MCU Need to Know | What if...? Killmonger Review S1E6: Knight in Shining Camouflage + Special Guest Friend Daniel

Show Notes

This week's episode of What If takes us to the start of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and asks what would happen if the hero who started it all never became the hero we know. Friend Daniel also joins us this week to break down what it means to have Killmonger alter the course of the MCU as we know it!

If you're looking to have what we've seen in episode six of What If...? discussed, you're in the right place! Each week we'll be breaking down the latest stories in the MCU beat by beat by discussing what works, what doesn't, and what it all means.

The episode in review is called, What If...Killmonger Rescued Tony Stark? It was written by Matthew Chauncey and directed by Bryan Andrews.

We're also joined by the universal constant, Friend Daniel this week, to talk What If and the MCU at large! We briefly touch on Hawkeye and Shang-Chi but don't delve too far into spoilers!

We also continue the trend this week with breaking the episode down into three acts rather than most important topics. We follow along in pretty sequential chunks of the recent episode.

This episode remains spoiler free until around the 11 minutes and 6 seconds mark! It's also important to note that given the recency and limited access of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, it is exempt from the spoiler zone this week as well!

Transcripts are available on the episode's page here! The transcripts are generated through Descript.

Don't forget you can follow us on Twitter or Instagram to let us know what you think about What If...? or this episode! We're also sharing extra end tags not used in the episode, so if you want more extras, follow us below!

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Instagram: @MCUNeedtoknow

If you'd like to join our discord you can find that here:
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If you want to follow Jude you can find them here!
Twitter: @Jhubbit
Instagram: @Jhubbit

If you want to follow Trey you can find them here!
Twitter: @TheTapStream
Instagram:@TheTapStream
www.thetapstream.com

Also would like to give a special thanks to Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song! You can find more of his work here!

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SoundCloud: Music

Want more of our podcast? Check out our website for more episodes and news!

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This episode was recorded with Remotely.fm and edited by Jude.

Creators & Guests

Host

Jude (Hubbit)

Catholic | Still trying to make sense of things | Co-host of @MCUNeedtoKnow Podcast | mcuneedtoknow@gmail.com

Host

Trey Solis

One day I woke up painfully aware of my existence and I’ve been apologizing for it ever since.

What is MCU Need to Know?

The MCU Need to Know is a podcast dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to know! Hosted by Trey and Jude.

Trey: Hello and welcome back to another
episdoe of, MCU Need to Know, a podcast

dedicated to the Marvel cinematic
universe and everything you need to know.

I'm Trey

Jude: I'm Jude.

How you doing?

Trey: Well, Jude, I'm excited
because today we get to defy the TVA

themselves and bridge the multi-verse.

Whether it's hosting MCU Need to Know
with Leech in one universe or joining

us here to chat Marvel in this one,
the universal friend, Daniel is back.

Welcome back, Daniel.

Friend Daniel: Thank you for having
me back guys crossing the threshold,

Jude: creating nexus event.

Friend Daniel: Next is event.

Trey: Yeah, watch out.

Would it be a spoiler?

The TVA's gone.

There's no nexus event.

We can get

Friend Daniel: wild.

It wasn't, it wasn't ultimately
it wasn't an alternate universe.

Cause I, I, earlier, when I was
prepping for the, for the show, I

was like, man, I just did this for.

For episode one, but it was like, wait,
that wasn't, that wasn't for this show.

Wait a second.

I had like this weird moment.

Cause it was, it was not like I
wasn't talking to Trey and Chu.

So I had this weird moment.

Trey: Yeah.

Oh man.

That's so funny that at
three for a loop a bit.

Well, yeah, it has been since that
episode, since you've been on, I think

at this point, this has been your
fourth appearance on the podcast.

So at this point, the audience
is fairly familiar with your

experience with the MCU.

So I thought the best place we could
start here at the top of the episode is

just kind of a general impressions of
some of the new things that we've got.

So we got the Hawkeye trailer this past
Monday at the time of the recording,

as well as a new movie with Shung.

G have you gotten a chance
to see any of these?

Friend Daniel: have, um, I was able
to watch the Hawkeye trailer when.

It is funny.

So I initially watched it without
sound cause I was on at work

and, um, it just, it didn't, it
translated really goofy and weird.

And I was like, and then I later
I think I chatted with you Jude.

And then when I, when I went back
and watched it with the sound, the

music, it's not silly at all, the
music was, had this cool, like ominous

tone and then cut with the jokes.

It was great.

So I'm very excited about Hawkeye, more
excited than I thought it would be.

I think Jude, I said to you, like,
if it felt like jingle all the way.

Yes.

But that was before I watched it
with sound, you know, and I was

like, what is this Christmas show?

Like, come on.

And then I went back and watched it
with sound and I was like, it reminds

me, I was reminded of how good of an
actor Jeremy Renner is and how much I

feel like he he's been under utilize.

By the MCU and like, that's fair
because there are so many, there's

so many stories you can tell.

Um, and now he gets his chance,
but it just reminded me of all

the good roles I've seen him
in and I've always liked them.

Yeah.

And then I did Trey.

I was able to see Sean
Chichi in the theater.

So I was fortunate to go to,
uh, a kind of very low turnout

group with my wife and a friend.

And that was.

Just phenomenal.

I really, really enjoyed it.

I think that if, if you've seen movies
like hero or house of flying daggers,

or definitely crouching tiger, hidden
dragon, and you enjoyed those, you'll see.

Some resonances there, but it's
definitely got the, uh, the,

the MCU twist and it's fresh.

So, um, I'll leave it there cause I
know not everyone's able to see it yet.

And so it's, it's gonna, it'll it'll,
it'll eventually jump up on Disney plus.

So, um, I'm sure once you do that,
we'll be able to talk more about

it, but I really, really enjoyed it.

Jude: Well, Trey left out
the Spiderman trailer.

Trey: I was buying.

Yeah.

What'd you think of
the Spider-Man trailer?

Friend Daniel: I mean, it was bananas.

I mean, just it's this
it's like what's going on.

So, I mean, I don't, I don't
like to dissect trailers

because it'll either send you.

Rabbit holes and the internet that
could possibly reveal actual spoilers,

or you'll just like speculate on stuff.

And I'm not too big on that, you
know, I like to experience it

and then kind of forget about it.

Yeah.

And so like, I didn't, I didn't watch the,
uh, the Eternals trailer, the second one.

I never watched that and
I was forced to watch it

Trey: theater.

Friend Daniel: I was like, ah, man.

But I was, I was excited to see it.

So I was like, oh yeah.

Oh, well, you know, I guess I'll watch it.

But, um, so yeah, so I'm, I'm
nervous about any more Spider-Man

trailers, but I love Spider-Man.

He's one of my, one of my top five
characters and very interested

to see what's up with Dr.

Strange in that trailer.

Yeah, he don't seem right.

Jude: There is.

Trey: I think off is the
perfect way to put it.

I think that was something juvenile
zoned in on when we did our reaction.

And I thought, like I thought maybe
we were doing our grains of sand thing

again, and it was very comforting to
like get on the internet the next day.

And everybody's like, oh, that's not him.

Like everybody was on the same
page that that's not straight.

Yeah.

It's

Jude: totally off.

Totally off.

Well, my theory, my theory from the, what
if was like, oh, this is how we're getting

the no way home doctor strange, but then
the whole reality collapsed on them and it

was like, okay, I don't think he served.

Friend Daniel: think he survived.

Like it just exists in a pocket, right?

Trey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

The weight of his responsibility.

It's not too dark.

No, there's one thing the MCU is
known for its its chippy nature.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: That's DC territory.

Jude: Oh man.

Well cool.

Thank you.

It could have been slow-mo.

Trey: Well, cool.

Thank you so much for
sharing that with us.

But of course, if you downloaded
this episode, you know that we're

going to be talking about season one,
episode six of what if entitled, what

if Killmonger rescued Tony stark?

So the way we do this, as
we're going to have some pre

spoiler thoughts followed by.

A audio cue, which will bring us into
the spoiler zone where we'll break

down the episode into three acts.

So before we get there, we're going to
talk about our priest, boiler thoughts.

So Daniel, if we can start with
you, what are your pre spoiler

thoughts for this episode?

Friend Daniel: Okay.

I, I watched it twice and when I
watched it the first time I enjoyed

it, I was excited for the episode
and I was excited to see Killmonger.

And I thought the, uh, the music really
took me back to the, the beats of the

story that, that, that comes out in that.

And then, um, I'm still, I, I
watched the second time, I'm still

processing it and I'm doing my little
critical, critical lens things.

So, but I'll leave it that
I D I definitely enjoyed it.

And, uh, we'll, we'll see, as we
unpack it, what, what more I can

Trey: say.

What about

Jude: you, Jude?

I am, we did on the first watch.

I still enjoyed it on the second
watch, but I think I understand.

Better, uh, what you mean tray of
what you, what you've said about

episodes you've liked and not liked.

And I think I kind of understand
that a little better and I

can't free spoiler thoughts.

Can't get into that, uh, in
detail, right at the moment.

Yeah.

And tray.

Trey: So, uh, we shared on social media,
some of our quick, uh, day of priest,

boiler thoughts, and I, and I essentially
said that I liked the stories that

stray the furthest from what we know.

And unfortunately this
episode is not that.

And so I've been thinking about
that a lot in terms of this episode,

as I did my subsequent viewings.

And I think at the heart of the issue
here is there is this inherent impulse

within the creation of the show itself
to retread familiar story beats.

And it does that instead
of being something new.

And I just.

Um, pre spoiler thoughts.

I was going to say something,
but I'm pulling back on that.

So I'll save it for the spoiler zone.

I just, I, I'm not connecting with it
on an emotional level because of the

framing of where it wants to be rather
than the potential of what it could be.

And so that's this episode, I think,
highlighted that the most for me so

far, this season, so, well, yeah,

Jude: I just it's okay.

It's okay.

You don't have to

Trey: like them all.

Yeah.

It was you right?

We were, we were in the
group message Daniel.

And you mentioned that if you
liked them all, it would make

you question your objectivity.

So I appreciate that comfort
last night before we recorded.

Friend Daniel: No, it's true.

It's true.

Jude: What am I?

My objectivity is coming into question.

No, it's not.

I don't like the second.

I didn't like the second episode.

Shame on you.

How dare you.

But that's what I mean, like
I understand more anyways.

Friend Daniel: I think, I think I, I
unlike so Trey, I think I have different,

different questions about it while
they might be the same problem, but I

generally enjoy the episodes that, uh,
like the name one tray that you were

talking about, like fits that mold.

Was it the, was it the, the who'd
done it episode, episode three,

Trey: the most and the.

Yes that strays the furthest, oh no, no,

Friend Daniel: no, no, no, no, no.

The ones that, I'm
sorry, I said that wrong.

The ones that like follow the
story, like the captain Carter

one like that one captain

Trey: Carter.

Okay.

The Nick fury episode.

This one, this one.

Okay.

Which as a correction, because I
tweeted out my personal record, the

episode so far I missed number them.

I said three, but I meant four.

I think the Dr.

Strange, even though it starts
at a familiar place eventually

gets to somewhere new.

So which honestly that's off the rails.

Yeah.

So, uh, yeah.

That's, I think that's just what
I'm looking for the most, because I

think if they try and just recreate
at best it's uncanny and at worst,

it just feels like a lesser version
of the story that we already saw.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

Well, I want to get into it.

So let's say.

All right.

Yeah.

Let's go ahead and make the sound.

Trey: So as Daniel alluded to,
you're going to hear an audio cure.

And on the other side, it's going
to be fair game for all spoilers

in the MCU except Shung cheap.

So we'll see you on the other side

and we're back.

So the way we're going to be doing this
as we're going to be breaking it down

into three acts, act one is going to start
from the beginning of the episode where

it starts with the familiarity of Ironman
one and Tony stark being under attack.

Except this time it is Erik
Killmonger who saves him.

And this will take us all the way
through the bunch mission to buy

more vibranium where Killmonger kills
roadie and to challah, but starting

with you, Daniel, is there anywhere
you'd like to start within this.

Friend Daniel: I just thought it was
for the hearing you write that summary

kind of made me feel the, I don't know
if it's what you felt like watching

the episode, but it's just like, it's
just like, there's a lot of contrivance

that, that forced moments, right.

Is that, is that what you're getting at?

Like there were these moments that, that
you could tell they wanted to get to.

And so they had to like jump through these
crazy hoops in order to make them happen.

And whereas in the episode with,
with Nick fury, Nick fury, as

the through line worked for me
for Killmonger, I don't know.

It, it, he, he, his character
was very consistent.

It's almost like what if Killmonger
had like completely succeeded

in his, in his, in his act?

And I was like, oh, that sucks.

Like, like, like he's a bad dude.

I mean, he's got the, he's
got the moral high ground.

I mean, w anyway, whenever we talked
about black widow, I've never been on

your pod talking about not black with a
black Panther, but I mean, it's like the

thing that, one of the things that makes
black Panther so compelling, um, was the,

the, the, the argument between to challah
and Killmonger, and that Killmonger had

kind of the, the, the better argument
in terms of involvement in the world.

But his methods were just horrifying.

And then the, the man is like,
he's just, he's soulless, you know?

I mean, he just, he's, he's smiling
in one, on one hand, and then he's

literally killing you in the next breath.

Um, because you're a means to end.

Yeah, I felt that, but the deepest,
when he, when he took roadie

out, I was really sad about that.

That really, really made me sad.

I was also sad about to challah,
but I, um, I don't know why, cause

I kinda, it kinda wrote itself.

It was like, yeah, obviously he's going to
kill, kill roadie now, but I don't know.

I kind of jumped all over the place, but,

Jude: well, okay.

It's interesting because up until
up until the point that he basically

abandoned roadie in my head on
the first watch, I was thinking.

That this was, we're seeing Killmonger
go in a different direction.

Yeah.

Almost like a redemption or, you know,
this is what's going to happen because

he met up with stark and then once he
abandoned roadie, it kind of clicked.

He was like, okay.

You know, he's who he is.

Yeah.

And I guess if I had to have a
complaint, sorry, tray, if I had have

a complaint to where, and sometimes I
think it works for the episode and then

sometimes it doesn't is what, what,
like with the first, uh, the first

episode Steve Rogers or Steve Rogers.

And even though we didn't get the serum,
he was still Steve Rogers, like in

character and values and that, whereas Dr.

Strange, they changed him
and that's what drove.

Yeah.

And so sometimes like, I guess
my expectation is watching.

It is like, oh, Killmonger has changed.

He was like, no, he still
who we know him to be.

And until I think that.

Not off-putting, but kind of
difficult and thinking about,

what am I, what am I seeing here?

Trey: Yeah.

I think I'm kind of in this similar space
with you, there was a specific quote that

stood out to me only your first watch
and even more so in subsequent ones.

And it's from the watcher.

And it's, I think during the press
conference where Tony is talking about

how he's going to be bigger and better
weapons and whatnot, the watcher chimes in

with though, the man was saved, a hero was
lost and a villain was given a new chance.

And that line stuck out to me because
I thought, okay, here's the trade off?

We don't have iron man, but the line
of villain was given a new chance.

I thought, okay, we're going to see
a story where the proximity of this

relationship is what alters the course
of Killmonger, but it really doesn't.

And that pacing from then on.

After, after a brief beginning of
the second act, we're not there

yet, but after a brief, beginning of
the second act, the pacing of both

movies just kind of are the same.

And I do want to say to
lead into my next point.

It's so fitting that you're on this
episode with us Daniel, because a few

weeks ago we were having a conversation.

And one of our group threads about,
I personally am not a fan of stories

where the villain is the protagonist.

I think there are examples where it
can be done well, and I do like it,

but it's rare for me to get into that.

And so placing this episode where, like
you said, what if Killmonger succeeded?

It just, it doesn't feel like it even,
it doesn't feel like it has the pace to

really examine the ramifications of that.

And so what's left.

Is this awkward feeling of
an unimpeded Killmonger?

Yeah.

Jude: Yeah.

Well, and if you see some of
the stuff going on and I know.

Uh, various opinions on venom.

Um,

Friend Daniel: but that's
what we were talking

Jude: about.

Yeah.

Well, okay.

But that's the thing.

They tried to make venom
likable, and it's Tom Hardy.

So you, he can pull it off sort of,
and with Killmonger, they didn't try

to make him likable or, or the scenes
that he was likable was all calculated

just to get his way as manipulative.

And so when you see that part of
the episode, I think it's, uh,

that much heavier or heartbreaking.

Friend Daniel: I also think that
the, whereas the other, the other

episodes, even, even the, um, the Dr.

Strange episode past.

A good balance of levity in the way that
MC movies do you like the, the troll,

like just absorbing like a little evil

Trey: troll

Friend Daniel: is absurd, but it was like
the writers, like how can we bring, drop

a joke when like you've got this crazy
man absorbing all this demonic power or

whatever in this, there was just, no,
there was no, the only comedic humor, the

only kind of, um, levity was, was Tony
and Tony, you know, Ironman, Tony stark

was like, not the greatest, you know,
like all his jokes were like, like I'm a

big jerk and you know, I'm a ladies man.

And so it was like, back then, it
was like, it, it, it, it made sense.

And it was funny.

And also we kind of watched
him go through this, this story

arc, but like just have it.

That was, he, he kind of became
very flat and one dimensional.

And then, and then even
as he was trying to.

Yeah.

I think that the one place where maybe
this could be like, there is the, there

is the, the, the, the racial critique that
is either implicitly or explicitly present

in Killmonger his direction, you know,
his he's, um, he's trying to reclaim his,

his, uh, his birthright, but he's also on
a, on a quest to, to, you know, liberate

and, and there's something real in that.

Um, and it comes out in the, in the scene.

Well, this is the second act, so I'm
sorry, but it's like, it's, it's,

it's the scene where he says to Tony,
like, if you don't see the difference

within us, that's the difference.

Um, and it's, it's very, it's very much
right there on the surface, but I feel

like, at least from my perspective, it is.

It didn't, it wasn't shot through the
episode in the same way that black Panther

it was, there was a coherence, right.

It was a coherent moral, that made sense

Jude: so well, and I think in that
way, and I think Trey's mentioned it.

Oh, and which episode?

Hmm.

Now I'm not sure which episode
Trey's referring to was referring to.

Uh, but it basically mentioned
it about, because we have the

familiarity with these characters.

It's kind of taking advantage of that.

Like, like we know that.

Kill bonkers goal drive,
why he's doing these things.

Right.

And so it kind of lets the writers
maybe make that assumption that,

Hey, I can, there's a, there's
already a built-in knowledge.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: And we are here an
example of where that worked really

well in an unexpected way was with in
the Star-Lord episode, because it was

like how, because I was seeing Peter
Quill and I'm like, ah, man is to

challah going to be like Peter Quill.

And he was to challah and it was
like the universe, the galaxy was

this peaceful place because he was
to challah and the galaxy and I was

like, this is, so this is so great.

And it's just like, it's like,
yeah, he's challah and this,

this it didn't, I don't know.

It didn't click with me.

Maybe it's what you said, Trey, about the
villain being the protagonist, because

it's a different kind of a story and.

Yeah, well, you know,

Trey: to play off what you say, cause
you, you pulled that line from the

middle of the episode of the difference
between you and me is you can't see the

difference between you and me and that
on its own is an extraordinary line.

I like that line a lot, but the PR
like black Panther did it better.

Like that movie resolved, evolves
around that entire premise.

And this, this episode doesn't
have the length or the pacing

or the pieces to make that work.

And so what the premise is, what if
Eric Killmonger rescued Tony, start

it abandons that premise and it just
wants to do the Killmonger thing.

And so it's like an incomplete
story that they're dealing with.

Now you talked about the.

The movie leveraging
our familiar knowledge.

I think one way, where
does work in this episode.

So it just, so I'm not completely beaten
this episode, the whole time is there's

a bit of misdirect that they have going
on with Tony, where during that press

conference, you see him start to grow
really solemn about all that he saw after

somebody asked him if he learned anything
and you expect him to kind of have a

similar space that he does an iron man.

But instead the answer is we're going
to be big, bigger, and better build more

weapons, or we're going to protect our
people and realize he hasn't been humbled.

And so they have little moments
like that, where they play on it.

Cause like, I think
there's another moment.

It's like, what if we miniaturize the
arc reactor now that would never work.

And so like they are playing, they are
playing a little bit with the familiarity

of Tony, but it's just not enough.

The, the one last thing I would
have to put in this, playing off the

familiarity, there is a scene wherever
Tony and Killmonger are working on the

piloting or they're working on the.

As Tony called it, the Gundam
and Tony mentioned the line

human pilots mean human error.

And I thought it was a very interesting
line coming from him in this universe

because everything he did for
sure, in those first two movies was

realizing the responsibility of the
power and how in the wrong hands,

that power like it has to be him.

He's the only one that can
control this because he's

learned what that power means.

And he's insecure in this
because his reasoning is

human pilots meet human error.

Like he doesn't even trust himself
still because he never went through

those trials of the first movie.

So I thought that was
an interesting place.

They were playing with familiarity.

Friend Daniel: And I mean, the
expectation is that we're, we're

getting an Ironman story with, with
Killmonger in it, but it's actually.

It's Killmonger story.

Right?

One, one thing.

Cause I don't Trey I'm with you.

I mean like you all know, I don't,
I get really, I usually get really

testy with you guys when you're
all dumping on stuff in here.

I am dumping on it.

Trey: come on to have a seat
it's real warm to be a, to B,

Friend Daniel: to B to come
at this a little differently.

It's like, I think from a, from a,
what I like about earlier the earlier

episodes is that especially the zombie
one, so a balanced this like goofy

horror kind of shocking things with
these moments of levity levity, and

then these, these really beautiful
moments of interpersonal connection.

That we all like you all talked about.

And I thought that that kind of brought
it home and balance it out well.

And that this episode from a, from
a storytelling perspective, I feel

like they were trying to like Trey,
you were saying they were trying

to fit, fit into these beats.

So, so they're trying to force it
so quickly that they didn't have

time to sit and create those moments
of, of, um, of humanity, uh, where

you were able to, to feel that.

And maybe, I mean, maybe they were there.

I just didn't, I didn't connect with them
in the same way as I did with like all the

other episodes I've liked every episode up
until now I can rank them, but like, I can

point to specific moments in each of the
episodes where I, where it clicked for me.

And I felt like I understood
what it was trying to say.

Whereas this one it's basically
saying what, like you said, like

what black Panther was saying.

I mean, it's, it's not, I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean, at the end, the end.

So for me, I think I texted Texas
used you that the end was really

the only thing that saved it.

So, uh, it made it, I was like,
okay, I can get on board with this.

I don't know.

And I know I'm jumping all

Trey: around.

Well, you know, I definitely will have
something to say once we get to the end.

And I think we, I think we're a
lot closer on this episode than

we thought going into a day.

So, uh, I'm excited to get to that,
but, uh, unless we got any more, we do

Jude: have one question for you guys.

Go ahead.

Um, now again, I said, I liked it and I
do like it, but I think everything you're

saying a very valid there's, there's
clearly some issues I had with it as well.

But one of the things that, that really
I didn't like, and I don't know why

I'm curious if y'all didn't like it.

I don't think I liked seeing.

The I am iron man in game
scene with the alternate

Trey: voice, 100% red flag.

It's like, why did they do that?

I saw that.

And I went, I, in my head,
I went, oh, I'm scared.

Jude: And I don't dislike
the alternate voice.

I think he's doing a good job.

Right.

And that's probably, it's a
tough gig to have, um, replacing,

you know, Robert Downey Jr.

As Tony stark.

I was really surprised
that used that line.

Friend Daniel: It was an

Trey: interesting choice now.

And I do think there, there is some
credit there because I, again, I've,

I've been pretty hard on this episode,
the, the voice actor for Tony stark,

I think doesn't have phenomenal job.

He did a great job of capturing that
mannerism of Tony, but that line in

particular, that moment is so iconic.

You're throwing them to the
wolves to try and recreate that.

And it wasn't necessarily like I get
the point that they're trying to make,

but it just, I think you, you have the
same point showing iron man among the

other vendors in that famous New York
scene where you don't have to have the

line and you still get the idea of like,
okay, this was this grand hero, but yeah.

It just, yeah, it, it, it,
it didn't, it wasn't great.

Jude: Yeah.

So, and I will say the big thing that
I did enjoy out of this first act.

I thought the writing for stark was
pretty spot on in what you were saying.

He wasn't humbled and I'm like,
yeah, that's exactly what stark

would have done in that situation.

Like, to me, it made complete sense
of like, yeah, you're going to make

him COO, you know, you're going
to, Hey, let's, let's get your

science fair project and do this.

Like, like that's the, in
that way, it didn't bother me.

Cause it, it made to me, it made sense
of like, no, he didn't go through this.

He wasn't humbled.

And because of that, he still had that
arrogant cockiness that played through.

And so to me, I liked, you
know, seeing that the whole.

What would stark have been like,
had he not had his cave moment,

Trey: right.

Yeah.

And you know, it's interesting too,
because one of the notes I wrote, I

was going to say for, for straight
thought, but I'll, I'll bring it

up here to play in that space.

You know, you, you talked about
that moment of him in the cave,

being humbled, becoming the
man who would become iron man.

I never thought about like, he
just built the suit in the cave.

He was a tinkerer long before.

And maybe that's like wrong of you
to say as much as I praise Ironman

three for showing us that he was
always that, but I never visualize

what it was like before the cave.

And so whenever Killmonger and Tony are
hanging out in his garage and you see

the UI interface for Jarvis and all his
equipment, I was like, oh yeah, this is,

this is what he would have been doing.

Had it not been for that moment, he
would have been back to building stuff.

Jude: Yeah.

Yeah.

There was a nice call back
to iron man to actually,

Trey: in what way?

Jude: What was that?

When, when Killmonger showed them.

And he came and he blew up the rain
to look at the elements and it had

that globe look, that was the same
little a, you know, um, holographic

imaging Jarvis did when he was looking
at, um, palladium from, you know, his

Trey: dad.

That's a nice catch.

Yeah.

Oh,

Friend Daniel: wouldn't wouldn't.

I think my, one of my students
wrote, so, so this takes place.

What, eight, uh, eight years before the
events of black Panther is that right?

Trey: Uh, it would've been around
2008, which is when iron man came

Friend Daniel: out.

And when did black Panther come out?

Trey: 2017?

Think it was 20 16, 20 17,

Jude: the February before and finish.

Trey: And that would've been 2018

Jude: because, because, because,
yeah, cause the CAG was, uh, Bucky

getting his, uh, uh, his arm.

Friend Daniel: So this is like a nerdy
nitpick, but like how old are they?

How old is the challah and
how old is Kevin Killmonger?

They look the same

Jude: age.

My cousin all texted me
and he figured it out.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

He made, he basically said that, okay.

A Shuri was around like the 10, 11 years
old at the time of say Ironman and what

we see here and that would have put her
in, like her twenties come black Panther.

And so Killmonger into challah
should have been in their thirties.

And Killmonger, I think was, it was 1992.

And he was around the eight ish age.

Yeah.

When at the beginning of black Panther.

Gotcha.

Which would have, which would have
put them around their twenties.

At the time of 2008.

Trey: Yeah.

Okay.

So it's, it's plausible, that's feasible.

Jude: Which, which, I mean, I'm glad,
you know, my cousin he's like figured

it out and texted me all that, you
know, and that also then you go to the

w like, what is the, what if episodes?

And what's the purpose.

If it's an alternate thing, does it
have to fit the timeline that precisely.

Right.

And I guess it depends on
how you're watching this.

If you're watching this, oh, I'm
watching iron man and the main

thing and it deviates and some other
universe then yet it needs to match up.

But if you're watching, it is like, oh,
this is just familiar knowledge for, as a

base and something completely different.

I'm not sure it has to
completely match up.

Yeah.

Because now you're talking what to Sharla
and Quill are roughly the same way.

Trey: Yeah, I think, cause I think
that was the Genesis of them wanting

to do that episode was like realizing
they were the same age and they're

like, Hey, we could do something here.

Friend Daniel: And then last,
last, last little point that I was

very happy about in this episode
was that Don Cheadle is Roddy.

Yeah.

Trey: Very happy with that.

What an entrance to, with the way
the glass like closes and you see

a Roddy's reflection again, for all
the grapes I have with this series,

the F like the way they frame shots
has been really phenomenal this year.

Oh,

Jude: I thought it was so awesome
to hear Andy circus his voice again.

Trey: Yeah.

Which speaking of, I think that'll go
ahead and transition us into act two,

which this is going to take us from
Tony stark, realizing what Killmonger

has done all the way to the Wakandans
accepting Killmonger as one of their own.

So dude, if we could start
with you this time, uh, what

stuck out to you in act two?

Jude: So Trey, where I want to
start is what I was talking about

and the preschooler thoughts.

Cause I think this is what you mean
by hoping it will go further off in

a different direction because I feel
like in act two, I have a note that

says at this point it becomes a cross
between iron man, two in black Panther,

where you have the unmanned drones that
you get from, you know, Right, right.

Or is it

Trey: vanco?

Ivan.

Vanco.

Yeah.

Jude: You know, the
black Panther storyline.

And it's essentially those two
movies kind of collapsed together.

And in that way, yeah.

It's not venturing off into new ground.

One of the things I've really enjoyed
about the whatever episodes is

that feeling of I'm truly watching
something I'm familiar with.

And I see that detour.

And so that's, I think part of what
made me like this episode, but in this

second act psych, and I think, and I
really liked what y'all said about okay.

It felt like we're going to see
iron man, but really it's just

about Killmonger at that point.

Once they got rid of iron man, then it
was like, okay, what do we do with these.

Things and, and so, yeah,
like that converging.

So while I liked the episode, I think
that helped me understand why you

didn't like or what you didn't like
about those episodes versus the ones

that took a, uh, a bigger step out.

Friend Daniel: Um, I have a question
when claw shows up in the, the

first time we see him, is that
in, um, what movie is that in?

It's not a black Panther, right?

Okay.

Yeah.

So that whole scene is
very ageable Trump, right?

Yeah.

See, there we go.

So it's again.

It's okay.

So it's, it's like, it's even out of order
tray, like it's, it's like it's, it's,

um, it's, it's rehearsing or reenacting
these scenes from, from the films.

Um, so this kind of tracks with.

I'm just confused by the, so I'm not even,
like I told him, I said I enjoyed it the

first time, but the more I think about it,
I'm just confused about what it's saying

or what, what it's, what it's doing.

Whereas like Peggy
Carter was clear as day.

I mean, it was just very
clear what it was doing.

Star-Lord clear zombies clear.

I mean, it's, it's zombies are pretty,
you know, it's like superheroes zombies.

That was great.

And then, um, uh, Dr.

Strange, very clear,
Nick fury, very clear.

It was like, it was like, you know,
what, if we lose the heroes, we

basically get to see Trey was your
point veggie basically to see phase

one from, from Nick Fury's perspective.

I thought that was awesome, even
though it was all different.

Um, this, this was, I'm just not,
I don't know what the through line

is and I, I don't know if watching
it more as helping me or talking

about it more as helping me see

Trey: it.

You know, if I can meet the episode
halfway, and if I can play in the space

that you are talking about, Jude about
like seeing where it deviates that

fight between Tony and Killmonger.

I think that's what should have
been the core of this episode

and the fact that that happens.

And Tony has done away with within
like the first half of the episode.

I think that's where the episode
abandoned its premise because.

It is this mashup of
Ironman and black Panther.

And when it gets rid of the
Ironman aspect of it, then you

lose your what if perspective?

And so the closest, I got to feeling
like connected with what the episode was

doing was that fight, but we just didn't
spend nearly enough time with Tony and

Killmonger to feel that fallout happen.

And at least for me personally
get invested in it, but it,

I like that impulse there.

It just, it came way too
early in the episode for me.

Yeah.

Jude: Well, I'm wonder I'm a
good employee in that space.

I wonder if in, I wonder if in the writing
that it initially felt like a good idea.

And they got to that point.

And then they were like,
oh, we have 15 minutes left.

Um, but I, I mean, cause I, I mean,
I see what you're saying, right?

Like, like it's, it's you put
these two characters together

and that gets resolved here.

Yeah.

Rather than in the end.

Yeah.

And I guess, honestly, I think this is,
I, I don't know if I would have liked it.

I, I think I would've
liked it less that way.

Cause, cause if in the end that's
what the resolving fight was.

And you have Killmonger when you
don't get to see what's next.

Yeah.

Or you have to have Tony
win that battle, you know,

Friend Daniel: or there's a draw.

I mean the one thing you say is there's.

And they fold it, they fold it into,
they fold them more explicitly into the

black Panther story, because I mean, in
a sense like the U S government's kind

of a stand in for Tony at that point.

So my brain's been
working this whole time.

You guys have been talking, so like,
if we're going to take Killmonger,

his words, you know, like the U
S and the U S government are the

oppressor and that's who Tony stark is.

Right.

So like, instead of letting the 10
runs capture him and do their thing,

he saves him because he's infiltrating
Tony instead of like, following along

and going along with that Killmonger
captured like, like ingratiates himself

with Tony in order to use him to.

He gets out of the jam because he
thinks he's got Tony fooled still in

tune is like, you can't fool me on.

So he gets out of the jam by killing
him and then manipulates the situation.

So you go take Wakanda, but the, the U
S government kind of has a stand in now

for, for what Tony represented in terms of

Trey: power.

Well, I mean, even if you take away
the humility that Tony eventually

gains in the movies and the prime
timeline, the us government was

constantly trying to get his weapons.

And so you can make an argument.

Cause I mean, him having that
confrontation with Killmonger.

Yeah.

Tony stark is, is not the greatest person
in the world, but he was a very thin,

but there was somewhat of a moral ground
when he was trying to stop kill monger.

And then when Killmonger gets rid of it,
The, the us government does what they were

trying to do, even in the prime timeline.

And it warps what Tony was trying
to do in either one of those

situations, if that makes sense.

So I get what you mean about it being
a stand in for Tony, because there's

even, I'm peeking ahead a little bit,
but we've, we've kind of been peeking

through on each act, even in that final
act where the us government of regret

arise, rise up with condom and they do
the trick to get the, the max inside.

And then they closed the shield.

Killmonger has that line.

It was like, ah, Tony stark, he must have
had a secret transmitter or something.

He's evil.

Jesus, he's a villain.

He's

Friend Daniel: a, he's a bill.

He's a true villain or something.

So like, okay, there's a through line.

Yeah.

Trey: So even there, they are using Tony
as like, even though he's gone, the, the,

the presence of him is still being used.

Yeah, but he's like a,

Friend Daniel: he's a star, he's a
stand in for the mites, you know?

Um, and I mean, what's that, what's
heartbreaking about it though,

is, is, this is my earlier point
about the, the moral high ground.

Is that even like, like the whole
reason why there was a conflict between,

between Wakanda and the United States
was because Killmonger had murdered

black Panther and Roddy and then made
it look like they killed each other.

So it's it's, I don't know.

Trey: Yeah.

I have one more point to make in this act.

And it, it I'll say this, you know, dude,
at the very start of this podcast, you and

I talked a lot about how villain, like the
hero is as great as their villain because

the villain and bodies, the challenge
that the hero is trying to overcome.

And it was interesting that despite
me not liking this episode, it

was an exercise in showing how.

The reverse is also true because if
we're going to play in this space where

Killmonger remains the Ville and he
was in the movies as he is here without

a challenging hero, because it's not
Tony, uh, it's not black Panther.

There's no challenging force to him.

He falls flat as for me as a villain.

And so it really goes to show that dynamic
between your two central characters and

how they bring out the best of each other,
even as protagonists and antagonists.

And I think that's where I was
starting to, to really cause, I

mean, I have my emotional reactions.

Like I texted you my first reaction to
the episode, Jude, and then I try and be

a little bit more even keeled about it.

And it is, I think there is a
lack of an antagonist in this.

There's just like a one note moving
forward of, of what Killmonger wants.

And so it really goes to show.

What made black Panther work was the
interconnectedness of those two cases?

Jude: Well, what I find interesting is
they, they, in a way tried to give us

that, but those characters were stifled
the whole way until the very end.

That was pepper and Shiri.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: Which absolutely.

Yeah.

I might, my emotions awakened and I was
like, show me that story, you know, like

show me, show me that story, because it
captures the dynamic that you were talking

about, Trey, about the, the, the, uh,
the relationship protagonist, antagonist.

That was, that that was kind of missing,
you know, he was his own antagonist.

Cause he was, he was
play acting both sides.

Hold tight.

Yeah.

I mean, he's a genius.

Yeah.

Jude: Right.

But they, I mean, like they had pepper
suspicious from the very beginning of.

And maybe, I wonder if it would have been
more satisfying if the discoveries was

more blatant by pepper or more blatant
by Shiri and not a kind of, oh, by the

way, I figured this out at the end.

Yeah.

Maybe.

And maybe some conference may.

Okay.

So here's, here's maybe
what they should have done.

Maybe they should have found a way
to have Shiri and pepper figure out

that Killmonger was manipulating
everyone and them resolve it somehow.

Like, like, and Killmonger gets
caught and then you have the line

heroes are never really gone.

They live forever as ones they inspire
to, you know, carry on the fight.

I don't think they can
do that in this episode.

Not that they can't, I don't think
they want to, just because of

how heavy and dark the last three

Friend Daniel: have been.

Yeah.

Strange zombies.

Yeah.

Hey Trey, when you, so you and I, this,
this resonates with me, but like when,

when you talk about like villains being
the protagonist, like, okay, strangest

story is kind of like that, but we
know at the end, he he's remorseful.

Um, even though it's ho it's,
uh, it's, it's hopeless.

Like it's a litter, it's
literally a hopeless situation.

And so it's quite dark, but it's
not dark because he's horrible.

It's dark because he's now realized, I
mean, it's horrible because everyone's

gone, but also he now realizes how
horrible he is or what he's done.

And so that realization is also, you
know, is also quite dark, but, but

there's, it's not redemption, but it's
at least it's at least, um, morality.

Um, whereas this, this is not there's
the there's no, um, I don't know.

There's no progression.

Yeah.

There's no, there's no.

Jude: What I'm saying is like in the
writers or creators mind, I, they probably

thought that in with pepper and Shiri
was satisfying enough to give us that,

Trey: you know, well, so I'll go
ahead and say, we're, we're fully

transitioned into the final act of the
episode, which is that final battle

of Wakanda all the way to that moment
where we see pepper and Sheree team up.

And so I want to respond to both things.

I'll start with what you said, Jude,
about the pepper insurance thing.

I think I agree that by far they're
the most interesting thing that

this episode has going for it.

And you zone in exactly with what I was
feeling Jude with the watcher statement.

Uh, if you remember, he opens up this
episode about how, you know, we lost

one hero and a villain got another.

And then it bookends with the watcher
saying the hero never really dies.

They inspire others to keep going,
but apparently not the episode

because that's where it ends.

Like if that's the, the thesis is
these heroes, even when they're

gone inspire others to take up
their place, we should have had way

more focus on pepper and Sheree.

And yes, you're right there.

Pepper was very suspicious from the
beginning and even Sherry too, whenever

Killmonger gets back to Wakanda, she
was very apprehensive about letting

them back in, but that's not where
the episode wanted to frame it.

It, it was more focused on Killmonger.

I think that given, and, and
as a reminder, whenever you

talk about protagonists and
antagonists, there's it's, I, I

think this is the right phrasing.

There's a lack of morality.

It's not a good or bad person.

It's just the opposing force
to the central character.

Shuri and pepper should have been
the antagonist to kill monger if they

wanted him to be the protagonist.

But that just, it wasn't where it was at.

I think Daniel, you brought up the idea
about the villain being the protagonist.

Whenever we had our.

Conversation about it on
discord in our group message.

I mentioned I'm okay with a story focusing
on the villain, but the story has to

know that they're not in the right.

I don't think this episode does that.

And the best place that exemplifies it
is in that battle, knowing everything

is happening in lives are lost because
of what Killmonger has done and pitted

these people against each other, made
it so hard for me to connect with

moments where to mother mother's crying
and shouting for, for, to Charla.

It's what's going on here to empty.

Yeah.

And then, and then it's like, I think
the biggest sin of this episode is

having Killmonger shout Wakanda forever.

Not only because I think the
performance is very lackluster, but

it's just like, it's, it's that same
feeling I had about them redoing the,

I am iron man seen from end game.

It's just like, what are you doing?

Friend Daniel: I can't, I'm not
sure if it happens in this act

of the before, but we, we forgot.

We forgot to talk about it.

And that's when he becomes black
Panther and he meets to challah in the

afterlife and the lines are telling
because it, it, all it shows to me is

that Killmonger is one dimensional to
Charla, says why you're doing this.

There's an, and, and, and
Congress is for vengeance.

The cure is power.

Right.

And just get more power.

I mean, it's very.

It's very one dimensional.

It's very like, it's very like, you know
ha you know, I mean, it's, it's it's yeah.

I just wanted to mention that scene.

Well, I hope that

Trey: I'll say this really quickly.

And then I want to, I want
to turn back to YouTube.

Cause I think you were
about to say something.

The reason it works in the movie
is because you take the time to

learn what all Killmonger has lost.

We can get no service to that in
this, like it's in the movies.

That would have been a lot more impactful.

If it did play out this way and
you have to child in the afterlife.

Lee lecturing them about how,
what you're seeking and the path

you're on is not going to bring
you the redemption you want.

Because we knew that he witnessed
his father getting murdered

and was left to be on his own.

And he didn't have that guiding
hand from any adult in his life.

But in here it is that one
dimensional mustache, twirling.

I'm going to take over the world because
it just didn't give the depth of story.

Jude: Well, in the movie, I think
it worked because both times we

saw that it was to challah and
Killmonger with their fathers.

And then you see to Charlie and Killmonger
their fight and that conversation.

As Killmonger is dying and
seeing the sunset here.

Hmm.

I think it's another case of them
relying on our knowledge of the black

Panther movie and who challah is to say,
this is going to be a powerful scene.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: I mean, that's okay.

It just, and, and Trey, I think, I don't
think that the episode needs to do all

the, all the lifting that black Panther
has done cause his past is the same.

It's just that the way that he played
off of to child, it's almost like what

I said at the beginning of the podcast,
which is like, this is like, what if

Killmonger had just won, you know, like,
and just like steamrolled everybody.

And there was no one
who really stopped him.

There was no real opposition to his ascent
and that's what you get and it's flat.

And it's a little boring and
it's a little one dimensional.

I mean, that's, that's basically my
conclusion because everything else

it's, it's, it's, there's a logic to it.

And he's emphatic when he talks
to, to challah and the afterlife

or wherever that space is.

And he says, it's for vengeance.

It's, it's the, you know, uh, hang on.

I wrote it down.

He says, uh, the cure is power, but I'm
like, I'm like, ah, you know, there's

no, there's no, there's no contrasting
perspective to, to challenge it.

And that's what made for me.

That's what made black Panther so good.

And it did it in a way that hit right
on the nail of the, you know, the

experience of, of black people and the
struggles that he went through and, and

who the Wakandans are and their identity.

That was all just, it just didn't
have the same pull, I guess.

Yeah.

And the other stories.

Well, I thought all of them
worked and they worked for me,

uh, to varying degrees of success.

And this one didn't

Jude: no, I just, I also
just found it interesting.

Cause they actually got Michael B.

Jordan to come back for this one.

And, and for, for you to say
a lackluster performance.

Hmm.

I don't, I'm not gonna say I
disagree with you because even

when he said, well, he means

Trey: just enough

elsewhere.

Well,

Jude: that's, I'm just saying I'm
not going to disagree because I

had, when he said Wakanda forever.

You're right.

It wasn't the same for me.

I feel like Michael G B
Jordan is a really good actor.

Oh yeah.

And so I'm wondering if that was
intentional from, from the standpoint

of he has, this is the first time
he's ever experienced Wakanda.

So that phrase doesn't mean as much to
him or not going to have the same meaning.

As I say to challah.

And so, and so I'm wondering if that
was a creative choice to reflect his

relationship with Gioconda as distant.

Friend Daniel: For it to be a bit distant.

Yeah.

It felt that way.

I like that.

I think it was supposed to be like, eh,
you know, it's supposed to make you go.

Eh,

Trey: I like that read a lot like
that, that wins me over a little bit.

I think it's just, when you add
up everything else going into

that moment, that's where I
was already like checked out.

But I think you, you have a
very, very great read on that.

Like, yeah.

I, this would have been
his first experience.

Cause even when you said, I think
you said recreated, but essentially

you said something to the extent
of like him doing this again.

My first thought was, well, he didn't
say what kind of forever in the black

Panther movie, but you're right.

That, that's why it's a different
feeling for him because he doesn't have

those experiences to Chatelet head.

Jude: Score one for me.

Trey: I'm sorry.

I swear.

I came into this episode.

I was like, I don't want
to be a party pooper.

I don't want to be a party pooper and I
didn't expect Daniel to be on my side.

It's

Jude: okay.

You know, I, and again, I truly meant it.

Like y'all are giving really
good valid points, you know?

And so I don't have, again, as much
as I do and I did enjoy the episode.

I, I think, I think if y'all
were saying the same things about

last week's episode or the Dr.

Strange episode, I probably
would have a stronger reaction in

defending it, if that makes sense.

And so I w well, I do, I
didn't enjoy this episode.

I'm not getting that.

I'll admit I'm not getting that feeling
of like, I'm jumping to its defense.

Yeah.

He can catch the truck kinda,
kinda feeling, you know, I'm just

not like, like I have the more
feeling of like, yeah, you're right.

He should have got crushed by the truck,
you know, um, kind of feeling with this

episode and, you know, I was looking,
cause I wanted to double-check Michael B.

Jordan, you know, doing that voice
on IMD, take it for what it's worth.

The two lowest rated episodes so
far on IMTP are the first and the

first, the first one in this one.

Wow.

You know, uh,

Trey: seven point highest or
lowest, lowest it cut out for a bit.

Okay.

So I take back my, well,

Jude: no, the, the, the lowest where the
first one in this one, the highest was Dr.

Strange with nine stars.

Wow.

Um, episodes two, three,
and five or 8.1 stars.

Okay.

Friend Daniel: Yeah, I can see why.

I mean, Michael B.

Jordan Killmonger.

Great character.

Why wouldn't we want to see him again?

Yeah.

And like th the, the contrivance of
putting him together with Ironman.

Fantastic.

The great idea.

And I just didn't, I wasn't
thrilled with the third act.

The second.

I mean, the, the, the second, the second
act, the beginning of the second act,

when he, you know, he takes out Tony,
it just doesn't, it feels like it, it

went away from its original premise
and it kind of falls flat for me.

Trey: I have a feeling that we're
pretty much at the end of act three.

So that's going to leave
us with our stray thoughts.

This is the section for us to just kind
of have any loose thoughts from the

episode we didn't cover in the acts,
starting with you, Daniel, what are

some of your stray thoughts for this.

Friend Daniel: First on the positive side,
the music was fantastic at many different

points in many different registers.

When, when Tony and Killmonger
are walking, it's got the,

just really cool music.

And then the scene, when, you know,
the, like the, uh, the tinkering scene,

when they're building the, the, the
Gundam anime inspired ship, that,

that music was really, really cool.

And then just a stupid comment
was I couldn't help, but laughing.

And then on second watch,
I laughed even harder.

The drone come, they like cut to the
drone command center and it's a freaking

parking lot and a square building.

It's the

Trey: most boring thing you've ever seen.

Friend Daniel: It's like,
what, who designed that?

Like, this is a cartoon.

Like, they're really trying to be real.

Okay.

Like, I'm like, at least, like if
you're going to spend money on,

on a, on a building, it's just, do
you guys even remember seeing it?

No.

No, actually just so fast.

And it's like, it's literally says
drone command center and I'm like,

really, like, that's like a parking
lot and like a cube, you know?

That's fantastic.

Yeah.

Those are my, those are my stray thoughts.

Trey: What about you?

What

Jude: about YouTube?

Yeah.

I'm with you.

I love the music.

Uh, cause it was a lot of callback,
the chirping of the Dora, you

know, and the, in the Killmonger.

Ha let's see.

And I liked that you brought up
how, how this is a cartoon and like

they just went small and going big
because the, when Killmonger shows.

And grabbed the missile and threw it.

It just reminded me of the
old eighties, GI Joe cartoon.

You know, it just, it just did.

I had a note that, you know, we are
visiting a universe where happy, never

becomes the forehead of security.

You know, I had some good ones.

Yeah.

Like I completely missed the foreshadowing
of Tony dying, where he talked about

Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

Oh yeah.

Pepper pointed out.

He dies, you know, and I didn't even
catch that until the second viewing, you

know, I it's interesting to Charlie at the
same end as his uncle in the movie, the

black pants or close to the abdomen, no.

Or just challenges or roadie
did roadie did roadie did.

Okay.

So yeah, I guess I got that wrong.

The other thing is, I'm sorry, we're
getting a whole lot of to challah.

Yeah.

Through the what F yeah.

Across multiple episodes, uh, which
leaves me have two more thoughts and I'm

going to, I'm going to build, well, I
have some others, but the two hour I want

to stay stick with here is this could
have ended very early because you had

the drone grab Killmonger by the throat.

And at that point I'm like, dude,
if Tony was a true killer, you just

like crush his throat right there.

And we're done, you know, and part
of me at that point, you kind of

expected that of Tony, but man,
we would have taken a really dark

turn if that's the way it went.

And then I, the last two, and I'm
curious if you guys caught this.

I don't know if I caught it.

I was paying attention
to the second one second.

Watching was.

Frank Ken was talking to, he said he felt
like to Charlie's voice sounded a little

bit weaker and was wondering if, if it
was just him or if it was the case of

where Chadwick Boseman was in terms of his
cancer treatment, when he did the lines.

I mean,

Friend Daniel: it's possible.

I mean,

Jude: you know, and, and I'm not sure,
like I, once he mentioned that in my

second watch, I was kind of trying
to listen for it, but I wasn't, I

couldn't tell if I was just hearing
things, you know, uh, if it was really

there and, you know, given Chadwick's
death, I thought there was a, a really,

probably a deeper meaning than what
they originally intended with that

final line, uh, which I really like.

And made me wonder, is that something
that was part of the original plan or

did they go back and pick that up later?

Cause I know, I think the writer said
that being animated, they wrote these

scripts about like two years out.

Otherwise they would have used the term
nexus event more and instead of, um,

uh, the, the absolute point and Dr.

Stranger's thing.

Trey: Oh, okay.

That makes sense.

Oh, interesting.

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

So, um, what was I going to
say with Chadwick Bozeman?

I think that, I think they were
trying, I think he was, he was probably

supportive of this, but they were trying
to, to put him in as much as possible.

Right.

Like I think they were, I think
they were trying to, to, to bring

to challah, to life as much as
possible, knowing that, that.

That he, he was, you know,
that he wasn't coming back.

Um, and I don't know.

I couldn't tell you Jude, if it was
later added later or not, but, um, I

can understand why they're doing it.

I'm glad.

Jude: Yeah.

So a tray that leaves you
and you're straight though,

Trey: for me, uh, I've only got a
couple I'll start with, with the drum

that I keep beating this entire season.

The water is becoming more and more
defined as we get into this series.

To the point you could, like
there were details to his face

and like, not just a silhouette in
the sky, but an actual character.

So I don't know if that means anything.

I thought it was worth highlighting.

Another one I wanted to point out, I
forgot where I was going to share this

online, but it was just like, it was too.

And I don't know if nuance is the
right word, but it's, I want to

make sure I'm saying this lightly.

It was very funny to me in that
scene where they're giving the press

conference and Obadiah is revealed
to be the bad guy and happy Hogan is

the one who comes in to like Dexcom.

And he goes, oh, I always hated that guy.

That line is so much funnier
to me knowing that John Fabro

directed iron man and assuming Jeff
Bridges is a delight to work with.

So to just pretend to deco
him and say like, oh, that guy

sucked had to have been fun.

And the recording,

sorry.

That got to chuckle.

Jude: Always hated.

It was,

Friend Daniel: I had, I had flashes
of priest Vistola from clone wars.

Cause he voiced an, a character
from, um, from film, from clone wars.

And he's got this like whiny
high, like high pitch thing.

I don't know.

That's all, that's all I thought of.

Um, when he was a.

Jude: Yeah, no, I was just going
to say, I thought her John MacLean,

Trey: it fits doesn't it.

Jude: Oh

Trey: man.

Right.

My, uh, my final two straight thoughts
and they're in the same section,

really loved, uh, Killmonger going.

What?

I like anime, knowing how much Michael B.

Jordan likes anime.

So I'm glad he got to interview
that into his character.

And it's extra funny that the Gundam
design reveal happens right before Tony

says, Hey, you got an eye for branding.

And he was like, oh, okay man, maybe not.

So he ate his words a little bit.

So that, that got, that got a
consistent chuckle out of me every time.

Jude: yeah.

Yeah.

Well, okay.

Nevermind.

What's up.

No, I wouldn't say we're in a straight
thought to this point, but that was

the other thing that just popped into
my head about that whole iron man.

Two thing that design was
very similar to yeah.

As well.

Trey: Well, that's going to wrap up
our stray thoughts, but we've been

having a lot of fun doing this.

So we're going to do it here in
this episode as well, which is

we're going to read through some
of the audience's first tastes.

So we posted on Instagram and Twitter
are pre spoiler thoughts, and we were

able to get some reactions from others.

So starting with this one, this one
comes in from new type dot Nova and

it says, quote, I thought it was an
interesting take in quote, and I kind

of feel that because I think as, as much
as I've been beating on this episode,

I think there is, uh, uh, interesting
premise here somewhere so I can see

where they're coming from on that one.

Jude: Yeah.

The next one we have, uh, been Maddie.

It was a fun episode.

We'll condos always cool.

Ending was a bit abrupt though in quote.

Um, yeah, I think honestly, I
think listening to this episode,

we ended up agreeing with them
that, well, you could almost say

that about a lot of these episodes.

Um, cause I feel like some of the
conversations I have is, oh, I

want to see what's next, you know?

And um, I don't think
we're going to get those.

Friend Daniel: Okay.

The next audience first take
was, uh, from me from Daniel.

Uh, and you know, this is back
before my second watch and I wrote

a quote loved seeing Kilmore.

Story worked for me and quote,
well, obviously, um, he was wrong.

Mine's changed.

Jude: Well, okay.

We, we said in the beginning,
you know, we're defying the TVA.

So which friend did?

Yes.

Friend Daniel: Right?

Which friend Daniel was this?

Yeah.

Trey: Is this the leach friending?

Jude: Oh, it's all simulation tray.

Trey: Okay.

All right.

I'm going to go ahead and
start with the next one.

So I don't have my own existential crisis.

Uh, this one comes in from the slushie and
it says, quote, I was pretty into it, but

damn everything sir, work to perfectly.

Huh?

Some of these episodes better
have a part two though.

And I think that's very much in line
with what you were saying, Jude.

Uh, and about what Ben Maddy was
saying about how abrupt it was.

It, I, this is me coming in on this.

It can't be a coincidence that nearly
every episode ends with a cliffhanger.

So I'm assuming something has
to be being set up for that.

Jude: Yeah.

And then see, and the thing is, I was
talking with Ken today at work and it's

like, well, is season two going to be
picking up on these cliffhangers, but if

it does, that means we have a whole other
season of what if that doesn't explore

Sean Chichi and all this other content.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

I don't, I don't, I don't, I
honestly don't think that's right.

I think that, I think that, um, so in
the tradition of what if they would

always end on, they would always
end on cliffhangers, um, because

it was always about possibility.

Like, you know, um, I don't know.

I mean, it's certainly possible,
but I don't, I don't think, I don't

think we're like, we already did the
Killmonger episode, so, so why are

we going to do another one when there
are so many other stories out there?

Yeah.

Well,

Trey: yeah.

You know, I'm so glad you're here
because you actually, I think

you mentioned that in our discord
about how the spirit of what if

was they did and done cliffhangers?

Was it all, was it always single
issue or did they last a couple of

issues before that arc was closed?

I'm

Friend Daniel: almost positive.

There were single issue.

Okay.

I'm pretty sure I was
not a, I was not an avid.

What if re.

But th it was, oh, I I'm almost
certain that they were all one shots.

Not only it was like, it was like a
run, but it was like, it was like,

I dunno, a hundred, 100 comics,
but I mean, or more, but they were

always, what if this, what if this,
it has never, I don't ever remember

Jude: there being, I was gonna say, if I
remember right, sometimes the, what ifs

didn't even have its own comic, right?

Like it was at the end of a comic.

It was like its own separate story.

Uh, and the only reason why I say
that is like one of my favorite

comic artists, Todd knock.

Um, his first paid gig with
Marvel was doing a, what if?

And I think he said that
was only a couple of pages.

Like it wasn't, I don't
think it was a full comic.

So,

Trey: Hm.

Yeah.

Well, that's good to know.

I, I, I'm so glad we got to this
point because it was something that

I meant to ask you going into this
Daniel, because I knew we had that

conversation, but it almost slipped away.

So I'm glad we were able
to circle back to it.

Cool.

But yeah, that's going to wrap it up.

So thank you for all those who sent
in their first takes on the episode.

We really appreciate it.

Uh, and we look forward to hearing more
from people who watched the episode, but

regarding this one, Daniel, I want to
say, thank you so much for doing this.

This has been a lot of fun.

Friend Daniel: Yeah.

Thanks for having me.

It was an interesting experience.

Cause normally I am the,
uh, I'm the cheerleader

So, you know, normally I'm like give them
a break, cut up some slack, you know,

You know, take them for what it's, you
know, give them the benefit of the doubt,

but, you know, exception that proves the

Trey: rule.

I don't know, you know?

Yeah.

We all standards you've won me over.

Jude: Um,

Trey: it was he all along,

Friend Daniel: which, by the way, did you
see that, um, that song picked up an Emmy.

Oh, nice.

Yep.

It won the Emmy.

I got the all along when
the test picked up, uh, uh,

Trey: quite a few, at
least more fantastic mate.

Jude: Again, thinking of the shows.

It should have

Trey: 100%.

Yeah.

Well, if you want to keep up with
Daniel and all his musings, make

sure that you were joining in the
discord where he frequently, uh, talks

about the episodes with all of us.

But if you want to reach out to us and
have any thoughts or opinions on this

episode, or what if in general you can
always reach us at MC you need to know

on Twitter and Instagram, uh, we've been
doing a lot of work to put up some more

content than just clips from the episode.

We have some bonus clips that don't make
it into the final cut that you hear in

the podcast feed, as well as, um, just
quick thoughts of the episode on the

day it releases if not the day after.

So you get a bit of a taste of what we're
going to talk about here in the episode

without having to wait until Monday.

If any of that is of your interest, make
sure that you headless out by following

us on those social media accounts.

Jude: And of course, be sure to
check the show notes for the link to

join the discord, where you can find
all three of us and others that are

really in love talking about the MCU.

Uh, when you do join, please make
sure you click on the role, assign

click on the emoji so you can have
access to all the spoiler channels.

Uh, also we'd appreciate
it for a rating in review.

Uh, the feedback is super helpful for us.

You know, if you'll like, what
you listened to, um, sharing with

a friend is also a huge help.

Trey: Yeah.

We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for
the use of our theme song, which is

his rendition of the Avengers thing.

You find more of his work on
his SoundCloud, which is linked

in the show notes as well.

That's going to do it.

Thank you so much for
listening and Daniel and Jude.

Thank you so much for doing this.

We'll see you all

yeah.

You

Friend Daniel: didn't.

You have a podcast

Trey: about it tray.

Yes.

Jude: What's ups fed testing.

Trey: Do you still listen to it too?

I have to.

Friend Daniel: I have to go listen
to it because I'll send you the link.

So recognizes that show was something
else, which I mean like game of

Thrones seasons, the first five
seasons were like something else.

Trey: mean, it was like
I got in on the last.

So I got to watch the earlier ones.

Oh yeah.

I watched the early ones,
but I didn't start thinking

like, Hey, a podcast would be.

Until, like the last one.

Oh, that

Friend Daniel: sucks to watch it.

Did you watch it as it went
or did you get caught up?

I was there day one.

Okay.

Yeah.

So it was like, it was remarkable.

And then, yeah, and then like I
read the books and then the books,

I was like, what's going to happen.

And then it was like season six and
I was like, okay, this is, uh, and

then season seven was just trash.

It was just like utter

Trey: garbage.

I don't listen to

Jude: trace podcast because what you
get is someone who was there from

day one going into the last season.

So excited.

You hear the disappointment
gradually build into anger because

Trey: you

Friend Daniel: want you're
like, you're like, this

Trey: is going to be good truck.

Friend Daniel: It really
doesn't does it tray.

Jude: It's so funny.

Trey: We're still disappointed.

She didn't show up for the last episode.

Friend Daniel: yeah.

You told me that it makes
the truck look tame.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That's great.