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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
6 Seasons of a Man’s Life: Part 2
00:00
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast by Restoration Project. My name's Jesse French. I'm one of the hosts and excited to be joined by my good friend who is Hey, Chris Bruno here. Good to be with you, Jesse. Hi, Chris. Good to be with you too. I was thinking recently around a time in my life when I had just started college and had moved into my first house that I was renting with a couple of the guys. And there was this awareness that
00:28
Wow, like I have some literal bills to pay. Like I have rent, I have groceries that I need to acquire somehow. And we're kind of laughing, but I still remember sitting in my room and realizing I have nothing in my bank account and I need to buy some groceries. Somehow this equation needs to meet some adjustment. And I'll be clear, like my folks were incredibly generous. It was not a like,
00:56
don't let the door hit you on your way out type of thing. Like they helped the school and whatnot, but there was this new reality of, hey, I need to take some financial responsibility. And so like lots of people this age decided, hey, let's go find a job. And my roommate at the time had a job at the university and the school that we were going to is an agricultural school and they have a big equine unit, a big.
01:24
part of the university where horses are a part of study and whatnot. And so there's this equine facility and he had a job that was part of the feed crew, which meant feeding horses and cleaning their stalls. And he said, Hey, I can ask my boss. We might be looking to hire someone. And I was like, man, that'd be great. So he did me a huge favor, got me an interview, interview, very loose term. I think I met my boss, you know, like outside of the barn and you know, she said,
01:51
You know, when can you start like, can you work 15 hours a week? Like it was the most, you know, cut and dry nuts and bolts thing ever. So I started working. So I'm 19 at this point and my, my roommate, one of my best friends is also working there, which is both a great thing. And now as I look back, I'm sure our boss was like, Oh my gosh, this is a setup. Like these guys are kind of a hot mess. And so I just remember the vivid image where we would.
02:18
we would move hay bales and after haul hay bales to different parts of the unit to feed horses. And so we had one of those John Deere Gator kind of essentially, right? Like souped up golf cart type of thing that had a small little pickup bed that you could load stuff onto. And really by all accounts that should have held five to six hay bales, like if you stacked it and us being the 19 and 20 year olds that we were one afternoon, we were bored.
02:46
were like, well, instead of making six trips back and forth, let's just be really efficient and see how many bales we can stack on the Gator. And Chris, we. This is like, of course, why would you, why would you not want to know how many hay bales the Gator can carry? Absolutely. Fantastic. It felt like not only a needed question, but we were just trying to improve efficiency. So that was our sole motive. I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, we spend.
03:15
way too much time building the Jenga tower of hay bales. We even so we we stacked it so high. And then my buddy said, well, we can fit two hay bales on the hood of the Gator. If while I drive, you hold both of those hay bales. And I was like, great, that's that's two more. So I think no joke, we had like 19 hay bales. I said, oh, my gosh. OK. And then like a bunch of morons that we were.
03:44
We had to drive the Gator to the barn, which of course you had to drive real, real briefly on this public road. And as we are on the public road, the like main director of the Ecoin facility drives now and just gives us the stare like what is happening, what is happening, like the you know, everything is falling apart. And so he I was occasionally I will still see him, actually that guy. And he still brings it up. He's like, do you remember when you and your roommate
04:13
It was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, it was like, it was a huge thing. And so, you know, incredibly funny now, fairly dumb. But I do think it is this funny story that really is sort of, did you make it? Did they topple off? No, no, we got it there. We got it there. Our actual boss, I don't think saw. And so that was probably fortunate. But we saved, you know, we saved some trips.
04:42
So mission accomplished. You probably saved some trips, but not time. I was about to say that we saved time. I'm like, oh wait, no, we didn't. There's no chance. Right. So much time on that. Such a disaster. Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, when you're 19 years old, you got to test all the limits. You got to like see how much you can do in, and push as much as you possibly can. Bingo. That was totally it. And then we came home and told my brother, right? And it just was, it was the tale. Like it continues to get told. I'm going to see.
05:11
this friend actually this weekend and I probably that will come up. Okay. It'd be great. No, it will because you talked about it. It's true. Yeah. Well, I wanted to bring that up because we are in the middle of a brief series talking about some of the different stages that all men go through in their life and the previous episode talked about the innocent boy and the phallic man and the next stage that you lay out in.
05:39
Sage, a man's guide into second passage, is called the zealous warrior. And it feels as I was thinking about that category, I'm like, yeah, that when I was 19 and pushing the limits in that job, feeling some of the need to like be financially responsible, responsible, yet still push the envelope, like was totally in that that phase of life. Yes, yes, yes, you were. Yes. So Chris, take us into.
06:08
Like joking aside or joking included. Yeah. This next stage of the zealous warrior, who is he? What is he navigating? What is he feeling the need to, uh, to show like, describe that stage for us. Well, I think you hit it really well, Jesse, that there's a combination of two things that are happening for the zealous warrior. Right? First is that there is a level of ownership and responsibility that he starts to have for himself.
06:38
He's no longer very small, right? Very tiny. No, yeah, just that he's got to have some like, I'm out on my own. There is some responsibility I'm taking for myself and whether that's in a job, even if he's not moved out of the house, most of the time it is after he's moved out of the house, but there is some level of responsibility that he's taking, you know, like I've got a man up here. I gotta go do this. I've got to whatever. And then,
07:06
As he's taking responsibility for himself, he's bringing his strength, his power, his like, I call it the zealous warrior because now he's starting to fight some battle. Whereas in the previous two stages, the innocent boy and the phallic man, there's no battle to fight really. It's just kind of like, ah, who am I? What is happening? And now all of a sudden you move into this young man stage and you got to take responsibility. You got to find some battle to fight. And it doesn't need to be like,
07:35
going off to war, even though that is a possibility that, you know, some people could be going off to actual war, you know, signing up in the military or something. But there is something that is like, this is what I am facing is bigger than me, and I'm going to conquer it. I'm going to end in that moment in the barn. That was the that was the John Deere Gator. And you know, how many? Can we stack here?
08:00
but it could be career, it could be education, it could be ministry work and missionary work. Like I'm gonna go kind of fight this battle on behalf of the kingdom and dig these wells or share this faith or whatever it is, I'm gonna go do something that has a significant impact. So I don't want it to sound like I'm just talking about like pulling out a gun or a sword and that's what the fighting the battle is for a warrior, but he's bringing his grit to bear.
08:28
against the world. There is something that he is looking to conquer. And so that's important, right? We all do that. We need to do that. There's something about that. Yeah, say more about that, right? So like, why is that needed? I mean, yes, there is a, you know, in my example, there's a financial reality. In that example, there is some practical pieces, but even deeper than that, why is it needed for us as men to bring our grit to bear, as you just said? Like, why is that a really, really important needed thing?
08:58
Oh my gosh, I could say a lot about that. I'll just say this. We were designed to work. We were designed to partner with God, to work the earth, to subdue the earth, to rule over things. And whether those things are a field that I'm plowing, or whether those things are a spreadsheet that I'm organizing and working on, like I am designed to bring myself to bear in the world.
09:27
And that is a partnership with God. It's a beautiful partnership. And we look at, you know, guys that are listless or slothful or don't have purpose and all that. And there's so much, like the apathy there is just eroding the soul because they don't have something to bring their grit to. They don't have something to conquer. They don't have something to push into. I had coffee yesterday morning with a good friend of mine and he's got,
09:56
a 20 year old son and that son now is in college and is going back to college and all that kind of stuff and whatever. But he's also like spent some time doing some Bible training and has gone to like a gap year and those kinds of things and to learn about God and working on teams and ministry and all those kinds of things. And my friend was saying like, he is very black and white Christian. Like it is.
10:25
There is like, there is a right, there is a wrong, and he's gonna go and he's gonna like, he's gonna tell me. And my friend who's, you know, a 50 year old adult is saying like, and it kind of gets on my nerves a little bit, but I also remember myself as a 20 year old. I also remember how principled I was or how intense I was or whatever, because there was that kind of fire inside of me that needed to go do that. For me personally, it was the same thing, right?
10:54
As soon as I graduated college, it was like, I am, my wife and I were like, we're going to go and we're going to bring Jesus to the hardest places on earth. And we're going to go kind of conquer the world for the kingdom basically. And, and I was pretty black and white myself then too. So yeah, that there is something about the partnering with God back to what I was saying that we were designed to work. And this is the first time in a man's life.
11:21
You might have had a job when you were in high school, but this is the first time where you're actually bringing yourself, like I said, to bear. You're bringing your grit to something, to form it, to shape it, to make it into something new, into something else, into something better. That might just be, like I said, your career you're trying to build. It might be some kind of ministry, but it's to shape and form is what we were saying. Yeah.
11:48
So one of the pieces that we talked about in the last episode was this question that's really hard to answer and eight miles deep, but I think it's a good one is the question of like, what does that man need? That man who is in that stage, what does he need and asking this both from an awareness? Sure. Right. Of like the men that are in those stage, but also the awareness of again, as we reflect back into our own story of what we received and
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even what we can offer now back to that piece of us, like the zealous warrior, what? What does he need? Well, to put it just very simply, I'll say he needs to know that he matters. He needs to know that he matters in the world, he matters to a team, he matters to a place that his impact around him actually matters.
12:47
I think, you know, a little, you know, a little guilty pleasure that I have is that, you know, I watch these shows on Netflix or whatever that are all about Vikings or ancient Celtic warriors or whatever, you know, like, I think a lot of guys are like me in that. And, um, and what catches me every time is that even if I die, I need to know my death mattered for something.
13:16
for a cause for something bigger than myself, that I'm important enough to make a difference in the world. And we think about actual literal warriors, whether they're current modern day warriors or back in the day when it was swords and spears, there is something about most of those men that are in that battle kind of zone are somewhere in their 20s and 30s. Yeah.
13:46
They are the most, and again, just to use that warrior archetype, he is the strongest, he is the most muscled, he has the most endurance, he has the most power in what he can bring, and that is what he brings to bear. And so he needs to be on the battlefield. And when he's on the battlefield, he needs to make sure that what he's fighting for is important and it actually matters.
14:13
Yeah. And I think we'll talk about this in the future, but what ends up happening is that when the battle itself, when he comes to realize that he mattered for a season, but now doesn't matter as much, or maybe the battle that he thought mattered is not actually the battle that matters. That's where we start to kind of trip and falter into the next levels of the next seasons of second half of life and did what I saw that matter. Was that important?
14:43
those kinds of things. But for right now, we're talking about the warrior and he needs to he needs to fight. He needs to do something. And again, not just fight with his muscles and sword and spears, but he needs to bring his influence to something to shape something to build something, whether it's a business or a country, you know, like,
15:12
It's just littered, right? Of that desire to prove, of that desire to bring who I am to bear in all the ways, right? In all the misguided and all of the wonderfully guided ways, like just super true. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just in light of kind of where we are, I will say the next season is one that doesn't often get talked about. I think we assume.
15:39
that the warrior season moves directly into the king season, but it doesn't, it doesn't. And this is the, and nobody wants to talk about this because it's kind of like, wah, wah, this is here we're like this powerful warrior. And of course I want to be a king and we just want to skip over this space in the middle. But the next season that I name in Sage is the wounded man season.
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And this is where that warrior gets wounded on the battlefield.
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Right? And something happens where his power is not enough to overcome or win the battle. And he gets wounded and, you know, archetypal kind of stuff. He gets hit by an arrow or slashed by a sword or something. But it's all the other things, too. It's like he gets betrayed. He gets there's relational discord. Maybe he and his wife are having a hard time and they're struggling or.
16:41
or a parent passes away or there, you know, a real important parent passes away or something, just a sickness comes or there's a significant loss that all of the energy that he thought that he had to overcome now gets, he just gets his legs wiped out from under him and he finds himself instead of standing on the battlefield with a sword in hand, he's like face down in the mud.
17:07
like what just happened? I was just on the top of my game and all of a sudden, I'm out. Yeah. Taken out. Like this is not how I thought the story was supposed to be written. The ending does not look like this. Right? No. The ending looks like I win. Yes. Yes. And actually, actually the opposite is happening. Right. Yeah. It's super confusing. Super confusing. Yeah. So I have several questions around this, this phase, but.
17:35
I think the first one is as disorienting, disillusioning, confusing, like you just said as that is, why is this actually necessary? Like why, and you just said, we wanna skip over this, we wanna get to the triumphant victory, like crowning of the king piece. What happens when this stage is not engaged, when it's discarded? Why is this actually a critical piece that you said in the previous episode that we have to be willing to receive and even be content in the midst of, which sounds like...
18:03
dumbest thing and the last thing we want. Why would I be content when my face is in the mud? Yeah, this is awful. I'm bleeding out. Yeah. You know, your question earlier about what does the warrior need? And I said the warrior needs to know that he matters. As we get into the wounded man, this season is so important because he also needs to know that he's not God. That however
18:33
you know, like however much he has accrued and conquered and all that kind of stuff, there is an insistence on God's part that God remains God. And it's not to like just swipe people down and make sure that they're humble. I'm going to prove to you that you're humble. It is actually a movement out of love for us. Because if we start to move into God, into the place of God, or have some sense that we are all that, then it's actually harmful to us.
19:02
Yeah. And it's harmful to the people around us. So this is like a safety net for us to go like, whoa, buddy, you are, you do matter. And when the King stage comes along, let's make sure that the appropriate one is crowned King. And that there is a bigger kingdom that we are fighting for. There is something more than what you're, you know, just the story that you're currently fighting for.
19:32
bigger story that you're actually on behalf of. Yeah. Cause I think all of us have that prideful tendency to move into like, I got this, I'm, you know, I know how to do this and whatever. And I think God's generosity and love towards us is like, I want more for you than the small kingdom that you're building for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me think of, I think it was a couple of years ago, there was an interview I saw with a super, super
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successful professional athlete who had like accomplished all that there was to accomplish in the sporting world. And he had, I think his kids were like two and three and the reporter was like, Hey, what, you know, what do you hope for your kids as they get older? And he just responded really quickly, like, I want them to have a never ending work ethic. And on one level, I was like, yes.
20:29
I get it, right? You want even some of the zealous warriors space, right? Of like, yes, to bring your strength and to apply that needed. But the athlete was at a time where he was like at the end of his career. And it just rang so hollow to me of like, yeah, that, like it makes me wonder, did you go through the wounded man space at all? Because that answer is one of try harder, be more zealous, you know, stay a warrior your whole life. And his words were just like,
20:59
not to put too much into them. They're like, man, I have, you have no credibility with me anymore. Like if it is, if your only lens through the world is one of like work harder and you actually haven't walked through the wounding of your own life and the disillusionment of that, you're actually not fit to be a credible king. Right? Yeah. That's not who I want. I want to follow. Yeah. No, it's so true. Like I think as we get older,
21:26
It is less about the power that we bring and more about the person that we bring. And I think that's the lesson of the wounded man, that in the warrior stage, it is about the power that you bring. That matters, right? Your power matters. Your power matters and you matter. And as we get older, we recognize that our power is only a portion of who we were designed to be.
21:52
It is not the fullness of who we were designed to be. And if I'm only living in the warrior stage the rest of my life, then I'm not actually growing into the fullness of the man in all the other things that God designed for me. And what you just named was a king needs to have the sense that he does have power. He knows how to use a sword and he doesn't have to. A warrior always uses his sword. A king chooses to use his sword when it's needed.
22:22
And that's a big difference and that can only happen when he's been cut down. That's only that can only happen when he has tasted the mud for a little bit to recognize like, Oh, this is what it's like. This is what abandonment feels like. This is what betrayal feels like. This is what weakness feels like. This is what vulnerability, this is what it feels like to need. This is what it feels like to have to not have all the things that I have had. Right. And just kind of like, Oh, here I am.
22:51
Yeah. Yeah. And it's important to Jesse because to look back and go like, okay, what are the seasons? And this is the one that I feel like the unfortunate reality is that it visits us more than just once. It's not just like, you know, I went through puberty once. Thank God. Okay. You don't want to run that back. Don't want to run that back. No, one and done. But the warrior, the wounded, like all of that, there will come times when I need to fight another battle and there will come times.
23:21
Also, when the cycle will happen again, and I will come back to like, oh, I am not all that. I am wounded, I am lost, I am needy. This lesson continues to come. So sometimes it is a significant season that happens. Sometimes it's a cyclical season that happens. And that doesn't mean that you haven't finished. It just means that God is continuing to be generous and invite you into more. So. Again, that is.
23:50
I wish it were different and I know you're true, right? That is how it goes. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just ask, kind of as we wrap up and so much could be said around this, but I feel like this stage of the wounded man, we could have a whole episode on it, but why is brotherhood and deep relationship with other men, why is that critical in this space? Well, it sucks to be in the infirmary alone. Right? Yes. Yes. And...
24:19
is also like we need to borrow hope from our brothers that when I get knocked down, that I can know his story and I can know his story of last year when he got knocked down. And now 12 months later, I see what has happened in his life. I see God's faithfulness. I see the repair. I see all of that. I now need to borrow hope from his story for mine. And, you know,
24:48
two months from now, my other brother is gonna need to borrow from me. And so this sense of like this collective unification of the story of like, we are all walking through our battles and our victories and our failures together gives us all like this permission to be like, Oh, I'm still learning. I'm still trying to figure this out. And you and I have talked about this too. Like I've never done this before. Right.
25:18
I've never, this is the first time, right? I remember with the kids, like, this is the first time I've had a 16 year old son. I don't actually know what to do with you right now. Yes, yes. This is the first time I've paid for college. I don't know how to make this work. This is the first time I've gotten fired. This is the first time I've gotten hired. This is the first time I've moved to a new state. This is the first time I've taken this kind of role. Like,
25:46
This is the first time and so we need in the Brotherhood, in all seasons of our lives, but I think especially in the Wounded Man season, to just remember and have like, oh, other people have walked through seasons similar to this. It's not about learning, get advice from them on how to, but I can get hope from them on moving through this because my story is my story and your story is your story. But I can look at you and go like, I know some of the Wounded Man seasons that you've walked through and so.
26:15
I can take some courage. Yeah. Chris, thanks. Thank you for the conversation today and continued exploration of these parts of our life. And we've got, got one more episode coming up. We'll get the final two and yeah. Thanks for your thoughts. Thanks for the conversation. Okay. Talk soon.