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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in Sobriety. Thanks for being [00:01:00] here. I'm Sonia and I'm with my sister in sobriety. Actually, my sister in law, Kathleen. Kathleen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:07] Kathleen: I'm good. I'm excited to just be recording you and I today. Yay.
[00:01:11] Sonia: too.
[00:01:12] Kathleen: Not that I don't love our guests. We love our guests, but it's, I don't know. I was like, can we record an episode? Just you and I again?
[00:01:19] Sonia: Yeah, I know. I'm excited too.
[00:01:22] Kathleen: How are you doing?
[00:01:23] Sonia: I'm okay. Um, nothing super exciting going on over here in Pennsylvania. We just had the election. So, you know,
[00:01:32] Kathleen: No comment. We're not going to comment on
[00:01:33] Sonia: no, no, no, no. I'm just, I'm regrouping.
[00:01:36] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:01:37] Sonia: happy I'm Canadian. So yeah. So today I'm happy we're talking about this topic, but it is not a joyous topic.
[00:01:44] Sonia: We're diving into grief and it's really something a lot of us encounter on our sober journeys. So I think it's important and it's a complex thing all on its own. And when you're sober, it can take on a different shape. So we're going to [00:02:00] explore what grief can look like and how it interacts with sobriety.
[00:02:02] Sonia: So let's get. Into it.
[00:02:05] Kathleen: So what do you think is so significant about experiencing grief sober?
[00:02:11] Sonia: So I think when you're sober, and this is true of like all emotions in sobriety. You have to face them, right? Like all the kind of raw. Intense stuff without turning to whatever substance is your substance of choice to numb it or dull the pain or to soften the edges. So I feel like.
[00:02:30] Sonia: It's just super vivid, right? and I think that, without your usual coping mechanisms, you do have to just. Just sit in it. And I hear that a lot about just like sitting in it. Like sitting in the negative feelings, which when you're somebody that has used substances is really hard for you to do, right?
[00:02:49] Sonia: Like you're not someone who sits in like negative emotions like sadness and anger. And so yeah, I think that's, that's the difference.
[00:02:58] Kathleen: So what do you think this could mean for the [00:03:00] listeners?
[00:03:00] Kathleen: I think, I think it's really important, and we're going to talk about this a lot in this, this episode, of what, what grief actually looks like versus what we think it looks like. And I, I think that we being collective, we might have an idea of what grieving is like, how we support people in grieving, what grieving might look like in sobriety, what grief actually is, and it might not be any of those things you think.
[00:03:31] Kathleen: So I think that's. That's what it might mean to people. What, what do you think it could mean? Well,
[00:03:41] Sonia: your sobriety journey. So at the beginning it, it just might be totally unbearable. The idea of confronting grief without substances. And, for some people that are further along, it might. Symbolize growth, or resilience when they're able to work through grief and a better understanding of themselves.
[00:03:59] Sonia: [00:04:00] But, and I think this of sobriety in general, it really is. opens up like authentic experiences. And so I think that's true of grief. I think you're engaging with it in, in ways you couldn't have before. And, and I think you, you can get a sense of closure and healing that maybe you can't if you're not sober.
[00:04:22] Sonia: So what does it mean to you?
[00:04:24] Kathleen: I agree with that. Like, I, I am very much about feeling the feels and when you're grieving to just grieve. Um, And I think what it means to me is that it's really not a linear journey. And we're, we are going to talk about this too. It's not like, oh, well, you're going to feel this and then you're going to feel this.
[00:04:46] Kathleen: And I remember when I experienced grief a long time ago, when your brother and I, uh, divorced and I became a single mom. I remember calling a friend and saying, how [00:05:00] long is this going to last? Like, how long? And now I, unfortunately, know the answer to that, fortunately, unfortunately, is it's gonna be as long as it takes, and it doesn't really have an end point, which sometimes is a difficult thing to bear in the beginning, but knowing that that's normal and that's okay.
[00:05:24] Sonia: Yeah. I think another thing is that. I had a very like traditional idea of what grief is and I thought it was just like associated with death and then when I was getting divorced, I would call you, right? And be like, how long is this going to hurt?? What do you think? Like 6 months?
[00:05:39] Sonia: and, and yeah, you explained it to me like, this is grief and it's going to take. As long as it's going to take.
[00:05:45] Kathleen: Mhm. Mhm. What does it mean to you?
[00:05:48] Sonia: so there's this phrase that never made sense to me until I went through my divorce, which is, the only way out is through. And that is the opposite [00:06:00] of how I dealt with stuff when I was drinking, so again, it's like learning how to just process feelings as they come to you without a buffer, and knowing that you can be afraid, but you can't avoid those feelings.
[00:06:13] Sonia: And so, yeah, I, my mindset really shifted and changed how I looked at loss, and it's still something I'm learning. To do and so still I'm still like every few weeks. I'm like the only way out is through means something like a little bit more to me. So you recently had a really big loss and you went through the grieving process and you didn't numb yourself and you didn't emotionally bypass.
[00:06:43] Sonia: Can you talk a little bit about it?
[00:06:45] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, I'm still going through the grieving process. So, my dad died seven weeks ago, so I'm definitely still in the grieving [00:07:00] process, and it was a really interesting, experience because my dad had been sick for a long time. So I had started grieving him before and which is something called anticipatory grief.
[00:07:16] Kathleen: So I was really grieving his loss for many years, many years before. Um, He actually before he actually died and it's interesting because I thought I would be totally fine. And I know this is a funny thing given that I'm a therapist. I also worked at a hospice, but I thought because I was actively seeing him deteriorate that I would be not, you know, I thought I would grieve, but I didn't think it would hit me as hard as it did.
[00:07:47] Kathleen: And then. When he actually did die, I was definitely in shock for, you know, the first 12 hours. Like it just didn't seem real. And then, yeah, I was [00:08:00] like in deep, deep grief. Um, I didn't numb myself per se, not with drugs or alcohol, but I have a tendency to work when I am wanting to avoid my emotions. So I Do you think I did that?
[00:08:18] Kathleen: Part of it was necessity. I needed to go back to work. Um, and part of it was, I actually just felt better when I'm focusing on other people's issues. I'm not thinking about my own grief. Um, but what I've really seen just in the last couple of weeks is the grief is still there. It hits me in waves. I was driving just.
[00:08:41] Kathleen: Driving with my daughter the other day, and something reminded me of him, and I just burst into tears in the car, because it was just like a wave, and then I was able to be like, okay, okay, the wave has passed, but it, It's a constant, I constantly thinking about, [00:09:00] okay, how do I feel this? How do I process this?
[00:09:03] Kathleen: I also think I started to binge eat sugar, um, even more than I had been. We've talked about this in previous episodes and I again realized, okay, this is me trying to cope with grief. And so I'm like, no, that's not what I want for my life. That's not how I want to choose to cope with it. Um, And I think we're going to get into some of the myths of grief today, but.
[00:09:27] Kathleen: Yeah, I would say it's an, it's an easy thing to do is to try to bypass the emotions. It hurts so much. and again, there's many different kinds of grief and when it hurts that much, we want to avoid that pain. So having to sit with it takes a lot, a lot of courage. ,
[00:09:48] Sonia: And so that is one type of grief. And I think that's a big one, right? death and the death of a parent. What other types of grief have you experienced since you [00:10:00] started your sobriety journey?
[00:10:02] Kathleen: there's, there's a lot of different types of grief. So I since I began my sobriety journey, there is the grief of. loss of a relationship. So my, my divorce, the thing with the divorce is it does cause grief, but in so many different ways. So there's grief of the person that you're losing.
[00:10:25] Kathleen: There's also grief about the life that you thought you were going to have. There can be grief around Um, losing social friendships, uh, there can be grief of your identity. There's so many, many types of grief when it comes to divorce. For example, there's also. Something called cumulative grief and grief is like grief that builds up over time and it's when there are multiple losses.
[00:10:54] Kathleen: So I had multiple losses. I got a divorce. I became a single mom. So my daughter [00:11:00] lost her dad and the fact that he was no longer present in her life. You know, COVID was happening. So that was grief of, everything we knew and everyone experienced that. So there's a lot of different types of grief and, I definitely experienced those at that time.
[00:11:18] Sonia: What are some misconceptions about grief? You've encountered. I know I have a misconception that your daughter and I both are like, stop calling it grief when the person is still alive.
[00:11:30] Sonia: And we have both said this to you because you think that we are, she is grieving her dad, my brother, but
[00:11:38] Kathleen: Well, she said it because you said
[00:11:40] Sonia: well. He's still alive!
[00:11:43] Kathleen: Yeah, but it's
[00:11:44] Sonia: He's down the street!
[00:11:46] Kathleen: It's still grief.
[00:11:48] Sonia: Okay, so that is, that's a misconception. Can you tell me a little bit
[00:11:52] Kathleen: well misconception is, yeah, you can be grieving something, someone, and they can still be alive. That's, that's a huge, [00:12:00] huge grief. Um, one of the major misconceptions that, I will talk about a little bit more later is that there are stages of grief.
[00:12:09] Kathleen: So lots of people will have heard of the five stages of grief by Elizabeth Kubler Ross. And she was a very well known doctor who specialized in Death and dying. And, uh, so there's a misconception that you need to go through these stages in a linear fashion and you're going to go through all of them.
[00:12:30] Kathleen: And then once you get to the other side, your grief will be over. So that is definitely a myth. There's also a myth, at least in North American society that you eventually Die early. And I'm making air quotes around this because you don't get over grief. you don't get over it. you learn to live with it.
[00:12:48] Kathleen: So, that is another misconception.
[00:12:52] Sonia: That's really interesting. so when you're grieving and you're sober, did you notice any unexpected [00:13:00] emotions or thoughts?
[00:13:02] Kathleen: I, yeah, like I mentioned, I, I think the whole process of grief was unexpected for me because I didn't think my, my father was. quite old and had been sick for more than 20 years. So I thought at least for him and that grief that I wouldn't have been as affected, but my feelings were much, much stronger than I thought.
[00:13:26] Kathleen: I remember. Like in the first week feeling like, how am I actually going to continue? Like, how am I going to see clients? How am I going to do this? Cause I just couldn't, I couldn't get through 10 minutes without crying. Um, and so I think the intensity of it was a bit unexpected for me and the same, actually with, with the grief of the loss of my marriage, I, I asked for the separation, but I was.
[00:13:54] Kathleen: I was so devastated by the loss of that marriage. So I think I just felt the loss [00:14:00] more than I thought I would.
[00:14:02]
[00:14:30] Sonia: were there any friendships or relationships that surprised you during your grief?
[00:14:34] Kathleen: Mm hmm. I, uh, I really came to realize that most people don't know how to respond to someone in grief. And I have a friend, an acquaintance, who is a young widow, and she wrote a book called, Grief Ally. And, uh, I think she was prompted to write it because when she [00:15:00] lost her husband, She wanted to write a book about how people can support someone through grief.
[00:15:05] Kathleen: And so what I was expecting from some of my friends and relationships I didn't really get in terms of the support that I needed and wanted but I really came to realize that it was because People didn't know how. It's not that they were bad people, it was just that they didn't know how. And we hear about that, people just say like, oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:15:31] Kathleen: And, um, I, I just wanna give you space. And for me, I didn't, I didn't want space like I wanted to just. Talk about my dad. And so that was a really in addition to the loss I also went through this loss of Feeling like my relationships and friendships were not what I thought they were but then I came to realize No, it's just people don't [00:16:00] know how to deal with that.
[00:16:01] Kathleen: They don't know how to be with someone
[00:16:04] Sonia: Yeah, I wish you had given me grief ally because I was one of those people that I just don't know, because I haven't had a major death, I don't know what to do or say or act. in a sense, it's like even with sobriety, like if you haven't felt that like pain of addiction, it's really hard.
[00:16:24] Sonia: To put yourself in that situation and know exactly what to say, and we find it in sobriety too, and people will avoid it, right? They'll avoid you, or they'll avoid talking about it, and so, Yeah, that makes sense to me. Um, so what, how did you take care of yourself emotionally when you were grieving?
[00:16:43] Kathleen: I surprisingly, I surprised myself because I continue to exercise every day. Which I know I was, I told you, I was like, I'm still exercising because it just made me feel so much better. And so I would get outside, I would take a walk, I would get the air on my face. [00:17:00] I still meditated. I was doubling down on that.
[00:17:03] Kathleen: I was forcing myself to go to sleep to get the amount of sleep I needed, even though I didn't always, but I really. Really kept my practices in place. I, uh, increased my therapy sessions and, I journaled a lot, but just like. When we, I answered the question about the friendships. One of the things that was missing is that community.
[00:17:29] Kathleen: and so I talked to my mom a lot because she was grieving as well. And we would just like endlessly talk about my dad and that felt so much better to me. So those are some of the ways that I took care of myself emotionally. And I'm still taking care of myself emotionally in that way. Because again, it's been seven weeks.
[00:17:48] Kathleen: And, It's actually been, it's not a long time, not a long time.
[00:17:53] Sonia: It's not when you say it like in terms of weeks. It doesn't seem like a long time I know we we don't [00:18:00] want to be toxically positive here. But is there a positive? Lesson or outcome through this experience?
[00:18:06] Kathleen: my gosh. Totally. So I, I have so many different positive outcomes from this. The first one being, I know how to show up for people differently now in grief. So my friend who I actually haven't seen for a couple of years, but she's still, she was a really close friend of mine, still a friend and her mother recently passed and I'm like, Oh my God.
[00:18:25] Kathleen: I sent her a frozen lasagna. She doesn't even live near me. I was like, I am on it. I am, I am doing something that I know will support her. And, she told me, yeah, I just don't feel like cooking. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like people support, you know, when someone's ill, but then after they die, it's okay, I Well, a week or two after that person's not okay, they're still not.
[00:18:50] Kathleen: Okay. So how do you support them? Um, so I think I'm supporting people in different ways now. Um, and, and that is a positive income [00:19:00] outcome. That's a positive outcome. I also think that I, I really am not sweating the small stuff. To be honest, I miss my dad hugely. I am trying not to take. Relationships for granted the people I want in my life.
[00:19:18] Kathleen: I am I am really trying to Honor those relationships and I am just not sweating the small stuff as much
[00:19:28] Sonia: are there specific ways you honor or try to remember your dad?
[00:19:33] Kathleen: Yeah, yeah, I do I have a playlist that him and I made together actually before he died so I listened to it a lot and um, I have uh There's like a specific symbol that I have for him. We actually, because I knew he was he was dying and then actively dying, I was able to have a conversation with him about You know, after you die, Dad, what are you going to come back to [00:20:00] me as and because we, we believe in that
[00:20:03] Kathleen: And so he was very specific about what he was going to come back to me as. So I have that symbol around me quite frequently in different things. And, um, I have obviously his photo around. I honor him by, you know, He used to love fish and chips. So I have been sometimes when I go out, I'd never would order fish and chips, but I'm ordering fish and chips now for him.
[00:20:29] Kathleen: And so this is something. When, when we look at like grief therapy, this is something called continuing bonds and it, when, when someone dies, and this is also true of other grief, your relationship with them doesn't need to die. You can still honor it. And so at least when someone dies that you've had a positive relationship with.
[00:20:53] Kathleen: my relationship with my dad still continues just in a different way. I think of him every day. I ask [00:21:00] questions to him. I wonder what he would do in this situation. And for me, that's continuing the bond with him.
[00:21:08] Sonia: Wow. Yeah, I, I can see that now that you say it.
[00:21:12]
[00:21:13] Kathleen: Sonia, you have a different experience with grief. Um, it's not necessarily death related grief, but for the life you had.
[00:21:21] Sonia: Yeah, no, I have, um, now that I understand that that's what it is, I have a lot of grief, um, over the end of my marriage and it has changed me so much.
[00:21:32] Kathleen: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:21:34] Sonia: Yeah, I was sober for five years, and those first five years were actually, surprisingly smooth, in terms of life changes. I had some, minor speed bumps, like, issues with my parents, but nothing that really, jeopardized my sobriety until my divorce. And when that happened, you kept saying, and my friends kept saying, you're grieving.
[00:21:58] Sonia: And [00:22:00] I, I, it made me angry because one, it implied like there was some finality to it, right? And I think I was still hoping that my marriage would work. And also it was like, he's not dead. Right? And so I know I keep saying that, but it was a choice someone made, right? And so how can grief be the result of a choice?
[00:22:21] Sonia: And so, I think partly the idea of grieving my old life just didn't make sense to me. Um, cause I was like, well, I guess I'll have a new life. Why do I have to grieve this old one? But, yeah, looking back, I'm still grieving the loss of my Still alive ex and and the life we had.
[00:22:45] Sonia: And so, I go between being so, so sad and in pain about it to feeling like I have this great new life and it's funny. We have another sister in law. She asked me yesterday. [00:23:00] She was like, are you finally starting to? See like that your life is better and, and I, I always answers honestly, like kinda, yeah, kinda, I'm not like all the way there yet, but I'm really grateful that I have this opportunity to build exactly the life I want, but there's still a huge part that's I can't believe that my old life is just over and I think for me to, you know, it happened really suddenly.
[00:23:27] Sonia: So I think that is part of it. And so, and I didn't have a lot of closure. And, and so yeah, for me, the biggest thing is that's changed is like my future is so uncertain. when I was married, I could predict where I would be in like five, 10 years. And now I don't even know where I'll be in six months and I'm leaning into it.
[00:23:48] Sonia: And it's a huge learning experience. And Yeah, I still struggle with it, I still will be like, what am I going to be doing in you know, six months? What are you doing in a year? But yeah, I'm a big [00:24:00] planner. And so I think that this is really teaching me to embrace that uncertainty. And I think that happens to a lot of people in loss is like you lose the anchor.
[00:24:09] Sonia: and for me, I lost the anchor to my old life. And so I just felt like I was floating.
[00:24:14] Kathleen: It's interesting, because I think I talk about this with clients a lot who have suffered losses at any kind of loss. We have a false perception that we can plan our lives.
[00:24:29] Sonia: hmm.
[00:24:32] Kathleen: that sudden happens, We then realize we have less control than we thought we had. and That can be really a hard thing to adjust to and realize, but actually it's quite liberating.
[00:24:47] Kathleen: Because if you realize that, if I look back and think at your marriage, at least from the outside, and for sure I would have thought that that marriage would have lasted, but nothing is actually [00:25:00] certain. And so you have to live life in that way and in the meaning, like meaning that embrace what you have in this moment and don't take it for granted because we actually don't know.
[00:25:13] Kathleen: None of us, even though we might think we know what is going to be happening in six months, we don't actually.
[00:25:19] Sonia: No, and for me, it was like, yeah, my marriage was so stable that the, the more stable it is when it, when it breaks or you lose it, the more, it shakes your, foundation,
[00:25:31] Kathleen: Mm
[00:25:33] Sonia: So I know I talked about the different feelings I have, but what are, what are the 5 stages of grief?
[00:25:40] Sonia: you have mentioned that they are a myth. Yeah.
[00:25:43] Kathleen: it, so a little bit of historical context. So I mentioned Elizabeth Kubler Ross, and she was, um, is very, very well known doctor who worked with patients who were dying. And Elizabeth Kubler Ross did a lot of [00:26:00] research on death and dying, and her five stages, which are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance, are actually, they were actually related to death and dying.
[00:26:12] Kathleen: This is, these are the stages of people who are terminally ill, for example, know they're dying. Um, and those are the stages that they go through. And what happened was that was Translated to those are the stages of grief. So the people who have experienced grief of those dying, let's say. And that's actually not how grief goes.
[00:26:36] Kathleen: It is not at all a stage thing. We don't go in different stages. We might experience the emotions of denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, but there are a huge rainbow of other emotions we're going to experience and not in a linear way. So. Unfortunately, even though Dr. Kubler Ross has done amazing [00:27:00] work in this space, how it's been portrayed, and apparently it was quite frustrating for her actually, when she was living by media, is that these are the stages of grief.
[00:27:10] Kathleen: And what happens with that is that if people are not experiencing them, or are not experiencing a pain, certain progression of their emotions, they may think they're grieving wrong, they may think something's wrong with them, they may think that,that they're not able to process, um, when actually there's really, really a wide spectrum of what grief looks like, and it will be different for everybody.
[00:27:38] Kathleen: Mm
[00:27:39] Sonia: So have you ever felt pressure to move through grief in a certain way?
[00:27:44] Sonia: Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, not from other people, but I, I put so much pressure on myself to get to the end. Um, and so I, I think you knew I would set these arbitrary milestones, like
[00:27:56] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:27:57] Sonia: next year I'm not going to cry on my anniversary. And [00:28:00] then if I do. Then I'm not hewing fast enough, or, I judge myself, like, why do I still feel like I'm being punched in the stomach when I think about, the fact that he cheated and why do I still have questions about the end of my marriage?
[00:28:16] Sonia: Even though we talk about it. We all know. I'm not getting the answers. Right? And I, at times I'm really at peace with it. I'm not getting the answers. I don't need them. I'm still gonna be able to move on. So I think that when I find myself going, it feels like I'm going backwards when I revisit things.
[00:28:38] Sonia: Right. And so I think, well, I already solved that, or I already have the explanation for that. It's time. and I think that revisiting or re litigating, is really tough for me. It makes me feel like I'm failing.
[00:28:52] Kathleen: Right. And so if you were, if you were following the five quote unquote stages of grief, then it would be like you were [00:29:00] failing, except that isn't how we grieve. And so you may be feeling something one day, and it could be two years later, and you're going to feel despair or, you know, anger two years later, like it doesn't move in a linear fashion.
[00:29:16] Sonia: no. So, the depression piece or the whatever, the denial, Literally last week I was like sitting on my couch and I looked up to where like my ex used to have a standing this little standing desk and I swear to God there was a moment where I was like where'd this guy go?
[00:29:33] Kathleen: Mm
[00:29:34] Sonia: Like literally still have that, I can still feel that shock to this day and it's been years. Yeah.
[00:29:43] Kathleen: so given that, right, what do you define as normal when grieving? Because all I know is I feel abnormal all the time.
[00:29:54] Kathleen: Yeah, I think, I think the more we can say that the normal and I [00:30:00] don't even love the word normal, but the normal in grieving has a really, really, really huge spectrum. So basically. Normal can look for some people like they are okay, they maybe are not crying. Maybe they are not sad.
[00:30:20] Kathleen: And that can be tough for people too, because if they're like, wow, I'm not experiencing that. Is that not normal? Well, it could be normal. It could be normal for you where other people could be experiencing You know, not being able to get out of bed for quite some time, like having no joy in life, not feeling like they want to resume normal activities.
[00:30:42] Kathleen: And this could last for quite some time and that would still be normal. and so it is a wide spectrum. so in, in the diagnostic manual where We have like major psychiatric disorders, they have finally in the DSM 5, they have, have [00:31:00] included grief, but it's called complicated grief, and It's a more difficult one to diagnose and they're basically saying if you cannot function in life like you cannot function in life after a year after the death of someone close to you, then there may be an issue where you have maybe entered this phase of complicated grief. However, There are major grief experts that even will say that could be different for different people.
[00:31:34] Kathleen: So again, it's, there's a wide spectrum of what is normal.
[00:31:39] Sonia: So okay, let's change the word normal out for healthy and unhealthy. Then is there an unhealthy way to grieve?
[00:31:48] Kathleen: Uh, well, maybe turning to substances, but again, that would be You know, it happens, right? that does happen. People look for ways to cope. So I would say a [00:32:00] healthy way to grieve is to feel the pain and the pain can be exceptionally intense. and unhealthy is to numb it because I'm a, I'm a firm believer.
[00:32:11] Kathleen: And when we numb the pain, you're actually prolonging that very, very difficult stage, that acute stage of grief. And so it's going to come out at some point. So I think healthy is more feeling the grief, uh, really looking at what the emotions are, what supports can you get? How can you, how can you accept within yourself, show yourself self compassion for what is grief.
[00:32:42] Kathleen: And then the unhealthy is trying to numb it with something.
[00:32:45] Sonia: Hmm. That makes sense. Are there any grief responses that you think are stigmatized but should be normalized?
[00:32:53] Kathleen: Yeah, I think there's two specific ones that come to mind, and I'm sure there's many more. But, [00:33:00] in North America, in more western cultures, We don't really outwardly mourn. So there's a difference between grief and mourning. Grief is the process of grieving. Mourning is outwardly displaying your grief. And you'll see in some cultures when someone dies, there's like screaming, wailing, like really outward expressions of grief.
[00:33:25] Kathleen: And I think in many Western cultures, that's like taboo. So, it's uncomfortable for people to witness mourning. And I wish that was more normalized. I wish that outward expression of grief was more normalized. And then I also think the length of time that People grieve. I really wish that was normalized.
[00:33:52] Kathleen: So when I was working at a hospice, I did a lot of bereavement care. And one of the most common things I heard [00:34:00] was, well, it's been two months or it's been six months and I should be okay by now. And I've had family members telling me like, I need to get on with it and I need to snap out of it. And I just, I wish that that could be normalized.
[00:34:14] Kathleen: That it's, it's a, Grief doesn't end. you just learn to live with it.
[00:34:20] Sonia: Yeah, that makes sense. I know So, I have seen at like Indian funerals, the wailing, and it is shocking. It is a shock to, the North American system of your body,
[00:34:32] Kathleen: For sure. You're not used to seeing it.
[00:34:35] Sonia: Yeah, and it, and you're like, what are these people? so what is it they get from that morning?
[00:34:41] Sonia: Do you think there's a release? Do you think that it's, okay.
[00:34:44] Kathleen: gosh, such a release.When I think back to my grief around my divorce, like I remember wailing inside, like not outside, but I remember, but see, look at me just saying that. No, I wouldn't ever do it
[00:34:57] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:34:58] Kathleen: but I remember [00:35:00] just like wailing, wailing, wailing. And it's such a release to get it out.
[00:35:04] Kathleen: And yeah, I wish we did that. I wish we did that.
[00:35:08] Sonia: Oh my God. I can feel it. I remember wailing.
[00:35:10] Kathleen: Yeah. Wailing. Mm hmm.
[00:35:13] Sonia: I need to get a good whale in.
[00:35:17] Kathleen: So Kathleen, how do you manage conflicting emotions during grief, like relief or guilt? I know, I know this isn't similar, but like when, when my dog died,There was like this sense, right? Of relief. And then I felt so guilty about feeling that. So how do you manage that?
[00:35:39] Kathleen: I think knowing that that is so, so normal, just normalizing it. Like also when my dad died, he had been sick for a long time. He didn't have a great quality of life anymore. one moment I would feel relief that he was free from that. And then the next moment I would just be gutted, like wanting him [00:36:00] back, wanting him back, you know, and that's still the case.
[00:36:02] Kathleen: That's still the case. And I think it's knowing two things can exist at the same time. Emotions wildly different emotions can exist at the same time. So you can feel joy and sadness. within the same moment, I feel joy and happiness that I had such amazing times with my father, but I also feel grief that those, those times are no more.
[00:36:30] Kathleen: So I think it's really understanding that conflicting emotions that are all over the place. It's totally normal for grief.
[00:36:38] Sonia: Yeah, that makes sense. So, how do you approach offering support to someone who's grieving, and especially somebody who's grieving sober? So, for example, don't be like, Hey, come over for a glass of wine.
[00:36:52] Kathleen: Right. So, so understanding that I think the, the approach, offering support to someone who's grieving [00:37:00] while they're sober is similar. If they're not sober, minus the, let's not have a bottle of wine and drink about it. but really. Really being there to offer support if they are someone who goes to meetings, offering to go with them to a meeting to help get them to go to a meeting.
[00:37:17] Kathleen: If that's something that's part of their practice, it might mean, you know, helping them with some of their daily tasks or tools. let's say exercise is a big deal for them in their sobriety. Well, maybe you go for a walk together. Um, it's really about. It is about your presence like the, I can't stress this enough. It is about being present. That's how you really help someone grieve, whether that's through a phone call or, them or sending them something. It is really about that. They know that you are there. And, and the one piece I would really say that is huge is. two weeks after a funeral, let's say if there is a funeral or, you know, after a couple of weeks, [00:38:00] most people just fade away.
[00:38:01] Kathleen: They don't support the grieving person anymore. So continuing to be there and offering your support is, is really important.
[00:38:10] Sonia: how do you think we can hold space for someone without pushing them to move on?
[00:38:15] Sonia: Yeah, I mean, I think people just need to be heard without interruptions or solutions. And I think for some of us, it's, it's really hard, right? Not to give advice and not to like interrupt. And I have this tendency to, to like, try to, um, like connect and be like, Oh, I went through something similar. You don't have to do that.
[00:38:38] Sonia: Right? and really every situation is different. And so I think just being like a nonjudgmental listener and validating their feelings, rather than minimizing the pain. I also have this problem is like, I'm always pointing out a silver lining. Don't have to do that. I think that you can just acknowledge that their [00:39:00] grief deserves respect and time.
[00:39:02] Sonia: And yeah, remind them there's no rush and that there's no right and wrong way to grieve. And, and one thing we've both seen is like grief comes in waves. Right. And so just like you said, like you need to be there past the first month or two, because even a year later you can have like a wave and, and your, person should know they can come to you for support.
[00:39:24] Sonia: So how do you recognize when someone needs space versus direct support,
[00:39:31] Kathleen: you ask them, you ask them because think sometimes we get mixed up with our own discomfort around death and what someone else may need. So the natural thing will be like, well, I just thought you needed space. And it's like, no, you actually needed space from the uncomfortable feelings that come with death death, but that person actually didn't need space. So. Ask [00:40:00] them, do you need space right now or do you need me to support you? So my, my best friend, like literally the day my dad died, actually it was the day, the day after the day after that, she said to me, she would text first and she would say, Hey, I want to call you. Do you need space right now? Or can I call you?
[00:40:21] Kathleen: And I. the first day said I needed space. The second day I was like, please call me. And the third day, please call me. And she just asked,
[00:40:31] Kathleen: she just
[00:40:31] Sonia: I wish I had done that. I think that's great. So have you and my other sister in law and my other sister in law is, is like a caller. but yeah, I get that. it does, it does make a difference.
[00:40:43] Sonia: Right.
[00:40:43] Kathleen: It really does. It does make a difference.
[00:40:46] Sonia: So what resonated with you today?
[00:40:49] Kathleen: I guess more and more, I, as I'm still in the grief process I'm learning more and more how people really don't, Know what to do [00:41:00] in death. And I think I, I take for granted that I, I have some comfort around death. Um, just given what I do and also, working at a hospice and also my personal beliefs, I, I have some comfort around it and it's really a thing that people are not comfortable with.
[00:41:20] Kathleen: And I guess just more and more, and even through this episode, like I come to. Realize that you have to be more direct. So, for example, with us, I mean, I told you, I, I didn't feel like I got what I needed from you
[00:41:36] Sonia: Yeah,
[00:41:37] Kathleen: in the, the throes of my dad's death. And I should have been more direct about what I needed.
[00:41:45] Sonia: I should have asked. that's a huge thing. I mean, I'm learning that too in, in life, right? In all relationships is you have to ask
[00:41:55] Sonia: what you need, but you also have to ask people what they need. And I think [00:42:00] when somebody is grieving, it's, you have to ask them what they need.
[00:42:04] Kathleen: Mm-Hmm.
[00:42:05] Kathleen: Well, thank you so much for listening to sisters in sobriety and we will see you next week.
[00:42:09] Sonia: I