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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: Have you ever been in a restaurant and wondered what sort of teamwork is required in a kitchen to get all those dishes out at the same time? Or perhaps you've seen a celebrity chef yelling at people and wondered, is that really the right way to do things? Well, this is the show for you. In this episode of We Not Me, we're joined by Simon Zatyrka, former executive chef and now founder of the Culinary Mechanic, where he coaches chefs on leadership and building positive culture in the kitchen.
[00:00:26] Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:36] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond, how are you?
[00:00:39] Dan: I'm well, thank you. Very well. I'm in sunny Italy. Consciously trying not to make a link between lovely Italian food and today's episode. But um, yeah, we're doing well. We've had some beautiful weather, so a little bit of escape from the uk. But, uh, yes, doing very well. Thank you. And I think we've had an exciting week, haven't we, between us? But I'm really looking forward to this episode.
[00:00:57] I have to say, Pia, since we started We Not Me, I have wanted to do this episode, not, um, I discovered Simon recently, but I've wanted us to talk about teams in the kitchen because, you know, they're notoriously well, the op loud and the, well, it's a crazy environment. I'm fascinated by that. But what we, what we see of teams in kitchens is almost the opposite of the accepted norms for leadership today, which is, you know, you know, the sort of classic shouty, the sort of, um, messianic, sort of of God of a chef. Yes, chef. Yeah. The, even the language is sort of, you know, a little bit like the operating room where that surgeon is the one to look to, and everyone else is just lots of hands and just really good at chopping vegetables and keeping the, not making eye contact with the, the devil that's strolling around.
[00:01:49] And at the same time, I, I, a few years ago saw Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, who is a lovely name, but he's a British chef and he, he's the opposite. He's very involving and he has a lovely sort of innovative team. And I thought, hold on a second, that it's interesting. There are two ways to do this. So getting stuck into kitchen teams I think could be, I felt, would be really interesting.
[00:02:10] Pia: So who is our guest today then?
[00:02:12] Dan: So our guest today is um, is actually someone who really knows this stuff about this subject of kitchen. So, um, he is, um, Simon's Zatyrka and, uh, he's ba calling him from Seattle. As you'll hear, he has immense history as a professional chef and in kitchens, um, around the US, and he now helps. Kitchen teams to, as he will mention along the way, to be a bit more, we, a little bit less Me.
[00:02:42] Pia: Welcome to the show, Simon.
[00:02:47] Simon: Well, thank you very much. Happy to be here.
[00:02:49] Pia: Oh, delighted. And we are looking forward to a rich, spicy, and delicious conversation about, uh, bringing together culinary expertise and teamwork. And yes, that is, that is possible. First, though, you can't, it's like Monopoly, you cannot pass go until you have received a card. So here he is. And here is the card shuffle. I'm handing you over to Mr. Hammond.
[00:03:17] Dan: Oh, here we go. One small thing that makes my day better is
[00:03:22] Simon: I now work from home after 30 plus years in the industry, uh, of restaurants. So now I wake up in the morning and I get my wife coffee every day,
[00:03:33] Pia: and so here, I'm, I'm an Aussie and we like our coffee. How does she like her? Coffee?
[00:03:39] Simon: Black. You can't let anything get in the way of coffee.
[00:03:44] Pia: Just black. Just straight black, nothing.
[00:03:46] Simon: no sugar, no nothing. We drink, we drink coffee. The, in general, the, the, the spoon. The spoon stands up for the most
[00:03:55] Dan: Oh, okay. Serious bit of work. Serious bit of work. That, that, that always makes me think of my, uh, Father-in-Law told me the story of when he was, he worked with a company and they, they bought. He was with a big multinational and they bought a chemicals company. And this guy had taken his wife a cup of tea in bed every morning for their whole married life. And uh, the, the morning after they sold out for multimillions, he said that for the first time he used two tea bags. He splashed out. So I love that. I love that. That's what I do when I'm a millionaire. I use two teabags, the wine, but same, not a little bit less, bit less strong than what you are serving up to your wife, I think there, Simon.
[00:04:34] Pia: I was gonna ask you, Simon, do you, uh, have you have, have you tasted bulletproof coffee?
[00:04:39] Simon: Oh, it's, is that the, is that the stuff with the butter
[00:04:41] Pia: So, so you, you, you, you make your coffee as an espresso and then you put it into a Therma mix and then you put butter and collagen into it. Whiz it up
[00:04:52] Simon: I have not experienced that.
[00:04:55] Pia: Well, there you go. So that, that is my regular start to my day and, and that, and you only need one because it is a bit of the, the spoon standing up. But the butter, the butter's great actually. 'cause you don't have all that, that milkiness sort of, sometimes that makes you feel a bit sort of full. This is actually a different, different thing. So yeah, recommend it. Recommend it.
[00:05:17] Simon: Supposed to be good for the brain, right?
[00:05:18] Pia: Well, supposedly I'm drinking it heavily now to try
[00:05:21] Dan: Seems, seems to be working. Pia. Seems to be working. Excellent. Simon, take us back through your life. Let's, um, let's, let's wind back and bring us, bring us back up to the present day. What's a little, a quick potted bio for you?
[00:05:34] Simon: All right. Uh, we'll, we'll try and do this without, without taking up the whole show. How's that? Um. I, I was born in Massachusetts, um, and I was born to a parent who moved around a fair bit. Um, so I kind of always learned to adapt, and that I didn't know it as a child, but I, as I got older, that sort of served me well,
[00:05:59] Um, I was also the child of a parent of my, my father and he, he was a technical specialist for a university where he taught graduate students to do research. So if you needed a, if you needed a result, you went to him. And so process, process, process was what he taught me, right? Um, he's the guy that taught me to like, tear apart the lawnmower and have, and like have a process about how you keep all the pieces so you can put it back together and not have to struggle. So research and process were very drummed into me from a young age.
[00:06:34] Fast forward to my teens, I said, mom, I want, she said, no, boy, you want a job. Go. She said, there's a restaurant down the street. Get on, um, and, and find yourself a job. So I did, and I kind, I really enjoyed the community of it all. Right from the very beginning. Restaurants always provided, you know, a merry band, a pirates really, in the places I was at.
[00:06:58] And so I went, I started to go to the University of Massachusetts and realized this is just not for me. These are not my people. Um, I dropped out and found myself back in New Mexico and cooking, and I mean, now you can just kind of turn this one fast forward. I, I literally just cooked. Day and night for probably four or five years, two, sometimes three jobs. Um, moved myself to Florida, then to California. I was in Santa Barbara, then LA, um, and all the while just cooking, cooking, cooking and trying to absorb as much as I possibly could. I met my wife in Santa Barbara and then we were in LA for seven years. Found myself in some pretty amazing restaurants in LA and then in the bay area of California.
[00:07:43] And then I was working for a company and we were in somewhere around 2010, 2011, and things were tough and hard to make your hard to make things all really work financially. And so the company I was working for, I said, I need to get out of the bay because I need to find someplace that's not quite so expensive. And I said, I'm going to Seattle. And they laughed at me. I said, why are you laughing? They said, well, we, our corporate headquarters are in Seattle. So they moved me up here.
[00:08:13] About that point, I'd always focused on the food. And now I'm the executive chef of a 350 seat restaurant. And I'm going through, just as through this, 2008, 2009, 2010, like the, the recession is hitting and I'm realizing if I don't hang on to my people, if I don't make the most of what I have with the people that I have, the business that I'm in charge of, I am the guardian for is going to suffer.
[00:08:41] And so I really started to think about how I was leading and how I was, developing my people. And I. I was lucky enough after a few years, um, to really have like the lowest, um, lowest turnover, one of the lowest turnover rates in the company. Um, my, my restaurant was staying profitable because we were working with what we had. We weren't, we weren't turning people over and, and, my team became very, very tight. And so they were very focused on helping me save money so that we didn't lose money for the company, right? The whole idea is to make money.
[00:09:17] And so moved up to Seattle with that company and kept going. And really started to think about how I developed people and, you know, the, the concept of teamwork really became prevalent for me, but also, again, development, development, development. I moved cooks to lead cooks and lead cooks to sous chefs and, and then I even promoted a couple of my sous chefs up to chef. And so in the course of a couple years, I, I became this person within this company that was pro, that was, I was farming talent left and right.
[00:09:49] And then my, my vision of what, of the future, I think it changed, but theirs didn't. And so we parted ways and I floated around a little bit, and then I got in with a company, um, and they promoted me fairly quickly to a multi-unit role.. And so I went from being the chef of a restaurant here in Seattle that was doing, uh, southwestern style food, so Tex-Mex, and Mexican, um, and I went from doing one restaurant to all of a sudden I'm in charge of three. And now you wanna talk about development. Being able to understand how to bring people up became everything.
[00:10:24] And so after about nine years of that, uh, and a good dose of the, the pandemic kicking me in the shins on a regular basis, I began to feel that my desire to be running around and developing people for other people was less, I was just, I didn't have the, the will so much anymore. Oh boy. Um, and so in early 2022, I gave my company, my current company, which again, I've been there about nine years. I gave them my notice and they said, what are you gonna do? And I said, I don't know.
[00:11:00] And I sat on my back patio in my, at my house and I stared at the tops of the trees for a good two to three months. And when I sort of crawled outta my hole. I realized I've burnt out a couple times in my life from pushing so hard. And I've done a good job of developing people and I'm a good manager and I feel like I'm a good leader. I'm gonna take that. Somehow I'm gonna find a way to take that and continue to make a living and I'm gonna do it from home and I'm gonna use the, the miracle of technology that is, uh, Zoom or whatever, you know, technology I can find. And I'm gonna stay home and I'm gonna try and teach and coach and advise and consult, um, restaurants.
[00:11:48] And so right now I do, uh, um, a blend. I do a little bit of onsite consulting, but for the, I'm also working to get more clients that are virtual so that I, I have a guy in Canada that I have been talking to for the last few months, um, about how he can grow his leadership. And so there you go.
[00:12:05] Pia: It's really interesting how your career has taken these changes, and how you've really focused the, the passion you have. Yes, you have a passion for, obviously for food, but it's a passion for people that, that seems to be overriding, and that's probably kind of the juncture that you got to a, a couple of years ago, sort of like, what, what is it really that that is floating your boat?
[00:12:29] Simon: Yeah. I mean, I think it's, there's a certain mortality that one faces when you're on your feet all day and you realize you can't do it all yourself. And so success has to stop becoming, I'm an ox and I'm pulling, but instead it has to be how do I, how do I nurture and develop the people around me, and, and then lead them so that we get the results that we want that are expected, and I don't pay all the cost for it, right? Um, but, but even better than that, by pouring into people I. I get something back, right?
[00:13:04] I have, I have cooks from 2000 all the way, say 20 years, 25 years, that still get in touch with me and go, oh wow, it's great to see what you're doing, and, and they tell me what they're doing and it, it's, it's phenomenal and it truly is like, it's, it, it, these big bonds. So, um, yeah, and I'm passionate about people for sure.
[00:13:26] Dan: And Simon, can you, can you build on that just quickly and just take us, you know, take, take us into a professional kitchen. I mean, it's from, I've never worked in one. I have, I've, I've very much enjoyed the produce, the, the, the, what it produces. But what's the other side of that wall? What's through those two swinging doors? Just take us in there and try to describe it. What is happening in there and what's going on then between the people,
[00:13:55] Simon: Okay. Well, I, I think, I mean, I think it, it's necessary to understand or almost remove the, remove the product that you are accustomed to seeing as, as the end, end of the game. I think if you, if you believe that that is what the, the goal is, then it, it becomes hard to understand. But if you remove that and understand that it's, it's just a pleasant byproduct of a machine.
[00:14:25] So imagine you walk in in the morning and there are vendors delivering your produce, your meat, your, your seafood, you know, whatever it is. Your dry stores, um, your plastic cups, they're gonna deliver all of that to you. So you, you've gotta receive it. So you're forced to interact with people who are on a, on a fairly tight schedule and they're driving all throughout the city. Um, and then, there's prep cooks or there's cooks, and they are, each des design, um, designated a section of the menu, so if there's 21 items on the menu, we will just say that there's 10 over here and six over here and five over there. And you're responsible for prepping what it is you expect for the day, right? And some things are you're gonna go bigger batches and, and you're gonna have that. And, and it's, it's all about communication and it, and about, Hey, do you, do we have more of this? Yes, we have more of that. Hey, that was a little sour yesterday. Let's, let's make sure we're t we're paying attention to the recipe.
[00:15:28] And so I think there's a lot of, a lot of sort of give and take to the interaction. I think as you get into what we would call service. That moment where the diners come, um, you know, we're, we're unfortunately we're slaves to a little machine that pops up little tickets, and, and, then it's just a matter of, you know, understanding that, the medium rare filet mignon that Dan really enjoys, takes 12 minutes. Uh, the pasta that Pia loves and has every time takes about six minutes, and the salad that that Simon produces for both of you takes about three minutes. And then it just becomes, sort of orchestrating the time of, of that, right? But, uh, everything becomes, you know, there's lots of callbacks, there's lots of, lot of there, you get shorthand, right? You get different ways of speaking, um, that are, you know, the, the chef will say something and, and the, the common response is heard or in, in more European kitchens I think from my perspective, the, you would hear oui chef, um, you definitely hear Yes chef here in the States. But I think that it is all. It all has some remnants of old fashioned military structure, right? That there are, there are many foot soldiers and then there are a few more people leading the brigade, and then there's fewer people at the top than there are at the bottom.
[00:16:48] I don't know if that really helps, but I always, I always like to think of it to understand. I think that if you go into some of those harsher environments, you get things where there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of communication and motivation through fear. Um, and I think that here in the states, probably the last, I don't know, 10, 15 years, uh, things have gotten to be where that's not tolerated as much.
[00:17:13] I, I can save for my own personal career. There was a point where I realized that when I could keep my face calm and I could regulate my tone and my demeanor and think clearer because I'm not allowing the blood to rush to my head, I got better results. When I asked for, for people's assistance rather than demanding it, um, or demanding their compliance, my team moved faster. When I educated as to scenario A, scenario B and scenario C, and this is what we're gonna do in tho in each of those scenarios, which whoever may happen. The more I educated, the faster my machine moved.
[00:17:55] Pia: That's interesting. I think that's interesting, Simon, because I, I've always had a perception of sort of like a balance of power, you know, where the, the chef is the kingpin and, uh, and barking orders. And, and we've probably had insight into a few televised. shows inside kitchens, and it certainly appears like that.
[00:18:15] But what's the downside of that? If you have got a leader that could be the chef that is really, that, that, that's got a very tight hold over the team and, and creates that fear, what happens?
[00:18:26] Simon: I find that in the big picture for me, people create expiration dates on those relationships. Loyalty isn't as long and as as, as open. I think you get these situations where a cook will stick around long enough to learn what they can learn from that chef. Um, but boy, once they've gotten past that, it's like, okay, I gotta go. It creates self preserving instincts in, in people, in my opinion, um, where they, they stop thinking about the collective, they stop thinking about the we.
[00:18:58] And that there's been a lot over the, the last 15 to 20 years where you get these atmospheres and these, these environments where you're creating so many in so many individuals rather than a true team coming together, um, so that now you, you, you kind of gotta rebuild that, right? This is the We Not Me podcast, and they couldn't be more apt for, for kitchens. I think that environments where people are taught, not only to taught skills, but when they're taught to teach, right? If you teach, if, if I'm in charge and I'm teaching you how to do something, I should also be teaching you, Dan how to con how it should be conveyed in this environment, so that when Pia is is set to learn the same thing that you're learning. Dan, you are teaching. Dan is teaching Pia in a manner that is, um, conducive to everybody wanting to learn, wanting to do better for the sort of, for the collective.
[00:20:00] And so, yes, there's definitely some, some unhealthy patterns out there. There are definitely some un unhealthy environments. Um, I feel like I can't speak to other spaces, but I can definitely say that in the United States, uh, up here in Seattle, the west coast is definitely not, not nearly as accepted as it once was to be running things that way.
[00:20:25] Dan: And what initiated that shift, do you think? So, so you said 10 or 15 years ago, it sort of started to improve. What, what, what was the driver of that?
[00:20:32] Simon: Again, here in the States, I think we saw that that wasn't healthy. I think people started kind of calling that out and, and, and some of it was just. People aren't taking it anymore. Like, we're just not gonna do this. We're just not gonna be treated that way. The pandemic accelerated some of that stuff to a almost crazy level where you just can't find cooks, can't find cooks, can't find dishwashers. 'cause people are like, no, there's better ways to make money,. And I, It's gonna swing away and it'll come back.
[00:21:04] Um, hopefully the people come back. Hopefully the joy of restaurants comes back. There's a whole lot of financial problems with the models of some of those restaurants, right? You're talking about, you're talking about hard, hard hours. And there's a lot of ways to make money nowadays, a lot of them having to do with these cool little computer things in front of us, where people are going, well, I don't need to work that hard. Why would I do that?
[00:21:26] I've made some choices in my life where I said, do I want to cook great food or do I want to make enough money to eat great food? So, you know, I, I know that, uh, I had to adjust my style 'cause I, I was a screamer and a yeller for a couple years. Um, and I, I just, I, I saw the limiting factor of it. I knew that I would get what I needed for a little while, but at some point those people didn't, they weren't interested in necessarily helping me.
[00:21:54] Pia: Hey, Simon. Tell me how you, how a, a typical shift starts. I think I observed this in a restaurant in Melbourne, but I, I had sort of thought people just wandered into the job and picked up their apron and, and got going. But I think there's a bit more to it. So what's the structure for the, for the team that's working together on a, on a shift? What's a, what's a typical way of doing that?
[00:22:16] Simon: I mean, I feel like a lot of places, they're gonna have a locker room, right? So everybody goes in and they, and they change out of their street clothes, and they get into their uniform. And there's, uh, there's some comradery building and, you know, talking, talking about your day or talking about the, you know, what has happened and the day before, and then you get, get your knives and make sure that you have everything set up and you get in your station. I think that's very back of house driven, I think.
[00:22:41] Front of house, you know, when you look at a waiter and you, and the, the, the, the, the assistants and the busboy, whatever you wanna call them, there always seems to be some, some form of side work that really, you know, they've gotta be, whether it's polishing silverware or adjusting tablecloths, or folding napkins or polishing glasses. And so I think it's all about preparation. There's just some sort of, some, there's usually some downtime, not downtime as much, but it's not, you want, the guests aren't in the
[00:23:10] Pia: the warm up.
[00:23:12] Simon: it's the warmup, Um, giving you the opportunity to sort of like roll, roll and get ready into your, into your day or into that service. You know, I mean, I've worked in some restaurants where they open at 10 o'clock in the morning and they shut at one o'clock and, and they shut one o'clock the next morning. So there are some that are crazy. You walk in and there's just always something happening and there's others finer, more fine dining establishments that probably, a more condensed, time of service,
[00:23:41] Dan: You know, quite often we work with teams and they've got another team that they rely on that they really tight, they're either really tight with or that that relationship doesn't quite work. How does that relationship tend to work or not work sometimes? How does that look?
[00:23:56] Simon: Um, you know, I think that front of house, back house is, is a, that, that's a, that's a tenuous thing. Um, for me as a manager, um, as a leader. I try to wield communication as my magic wand, right? Like I'm, I'm the guy who, who makes it a point to find my front of house counterpart and, you know, sort of almost insist on two minutes a day where we discuss like, what's about to ha what, what are we about to step into, right? Uh, are there, is it going to be busy?
[00:24:29] And I think that the more that I do that, or the more that I have done that, the less contentious my relationship was with the, with the manager. And, and I always I always really was very adamant with all of my team that we are all one team, right? And the more that we communicate effectively and respectfully, um, the better it goes for all of us. 'Cause at the end of the day, the, the goal is to fit, is to take, is to take care of the guests that's walking through the door. And if we. Allow ourselves to become petty or allow ourselves to become shortsighted in, in the you versus me, me versus you kind of thing, then we aren't necessarily going to achieve optimal results.
[00:25:17] So it can be contentious. I've, I've worked in plenty of those, but I've also worked in somewhere like, as I tell people, we have one set of standards for communication and we're not going to deviate from those. We're not gonna have one set for us and then the them, right? We're not gonna allow that to happen. One set of respectful standards for communication means that we're, we act like a team front and back.
[00:25:44] Pia: Where have you seen it go horribly wrong?
[00:25:47] Simon: Truly, I think that happens when there isn't great communication from front to back or back to front. For example, there's a show in town and so we are close to the theater and maybe we didn't do a good job of scouting to find out that, um, there's a show at five and seven. All of a sudden we've got a hundred more people than we had expected. And then we start to seat and seat and seat, and we don't take that moment to walk to the back and go, chef, you're about to get your ass handed to you. Um, and, and, or, and, or, we didn't, we didn't see it coming and we, you know, there's just none of, there's just no communication.
[00:26:27] Um, I think the other side of that is, oh gosh, the guy who grills my stakes and is a dream and is just flawless, he's been sick for three days and he's out. And another person decided that their girlfriend is more important than their job, so they didn't come to work. And here I am, I am the chef and I've got my sous chef standing next to me and we are down two people and I didn't communicate that to anybody to say, Hey, I'm limping back here, be go easy on me.
[00:26:59] And then all of a sudden we're in this situation where things are not going well and, and tempers start to flare. And I think that, I don't care how good you are, how much you care about communication when, when it all starts to go south, you know, tempers flare, they just do like and, you know, I think that great teams apologize later and, and have a beer or have a glass of wine and say, cheers, and we love you and like tomorrow. Um, and not so great teams don't. And it becomes some an, some, animosity. That's what I'm looking for.
[00:27:33] Dan: Okay. Yeah, that's it.
[00:27:35] Simon: So, you know, but, but I think I, I just can't say it enough, you know, like. Communicating what is happening to you or happening with you in that moment to the, to the person across the way, in whatever form that is. That for me is, is everything,
[00:27:53] Pia: When the communication breaks down, that's when the tensions arise, and that's when the challenges, and then it's very difficult to deliver whatever you are delivering, whether that's a plate of food or um, or a tech product. Doesn't matter, but it, but if that communication isn't there, that's the key element.
[00:28:11] Simon: I, I have five words that I, that I, I tell, I, I say to people all the time, I'm like, these are the most poignant, most like huge things you could possibly say to somebody and they're like, what are they? And they're on the edge of their seats. I'm like, just so you are aware, right? Like, you know what I mean? Just
[00:28:29] Dan: good. There's the two of us back here.
[00:28:34] Simon: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Or hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna teach the young kid who only washes dishes, how to work on work in the kitchen today. There might be a little slowdown, so be nice.
[00:28:47] Dan: just so you're aware. Yeah, love it.
[00:28:49] Simon: You know, just so you're aware. Hey, uh, I was shorted tomatoes, so I'm, you know, there's no tomatoes on the salad today, just so you're aware. Right. But I that, that, that is like those five words, people who have worked with me in restaurants, they just know that I'm always gonna come up to them and, and tell them things that wouldn't always feel like they are going to impact their world. But you know what? When something happens, let two hours later and they go, oh, you know, chef's having a rough day, let's figure something out. Because they're aware of our surroundings.
[00:29:23] Dan: it's an absolute gem, and this might be an unfair question, but we always end on this one. I've got one final question for you after this, but you've done a lot of leadership of teams in your time. Um, it, as I say, it might be unfair to ask you this, but what's a, was one single little tip you'd leave any team leader with from what you've extracted from that time? You've just dropped a couple of absolute belters, but if there's any, there's one final tip you leave us with.
[00:29:49] Simon: You know, I, I think for me it's probably ask before you tell, listen before you speak, and as I used to tell my sous chefs a lot, there's three Cs to success. Communication, communication, communication. And so that's what I'm gonna go with.
[00:30:07] Dan: I love it. It's perfect. It's perfect. Um, Simon, it's, it's just amazing how, uh, this strange world for most of us, it just has given you such a deep understanding, and I think it's resonating with teams that we know really well. So, um, I've just, our final, final question, Simon. Is there a book, a podcast, Netflix series that you'd recommend to someone either to get into this world or to learn how to do it well, or, yeah, what's your, what's your recommendation?
[00:30:36] Simon: Well, on my nightstand right now is a book called Unreasonable Hospitality, and it's, uh, written by Will Guidara. And it is, It really takes. Exceeding expectations and just lays it out. And I think that you could, you could be limited in your thought and say, oh, that's just for restaurants. But I really think that if we, as, as culture groups of people really look to exceed each other's expectations, it, it, it's, it's good stuff. So Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara, that is my hands down best referral right now.
[00:31:13] Dan: Wonderful. And if yes, leaving us with that idea of exceeding each other's expectations in the broadest possible sense is, is a rather rather wonderful end. Simon, thank you so much for joining us from Seattle today. It's been a delight to have you on the show.
[00:31:28] Simon: Well, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure.
[00:31:30] Pia: Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful to chat.
[00:31:31] Simon: love to do it anytime you like.
[00:31:33] Dan: Excellent. We might get you back on, you never know. Be careful what you wish for. Thank you so much, Simon.
[00:31:38]
[00:31:41] Pia: I didn't last very long as a waitress. Actually. I think I only did about two shifts, and then I had a bit of a problem, which was that I could only, you know how you're meant to carry three or four plates? I could only carry two.
[00:31:52] Dan: Yeah, no,
[00:31:53] Pia: Slightly being a little accident prone, you know, so they put me on the bar and unfortunately I tripped over the top step. It was a, it was a nightclub, and I tripped over top step and bucket of ice scooted across the dance floor midnight, and I was, it was all melting I was trying to get it back into the bucket, and everyone was sliding around on the dance floor. It was my, it was it, it was my shining moment. So I, I didn't have Simon to, to, to not be into shape at this point, but yeah,
[00:32:25] Dan: I'm not sure that hospitality is the place for a disciple of Miranda Hart, uh, to be honest.
[00:32:32] Pia: Definitely not, but I love, I lump some of the things that, that Simon talked about, you know, and that, you know, you picked up the three Cs, it was like, this is not clarity, climate competence, this is communication, communication, communication. And he's absolutely right, you know? Tell your people what's happening and what may be the impact. And those five words, you know, just so you are aware.
[00:32:56] And the framing of things is really powerful, you know, because otherwise you withhold knowledge and information and it's attached to power. And that can be really toxic. Dysfunctional, and you're never gonna get the most out of people. Whereas if you just open up those lines of communication, you can achieve a very different outcome.
[00:33:19] Dan: Yeah. Both in the, in the kitchen team and to the front of house or whoever your neighboring team is, just to be able to say, Hey, just so you're aware, this is happening in the kitchen. So otherwise, I think that there's sometimes a tendency to say, ah, don't they know that we've we're, uh, uh, you know, a person down, or we don't have a pastry chef or whatever it is, and actually just using that as a, it's being proactive.
[00:33:41] You know, I just, just finished reading the full version 'cause I've read the summary before, but I've just finished reading Team of Teams by Sandy McChrystal in full and it, by the way, it's wonderful, absolutely amazing. I have to say, I'm a huge fan of business book summaries, but this one really let me down. I miss the spirit and the depth of the work they'd done. And one of the things they talk about is this shared consciousness across these big teams of teams. And that's a great, that's a really proactive way, isn't it, to build that shared consciousness, not just of things that are happening, but things that could happen. Things that are happening over here that you need to be aware of. Things that we need to be, yeah, need to be aware of. So, uh, it was interesting. He, you know, the awareness thing is about shared consciousness. It's very proactive to just say, I'm gonna make sure everyone knows about this situation and not, not keep it to myself.
[00:34:28] Pia: And, and, um, with that, his tips, you know, ask before you tell, listen before you speak. You know, there's a, there's a, there's a curiosity, and there's, you know, real authenticity in that. But, but again, it's just being interested in people, and being interested in the situation.
[00:34:45] And you don't, you would feel that if you're a person sitting in a restaurant, you know when the staff are edgy, and things aren't going particularly well and it puts you right off. 'Cause you'd go in there to forget about that. Because to be honest, you might as well cook at home. There's plenty of edginess around my family table, so I, I don't wanna go and pay
[00:35:05] Dan: we can create our own tension, can't we? That's fine.
[00:35:08] Pia: but if I pay money, then, then I really would quite like to have a special experience
[00:35:12] Dan: No, definitely,
[00:35:13] Pia: and to really enjoy it.
[00:35:14] Dan: it spills outta the kitchen. And my daughter works, does, did quite a bit of work in hospitality and um, you know, on the pass on, you know, where they pass the food over at the service, you know, the kitchen can infect the front of house with that sense of panic and anger. You know, some of the, you know, there's a quick brief interchange and that can be pleasant or unpleasant and it's going to impact the, the people at the front. So, um, yeah. it's really being aware of that.
[00:35:38] I think the other thing I really liked about Simon was this is, you know, we get a lot of, a huge variety of people here, but here's someone who has actually tried shouting and screaming and, you know, in his career, and he is self-aware enough and modest enough to recognize that. And also to have said, experimented with actually, if I take a different approach, what it, what, what result will I get? And what he got was greater productivity, greater engagement.
[00:36:03] And also in service. You know, there's a re, there's a reputation in this, in hospitality for high turnover of staff and I thought his, when he said that the shouting and screaming puts an expecta, uh, an expiration date on relationships, I thought, wow, that's so telling that if you are doing that, people are just saying I'm planning when I'm gonna clock out of this place, um, already because I, I can't stand this for the long term. You still think that's a cycle of constantly having new people and probably thinking, I need to really shout at these people 'cause they dunno what they're doing.
[00:36:36] So, uh, that, that was the fact that he'd been through all of that and he'd come out with this different way of doing things, I think means that it's, it can be really trusted what he's saying. Wonderful conversation and I'm so glad we did one about the kitchen.
[00:36:51] Pia: I know you got your wish episode. What was it? 90?
[00:36:54] Dan: 90, 90? 90? Yeah. And so, yeah, very exciting. And Simon did a cracking job for us. And, um, anyway, there's lots of stuff in the show notes about things that Simon has mentioned, and so I hope our listener will be able to feast on that, if you like. So, uh, but that is it for this episode. Did you see what I did there?
[00:37:12] You can find show notes where you are listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:37:30] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.