - 00;00;31;06
Derek
What do you guys think? Like, what's the what's the what's the net for you guys on the on the on what's going on with crypto right now on the timeline.
00;00;31;07 - 00;00;46;20
Aaron
I'm excited that people are talking about it, showing it. I love I love to people's, you know, like little, you know, daily or every day that that kind of captured some of it. I think it's great. Everybody loves a little drama.
00;00;46;23 - 00;00;50;00
Derek
Well what's the drama like? Yeah. Can we unpack the drama and then.
00;00;50;02 - 00;01;01;14
Pri
I don't even understand it. Like, where did it come from? Like, I've been seeing it, but like I will say, like I. My timeline is like an utter mess. And all I'm saying is like, cabal stuff, but I don't understand where it came from.
00;01;01;14 - 00;01;23;10
Aaron
I thought it came from the fact that somebody noted that when Kanye was looking at digital art, that that he was quickly shepherded to towards works of certain collectors, something to that effect that that's what I remember. That was the first thing that I saw about it. And I was like, oh, okay. I mean, I saw this.
00;01;23;12 - 00;01;27;17
Pri
Okay. And so that's when all this cabal convo came out.
00;01;27;24 - 00;01;43;13
Aaron
Yeah. It's like if you're representing an artist or you're working with collectors that you know, that have that work. Like it's not unreasonable to to kind of talk about the things that you're the most interested in. And then I guess that struck people the wrong way. I'm not 100% sure, though.
00;01;43;15 - 00;02;05;23
Chris
As someone who came back from the beach, you know, was trying to be an adult, I was I was having a tonic. I was trying to finish off Invisible Man, you know, sitting there in my sweatshirt, it's like 7:00 and cloudy doing my best. Come home, have some dinner, hop on the timeline. And it is just absolute lunacy from 100 different directions.
00;02;05;24 - 00;02;29;13
Chris
And I don't know, man. Like, it was just like, what in the Christ is going on here? Because yes, I saw a little bit of cabal, I saw some Tezos, whatever going on. I saw Ethereum. Let's celebrate Ethereum's 11th birthday by inscribing more pixels on the chain that like we've been doing for the last years. It was just like, oh my God, what is up with this place?
00;02;29;15 - 00;02;33;05
Aaron
Well happy birthday Ethereum. I was excited for that.
00;02;33;10 - 00;02;57;19
Derek
Let me, let me let me unpack what you just said, Chris. Like are you there's maybe a couple of different pieces of commentary laced in there. There's. Yeah, maybe kind of like whatever the spiritual attitude of how people are participating right now. But then there's also just like the comment about pixels on Ethereum for the 11th year in the row, feeling more corporate.
00;02;57;20 - 00;03;23;10
Derek
I think the comment that, I mean, the thing that came up for me was just like, you know, somebody coming in from the break room holding the cake and gathering the office around and singing Happy Birthday to whatever Brenda in sales. Is that what you're saying? Like, are you saying that there's something a little bit spiritually bankrupt about the the what what what the timeline looks like right now and how people are participating with the chain?
00;03;23;13 - 00;03;43;20
Chris
I mean, I don't know what is here. What am I saying? I'm saying, if you, like, occasionally get the benefit of stepping outside of all of this and you forget how absurd it is, and you know how much like high school it is at times. And then you you walk in and you see it on especially bad day.
00;03;43;22 - 00;04;22;00
Chris
It is just like one of those, Holy shit, what in the Christ is going on here? And look, I ain't going to be mean about, you know, it looked like that was Jack Butcher and Benji doing, you know, 11th birthday and stuff. And, you know, it's a nice little gesture. And it's a birthday card, right? Like, I please don't don't have me beating up on it, but at the same time, you know, it really does point to how little this scene has progressed and how it's gone absolutely nowhere, and how everyone is just content to scribble pixels on an immutable ledger and then fight for fight over hierarchies or fight over like, you know, who
00;04;22;00 - 00;04;43;24
Chris
done what or who's getting proper exposure. And, you know, like I'm not conflating those two things together, but when they're happening in parallel as conversations, you know, it's just like goddamned a whole lot of you, none of you have done anything to really deserve all of this. And you're just like, you know, circling the same old I don't know.
00;04;43;27 - 00;05;11;24
Chris
Same old lot, you know, lot in life and like, things, things go on and it's just a little boring and tired and, you know, like, it's a lot of, I don't know, a lot of people in their fields over something that really like it just it ain't it ain't doing all that much these days. And, you know, it's like those battles in academia and, you know, smaller the department, the more vicious the fight sort of energy happening out there.
00;05;11;24 - 00;05;33;28
Chris
And so, look, I don't know, I'm just going to leave it right there. Like it is not an appealing place. It is not a place you can make sense of. And it is one in which, like, you ain't going to grow a shit if you're all pointing fingers at each other and you're all pointing fingers over each other in like a very limited canvas that like, can't really express a lot, you know.
00;05;34;05 - 00;05;35;22
Chris
How's that? Derek, does that help?
00;05;35;25 - 00;05;56;14
Derek
I think I think it did. Yeah. I mean, what, like just to maybe play doctor for a minute, like, how would you diagnose this? Like what? You know, maybe just like, pull out a couple of things. It just that you're saying and some of which I resonate with. But just to pull some of it out, it's like the space feels small.
00;05;56;17 - 00;06;20;01
Derek
The space feels like there's not maybe enough interesting things to go around. So like manufactured. I don't want to say manufactured drama, but storylines just like pop up every other day or every other week around things that to you, Chris, feel maybe like a marginal benefit to your life or anyone's life really. Like these are like such small potatoes.
00;06;20;01 - 00;06;40;23
Derek
We do have this amazing machine that continues to append blocks and tick on, and everyone kind of understands, like there's a heartbeat there and it's really important. And like over time, as long as that heartbeat is strong, like it will continue to get stronger and bigger as more people participate. But that's certainly not the the position that I think crypto art is in right now.
00;06;40;26 - 00;06;59;19
Derek
I'm purely talking about crypto art and like maybe the crypto, our timeline stuff. Meanwhile, you've got people who want to continue to advance what, you know, like the show that there's cool stuff happening here, and they want to put protocols on chain that allow people to interact with it. And maybe these are small lifts, but like, they at least are.
00;06;59;22 - 00;07;18;27
Derek
It's like a birthday card. It's like we're here, we're doing stuff, we're figuring out ways to add value. And we believe in this stuff. And but it's not maybe like whatever, it's not meaningful in the way that like, you know, it could be or we think it should be. Yeah. I mean, I guess like taking out taking some of these pieces out.
00;07;18;27 - 00;07;36;15
Derek
It's like, I guess the questions that come from me. I am curious here for from all of you, it's like, how where do you think how do you think that evolves? How do you think things change? Is there a problem with the people that are left here kind of pointing fingers at each other? Is it something more existential?
00;07;36;18 - 00;07;51;15
Derek
Do you? Yeah. Is there are these are these things that get solved? Are these things that need to get solved because humans need to fix it, or they just get solved with time? Yeah. I'm curious to hear how you guys are kind of thinking through some of this stuff.
00;07;51;17 - 00;08;23;23
Chris
Yeah. Let me let me start here. I think the issue is around meaning and how hard it is to understand what people are saying to, you know, ascribing meaning towards right. And the fact that, like the timeline in which these conversations take place is a great flatness. And so, you know, like part of my criticism of this face is that a lot of these acts, a lot of these artworks or a lot of people's collecting, right?
00;08;23;24 - 00;08;59;14
Chris
The meaning of it is completely overinflated. And that like small acts, which should just be like everyday acts of appreciation are somehow elevated into, you know, ChatGPT slop. Right? And so that's one part of it. Another part is like, look, not all endeavors are are related, you know, equally and that what might be, you know, for a certain person, like a real lift and something that has a great amount of meaning to them, right, because of where they are in their journey or what they're capable of producing.
00;08;59;19 - 00;09;24;22
Chris
That meaning may be personal. It may not be deserving of, you know, broad recognition because relative to other works. Right. It it just doesn't really stack up. Right. And we have this participatory culture, right, of open ledgers in which, like anyone who wants to show up and contribute can, can do so, but we don't properly sort these things.
00;09;24;27 - 00;09;49;11
Chris
And we have these discussions on a place in which, like, you know, all meaning is flattened, right? And so you really like it's almost like if there's a conversation and it's on the timeline, then it must be like treated equally, like, you know, all conversations with a certain algorithmic velocity therefore have the same importance, when in fact they don't.
00;09;49;12 - 00;10;12;12
Chris
And the things that are being discussed aren't like, you know, they're apples to oranges. And so I think that's part of the problem here is just like everything gets thrown together. And when you've got a timeline, so in their fields, you know, just like a giant bitch session in which no one can say, you know, separate like important bitches from like, you know, just winding.
00;10;12;18 - 00;10;29;13
Pri
I think that's a good take, Chris. I mean, I think we need a couple. And I agree with, like, a lot of what you're saying, I think fundamentally we've talked about this is just like there needs to be new interesting work. And I don't know if we've fully seen that. So like this I was catching up on a little bit of the cabal drama.
00;10;29;13 - 00;10;33;18
Pri
So it's it's just like.
00;10;33;20 - 00;10;53;24
Pri
What's his name? Murdo. I can't actually say it, but like, you know, the the idea being like, people are like controlling which artists and it's hard for merging artists like that, you know, could be true. Like maybe we do need more. The thing is fundamentally like if there's a good emerging artist and the work is phenomenal, it will break through.
00;10;53;26 - 00;10;58;13
Pri
Like that's just how in my brain works. Like if the work is that good, it.
00;10;58;13 - 00;10;58;28
Aaron
Will work.
00;10;59;05 - 00;11;02;06
Derek
And we're free market show here, baby.
00;11;02;12 - 00;11;12;08
Pri
Yeah, but it's just like it hasn't been to Chris's point. Anything that feels genuinely like novel, I mean, there's been a few glimpses of that. There has been few glimpses of.
00;11;12;11 - 00;11;30;18
Aaron
There's a lot of work and, you know, I think we don't need to be like overly bearish. I think that there is great work. It's just like it's not for it's not getting kind of like internet based consensus yet, but I'm sure that that will will happen over time. So it just wanted to make sure that that's clearly noted.
00;11;30;19 - 00;11;48;08
Derek
Yeah. There's I think there's a couple of maybe I'm just going to riff on your comment there pretty for a second. And I agree with what Erin is saying. There's so much great work that's being made even right now. Like, you know, there's been working the last couple of weeks from like, that's really that's awesome work. I want to see how this artist unfolds.
00;11;48;08 - 00;12;18;20
Derek
And I think the thing that might not be true is there's just not enough either. The work itself is being made for a pool or an audience that's just not the right audience to support. Kind of like massive prices at this stage, or the work isn't being made for kind of a collector. You know, there's so much analogy between making art for a consuming public and like building a product for a consuming, you know, a segment.
00;12;18;27 - 00;12;45;04
Derek
Like oftentimes I think, you know, artists start from a place of, like, I need to just create this for me, which is amazing, and I'm fully supportive of that. And I have I collect art on that premise all the time. But I'll also say that's, you know, that unless there's proper alignment between how a consuming market wants to consume that work or how it's tailored for them, or whether it's reaching the right audience that you're trying to activate.
00;12;45;05 - 00;13;08;25
Derek
That, to me, is also sometimes a logistics question that a lot of artists never really think about. I think they think they're they're guided by this place of if I make the work, they will come. And rarely in markets in, throughout history is that the approach that's going to kind of like break the sound barrier and reach as many possible humans that want to network your work, or collect your work or view work or go to museum.
00;13;08;26 - 00;13;38;18
Derek
There are like, there should be like this proper alignment around those things if that is what you're trying to achieve. And maybe that's that's not some of the work we're seeing now, even though I would consider it to be good or a great work. I think there's another piece to this which I also just want to flag is like, even if you do believe in this, this concept that we're kind of circling around, which is like markets just have a great way of surfacing amazing stuff, which I do believe is amplified by things like crypto and blockchains.
00;13;38;23 - 00;14;05;13
Derek
There still can be unreasonable behavior by the human actors around the the, the work that might be stifling or preventing or gatekeeping some of those some of those effects, which I think is what shrimp those point is not not necessarily that like, you know, if you make crappy work, it should be amplified, I think, from what I'm reading, between the lines of what shrimp do and others are saying are all things being equal?
00;14;05;13 - 00;14;36;18
Derek
There are there is still like this prestige theater that's happening where certain actors may be benefiting economically from lifting up or showcasing certain work because they know it's more soluble, or there's undisclosed conflicts that are happening behind the scenes that the market doesn't know about are not being transparently said on Twitter that are, you know, you know, relied upon by access to friendships or wealth or whatever social compliance or a network that you've been able to kind of create or tend to yourself off chain.
00;14;36;18 - 00;15;01;29
Derek
And and then maybe there's like these, there's maybe some sprinkling of like these small clicks, you know. Yeah, we've been we've been accused of this flamingo before. Like these small clicks are controlling narratives or discovery or like some, some threshold of institutional legitimacy, which I think are fair comments. I maybe depart from how a lot of people are approaching shrimp, those comments and saying, like, this dude's office rocker.
00;15;02;00 - 00;15;07;02
Derek
I actually think there's a lot of truth to that. And I'm I think it's a discussion.
00;15;07;08 - 00;15;08;29
Pri
I think I think he's off his rocker.
00;15;09;00 - 00;15;13;16
Derek
Like, yeah, I'm not saying you are free, but I am saying I'm thinking divisive commentary around it.
00;15;13;18 - 00;15;22;03
Pri
I don't even I mean, like, I actually like some of the stuff he's saying. I'm like, yeah, you're right. And part of that is like, it's like there's not enough faces and actors in the space right now. Like it's so small.
00;15;22;05 - 00;15;24;03
Derek
So small, so small.
00;15;24;06 - 00;15;25;00
Derek
So small.
00;15;25;00 - 00;15;30;19
Chris
And people are so protective of those who are trying.
00;15;30;19 - 00;15;31;21
Derek
Right now.
00;15;31;24 - 00;15;32;13
Pri
Yeah.
00;15;32;14 - 00;16;02;07
Chris
To a point where I think it's actually a net negative for the space. And like I understand. Hey, this person is trying give them the benefit of the doubt, right. That's fine up to a point. And it gets applied in the wildest of ways. Like I've some multiple, you know, sentiments around like Leopold. Right. And and like this thing and it's just like, I don't know, like, so I'll bring it back into our space.
00;16;02;09 - 00;16;30;29
Chris
I won't touch anything right now. That puts out full stop. He is not good enough at product for me to want to participate, ether time, etc. and yet, like everyone in the states like treats him with kid gloves, he the price of squiggles is still fricking crashed from the last time he fucked around and found out. But you know, say something about Reinhardt and all of a sudden everyone under the sun is like, oh my God, he's trying.
00;16;30;29 - 00;16;58;09
Chris
He's doing this. What? You know? And so like, that's just one example where like, products are discipline and product has real implications. And being good at like 80% of product and not the last 20% isn't good enough, right? Like at least that's my lived experience. And that's how I judge people who put product out. But our space doesn't hold anyone to that standard and like it.
00;16;58;10 - 00;17;11;21
Chris
It's a whole other thing that, you know, where like we overvalue participation and we overvalue like people trying in a way that I don't think people understand. Like the downside of.
00;17;11;22 - 00;17;36;24
Derek
That I might. So I actually do. So there's a couple of things you said that I think align with me. I will also maybe defend Adam Reinhardt a bit, which is two a couple things. First, there might it might be true what you're saying, which is like the the products that are being unfolded maybe are not 100% of the way fully sorted.
00;17;37;01 - 00;17;55;28
Derek
I there's a there's a I mean, if I was going to break down my own feelings for this, the way I think about it is we've got this really great toolkit in front of us to be able to do fun stuff with. That's a theorem. That's the EVM, that's assets that are minted. Those are those are issues. 721 those are your 20s.
00;17;55;29 - 00;18;17;13
Derek
There's maybe other standards that haven't been developed yet. There's V4 hooks on uni. And you know, I would say for many people the lack of imagination of what you can do with this, with the with this palette has basically dried up, like there are very few people that are willing to test the boundaries of what's possible with this stuff.
00;18;17;14 - 00;18;58;10
Derek
And I think one thing I will commend Adam and Renata at doing is really being able to kind of look through the dullness of like how people are fitting into clean boxes around how to use it there and saying like, what if we tried this other thing? And I think Adam also uniquely realizes that the driving motivation for people to actually get off the couch and do something every time, whether it's mint and NFT or ape into a curve or launch a product, or it's usually speculation on some future outcome, I think that's probably the most human thing that has allowed Bitcoin to grow, to allow Ethereum to grow, to bring immense amount of capital
00;18;58;10 - 00;19;19;18
Derek
into the space. And so if I was going to paint the fairest picture of what Adam has done, it's basically to say we know that humans love to speculate on some future outcome. That's largely why we're all here. We're all underwriting this ability for Ethereum to become even larger than it is today, or for Bitcoin to be a bigger commodity money asset tomorrow than it is today.
00;19;19;18 - 00;19;42;26
Derek
And that's largely driven, you know, the mining paradigm in Bitcoin that's largely driving proof of stake. It's largely driving, you know, people who you know, the opportunity costs that people leave behind to kind of like building crypto. And he pairs that with an interesting view on like how to tie things together. Now to your point, Chris, I do agree building with tokens and building smart contracts is a sharp knife.
00;19;42;28 - 00;20;13;16
Derek
Like this is not for the faint of heart. It's not flipping apart. Because number one, like if what you're trying to build is some durable product mode, building in crypto is maybe the worst place to do that. Everything is for it's all open source. Anybody can copy what you do. And so right out of the gates, you're kind of just like at the whim of, you know, yes, you get to build with, with like this incredibly precise, sharp, never before seen alien technology, but you're also doing it in maybe the worst possible format to kind of like defend technology that you've ever had.
00;20;13;17 - 00;20;47;09
Derek
And I think I acknowledge that the way to kind of if it were me and my goal was to try and figure out what works, while also getting humans to speculate, while also doing it in a way that protects my time and my energy. I would probably want to launch multiple experiments to see what works. And when you're launching multiple experiments, you don't have the benefit of building products behind closed doors on private repos for multiple years and then shipping it because like in crypto, it's like you launch something and like the market doesn't want it.
00;20;47;09 - 00;21;11;15
Derek
Guess what? You're toast. And now you've wasted all of your time. You wasted all of your resources. And so there is an argument to be made that like how he's approaching, trying to explore this vast ocean of opportunity is the right approach, which is like ship vast, try weird things, bake some lover of speculation into the protocol, and like let the market decide if it's interesting and if it's not, move on to the ninth project, or the 10th project, or the 11th project.
00;21;11;15 - 00;21;35;09
Derek
But to your point, Chris, it also means if people start using this thing and the, you know, there's a bolt missing somewhere or a wheel falls off, it's like you might lose a crypto punk in the pool. You might, you know, tie the wrong contracts together, which artificially suppresses the price of a previous collection. You might, you know, have an exploit that gets found, and all of a sudden you got to send patches and, you know, be up in the middle night.
00;21;35;09 - 00;22;10;00
Derek
And meanwhile, somebody lost money on the trade because the price is selling down. And and it's just, it's a, it's a shit show. And I guess to maybe the first comment you made and I've been ranting for too long, and I am curious to hear what you guys think about all this. I do think some grace is afforded people who are willing to put themselves out there and try this stuff if if what they're doing is coming from a place of curiosity and kindness and like really trying to figure out how can we actually upgrade the conversation around how blockchains are used, in large part because, like, that's how we came up with DeFi.
00;22;10;02 - 00;22;26;26
Derek
That's how we came up with the IRC 721. That's how Lava Labs decided, you know, pre ERC 721 to make NFTs. And I want to make sure that that isn't lost in some of the criticism that we have for the things that can go awry. But let me pause there and I'm curious to hear from you guys.
00;22;26;27 - 00;22;50;07
Aaron
I thought, I mean, I agree largely with that, Derek, and I do think it's important. It's hard to build stuff. It's hard to put it out. Chris, your point about, you know, product being a discipline and craft is definitely true, right? And it probably will even survive like whatever AGI future we kind of have in place. I think that the things I'd want to see, Derek is not just like innovation though.
00;22;50;08 - 00;23;17;15
Aaron
It's it's innovation that isn't just causing like another speculative boom and bust, which is what I still worry about when I see some of these new experiments, you know, and thinking about kind of the roots of where a lot of the use cases came from, I still think they need to be like utility driven, and that's what I'd love to see, kind of in the next crop of people that experiment here with exploring, kind of like the vast frontier of, of crypto.
00;23;17;15 - 00;23;32;20
Aaron
So that'd be like my only minor pushback here. But I also feel like this may be I'm feeling like the cold northern breeze from from the north, from Chris versus like the the sunny, supportive vibes from, from the West coast.
00;23;32;24 - 00;23;37;07
Derek
The the truth. The truth is somewhere in the flyover states. That's all I'm going to say.
00;23;37;11 - 00;23;56;26
Aaron
Yeah. Which is makes stuff people want, right? Like, you know, when we think about art, when you and the digital art space, like, it's got to be compelling enough that it can cut through the algorithm, right? Like, I think Chris's point about, you know, this like, context collapse that we have on like any social media platform is real, right?
00;23;56;27 - 00;24;18;01
Aaron
Like everything gets flattened. It leans more towards like negative and drama, but it does also like lean towards quality. And that's what we saw, you know, in, in the last cycle. Right. We saw a lot of great people's works that people were cherishing, kind of like cut its way through the algorithm and get like a shared context. So I'm sure that that will happen again.
00;24;18;01 - 00;24;36;11
Aaron
I know a lot of folks are creating new things. A lot of it's like pretty interesting. I'm sure a bunch of it's going to create the next wave. It's I think it's, you know, young somebody young a little bit when you're ragging on their, their product experimentations like my only, you know, noodle needle there would be like focus on utility.
00;24;36;12 - 00;24;58;26
Aaron
Right. Like that's what works in crypto. Like DeFi gained traction because it was useful, right? Like people needed lending products. At least the traders. Did. You know stablecoins work because it solves a problem, right? It's hard to move money around. NFTs worked because it's really hard for digital artists to prove that they own it. Right? And it's really hard to to sell art.
00;24;58;29 - 00;25;16;26
Aaron
You don't have 24 over seven marketplaces for it. So hopefully, like there was a lot of great utility based ideas. In the last cycle, I saw somebody actually tried to catalog all them. I forgot if it was the guy from Alliance Dow or somebody like that that was doing that, which I thought was a cool initiative. But let's let's get to utility.
00;25;16;26 - 00;25;20;26
Aaron
It's Ethereum's 11th birthday. Ethereum's always been about utility too.
00;25;20;29 - 00;25;58;11
Pri
That's true. I guess the one thing where I'll come, I'll come in and this is more of, you know, a me thing, I welcome experimentation. I think that's actually one of the most interesting parts about crypto and why I think crypto people self-select who are experimental. And then you see all these amazing crypto people moving into like AI really, and longevity and all these different areas because like at its core, people who are interested are experimental and interesting and innovative and like I think that that and then in the way that, you know, the protocol works is, is that it allows for this, like open source, like building block, you know, stuff that we already
00;25;58;11 - 00;26;18;21
Pri
know about, like the principles of unchain, the part that I do find exhausting. And maybe it's just like the amount of time I've been in this space is like the investment of time energy, like getting my wallet fired up for something that no one's going to talk about in a week. Like, I know the affirming stuff is cool, but like, as a user, I'm kind of like over it.
00;26;18;21 - 00;26;38;18
Pri
I don't know, like, I'm just not interested in learning about mechanics that like, literally mean nothing. And like, I think that they will eventually lead into a product that I will want to use. But like being an early user, I think maybe I'm just like burnt out from all the affirm apps on chain. Like, but is that just me?
00;26;38;25 - 00;26;39;02
Pri
Like.
00;26;39;03 - 00;26;40;08
Derek
No, it's not you.
00;26;40;15 - 00;26;55;06
Pri
I it's been like a decent amount, enough to be like, I didn't put any. I was going to put a friendship bracelet in like test it out. And then I'm like, I don't know, actually. Maybe I'll just like read about some like read a book instead. Like, I don't know, like, it's just.
00;26;55;13 - 00;26;57;17
Derek
I hear you pre I.
00;26;57;19 - 00;27;04;22
Chris
Write. Like I engage on chain less and less frequently. It probably started.
00;27;04;24 - 00;27;05;14
Derek
Two.
00;27;05;19 - 00;27;28;14
Chris
Two and a half years ago. You know, there was a time where, like, I'd still be minting stuff like crazy and then realize, hey, as much as I love this, no one else does and it just is going to disappear. Now I have 20 of these things. And, you know, as time went on, as we saw, more and more things either be scams or just half thought out protocol ideas that couldn't come to fruition.
00;27;28;17 - 00;27;54;29
Chris
I engaged less and less. And I always said, you know what? I'll be happy to miss one of two huge things and just catch up later on if I actually want to engage with them. And I feel like I've actually not missed a single thing since I started having that attitude. And, you know, it's it's depressing, right? Like, I would prefer to have been proven wrong several times over, and yet it hasn't happened.
00;27;54;29 - 00;28;27;02
Chris
And like I do think there's something we need to be on on guard for, right? Like part of it is what I'm describing is like the cynicism of my own behavior. Because if everyone acts that way, we never get out of this. And so clearly like that is a problem, is not participating, you know, is one issue. The other issue, though, is crypto has had so much brain drain in terms of its talent that I feel like the the timeline.
00;28;27;03 - 00;28;44;25
Chris
The community is so overprotective of anyone still trying that it's starting to bring in this Marxist orthodoxy in which quality doesn't matter and only intent matters. And that, I think, is just as damaging. Right?
00;28;44;27 - 00;28;49;24
Aaron
That's that's just like cultural, you know, everybody gets their participation prize now. So. Well.
00;28;49;25 - 00;28;54;28
Chris
It's especially acute in this face. It's especially right now.
00;28;55;01 - 00;28;55;10
Pri
Yeah.
00;28;55;14 - 00;29;12;03
Aaron
I think I think there's good things about that you want to acknowledge people for. You're putting yourself out there as risky, especially on the internet. So I hear you I'm not I'm just observing that that may come from like a good place. I think on the affirming pieces.
00;29;12;05 - 00;29;16;14
Chris
Come from a good place, Aaron. But if it is not about.
00;29;16;16 - 00;29;17;08
Aaron
It's not effective.
00;29;17;08 - 00;29;42;29
Chris
Well, if you're just flat out lying. Right. What is the that's harmful behavior. If you're saying something that you do not believe in your heart, but you're you're cheering, you're just porting something just because you feel like you have to, right? Then you're basically you're lying. And it does. No one it doesn't own any good. Like, do you ever make things and just be like, you know what, I actually don't know if anyone will tell me whether this is good or not.
00;29;43;00 - 00;30;00;25
Chris
Like, I frequently like I write a book, you know, I like actually like the number of people I can say they're going to serve it to me, straight is very, very small to the point where, like, I will actually have to hire, you know, beta readers who don't know me and who do this for, you know, like a side hustle.
00;30;01;00 - 00;30;14;17
Pri
Stop. I mean, didn't like, didn't Ray Dalio at like, Bridgewater run into this issue where he was like I like literally everyone was asking me. And so I like fire my executive team because I like realized like everyone just agree with.
00;30;14;18 - 00;30;40;27
Aaron
Yeah it's it's a it's a tough challenge and all fair. Chris I do think there's like a point where like the support is not productive. And you know, even worse than that, like you were outlining I do think like the the same issue on the affirmative exhaustion. And it's not even limited to crypto, right. Like AI. AI is equally affirming at this point to it's like, oh, should I poke around with this model or try this product?
00;30;40;27 - 00;31;00;12
Aaron
Or is it just going to be gone and forgotten in like two months? I still think it's all like utility based, like that's the right lens for like everything. And like, I know when you think about art, like thinking about utility is is like a there's a tension there. But I think it just, you know, people really need to love what you're building.
00;31;00;14 - 00;31;09;10
Pri
I also think it also could just be me growing up as an adult in the world. Like I think like most people who love innovation are like tinkerers and like, don't care and want to do it, I think.
00;31;09;13 - 00;31;12;08
Aaron
I think it's just the volume. It's like it becomes like.
00;31;12;10 - 00;31;15;08
Pri
It feels like the volume, like like I think I like doing.
00;31;15;08 - 00;31;29;14
Aaron
That because I feel that I feel the same thing pre, you know, it's just like it's harder to dig in when you don't know it's going to be there. Like. Like what? It's not steady enough. Right. Like you don't know if this is going to grow into something bigger or just be like kind of the flash in the pan.
00;31;29;17 - 00;31;47;06
Pri
Yeah. Even like even like in the Hermes agent. I'm like, oh, yeah. Like I kind of want to do this and like spend a whole afternoon doing this and then and really figuring it out and like using it. And then I'm like, actually, should I? Because it might not be anything anyone talks about in a month. And like I just spent an afternoon doing that.
00;31;47;07 - 00;32;30;09
Derek
I think this is this is a really interesting I think we kind of are coming back full circle to, to the very first conversation we had, because I do really, deeply resonate with some of what Aaron and you guys are saying, which is like the the it's not just AI, it's also just like content broadly, but like the we've had such a collapse in the friction required to kind of like generate digital stuff that's firing off a tweet or putting together a music track, or making a movie or or a film, or like a recording of yourself, or making some AI generated something and putting it out on the internet.
00;32;30;09 - 00;33;04;00
Derek
And that with, with kind of like the amount of just stuff that's out there now, this idea that we are now inundated with more things to buy, more food, places to consume, more like articles to read, more products to try, more software to use the role of like curation and signaling kind of feels like it's also needs to kind of like step up and like and become more important and more valuable so that like pre doesn't have to try 100 experiments.
00;33;04;00 - 00;33;22;13
Derek
She can look to something to tell her like, hey, this is the one based on your interest free that you would probably be more interested in. And the role of who plays that curator has evolved across history. And I use the word curation not as a formal title, because like we look, we use these ideas of soft signals and curation to do everything.
00;33;22;14 - 00;33;39;27
Derek
Like ask your wife something about how she feels about a movie, or, you know, you talk to a friend and they really like the book, and so maybe you'll buy it or you go into whatever a record store. And the guy behind he was like, you know, playing the fake drums is like listening to something. And he's like, this is the record that I love the most over the last 90 days.
00;33;39;27 - 00;33;59;27
Derek
And so you buy it. That to me all fills within the same bucket. But I would say the system for for the amount of like inflected slop, to use a better word, products to try, protocols to use things to buy, like articles to read. It hasn't really matched the velocity of the stuff that we're seeing on the internet right now.
00;33;59;27 - 00;34;21;14
Derek
And so I think some of the commentary around what Shrimpton was saying is just like maybe the people who stepped in first or like the, the, the systems for curation and crypto art. And I think the same would be true for whether or not you should use Hermes agent pre may not be the best ones, like we might not want to use these curators that have willingly stepped in first like they're may.
00;34;21;15 - 00;34;41;14
Derek
There should be better curation. There should be maybe more tailored curation. There should be curators or systems for curation or platforms or events or whatever for things that other people are interested in. Not just like what where the money is flowing today. And I think there's probably a lot of truth in there that I think most people would agree with.
00;34;41;15 - 00;35;05;15
Derek
Now, whether or not there's conflicts in place or like, you know, friendships to be made or burned or social compliance or thinking of the things I mentioned before, like this idea of aspirational legitimacy for what you're working on or what other people are working on in proximity to you. That's kind of a different question. And like, I think I leave it to everybody to figure out for themselves where they sit there or what they're willing to participate in.
00;35;05;15 - 00;35;28;07
Derek
But I do think that the role of this idea of like soft curation to start and maybe more formal, unbundled or or more like tailored curation in the future, that's better than what we've got today, whether we're talking about crypto art or whether or not pretty should use this agenda, Cronus or a different one, I think that is probably surface area that we can all aspire and agree needs to get better.
00;35;28;11 - 00;35;28;26
Chris
Sure.
00;35;28;27 - 00;35;37;23
Chris
It also happens to be the most contested space on the internet right now because taste is the new dot dot dot, right?
00;35;37;25 - 00;35;59;06
Pri
I will say that like I will say, I feel like I'm pretty good at curating what I see, what I'm having. So. So for me, it's less about like curation and having it serves me because I feel like I have my hand in, like we're talking about, like spirituality, like these areas where I like to discover, I feel like I'm good at finding the early adopters and like, really understanding and like seeing what I like.
00;35;59;06 - 00;36;23;01
Pri
For me, it's almost like there's almost too much care, like too much interesting shit coming from different corners of the internet that I don't know how to invest my time. It's like a personal problem. And like then part of me is like, okay, I'm like too inundated. Maybe I should literally just go back to reading like, books again, because my attention span has gotten, like burnt from the amount of, like, things I could potentially be doing.
00;36;23;01 - 00;36;27;18
Pri
And so like, it's like it's more just I just don't even know how to, like, allocate my time. I don't I feel.
00;36;27;19 - 00;36;51;03
Aaron
Like I know this is where this is where AI is going to come in and start shaping how you kind of view things like cutting through the noise on it, but look like boiling that all down, like we can kind of it's good to see people still geeked on it, like NFTs and digital art and, you know, and even like crypto experiments.
00;36;51;03 - 00;36;53;21
Aaron
So hopefully we can all agree on that.
00;36;53;22 - 00;37;09;21
Pri
You know, it's kind of like, funny is when Derek was talking like it's kind of partially why like NFTs, like you see it on your feet, you know, immediately if you like it or not. And like that's the whole it's like the most like it's literally just like something that you can immediately like decide you like.
00;37;09;23 - 00;37;09;29
Aaron
Yeah.
00;37;10;01 - 00;37;24;15
Derek
I think this is why people are so frustrated because like, I think that is why we all came into this space. It was like very democratic that somebody in whatever, halfway across the world could put something out on the internet, and then we could like it and buy it. And that was the purity of why we all came here.
00;37;24;15 - 00;37;45;08
Derek
And I think the frustration that people are feeling is like, well, why? Why is now the, the, the role, why, why are these why have these systems been built that are so antithetical to that? Like why are only a few artists being able to, like, present at certain places? Why are why are, you know, museums only collecting these artists?
00;37;45;08 - 00;38;03;14
Derek
Why are galleries only wanting to represent these guys? Or, you know, why are the opportunities now being filtered and siloed into kind of like the select group? And I would say that is where the comments are coming from. It's like it stems from a reaction against that having been true and it not feeling like it's true to that.
00;38;03;19 - 00;38;04;25
Chris
Yeah. But Derrick, those.
00;38;04;27 - 00;38;40;01
Chris
Those like expectations are batshit fucking crazy. Let's be real right. Like the blockchain and Ethereum invents a new way for people to distribute work. Great. That that way is completely democratic. Great. Why does why then does someone take this mental leap to say, well, because I am participating in this new democratic way. I therefore should have like the affordances and the entries into all of these traditional things that might know fuck all about this new way.
00;38;40;08 - 00;38;40;18
Chris
I.
00;38;40;23 - 00;38;56;25
Derek
I agree with you. I am a free. It's one of the reasons why, like when we did that episode on glitch, like part of the I mean like part of the motivation with glitch is to show artists like you can do this via systems that allow you to have way more control on the process. You can have creative control.
00;38;56;26 - 00;39;15;02
Derek
You can have economic control at the end. If the splits feel fair, you can do it. Permission to say on the internet you don't need a physical space or like the cost structure to support you lugging digital screens around. And I think there's a lot of power to that. And it's where I, I am biased towards the view that you're describing.
00;39;15;02 - 00;39;26;17
Derek
Chris. I'll also just say I'm just trying to flag the frustration I'm seeing on the timeline of why artists are complaining. And I think it does come down to this tension, even if I don't necessarily agree with 100% of it.
00;39;26;19 - 00;39;29;22
Aaron
Gatekeepers are going to gate. I mean, I think that's the answer.
00;39;29;27 - 00;39;48;13
Derek
Yeah, I think there's it's yeah, I think I'm I'm just trying to make sure that even when I don't agree with something, I'm at least trying to acknowledge the source of where it's coming from and trying to figure out how it happened. And I think that's maybe more the more the, the line I'm trying to draw rather than this good that bad.
00;39;48;18 - 00;40;12;28
Chris
By the way, like they're both is and isn't a cabal, right? Let's be real about this. I think part of the enjoyment or part of the durability of the cabal me is the plausible deniability of it, while also the fact that, like, you know, in real practical like effects, there is a cabal, right? Is it a group of people who are actively, like sitting around deciding things?
00;40;13;04 - 00;40;41;04
Chris
Well, maybe in a few cases here and there, is it more that, you know, there's only a couple hundred active participants in this space, you know, with enough like wherewithal to sustain support and move things. Yes. That, you know, and whether or not like they actively decide or don't, you know, or they come to conclusions independently, like it's still a very small group of people and, you know, you're either in or you're out, like, yes, I mean, right, let's be real like there is and there isn't a cabal.
00;40;41;12 - 00;40;43;05
Derek
It's a good point. It's a good.
00;40;43;05 - 00;40;44;05
Pri
Point, I agree.
00;40;44;07 - 00;40;48;03
Aaron
Honestly, I think people just like the word cabal. I think it's that's it.
00;40;48;03 - 00;40;49;10
Derek
Sounds great. Like when.
00;40;49;10 - 00;40;50;02
Aaron
You.
00;40;50;04 - 00;40;50;10
Chris
Write.
00;40;50;16 - 00;40;53;22
Derek
When you say it, it feels hefty cabal.
00;40;53;23 - 00;40;54;18
Pri
It does.
00;40;54;21 - 00;40;55;11
Aaron
It's a great word.
00;40;55;15 - 00;41;02;12
Chris
It's like OPEC, you know, except for. What weekend hobby projects that people put on Ethereum.
00;41;02;13 - 00;41;17;09
Derek
Yeah, I think maybe just to pull one thing Chris just said, which I totally agree with. It's like maybe this was also another thing to remember. There's like 500 people or less of people that actually give a shit day to day about what's happening here. I mean, like.
00;41;17;14 - 00;41;20;02
Chris
Like I wouldn't even put myself in that group anymore.
00;41;20;04 - 00;41;20;17
Derek
Exactly.
00;41;20;18 - 00;41;21;23
Chris
So like.
00;41;21;26 - 00;41;37;29
Derek
I, you know, in other lines of my work, it's like some of the, you know, the messaging and the tweets and the things that are getting are getting, you know, tens of millions of views. And people are really like, debating like, these topics so harshly and like, you know, it felt like what NFTs or crypto felt like maybe five years ago.
00;41;37;29 - 00;42;02;27
Derek
And then you look at some of the conversations that are happening in crypto Twitter, which, by the way, I still look at because I love crypto, Twitter and or crypto art and I'm collecting and I just want to see what, you know, I love I love participating in that ecosystem. And it's like 50 people are liking a tweet and maybe five people are commenting and the comments are the comment sections are, you know, pretty dried out in terms of like the intellectual horsepower that's happening.
00;42;02;27 - 00;42;12;03
Derek
And it's just there's not that much happening here, guys. And like, we're we're really squeezing water out of a rock at this point on a lot of these topics. To Chris's point.
00;42;12;04 - 00;42;14;20
Aaron
You know, what I'm excited about on the utility side.
00;42;14;21 - 00;42;19;26
Chris
And Aaron's like, please get me the fuck away from this. I still have to organize in this community.
00;42;20;03 - 00;42;24;09
Pri
By the way, is Marfa Bohemian Grove for the cabal.
00;42;24;11 - 00;42;27;10
Aaron
I got no stop.
00;42;27;12 - 00;42;28;18
Pri
I just had on.
00;42;28;18 - 00;42;35;24
Derek
That we I mean, we at Flamingo have been cabal. We've been put in the cabal corner early on and I think.
00;42;35;26 - 00;42;39;24
Aaron
That's there was nothing even close to that. It was just people geeking out.
00;42;39;25 - 00;42;40;05
Derek
It's true.
00;42;40;06 - 00;42;40;22
Aaron
We stopped.
00;42;40;23 - 00;42;43;26
Derek
We stopped wearing the robes in 2023.
00;42;43;29 - 00;42;45;11
Chris
Yeah. We're like, what.
00;42;45;11 - 00;42;45;18
Aaron
Are you.
00;42;45;18 - 00;42;48;02
Chris
Talking about? Early for me, it's no robes.
00;42;48;03 - 00;42;54;20
Derek
We stopped wearing the ropes in 2023. We snuffed out the candles in 2024. It's more informal now.
00;42;54;25 - 00;43;12;08
Chris
Yeah. Flamingo doesn't do shit right. Like we're not a very active institution. We are like, you know, in revolutionary times, we're the delegates from Virginia, right, who had all this outsized influence early on. And then as time goes on, right, we're less and less important in the the ecosystem.
00;43;12;09 - 00;43;15;21
Derek
We're still we still have a couple I mean, like there's a.
00;43;15;24 - 00;43;19;06
Pri
Collect, but it's yeah, there is, but it's like it's chill.
00;43;19;08 - 00;43;36;01
Derek
It's chill. It's more chill. It's more yeah I, I actually like it. It reminds me of early Flamingo when it was just like whatever, less than a dozen of us that were really active and talking all the time and sharing stuff. And it feels like that's where we're at now. And I actually kind of love that.
00;43;36;05 - 00;43;58;00
Pri
I also will say the quality of work. It was like, I feel like I started like, I think two weeks ago, like actually sharing some new artists that haven't been like super somehow changed their interface. And like, you can actually find things it like actually is kind of nice. But I do think there maybe it's a good time for me to like start buying like random emerging art again.
00;43;58;01 - 00;44;01;20
Pri
I feel like we did that and it was like pretty successful early on.
00;44;01;24 - 00;44;02;18
Aaron
Completely.
00;44;02;18 - 00;44;03;04
Pri
But I feel like.
00;44;03;05 - 00;44;11;19
Chris
Well, that's because we had the power pre to shape the message and tell everyone what we were buying was important. But I'm kidding, that's a joke, I think.
00;44;11;22 - 00;44;12;28
Pri
I don't know of anyone here.
00;44;12;29 - 00;44;15;29
Derek
That's a that's a that's a hashtag cabal joke.
00;44;16;02 - 00;44;16;25
Pri
That is a yes.
00;44;16;25 - 00;44;17;12
Aaron
Yes.
00;44;17;19 - 00;44;23;02
Chris
So by the way, have you seen how well stockbrokers is done since I told you to go all in on it?
00;44;23;08 - 00;44;24;25
Pri
It has. Dude.
00;44;24;27 - 00;44;32;11
Chris
I told you at eight. Tongue firmly in cheek, that you should get on the stockbrokers. And now it, like, passed.
00;44;32;14 - 00;44;33;23
Pri
It's kind of crazy.
00;44;33;26 - 00;45;06;08
Chris
But this is also like why I don't get on Flamingo anymore. Like, I don't care about this shit, right? It's just like, oh, cool. Something on a, you know, the L2 of the week, like, has your flagship NFT collection and it's going to run to a certain price point at which no marginal buyer can afford it, and then it's going to stall out as, as the, you know, incentives and the, the shiny, like, come and farm this chain, you know, starts expiring like everything on chain has been done before until, you know, it gets undone and we start seeing new shit emerge.
00;45;06;08 - 00;45;25;06
Chris
But like, you know, for Robinhood chain to come out and their their flagship NFT collection to be a bunch of dumb, barely legible pixels, but great. Congratulations. A theorem you're 11. Let's inscribe more pixels on chain. Like, you know, it's just also tiresome.
00;45;25;11 - 00;45;48;05
Pri
Fair, I guess, on that note of it, feeling tiresome because I do empathize with that. But I still love just like the core artwork. Like like I feel like we've, like, overcomplicated it and like to fill the void with, like, fake dumb drama that it's like, kind of like redundant. And I have other things I'd rather like, read about or learn about.
00;45;48;05 - 00;45;59;24
Pri
But on that note, we love, we love, we want to see new art. So DM net society with any emerging artists, why not? And maybe I'll intro the podcast.
00;45;59;25 - 00;46;00;22
Aaron
Let's do it.
00;46;00;24 - 00;46;02;12
Chris
Sounds great.
00;46;02;14 - 00;46;16;07
Pri
Hey everyone, it's me, Aaron, Chris and Derek talking all things crypto, art, AI and more. Just as a quick reminder, the views and opinion our own and not of our employers. None of this is financial advice.