Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Cherie Clonan, Founder and CEO of The Digital Picnic, is transforming the landscape of digital media and workplace culture. Guided by her own late diagnosis and idenitification as an Autistic PDA woman, she's pioneering a new standard for workplaces that empower neurodivergent individuals to succeed on their terms.
In episode 49 of Classroom 5.0, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Cherie, to hear first hand how she's implementing everyday leadership practices and workplace policies that reflect her deep understanding of what it takes for neurodivergent individuals to thrive.
While traditional narratives frame PDA as an anxiety-driven response to everyday demands, Cherie, like me, challenges this reductionist view. Instead, she describes PDA as a complexity of her neurobiological wiring that fuels her creativity, autonomy, and fierce sense of justice.
I found myself wiping away tears and roaring with laughter as Cherie shared personal and professional anecdotes that vividly captured the fierce determination, creative problem-solving, and sharp humor that embody the strengths of PDA, and highlight her unstoppable drive as a leader fostering inclusive impact and innovation.
Learn more about Cherie, watch the full interview on YouTube, and explore the resources discussed by visiting the episode page here: https://www.marianepower.com.au/blog/49
If you liked this episode, please share it with a friend, or take a minute to rate and review on your favouritie podcasting platform!
Conversation Highlights:
00:00 Introduction and Origin Story
02:27 Understanding Neurodiversity and Late Diagnosis
05:20 Unmasking and Leadership
08:07 Creating a Psychologically Safe Workplace
11:21 The Dance of Authenticity and Boundaries
13:31 Masking vs. Compensation Strategies
16:39 Exploring Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)
27:06 Embracing PDA Leadership
30:32 Radical Inclusion in the Workplace
37:48 Creativity and Flow in Neurodivergent Teams
44:16 Impact Mindset and Legacy
Connect with Mariane:
IG : @marianepower
LinkedIn @marianepower
www.marianepower.com.au
Welcome to Classroom 5.0, a podcast helping you to design a future of learning, work and leadership that's both personally meaningful, and creates impact for a better world. Join host, CEO of The Posify Group Mariane Power in conversations that support Inclusive Impact. Expect topics and interviews that deep dive into what it takes to build a truly diverse and equitable world, and learn science backed skills and strategies that are helping our different kind of difference makers thrive.
Yay.
Yeah, yay, welcome Cherie
Okay, look, I'm gonna say I have got a little bit of my fan club girl thing out before we
even jumped on live, but I'm gonna do it for our audience sake because those who know me
well will know that this is a MasKareer highlight.
I have been absolutely championing
you and cheerleading from the sides for such a long.
with the work that you do at The Digital Picnic, but also just for you as a human and to
have you here in conversation today, speaking about neurodiversity, leadership, and just
what it takes to bring our workplaces into the modern day society, to be kind and to drive
impact.
I'm literally jumping out of my skin with enthusiasm.
So enough fan clubbing.
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
I'll throw over to you.
First and foremost, to introduce a little
about the origin story behind what brought you into The Digital Picnic, founding your
digital media marketing agency.
I guess the why behind your founder story.
Yeah, I was reflecting on this.
I've been reflecting on it a lot because, you know, we've just hit our 10 year birthday as
a company that felt like a celebration, you know, in and of itself.
But of course, it just kind of forces you to think back to, yeah, how it all began.
And I kind of like ended up laughing because I realized TDP's origin story was just PDA,
autistic woman energy, because I can just honestly actually remember the moment where I
thought,
something like this has to exist.
was sitting in, you know, the relevant tertiary qualifications and I was reviewing the
curriculum and it was just horrific with its, it was so outdated.
It was embarrassing.
I remember the lecturer himself describing himself as bored and uninspired and a little
bit embarrassed to present what he was presenting.
And I just thought, really?
What I was saying was that loud, you know, but even if he hadn't, we knew anyway, we could
look at the timestamps and just,
understand that what we were learning wasn't fresh.
So I remember in that moment, and I didn't know that I was an autistic woman in this
moment, but I remember thinking the moment I am in this industry and I've clocked enough,
you know, hopefully expertise, I'm going to launch something that is so much more
inspiring than what's on offer here.
And I want to fill like marketing, digital marketing knowledge gaps for really curious
humans who are lifelong learners at heart.
So
Yeah, that was that was sort of how it all began.
We just, you know, I clocked all of the experience.
I was out in the industry for over a decade past that kind of moment.
Got the experience that I felt like I, you know, needed to clock and then hit go on the
digital picnic and welcomed really great humans all over Australia to come and learn right
in the moment practical marketing.
Yeah, that's incredible.
I didn't know that about your university origin story.
Brilliant, that disruption, that disruption.
So you do speak quite openly about autism and being an autistic woman.
wonder if you could share with our listeners, many of whom are curious about
neurodiversity and are coming into the conversation really for the first time, and then
others who are really in the depths of understanding neurodivergent profiles.
So we've got a really broad listener base, but for you.
Having had a late diagnosis as well is my understanding of autism and understanding your
profile.
What's it been like to then get to know yourself through that lens of neurodivergent
strengths and struggles and how you show up in the world?
Yeah, it is a lot, you know, and especially to be late diagnosed, that felt like a lot,
but I don't try to sort of dwell on that too much because the reality is when I think
about it, maybe it was for the best because I think about being diagnosed in the 1980s, to
be really honest, I'm just not completely convinced I would have had a great time, you
know, with that experience.
I'm not sure, I can't go back in time, so I'll never know.
But yeah, there are parts of me that just think maybe it was for the better, that I sort
of like dodged that identification in the 80s.
So yeah, look, then you are diagnosed and to be really honest, sat in 12 months of
absolute silence following my identification because I think that's what probably honoured
my processing speed.
that's really genuinely how long it took actually a whole year, to just process.
it was like, going back in time and seeing situations and thinking, my Lord, you know,
could just literally remember particular situations where they're the moments I would have
loved to have known, you know, as an example, but for my team as well, some of my team
have
are still here now and have been at the digital picnic for as long as we've employed human
beings.
And I would say it's probably been huge for them as well to watch me four years into, you
know, the journey of employing them then recognize I'm an autistic woman.
And I would say it feels like an entirely different organisational leader now because you
just you you go through this huge
I guess just recognition of who and what you are and how you show up and move through the
world.
But you also unmask pretty rapidly.
It's like taking the bra off after a long day.
I just couldn't wait to get it off once I recognized and realized the plethora of ways
that I was masking as a leader before, you know, I got that.
Yeah, some people call it a piece of paper.
I would say it was so much more than that, you know.
So it's been huge.
And now I would say I'm just leaning into all of the strengths, you know, and also
forgiving myself for many of the challenges I go up against as a disabled leader.
And thankfully, luckily for me, I'm surrounded by a team who we just, we fill each other's
gaps, you know, and it feels.
like a pretty honest way, like an honest approach with regards to how to do that.
My team know where my strengths are and they definitely know what moments I'm like, I'm
out.
I'm not in on this conversation, please.
I could add no value, you know, so it's just, it feels good.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
I want to come back to unmasking in a little minute.
It's interesting because I was similar when I had, I think we must have received a
diagnosis around the same time.
And similarly, it took a year for me to integrate it through the lens of wanting to share
the journey, knowing it would be really helpful, but also wanting to honour my own process
and journey of doing that double click on some moments.
And I'm still doing that, to be honest, every day.
It's almost like a rebirthing of going, there's a new lens at which I'm looking at the
world through.
And I wanted to quickly ask you, I'm going to go a little bit off script for a minute,
because I know that you've got a very neuro inclusive workforce.
That's something that you pride yourself on and that I really admire and that many of your
team are coming into their own identity as well at the same time.
What's it like as a leader going through that identity journey yourself and the modeling
it takes to be able to be authentic and
I love that analogy of taking the bra off, but to be authentic and also hold boundaries.
Like what's that dance like with young people, many in your team are a bit younger, coming
into their journey.
Are there explicit conversations?
Is it kind of, see you, tell me more, tell me more.
Yeah, sure.
Look, really honestly, because I've gone through the diagnosis process myself, it's up to
them.
Like they can share if they want to.
They can leave it out if they prefer not to.
It's completely up to them.
In terms of boundaries, that is something I've especially had to get better and better at
because sometimes you can make a workplace so psychologically safe that it becomes unsafe.
moments where it's just a little bit of, hey, that's not fair, you know, those kind of
moments.
I think in terms of boundaries, that's sort of what springs to my mind first.
It's like, you know, I'm really proud and I'm forever going to commit to cultivating a
psychologically safe workplace, but I am as I'm doing this and moving my way through it
more and more, I'm recognizing boundaries are necessary.
Hmm.
sometimes with safety comes some sometimes unfair moments.
It's sort of like, I think about, you know, with my own children, I think I must have
been, and my husband is excellent, but for whatever reason, I was the safe person while my
kids were growing up.
And so I would see sometimes, you know, they're absolutely like just those super
dysregulated, like launch into mum kind of moments.
Yeah.
Yeah.
to infantilize a workforce here, but I would say if, if there's any way to compare,
sometimes I do cop that mom sort of safe thing as well at TDP where it's just like, hang
on a minute.
I know for a fact, if you were out there in a billion dollar, big Australian company
elsewhere, there's just no way you would, you would do this, you know?
So I have to have those little moments with myself and just, become like a bit of a
boundaries queen.
to be really honest and recognise that sometimes the penalisation, I guess, for super
psychologically safe approaches to work is that sometimes, yeah, we've just got to sort of
go, hang on, this is still a workplace, you know, and so on.
so, yeah, I've just, I've learnt to ask for what I need from my workforce.
And they know that they feel so safe with me in terms of...
as much as I know about and if I don't talk to me I'll do I'll do better you know and yeah
just sort of ask for like some non-negotiables for myself as well in return.
I love that inclusion of this, the fierce self-compassion.
It's funny, this morning I went down to get a coffee and I was listening to something that
you shared on social media about the 10th anniversary of TDP and your founder reflections.
And you were speaking to this idea of the transition from being nice to being kind.
So I'll share a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to listen to it, but that's
just sort of singing true in my mind right now.
And that kindness actually incorporates boundaries and it incorporates boundaries for
self.
and incorporates boundaries for your team to learn as well.
And for our listeners kind of to riff on this a little bit more, I think what I love about
what you're sharing there Cherie is also that we're moving into a period of time where
there is a shift in leadership expectations between generations in particular.
So where that expectation I think on the leadership gap that was there when we were kids
going into the workforce and I say kids, but you young adults, that our leaders should
somehow be really distant remote.
This next generation doesn't want that.
They want authenticity, they want vulnerability, they want to show up as their whole
selves.
And we as leaders are wanting to do the same.
And so this is a dance with curiosity and compassion and kindness to self and others to be
able to hold space for those hard conversations.
So I really love the iterative approach that you're taking there.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
Let's go back to masking for a minute, because that's really top of mind, especially for
the women that I speak to.
I want to know a little bit more about your unmasking journey.
And if you've done any reflections on the difference between for you, what masking feels
like versus say a really healthy compensation strategy, because
I heard you speak just before to the truth as much as we can focus on and it's important
to focus on our neurodivergent strengths.
There are genuine struggles that can show up as disability, particularly in a world not
built for our brains.
And compensation
strategies, healthy ones, are a really great way to navigate that.
So tell me a little bit for you the difference between masking, compensation, and what
you're learning.
Yeah, and look, you know what?
I'm still on this journey.
I don't know that I've completely unmasked at work.
And I will just also say, I'm not also convinced that Australian workforces, or globally,
but I'm here in Australia, you know, are they completely ready?
I'm just, I'm not completely sure.
That's the truth, you know, because I've witnessed heavily unmasked autistic women.
Mm-hmm.
through professional worlds and wow, what they go up against just in order to unmask like
that.
I'm not actually completely sure that I'm ready.
There are so many parts of my role that still require a mask.
A big one is workshop facilitation.
And I look after myself really well after that.
I know what to do there.
And the second one is people management.
to be really honest, like I do it in the most true to my autistic, you know, culture and
identity kind of way, but there's still a mask on because it's people management, you
know?
and I remember when, you know, I sort of was going through the diagnosis process, as an
autistic woman and she did invite me to circle back to have some conversations around PDA,
but she said, let's just get you to digest this and then I'll see you in 12 months.
and I want to talk to you about a potential PDA profile for you.
And so we did circle back and once she did sort of, it wasn't formal, there was no piece
of paper with the PDA recognition, but I know I am an autistic woman with a PDA profile.
And she said, how do you think this is going to change much for you?
And I thought, well, where does one start?
I'm going to have to unmask so hard to honor my nervous system.
And then I said, and I cried when I shared this with her, said, I think for me, sadly,
this means that people management has an expiry date for me because it is an every day,
not even wake every day set of demands that my nervous system can't do full time forever.
know?
very, that was, that was a huge kind of, yeah, realization.
So I guess in terms of unmasking versus like say compensation pieces and so on, for me, I
do just honestly come back to the spoon theory.
If I am putting on the mask, I do just recognise, well, how many spoons is that stealing
from me in this moment?
And what can I do to replace?
I just don't know if I can pretend that I'm going to at any point, maybe, I'm not sure,
you know, be able to complete.
take the mask off.
There are moments that it feels really safe for me to put a mask on, to be really honest,
you know.
And so what I do instead is just come back to the spoon theory and think, all right, this
is going to take about four spoons.
So what, how many times do I need to watch Moana when I get home tonight from work or
something like that to just get the spoon?
And so it's just, you know, it's
The compensation thing is just really leaning into that self-care piece of, I stole some
spoons from my autistic spirit today, how can I get them back?
And if it's not today, what does this weekend look like and so on.
If it's been a hard conversation, maybe it's a performance related thing at work that
really steals almost every spoon I have to be really honest with you.
I'm internally destroyed, to be really honest.
So I really have to go hard on that.
compensation type, you know, replacing of spoons on the other side of that.
Yeah.
Yeah, thank you.
I've got Moana wrapping around in my head right now, so just, I'm just gonna have a
moment, speaking of unmasking.
it.
Yeah, I love that description because I think there's almost been a pressure and an
expectation in the neurodivergent population, at least what I've seen in doing some of the
executive leadership coaching work that I do in our community of, okay, well now there's
almost like a performance of unmasking.
And so now how do I radically show up in my full neurodivergent personality?
And that's not safe.
We know from the research, I think it was 2023 Nancy Doyle's paper, I'll put it in the
show notes that,
64 % of people in the corporate workforce don't disclose.
And that's because of real lived experience of stigma, of associated workplace bullying
that comes, of real life consequences of losing jobs, having conversations that are
misplaced.
So I love your double click on the mask, being protective and safe at times.
For listeners who are, just to stay with this for a second, listeners who are unfamiliar
with the idea of masking or maybe don't have an experience of that, what might a behavior
that they see if you are masking, what's that difference?
So
absolutely.
It's pretty much putting, for me, my understanding of masking is it's sort of sometimes
pretending to be something you're not.
It's saying yes when you prefer to say no.
It's people please.
It's a foreign response to, you know, particular pieces.
You know, it's...
probably reading the room and recognizing you're not safe to be neurodivergent self.
So there might be some social situations I'm in where I'm like, they wouldn't be ready for
this jelly.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And then there are other social situations where I can recognize really immediately, I'm
really safe here and I can unmask heavily.
It's really different.
I suppose for me masking up,
there would be workplace conversations that if I were to have them unmasked, sometimes I
even think people would probably want to go down, like sometimes I worry, like would it,
would I be flagged as, is it harassment or something when I'm just giving direct literal
feedback in the way that my autistic brain would go in first draft mode.
Now,
I don't know that many workplaces are ready for my first draft.
That's the truth.
And so that's the mask that I'll forever wear, honestly.
And so what I'm doing instead is I'm not just putting a mask on.
It's back in COVID.
It's like a hazmat suit or something.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, honestly, I don't know that people would be ready for a first draft from me.
I'd have to be in a workplace with people who are
exactly even my brand of autism, you know, like just, yeah, direct, to the point, no
fluffing around, you know, and, and if I found those people, we're really kind, we're
really kind people.
And it is kind, we want to be kind in terms of the kindest thing we think we can do is be
honest, but not many people are ready for that.
So yeah, masking.
It's all of the things I described, but I do just want to add it's a recipe for
potential burnout, you know, because you're pretending to be something that you're not too
much and it's almost a full-time gig, you know, and so on.
Brace yourself for the inevitable burnout.
And so I'm just really grateful that I get to come home.
I open the door and I know my husband is ready for my fully unmasked version of me.
I don't want to say that I'm lucky because there's no way.
That's what I deserve, you know, and that's what he deserves as well.
Like, have this beautiful little agreement, you know, and I just, I'm so glad that I
don't, I don't know the last time I had to mask up in my marriage, you know, so that feels
good that no matter what happens in work, land and whatever, I can come home and be my
first draft self, you know, so yeah.
Yeah, I can relate to that.
Having a safe home is a real beauty and a gift.
And I think it also takes work.
It takes really vulnerable, honest conversations.
So I imagine that's also happening in your home, and I want to acknowledge and celebrate
that too.
Shout out to your hubby, by the way, if he's listening in.
It's a lot of work.
Well, neurodiversion families are a lot of work.
Yeah, and that's, we can have a conversation about that another day.
Yeah, want to come back, speaking when you're a divergent family, so I want to come back
to PDA if we could.
It's interesting that you say you didn't get a formalized piece of paper around that.
I'm actually really impressed that the therapist that you saw or the professional that you
saw for diagnosis knew to circle back on it.
It's quite new in Australia in terms of an adoption and is still
Unfortunately, in my experience from a clinical psychology perspective, spoken to as this
kind of a little bit like rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is known in our
community, but not really accepted because it doesn't sit in the DSM-5, which is the kind
of outdated diagnostic pathological model of neurodivergence.
so PDA for our listeners is technically known as pathological.
I say, don't even use the term enough because it's just so bad.
Pathological demand avoidance, right?
So in our family, we've got two PDA kids, which I only came to know about because of Casey
Elrich's work, who is beautiful.
And I'll drop a link in her, for her in the, in the show notes, but, but we say pervasive
desire for autonomy.
Cause that's how we've come to read it and understand it that anytime our kiddos have a,
particularly if they're stressed and they've been through periods of autistic burnout, but
anytime that there is a perceived demand or a threat to their sense of being in control.
And when they're unwell, that can be as simple as if I directly ask them to pick their
clothes off the floor in that moment, in that time.
That can result in a really big meltdown when they're not well versus then, you know, it's
like on a continuum.
But I wanted to ask your experience and expression of PDA as an adult woman and coming to
understand it,
through a more holistic lens rather than necessarily that disabling pathologizing.
This is a very extreme example of autism.
What's PDA like for you and what would you like to share about it?
yeah, what a beautiful introduction to this conversation because yeah, I'm like you, I
don't pathologize the PDA experience and it is heavily pathologized, you know, and when I
read up about it in a really with that really highly pathologized lens, it almost sounds
like CPTSD or you know, just I've even seen like, is it is it an avoidant an attachment
style or is it like it's just and all of these
disorder is another one that comes to mind.
Yeah, yeah.
that comes up and I'm like, it's just a completely different nervous system, to be really
honest.
And it's again, even a different type of culture and identity within that neurodivergent
sort of umbrella and so on.
So we move different, you know, and I sort of, think if I could share this, like I think
about my husband and a PDA woman is
the kind of woman you've literally never dated before in your entire life.
And I just, I am so glad that I married someone who's just this absolute icon.
He's just this hilarious ADHD man and he loves this PDA woman, you know, but I know that I
fascinate him and I destroy him.
Like I just, he's like, why?
You know, there's just so much.
toes.
He's got like a permanent dopamine high, right?
Maybe that's why my kids work for me.
I am like the permanent dopamine source to this man because he's just never aware of what
I'll do next.
You know, I think I can use words.
I'm interesting.
I'm fascinating.
I'm exhausting.
I'm hilarious.
You know, and he we, you know, met really young, but we did have a year long break.
And I remember when we found our way back to each other, he said, there are no other women
like you.
you are the most interesting person I've ever met and I don't not want this.
Like I, I want you, you know, and so I just, think that I'm, you know, we PDA women, we're
really interesting, you know, and there are hilarious moments.
You said before, like the request to pick up clothes from say the floor for me, it's just,
yes, that hyper need to control.
I, I
be devastated if anyone described me as a control freak, because it's just honestly not
true.
You know, I'm really not, but I do just have this absolute, a hyper need to be fully
autonomous, you know, and how that shows up sometimes this is my PDA humor kicking in, but
maybe your listeners will think, Cherie, this isn't funny.
But I remember.
way back when Dave and I were dating and I said, I really want to explore this particular
country.
And he's like, I've got no desire to go there.
And he's like, and I don't think you should either, you know?
And so that was it.
The demand was placed.
My flight, I was on the next flight out.
Barely even packed.
Didn't even pack appropriately, honestly.
That is brilliant.
I reckon you would have rowed a boat there quite frankly.
I would have swam the English channel equivalent honestly.
If you ever want something done, probably hack the PDA brain.
I was out there and look, dude, was he in some parts right?
Well, I was aggressively mugged, which is exactly what he said.
I landed, I was mugged within an hour.
and you know, it's just, it's, that piece where I, and then of course, because that
happened, I couldn't possibly call him to tell him what had happened.
You know, I was like, no, no, he doesn't need to know.
I've got no ability to tell him what's just happened.
I'll be fine.
You know, we're, brilliant.
We're just, we're interesting.
We're fun.
we're rebellious.
We're hilarious.
You know, we're built differently.
And then, so outside of dating, I just do want to say one more thing.
if you ever work for a PDA manager, just like the woman that you've never dated before,
we're the manager you've never worked for before.
We lead in a way you've never been led before.
And it's really interesting.
It's disruptive.
It's rebellious.
It's safe because, if you ever want to remove unnecessary demands, just go and find
yourself a PDA leader, you know, and we'll just say,
this sounds like a really unnecessary demand.
And so I've learned that my removal of demands that suit my, you know, my nervous system
have actually been really good for my workplace.
that's these days when I'm thinking about people describe me as being X, Y, O, Z.
I'm like, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm just selfishly removing demands for
myself.
And apparently this is benefiting a workplace.
Yeah.
I love so much of all of this.
Thank you for sharing.
And I've literally got tears.
If you're not watching this on YouTube, please do.
I'm wiping back tears
literally so predictable i'm telling you i and it's most hilarious isn't it the most
hilarious
It's just so many hilarious moments where I just think how lucky we are to be rolling with
the PDAs.
Life is interesting.
Yeah.
And they are going to change the world.
I agree with you.
Okay.
We're going to have to riff on this offline.
That's hilarious.
Speaking of changing the world.
I know so many people tuning into this episode will be desperately wanting to hear about
your neuro inclusion and your leadership journey, your workplace culture at TDP.
And I'm so glad that we've, we've got to this point with
with the context around disruption and that's actually really good for your nervous system
and therefore as a consequence, good for everybody else as well.
But could you share a little bit about what radical inclusion looks like for you in not
just your workplace, but also as you're moving around other workplaces and thinking about
a more inclusive future of work, what's showing up at the moment?
really, honestly, it just feels so simple to share.
But, you know, I understand that I've got the benefit of now what we've discussed, like a,
you know, a PDA profile, PDA autistic woman, I really think workplaces in the future, and
especially when we talked about hiring different generations, where to going to get
across, not just psychological safety isn't enough anymore, it's about
pairing that back with really well nervous systems at work in order to get the best out of
people.
And so I think leaders, whether you want to understand PDA or not, designing workplaces
that are good for nervous systems benefits all.
So wherever you can look at situations and think, does this feel like a really unnecessary
demand?
I would be doubling down on, well, then does it need to be there?
You know, so, me, my big 2025 focus is, extending on our psychological safety, which I do
think we're pulling off pretty well, honestly.
And for me, that's just not enough, you know?
I want to like move into a more sort of enhanced, sort of state there and really start to
honor nervous systems and how we, as an entire team and, know, so therefore like workplace
can look after.
nervous systems.
And then I hope we share more of these stories that will influence people who have
probably got much better resources to be able to do the same.
You know, but I just think there's a lot of unnecessary stuff that happens in workplaces
everywhere where I think, did that really need to go like that?
You know, and I've got big examples, and then I've got just simple ones.
I remember, I think it was even this year, actually, maybe earlier on this year,
It was just one of our work days in the office.
have six per month.
On this particular day, there were two people.
One was COVID positive without realizing it.
The second person I know, yep.
The second person was had saved for a really long time to go to Japan.
So they were one week out from their holiday.
So right, look at your face.
I just want to hug you.
The empathy, right?
know, so.
Your face was my response.
I walked in, I had been late to work, maybe by half an hour, just got caught in some
traffic.
And as soon as I walked in, I felt like, I don't know, Keanu Reeves from The Matrix.
just got hit back.
was hit by this, something's wrong here, you know?
And sort of quickly figured out that the person heading off on that overseas trip was
devastated because they were pretty sure they were probably, you know, going to end up,
yep.
Yeah.
And then of course, the other person who'd since gone home was devastated.
Devastated.
No, no way.
And so I said to the person heading overseas, please go home right now.
Spend the rest of this week home.
Keep yourself safe in the lead up to your international trip.
And then I brought in the leadership team and I just said, Hey, we need to never let this
happen again.
Like we need to
roll out a quick and easy policy that allows our team in the week prior to international
travel, I want them to be able to work from home for the full week.
that, you know, that they feel, I mean, just from a nervous system perspective, they feel
good that their holiday is going to actually happen.
And look, selfishly, I actually don't want to cop the resentment, the associated
resentment off the back of someone missing out on an opportunity like that.
because of me deciding that yes, you still need to be at work in the week before your long
planned for long saved up for holiday.
It's just unnecessary.
Now that's just one example, but I brought that to life in 20 minutes.
The policy was written up on the same day, launched the next, the team were just, it was
like that old El Paso ad like, you know, just like, like, that's how easy it is to look
after people.
I,
promise, especially younger generations, that's the stuff they respect more than a yearly,
sometimes big salary increase.
Or if you can do a series of things like that all year round, are really appreciated and
they will stick around.
We have retention rates double our industry standard because of micro moments like that
one.
So it's just...
look after the nervous systems.
My next big nervous system goal is how can I tackle working parents of school-aged
children when they get four weeks of annual leave per year and three months of school
holidays to navigate the math through math and the nervous system is completely destroyed
off the back of that.
So that's my next big goal for 2025.
can't wait to double click with you on that one.
And I also want to just come back to that for people listening in.
And Sri, I know this is a framework that you use as well.
It's that circles of concern of what's in my control, what's out of my control, what's in
my influence.
And I think about that moment and how a leader might respond.
And I think the typical response might have been to go towards in terms of policies and
procedures and protocols, how do we make sure that we keep this workplace, Seth?
We need to test everybody before they come into the room.
And I love that you went straight to the person in the center, you from that human
centered design piece of who is it that we really want to be looking after?
And it's that employee that was, that was going away and what, like, what a seemingly
simple intervention when you break it down into when you put the person who matters in the
center.
So thank you for sharing, because to me, that's such a, such a powerful example of
mattering at work.
And I think that we can take into our communities and schools as well.
It's, it's coming back to the.
that compassion piece, so thank you.
gosh, I can't believe how quickly time has gone.
I could sit and talk to you for hours, but I won't.
I do wanna quickly, before we go to our rapid five questions, ask you though about
creativity and flow, because it's been an area that I've been diving into.
And I'm really curious about creative processes, and particularly in our neurodiversion
community.
And I'm wondering if you've...
because I know you're a big pattern spotter, that's one of your strengths.
If you've spotted any patterns within yourself and or within your team or the people that
you come across who are highly creative in terms of that process, what are you noticing
that would be helpful to share?
Yeah, I'm noticing a lot because of that pattern recognition.
Yeah, honestly, I couldn't not because I'm heading up a creative agency, you know what I
mean?
Like, and, it's strategy and it's creativity and we're all meant to be coming together on
this.
And so I these days, just like to be honest about it all and say it doesn't, all of it
doesn't sit with one person.
We're meant to come together instead.
And sort of really almost, almost
not arrogantly, but just say, this is what I'm really good at.
How can I partner up with you because you're really good at this so that it becomes sort
of, you know, this thing that we are collaboratively really proud of.
And so I see this in action every single week.
It's as recent as yesterday.
So I'm after speaking with you, I'm presenting a lunch and learn masterclass today.
And I just
got sick of making it digital, you know, because it's not how my autistic brain thinks.
I wanted to draw the masterclass because I had it so clear in my mind and I knew if I
typed it into a Google doc or something like that, it just wouldn't do justice to what I
was envisioning.
And so I actually drew it, you know, it started pen, paper, I was visualizing this
emergency department that people were going to walk into to have their
low engagement diagnosed and then we were going to, you know, walk them through the ED
department.
And so I drew it all up and then I presented it to the most incredible senior content
specialist.
His name is Dane.
He's a powerhouse dyslexic content specialist within our workplace.
And I knew for a fact that I could go and present these drawings slash scramblings and so
on.
And he got it in a 15 minute handover.
that's two really strong strengths coming together, recognizing what I bring versus what
he can turn it into.
And at 12 o'clock today, I get to, you know, bring it all together.
And I'm actually so high.
I can't wait for 12 o'clock to present, you know, in a really different way.
Some really great teachings to people that will help their strategies in an hour.
And it was just so wonderful to see it all.
you know, come together in a way that felt better for both of us, you know?
So, yeah, I just, I just really would recommend, probably getting together as teams and
recognizing I've got strengths in these places and almost putting it into a bit of a
guide, you know, when you need this, you should partner up with dot dot dot, you know, and
so on.
I want to see more of that normalized, you know, I, a couple of weeks ago, sat in an
exploration call with a client.
And my processing speed just wasn't keeping up with what they were after.
I'll be really honest with you.
And I felt disabled in that moment.
My heart was pounding in this meeting.
just thought, I'm just not quick enough here.
I'm not understanding what you're saying.
It's coming to me kind of a little bit after.
Yeah, it was really delayed.
It was still in the meeting, but it was probably too delayed for them.
Now that wasn't a problem.
They didn't know that they didn't feel it.
And do you want to know why?
No, a bit of that.
Okay.
I'll tell you, I brought in a bonus mask and that was another, like a team member of mine
who has strengths in the spaces that I have deficits in.
So she was immediately picking up what they were asking for.
Speaking to that.
while she was speaking, my processing speed was catching up.
And then I was coming in with my big picture understanding of what they were actually
after.
So I was going in with this radical empathy type piece that she said she benefited from.
And it was like, actually walked out of that meeting with happy tears, you know, because I
just thought,
I really love how that went.
And I love that we both knew where our strengths were.
We didn't even have to say to each other, do you want to take this one or it just happened
so beautifully.
And I loved it.
So that's what I want for workplaces in the future.
don't want them to, I don't want anyone to have those heart pounding moments where you
think I'm not enough because I am, I just needed two to three minutes.
And then she could do the immediate stuff that
Her brain just graphs so quickly and then she needed me to come in with my, so what we're
saying is dot dot dot.
And it was usually a pretty highly empathic response, a pretty good read of the room.
I just needed two to three minutes.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's brilliant.
I love it for so many reasons.
One, because it touches on the concept of group flow.
think there's a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of focus in creativity and innovation around
individual flow concepts, but the magic that happens with group flow when you pull people
together and that space in between, that's really, magic is the only word that I can use,
chemistry magic, it's got an ethereal quality to it that's kind of hard to.
but you can feel it when it's there.
And the second reason I love what you're sharing and it's why I'm doing the work that I'm
doing in terms of executive coaching for neurodivergent professionals and helping people
to understand that just like we've moved through an appreciation of why it might be
helpful to know your strengths, why it might be helpful to know your personality.
It's so helpful to know your brain and your nervous system because then you can partner
with people that compliment you.
So that's a brilliant example.
Thank you, selfishly.
get to really riff on that in my little geeky space when I'm doing my rabbit hole deep
dives.
Yeah, thank you for sharing.
It's super cool.
All right, let's do the rapid fire.
I've asked all of my guests across the four series, actually, these questions and I'm
collating to see where the commonalities and differences are.
So it's just whatever comes to mind first and foremost, but the first one is what does it
mean to you if you think of somebody who's got
and impact mindset.
Impact mindset for me is anyone who focuses on transformation over transaction.
Transaction just feels it's not impactful.
But when you actually focus on transformation, that's where the impact is.
I love that.
Yes.
I should say, I felt a bit cheeky asking you that question because you are such a leader
of impact and I'll share in the blog if anybody's watching and listening some links to
other conversations I know you've had with people to share both the small and the mega
moments of change that you've crafted in your leadership journey.
So I just want to acknowledge and appreciate you for that.
That was a beautiful response.
What about inclusive impact?
I think for this one, takes rebels, you know, to be inclusive is to be rebellious.
You've got to challenge the status quo.
You've got to be a bit, you know, industry disruptive.
And I guess like, you know, something that pairs up with that well is courage.
You know, it's not easy.
It's not actually, it's actually not easy to be inclusive in a world that's honestly
designed for the neuro majority, to be really honest.
So it takes the rebels and the courageous folk, you know.
Yeah, beautiful.
If you were to imagine a future, and especially through that lens of being a parent as
well, a future where we do have a more inclusive world, communities, schools, workplaces,
what do you see?
What do you envisage?
I really do think it's going to come back to designing places, settings and so on in a
more low demand way.
You know, you can still achieve a lot in a low demand environment.
had the best childhood in a completely low demand home by a solo parent, autistic PDA dad,
you know, so I've only grown up in a low demand environment.
And if, if people need the
whatever's like I got that near perfect T all the things that society wants people to get
that apparently means a lot to a lot of people.
So I was never not benefiting from a low demand environment.
And I'd love to see settings getting around this low demand, you know, design workplace
design, to be really honest, I think it's needed.
Yeah, especially as the pace of the world just seems to be getting so much faster.
I couldn't agree more.
What about for those who are wanting to sort of dip and dive into neuro inclusion in
particular, are there some books, podcasts, other leaders, yours obviously, duh,
everything that Cherie Clonin puts into the world, get amongst it, but who would you
recommend?
Or what would you recommend?
everyone, but I do, I mean, and now it's a little sad to say this, but it would be
NeuroTribes that had a really big impact on me as a book.
You know, it just felt like I finally realized what cultural group I belong to, to be
really honest.
And I felt really proud.
It really was the book that kicked off my neurodivision pride.
But to be really honest, to step outside of this door right now, there's a little library
just nearby and there are so many books within our library that are by
incredible autistic authors, neurodivergent authors, ADHD, dyslexic, dyscalculic, know,
yeah, the list goes on.
That lived experience, yeah.
I'm also a big fan of neuro-tribes.
was cool.
Finding your neuro kin.
It's a big part of the journey as well.
And then the last one, it's a big one, is what does it mean for you to live a meaningful
life?
I think the meaningful life for me comes down to legacy.
That's something that my dad really drilled into me.
it sounds for some people, think it sounds a bit sombre or something.
It's not for me, but he always said, well, imagine what people would say at your eulogy.
You know what I mean?
Or even if not standing up on the, I don't know, the little whatever people stand up on at
a funeral, would be just what are people going to say as your life sort of.
you know, comes to an end and I'd really hope that for as many people as I've come across
that they've had a good interaction with me.
So that meaningful life has to have a piece of legacy to it.
And I think in terms of how I make it meaningful at TDP, is just truly that if money comes
into my hands, I have committed to doing good things with it, you know, so.
I'll do that for the rest of TDP's days.
It means we won't be as profitable as other companies.
couldn't care less.
I need to do good things with the money that comes through my hands.
love that.
Your dad probably didn't even realize, but this is actually positive psychology
intervention, that eulogy piece.
yeah, yeah, it's what yeah, please do.
I'll send you some papers or some, know, you know, me the big geeky deep dive into all
this fun stuff.
Yeah, it's it's got really rigorous data around how effective that intervention is in
terms of supporting people with their purpose piece and and having to think about Yeah, it
does around what life
what life is all about to move through existential crisis.
It's got clinical benefits, it's got functioning to flourishing benefits.
So go dad.
And I love that cause you, yeah.
And your legacy is live in action.
So thank you.
It's been such, such a privilege to sit in conversation with you today.
And I hope it's not the last.
I will be cheering from the sidelines for forever and a day and directing people your way.
But I wonder if people do want to keep in touch, what's the best way to follow your work
and the work of TDP.
I I know, but I'm going to throw it to you.
Yeah, okay.
Look, I love LinkedIn the most.
I'm an introvert.
So that would be my favorite social media platform.
I think it's just such a diverse platform, which is so nice when you think about the other
platforms with a real lack of diversity.
The only problem with LinkedIn is I'm not great in DMs.
As a PDA woman, I just get honestly 50 plus different sales messages every single day,
which is
far too much for me.
And unfortunately I lose the meaningful DMs.
So if anyone wants to actually connect, would be Instagram DMs.
I'm available there because there's no horrible sales pitches, know, so on.
So yeah, they'd the two places, LinkedIn and Instagram.
Thank you, I'll throw the links into the show notes as well.
this is awesome.
Cherie, you're the best.
Thank you so much for joining us and to our listeners.
Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Classroom 5.0, our Neuropeak series.
I hope you've enjoyed it and appreciate you for taking time to consider what it means to
drive inclusive impact.
We'll see you next episode.