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We share our thoughts and ideas on how to grow a business.
You and I had a call with her about just
our normal marketing and ads and all this.
And, and we were like, Oh yeah,
there's like no leads, no leads.
And then in the background, at some point
when you guys were discussing something,
I was like, let me just add this up
and see like how bad May's leads were.
May was eight non junk leads, April
nine, March eight, meaning it was
actually the same, but then we were like,
well, why do we feel like it's so low?
The churn.
If you want to speak to that, we
had one of our longest running
and most successful clients.
kind of reach a natural stopping point.
Yeah.
I mean, we were working with
them for three and a half years.
We ended up all time high organic traffic.
We ended up all time high lead numbers.
Okay.
May agency update.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
So as though you don't know.
Last month, we said we
reached an all time high.
God, my memory is so bad.
What did we say last month?
Uh, I think we said we
achieved an all time high.
I think it was an all time high
in revenue, is what we said.
Yeah, um, all time high in revenue.
Our client count, that
has continued in May.
So, the changes in client
count, which is the key thing
we report on this, is, um, One.
client churning in May or yes, we
had one client churn in May and then,
um, but two new ones started in May.
So we actually are up one more in
April to 22 clients, which is again
are all around that halfway ish mark.
Um, on our road to kind of like
40 I think when we started this AA
agency kind of updates and series.
We kind of were loosely saying we're
around 20 We want to get to around
40, but the actuals was that we were
around that like technically I think
we're at 17 Yeah Yeah 17 when we said
did that first episode at the beginning
of this year 2024 and so five more to
2022 including a couple churns like net
five more clients out here in May So,
I don't know if we're quite on pace To
double like five months one client each.
Oh, no, that would do it right
because in two years doubling
when you know That's 24 months.
So hey if we keep up this rate, we're
on track um, but anyway, it feels like
we're doing pretty well and The other
sort of and our churn rate has gone down.
So I think this whole
year we've had two churns.
Yeah, and I think What we are The other
kind of big update that we've been doing
on a lot of these update episodes is
then talking about the operational side
and that and how with this increased in
client count, we're feeling like we're
kind of, you know, how do we put this?
Like healthily at the at capacity or
like we're just kind of like, we're
always just kind of at capacity.
I feel like we're trying
to hire and train.
And get ahead of new client growth.
And I feel like every time we bring on
a new person or train someone into that
role, we're kind of back at capacity.
And I feel like that's a,
that's a, it's pretty accurate.
I feel like we've been hiring a
lot of people, like train, like.
Yeah, there's been a lot of new writers.
You could probably speak
to that better than I can.
And then I feel like the second someone
is good enough to come on to an account,
we have a new client that they're,
they're kind of getting taken with.
Yes.
Um, I think asterisk David has been
doing really well in the hiring side.
Uh, and we actually have
a couple extra clients.
I think.
There are a couple extra writers that
we haven't yet assigned to clients.
Um, and I can speak to that.
I know that some of them watch or listen
to this because every once in a while,
when, when the email comes from me,
they'll reply and be like, Hey, like I was
like on the list or I applied or whatever.
And like your episode
says you guys are busy.
Like, am I going to get a piece?
So just like, I think what's happening
is when we get these new accounts,
We need to have someone a little bit
more established be the main person.
Whether it be strategist
or the main writer.
And so some of the new, new
writers we still have on what David
refers to as the bench, right?
Um, because you can't just put like
a At least we would need someone who
can edit them heavily or whatever.
And I'm trying my best to kind of do that.
Um, but I only have so much time.
So, there is some of that, but yes.
More or less, we're doing the dance
just kind of perfectly right now in
terms of new people and accounts.
It's kind of growing at a healthy rate.
I'm almost feeling like it's
That balance is so perfect.
I like don't even want to jinx it.
Um, right now.
So let's see how long that lasts.
That's that update.
And then, uh, the churn, if you want to
speak to that, we had one of our longest
running and most successful clients
kind of reach a natural stopping point.
So it was kind of like a, I don't know,
like a, a po, a really positive ending and
like what we refer to as natural churn.
Yeah.
I mean, we were working with
them for three and a half years.
We ended up all time high organic traffic.
We ended up all time high lead numbers,
uh, in terms of just the reason
behind it, yeah, just reach that point
where we've kind of gone after almost
every variation of bottom and middle
funnel keyword that we can think of.
Uh, a lot of the growth in the last
year then came from updating past pieces
and reclaiming a lot of our rankings.
And so you can look to.
with David on the reclaiming rankings
and seeing that lead growth go up.
Um, and so yeah, hitting those all
time high numbers where we're due to
a lot of the updates and yeah, we're,
there's just not much more that we could
do to help them grow at this point.
And so it's kind of a mutual
decision to just end things
here at three and a half years.
And I'd say very successful on both sides
that like from a learning perspective,
this account forced us to get more
into the updating side of things.
That was historically something
that we had never done.
Uh, just so for some context
last February, 2023, their
rankings had started to decline.
A decent amount just due to increased
competition, the SERPs changing.
And so David actually came in and
that was the account that he took over
and basically update a lot of content
and got them back to all time highs.
And through that process, it created a
process that we now use across a number
of different accounts when I would say.
After two years or so, we start thinking
a lot more about updating old pieces
to get rankings back and historically
that wasn't something that we did.
And so, um, yeah, just pretty cool on
the learning side there and continuing
to add to our services and improve our
services through, through that account.
Yeah, this year.
I mean, knock on wood.
We had that churn episode earlier
about like how that's a problem,
but this year it's been pretty good.
Again, I'm like nervous to jinx it,
but I think we only had, we're, we're
what in, I have a desk right here.
So I'll knock on wood.
Yeah.
And I, I built my own desk with
plywood so I can knock on plywood.
Um, two, two churns, two clients churning.
Yeah.
In five months.
I think that's pretty good.
That would be, I guess if it's one more
month without an additional churn, that
would be on the order of four a year.
At the rate, right?
Because the next month will be six
months in, halfway into the year.
Gosh, we're already
halfway into this year.
And it would be four.
That would be amazing.
Again, I don't want to jinx it.
And then that takes us to kind
of the last topic of this,
which is, or the second to last.
Leads.
So the leads thing I'm going to present in
the way that Benji and I Our minds kind of
handled leads this month, which is we felt
like May was What leads have completely
dried up we're getting no leads And that
was just sort of like this emotional like
how it felt to us And then during a call
with amethyst who was also on a previous
episode, by the way, we mentioned david
twice I should shout out that Someone
on YouTube was it that left a comment
on the latest episode that just said
the entire comment was bring back David.
David is the star of this show.
Um, anyway, we had an
episode with Amethyst.
We had, you and I had a call
with her about just our normal
marketing and ads and all this.
And, and we were like, Oh yeah,
there's like no leads, no leads.
And then in the background at some
point when you guys were discussing
something, I was like, let me just
add this up and see like how bad
May's leads were and the numbers were.
Um, I'm counting non junk leads.
So like the people that fill in the
form that just are like trying to
sell us backlinks or some nonsense.
Uh, I am not counting.
May was eight non junk leads, April
nine, March eight, meaning it was
actually the same, but then we were like,
well, why do we feel like it's so low?
It's because the number of leads that
were good enough to get on a call.
Was really low.
I think in May we have so far gotten on
one call and we have like another call
coming, um, or being scheduled and,
and that we realized, and we were doing
this analysis right before recording.
This is just, just kind of like the
statistics of how lead qualification
goes, the number of non junk.
So like not people trying to like
ask for a guest post using our lead
form, that's just complete junk
and we're not even counting that.
Non junk is the same, but.
Those have different
qualification criteria.
So even if it's a real lead, that's
not junk, it may just not be someone.
When we see what they filled in or
we do an initial email exchange with
them, not someone we can or would want
to work with and we sort of decline.
And so we don't, we don't
take a call or whatever.
Um, cause we do some like basic
questions and filtering both in the form.
Then when they fill out the
form, we send them an email
with some additional questions.
And just that email exchange sometimes
can be like, okay, like, is this
something that we could work with?
Um, those were just happened to
be low, like some clients that are
companies that wanted to talk to us.
And we were like, ah, I don't think
this is going to be a fit or whatever.
Um, so that's fine.
Like it happens and yeah, but otherwise
that's actually been decently steady.
And then it takes us to our actual
last topic, which you can describe,
which is our SEO is going pretty
well, our own SEO for ourselves.
Yeah, that's been something
I've been feeling really good
about in the last few months.
Um, we had someone new on our team
take over the thinking and the writing
for grow and convert site and we've
updated some past pieces and Yeah,
rejiggered some things and we've
actually seen a lot of ranking wins.
I think it's a combination of that
plus both algorithm updates or just
the algorithm updates this year
really helping us on the ranking side.
And so I think now we're at something
like 50 first page rankings for
pretty good keywords that we've
gone after for a long time.
And so feeling pretty good about that.
We're going to really keep pushing there.
I think that that's been
a huge initiative for us.
I think I remember, I think we said
we started that in November of 2022.
So what been like a year and a
half and we're really starting
to see rankings take hold now.
So there's been a big concerted effort on
the ranking side only in that time period.
And then the other thing that we recently
did is just upped our ads budget as well.
just to try to get more
leads in the short term.
And it's basically just a
combination of those two things.
We don't really have anything
else other than this series
going on the marketing side.
So it's just content ads, which is
basically promotion of our content.
So just trying to distribute it that way
and then this, and that's pretty much it.
Yeah.
Maybe one thing I want to talk
about in regards to that is we had
mentioned a couple of months ago,
we had stopped working with clutch.
Which was a directory for agencies
and it's kind of like paid placement.
So, essentially think of G2 Crowd and
those rating sites for the agency world.
We felt like it wasn't really
doing anything in terms of leads.
Actually, it wasn't doing
anything in terms of leads for us.
We've been tracking that for
over a year and I don't think
we got any good leads from that.
And It had been to try to get us to show
up when people were searching for best
content marketing agencies and best B2B
content marketing agencies and variations
of that best SEO agencies, uh, to help
us with ranking for that keyword because
our pages that we had created to go
after those keywords weren't ranking yet.
And, and, and a key point is,
and that's Clutch's offering.
Yeah, they are.
So like Clutch's whole offering is.
They have created these directory
pages just like the G2 and
whatever pages for software.
That when you Google best whatever agency,
I think, I think they're just marketing.
So best SEO, best content agencies,
their directory is up there.
And helps us show up as one of
the top agencies when someone's
searching for that query.
Right, so if you pay them, I don't know.
Can we say this?
Like that's their business model.
I feel like it should be transparent
because not enough people know this.
And I think it, I mean, to me, it's like
kind of a shady business model in terms
of like that, that customer experience
that they think they're going to review
site searching for the best agencies
and it's just like a completely pay to
playlist, which I mean, we did it to
test to see if it could actually drive
leads for us, turns out it doesn't.
But yeah, I mean, what we do
for a lot of our clients is
go after these best keywords.
For them.
And so we had created pages to
go after best content marketing.
Agencies best B2B content
marketing agencies.
And I think a couple other variations
of our own bottom of the funnel
keywords a year and a half ago.
And as you can imagine,
it's extremely competitive.
We're competing against every other
marketing agency that does this
clutch, all these other review sites.
And as of a couple of weeks ago, we
started ranking on the first page
for those and the idea of canceling
clutch was let's take that five
figure budget that they charged us.
And then shift that over.
And we said, if this is not driving
us leads, can we just take that
budget that we had spent on them?
And either push it to the link building
side or just push it to try to help us
rank for these keywords with our own
pages instead of paying someone else.
I mean, we haven't even really used
any of that budget yet, but kind
of at the exact time that we quit
with them, we started ranking on
the first page for those keywords.
It was just a combination of updating
a couple of those pages and just
links over the last Kind of year
and a half finally taking hold.
And there's been some really
cool things that have come up.
It like, uh, I think last week I
searched on perplexity for best content
marketing agencies, and I shared this
on LinkedIn, but, and best B2B content
marketing agencies, and we were the
number one suggested agency that came up.
And I think it was a largely from our
own article being used as the source.
For the information and that, and I
think you looked at ChatGPT and we're
also in the top 10 list on ChatGPT too.
Cool learning for us is just on the
AI side and the AI suggested results.
The AI is Googling, kind of.
I mean, ChatGPT is owned by Microsoft,
so it's using, is using Bing.
But ChatGPT 4.
0 that I just searched, that
Benji's talking about just before
we started recording this update.
Um, I just asked ChatGPT, it's probably
in my history, where is that window?
Um, here we go.
I asked them, I'm not sharing this
so don't worry if you're listening,
I'm just gonna say it out loud.
But I asked ChatGPT what are some of
the best content marketing agencies.
Um, and it actually
now says in this new 4.
0 model, um, searched six
sites and it's like from Bing.
And so one of the sites it has is Bing.
Us, growandconvert.
com.
And so that those are the six sites
that it's saying I'm using to inform the
results that I'm about to type out to you.
And so there's two wins there.
One of them, it's like ours is one
of the six that it's finding on
Bing, which is interesting when I,
when I Google that same thing, best,
Content marketing agencies on Bing.
Is that funny that I
just worded it that way?
But, um, when I Google it on Bing,
I don't actually see our post on
there, but anyway, and then we are
the 10th that it happened to spit
out and it's like text result.
Yeah.
And on perplexity too, like I searched
it today and now there's different
sources and a different list and we
actually show up as like a notable
mention instead of one of the top tens.
And so, but you had searched
it last week on perplexity
and we were like the top one.
We were the number one suggestion,
suggestion for both top B2B
content marketing agencies and
best content marketing agencies.
All that to say there's
a lot of fluctuation.
Again, these are super
competitive keywords.
I think.
A few weeks ago, we were
not even on page one.
Then we got bumped to page two and
then we got shifted back to page one.
So there's a lot of things in flux
and things moving here, but just
cool to see the strategy starting
to work for our own agency.
Both in Google and in
the AI suggested results.
And it's going to be a key focus for
us over this next year is continuing
to, to try to build authority to those
pages and, and show up on page one
in Google for both of those terms.
And then also in some of these AI
suggested results, I will say, and you
can disagree with me or edit this out,
which would be funny if you didn't.
And then it literally says me saying you
can edit this out, which makes it sound
like I'm saying dramatic thing, but.
I'm probably not going to edit it out.
I'm already going to tell you that.
So, but we, we, I think we've talked about
this publicly, but like, um, uh, I just
don't want to like necessarily, like,
we're trying to be transparent in the
agency growth side, but at the same time,
we understand that there's like other
people that literally offer very similar
services that like watch, follow, listen
to us, and I'm trying not to like reveal
everything that we're, we worked hard
to like figure out and do, but anyway.
Um, in terms of like tactics, but I
feel like still well, maybe because
we're just now getting these rankings,
but my prediction Is that still our
best leads will not come from this.
I would agree with that actually.
What was interesting about the clutch
thing, so, even though people have seen
us on Clutch, I don't think people are
Hold on, before you say that analysis,
I need to give the listeners some more
background that, your that is in your
head, but is not necessarily in theirs.
What Benji says, even though people
have seen us in Clutch, he means
something extremely specific.
Which is that, we were like, we emailed
like our clutch rep and was like, or
the clutch rep like reached out to us
and was like, are you guys gonna renew?
And we were basically like,
hell no, we're not gonna renew.
Are you kidding me?
This thing has brought only like
trash, like literally like people
reaching out to us trying to sell us
stuff because they reach out to every
agency listed on Clutch to try to
like sell them some whatever whatever.
And we were like, this
has brought us no leads.
Um, or no, like, real leads.
And the Clutch reps would
be like, No, no, no.
You guys.
Trust me.
Look at these stats.
And so, what they would show is, you've
been, your page has been viewed this
many, this many times, or whatever.
That's what Benji means, even
though people have viewed us.
So, like, yes, people Google
Best Content Marketing Agency.
Yes, Clutch is up there, and, again,
the business model is, you pay them,
and we paid them, to be listed instead.
And you, by the way,
you pay them in tiers.
You pay them a lot to be
listed at the top, top.
And we paid some middle tier,
something, something, whatever.
They're these plans.
And so the clutch was like, look,
like all these people are finding you.
Like, yes, but like not one of
them turned into like a good lead.
And so that may not be as bad
when our own page is ranking.
Hopefully, after all the effort
spent for these like kind of obvious
bottom of funnel keywords for us,
we'll get some reward from it.
But.
Anyway, now you can do it right now.
Yeah.
So I think the decision to hire
an agency is a lot different
than the decision to hire or to
like sign up for a SaaS product.
So these best in category keywords.
I think, personally, this is not
having a ton of data, it's just kind
of my anecdotal thoughts based on what
I've seen so far, is that these list
posts don't work as well for service
businesses, especially high price point
ones, because I don't think someone's
gonna just go to some random list of
best B2B agencies, look at the list,
and be like, Oh, I should hire them
because they're ranked on this list.
I think there's a lot more that
goes into that decision than
just looking at these lists.
So I think the difference is
a SAS product, a lot of these
lists for category keywords,
it's a very low barrier to entry.
They can go sign up for a trial
and try the product themselves and
see if it's a good fit for them.
But you, you, you don't have that
same experience hiring an agency.
And so to me.
Our best content is the stuff
that goes very detailed into our
strategy and how it's differentiated
from what most people do.
That seems to be what
converts most people.
Like most of the prospects that we talk
to has said they've read our blog for
years and it's a combination of everything
that we've written and how it's so
different from talking to other agencies.
That's what convinces
them to work with us.
And so I do, it's not to say
that it's not, these best posts
aren't good for the agency.
Again, I think it drives awareness,
but I don't think it's that final
conversion point like it is for a
lot of the, these SaaS products.
Yeah.
Let me give my perspective
because I have direct experience
from having ranked for this.
for the growth rock, my AB testing
agency, which I've had forever.
I had that and that was the context
in which I met Benji many years ago.
Um, I did this a long time
ago for ourselves and I think
we still rank number one.
I can double check right as I'm
doing this e commerce CRO agency.
Yep.
Still number one for this.
And I have gotten leads from it.
It's not a ton.
That's a very like low volume phrase
compared to a content marketing agency.
But, um, it's very specific.
We do e commerce CRO only,
but here's the anecdotal.
So I, so I think when we continue
to rank for this best content
marketing agency, we will get some
leads and some of them will be good.
I've gotten a couple of very good leads
from it, but here's the difference.
What I noticed is those people just
fill in the lead form of the top
whatever pages they see on that.
Because it's bottom of the funnel.
This is what you're saying.
Like for SaaS that's okay because your
product should just be the sales pitch.
So like if you get someone to start a
free, if you're selling, CRM software
and they google best CRM software or
whatever and they fill it in and they
start your free trial Good for you Now
the rest of the job shouldn't be that
your product should be good enough to
sell that but in this case They don't
have that So we get on a lead call and
they're like and and they do like classic
stuff of someone who doesn't know you
Has not read your stuff doesn't kind of
think of you as like a good fit for them
They just think of you as a commodity.
They filled out five to ten different
lead forms on page one They're
gonna go all the way to me Yeah.
Tell me why you're the best.
Right.
And then what do they do?
They're comparing, they're like
price shopping a lot of them.
And so in for growth rock, I
barely market it or whatever.
Um, if you need eCommerce
CRO, please reach out.
Just kidding.
But like, because I'm focusing
basically all of my effort or most
of my effort on grow and convert, but
for grow and convert, that's uniquely
bad because on the flip side, we've
built this great brand over the years
and our best leads are the ones that
are like, like we asked, how did
you hear about us on the lead form?
They say I've been
reading for a long time.
One of them recently wrote long
time call for, what was it?
First time caller, long time listener.
It was like that radio thing, that phrase.
And so those are the best.
Cause they're like, I've
been reading this forever.
I've moved to two different companies.
Finally, I'm, um, you know, content
manager or whatever at a company
that like can hire you guys.
Let's talk that that sales pitch
is amazing because you have been
selling to that person for four years.
And they come in already ready to go.
Um, alternatively also some of the,
when they discover one of our strategy
or how to articles, whether it be
on social LinkedIn ads, this and
that, those are also pretty good.
They may not have read for years.
We had a call like that this morning.
Um, but when they discover it
organically that way somewhere,
Someone emailed it in their newsletter.
They are like, it resonated
with them enough to reach out.
And they're like, Oh yes,
like I've had this problem.
You've said this thing in your
article, you're approaching this in
a way that I haven't heard before.
So how many leads tell us that
what the reason I reached out is
because it seems like you guys are
doing something different and every
other content agency did the same
stuff that like wasted our money.
And so those are the best.
So will we get leads from this?
If we're, if we keep moving up
for these like classic bottom
of the funnel kind of keywords?
Yes.
Will some of them close?
Probably.
That's my prediction.
But overall, the like real
engine are the like how to stuff.
And I think from a pain point SEO
perspective, I will share my screen for
this for people that are real, like our
foundational article for pain point SEO.
What we're saying is that these tip of
the bottom of funnel, like category,
keywords, comparison alternatives,
we haven't really done that.
That'd be kind of maybe we can
do it a little bit tacky to
do that in the agency space.
But nonetheless, this, it's, It's
a little bit different that what
Benji is saying is this jobs to be
done content, strategy articles.
We write how to do this, how to do
that, highlight us better because it
allows us to go into depth on how our
strategy and technique is different.
And then it's self selects the clients
who resonate with that are the ones we
want because they see that uniqueness.
They see the originality, they see what
differentiates us when we talk strategy.
And those I think for agencies
and all are our best leads.
Side note, now that it's getting
worked up about this, this is also
why we don't actually work with
any agencies or service businesses.
We're very careful to filter
from our client perspective.
We used to do a lot of those
in the early, early years.
And it became tough because in
order to market well and write the
content well, you need a lot of that.
And sometimes it's hard to get it as
a third party vendor, or maybe the
company just doesn't have a lot of that.
It's kind of like MeToo ish
and it became hard to market.
So if you're a service business,
like I would say marketing
services is more specific.
We don't really take
marketing services anymore.
Yes.
Sorry.
We'd have a lot of service businesses.
If you're in health care, we would
love to talk to you or a lot of other
service businesses have worked out.
Well, yeah, cool.
That's the May update.
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