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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matt Brown. The podcast where pastor and author Matt Brown debriefs your questions about Christianity and current issues shaping our culture. Thank you for listening and enjoy the show. Well, hey everybody. Welcome to the debrief with pastor Matt Brown where he is getting answers for you to your questions about the Bible and Christianity and culture. I'm Stephanie Schaefer. I get to fill in for Don and today in Hostar Show. How you doing today? I'm good freaking you out. Yeah, we're talking about ghost stories. So one of my favorite ghost stories involves you. By the way, remember that house we went to to exercise the ghost from the house. I do. That lady sent both Madison and Kennedy gifts at their wedding to say thank you because they haven't had any instances since we went there. Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Yeah, that's my favorite Stephanie story. I think you told it last time I was on the show. I feel like you've told a recent. Yeah, it's just that he's like, well, what are we going to do if we see a ghost? I'm like, why don't have that run the ghost? I just don't run you. Yeah, no, you're, but the part that scared me was then you got serious like listen, but if something does happen in there, just stand behind me and like, oh, he thinks something could actually happen in here. I was joking around. I'm like, oh, we're going to go see a ghost. I'm sure it's nothing. And you said that I was like, oh, this might actually be scary. It was a little scary. It wasn't terrible. Yeah. Well, it's always weird to go into someone's house. I'm going to go to the house when they say, hey, I've been seeing some weird stuff in here. Yeah, I want to move. Yeah, I want to move. Can you come pray over my house? Sure. Yeah, let's come over. Let's have some snacks. We didn't have any snacks. I think we didn't have any snacks. No, we just prayed and left. Yeah, I'm going there very quickly. All right. All right. So, first of all, I want to ask I saw on Instagram. You and Tim, we got to go to movie premiere. Yeah. Yeah. We have a couple directors at our church now and a growing Hollywood population that attends and follows sandals. So that's kind of cool. And when to go support my friends movie, Sweetwater, be praying for it. It's not doing well. And so, you know, movies cost millions of dollars to make. Yeah. And my buddies stressed out a little bit because I didn't realize how much money it takes to make movies. But I thought it was a good movie. And I was a little concerned, you know, because America's past is racist. That's just the reality. But I thought that it portrayed the reality racism really well. But it ended very quickly. I was very hopeful. And I didn't feel shamed, you know, as a white person, which sometimes when I watch those things, I just feel like, God, you know, I'm everything about me. It's terrible. You know, and I think it dealt with the reality of racism. You know, color barriers in sports. And I think the origin of the Harlem group, Glove Trotters that I didn't know about. I thought it was great. And I did not know that the first black player in the NBA's name was Sweetwater. And I think that's the sad thing is that he just kind of got lost in history. Yeah. And he's a real guy. And it's interesting. The movie opens with the character, Sweetwater is talking to Jesus. Jesus is in the back of the cab. It's Jim Kovizel. My wife's like, he's not Jesus. I'm like, he is to me. So if for those who don't know is it is Jim Kovizel. So he plays Jesus in the passion. But he's in the backseat of the cab. And so Jim Kovizel. So it is a fun movie. I had a great time. We got to meet the cast. Some of my one of my favorite actors, I've had from Dumb and Dumber. He's the gas man that's trying to hunt down Harry and Lloyd. And so he was in the line with us. And I was like, how's he know I got gas. And so he just kind of laughed at me. One of my favorite actors from Jaws, what's his name? Richard Dreyfus was there. He's short. I mean, and no offense to anybody out there who is vertically challenged. That dude is tiny. I had no idea how short he was. God to meet some other actors. Cream Abdul Jabbar was there. That dude is not short. That's because I'm an I mean, he lumbers. So I was telling my parents. My parents are the same age as cream or cream is same age to my parents. I asked my mom, who is not five feet tall anymore. I say, can you imagine being seven two at your age? And I just can't imagine what that's like. And so I love cream Abdul Jabbar because he fought Bruce Lee in one of my first movies I ever watched. I know. So it was great. You know, when sweet water comes out, go see it. It's a good movie. I think I saw it's on the Riverside Plaza over here. It's already out. It didn't do well. So, but my friend is a good guy and he's a great guy. And just know there are Christians that are trying to be light in a very, very dark world and make actually good movies. Christian movies get a really bad rap because sometimes they're not. Well, and he doesn't just make Christian movies. So he's a movie on Netflix called Blue Miracle, which is fantastic. He's made some great movies. And so just got a lot of conviction. And then Glen Keen was there who you will know him because he invented Ariel and the beast. I think he directed repunt. What's the one with the girl with the long blonde hair in the tower. Tangled Tangled. So he directed Tangled Tarzan. Okay. Yeah. So he was a big Disney guy. So Glenn was there. He's a fantastic guy. He has a new project company coming out about the creation story, which I actually think we have a question about. Yeah. So Glenn is actually making a movie about the creation story of God. And so super talented people in our church. It just it just amazes me how God has drawn such incredible people to our church. And it was it was great. My wife looked fantastic. There's a bunch of rich dudes there. I was like, don't leave me for a billionaire. Please. Yeah. Cause my wife was being noticed, you know, which you know part of that's great. And part of it's like I'm a poor pastor. Remember what I said when I got married. Remember we married for love. Yeah. So she didn't leave me as far as I know. No, she came up with you. Well, right now she's she's in Idaho. So I don't know. Yeah. We'll have to ask her. She didn't run away to Hollywood. So I think you're no way to Idaho, which is a strange place to run away to. Yeah. Except for our listeners, not hope. Thank you. Keep your eye. All right. So let's speak of the creation. So I want to go and hop into our first question here. So Steve wrote in and said, why are Christian pastors not teaching the creation story as it's written in the Bible? It seems like a lot of pastors are not preaching six literal days and except instead are accepting evolutionary theory for creation in the age of the earth. Pastor Matt, what do you think about the creation story as it's written in the Bible? Right. So Steve, let's unpack your question. Why are Christian pastors not teaching the creation story? I would put an asterisk here and I would say as you understand it. So Christian pastors are diverse. What the church has taught about the creation story has varied from century to century. Our understanding has been greatly shaped based upon Greek thought. And so a lot of what we understand is the creation story is interpreted through a Greek understanding, not a Hebrew understanding of what the text says. So here's the first challenge, Steve. A Genesis chapter one and Genesis chapter two are two creation stories. So probably two rivaling Christian stories within Judaism or adopted from other cultures that are older than Judaism, but made their way into the text. And so when you read Genesis, you know, everything prior to Abraham is pre-Jewish history. So the story of Noah, that's not Jewish history. That's that's earth history. The story of Babylon. You know, these are not Hebrew stories. These are stories that predate Judaism and their understanding. So the story of Adam and Eve, the story of Kenan Abel, I don't know what I'm missing. So but Judaism really starts in Genesis 12 with the call of Abraham. And who is he? He's not Jewish. He's Middle Eastern. And he's called out to follow God. But he's called out to follow a God that he has some understanding. Genesis one and two are probably two rival stories within what was considered orthodox acceptable. And so that's really hard for us as Westerners to understand because we live in a black or white culture, but Middle Eastern culture Asian culture is both and. And so two things can seem to contradict, but agree in Jewish thought. And that is very hard for us in our Western thinking. And you know, where things things are black or white. And so when we come to, you know, this thought, we just say, well, how can there be two creation stories? Well, the people who put that in there and said, look, these are both true. I mean, I wasn't there when they put them in there. And so, you know, God has worked through. And Jesus affirms both. I mean, you know, Jesus affirms Genesis chapter one when he talks about marriage. I mean, he quotes from Genesis 127. So it has to be authentic. And I mean, if Jesus affirms it, I, I affirm. And you know, Jesus is the new Adam. So that affirms Genesis two story that, you know, because Genesis one does not name Adam like Genesis two and three and four where, you know, Eve gets her name after the fall. A lot of people don't realize that her name prior to that is ish, which means woman ish. And so Eve is her name because she's the mother of all living creatures, which is what Eve means. Adam can mean man, man, kind or can mean mud. So out of the mud, God creates mud man or dirt man, which I love to call Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, Adam, and dirt man. So he's from Modesto. So I think it works. So, so, so Steve, you know, here's what I would say some of what you've been taught is true. And some of what you've been taught is is is been presented within your denominations understanding. You know, and so let me give an example of that a lot of Christians want to know about the rapture. The rapture is something that is only taught in Western Christianity and those who learn the Bible from something that's called a school field Bible. There is no teaching on the rapture. It does not occur until the 1830s a woman has a vision. School field begins to work through this vision. And I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying you just need to know until 1830 no one talked about the rapture. There's only four passages in the Bible that that allude to it. And then there's this whole theology, this whole thinking, this whole understanding, this whole interpretive framework. But if you go to Europe or you go to the Orthodox church or even in Catholicism. And they're not going to know what you're talking about because it is a schism of Western theological understanding. And so we have to understand this that just because I've been taught something does not mean that all Christians have taught this or believe this. It could be something that has been taught for a period of time. It's something that could have been taught in a select group of Christians. And so, you know, there are billions of Christians on earth billions. That's with a B. And so we have to be careful that what we assume is what's being taught is not that's what been taught for all time. So here's the debate in first, he's question is is the Hebrew word yum, which is the word for day. So, how yum the day or two day. Is it is it a literal 24 hour period or is it figurative. The problem, Steve, is that Genesis one is poetic. And so we have to be very, very careful when we when we read poetry, you know, is this literal or is it poetry. And so poetry is is something that, you know, is used to describe an event. In a way that that that teaches truth, but it's not literal poems are not literal, but they are truthful. They do communicate truth. And so, so that's the debate. Steve, so, you know, I lean towards God did something in six literal days. Whether or not that was the creation of all of the heavens and all of the earth or like Dr. Selhamer who writes, I think the name of his book is Genesis is on packs. We've talked about his book many, many times on this show. If you guys can Google that Dr. Selhamer. It's no longer in print. I think I paid 250 bucks for my copy. Genesis on bound and so really what that is, Steve is unleashing the text to interpret the words for what they say not to interpret the words for what we've been taught they mean. And so what Dr. Selhamer really, really championed is that the text should be interpreted by its words not by our understanding or how it's been understood for centuries. And like I said, so much of our understanding of the creation story and actually have an end hell are shaped more. If I Greek thought than they are by the scriptures. You know, where do we get this idea of people being burned and tortured for all eternity that's Greek thought not not really what you see in the text. Jesus says, you know, you don't want to go there and just say some things are going to be weeping and gnashing of teeth the place where you know the maggot does not die. Okay, he got me Jesus. You know, I'm not I don't want to go there. But this idea of a pitch fork and burning fire forever and all that stuff really comes out of Greek thought then medieval thought and it's more shaped by Dante in his inferno, which is poetry. And so what I mean by poetry it's it's like us choosing to understand the Bible today through a movie. Well, they didn't have movies, but Dante had a play. He had he could write a poem. And so oftentimes things, you know, shaped Christians beliefs and something very, very popular can shape our belief rather than the text. So you said it seems like a lot of pastors are not teaching six literal days. And the answer for that is Steve is we just don't know. Yeah. The word is young. It typically means a translated a 24 hour period. But Peter says a day to the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. Yeah, that's an actual verse. So, you know, is Peter responding to the creation story. We don't know. But there is a text that would allow us to have some wiggle room in terms of the literal nature of Genesis one. I lean towards six little days and then you said, you are the accepting evolutionary theory for creation. Right. And so, you know, species are changing. I mean, we're seeing this things are changing right now. Like you have little kids. Little kids jaws are changing right before now. So one of the huge problems with little kids. And if you're raising them is they don't eat hard foods. Everything you give a child to soft. So what's happening that our jaws are shrinking. Our facial muscles are shrinking our faces are changing our body is evolving because we're not forcing them to chew hard things. So if you're concerned, if you have a little kid and you're concerned about your child's face. Make them chew jerky. I don't you don't want them to choke, but but everything shouldn't be soft part of what's important in the development of children is they need to learn to do hard things. Our bodies respond and change to hard things. Like go Google a picture of what they think people will look like in 50 years that just stare computers all day. Our skin will change our eyes will change our bodies will change because our bodies adapt to the circumstances that we find ourselves in. Now, is that evolution operating outside of the will of God? No, God has created species humans to be able to adapt to the conditions that they face. And so it's why kids all have to have braces to think what what an earthed people you know have to have braces well they didn't because they chew hard things. And you know our bodies can't make room for our wisdom teeth anymore because our jaws keep shrinking. And so that's something that we can see right now right here. So what Dr. Selhammer talks about because his daughter went to MIT and she kind of lost her faith and so he's a look. Here's what the text says and so what he teaches and so he was my professor and I'm not saying he was right, but he was influential in my life. He says God did something for six literal days. He was working and so his interpretation is maybe it's the creation of the garden, maybe it's the preparation of the earth for man. There's a great book called the Genesis Ignima, which is written by a non Christian and he says Genesis one literally lays out evolution. And so his argument is in Genesis one when God says let there be light, it's not light, it's eyes, it's the evolution of eyes because when you look at Genesis one that the sun, the moon and the stars are already present. So why then does he say later let there be light because this evolutionary biologist says eyes had not been created yet. And so once eyes are created the ability to see then you have species have to develop camouflage the ability to hunt. So it's an incredible book and so so you said why aren't they preaching six literal days is just because at the end of the day, Steve, is this does accepting Genesis one as literal get you in heaven. No, so at the end of the day, what's most important your center Genesis one God made it that settles it. But and then Genesis two and three creation is fallen. How are we going to fix that. So the ultimate issue, theologically is not how did God make it but how is God going to redeem a fallen and broken creation. So that's why I would say and I can't speak for all pastors everywhere. But the big issue is not this battle between evolution and Christianity and faith. There's really been I think a meeting of the minds and I think that, you know, evolutionary evolutionists are now seeing God in everything and really what changed that was, you know, the understanding of the DNA strand. It's like a computer program. It does it's been programmed by someone and something and so you know when I was a kid evolution was kind of the understanding and now evolutionary biologists are going, okay, this looks like code. Well, who creates code a divine mind. So they're backing away from this. So I think there's less attack from evolutionists and people who just say, well, I believe in science and evolution, they're really not up to date on science and evolution. They're there there are 20 or 30 years ago because everything changed with the unpacking of DNA that that kind of settled it in the community. Okay, there's design here. This is not random. And so that's what Darwin argued for is, you know, these random mistakes that ultimately move creation forward and I don't think most people believe that anymore. Some still do, but you know, they're, they're scientific dinosaurs. So, okay. The theory for creation in the age of the earth. No, here's what we know about the Earth Steve. It's old. It's really old and it's older than 6000 years. So it's dangerous theologically to interpret Genesis by adding up all the ages and saying this is the age of the earth. That is not something that we're called to do. Yeah. So he was. Yeah. Well, and Hebrews are not interested in a literal story. The names that are in Genesis and their ages are to create theological truth and to create a, a, a ancestral connection from the past to the present. It is not a historical book saying, okay, here's how old creation is. Genesis doesn't tell us everything Steve. For example, who on earth did Kane marry? Yeah. Who did Seth marry? Why is Kane afraid to be banished? Who's going to kill him? Who's going to hunt him? Why does he need a symbol of God's protection on him as he flees? There's other people. There's other people who would be aware of what he did to his brother. So there's more there, Steve, than what the text says. The text is trying to communicate something specifically in the Torah. Why do we work six days and then rest on the seventh? Because God worked six days and rested on the seventh. And so that's why we do it. We're tying our life on earth to God's creative giving of life on earth. And so that's where that is. So Pastor Matt, what do you think about the creation story? Look, it's the word of God. It has been understood differently at different periods of time. So I think that that's changing what orthodox and by what what's orthodox, Steve, it's what is accepted as true? Okay. What what fits within Christianity? And so here's what fits within Christianity. God did something for six days, six literal days. And when are you not Christian? When you say God did not do it. God is not the creative element that did all of this. Evolution has no answer for where things started. It has an answer for how things are changing. But you cannot, I mean, at some point in time, where did matter come from? Where did time come from? Where did these things come from? And God exists outside of space, time and matter. And Genesis one has all of those things coming together. Here's the other thing, Steve, is the universe. And I think most scientists, I actually want to have a friend of mine on our show, who's a scientist and we can actually ask him these questions. But the universe has a beginning. And it seems to have an end. What is the Bible teach? There was a beginning and there will be an end. And we need to prepare for that. So Steve, great question. Hopefully I didn't offend you or lose you. But oftentimes people believe what they've been taught. And they think that's what everyone else who's a Christian on earth believes. And there's just more diversity to that within the Christian community. So when I just love the point, you made that something doesn't have to be literal to be truthful. Like I think if you apply that to how you're reading this and how you're seeing that, you can get so much more out of it because it is truthful what it's saying, but it's not necessarily a literal word by word, account of everything. Yeah, if I write a poem about my wife and I say she's the most beautiful woman ever. It's true to me. But you know, there's a couple other billion guys in our thick could vote and have a different opinion. They might think they're wife. So things don't have to be literal. And the Bible says, you know, her feet are like that of a doe and her teeth are like a goat. Okay, well, take that literally that's not a love poem. But but it did mean something then, you know, her hair was like that of a horse's main. Wow. Okay. Well, you know, so we have to we have to leave room for okay, it meant something then and we're going to do the best that we can to understand that now. And so, you know, and I hear the other thing, Steve is I just think most pastors recognize they're not scientists. And so, you know, what do we affirm in in our series starting next week? She heard we're going to be in Genesis 127. God affirms the binary nature of gender male and female. And so, so that's something that, you know, so do I affirm that? Yes, Jesus firm that absolutely. So great question, Steve. Hopefully you'll stay as animals. All right. So Leanne wrote in episode 193, you were asked about women being pastors. You said it was unbi- unbiblical and talked about the order of creation and gave specific passages that you feel back that up. But in the 200th episode, you said you do believe it's biblical for women to be pastors and share passages that you feel support that idea. My question is, did you change your perspective? If so, what caused you to to believe differently? I may have misunderstood, which you're saying somewhere along the way and would appreciate it if you could clarify what you believe the Bible says about women pastors. Yeah, thank you, Leanne. Man, you panicked me. I had to go back and listen to episode 193. So episode 200, I was not prepped for those questions. So my lovely debrief team loves to give me diarrhea. And so they just... I wonder what the question about when pastors was from your wife though. Oh, yeah, wasn't. I love my wife. So she loves to give me diarrhea as well. So I wasn't prepped for that. So I went back and listened to both episode 193 and episode 200. And I think here's where the confusion lies. At Sandals, we use the term pastor to describe the top leadership. So that's why... So if the word pastor is what we're going to use for the highest level leadership of Sandals Church, can a woman be in that position? No. Here's the challenge. In the Bible, the word poignment pastor is not the word that the apostle Paul uses for the highest level of leadership in the church. That word is elder and or a Presbyter or bishop. So poignment is pastor, which is found in Ephesians 4-12, which there are offices that God has given these gifts to the church. Paul says to build them up for the work of the ministry. Paul does not use the word Presbyter and he does not use the word Presbyter and he does not use the word Episcopus in Ephesians 4-12. So again, the Bible's a puzzle and we have to put those pieces together. So the top leadership position in the church, I believe, should be a male. Both Titus says this. Paul says to Titus, Paul says this to Timothy. However, can women be pastors? Can women shepherd the flock? Can women teach? Man, in Titus, right after he gives the list of elders, he says that women should teach. So the assumption is that it's other women, but the text says that they should teach and they do teach. And so that's why Leanne, we're going to go through this series and we're going to unpack it. And so the Bible is full of women who teach, who lead, who prophesy, and who speak. And the Bible says Leanne, that a man should be the top role, both in the home and in the church. So where I think some of the confusion comes is oftentimes when we read the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, what I was trying to talk about there is that the word head can mean not just something vertically but something horizontally. And the way we use that in languages, I could say, you know, I'm the head. So Roche and Hebrew, I'm first. So in Hebrew, Roche means first or head. But it can also mean things got to come to a head. So it's a place of joining and connecting. And so all I was trying to say, Leanne is that the word can mean both head in the way that we understand it first or it can mean the place where which things come together. And so I think that's why Paul chose that word because it means both. And so men are to be the place where we come together for God in the church as a leader and men are to come together to make the family one. And so I apologize for the confusion. That's why we're going to do a whole series on this because I want to specifically say what we believe is a church. And so this is the problem like why Saddleback, one of our sister churches and Saddleback was helpful in starting Sandals Church. They were one of our supporting churches. They got kicked out of the Sothebos convention because they've ordained women as pastors. And so in Southern Baptist life, pastor is the highest position. But at Saddleback, like at Sandals, they're elder led. And those are all men. It's just a confusion of terms. And so just like if you're Catholic, you say, well, why don't we have priests? Well, the Bible says we're all priests, both men and women are priests. So we believe in what's called the priesthood of believers plural. All believers are priests serving God, which again goes back to Selene's question. It's why our children must operate their bodies like it's the temple of God because you are a priest and your body is the temple. And so we, as Christians, treat our bodies sexually in a way that honors the creative story of God back to Steve's question. Like, it all comes together. And so, and sex is not just pleasurable, but it's powerful. It creates life. And so, right, so what happens when you have sex out of the creative order, then you have abortion. And now I have to exterminate a child that it did not want. So I want to engage in the pleasurable side of sex, but I don't want to handle the powerful side of sex, which is it creates life. And so that's why God regulates sex for the Christian. This is how you should do it. And we look at what happens when they do it their own way. So, Leanne, that's a great, great question. And I apologize. And I realize I realize it's confusing. And what we're going to get into is, so again, it's the both and nature of the Hebrew thought in practice. We want things in our Western thought to be black and white either, either or. Hebrew thought is both and. So, who should be the leader of the church? A man. And Paul says in 1 Timothy chapter 2, he goes back to the creative order. And he says, and Eve was deceived when Eve stepped out of Adam's leadership position. And she made the decision creation fell. Having said that, all throughout scripture, when there are not men, God anoints and calls women to lead. So, in, and let me just give you another example that in Hebrew culture, what's the most important child? Does anyone know? First born. First born. Yes, first born. Who does God repeatedly choose? Not the first born. Right? So, ESAW was first. Jacob was second. Who did God choose? Jacob. The second born. So, God can sovereignly intervene and do as he chooses to bring about his plan. So, Isaac thought ESAW was the choice. He's the first born. God intervened and picked Jacob. Who, by the way, Jacob is a liar. Jacob's, Jacob is a disaster. But Jacob's name has changed to Israel. He who wrestles with God. That's what the name means and creates the people of Israel. And so, we see this constantly. Joseph, who's the son that saves Israel? It's not the first born. It's not the second born. It's not the third. It's not the fourth. It's not the fifth. It's not the sixth. It's not the seventh. It's not the eighth. It's not the ninth. It's not the tenth. See, eleventh. God chooses Joseph. But who, who does, who does he love? It's not Joseph. It's Benjamin. So, right. So, the father's favorite is not the one that God used to save. So, God can intervene and do as he chooses. And so, and if you struggle with that, what does it take to make a baby? Does anybody know? No one in here knows. Both men and women or? Yeah, my son-in-law's in here. He's like, oh, I don't know. What does it take? Sex. Sex. You need a man with a penis and a woman with a vagina, right? How do we get Jesus? God did his own thing. God is sovereign and God can do his own thing. So, God can say men, you should be the leader. Men, you should be the pastor. And God can choose Deborah. And God can choose Hulda. And God can choose Jason's four daughters to prophesy in the book of Acts. God is sovereign. And he can create a rule and then do what he chooses to make sure that the gospel continues. Right. So, God, what does God think about prostitutes? Is that good? Is that a good thing? If you're listening, I'm looking at my people. We would all agree prostitution is not a good thing. And yet, in Jericho, who does God save? Rehab, the prostitute who becomes the great, great grandmother of Jesus. God can redeem what he chooses to redeem. God can call what he chooses to call. God can do these things because God is sovereign. God is in control. And so, when people say, well, can a woman be a pastor? I would say that usually no, unless the Lord does something extraordinary and annoying so woman, like Deborah to lead, like Hulda to teach, like Mary to birth the Savior. God can do what he chooses to do. But we need to raise our men to lead. We need to raise our men to be strong. We need to raise our men to know the Word of God. And we need to make room for the anointing of the Lord when God clearly allows a woman to teach or a woman to lead. If you ask me, can a woman be a general? Well, is her name Joan of Arc? I'm going to go with Joan. She's a phenomenal leader. Typically, dudes lead better on the battlefield. That's not sexist. That's just reality. Okay, I mean, someone comes in my house, my wife's getting behind me. You know, that's the way we've made us. Now, you know, maybe you're a crossfit woman and you're going to step up. It's just we have to we have to just say that look, God created sexist, he created gender and he made men to be men. And we need to challenge that and lift that up and call men to be men. But we need to make room for the anointing of God. We had Lisa Bevere speak on Mother's Day a couple years ago. She's an extraordinary speaker. Southern Baptist don't think women should teach the best Southern Baptist teacher in the last 20 years of Beth Moore. It's not close. It's not close. Sorry, Southern seminary. It's not close, man. She's the best. She's a scholar. She's a great teacher. God has used her to transform and change lives. But she doesn't have a penis. So what do we do? We say, okay, the Lord, the Lord has anointed something here. And we're going to accept that. You know, even in my own denomination that does not ordain women, they mean they would kick us out for the ordination of women as pastors. And yet are two largest offerings are the any arm strong offering and the lot of moon offering. And they both represent women who were missionaries. There's no word missionary in the Bible. It's a puzzle. A possible is to be sent out. And so I mean, what we do. And most people don't know this 70% of all missionaries are women. And it's just so we just have to understand. And so would we would we tell a woman, no, you shouldn't go to China, a lot of moon, because you have the wrong genitalia. And why are there why are there more? Just think about this. Why are there more Christians in China today? Then there are in America. People don't realize that. Women women went women pastored women shepherded women were elders women were teachers and they went. And there's more Christians in China today than there are in America. And people don't realize that. And it's because God used women and you ordained them because what's more important are gender or the gospel. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all four gospels, they don't agree on all the details. They all agree it is women who proclaim the first gospel. It is is I mean, you can throw the Bible at me all day long. It's what it is. And why did Jesus tell the women to because that's who was there? That's who showed up. That's who showed up. So when we have women that are showing up and stepping up, you know, it's like years ago. I don't my God says, but I'm not going to say that. Luke at Asian Christian fellowship at UCR. And I met the president. He's a white dude. And I was like, I'm confused. And I asked all my Asian friends, I'm like, why is the white dude president? They're like, he's the only one that ran. And they're like, we had to have a president. Okay. He's a white dude with red hair. And he was the president of American Christian, excuse me, Asian American Christian fellowship. But you see, I was like, okay. You know, and so, you know, and they just they rolled with it. I was like, all right. You know, should we raise and teach our men to be pastors? Absolutely. But what do we do if the strongest communicator and leader happens to be a anointed woman? You pick the worst dude. That's smart. We're going to go with Ted over here. He can't read, can't write, can't speak, but he has the right to tell you he's a guy. Or we could listen to a message and be inspired and be challenged. And it's it's a difficult thing. It's a difficult thing for strong women to honor the word of God and to utilize their giftedness. It's a challenge. But I mean, it's a challenge. What I do, man, I mean, I can win every single argument with my wife ever. I'm a better litigator. I'm a, I could destroy her. And I could have a crappy marriage. I have to figure out how to lead. Well, it's a challenge for me. So, so I just want to say it's a challenge for women. It's a challenge for all of us. Yeah. Yeah. Great questions. Yeah. And so you alluded. I want to just get your like final take as you've alluded a lot to this. She heard series starting soon. Can you talk a little bit about that? And basically what you're trying to accomplish what you want to teach us through that series? Well, I think there's there's two things. You know, so the first thing is is that gender is binary. And that is Christians. We just, I mean, that we go back to Steve's question. That's where biology and the Bible agree. There's no biologist that thinks the gender is fluid. Like, when you're born, the doctor's not doing the best to hear she can. Like, you know, they're not like, we're going to mark this down. But who knows they know, you know, they know with, you know, the exceptions of from an after I asked you know. So, you know, gender is binary. And, and God has used women. And so I'm going to use stories that I think are going to blow people's mind. And so, and like your husband had a great question. I think we then need to do a series at some point called he him. What does it mean to be a man of God? And so because I, you know, there's a, there's a male crisis. And so, you know, we need to affirm women and their beauty. And we need to affirm men and and they're beauty. I mean, you can say, I mean, I see that the boys all the time. Like, you know, like your son is always so beautiful. You know, you don't, you don't want to say that to these guys because it'd be weird. Oh, Michael's beautiful. And, you know, but, but both men and women are beautiful in the eyes of God. And so we want to affirm that. So great question. Yeah. All right. We got one more. Okay. All right. So Bailey wrote in and said in your latest podcast episode, the book of Revelation is talked about. We're going all the way from Genesis Revelation here today. At the end of the discussion, you joked about being too scared to do a sermon series on it. It seems like social media is overflowing with scary clickbait videos on the end times. And I'm tired of being caught up in the fear and urgency of these claims. Are there any words of wisdom you could pass on to people like me on the subject of the end times? Are the other sermons or books you would recommend for those of us who would like guidance in this area? Yeah. So everybody who's ever taught on the end times has been wrong. Okay. In the entire history of Christianity, not one pastor has been correct. Okay. So what are the chances? So what are the chances that you're going to nail it? That you're going to nail the person you're listening to right now in social media? What are the chances that they're correct? Yeah. Nobody knows. And let me just say this, man, for all these Christians who are, you know, we made a joke the other day. I love Babylon B. Man, it literally there's two things I want in the morning before I read my Bible coffee in Babylon B. And the Babylon B's made fun of me, by the way. So yeah, it's fine. When I had Mark Driscoll in podcast, yeah, they made, they made fun of us, which is fine. You know, if you can't laugh at yourself, you don't know yourself. So what was I saying? You said you love the Babylon B. We're going to talk clickbait on the end times. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it just had a picture of persecuted Christians in Asia, praying for Americans, because we can't go to Disneyland. And it was just like, it was hilarious. And so here's the thing for, let me just, let me just, let me just put this out there for everybody who feels like this is the end times and you had to get the vaccine shot. And that's the mark of the beast. What do we say? Was it 15 years ago? I don't remember. What do we say to those 21 men on the beach of Alexandria, who would be headed by ISIS, because they were Christians. So to talk to me about what you're facing right now. Like just, I mean, help help me understand how what you're facing right now is as bad as those dudes who all 21 of them got their heads cut off because they wouldn't renounce Christ. That was like, was it 10 years ago? They're on the beach in orange suits. They cut their heads off. They were Coptic Christians. Coptic Christians have been persecuted for 2000 years. 2000 years. 2015, so get over yourself and your little latte violations and just understand the church has been hunted by the beast in revelation. And that beast is not some future president. It was a real beast that was hunting a real church in Rome, who were being burned. Heads were cut off. Their children were being sold into slavery. Their lives were ruined because of their faith in Christ. The book of Revelation didn't just not mean anything until today. It meant something to the church in Rome and they were being hunted by Nero. And 666 may have a number today. And by the way, you might take on it. It's probably AI. It's probably chat GBT. That's probably it ain't Trump and it's not Biden. It's probably some. Here's what I think. I mean, I think that there's God created us in his own image. And we send I think we're going to create AI and it's going to kill us. That's what I think. I think when we try to mimic what God does, it's what destroys us. God gives us sex to create life. We do it our way and it brings death. God creates us. We create artificial intelligence. If 666 means anything in the actual number of 666, that's the actual number in the Greek. If it means anything today, it's some kind of computer code. And it's probably some kind of convergence of artificial intelligence and human life. It's not your social security number. I mean, but I can probably wrong just like everybody else. But that's what I think. But all these guys, here's what they're doing. They're scaring you to build their church and build a following. They don't know. Yeah, it's clickbait. I listened to a pastor say this. And this is a famous pastor. And I actually like a lot of things that this guy does. He said 100% Israel is at war right now. He said that last week, 100% Israel is not at war right now. 100% they are not at war right now. Like you will know when they're at war, everyone will know you're not going to be you're not going to need to put the pieces together. You know, and so we just we just got to understand and and and some of these things, you know, well, how do we know when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the temple? I don't know how to be any clearer than that. You know, when someone who makes them out out to be God is standing in the temple. Okay, but I feel like it's pretty good clue. Like I'm well, I don't know. So so most of these guys are trying to scare you. So so are we in the end times? Yes. And we have been since Jesus left. The end times started when Jesus ascended heaven. We're in the end game now. Yeah. This is the end game. And and so why hasn't Jesus returned? Because one of you knuckleheads needs to give your life to Christ and when the full number of the elect have been saved, he'll return. Specifically, by the way, the full number of the elector of every tribe, every tongue, every nation, Zechariah says that there will be at least 10 people represented from every ethnicity. Why 10? That's the number to create a synagogue. There will be at least 10 men from every tribe, every tongue, every nation who give their life to Christ. Jesus Christ came to save all nations, all peoples, not just Americans who had a good run when everybody thought the way that we thought was the way. That's not what they think anymore. And we have got to figure out how to engage with culture. We have to make a better argument. We have to win. That's what the church had to do for hundreds of years. So we went from being hunted to converting the Roman Empire, not because we won elections, but because we won hearts. We changed lives. And you know, we're not going to change America by making a stand on abortion, adopt, help out single moms, do whatever you can to help women choose life. That's how you change the world. That's how you change the world. There's not one passage in the New Testament that speaks about abortion. But do you know that abortion was extraordinarily common in Rome? Especially if you were a little girl. So you have a little girl, right? I do. So if Tyler was a Roman, he probably would have had you take your daughter and set her at the steps of a local temple to die in the steps. And you know who scooped her up? Christians. And they didn't care what color she was. They didn't care what ethnicity she was. And then all of a sudden in 30 to 40 to 50 years, we have this church that's every tribe, every tongue, every nation. Because Christians didn't protest abortion. They scooped up unwanted babies. And they said, well, raise them. Well, raise them. And that's how the church became so diverse, so incredibly diverse. And it changed. And again, I'm not saying abortions right. I'm just saying, you don't change anybody by shouting that. You change that by actually coming along women who find themselves in a difficult situation. And you say, we're going to love you and we're going to be here. And let me just say this change really changing someone's life is hard. I just I just finished my next book. It's called Everyday AmeriCorps. And one of my chapters is on healing the broken heart. And I have this friend in my life. And she's been my friend since we had this ministry called JC's girls. And if you want a good laugh, go back and watch that. You know, but we didn't change many prostitutes. We didn't save many porn stars. Because it's really hard to change people. But this gal came out of prostitution and she was changed. And here's what I learned in that ministry. You can't just save women from that by proclaiming the truth. You save women from that by moving them into your home. Yeah. And my friend, she was moved into a home in our church, a husband and a wife. I want you to imagine Tyler telling you we're moving a prostitute into our home. And it took 10 years, 10 years. And she hugged me for the first time at her 40th birthday. And you said, what's the big deal? To be touched. Yeah. Mail touch. Dangerous. Even from her pastor. And she hugged me for the first time. And that's in the as it's in my book on on how to heal a broken heart. It took years, years and years. And she's still not healed. She's healing. And so here's the thing guys is we don't change people by screaming at people. We change them by inviting them in our homes and say, I'm going to love you. And I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to go through this life with you. I mean, it's why I love you so much stuff. I mean, we've been together. I don't know how long. Yeah. So you were you were a kid when I met you college kid. You know, not that you're old now. I'm not saying that. But you know, I mean, I've I've prayed with you. You know, I prayed with you with tears. You know, when you were like, I don't want to be single. I prayed with you with tears when you come here. You know, I've prayed with you with tears. You know, you know, when you had kids. I called you on Christmas Eve. Do you remember this? I do. Because your mom died. You know, and it was Christmas Eve. Yeah. But you're my friend. And I love you. And you guys can't tell but she's crying. Sorry. I didn't tell you I was going to say that. But why did I call you on Christmas Eve? Because your family. Yeah. And I and I did not take a lot of calls that day. I'm sorry. No, but I want to talk to you. Yeah. No, I know. I know. I know. You lived with me. You know, and people don't realize that's Christianity. Christianity is, you know, Stephanie, you're my sister in Christ. And I love you. And and I'm there. I'm there for you. And we've had you and I've had some hard talks. You've you've challenged me. You've said, man, I don't think you should go with that. You know, and we've been blessed by each other. And it's not perfect. And it's messy. And it's not easy. But the Christian life transformation does not happen from an alter call. It happens from relationship. Yeah. And he said, well, Pastor, man, you should give an alter call. Okay, Jesus didn't God didn't send an alter call. He sent his son. Relationships change. People. Yeah. And and that's how we change people. And and so sorry, I made you cry, but that's that's that's life. That's yeah. You know, that that's how we do this. And so, um, and I was a on that same tone to even back to, you know, Bailey's question, what she where she's getting nervous is what she's seeing on social media. Yeah. And social media will show you the things that it knows you want to look at. And so for you, your social media is full of videos about the end times, because you've seen those before you looked at them. So it's telling you, this is everything is out there. Mine is not. Yeah. There's more out there. And just be aware of the way that social media is built to show you the things that it wants you to see. And it makes you think that's all that's out there. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm going to get into relationship with people who see differently. Look at the Bible for yourself. Get out of it. I think it's because I do this all time. I will spend time on TikTok and I need to get off of here. Yeah. Because this is it's telling me things that I think it thinks I want to hear. And use all of a sudden spend a couple hours on there and you're getting real weird about what you believe and what you think. And it makes you think that's what everyone thinks. Absolutely. And here's the problem of social media. And I don't know what the right answer is because, you know, I'm a libertarian at heart. And so I may not agree with what you do, but I want to live in a country where I get to be who I want to be and you get to be who you want to be as long as that doesn't negatively affect either of us. I'm not a big fan of morally making people live like me. And I don't want you to make me live like you. That's the beauty of America. Those white dudes with wigs, they got a few things right. And that was one of them. And so we need to stand up for that. But but the problem is, you know, these algorithms, they know that two two things really affect you. So in range, it leads to engagement. So if it can make you mad, that's what the computer program knows. And the other things that can make you afraid. And so and then there's sex. So so in range meant fear and then horniness, right. So those are the things that that it knows that it can it can lure you in. And and so they're advertising dollars are based upon eyes watching. Yeah. And so so they don't care. They don't care about your mental health. They want you to stare at that thing all day long. And, you know, and so this and so this is a big problem. This is the problem with free. Everybody wants everything for free. So these companies have to make money. And so when we used to pay for television and and there used to be advertisers, right. There were limitations on what you could show because they realize when they got to far now when it's so specific. And it's just you in the privacy of your own home. And let it go. And so now you think everybody. You know, I'm seeing is this must be the end time. And so, you know, and it's like, oh my gosh, what the other you're afraid is reverse trying is they're irrigating it. You know, both the book of Revelation says it's like, oh my gosh, they're irrigating it. You know, and nothing on my social media has told me about the experience. Yeah. So so so you know, Bailey, are we in the end times? Yeah, we have been for 2000 years. Could Jesus return tomorrow? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But none of these guys, gals, they're never right. They're never right. And nobody goes back and apologizes to all the poor seven day events that sold everything and sat on their roofs, waiting. I think it was in the 1920s for Jesus's imminent return. That's awkward. You sold everything you had. And you were sitting on the roof. Because Jesus can't lift you up out of your floor. You got a pull people out of the grave. Yeah, you know, Jesus is, you know, he could come out of the dead, but he can't lift me off the ground. I got to help him. And there's multiple movements like this, you know, out of the school field Bible in this. Oh my gosh. And so when you when you read the scriptures through the school field lens. Guess what you see? That's all wow. There it is again. We are all looking for evidence to support what we already believe. That's what social media does. Is it it? It's you know, so this one thing happens. So this is what we're doing. And so, you know, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say this must be true. And this is why, you know, there's there's, you know, people think we're more racist when we're not, it's way less racist. But, because social media is affirming these things, oh, this must be happening everywhere, you know, some Christian was Persecuted that this is happening everywhere and it's like, look, you know, it's, it's just generating whatever is going to get you to stay on and we need to know that. So, so Bailey, I'm sorry. You know, and I did teach on Revelation, what a year and a half ago, there were so many of us. I mean, I'm not sure. I know, we're like, you know, you know, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say Lukman. I'm going to say, you know, I'm going to say, you know, this is just 20. This is's going to be extremely, you know, and there's my old Bible in my university gave me a small shout out for this explain saying non ти as a grandmother, and baby decorations, this is God. Our lit�� this Bible of Acts is kind of like the shape of history of those Christians. And he's going to nickname arique sporgeria and talk about Judaism, his teaching on narrative and religion, there he is, go down. And when he's, go, yeah, he's in 2020, and then, go look like him. He's in 2021, he's in on his way, comeelujah. He's taught the Holy wein just a little oral subtitle. He's teaching a little oral slang to talk about!. But I'm not異 golea doesn't have an awesome army, but they did it one time and they were convinced that too that was. And so, you know, these things change based upon, you know, whatever the current enemy is. And so, yeah. But Jesus is coming. Bailey. Well, thanks so much for answering all those questions, fast and mad. If you guys have questions that you want on the show, especially as we dig into this she, her series, it starts this weekend. We'd love to get this on the show. So please send those in. Pass the mat would love to answer them. And we'll catch you next time. Thank you.