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Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine offer a different way to understand the body, especially when it comes to chronic pain, pelvic floor dysfunction, stress, digestion, anxiety, inflammation, nervous system dysregulation, and unexplained symptoms.
In this episode of hol+, Dr. Taz sits down with Dr. Jordan Barber, clinician, educator, published researcher, licensed acupuncturist, and author of Thinking in Chinese Medicine: A Patient’s Guide to Acupuncture, Herbs, and Healing, for a grounded conversation about what Chinese medicine actually is, why it has been misunderstood in the West, and how it can help us see chronic pain, pelvic floor dysfunction, stress, symptoms, and whole-body health through a more connected lens.
In this episode of hol+, Dr. Taz sits down with Dr. Jordan Barber, clinician, educator, published researcher, licensed acupuncturist, and author of Thinking in Chinese Medicine: A Patient’s Guide to Acupuncture, Herbs, and Healing, for a grounded conversation about what Chinese medicine actually is, why it has been misunderstood in the West, and how it can help us see chronic pain, pelvic floor dysfunction, stress, symptoms, and whole-body health through a more connected lens.
Together, they explore why Chinese medicine is not just acupuncture, herbs, or “energy work,” but a way of thinking. Dr. Barber explains how Traditional Chinese Medicine looks at the whole person, including sleep, digestion, emotions, stress, relationships, movement, pain patterns, and the way someone experiences life. He also breaks down how the word qi became simplified into “energy,” why that translation can be misleading, and why Chinese medicine is often more practical, physiological, and science-informed than many people realize.
Dr. Barber shares his own path into Chinese medicine after working in IT, living through 9/11 in New York City, and experiencing chronic health issues that conventional care did not resolve. After trying acupuncture, Chinese herbs, and dietary changes, he saw a major improvement in his recurring sinus issues and began to understand health through a completely different framework.
If you’re listening to this and thinking, “My symptoms feel connected, but no one is helping me connect the dots,” join the Circle here: 👉 https://holplus.co/circle
Chinese medicine is not just about needles. It is about patterns, relationships, the nervous system, circulation, metabolism, pain signals, emotional stress, and the body’s ability to return to balance. In this conversation, Dr. Taz and Dr. Barber discuss why chronic disease is often connected to the mind, why stress can reshape the body, and why patient agency is such a central part of healing.
They also explore how Chinese medicine approaches chronic pain, including biomechanics, inflammation, central sensitization, scar tissue, nerve entrapment, neuromodulation, dry needling, electroacupuncture, and vagus nerve stimulation. Dr. Barber explains how acupuncture may help regulate pain signals and support the body’s ability to shift out of a chronic stress state.
Dr. Taz and Dr. Barber also take a deeper look at pelvic floor dysfunction, a condition that can affect both women and men in ways many people do not recognize. They discuss hidden signs such as urinary leaking, pelvic pain, pain after bowel movements, tailbone pain, hip pain, back pain, erectile dysfunction, painful sex, and symptoms that may be dismissed or misunderstood for years.
This episode also explores why TikTok herbal advice can be risky, why Chinese herbs should be personalized, and why the question “What are the best Chinese herbs?” is often the wrong place to start. Dr. Barber explains why ginger may help one person and aggravate another, why formulas are traditionally customized, and why Chinese medicine has always been rooted in matching the treatment to the person.
If you are navigating chronic pain, pelvic floor symptoms, stress, nervous system dysregulation, digestive issues, unexplained symptoms, or curiosity about acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine, this episode offers a grounded, science-informed, and deeply practical way to understand what your body may be trying to communicate.
Learn more about support related to this conversation:
Chinese Medicine: https://holplus.co/services/chinese-medicine/
Acupuncture: https://holplus.co/services/acupuncture/
Integrative Mental Health: https://holplus.co/services/integrative-mental-health-services-for-emotional-wellbeing/
Arthritis / Chronic Joint Pain: https://holplus.co/conditions/arthritis-chronic-joint-pain/
About The Guest:
Dr. Jordan Barber is a clinician, educator, author, published researcher, and licensed acupuncturist known for explaining Chinese medicine without mysticism or oversimplification. His published work includes research on acupuncture and dry needling in the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. He is a former faculty member in bioscience and acupuncture, serves on the NCCAAOM AI Task Force, and is the author of Thinking in Chinese Medicine: A Patient’s Guide to Acupuncture, Herbs, and Healing. His work focuses on pain, pelvic floor dysfunction, psychosocial medicine, and helping bridge Chinese medicine with modern clinical understanding.
Dr. Jordan Barber is a clinician, educator, author, published researcher, and licensed acupuncturist known for explaining Chinese medicine without mysticism or oversimplification. His published work includes research on acupuncture and dry needling in the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. He is a former faculty member in bioscience and acupuncture, serves on the NCCAAOM AI Task Force, and is the author of Thinking in Chinese Medicine: A Patient’s Guide to Acupuncture, Herbs, and Healing. His work focuses on pain, pelvic floor dysfunction, psychosocial medicine, and helping bridge Chinese medicine with modern clinical understanding.
About Dr. Taz:
Dr. Tasneem Bhatia, also known as Dr. Taz, is a triple board-certified integrative medicine physician, bestselling author, and founder of hol+, a multi-location integrative medicine practice.
Learn more: https://doctortaz.com/about
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Host: Dr. Taz; Produced by ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)
Chapters
00:00 Pain, Suffering, and Changing Perception
00:19 Meet Dr. Jordan Barber
00:39 Chinese Medicine and the Mind Body Connection
01:21 Dr. Barber’s Research and Background
01:46 Dr. Taz Introduces the Episode
02:07 Dr. Taz’s Personal Connection to Chinese Medicine
02:53 From IT to Acupuncture After 9/11
04:09 How Acupuncture Changed Dr. Barber’s Health
05:28 Dr. Taz’s Healing Journey with Chinese Medicine
06:59 Acupuncturists, Herbalists, and Chinese Medicine Credentials
10:18 How to Choose a Chinese Medicine Practitioner
11:31 What Chinese Medicine Really Is
12:36 Health, Disease, and the Chinese Medicine Model
13:29 Dr. Taz Introduces The Circle
14:14 Is Chinese Medicine an Energetic System?
15:06 Why Chinese Medicine Is Not Just Energy Work
16:31 Acupuncture, fMRI, and Real Physiological Effects
17:36 Why Chinese Medicine Should Not Be Called Alternative
19:07 A Brief History of Chinese Medicine
21:51 How Chinese Medicine Came to the West
23:01 Lineages, Formulas, and Regional Herbal Traditions
24:12 Why Custom Herbal Formulas Matter
25:05 Bitter Herbs, Capsules, and the Role of Taste
26:11 Qi, Shen, Symptoms, and Diagnosis Explained
27:19 Why Chinese Medicine Connects Chronic Disease to the Mind
28:37 The Eco-Psycho-Social Model of Disease
29:10 Patient Agency and the Role of the Doctor
30:21 Choosing Joy While Suffering
30:57 Neuroplasticity and Changing Pain Perception
32:07 Simple Levers for Changing Health and Suffering
34:44 How Chinese Medicine Approaches Chronic Pain
35:30 Biomechanics, Inflammation, and Central Sensitization
37:12 Vagus Nerve Stimulation Through the Ear
38:22 Electroacupuncture and Neuromodulation
39:38 How Many Treatments Does It Take?
40:18 Pelvic Floor Dysfunction Explained
41:09 How Common Pelvic Floor Dysfunction Is
43:28 Hidden Signs of Pelvic Floor Dysfunction
44:24 How the Pelvic Floor Connects to the Whole Body
45:16 Dry Needling and Pelvic Floor Treatment
46:00 Dr. Taz’s Achilles Injury, Gait, and Pelvic Compensation
47:17 Why There Are No Universal Top Chinese Herbs
48:18 Why Gen Z Is Turning to Chinese Medicine
49:43 The Risks of TikTok Wellness Advice
50:31 Dr. Barber’s Hope for Chinese Medicine
51:16 Integrating Chinese Medicine Into Healthcare
52:06 Dr. Barber’s Book and How Clinicians Think
54:14 The State of Chinese Medicine Research
55:59 Advice for People Curious About Chinese Medicine
57:06 Where to Find Dr. Jordan Barber
57:30 Keeping a Calm Mind and Joyous Heart
58:36 Stillness, Qigong, Tai Chi, and Seasonal Practices
59:17 Dr. Taz’s Closing Thoughts on Chinese Medicine
Creators and Guests
Host
What is hol+ with Dr. Taz MD | The Future of Medicine is Holistic?
hol+ with Dr. Taz MD is redefining modern medicine through a comprehensive, evidence-based holistic approach; integrating functional medicine, integrative medicine, and time-tested healing systems to treat the whole human, not just symptoms.
Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.
At the heart of hol+ is a revolutionary framework: the Five Body Map- physical, mental, emotional, energetic, and social/community bodies that create whole health. This whole-human approach connects hormone imbalances, gut dysfunction, microinflammation, cortisol dysregulation, metabolic disease, autoimmune conditions, perimenopause, and stress-driven illness to the full spectrum of who we are; body, mind, and spirit.
Each episode explores Dr. Taz’s original clinical frameworks ;The Cortisol Loop, Microinflammation, and The Invisible Load alongside conversations with leading experts, celebrities, and thought leaders including Sophie Grégoire Trudeau, Katherine Schwarzenegger, Cameron Mathison, Carol Alt, Jane Seymour, Tamsen Fadal, and Kris Carr.
Topics include hormone health, gut health, GLP-1 and metabolic therapy, thyroid dysfunction, weight loss, inflammation, autoimmune disease, mental and emotional wellness, energetic health, and the future of holistic medicine.
This is the show where science and spirit converge- driving health, happiness, relationships, and family ecosystems.
Want to go deeper? Join Dr. Taz’s private community, the hol+ Circle ; medicine beyond the exam room. (holplus.co/circle)
A 2025 Webby Award honoree, recognized alongside the Mel Robbins Podcast in the 29th Annual Webby Awards, hol+ is built on the foundation of Super Woman Wellness, which surpassed 1 million downloads over 8 years.
This is medicine beyond the exam room. Welcome to hol+
35P1 Hol+ S06E11 - Dr. Jordan Barber - Audio - ClipGrowth.com
[00:00:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can change the way you perceive things. So you can dampen pain signals. You [00:00:05] may still suffer, but you can lessen its blow. You can take agency over what happened [00:00:10] and try to make it more palatable.
[00:00:13] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:00:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you lost your leg, you [00:00:15] lost your leg. It's not gonna grow back. You can still smile in the day. You can still watch that sunset, but you [00:00:20] still may suffer, but you bring meaning to life 'cause life is more than just the meat bag that you occupy.[00:00:25]
[00:00:25] Dr. Taz: Dr. Jordan Barber is a clinician, educator, author, and published [00:00:30] researcher known for explaining Chinese medicine without mysticism or [00:00:35] oversimplification. Chinese medicine, most chronic disease comes from the mind.
[00:00:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: People don't [00:00:40] like to hear that. However, Chinese medicine gives you agency. It makes you [00:00:45] responsible.
[00:00:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: We say the heart is the emperor. If the emperor is content and happy, everything [00:00:50] is ruled with regularity and everything is good. If the emperor's agitated, he's gonna do [00:00:55] crazy things. He's gonna yell, he's gonna scream, he's gonna behead people, whatever. Your chi becomes deranged and in the [00:01:00] way. If you keep a peaceful mind and you keep a joyous heart, you should not [00:01:05] have all the diseases of stress.
[00:01:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you don't enjoy your life, you have this negative belief system where you are [00:01:10] constantly secretly wishing that bad things are happening.
[00:01:13] Dr. Taz: His published research includes studies on [00:01:15] the efficacy of acupuncture and dry needling in the Journal of Medical Acupuncture. He is a [00:01:20] former faculty member in bioscience and acupuncture, and serves on the NCCAOM [00:01:25] AI Task Force.
[00:01:27] Dr. Taz: He's also the author of Realigning [00:01:30] Medicine: A Guide for Healthcare Practitioners Building Sustainable Value-Driven [00:01:35] Practices. Please join me in welcoming Dr. Jordan Barber to the show.
[00:01:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: This episode is [00:01:40] sponsored by Hol+, a holistic health platform built around education, [00:01:45] personalization, and integrative care.
[00:01:47] Dr. Taz: Hol+ blends holistic, integrative, and [00:01:50] functional medicine clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this [00:01:55] podcast, so you're not just treated, you're informed. The platform also [00:02:00] includes holistic health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support [00:02:05] your body at the root level.
[00:02:08] Dr. Taz: Hol+ is holistic healthcare [00:02:10] designed for real life. Visit us at Hol+.co
[00:02:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: to learn more about [00:02:15] the platform. Again, that's H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O.
[00:02:19] Dr. Taz: All right, Dr. [00:02:20] Jordan, I'm super excited to have you here because Chinese medicine [00:02:25] is a huge part of my personal healing journey, and it's actually a significant part of [00:02:30] our practices at Hol+.
[00:02:31] Dr. Taz: We actually bring some meridian evaluation, Chinese medicine [00:02:35] evaluation into what we do to help us sort of understand what's going on with the patient, and we [00:02:40] have acupuncturists on the team, herbalists, all the things. So huge fan [00:02:45] of the field. You know, it is ... I always say, I always preface so many things and say it's my [00:02:50] favorite system of medicine out of all of the ones that I've studied.
[00:02:53] Dr. Taz: So I'm excited to have you here because you [00:02:55] live, breathe Chinese medicine day in and day out. Talk to us a little [00:03:00] bit about what attracted you to Chinese medicine and how your practice has developed in the [00:03:05] years since.
[00:03:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I'm excited to talk about this, and obviously it is my life, like you said. Yeah.
[00:03:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: So [00:03:10] I can talk forever. Um, you know, if you've ever seen the movie Office Space?
[00:03:13] Dr. Taz: Yes.
[00:03:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: I feel like that's my life, [00:03:15] right? Ah. I started in IT. Um, and-
[00:03:18] Dr. Taz: IT?
[00:03:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, IT. Okay. Networking.
[00:03:19] Dr. Taz: [00:03:20] All right.
[00:03:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, always was a weird kid, so you know, I had, I guess, predilections [00:03:25] to herbal medicine and everything else. Mm-hmm. I had some stomach issues when I was, like, 15, and I remember taking some [00:03:30] Ayurvedic herbs.
[00:03:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, and uh, I went through 9/11. You know, I was there. [00:03:35]
[00:03:35] Dr. Taz: You were here in the city.
[00:03:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: I was, I was- Okay ... there at the Trade Center. Oh, wow. So you know, and I was 21.
[00:03:39] Dr. Taz: [00:03:40] Okay.
[00:03:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: I was already dealing with health issues, but at that point I was like, "I don't know if [00:03:45] corporatism is where I wanna be. I like computers. I like systems and networks," which if you read [00:03:50] my book, you'll kind of understand, um, that Chinese medicine is all about these interrelationships- Yeah
[00:03:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: and these kind of [00:03:55] networks. Um, so you know, I had all the standard stuff, surgeries, all the, [00:04:00] all the strange things to try to make myself feel better. I was still suffering. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:04:05] looking back, I was burning the candle at both ends. I was living off food carts down in FiDi. Was [00:04:10] doing everything wrong. But within one month of trying acupuncture, which strange, I woke up in a [00:04:15] dream with the word acupuncture.
[00:04:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: And I was like, "I know that exists, but is that real?"
[00:04:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: And this was like 2002. [00:04:20] Yeah. So I'm like, "I don't even know how to find it. Are these people [00:04:25] licensed?" Um, I went, but within one month I was about 80% better. Wow. The 20% after [00:04:30] that was a long journey.
[00:04:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:04:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: But I was like, "Okay." What was better?
[00:04:32] Dr. Taz: What, what specifically got better
[00:04:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: for you?
[00:04:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I had a lot [00:04:35] of, like, uh, reoccurring sinus issues.
[00:04:36] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:04:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: That just would not go away, and when it's ... When you're [00:04:40] constantly sick, your life is drained from you. Yeah. You know, I had sinus surgeries. You know, I, I did all the [00:04:45] things. Nothing worked. But- Change of, um, diet. [00:04:50] I stayed away from dairy for a while, took some herbs, and, and had [00:04:55] acupuncture obviously.
[00:04:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: And w- within a month, I was like mostly... I was able to [00:05:00] live. Mm.
[00:05:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Which for a 21-year-old, 22-year-old, that's all I was looking [00:05:05] to do. You know, meanwhile, dealing with where do I wanna be, um, you know, how can I [00:05:10] actually have a life worth living? Yeah. 'Cause 9/11 kinda made me have a perspective of saying, "If I just [00:05:15] died in that building today serving," for lack of a better term, "corporate masters, I don't know if that's the [00:05:20] life I wanted."
[00:05:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:05:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: So, um, yeah, I, I went to Chinese medicine and realized there was [00:05:25] no industry
[00:05:26] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:05:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: and that was the worst financial decision for the longest time.
[00:05:29] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:05:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:05:30] But it all turned out to be fine.
[00:05:32] Dr. Taz: So where did you s- where did you... So our [00:05:35] timing is similar by a few years. So I was going through my health [00:05:40] crisis, I was like 25, 26 at the time.
[00:05:43] Dr. Taz: By 28, I was done with [00:05:45] the conventional, 28, 29, I was sort of like m- had exhausted all the medical options. Had been [00:05:50] to a ton of doctors over the course of 18 months trying to find answers, and had gone to [00:05:55] this weekend conference in holistic medicine which opened me up to Chinese medicine, [00:06:00] right? Like, I didn't even know it existed, right, going through regular medical school.
[00:06:03] Dr. Taz: And so [00:06:05] I sought out, you know, Chinese medicine practitioners, and, you know, their whole [00:06:10] way of interpreting and talking about me in that particular instance was just [00:06:15] so different, you know, from all the experiences I had had and all my training. And it was like, I just, you know, I tell [00:06:20] the story often, and I'll tell it again, but, like, you know, this older Chinese medicine practitioner, [00:06:25] glasses, the whole thing, you know, is, like, waving his finger at me, and he's like, [00:06:30] "Bad.
[00:06:30] Dr. Taz: Bad chi. Very bad chi." I'm like, "What? Wait, what does that mean? What does that mean, I have bad chi?" Mm-hmm. [00:06:35] Well, you know, again, they really put me on the path of healing. I started acupuncture. I [00:06:40] got better. You know, again, health is an unfolding journey. Mm-hmm. I learned more about myself over the years [00:06:45] and started to turn things around, but their system of thinking and the way they thought about [00:06:50] things was unlike anything else.
[00:06:52] Dr. Taz: Ayurveda might come close, but was unlike [00:06:55] anything that I had really, you know, studied or looked at. And, you know, I [00:07:00] realized there's a place for it in the medical model, you know? And there's an important place for it because it [00:07:05] does connect the dots between systems and emotions and organs and tissues and [00:07:10] all these different things.
[00:07:11] Dr. Taz: And so, you know, I set about looking for how to train [00:07:15] and what to do, so I ended up going out west and learning acupuncture there and, [00:07:20] uh, some herbal medicine, but didn't go to the extent that you did where you're, like, a doctor of Oriental [00:07:25] medicine. Can you explain the different credentialing of Chinese medicine practitioners?
[00:07:29] Dr. Taz: 'Cause I think [00:07:30] that's important 'cause you have acupuncturists, herbalists, and then you have doctors of Oriental medicine. [00:07:35]
[00:07:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the first caveat I would give is we're a young field.
[00:07:38] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:07:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: So it's a little [00:07:40] all over the place.
[00:07:41] Dr. Taz: Mm. Interesting.
[00:07:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: But your, your- I don't want to say basic. Basic is [00:07:45] not the right word, but the entry level practitioners, the standard acupuncturists, um, depending on states [00:07:50] that may mean that they also studied herbal me- herbal medicine or they just specialize in acupuncture.
[00:07:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Um, and [00:07:55] that's your licensed acupuncturist. That's generally the term that's used in most states. Right. Then you [00:08:00] have, um, a professional doctorate, which a lot of people do, and that's, like, an expert [00:08:05] generalist. Um, so that's just going a little beyond studying and just kind [00:08:10] of having ... The focus really is more understanding Western medicine even more.
[00:08:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: We have to study Western [00:08:15] medicine and Eastern medicine because we exist in the 21st century. Right. Mm-hmm. But that's more of systems-based [00:08:20] medicine, understanding how to really integrate with the standard medicine. And [00:08:25] then there's the DAOM, which is a two or three year, depending how quickly you want to do it, um- [00:08:30] Kind of expert in field with research literacy.
[00:08:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ah, okay. And that's kind of what I did. Which [00:08:35] means glutton for punishment. Right. Any of these two, yeah. There's no, you don't get paid more. There's nothing special. Yeah. And for [00:08:40] me, my focus was on pain and something called, uh, psychosocial-
[00:08:43] Dr. Taz: Okay ...
[00:08:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: um, medicine or [00:08:45] psychosocial phenomena.
[00:08:46] Dr. Taz: Gotcha.
[00:08:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, which we could talk about, but it's really just fancy way of talking about Chinese [00:08:50] medicine.
[00:08:50] Dr. Taz: Gotcha.
[00:08:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: So that's kind of what the field looks like now as far as herbalists. Some states require you to be [00:08:55] an herbalist to, to practice. Some states, they weren't really that interested in herbal medicine- [00:09:00] Yeah ... so they just said, "Here's acupuncture, and, you know, if you wanna do herbs, maybe that's okay."
[00:09:03] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:09:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:09:05] there are certifications at different levels, um, and that's done by [00:09:10] the National Coalition of Chinese Medicine. Uh, I think they recently changed their name to- [00:09:15] Mm-hmm ... say NCCAOM. There's a new one, I think NC- NICOM. I'm not really sure. Got it. But that's where you [00:09:20] can find those people. They do the diplomat status.
[00:09:22] Dr. Taz: Gotcha.
[00:09:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: But that's not always required in every [00:09:25] state. So that's what I mean. It's very messy across the board- Mm ... because we're a young profession. And it [00:09:30] does c- create some kind of, I guess, quality control issues. Mm. But we are kind [00:09:35] of at a new resurgence. We are really starting to get it together as a profession even though we [00:09:40] are shrinking in schools.
[00:09:41] Dr. Taz: Oh, really?
[00:09:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: But the ones that will survive are the ones that are really creating [00:09:45] quality practitioners. So we're in a, a change, but yeah, there's a lot of schools [00:09:50] that have been closing sadly.
[00:09:51] Dr. Taz: Interesting. Why do you think they're closing?
[00:09:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: A lot of them were kind of, um, [00:09:55] private schools.
[00:09:55] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:09:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? And they had a lust for Chinese medicine, but not [00:10:00] the desire to deal with Title IX and Title IV and all these other things, and all the systems that were required.
[00:10:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: And it [00:10:05] gets more and more complex- Exhausting. Yeah ... and exhausting. Yeah. And then with the future proposed changes [00:10:10] in student loans, um, it kind of shrinks that availability to [00:10:15] finance the whole thing.
[00:10:16] Dr. Taz: Got
[00:10:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: it. So Chinese medicine right now, along with many other professions, [00:10:20] isn't necessarily listed on the list of postgra- uh, what is it?
[00:10:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: Graduate, [00:10:25] um, allotments of the amount of money that you can have with the proposed changes in the master's degree [00:10:30] programs.
[00:10:30] Dr. Taz: Got
[00:10:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: it. So it's a mess. But I stay away from all of that now. From
[00:10:34] Dr. Taz: all of that.
[00:10:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: I [00:10:35] used to be very involved- Right ... and, um, I just wanna treat the people.
[00:10:38] Dr. Taz: Well, for a consumer who's [00:10:40] interested in Chinese medicine, right, or, or even acupuncture, is there something they should be looking [00:10:45] for?
[00:10:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: So as long as the person is licensed, that means they have passed the exam and the state has [00:10:50] qualified them to be, uh, you know, competent at what they do. So that's your, your [00:10:55] basis. And then like every other doctor- Yeah ... or practitioner you wanna work with, you need to [00:11:00] have a conversation with them. Have you treated this?
[00:11:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: How do you treat this? Are you familiar with this? Because just [00:11:05] 'cause you're licensed, and we know this with medical doctors or anyone- Right ... doesn't mean you're conversant in it, doesn't mean [00:11:10] you're very good at it. Mm-hmm. And that's not a slight. You might be good at the thing you're good at, but, you [00:11:15] know- Like we were talking before we started, uh, gynecology isn't my main area.
[00:11:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Even though [00:11:20] my main area is pelvic floor. You would think they're related. I could talk about gynecology, and I know my way around [00:11:25] it, but you don't wanna come to me for that because that's- For gynecological issues ... not what I do. So you wanna talk to me about that. [00:11:30] You know, I actually had a discovery call just recently, and it was not really pelvic [00:11:35] floor, but it was stuff down there.
[00:11:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. And I was like, "No, you need someone that does that. I don't treat that."
[00:11:38] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:11:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Interesting. A practitioner knows to [00:11:40] stay in their lane is the good practitioner.
[00:11:43] Dr. Taz: So let's talk a little bit about Chinese [00:11:45] medicine in particular as a field and as a system of medicine. Now, before we, [00:11:50] the Westerners, got our hands in it, right, it was handed down generationally in terms of formulas [00:11:55] and in terms of practices and things like that.
[00:11:57] Dr. Taz: I had a guest on, um, you may know her, [00:12:00] Janelle Kim, who came on, and she had been handed down formulas, you know- Mm-hmm ... over generations of [00:12:05] different things that work, and that was the old way of, of doing things, right? Mm-hmm. Now that we've brought [00:12:10] it in, kind of into modern day, uh, modern day timing or so, you know, [00:12:15] help us...
[00:12:15] Dr. Taz: You know, how would you explain... I have my definition for it. How would you explain Chinese [00:12:20] medicine in the simplest of terms?
[00:12:22] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ooh, in the simplest of terms. There's so much I wanna say about [00:12:25] that history- Yeah ... and how that went down. We can, we can talk about that. But let's
[00:12:28] Dr. Taz: save
[00:12:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: that for a second. Yeah. Um, Chinese medicine in the [00:12:30] simplest terms is actually a way of thinking, and that's kind of where the title of my book comes from.
[00:12:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it's a [00:12:35] way that you perceive information. All the modalities, acupuncture, qigong, [00:12:40] uh, herbs, whatever, it doesn't really matter because those are the things that you do to the body after [00:12:45] you understand-
[00:12:45] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:12:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: what's happening. So it's a way of thinking and seeing. [00:12:50] That's what Chinese medicine is, and even more so, I think the easiest way to wrap your head around it is [00:12:55] what's uniquely, um, specific about Chinese medicine, and [00:13:00] Eastern medicine for the most part as a whole, is that Eastern medicine has a definition of [00:13:05] health, what an ideal, perfect healthy person is.
[00:13:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Any aberration [00:13:10] away from there is disease.
[00:13:11] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:13:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: You don't have to have an actual category of disease or a [00:13:15] laboratory finding that's enough to meet a criteria of something. We examine you. We [00:13:20] see what's going on, how different systems are working, how you're eating, pooping, breathing, sleeping, and we start seeing, [00:13:25] "Oh, this is how you're away from that idealized model that no one will ever achieve."[00:13:30]
[00:13:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: The closer we get you back to that, disease will disappear. Whereas [00:13:35] standard medicine has categories of disease, and until you fall into it, I don't know, you have a syndrome. I don't know, you don't feel well, [00:13:40] good luck. And that's why it doesn't do as well at chronic care, where Chinese medicine, we [00:13:45] excel
[00:13:45] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, I know something is off [00:13:50] in my body, but I don't know where to start, this is for you.
[00:13:54] Dr. Taz: That's [00:13:55] why I created The Circle. The Circle is my private community where I and my team [00:14:00] focus on understanding your body from hormones and stress to metabolic health and [00:14:05] longevity with real-life guidance that you can actually use. This is about [00:14:10] clarity and consistency and support beyond the exam room and [00:14:15] maybe outside of all the different appointments and experts that you've been running around to.
[00:14:19] Dr. Taz: [00:14:20] You can try The Circle with a one-month trial using the promo code podcast at [00:14:25] Hol+.co/circle. Again, that's Hol+, [00:14:30] Hol+.co/circle.
[00:14:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: All right, let's jump back into [00:14:35] the episode.
[00:14:36] Dr. Taz: They focus on that, right? The other way I've always thought about Chinese [00:14:40] medicine or the way I've tried to explain it to patients is that it's, it's an energetic [00:14:45] system as well, right?
[00:14:46] Dr. Taz: They believe in energy. They believe in the flow of energy, and then they will tie [00:14:50] together the physical, the mental, the emotional, like the spiritual. All of that kind of comes [00:14:55] together, you know, in Chinese medicine. Is that a good explanation of it?
[00:14:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:00] You know, you're asking a person who has nitpicked that so much.
[00:15:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:05] Yes To a point, because, you know, we've heard the term spiritual bypassing [00:15:10] before, right? Yeah. If we solely just think it's only about energy, which there is [00:15:15] an energetic component, then we are prone to just saying it's your energy only and you [00:15:20] just gotta fix your energy. And Chinese medicine's never seen that and never spoke that way.
[00:15:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's [00:15:25] actually how it made its way to the West- Mm ... through certain things, and I could go into that. But it- [00:15:30] it's ... Chinese medicine's very practical. They understood that if a muscle was tight and you put a needle in it [00:15:35] and it twitched and released, you were better. There was no energy there. Right. We could say the chi was blocked, but what's that mean?[00:15:40]
[00:15:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, right. Well, the chi in, in medicine is really metabolism. So that local metabolism is off in [00:15:45] such a way that the muscle was in spasm. By inserting needle, there was an axon reflex and it released. [00:15:50] There's no magic there. And even so, the, the Huangdi Neijing, Yellow Emperor's Classic, which was- Yeah, yeah
[00:15:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:15:55] 3,000 years, you know, Han dynasty text, that book was a movement away from [00:16:00] spiritualism and shamanism.
[00:16:01] Dr. Taz: Oh, really?
[00:16:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: When you go through, it's like there are no demons, there are no ghosts, blah, blah. Ah. They're [00:16:05] not saying they don't exist, but it was a real kind of like nature and [00:16:10] observable signs and symptoms was the core of things.
[00:16:13] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm. If we did this thing, [00:16:15] it would occur, and it's reproducible medicine.
[00:16:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now Chinese medicine is [00:16:20] so rich enough in its observational manners that there [00:16:25] is room for energy and the unsaid and the things that we have not yet defined in medicine. Maybe you could say quantum [00:16:30] medicine, but I don't know anything about that.
[00:16:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, yeah. Um, so there is an energetic component because there is an [00:16:35] explanation of things that we don't have a way to explain in modern science right now, [00:16:40] but not everything is energy. Right. And I think that's where we go wrong, where we're like, "Oh, it's, it's all about moving the [00:16:45] chi." Sometimes.
[00:16:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Sometimes it's, you know, very simple. Very, very simple. For example, large intestine four, [00:16:50] we all know that. Yep. Hegu. It's one of the things all over TikTok. Yeah. Rub that, it cures practically everything.
[00:16:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:16:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Well, [00:16:55] because of the, the plexus below there, it stimulates the periductal gray.
[00:16:59] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? [00:17:00] So we, we've established that on fMRIs, which means it modulates pain throughout the entire [00:17:05] body.
[00:17:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: Okay, we could say we're regulating the chi there, but there's also a very- There's science there ... [00:17:10] substantial thing that's happening there.
[00:17:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah,
[00:17:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: yeah. But that's the, the beauty. There's, there's not [00:17:15] separate medicine. There's medicine that works, and there's medicine that doesn't work. Mm. [00:17:20] So just because it's alternative, alternative to what?
[00:17:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Medicine that works? That doesn't make sense to me. It's a [00:17:25] logical fallacy.
[00:17:25] Dr. Taz: So it really shouldn't be outside the medical model. No. And we shouldn't think that Chinese medicine [00:17:30] is woo woo.
[00:17:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: No, and that's what I mean about-
[00:17:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah ...
[00:17:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, there is an [00:17:35] energetic component, 100%.
[00:17:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:17:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: But-
[00:17:37] Dr. Taz: There's a lot of science in Chinese
[00:17:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: medicine
[00:17:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: there's so [00:17:40] much science. Yeah. And it's validated in such a way, [00:17:45] like through fMRIs, to just reproducible science.
[00:17:48] Dr. Taz: fMRIs, guys.
[00:17:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: Oh, yeah.
[00:17:49] Dr. Taz: [00:17:50] Functional, functional MRIs.
[00:17:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Okay. So we, we can see exactly- Right ... what's happening in real time, what parts of the brain [00:17:55] are lighting up, so to speak. Yeah. Or EEGs, et cetera.
[00:17:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I think it's, it [00:18:00] is medicine It is just like other medicines. There's a time and place [00:18:05] for everything. If you were just in a car accident, please don't come to me.
[00:18:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:18:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? I have [00:18:10] just the worst medicine for you. Right. Sure, we have a history of traumatology, but I really think Western medicine shines [00:18:15] at
[00:18:15] Dr. Taz: that.
[00:18:15] Dr. Taz: Does a little bit better
[00:18:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: at that,
[00:18:16] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:18:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. But when you are suffering, you wanna [00:18:20] have multiple lenses- Right ... to be able to see what's going on. And Chinese medicine is a great lens, and we have tons of [00:18:25] lenses within Chinese medicine. And I think it's a great complementary, [00:18:30] uh, modality to standard of care, but it's not alternative.
[00:18:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:18:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's something that should be [00:18:35] evaluated within it.
[00:18:35] Dr. Taz: I'm right there with you, and that's what we do in our clinics, actually. We use the diagnostic process to [00:18:40] help identify, and then we'll use conventional labs and, [00:18:45] you know, technology or whatever else to prove. Mm-hmm. You know? And so it's a v- it's a [00:18:50] methodology that we're able to reproduce over and over again, bringing the two together, and it's actually [00:18:55] super fun and incredibly rewarding work at the same time, you know?
[00:18:58] Dr. Taz: And
[00:18:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: rewarding's that key because [00:19:00] it's so validating. Yeah. And you actually say, "Huh, if this is true, that means there's a lot of other [00:19:05] things that are true." Yeah. "And that the world is a very integrative, cohesive model, not just [00:19:10] medicine. And then what does that say about life in general?" And that's the thing that gave me a [00:19:15] passion when I was searching for something new, and I fell in love.
[00:19:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:19:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it was validating on [00:19:20] so many levels. And every day in clinic, it's validating.
[00:19:22] Dr. Taz: Well, let's, let's go into the history a little bit 'cause I do [00:19:25] find that- Yeah ... I don't, I don't wanna spend too much time there, but just maybe a quick blurb on the history of Chinese medicine. It's an [00:19:30] old system of medicine.
[00:19:30] Dr. Taz: Right. 5,000 years old is what we usually say. You know, how did it get to [00:19:35] the West? What's the... You talked about the Yellow Emperor's Classic. That's the [00:19:40] textbook that people quote and cite and look at now. Maybe just give us a little sense of the [00:19:45] evolution of it and- So- ... and its landing here.
[00:19:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. That's a, that's a core text, and there's many other texts.
[00:19:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. And [00:19:50] it's a Han dynasty text, so 300-ish- Mm-hmm ... um, [00:19:55] BC, you know, before the Common Era. Um- You know, from there, each [00:20:00] dynasty had a slight different focus or play or evolution. So I'll just [00:20:05] fast-forward through all that. However, with the Silk Road and everything else, there was interrelationships between Greco-Roman, [00:20:10] um, you know, scholars, and m- medicine, and theories, and Ayurvedic.
[00:20:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: They [00:20:15] all intermingle. Mm-hmm. So to say that anything is pure, it's just Chinese medicine took its lens [00:20:20] and adapted it- Mm-hmm ... just like it does in modern science now. Um, we [00:20:25] fast-forward, we get to the last dynasty, the Qing, wh- um, and then from there, [00:20:30] they were being exposed to the British, who were bringing modern early medicine.
[00:20:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:20:35] and they were trying to figure out i- what we call flavor and nature. What-- How does this work within their theory, right? How [00:20:40] does aspirin work? Why does it work within Chinese medicine theory? They were always evolving and growing, [00:20:45] which was the beauty of it. But then we had the Cultural Revolution in China, which they stopped all Chinese medicine.
[00:20:49] Dr. Taz: [00:20:50] Right. What year is that?
[00:20:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, the Cultural Revolution, well, it goes [00:20:55] through, um, when you had the fall of the Qing, I wanna say that's the [00:21:00] '30s. Okay. And then the Cultural Revolution, I think the peak was in the '70s. Mm-hmm. But through there, everything was, [00:21:05] you know, passe, and I'm not an expert on those timelines.
[00:21:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, just
[00:21:07] Dr. Taz: rough.
[00:21:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. But roughly. Yeah. But however, [00:21:10] you know, in the '80s and '90s, suddenly Chinese medicine was really important. You had to pay for doctor [00:21:15] movements and everything else. Um, even before then, but, like, it started to really come together as [00:21:20] TCM. Really, in the '70s, you started seeing TCM really come together.
[00:21:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:21:25] There's reasons why, and China, and well, bar all those [00:21:30] political reasons. Mm-hmm. But suddenly they were like, "Oh, let's put this together." But now they, they rewrote it in a very [00:21:35] simplified way, which is what we call TCM, Chi- Mm-hmm ... Traditional Chinese Medicine, which is a way to teach people [00:21:40] rapidly, right? So you see bar charts that also look the same as grain production- Mm-hmm
[00:21:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: right, that you [00:21:45] would see during the communist, uh- Right ... era there. Um, and you start creating people to [00:21:50] treat people. They didn't have enough regular doctors. But then, uh, you have, [00:21:55] in the '70s, you had ... There was a reporter from The New York Times that went over there with Nixon, had an [00:22:00] appendectomy, um, while having no anesthesia.
[00:22:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: He had acupuncture anesthesia. Oh, wow, okay. Or something [00:22:05] like that.
[00:22:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there was a great interest, and that's when it started coming here. But the problem [00:22:10] was that was also the transcendental movement. The Beatles were going to- Oh, yeah. Uh-huh ... to India. And we had no [00:22:15] vocabulary in the West except the text that happened in the '30s and '40s by this Frenchman [00:22:20] called, um, George Soulié de Morant, who was a French bank clerk, who had [00:22:25] no understanding of Chinese medicine, but was eventually a trans- diplomatic translator.
[00:22:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: He's the guy that gave us [00:22:30] meridians and gave us energy, because we had no words. Really? Is it [00:22:35] wrong? No. But is it accurate? It's myopic.
[00:22:38] Dr. Taz: Ah.
[00:22:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? So it, it [00:22:40] suddenly constrained us to just an energetic medicine, and then revalidated by this 1970s [00:22:45] transcendental movement.
[00:22:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the West perceived it in a true Oriental sense, which [00:22:50] is now a very passe word, but the word means to perceive the, the East from the [00:22:55] West.
[00:22:55] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:22:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: We were kind of now, how do we put this back together? And then [00:23:00] in the 2000s, there's a resurgence to the classics and starting to bring this ... Even in China, starting to kind [00:23:05] of bring the medicine back to its wholeness again. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, but we're, like I said, a [00:23:10] young profession because it almost disappeared, and a lot of the old doctors [00:23:15] almost vanished.
[00:23:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are gone.
[00:23:16] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:23:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So some of us are lucky to have kind of passed down [00:23:20] lineages. Like you said, it was handed down. Right. Those lineages still existed, but they went kind of [00:23:25] underground for a certain moment or two, and then we had to re-piece things together.
[00:23:29] Dr. Taz: A lot of the herbal [00:23:30] formulas are handed down concoctions, right?
[00:23:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: So you have family [00:23:35] variations, but you have the core texts. Okay. The Shang Han Lun, et cetera, which are, like, these core treaties [00:23:40] on how the medicine works. Um, and they all kind of come from different lenses of how would you apply these [00:23:45] different things. Um, but then you have those ways that we changed it.
[00:23:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: But what's interesting, there were some [00:23:50] regional changes. Right. Sichuan in the south is very different than the north because they treated different diseases. [00:23:55] They also had access to different herbs.
[00:23:57] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:23:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there's so many variations. So sometimes [00:24:00] they say these coveted formulas, as like the formula. I'm like, "Yeah, if you were living in Sichuan."
[00:24:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: But in [00:24:05] New York
[00:24:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:24:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: that might not be the right herb for you. That
[00:24:08] Dr. Taz: might be ... Oh, so interesting.
[00:24:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because it's super hot over [00:24:10] there. Yeah. It is humid, but it's really hot.
[00:24:13] Dr. Taz: So within your clinic, are you doing a lot of [00:24:15] custom herbal formulations- So- ... or custom formulations?
[00:24:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: I do a lot of hands-on stuff, and I [00:24:20] do a medium amount of herbs, but I tend to do custom formulas.
[00:24:23] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:24:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:24:25] Partially it's the bias that's been passed by my teachers. I was lucky enough to be passed things, just as we've discussed.
[00:24:29] Dr. Taz: [00:24:30] Right.
[00:24:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, which does not make me good. It just means that someone explained things to me.
[00:24:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:24:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, [00:24:35] and I, I just really feel that customizing things is the best. Now, sometimes people fall into what we call [00:24:40] patents, things that you can just get right off the shelf.
[00:24:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: Take it. Sure, it's fine. As long as it matches you [00:24:45] enough, I think it's fine, especially in maintenance.
[00:24:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:24:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: But I really think custom formulas is the [00:24:50] way to go. That's how it's always been done.
[00:24:51] Dr. Taz: And the biggest complaint I get-
[00:24:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm ...
[00:24:54] Dr. Taz: [00:24:55] from patients is some of the custom formulas with the herbs and the teas and stuff like [00:25:00] that, like, they get a brown bag.
[00:25:02] Dr. Taz: Mm. They don't know what's in the bag, right? Mm-hmm. [00:25:05] And they're like, "I can't do it. I can do it for X amount of time, but it's not something I can keep up with." [00:25:10] Yeah. What's happening there?
[00:25:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So- Good medicine is [00:25:15] bitter.
[00:25:15] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:25:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's the only way I could say
[00:25:17] Dr. Taz: it. It's only good if it's bi- if it's super
[00:25:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: bitter.
[00:25:18] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, exactly. [00:25:20] I mean, it's... I mean, GMP pharmacies will give you the list of [00:25:25] the herbs, and you should know, but you're gonna be like, "I don't know what this is." Yeah. "It doesn't grow here."
[00:25:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:25:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there's that [00:25:30] one issue right off the bat. Um, luckily we have progressed, so you can [00:25:35] get granulars, which are kind of decocted and turned into instant tea, [00:25:40] and that is a little more palatable sometimes.
[00:25:42] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:25:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can also get those into a [00:25:45] capsule, and the good GMP pharmacies will capsule your custom formula for a price.
[00:25:49] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:25:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:25:50] And then you don't have to taste it at all. However, and there's arguments, I won't say what side of the [00:25:55] fence I'm on there, that tasting it is part of it.
[00:25:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:25:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, not the suffering [00:26:00] part of it- Yeah
[00:26:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: but that flavor creates certain reflexes and, and creates [00:26:05] certain changes in the body. You know, if you suck on a lemon, you immediately astringe, you pull in. Yeah. It's very [00:26:10] astringent. So that action is an action on your qi or any action on your metabolism to [00:26:15] pull in. What is that neurological trigger in the body?
[00:26:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you don't get that, does it work? [00:26:20] Maybe.
[00:26:20] Dr. Taz: Sometimes. Hmm.
[00:26:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: I don't know. We don't have data, honestly.
[00:26:24] Dr. Taz: Let's talk [00:26:25] methodology for a second. So qi, [00:26:30] shen, symptoms, diagnoses.
[00:26:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah.
[00:26:32] Dr. Taz: Break it all down for us.
[00:26:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: Oof. I would say read [00:26:35] my book. Um.
[00:26:36] Dr. Taz: Break it all down
[00:26:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: in two seconds. So in two seconds. Yeah, no, I'm kidding. Okay, first the big, the [00:26:40] elephant in the room.
[00:26:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. What is qi?
[00:26:41] Dr. Taz: What is qi? Qi's
[00:26:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: a descriptor. Qi by itself means nothing, right? Uh, [00:26:45] although we use it so much that we all kind of know what it means- Yeah ... in the field. So it's the qi [00:26:50] where, what is it? So in medicine, I like to say the easiest way to understand it from a [00:26:55] Western view, in medicine, qi is metabolism, but in a larger sense, not like, you know, the [00:27:00] Krebs cycle, right?
[00:27:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: But interrelationship between things in an area. [00:27:05] Proper interrelationship, whether biomechanical or blood flow or [00:27:10] neurological, hormonal, whatever, means it's functioning well. There's good qi, it's fine. [00:27:15] If the area's messed up in some way, the qi is bad. And then we have poetic [00:27:20] ways of describing how the qi went bad, so we know how to make it good again.
[00:27:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, shen is what we [00:27:25] talk about spirit, right? Or the mind or consciousness and, and we, we [00:27:30] tend to s- say across the board that everything starts with the mind.
[00:27:33] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: But if you fell off [00:27:35] your horse or got hit by a cab, you know, that wasn't necessarily your mind. [00:27:40] Although one could argue maybe you weren't alert enough.
[00:27:41] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:27:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's room for interpretation, but we say most [00:27:45] chronic disease comes from the mind. Um, it's rooted in
[00:27:48] Dr. Taz: that. Mo- So say that again. M- In Chinese [00:27:50] medicine, most chronic disease comes from the mind.
[00:27:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: People don't like to hear that. [00:27:55] However, Chinese medicine gives you agency. It makes you responsible [00:28:00] at the end of the day because if the mind and the [00:28:05] spirit are not in harmony, and they both reside, what we say, in the heart.
[00:28:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. We say the heart [00:28:10] is the emperor. If the emperor is content and happy, everything is ruled with [00:28:15] regularity and everything is good. There's peace in the land. Your body is the land. [00:28:20] If the emperor's agitated, he's gonna do crazy things. He's gonna yell, he's gonna scream, he's gonna behead [00:28:25] people, whatever.
[00:28:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Your qi becomes deranged in the land. If you keep a peaceful mind [00:28:30] and you keep a joyous heart, you should not have all the diseases of [00:28:35] stress, right? We know what stress does to the body.
[00:28:37] Dr. Taz: So they talked about that way back when.
[00:28:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: 100%. Okay. So, and we're [00:28:40] talking about sympathetic lock, we're talking about all these other things.
[00:28:42] Dr. Jordan Barber: But also, do you enjoy your life? 'Cause if you don't [00:28:45] enjoy your life, you have this negative belief system where you are constantly secretly [00:28:50] wishing that bad things are happening. Mm. That's the thought process, right? I'm really dumbing down- Right ... thousands of years of [00:28:55] philosophy. Right. So we do have that argument.
[00:28:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: And, um, uh, Dr. William, William [00:29:00] Morris, uh, was one of my doctoral, uh, professors. He coined the term [00:29:05] eco-psychosocial, and that's why we have psychosocial in my, my degree. Eco-psychosocial was the [00:29:10] term that he coined to say, in a Western term, how we described Chinese medicine. [00:29:15] Because it was how you existed, where you existed, your interactions with [00:29:20] people, and your internal state that dictated disease [00:29:25] That's the truth of Chinese medicine Mm.
[00:29:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's the beauty of Chinese medicine. And I say it gives you [00:29:30] agency As a doctor, whatever those titles mean. Doctor comes from Latin [00:29:35] docere, right? Docere means to teach or to have knowledge of. I don't heal anyone. I don't have any [00:29:40] magic, right? I can help you, I can guide you, but you have to take control over [00:29:45] it, and Chinese medicine does that.
[00:29:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: You're gonna come in, maybe we put some needles some places. We do some other things. [00:29:50] We give some herbs. But you also have to stop eating the cheeseburger five times a week- Right ... if the [00:29:55] cheeseburger's your problem. You also have to go to sleep and not stare at the phone. You have to wake up with [00:30:00] regularity.
[00:30:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: If you hate your mate or partner, you need to leave.
[00:30:04] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:30:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: And [00:30:05] if you hate your job, you need to change it.
[00:30:06] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:30:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Otherwise, Chinese medicine says you will continue to suffer in [00:30:10] some way, shape, or form.
[00:30:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now, that's not also to say we don't want to spiritually bypass that. You're the [00:30:15] problem for your cancer.
[00:30:16] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:30:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Like, just because now you got happy, your [00:30:20] cancer's gonna go away, I don't know. Right? And you have, uh, what's it, Gabor Mate- Yeah, [00:30:25] yeah ... who does say that.
[00:30:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:30:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: Maybe. Life's complex, [00:30:30] so we don't wanna just make everything so simple. Right. But that is the essence of Chinese medicine is [00:30:35] you have agency over your life.
[00:30:36] Dr. Taz: I love that message, though. And it's beautiful. It's an empowerment message versus [00:30:40] something's wrong with you and we need to fix you, you know? You
[00:30:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: don't need to choose to suffer. You may suffer, but you could choose to be [00:30:45] happy while you're suffering, which is a very weird statement. Hmm. You can change the, the perception, and there's [00:30:50] always a way that you can leverage your state or your mind, and there's plenty of cases throughout history of [00:30:55] people that have suffered immeasurable things but were still joyous-
[00:30:58] Dr. Taz: Hmm
[00:30:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: even under [00:31:00] duress and pain.
[00:31:00] Dr. Taz: So let's break that down- Hmm ... for just a minute because that, that's one that's hard for the Western [00:31:05] mind to get around, right? You're in pain.
[00:31:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:07] Dr. Taz: You're hurting.
[00:31:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:09] Dr. Taz: You're suffering.
[00:31:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:31:10] Mm-hmm.
[00:31:10] Dr. Taz: Yet you can be joyous.
[00:31:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Neuroplasticity.
[00:31:13] Dr. Taz: Help us with that.
[00:31:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, [00:31:15] neuroplasticity.
[00:31:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: You can change the way you perceive things. So you can dampen [00:31:20] pain signals. You can change how or why you feel you're [00:31:25] suffering. You may still suffer, but you can lessen its blow, and if you can [00:31:30] find meaning or existence within that suffering, you can invert that. Hmm. And we see that through the [00:31:35] saints- Mm-hmm
[00:31:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: in all religions of how many suffered but still served people and helped [00:31:40] people. That's kind of that perspective there. Now, we're taking a very, like, outside- Right ... of the [00:31:45] bell curve. Rare. Generally, most people, look, there's terrible things that happen to people, [00:31:50] and we don't wanna devalue that- No ... when we say it.
[00:31:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: But you can take [00:31:55] agency over what happened and try to find as many levers to pull [00:32:00] to make it more palatable.
[00:32:02] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:32:03] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? If you lost your leg, you lost your [00:32:05] leg. It's not gonna grow back, right? But you can still [00:32:10] smile in the day. You can still watch that sunset, right? You can create really great [00:32:15] relationships with people.
[00:32:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: You still may suffer, but you bring meaning to life 'cause life is more than just the meat [00:32:20] bag that you occupy.
[00:32:21] Dr. Taz: What are some simple ways people can [00:32:25] S- you said, you gave this analogy of, of, of pulling levers, right? What are, what are just some [00:32:30] simple things people can do to start to... They're in a tough place or a tough spot, they're suffering- [00:32:35] Mm
[00:32:35] Dr. Taz: right? Whether it's from a disease or a situation or whatever, financially, whatever it may be. What [00:32:40] are some of the things that they can start to do?
[00:32:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: So barring a full consult with a Chinese practitioner who [00:32:45] can-
[00:32:45] Dr. Taz: We're stealing your brain right now ...
[00:32:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: right, you know, figure out, because it's not simple, and that's the problem.
[00:32:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: The [00:32:50] medicine's simple, but the pra- the practice of the medicine- Practice is not ... is an art.
[00:32:54] Dr. Taz: Yes. [00:32:55]
[00:32:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? And so Dr. Peter Caron, who wrote the book with me, who's a phenomenal practitioner, we started [00:33:00] using the word levers within our book. I like
[00:33:01] Dr. Taz: that,
[00:33:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: yeah. Right? Because it's understanding the system as a [00:33:05] whole and finding where that leverage is, because that's the art of Chinese medicine.
[00:33:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. [00:33:10] I would say you almost can do an examination of the mind because if we're, we're taking a premise that if [00:33:15] you have a calmer heart and a different outlook, you will start feeling better. You will be more [00:33:20] parasympathetic. That's a fact. So you can start saying, "What is your circadian rhythm like? Are you going to sleep at a [00:33:25] regular time?
[00:33:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are you consuming media that makes you enraged? Are you worrying about things that you [00:33:30] have no control over?" Taking, like, a stoic view of things, right? Mm-hmm. Those are [00:33:35] simple things, but then we're talking about food and diet and everything else. Are you eating [00:33:40] healthy? Now, Chinese medicine, thank God, does not really have a true, "You must be vegan, you must [00:33:45] be that."
[00:33:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right, right. No. You must eat things that are good for you. If you notice the giant [00:33:50] bag of gummy worms you eat every night, which might be me- ... is affecting your digestion, you need to cut [00:33:55] down the gummy worms. You probably can still have them, but less.
[00:33:58] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:33:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: These are the [00:34:00] levers over time. If you don't have positive interactions and relationships, create [00:34:05] positive interactions and relationships, whether it's through therapy or [00:34:10] socializing or getting on the internet and making friends.
[00:34:12] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, it's a modern world. These are [00:34:15] simple levers. But to just say, "I don't know. Someone needs to fix me," [00:34:20] that's the opposite of agency.
[00:34:21] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:34:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's what I don't do, and that's what no one in [00:34:25] Chinese medicine does. Sometimes you come in and you get fixed, especially a stiff neck, very easy.
[00:34:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah, yeah. I fix [00:34:30] that.
[00:34:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:34:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: But the way you're lifting in the gym, you need to change that or it's gonna come back, or the way you sit at your [00:34:35] desk.
[00:34:35] Dr. Taz: It's such a, like a paradigm shift almost- Yeah ... for how to think about yourself and your body, [00:34:40] health- Mm ... healing, community- Mm ... the situation you're in, so much more.
[00:34:43] Dr. Taz: And, you know, um, [00:34:45] I talk a lot about that in some of my books as well, about how these roads converge. Mm-hmm. Your [00:34:50] physical health converges with your emotional health and the decisions you make, and [00:34:55] it works the other way as well. So I, I love Chinese medicine for really approaching [00:35:00] things that way.
[00:35:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. You've spent a lot of your career in pain-
[00:35:03] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm ...
[00:35:04] Dr. Taz: management, [00:35:05] pelvic floor.
[00:35:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm.
[00:35:06] Dr. Taz: Can you talk about w- pain [00:35:10] in general and what's happening there? We have a lot of people in chronic pain- Mm ... of [00:35:15] different intensities, right? There's low grade pain, neck hurts, back hurts, wrist hurts. I have [00:35:20] rotator cuff.
[00:35:20] Dr. Taz: Mm. You know, I ruptured my Achilles at one time. Better now, [00:35:25] but at one point I was in pain, you know. Mm-hmm. W- what's, what's happening in the pain [00:35:30] pathways? How does Chinese medicine treat pain?
[00:35:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: So Chinese medicine first treats pain [00:35:35] The same way it treats everything. It looks at you as a whole. What's going on?
[00:35:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Is [00:35:40] this a biomechanical issue? Because if it's biomechanical, we fix the biomechanics, pain goes away.
[00:35:44] Dr. Taz: [00:35:45] Right.
[00:35:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Is there some scar tissue? Maybe we break it up with needles. If, if it's a lifestyle [00:35:50] issue and you're stressed all the time and you're stuck in a, like a sympathetic state, and maybe [00:35:55] now, um, you're moving into, uh, maybe a form of central sensitization where the [00:36:00] CNS is overactive now, and therefore normal sensory signals are amplified, [00:36:05] so it feels like pain.
[00:36:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Well, then we're gonna work which classification of points, if you remember Hua [00:36:10] Tuo Jia Ji points- Mm-hmm ... the paraspinal points. But these are spinal segments, which is where the information comes in, and we're gonna [00:36:15] change the reflexes there to down-regulate that pain signal. If it's [00:36:20] nerve entrapment, we're going to, again, look at the biomechanics, but also create maybe millimeters of space [00:36:25] through different modalities: stretching, needling, et cetera, dry needling, et cetera.
[00:36:29] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:36:30] Um- If it's an inflammatory process, we're gonna look at why are you inflamed, [00:36:35] right? So is that diet? Is it lifestyle? These are all the things that go into it. [00:36:40] Now, for me, most of my people are biomechanical or [00:36:45] neurological issues, um, just because of the population.
[00:36:48] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:48] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I stay a lot more [00:36:50] in that. Most people aren't systemically inflamed.
[00:36:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: They might have some inflammation-
[00:36:52] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:36:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: but that's not the reason why they're in pain. [00:36:55] It might be, like, one of the things in the bucket that was too much and sunk the bucket, [00:37:00] so to speak. Mm-hmm,
[00:37:00] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm.
[00:37:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: But it's not their main issue. Most of them are biomechanics, weekend [00:37:05] warriors, um, post, uh, childbirth.
[00:37:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: Things [00:37:10] like that can create a lot of different issues. Spinal segmental dysfunction, having injuries, [00:37:15] herniations, et cetera, that's the swath of what I see. Mm-hmm. So that's the stuff that I kinda [00:37:20] work with mostly in my clinic, but it's not to say that when I notice that there's other things [00:37:25] going on that we say, "Hey."
[00:37:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: I do a lot of vagus nerve stimulation via, um, via the [00:37:30] ear, actually, so using electroacupuncture. So the symbacchia of [00:37:35] the ear, which is a, a piece of the ear, the ear has a bunch of different names, is solely innervated [00:37:40] by the vagus nerve, the auricular branch. It's 100% innervated. So
[00:37:42] Dr. Taz: we're seeing a lot right now on social and everywhere about-
[00:37:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:37:45] Yeah
[00:37:45] Dr. Taz: vagus nerve stimulation and
[00:37:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: people- But when you look at the vagus nerve stimulation, where they're doing it, it's like parts of the ear and, and areas that [00:37:50] might not even be fully innervated. So what i-
[00:37:51] Dr. Taz: what is vagus nerve stimulation? Let's just start there.
[00:37:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the, the vagus nerve is really responsible [00:37:55] for sympathetic/parasympathetic state.
[00:37:56] Dr. Jordan Barber: Stimulating that brings you to a parasympathetic rest and digest state. [00:38:00] So most of us will say that we are stuck in this fight or flight, you know, [00:38:05] position in our lives. Right. So by bringing, stimulating that, we can bring the body [00:38:10] more into a, um, lability between the two because you, you don't wanna be stuck solely [00:38:15] parasympathetic either.
[00:38:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. You want to be able to be, uh, up and down, right? You wanna [00:38:20] have action and rest. So it is really a biohack, but when you're [00:38:25] stressed and you've maybe had tons of trauma or you're under so much pain, [00:38:30] one of the things is to get the body into that restorative state is you have to bring it more closer to that [00:38:35] parasympathetic state.
[00:38:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. So by doing stimulation, you could do it. I do it by the ear using [00:38:40] electro stim, but there are other ways. Is that right here? Yeah. Okay. So the, the symbacchias- Yep ... you know, right [00:38:45] here. Yep. And, you know, whether putting needles in there and, and attaching electrodes or I'll take small TENS [00:38:50] pads and just stick it there because- I get a larger area, and it works just as fine.
[00:38:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. And [00:38:55] actually, there's very specific research that says 25 hertz [00:39:00] milli current is, like, the tried and true stimulation. And you'll see all these very expensive machines, [00:39:05] which I have bought all of them because I'm addicted to technology.
[00:39:07] Dr. Taz: Uh-huh.
[00:39:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: And you look at their frequencies, and you're [00:39:10] like, "Hmm, there's not a lot of research behind it.
[00:39:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: What is it doing?" Some of it's micro current. It might still. [00:39:15] It is definitely stimulating it. But you wanna just look at that, that clear research out there and get [00:39:20] the b- best bang for your buck. So I'll use that a lot when I'm doing neuromodulation, which [00:39:25] is electroacupuncture- Mm-hmm ... to bring the body back to either neuromodulate it, [00:39:30] neurorehabilitate it, and bring it back to a calmer state, and start getting nerves to [00:39:35] fire correctly.
[00:39:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, you can stimulate, uh, nerve growth factors and other things like that with [00:39:40] different recruitment of receptors and everything else. It gets pretty technical, but electroacupuncture's [00:39:45] phenomenal what you can do. So there's a whole neuroscience behind this. And notice I [00:39:50] didn't talk about qi, but it's qi.
[00:39:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's the interrelationship of what's going on there, sure. You have stagnant [00:39:55] qi, it's bad.
[00:39:56] Dr. Taz: How many treatments usually, or how long does it take for someone to get better
[00:39:59] Dr. Jordan Barber: and- Depends on [00:40:00] what they have going on.
[00:40:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? My, my tried and true, like my marketing [00:40:05] is
[00:40:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:40:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: is, is silly because I literally say, "If you're not seeing changes by [00:40:10] the fourth or sixth session, I'm not gonna get you anything by the 10th or 20th session."
[00:40:14] Dr. Taz: Mm. [00:40:15] That's a good, that's a good framework.
[00:40:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Now, the reason why is I'm niched. I know [00:40:20] exactly. If you're coming in for digestion issues, that's a whole different place. Right. But [00:40:25] for shoulder pain or for pelvic floor dysfunction, there's only so much needling that's gonna [00:40:30] be done there, and those muscles are going to soften.
[00:40:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: And once they're softened, if you still have [00:40:35] dysfunction, there's something else. Else going on. And I'm not the right person, and I'm gonna refer you. I work [00:40:40] hand-in-hand with pelvic floor PTs.
[00:40:41] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:40:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: I think it's the gold standard.
[00:40:42] Dr. Taz: Okay, let's talk about the pelvic floor- Yeah. Love it ... because we see [00:40:45] so many men and women-
[00:40:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm
[00:40:47] Dr. Taz: with different manifestations of pelvic floor [00:40:50] dysfunction. Mm-hmm. Right? It could be pelvic pain, could be incontinence. Mm. It could be bladder [00:40:55] spasms. It could be lower back pain. It could be the anteverted uterus. Mm. [00:41:00] You know, re- I mean, sorry, the retroverted uterus, um, having that pelvic tilt- Mm-hmm ... that's then [00:41:05] causing hip dysfunc- I mean, I could go on.
[00:41:06] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Right? There's pelvic congestion syndrome. There's endometriosis. [00:41:10] Mm. PCOS. So all of that to say, what's going on with the pelvic [00:41:15] floor?
[00:41:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. So at first we'll say 60, roughly, depending on the study, 60% of [00:41:20] women will have some sort of pelvic floor dysfunction within their life, and depending on studies, up [00:41:25] to 20% of men.
[00:41:27] Dr. Jordan Barber: But when you look for pelvic floor care, it's one of the places where [00:41:30] men are just-
[00:41:30] Dr. Taz: They're
[00:41:31] Dr. Jordan Barber: ignored ... there's, there's nothing.
[00:41:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:41:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but men also have no clue what the pelvic floor is. Go [00:41:35] ask any guy, "I don't know what a pelvic floor... I know what my pelvis is." Mm-hmm. Um, so in pelvic floor [00:41:40] dysfunction, the ma- majority of stuff that I have, uh, is pain, pain anywheres down [00:41:45] there.
[00:41:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: I could start with some back pain, but it stems down to the perineum or defecation-based [00:41:50] pain, um, incomplete voiding, urgency of urine, [00:41:55] right? Things like that. Stress incontinence, especially, uh, after birth. Um, [00:42:00] and then vulvodynia, painful insertion, painful sex, um, a lot [00:42:05] of erectile dysfunction, which- It is like a huge thing for men's [00:42:10] pelvic floor.
[00:42:10] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, because when you actually understand what's going on there, it's wild, 'cause we only use [00:42:15] PDE5 inhibitors. That's the standard care, and it, it makes sense in a certain patient population, but [00:42:20] a 25-year-old man- Right ... that's suffering from ED-
[00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:42:22] Dr. Jordan Barber: that makes no sense. I mean, it'll help, [00:42:25] but like, it doesn't make that much sense.
[00:42:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. Um, so those are the things I really see is mostly pain. I s- I [00:42:30] tend to see hypertonic pelvic floor. When you're hypotonic, weakness, which is a [00:42:35] more aged population, they need a different standard of care. So needling that pelvic floor and trying to [00:42:40] soften it is the wrong thing to do. Mm. They need to be uptrained, and that's where PT's very good at.[00:42:45]
[00:42:45] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but a majority of the younger population is hypertonic, [00:42:50] too tight.
[00:42:50] Dr. Taz: Why
[00:42:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: are we so tight? Compression on the nerves.
[00:42:53] Dr. Taz: Are we sitting too
[00:42:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: much? I have ideas. [00:42:55] I think partially sitting too much.
[00:42:57] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: We also like to be weekend warriors- Mm ... [00:43:00] especially the men. Yeah. We, they go out, they, they do all these things, and then they go sit for five hours in front of a computer- Right
[00:43:04] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:43:05] eight hours in front of a computer. Then they go deadlift 300 pounds and they- Right ... right? And they don't even notice. [00:43:10] They're like, "Oh, my butt hurts," but that was 'cause they're just doing a squat. But it's like, it actually is [00:43:15] radiating to the perineum, or there's pain after ejaculation. Mm-hmm. They're just like, "Oh, [00:43:20] that's probably from the gym."
[00:43:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: No, that's an early sign, and it's going to get worse.
[00:43:24] Dr. Taz: [00:43:25] Mm.
[00:43:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Things like that. Um, women are so much more on top of it, but we have a big [00:43:30] issue where urology and gynecology barely even understands pelvic floor therapy- Right ... physical [00:43:35] therapy.
[00:43:35] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:43:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, luckily in New York City, we're, like, very on top of stuff, but even [00:43:40] here, but you just go north of the city, there's no one.
[00:43:43] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, so [00:43:45] pelvic floor care is so crucial, and you probably have pelvic floor dysfunction and you don't even know it.
[00:43:49] Dr. Taz: What are signs of [00:43:50] pelvic floor dysfunction?
[00:43:50] Dr. Jordan Barber: I mean, the, the hidden signs is slight urinary leaking for men or women.
[00:43:54] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:43:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Just [00:43:55] after voiding, right? After urinating, just a little, little left there.
[00:43:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: "Eh, I'm getting older." [00:44:00] No, you have some pelvic floor dysfunction. Oh. It's okay, but you have some pelvic floor dysfunction. [00:44:05] Um, I said for men, weakness or erectile dysfunction. Pain [00:44:10] after, uh, defecating or pain around the, the tailbone is very common, [00:44:15] coccydynia. Um, just little hints of that. And they're like, "Oh, it's really my hip," because it might also be stemming [00:44:20] from the hip.
[00:44:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. Obturator internus, or numbness down there is a huge thing. Pudendal [00:44:25] neuralgia, it could be numbness or it could also be pain, and there's the pudendal nerve that [00:44:30] runs through the obturator internus muscle, which is a hip muscle, gets compressed and chaos ensues. [00:44:35]
[00:44:35] Dr. Taz: So hip pain could be pelvic floor dysfunction- Yeah
[00:44:37] Dr. Taz: as well, right?
[00:44:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: I say back pain can be. Back
[00:44:39] Dr. Taz: pain.
[00:44:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: I, [00:44:40] at this point, the pelvic floor to me is, like, the entire body.
[00:44:43] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:44:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because the [00:44:45] adductors, the ankle, your gait can throw off the pelvic floor. Mm-hmm. So most of the cases that come [00:44:50] in This is where I differ from pelvic floor PT, um, is I'm looking at those [00:44:55] fascial lines.
[00:44:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: In Chinese medicine, it's called the jing jin or the sinew channels. Mm-hmm. But it's the, the fascial lines. [00:45:00] I'm looking at the integration of the whole and seeing how that pelvis is functioning and moving, [00:45:05] how tension plays throughout. It's like a game of Jenga, right? If one thing moves, for you to [00:45:10] stay upright, something else has to move.
[00:45:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So if the adductor goes out, well, something else in the hip's [00:45:15] gonna go out.
[00:45:15] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:45:15] Dr. Jordan Barber: If that happens long enough or you're under enough duress or strain, you're gonna start getting [00:45:20] dysfunction.
[00:45:21] Dr. Taz: So will acupuncture help the tightened pelvic floor? What [00:45:25] else from Chinese medicine helps the tightened pelvic floor?
[00:45:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So we specifically use a subset, which is called dry needling.
[00:45:29] Dr. Taz: [00:45:30] Okay.
[00:45:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, and mostly because it's a non-retention art, and it's immediately, um... [00:45:35] It's very good at getting quick results- Mm-hmm ... and softening the muscle. You don't wanna sit on a [00:45:40] table with needles deep in your genitalia region for 40 [00:45:45] minutes, you know, listening to new age music.
[00:45:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm. It's probably no one's idea of a good time. Right, right. We're talking in and [00:45:50] out, get a release. Got it. Yeah, yeah. Um, so we do that. Herbs are useful when they're useful. [00:45:55] So in urination issues, uh, sometimes, and then I do a lot of neuromodulation, especially in [00:46:00] urinary, um, voiding disorders, um, or just when there's kind of [00:46:05] tension that just won't go away.
[00:46:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, I'll run small impulses through the pelvic floor, especially those, like, layer [00:46:10] three deeper muscles, levator ani muscles- Mm-hmm ... which are deep, deep pelvic floor muscles. Sometimes it's [00:46:15] hard to get even with the needle. We'll get close to it, and then I will Depolarize the [00:46:20] entire region
[00:46:20] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:46:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah.
[00:46:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so I ruptured my Achilles, uh, this Achilles in '22, [00:46:25] the left.
[00:46:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:26] Dr. Taz: Recovered, but then started to have some plantar [00:46:30] fasciitis in the right- Hmm ... probably 'cause of my gait
[00:46:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: off. Compens- yeah, it's the
[00:46:33] Dr. Taz: gait and compensation. And then- But
[00:46:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: that had to translate through your [00:46:35] pelvis.
[00:46:35] Dr. Taz: Exactly. It had to. And so then I know my right hip is now higher than my left hip-
[00:46:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm
[00:46:39] Dr. Taz: which has then, [00:46:40] then started some lower back pain and left hip pain. Yeah. So then n- once I became aware, and [00:46:45] then the other thing I noticed is I had this big anterior tilt, right? Because of those issues, yeah. This huge sway [00:46:50] in my, like, back because of all of this. So after I've been working a little bit more aggressively on [00:46:55] lower core work- Mm-hmm
[00:46:56] Dr. Taz: and trying to strengthen and do all this other stuff, I can see it [00:47:00] going away, and the pain's going away too over time. Yeah. I haven't yet done the acupuncture and the needling and all- Yeah ... those [00:47:05] different things, so.
[00:47:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, and, and general standard acupuncture is very good for more [00:47:10] systemic-
[00:47:10] Dr. Taz: Right
[00:47:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: like interrelationships. Um, for me, I tend to predominantly [00:47:15] use dry needling 'cause I just got too much to do.
[00:47:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:47:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I'm working there, which is a subset of [00:47:20] acupuncture. Yeah. So it's still acupuncture, but.
[00:47:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah, so interesting. So pain, pelvic floor, [00:47:25] again, you know, responsive to some of these modalities, for sure.
[00:47:28] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. I, I don't know [00:47:30] how much you work with herbs, but I get these questions all the time. What are your top five favorite, [00:47:35] quote-unquote, Chinese herbs?
[00:47:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: See, I hate that question. And, and- I know
[00:47:38] Dr. Taz: you do. That's why
[00:47:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: I asked
[00:47:39] Dr. Taz: [00:47:40] it ...
[00:47:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: because, because it's the wrong way- It's so... I know ... of using Chinese medicine.
[00:47:43] Dr. Taz: I know, I know.
[00:47:44] Dr. Taz: Right?
[00:47:44] Dr. Jordan Barber: But that's a question people ask- [00:47:45] I love herbs- ...
[00:47:46] Dr. Taz: all the
[00:47:46] Dr. Jordan Barber: time ... like goji tea I love, but that's 'cause I just wanna eat it. It's tasty, [00:47:50] right? Yeah. Um, as a man, I like certain herbs for me because of my [00:47:55] own problems, right? Right. So I'm what we call tend to be yang deficient. Yeah. I'm 46. Yeah. I'm getting [00:48:00] older.
[00:48:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:48:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I love lu rong, which is deer antler, deer antler velvet, right? Yeah. Things like that. But [00:48:05] it tastes terrible. Yeah. Um, but we know that it increases IGF-1, right? So [00:48:10] it's a major stimulator. But I'm not gonna tell people to take lu rong- Yeah ... if they don't need it. Why [00:48:15] would you do that?
[00:48:15] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:48:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I hate that.
[00:48:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: I mean, great digestive herbs are great digestive [00:48:20] herbs, but even there, the people who need ginger are not the people who need mint. It's
[00:48:23] Dr. Taz: personalization.
[00:48:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's [00:48:25] personalization. Yeah. And that's why I hate the question. Not because it's a bad question- Yeah ... but [00:48:30] because anything I say would be the wrong thing.
[00:48:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Well, this is a common question. Yeah. This is... Well, this is the way people [00:48:35] think.
[00:48:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's TikTok now.
[00:48:36] Dr. Taz: Exactly.
[00:48:37] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah.
[00:48:37] Dr. Taz: That's the way people think about Chinese [00:48:40] medicine. This is social media. This is TikTok. But speaking of which, Gen Z is dialing [00:48:45] into Chinese medicine. What do you think is going on there?
[00:48:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: So Gen Z is [00:48:50] turning to integrative medicine and alternative medicine. Yeah. But you have to look how they grew up. They're first [00:48:55] fully online-
[00:48:55] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:48:55] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, generation. They grew up through financial issues, COVID. They've [00:49:00] lost trust in any systems.
[00:49:01] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:49:02] Dr. Jordan Barber: They also want personalization. You know, uh, the, the saying [00:49:05] is that they, they want their medicine as personalized as their Spotify list.
[00:49:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah .
[00:49:08] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? They want it to know them. They wanna be seen- [00:49:10] Right ... and heard. Right. As all of us do, but, like, Gen Xers like myself or whatever are like, "Eh." [00:49:15] He's not paying attention to me. I don't care.
[00:49:17] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:49:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Whatever. Like, he's just a bad doctor. Right. I don't take it personal. Right. [00:49:20] They're like, "Why are you not paying attention to me?"
[00:49:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right. They're also dealing with new issues at a younger age. [00:49:25] Yes, for sure. Stress and everything else, and how that's affecting them, and they're very aware of it because they're [00:49:30] fact-checking everything because they have AI. They have computers. 'Cause they can, yeah. They can.
[00:49:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:49:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's not a bad thing, [00:49:35] right?
[00:49:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's just a new generation, so they're turning to it. And then of course, [00:49:40] influencers, which we love and hate, right? Mm-hmm. You, you know, social media's done wonders of exposing everything, [00:49:45] but you can't go on a 45-minute discourse on herbs on [00:49:50] TikTok. Right. It's just not gonna happen. Right. You're not gonna get the, the, the, the bites on that, right?
[00:49:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: But [00:49:55] you can easily say, "Oh my God, ginger is phenomenal. I've been drinking this ginger tea, and my digestion's great, and I'm not [00:50:00] bloated." The problem is everyone goes and drinks ginger, and those that have ulcers and hot issues, that's the [00:50:05] worst herb for them they can get. Right,
[00:50:06] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:50:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? Or gua sha, which has done...
[00:50:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's become an [00:50:10] aesthetic thing- Mm-hmm ... which is great. It's, sure, it increases circulation. But gua sha used clinically, which is a scraping [00:50:15] modality, looks like you've been dragged down the road. Right. And you're not gonna put that on [00:50:20] TikTok. Right. Although some people put it on there, but don't do that-
[00:50:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: unless you understand what's going on- Right ... and how your circulation is. And if you're [00:50:25] on blood thinners, you're going to hospital.
[00:50:26] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:50:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So that's, that's kinda like where [00:50:30] we're at right now with Gen Z. Right. They're incredible, and they're such a smart [00:50:35] generation, and they're turning to all this, but Western medicine isn't serving them.
[00:50:39] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:50:40]
[00:50:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: Are we ready as integrated practitioners to serve them? We're trying, but there's a time and place that you [00:50:45] need Western medicine.
[00:50:46] Dr. Taz: What's your hope for Chinese medicine?
[00:50:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: My hope for Chinese medicine is that we're taken more [00:50:50] seriously.
[00:50:50] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:50:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? The practitioners are very serious people who are dedicated to [00:50:55] this art, and if we can be part of that resource, [00:51:00] right?
[00:51:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, the AMA talked about the physician-led model that they tried to push forward a while ago, that [00:51:05] everyone's under the physician, which is fine.
[00:51:07] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:07] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's great. But we're [00:51:10] nowheres in there. We're not part of systems-based medicine. Mm. We're outside of that bell curve. If we could [00:51:15] just come closer to systems-based medicine, I think so many people can be helped.
[00:51:19] Dr. Jordan Barber: That's my hope, [00:51:20] is to help our people.
[00:51:22] Dr. Taz: I think my goal is to integrate the [00:51:25] methodology and the philosophy into everything that doctors do and the way we see a [00:51:30] patient.
[00:51:30] Dr. Jordan Barber: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:30] Dr. Taz: You know, I think it would change so much. It would probably save healthcare costs, honestly. It
[00:51:34] Dr. Jordan Barber: would ...
[00:51:34] Dr. Taz: because [00:51:35] you are narrowing and you are honing in on what this particular person needs versus [00:51:40] this whole group.
[00:51:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: And- Go ahead ... that's the difference right now, though, is just that with healthcare costs is [00:51:45] that insurances are looking at quarterly reports and the money they can save [00:51:50] now and not the money you can save in 10 years.
[00:51:51] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:52] Dr. Jordan Barber: So integrated medicine, functional [00:51:55] medicine has always had a loss there, even though- Right
[00:51:56] Dr. Jordan Barber: we know even they're cutting GLPs. Right, right. And regardless how you feel about them, we know that they d-
[00:51:59] Dr. Taz: [00:52:00] They do something ...
[00:52:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: they do a lot of things- Yeah ... as far as long term- Right ... especially in a pa- in the patient population that needs them.
[00:52:04] Dr. Taz: [00:52:05] Right.
[00:52:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So cutting out diabetes, cutting out renal disease, lowering cardiac incidents, it's a great thing.
[00:52:09] Dr. Taz: [00:52:10] Right. It's huge, yeah.
[00:52:11] Dr. Jordan Barber: But they don't wanna pay for that now. Yeah. But they'll pay for all that care later- Yeah ... that's because they're only looking [00:52:15] at the quarterly report.
[00:52:15] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:52:16] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, that's our problem right now. Yeah.
[00:52:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. It really is a [00:52:20] problem right now. Yeah. Well, you wrote a book.
[00:52:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: I did.
[00:52:22] Dr. Taz: Tell us about the book.
[00:52:23] Dr. Taz: What, what can we find in [00:52:25] the book? What's going on in there?
[00:52:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: So the book comes out May 19th, uh, and I wrote it with Dr. Peter Caron. Um, [00:52:30] uh, he's within my facility. He's a great person. We, we work side by side. Um, [00:52:35] we wanted a book to give to our patients. Mm-hmm. There was nothing out there, and we got tired of saying [00:52:40] everything.
[00:52:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:52:40] Dr. Jordan Barber: Uh, we also wanted the book to give to our students 'cause we were both, uh, former [00:52:45] academics in, in teaching, to help connect the dots 'cause the students are too busy memorizing everything that they [00:52:50] don't know how to connect the dots.
[00:52:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:52:51] Dr. Jordan Barber: This isn't the book to explain all the nuances of Chinese medicine.
[00:52:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's a million books [00:52:55] out there. This is written from the mind of the clinician of how we see. Mm. That's why it's called Thinking in Chinese Medicine.
[00:52:59] Dr. Taz: [00:53:00] Mm.
[00:53:00] Dr. Jordan Barber: But it's accessible to anyone that's willing to engage with it. Um, it's great [00:53:05] for when we wanted to meet with medical doctors- Yeah ... and say, "This is how we think."
[00:53:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:53:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:53:10] There's no woo in here. We're not anti-woo by any means. Right. But it, it makes it [00:53:15] simple, so you can understand it because it's a thought process. And what I didn't realize, [00:53:20] Peter and I talked about after, is that it's so timely because it's the thing that AI can't replace.
[00:53:24] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:53:24] Dr. Jordan Barber: AI [00:53:25] can help understand a lot of things.
[00:53:26] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's a great tool, but the nuances that a human [00:53:30] picks up That's the uniqueness- Mm ... of Chinese medicine, [00:53:35] but also the uniqueness of any good medical doctor. So at the end of the day, this is really a book about what good [00:53:40] medicine should be, like you were saying of that integrative model and how to [00:53:45] use it within a larger system to get better outcomes.
[00:53:48] Dr. Taz: It's been- That's
[00:53:48] Dr. Jordan Barber: what this book is ...
[00:53:49] Dr. Taz: it's been a game [00:53:50] changer for, for me personally and for patients in our practices, too, and I know that for sure. [00:53:55] So I feel like it very much needs to be integrated. The philosophy needs to be taught, and then the [00:54:00] integration needs to be taught, too. Mm. How you kind of keep moving back and forth, you know, between those worlds.
[00:54:04] Dr. Taz: And I [00:54:05] think for the patients or for our viewers or listeners, you know, what they need to understand is [00:54:10] that Chinese medicine doesn't sit necessarily outside of the medical model. [00:54:15] It can be a part of your overall medical package or medical- Mm ... team, you know? And [00:54:20] hopefully, as we move forward in time and, you know, can, can convince others of the [00:54:25] same, you know, it'll be- it'll become the standard of care.
[00:54:27] Dr. Taz: It won't become outside of care. [00:54:30] What's the state of, of research right now when it comes to Chinese medicine?
[00:54:33] Dr. Jordan Barber: So I've published. [00:54:35] Okay. And I have another paper coming out soon, hopefully, if it makes it a peer review.
[00:54:38] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:54:39] Dr. Jordan Barber: Not many of us are [00:54:40] publishing. Mm.
[00:54:42] Dr. Taz: Um- Do you think that would help?
[00:54:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: I don't know, [00:54:45] honestly, because a lot of the research, it's slowly changing, but a lot of research [00:54:50] is therefore Chinese medicine works, therefore acupuncture works.
[00:54:53] Dr. Jordan Barber: It's not mechanism [00:54:55] based, and what the world wants to understand is the mechanism as far as the academic world. Why is it [00:55:00] working? You have proved that if you do this, person has better sleep and have increased REM [00:55:05] state, but why? And there is some research out there, and that's what I'm starting to do.
[00:55:09] Dr. Jordan Barber: You know, I have a [00:55:10] paper on low, uh, lower urinary tract syndrome that I'm- Mm-hmm ... hoping coming out. There's purely mechanism based, and it actually [00:55:15] doesn't even talk about Chinese medicine, but it's solely Chinese medicine because it's understanding what's going [00:55:20] on. Mm-hmm. Stimulus and ways of accessing the body and in a cohesive model.
[00:55:24] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:55:25]
[00:55:25] Dr. Jordan Barber: We're missing that right now because as practitioners, we're not trained to do [00:55:30] research. Right. We're clinicians.
[00:55:31] Dr. Taz: I have the same issue, yeah.
[00:55:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: And the people who are doing the [00:55:35] research don't have our training, so they're comparing sham versus not. [00:55:40] Right. And that makes no sense- Right. Right ... because you can take cutaneous visceral response, uh, reflex response, [00:55:45] and therefore any stimulus on the body has a, an effect somewhere s- in an organ that's, uh- Yeah
[00:55:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: innervated by [00:55:50] that dermatome. So how do you say sham versus [00:55:55] not, right? It's very ... It's, it's just the wrong way of understanding the medicine. Instead, we [00:56:00] should be looking at mechanisms and how to apply those to difficult cases.
[00:56:04] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:56:05]
[00:56:05] Dr. Jordan Barber: So there is research. It's improving, but we're not there yet.
[00:56:09] Dr. Taz: [00:56:10] Mm.
[00:56:10] Dr. Jordan Barber: And that's the problem.
[00:56:12] Dr. Taz: So much to do. So what would you tell someone listening or [00:56:15] watching today who's curious about Chinese medicine? Well,
[00:56:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: despite all the negative that we just said- [00:56:20]
[00:56:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:56:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: Chinese medicine hasn't disappeared for thousands of years, and it's not going anywhere because [00:56:25] it works, right? So that's the first thing I would say.
[00:56:28] Dr. Jordan Barber: And if you're interested in Chinese medicine, find a [00:56:30] practitioner, and then have a conversation with them because it has to be the practitioner for you.
[00:56:34] Dr. Taz: [00:56:35] Mm.
[00:56:35] Dr. Jordan Barber: Right? If they don't seem like they're connecting with you or understanding you, or [00:56:40] you're looking for something specific during your healthcare journey
[00:56:43] Dr. Jordan Barber: Like, if you come to me for wellness and [00:56:45] relaxation, I'm the wrong person.
[00:56:46] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:56:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: There's nothing relaxing about what I do.
[00:56:49] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:56:49] Dr. Jordan Barber: But [00:56:50] if you're coming to get out of pain, I'm the right person for you, providing it's the pain I treat.
[00:56:54] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:56:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:56:55] Right? You have to have those conversations 'cause an acupuncturist doesn't mean anything.
[00:56:58] Dr. Jordan Barber: It means they're licensed and trained. [00:57:00]
[00:57:00] Dr. Taz: Right. Beyond that-
[00:57:01] Dr. Jordan Barber: Full stop. Yeah. Right? That's it. You have to find the person that understands [00:57:05] what you're dealing with and where you are on that journey
[00:57:08] Dr. Taz: Such helpful advice. I'm [00:57:10] assuming the books are available everywhere books are sold.
[00:57:12] Dr. Jordan Barber: Everywhere
[00:57:12] Dr. Taz: books are sold.
[00:57:13] Dr. Taz: Are you on all social media?
[00:57:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: I [00:57:15] am on, unfortunately, all social media. Um Okay. What's your handle? So it's [00:57:20] jbarberlac.
[00:57:20] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:57:20] Dr. Jordan Barber: So LAC stands for licensed acupuncturist. Yep.
[00:57:23] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:57:23] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, I'm [00:57:25] more active on others. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I detest social media, but I [00:57:30] understand its usefulness. Necessary evil.
[00:57:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah. It's, uh, one of the necessities of our time.
[00:57:32] Dr. Jordan Barber: Because I'm, I, I will doom scroll just like the things that I tell [00:57:35] patients- All of us do ... not to do. All of us do. It's, you know, 10:00 PM, and I'm like, "Oh, no."
[00:57:37] Dr. Taz: Why am I here?
[00:57:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah.
[00:57:39] Dr. Taz: All right. [00:57:40] Final question. What makes you Hol?
[00:57:41] Dr. Jordan Barber: Ah. So I'm gonna go back to when we talked about the [00:57:45] emperor and stillness. Uh, I am human.
[00:57:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: There are many things that are not whole [00:57:50] about me, right? Because I live in New York City. This place is, is crazy.
[00:57:54] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:57:54] Dr. Jordan Barber: [00:57:55] Right? I'm born in New York. Um, but I try as much as I can to keep [00:58:00] a still, calm mind and a joyous heart, and I believe [00:58:05] despite all the adversities I've, I've dealt with and continually deal with, those insurance companies, oh my God, [00:58:10] I can go back to that center and everything's okay.
[00:58:14] Dr. Jordan Barber: Even [00:58:15] when I'm like, "Hmm, the world might be ending today," everything's gonna be okay. So I [00:58:20] think that's what makes me whole, is that I, I take these principles to heart, and I take that clear [00:58:25] principle of keeping a very still, joyous heart, but not overly joyous, just calm, [00:58:30] and I think that's what makes me whole because everything else, the cheeseburger, all [00:58:35] the examples are really me that I talked about here.
[00:58:36] Dr. Jordan Barber: Yeah. So-
[00:58:37] Dr. Taz: Got it. Okay ...
[00:58:38] Dr. Jordan Barber: you know, I think that's what makes me whole. [00:58:40]
[00:58:40] Dr. Taz: Are there practices that you- Do on a repetitive [00:58:45] basis to keep a calm mind and a joyous heart?
[00:58:47] Dr. Jordan Barber: They change seasonally and depending on what I'm dealing with. [00:58:50] Mm. Um, so I- Fair ... I've always been an avid meditator, but meditation for me borders into [00:58:55] cultivation and Chinese practices.
[00:58:57] Dr. Jordan Barber: Um, but ultimately they're just stillness practices. [00:59:00] Sometimes I do movement-based therapies. We call Dalian, Qigong, Tai Chi- Mm-hmm ... depending. Um, I'm a [00:59:05] former martial artist 'cause- Ah,
[00:59:06] Dr. Taz: okay ...
[00:59:06] Dr. Jordan Barber: I've broken too much and I, so I'm done. Um, but it [00:59:10] doesn't leave you. So I have a lot of practices like that, but ultimately I like to sit alone [00:59:15] and just enjoy nature.
[00:59:16] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:59:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: That by itself is beautiful because the world is [00:59:20] beautiful-
[00:59:20] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[00:59:21] Dr. Jordan Barber: if you see it that way.
[00:59:22] Dr. Taz: I love it. Well, if you've ever been [00:59:25] curious about Chinese medicine and you'd like to learn more, definitely check out Dr. [00:59:30] Jordan's book, and for all of you watching, remember, we go deep on Chinese [00:59:35] medicine, acupuncture, herbs, all of it, in my private community, which is The [00:59:40] Circle.
[00:59:40] Dr. Taz: Please feel free to join us there. It's at Hol+.co/circle. We post new [00:59:45] episodes every week. I wanna see Chinese medicine become the standard of [00:59:50] care in the medical model, meaning integrated into the medical model. Hopefully, we can see [00:59:55] that with the next generation who is so curious about this method of medicine, and it is [01:00:00] not woo, right?
[01:00:01] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. It is very practical, very science-oriented, very [01:00:05] nature-oriented, and, you know, it has really been such an important part of my personal [01:00:10] healing journey, which is a part of why I think I'm just so passionate about it. So thank you for joining us today, [01:00:15] and thank you all for watching and listening.
[01:00:17] Dr. Jordan Barber: Thank you.
[01:00:17] Dr. Taz: Before you go, take a second [01:00:20] to reflect on what stood out for you today. Then, if you can, leave a quick [01:00:25] review wherever you're listening. It really helps other people discover Hol+ and start [01:00:30] their own healing journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at drtazmd. [01:00:35] I love hearing how these episodes are supporting you.