The Unique Experience of a Justice-Impacted Law Student

Show Notes

After a criminal pays their debt to society, should they continue to suffer additional consequences for their crime for the rest of their life? Ricky Panayoty developed a deep passion for the law while serving a 10-year sentence for robbery, but really didn’t know whether he could apply to college, let alone law school, after being released. Law students come from a multitude of backgrounds, but justice-impacted individuals like Ricky often have many more obstacles to overcome. Faculty host Todd Berger talks with host Chay Rodriguez about her interview with Ricky discussing his incarceration, the experiences that fueled his interest in law, and his circuitous path to law school. They also highlight the perspective a justice-impacted individual brings to the legal profession and examine policies and procedures that affect the future prospects of these individuals. 

 

Ricky Panayoty is a Juris Doctor candidate at Atlanta's John Marshall Law School and worked as a summer intern at Bryant Green & Associates.

Creators and Guests

Host

Chay Rodriguez

TB

Host

Todd Berger

Guest

Leah Haberman

JD Candidate @ColumbiaLaw,

What is ABA Law Student Podcast?

Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.

Todd Berger (00:00):
There's no one right path to lead someone to law school, whether you come to it from a creative writing program or an engineering program from binging courtroom dramas, or just being passionate about a specific issue. Each student comes with their own unique strengths and challenges that ultimately inform their legal philosophy, their choice of practice area, their mission. But despite this understood truth of our diverse origin stories, the idea of someone coming to law school from a 10 year prison sentence for robbery may still be surprising. Today we're going to meet someone who has taken such a circuitous path and hear about the unique challenges that he faces as a result, as well as the incredible passion and value that such a background can help Foster. Welcome to the a a Law Student podcast. Hello everyone. I'm Todd Berger, faculty host of the A A Law Student podcast, and today I'm in the studio with our host Shay Rodriguez. Hey Shay.

Chay Rodriguez (01:10):
Hi Todd.

Todd Berger (01:11):
So Chay, what do you have for us here today,

Chay Rodriguez (01:13):
Todd, I am excited to present a discussion that focuses on a lesser known aspect of diversity, especially in the legal field at a time when we're dealing with the ramifications of the court's decisions on affirmative action. And we're defining the impact that legacy applicants have on a classroom. A handful of law schools are waiting in waters that are not frequently explored by admitting students who have been justice impacted, which to the average student or listener. I think they would almost think that that's taboo in the legal community. And I was able to speak with our guest today about how the adversity of being significantly justice impacted adds to the classroom and the profession. And I'm looking forward to speaking to you about this as well.

Todd Berger (01:59):
For the sake of clarity, Shay, what does justice impacted mean?

Chay Rodriguez (02:03):
So according to the law school admissions council, justice impacted individuals include those who have been incarcerated or detained in a prison, immigration detention center, local jail, a juvenile detention center, or any other carceral setting. And those who have been convicted but not incarcerated, and also those who have been charged but not convicted as well as those who have been arrested.

Todd Berger (02:29):
That sounds really broad.

Chay Rodriguez (02:31):
It is. And by some estimates, one in three adults in the US have had some form of a criminal record. So we're really talking about a large percentage of the population. And as you imagine, having that criminal record can make life harder and put some real roadblocks in place and change your thinking on what you think you could accomplish.

Todd Berger (02:53):
Sounds really interesting, Shay. So who are we going to talk to today to get a better understanding of this really important issue?

Chay Rodriguez (02:59):
Today we're talking to Ricky Pane, a current law student and formerly incarcerated individual. He actually goes to Atlanta, John Marshall, and he grew up in New York City. And I'm not going to give away the whole story, but Ricky's kind of first interaction with the justice system came when he was a teenager and his last sentence, he spent eight and a half of a 10 year sentence in prison for robbery. And during his time in prison, Ricky developed a deep passion for the law and he didn't expect that he would have that opportunity to pursue a career as an attorney due to his history, which I think is a logical jump just because Todd, I know you probably remember when you're filling out your law school application and you have to put in even the parking tickets, you start to get warm and like, oh man, is this parking ticket going to be what keeps me out of law school or is the fact that I sped a little bit on I 95 going to keep me out of law school? So Ricky and I really discussed whether that presumption of being justice impacted was widespread among justice impacted individuals.

Ricky Panayoty (04:17):
And I would say for the vast majority of people who find themselves in those type of situations would not think of law school as an option because of some of the stigmas that are out there and also some of the fears and the misinformation as well. But people should be reminded that law is one of the helping professions for a small group of people who actually go through these experiences. They actually are able to use that time to transform and rehabilitate themselves and come out into society and reintegrate well. So it has its negative points and its positive points as well.

Chay Rodriguez (04:59):
When did you even have the idea you can take the lsat, compose an application or pursue a jd? Where were you at in your journey of the legal system where you had that epiphany?

Ricky Panayoty (05:14):
That epiphany built over time? After I had already been in the workforce, I had already had positive outcomes for myself when I was released. So from 2010 to 2014, I've been in the workforce and I was fortunate enough because a lot of people run into some barriers there when it comes to employment, but I've been fortunate enough to be able to navigate that and have the confidence and actually have the work experience to be able to make it work for me. But I would say that after leaving the workforce, I had published a book that talked about my life growing up as a five percenter in New York City. And a good friend of mine, a reader, encouraged me to go back to, because at the time I had a GED

(06:00):
And I was like, well, I don't even know if I can go to college. And it was through his advice and his information sharing that I was able to find out that I could apply for college and get financial aid. And so I pursued that avenue and found myself at Queensborough Community College and had a lot of great professors there. But there was one professor that inspired me to want to pursue law, and he was my business law professor, professor Steven Hamill. And one day I was at his office hours and he had this poster for the Skadden ARP Honors Program in legal studies at the City College of New York. And when I saw the poster, I asked him about it and he said, you might want to think about applying. And this program is a two year program to provide students who are interested in a career in law with the resources that would help them prepare for the LSAT and apply to law school.

Chay Rodriguez (06:57):
Wow.

Ricky Panayoty (06:57):
And I was fortunate enough to apply and get accepted into this program. And at the time I thought that I was fast tracking it to John Jay College of Criminal Justice until I went into my professor's office hours

New Speaker (07:12):
And

Ricky Panayoty (07:13):
I wanted to be more informed about the route that I was taking. I knew that I was leaning towards an interest definitely and going to law school, but at the time I didn't know that a person with my background was even capable or eligible to even apply to law school because of the prevailing views that might be out there when people are misinformed, they would believe that somebody who's justice impacted could not even attempt or even think about trying to become an attorney.

Chay Rodriguez (07:41):
And can I tell you, I feel like it's a little odd that we are programmed this way because while you were incarcerated, you were able to work as a law clerk inside, correct? Correct. So to think that you could do that in there, but you couldn't come out and think that you could freely partake in this profession, can you give a little insight into the work that you did there that at least let you know that your mind could go there?

Ricky Panayoty (08:12):
Right, sure. While I was incarcerated, I was just sentenced, right? And when people are typically sentenced, those who have some curiosity or concerned about their case will attempt to go to a prison law library to research their case. And then I was one of those people that was curious about the proceedings and how they went on in my own case. And I went to the law library and spent so much time in the law library and I taught myself. And of course with the help of other law clerks, guidance, of course, I learned how to use the law books. I learned how to use, for example, the New York Digest Key system,

(08:53):
Which is a set of books I've learned to use Corpus Jund and the Blacks Law Dictionary. And I taught myself in the prisoners litigation handbook. These resources in the law library were very instrumental to me learning how to navigate a law library and how to read cases. And so the law library and took notice of this, her name is Ms. Waldron, I'll never forget her. She walked up to me one day. Little old lady walked up to me one day and said, Hey, I noticed that you spent a lot of time in the law library. Well, we are having a legal research course offered to the prisoners here, and you may want to consider taking this legal research course. It might help better what you're doing now.

New Speaker (09:37):
And

Ricky Panayoty (09:37):
I took her up on her offer and I took the course and I ended up scoring the highest in my class.

Chay Rodriguez (09:45):
No surprise there, Ricky. No surprise there, Ricky.

Ricky Panayoty (09:50):
Yeah, I mean, I just took such an interest to our legal system, how it's set up and how decisions are made and the legal reasoning behind a lot of decisions. It just made me more and more curious. And the more I read, the more I found out, the less I actually knew. But at the time, I still didn't know that I would end up in law school because I was still serving my time. But some of the work that I was doing as a law clerk, and let me tell you the Department of Corrections, they paid me 25 cents an hour, that was my prison wage, 25 cents an hour to assist prisoners with appeals collateral attacks on their convictions. Sometimes they may want to, for example, vacate the judgment or vacate the sentence or modify their sentence. A lot of people who are incarcerated and already sentenced, they're trying to get some kind of redress for their convictions, or sometimes they may feel like they have some legal issues, sometimes they don't. But my job was to assist them to navigate those law books and to help them draft their petitions to the court. And I enjoy doing that

Chay Rodriguez (10:56):
To advocate from the inside really.

Ricky Panayoty (10:58):
Correct. Correct. It was almost ironic that here I am incarcerated and helping other people incarcerated. I'm advocating, but at the time I'm not realizing that I'm advocating because at the time I believe that there was a case that says something to the effect of when people get incarcerated, their constitutional rights do not cease at the prison door. But I believe that my constitutional rights were already given up. I totally didn't understand my predicament. And so it took a lot of learning on my part to understand the position that I put myself in for one, and the responsibility that I had to take in order to get myself out.

Chay Rodriguez (11:42):
And you know what, Ricky, I think that that mindset that you said you thought that your rights forget being done at the front door when a lot of before you're even in a real prison, you're in a prison in your neighborhood or in a prison in your mind, and you already count yourself out. When you actually finally decide that you are going to go to law school, you Ricky are going to go to law school and you get to that character and fitness piece. When we talk about navigating our circumstances, what gives you the confidence to, on that application navigate truly the impact that the justice system has had on you and competently apply to different law schools to move forward with your life?

Ricky Panayoty (12:37):
I would say two things specifically. First being I have to stay true to myself and I feel like it's my personal mission to chart this path and to give it a shot either way to have faith in myself and just give it a shot. And when I get to that point where I'm honored to be before the character and fitness board or committee, I'll just have to stay true to myself and be open and honest and candid about my narrative, my truth, my story, and not hide or not take responsibility or remorse for anything that I've done in the past. And that's number one. Number two, there was something that one of my professors at the City College of New York said to me that will stay with me forever. She said to me one day that when dealing with character and fitness or questions about my past, it is worse to attempt to cover it up, if that makes any sense.

Chay Rodriguez (13:34):
No, it makes a lot of sense. And is that something that you had to reconcile with when you were even just applying to law school? Take that deep breath. I'm just going to tell 'em who I am, what has happened to me.

Ricky Panayoty (13:47):
Oh no. By the time that I started applying to law school, I had already been comfortable with answering the question and checking the box. Yes, I have been convicted of a crime At the time, there was some employment applications. I was well used to being candid on job applications long before college. And through that experience, and by the way, going on numerous job interviews and being comfortable with talking to the employer, to the hiring manager about my past, I remember writing in on the job application. I would check yes, and then I would try to squeeze it in there. If there was no room, I would put We'll explain during

Chay Rodriguez (14:28):
Interview that little line, right, that little line they give you next to the box.

Ricky Panayoty (14:33):
Yeah. If that line was too small, I'll try to find a way to get it in there somehow and make it neat. I had gotten used to checking that box, and I recall some states now have passed a Ban the box law, which I thought was real cool. And I like to thank all of those legislators out there that voted to pass the box laws out there in different states. Because this is what I'm talking about though, right? That's an example of meeting folks who have been justice impacted halfway, give them a shot, give them a shot to at least explain themselves at an interview rather than foreclosing the interview opportunity altogether before it even starts.

Chay Rodriguez (15:18):
And I think that's a great point, Ricky, because you and I have, we've spoken about Reginald Dwayne bets, and I'll put some respect on his name and say, attorney bets now who graduated from Yale, he had a bit of a delay in it being admitted to the Connecticut bar because of the concerns that the board had about his moral character and fitness to serve. And then also under Florida law, convicted criminals are not fully allowed to take the Florida Bar exam unless they've had their civil rights fully restored, and they're one of the few states in the country with this requirement. But when you think about that, what is that hesitancy to admit them to the bar, to let them sit for the exam, say about what we really think about rehabilitation and the system we have in place?

Ricky Panayoty (16:02):
Well, I would say this in all fairness, that each respective state, typically, as I understand it, the character and fitness portion of things are governed by the Supreme Courts or maybe an appellate court of the respective states. And so I would say that in some cases, yes, there is that hesitancy. We do see some cases of that, but we also see some cases of folks getting the opportunity to practice. And so I think that it's definitely up to the discretion of the character and fitness committees out there, but I have faith that the committees, the character and fitness committees will look at each bar candidate, look at their background holistically and not punish them for any crimes in the past. Not to say that that's double jeopardy, but I don't think that somebody that made it as far as law school should have to pay for the same crime that they may be judged then for something that they've already served their time for and completed. And so I have faith though that the hesitancy might be warranted in some circumstances and may not be warranted in some circumstances, and I just have the faith that they will look at each candidate fairly and hear their story and vote or judge fairly.

Todd Berger (17:29):
So Shay, this has been a really interesting interview so far with Ricky. Ricky talked about the idea that you shouldn't, after you pay your debt to society, basically be punished for the rest of your life. You're in law school. Do you see a lot of discussion about allowing reform individuals opportunity to be lawyers themselves or otherwise be able to contribute meaningfully to society?

Chay Rodriguez (17:53):
It's not talked about a lot in law school classes, and I don't even think it's talked about enough when we just have general conversations about career paths. I think especially Ricky, we had a conversation prior to the interview and Ricky is Caribbean, so when you even bring into it how immigrants are, it's drilled into them, it's success or nothing, you get into trouble and you're done. Your life is over and then you compact that with what the justice system does kind of do. It takes you in and kind of spits you back out, and there are not a lot of programs in place or things in place to make sure that once you get out of that setting, you're able to get on the right path. His perception of everything, I think he has to have that mindset. He has to have faith in his process. He has to believe that this isn't all for nothing because if you don't have that optimism, what do you have?

Todd Berger (18:58):
I think it's really interesting too, is that a lot of the people who are going to be making decisions, matter of fact, probably all of the people who are going to be making decisions about whether someone can practice as a lawyer are themselves going to be lawyers. They have gone to law school and we know that legal education helps shape the outlook of people who end up practicing as attorneys. And I do wonder if we were able to interject into legal education, more discussions about the value of reform or the value of grace, the value of making sure that people who have that hope that Ricky has and do all of the right things to be successful members of society. If we stress that maybe when those people end up on the board of bar examiners and on these character and fitness committees, they'll have a sense that, yeah, you've paid your debt to society and there's no reason that being a lawyer isn't something that you can do in relation to that. You can even really positively be examples for other people and you may be able to bring a unique perspective to the practice of law that is important in various fields and areas of practice.

Chay Rodriguez (20:03):
I completely agree. This subject matter in and of itself, it makes me think of US Supreme Court Justice Jackson. She served as an assistant public defender in DC and her logic behind serving was I remember thinking very clearly that I felt like I didn't have enough of an idea of what really happened in criminal cases and I wanted to understand the system. I think being more inclusive of justice impacted students helped to cut through that disconnect and it allows the understanding to start in the classroom. There is value in that, and I think the sooner we grasp that value, the sooner we'll be able to use it.

Todd Berger (20:44):
We'll be right back. Shay, do you that justice impacted individuals may have a unique perspective that they would bring to legal education, to classroom discussion to view of particular cases or the rule of law that you might not otherwise get just from the professor or some other students or the book you happen to be reading?

Chay Rodriguez (21:06):
I do think that. I think they bring an experience and a background, and let me kind of also be clear. I understand that we all have a unique background. We all have our own story, but being just as impacted in particular I think plays differently in the law school arena because it's something that we are fighting within. And whether we are trying to make sure that justice is served in one way or the other, being able to actually hear about these experiences firsthand from the other side of it, I think provides a value that it can't be taught. And I don't think you really can read it to really feel it and to really let it impact the ways in which you want to move forward with your legal career.

Todd Berger (21:55):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that the more diverse perspectives we have, the more we can better understand the law, how the law relates to the human condition and can make you a more empathetic individual. And I think it can have real world practical impact. It can make you a better lawyer when you understand things from perspectives that are different than your own.

Chay Rodriguez (22:15):
Yes, that's kind of what we get into next.

Todd Berger (22:17):
Great. Let's hear it.

Chay Rodriguez (22:27):
Your adversity, I think, in that part of your life can really give your classmates and your university and opportunity to take advantage of a different experience in the classroom.

New Speaker (22:42):
Yes. And

Chay Rodriguez (22:43):
That's arguably I think adding to the definition of what we consider diversity.

Ricky Panayoty (22:48):
Yes.

Chay Rodriguez (22:49):
Can you name some of the ways that you've been able to contribute to the classroom? We'll get to the law school as a whole, but what have you been able to contribute to the classroom with your unique story?

Ricky Panayoty (23:01):
I've been able to add a unique perspective. I've always tried to take opportunities to engage in the classroom and to just show diversity. Again, just when other students from different backgrounds in different walks of life are able to hear, for example, my perspective on a case. I think that that might add to how they might digest the realities that we're reading about in these cases. And our case books provide us with numerous cases from all different types of legal topics, from constitutional law, civil law, civil procedure, right? Contracts. We learn about all of these different cases. And when we have our classroom discussions, I actually enjoy participating not just inside the classroom but in the hallways with the students on the elevators, with the students outside of the classroom, with the students engaging in social activities and mixers and conferences. All of these things add I think to the richness of the education that we will come out with when we graduate.

Chay Rodriguez (24:08):
But your I think experience is different than the average experience and can especially add to when we're in an evidence class or when we're in a crim pro class or when we're in one of those classes that especially deal with criminal law on its face just because not only your experience, but the cases that you were able to see in that law library so many years ago and the uniqueness of that, I'm going to call it in a weird opportunity to be exposed to how the law really works in and out in different cases, sometimes the same way in ways that we would like to change, but also in ways that you would never think, oh wow, this analysis. And you're able to share that with students who are not exposed to that.

Ricky Panayoty (25:00):
Yeah, correct. I think your point of view is on target and it is very near correct. I mean, I see it every day, but I think that also when I think about the different types of students from all the different walks of life in America all coming together in these melting pots called law schools, and we are all learning this profession together. Overall, I think that the legal profession is moving in a good direction with students from all different walks of life. And of course, different generations now are entering law schools and the legal profession you can see changing. And I think that this right here will be very helpful to society as a whole when you have diverse law students graduating and becoming attorneys because a lot of their clients will be diverse. Let's just take for example, black men in America, one in three black men at some point has been justice impacted in some kind of way. But when you look at all of the different professions and when you look at all the different needs of clients out there, a lot of these attorneys that are graduating will have clients who might be one of those black men

Chay Rodriguez (26:16):
And they can benefit from having you

(26:19):
In the classroom. Correct. And on that note, the law school admissions council in collaboration with the National Justice Impact Bar Association actually developed and administered the 2020 Justice Impact Law School survey to kind of explore those policies and procedures that specifically affect law schools and justice impacted applicants and students. And they focused on the policies, practices, and services during that 20 19, 20 20 academic year. And they found that only two of 85 responding schools reported intentionally recruiting students who were justice impacted. But if we were to look at that number and increase it just a tick, how do you think that we as aspiring attorneys could benefit from having more justice impacted classmates to contribute to the classroom conversation and the analysis that's brought up?

Ricky Panayoty (27:10):
I think students would benefit a great deal in the legal field. What we learn in the classroom is one thing,

Chay Rodriguez (27:17):
And

Ricky Panayoty (27:17):
Most of which is doctrine in theory. And that's integral to our education. But when we graduate, we will have to interact with different types of people and for the sake of the students who want to become attorneys and seriously be able to be equipped and have the skills necessary or have the knowledge necessary to be able to represent their clients because it could be the case that the client is just as impacted or might be facing an issue that involves being just as impacted. And so that attorney would want the benefit of having someone like me just being able to ask me questions for an example about these types of issues aside from, for example, we learn from our professors, but then we learn from each other. So in that respect, in that spirit, it would be my hope that students would take away that if they have a student who has been just impacted in their classroom to engage them as well. Don't be afraid. They're a person just like you. They just probably came a long way from whatever mistakes they made in life. And everybody makes mistakes, but it is not what happens to you, it's what you do after what happens to you that matters. And so it's not how we start, it's how we finish.

Chay Rodriguez (28:34):
Exactly. Listen, Ricky, I want to thank you so much for what you've contributed to this conversation. I want to thank you for what you contribute to the classroom, and I cannot wait to see what you contribute to the courtroom. Thank you so much.

Ricky Panayoty (28:46):
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Todd Berger (28:57):
We will be right back. What are your major takeaways from your talk?

Chay Rodriguez (29:02):
My major takeaway is how full Circle Ricky's journey has been. He was actually able to work as a legislative intern for Hakeem Jeffries and work on the First Step Act in 2018. And that was of course before he entered into law school. But it was a way in which he was able to see, Hey, I can give back and I can go from being inside, getting paid 25 cents an hour working in the prison law library to really researching and helping legislation pass that will impact those coming out in order to have a smoother transition than what it would be. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you have also done some reentry work, correct. So you can kind of connect with that as well.

Todd Berger (29:58):
Yeah, absolutely. So I practiced as public defender in Philadelphia for about seven years. And that was really interesting because I saw the side of the criminal justice system where people are charged with crimes and trying to keep people out of jail or minimize what their jail sentence might look like. And I never really got to see people's lives after they got out of prison and what kind of difficulties or obstacles people faced. And so after I left the Public Defender's office, I directed a prisoner reentry clinic, and I did that for two years. And I was working with formerly incarcerated individuals trying to address the outstanding civil legal issues that can prevent successful reintegration. So it was everything from owing back child support. So people would go work and they'd get minimum wage and then half of their paycheck would go to paying back child support.

(30:50):
And it was hard for people to earn a living, which created kind of an incentive to return to criminality. So we address issues like that. Oftentimes it's just simple things like you need a driver's license to get to a job, but people had unpaid tickets or driver's license suspensions from cases from 10 or 15 years before they even went to federal prison. And so it was a question of addressing those issues. And one of the things that I was thinking about when you were talking to Ricky and Ricky was talking about going to community college and going to Queensboro Community College and how that really started him on his path. I represented clients who were trying to do the same thing. They were trying to go back to community college where go to community college in the first place. And one of the things that I didn't know that's really interesting is when you have to register for the selective service when you turn 18. So you have to register basically for the draft.

(31:43):
And if you do not register for selective service, you are not eligible to receive financial aid. Well, many people who end up incarcerated end up there because their lives are really unstable because their home life isn't great because they're moving around from one location to another. And in all of that, registering for the selective service gets lost. Sometimes people aren't graduating from high school, they're later getting the GED, and sometimes they miss the part of the high school guidance counselor telling you, you have to register for the draft or whatever it is. And so I would represent clients who just wanted to go to school and weren't able to get there because they didn't have financial aid to make it happen because of everything that had happened previously in their lives. So I was really blown away by Ricky's story and by his dedication and commitment to making it to community college, and then from there to undergraduate and pursuing his legal education because there's so many obstacles that stand in the way of people who are formerly incarcerated just to even get to that community college stage, just to get to the undergraduate stage in the first place,

Chay Rodriguez (32:46):
I think you make an amazing point in that so many things can kind of snowball into a problem that can impede you from really turning your life around. Because honestly, you're right. What happens when you're like, I only make minimum wage. I do have to pay these fees. I have to pay these tickets, I have to pay child support, and I'm trying to make more by going to school by getting some sort of higher education qualification certification. And now I can't even get the aid because of again, what happened in the past that I'm paying for. I think a story like Ricky is so amazing because not only does it talk about his ability to overcome that and progress, but it also points to his professors that have helped him and kind of given him that motivation that he needed and that extra step or that extra recommendation that he may have needed to get to where he is now. And I believe that you have some experience with that as well, correct?

Todd Berger (33:56):
Yeah, I do. Oftentimes students will come to me and talk about how they were justice impacted. Most students, I think not justice impacted in the way Ricky was with a fairly serious conviction. And then having been in prison, right with a 10 year sentence. But students who are listening to this, and I know that there are students out there who are just as impacted in a way that many students are in that they have prior arrests. Oftentimes there might be multiple prior arrests. They're usually for fairly kind of minor things, but things like disorderly conduct or drinking underage or A DUI, which I don't mean to minimize the significance of that, but it's not a 10 year robbery sentence. And the number one thing that I tell those students, and I think you heard this from Ricky, and I think Ricky was a hundred percent right based on my experience in terms of how you deal with this, you're going to go before the character and fitness committee, whatever state that you are in.

(34:53):
The number one most important thing is you need to be honest about what your prior criminal history is. The character and fitness committee I don't think has any interest in saying to people who've gone through law school, who've passed the bar examination, who have stayed out of trouble. You can't be a lawyer, but I do think they're interested in making sure that those who join the profession have put that behind them. And we want lawyers to be lull abiding. We want lawyers to be ethical. And making sure that those are things in your past I think is really important. If you lie, if you don't disclose things, that is not a reflection that wrongdoing is in your past. You are continuing to engage in wrongdoing by not telling the truth. And so I've testified before character and fitness committees on behalf of former students. Everyone that I have worked with over the years who's ever had justice impacting issues has always, as long as they've been open, been admitted to the bar, it might not happen right then and there.

(35:58):
They might want to see if there's drugs or alcohol involved that you take some time to get some treatment or it might take a little bit longer to do the evaluation process. But if you're open and honest, you've gone through law school and you've passed the bar, it's like you heard from Ricky, right? He remained hopeful throughout his entire journey. And there's no reason not to remain hopeful when you go before that board of bar examiner, so long as you're honest about what your past was. I think there's very much a future for people in the practice of law.

Chay Rodriguez (36:27):
You mentioned students coming to you. How would a student engage with a professor that they want to ask for their help for some sort of recommendation if they know that they might hit a bump in that character and fitness process?

Todd Berger (36:42):
Yeah, so a bit of a story. I had a student come to me who was Justice Impact, right? The student had been convicted, had done a fairly significant amount of time in prison. The conviction was later overturned. And the student came to me because at the time I was directing a criminal defense clinic. And because of their experience in the criminal justice system wanted to go to law school, they didn't want to have happen to other people. Their view of how the system had failed them. And so the student came to me and the student was sort of alluding to their interest in law school and why they wanted to do the criminal defense clinic. And it was obvious the student was trying to tell me something, but they did just tell me, and I've been above defender it for a long time, had a lot of tough discussions with people about things that they did or didn't do.

(37:32):
And honestly, it was really important in that relationship. And I finally just said to the student, look, I think you're alluding to some different things. What do you want to tell me? And it's okay. I want to hear what your story is. And so I think then the student told me, and I think from there, we ended up having kind a really meaningful kind of mentor-mentee relationship over their time in law school. So what I would tell people is be open with your professors. Tell them who you are. Tell 'em about your past. I think this, I can say I speak for every legal educator. I really can't say this is speak for every legal educator. We're here because of the students, right? We're here because we value our opportunity to teach students. This is why we get up in the morning. We want to work with students, and we have the greatest job in the world because we get to see you come into our office and start out and not necessarily know that you're going to succeed or know how you want to succeed.

(38:20):
And then we get to see you graduate and go off and just be amazing lawyers. And there's nothing more rewarding than that. And so we don't punish students who come to our offices and talk to us about their past. I think you're here. We want to not to have an obligation. We have a passion for working with students to make sure that whatever your dreams are, we do our very best to try and make those dreams a reality. So if you are justice impacted and you feel like you could meaningfully benefit from some mentorship or some relationship with the professor, don't be embarrassed about that. I can tell you that for all of us in this business, we just want to see you succeed. And if you tell us about your journey, we will do everything we can to make sure that whatever your experiences are, help you get to where you want to go.

Chay Rodriguez (39:08):
And hopefully this episode hammers that in. We want to get more people across the stage,

Todd Berger (39:14):
Absolutely. More people across the stage who work hard, who deserve to be across that stage dream of being across that stage. There's more than one Ricky out there, and you can make it happen too. Well, thanks Sha, for bringing us this interview. This is really terrific, really engaging, and I know our listeners are really going to enjoy it.

Chay Rodriguez (39:32):
Thanks, Todd, and thank you for going back and forth with me. I really appreciate it, and I love your perspective on everything. And a big thanks to Ricky as well. Of course, his conversation would not have happened without you, but thank you for being so open and honest and forthcoming about your thoughts and sharing your story with us.

Todd Berger (39:51):
Before we go, if you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. Be sure to share our podcast with your friends and fellow students. We want to hear from you, so send us your thoughts about the show or issues you'd like to hear about in a review. We at the A Law Student Podcast would like to express our thanks to our production team at the Legal Talk Network and the professionals at the A Law Student Division.