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We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
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Junae Benne: You are now rocking with the
hostess with the most this, this is your
girl, the Natural Hair gamer, Jana Venet.
And we are on another podcast episode
with another guest of Gaming for
the Culture where we feature maybe
people you've heard of or unsung
heroes of the gaming industry.
And I'm really excited for this episode.
Like I'm excited for every episode
because when I tell you every
guest we have, it's a banger.
It's a banger after banger after banger.
I don't know how I do
it, but I just do it.
Okay.
And huge shout out to, um,
the guest joining us today.
And I actually stumbled upon his work.
Uh, I'm assuming it has to be like years.
Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it's
been a very long time that I've kind
of been waiting for the progression
of more teasers, um, of his game.
And he's solo Deving a game
called sort of a Symphony.
And if you haven't heard of it, you're
about to hear all about it right now.
But before we get into that, I
would love to introduce Steven.
Steven, say hi to the people.
Stephen Ddungu: Thank you.
That was a very nice intro.
I was at the beginning hostess of the
Junae Benne: Thank you.
Thank you.
Sounds good.
Very clear.
Ever since I started streaming,
that's kind of been like my.
Thing to be like you are now racking with
the hoses with, and it's just, I don't
know, to me it just, it, it makes sense.
It introduced myself.
It tells people like what I'm interested
in, in like a very short section.
'cause you know, you know, people
have been interviewing since then.
They're like, what's your bio?
What's your bio?
Do you have a bio?
You're like, oh my gosh, fine.
Like, I'll write something about myself.
So, um, yeah, that's pretty much very
autistic, pretty much how that works.
Hmm.
Yeah.
So Steven, tell us about you.
Tell us, um, you know, we were talking
a little bit earlier about how you've
always been involved in some type of
musical aspect or, um, yeah, just,
just in the arts in general, right.
Music, writing, things like that.
Give us a quick backdrop of,
um, how you got into music.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
So, um, literally ever since I was.
Well, my earliest memory is three.
Um, my mom says ever since I was
three months old, but you know, I,
okay, I'll take her word for it.
You know, that kind of thing.
Um, I've kind of always
been composing music.
Um, 'cause I had a little small
keyboard that I had when I was a kid.
Um, and I was completely obsessed with it.
So every morning after my mom would
get me ready, when I was like a
small child, I'd like go downstairs
and like, just try stuff out while
she was getting ready and then like,
go to school and then come back.
And then, you know, any ideas that
I had in the day, I'd just bang
them out or develop the ones that
I had in the morning of that day.
And then I just, you know,
keep going, keep going.
And, uh, just through that I was
able to then just kind of understand
just the anatomy of just the way
notes and music are constructed,
just from just a very raw standpoint.
And that's how I became self-taught.
Um.
Because my relationship with music
was kind of like, I kind of grew
up with it as I was learning more
about the different combinations
that sound pleasing to the year.
And then I'd hear things that I'd
be inspired in and then I'd wanna
try that out and then make my own
things, you know, based on what
I felt worked and felt resonated.
So I was doing that.
Then I started doing that digitally from
the age of 10, 11 when I had my first
laptop, um, had a, a program called z
My show, I dunno if it still exists,
but it was like the Windows version of
Garage brand because Garage Brand can
only get that on a, on a, on a Mac.
And I had a, I had a, well, I had
a PC and I did try, but, uh, yeah,
the best I could do was z my show.
So, you know, and I had the, like,
the lighted version 'cause you know,
I wasn't gonna buy it at 11 years old.
I had no, I even have a bank account.
So, so I just had to say with the
live version like you, where you
can only have like three tracks and.
Boy, I used those three tracks, like,
uh, like my life depending on it.
So, um, did that all the
way up until I was like 15.
Then I, um, downloaded that whole
studio because I realized you
could also get that for free.
And I was like, okay, nice.
More tracks.
So then with that I was able to then just
really explore my musical ideas while
also I had like a, a larger baby piano
to kind of get my musical ideas down.
Um, all throughout school I was in
competitions because, you know, me
being self-taught and that, and me
being good at it from the age of like,
well three months, um, kind of like
put me ahead of a lot of people that
would, were just learning how to do it.
Um, round about that age.
Um, 'cause that's where, you know,
they start teaching you how to play
piano and like guitar and like, um,
record it by force, uh, in school.
So, uh, so at that point
I was kind of like.
I had like a head start.
So all the teachers were
recommending me for like different
competitions and uh, music cups.
And, uh, through that, like I really
just, they really became a part of my
identity because I was like, oh yeah,
this was the thing that I was good at.
So I, I kind of became
more engrossed in that.
And then I started composing
just songs just for myself.
Like, I used to use music and I
still do to this day, but I would
use music as a way to kind of just
imagine kind of different worlds.
And I'd like make entire narratives in my
head based on the music that I would make.
Um, similar to like film scores, which is
why classical music is my favorite genre.
And um, up until that point I'd only
really been doing that to myself.
And then there was a girl in my sixth
form and she, um, she sat next to me and
I was talking, had my headphones, and she
was like, oh, what are you listening to?
And I was like, damnit, because, you know,
listening to classical music is quite
niche, so, you know, it's not something
that you, you know, bump your head to and
like, you know, listening in the club.
So I was like, all right.
You got me.
I have to show someone
else, like my music.
So, you know, I tried to kind of
like bravado it up and yeah, I made
this, you know, like this is, yeah.
Like, uh, I'm a composer,
you know, I am that guy.
Yeah.
Naturally.
So, uh, yeah.
And then, um, and then she really liked it
and then she was like, oh yeah, she, you
should be a composer, et cetera, and so
stuff you should make a YouTube channel.
And I was like, oh, okay.
And then, um, because I've been using
music as a way to kind of like, in
imagine like kind of scenarios and
narratives, I tried to like do this
experiment with her and I was like,
oh, so what does it make you imagine?
And then when she verbatim kind of
described it the way I envisioned it,
when I composed it, I knew that wow, you
could really tell stories through music.
Yeah.
It's like music is not just a
medium just to vibe to musically.
It's like sonically, like you can
also use it as a narrative device to
specifically evoke certain imagery.
Um, and that's when I knew that.
The music has a lot more potential, um,
to really be involved a lot more than
it usually is in films and media in
general, um, as a storytelling device.
So, fast forward, I made that YouTube
channel, um, I took her advice and um,
you know, I really took off with it.
Um, I went from making covers,
you know, 'cause obviously
you've gotta get the views.
And then, um, from there, um, I was
dabbling in animation because when
I reached 1000 subscribers I wanted
to do something special for it.
And then with, and also because, um.
I had been, well, obviously I had
been dabbling in animation because
through that time period I was also
imagining like a whole story around
the musics that I was writing.
So it kind of made sense at that
point to just make it about that.
When I reached 1000
subscribers, then I did.
Um, a lot of people were liked it,
but a lot of people were like, oh
yeah, you should improve Steven this.
I mean, this doesn't, 'cause obviously
like back then my animation skills
were not really that, that good.
So, um, but I did try my
best and people saw that.
They're like, oh yeah, it has
charm, like on sort of stuff.
But like, you know, it's, it was
like the nicest way of people saying
that it, it, the animation of side
of it sucks without actually telling
me it sucked, but I, I got it.
I got the message.
So I was like, okay.
But then like, I could have just
like stopped it there and, but
like in my head I was like, boom,
I got myself up to this far.
There's potential for
me to actually improve.
And, um, and I would like to have
seen like, you know, those stories
come to life because apart from
music, like I always like, uh.
The way I write is very philosophical
and I kind of like to kind of, um, make
a little thought, thought scenario.
So thought experiments with the scenarios
that I create and uh, which is what
my first project purpose is full of.
So from then I made an account for my,
um, first project, which was called
Purpose, which is an animation project.
And then, uh, I, the music covers that
I was doing on YouTube was just ways to
promote my purpose project, which worked.
And, um, from then, um, I was around
about second to third year in university.
And um, I had, initially, I was initially
studying law, but then I switched
to music technology because being a
lawyer, I like law, I would've done law.
But the truth about law is you have to
have passion for being a lawyer, rather,
like you can have passion for the law.
I do and I do, but, um, or at
least studying the law, but.
Being, having passion as a lawyer,
as a career is entirely different,
and that's not something I really
ever really had the passion for.
Um, although like stuff like contract
law and uh, um, like, well, it
has always been my favorite law.
I scored quite high on that.
Um, and I still use it, you know, to,
it's kind of followed me everywhere
I go, you know, especially in
the career that I am right now.
Um, so like it's always been a
part of me that I actually cherish.
But as a being a career lawyer, um,
one of my lecturers were like, yeah,
like this is something that not a
lot of you will go through because
you have to be passionate in this.
You have to be commercially aware.
You have to like, attend all these like
events and et cetera and be involved and,
you know, read all the papers about it.
And, um, and that's like, I'm not,
I was like, I don't wanna do that.
I just wanna just wanna know the law.
And I was like, okay.
So then I just, um, last minute,
um, deep into the course I decided,
okay, I'm just gonna switch.
And I wanted to do a nice animation
initially, but then obviously.
Round.
By that time, my skills were kind of
like not as good, so I got rejected
and then I ended up doing music
technology because that was like
the closest thing that I could do.
So I was like, all right, I might
as well just do this and then just,
I know, get like an easy degree.
Um, and then because, you know, at
that point in my life, like I was very
encouraged by my family to get a degree.
So I was like, okay, but like I'm
just gonna like, just socialize
and study in exam season only, just
like, you know, most junior students.
And, uh, yeah, that's basically
what I did on the exam.
And also I used that as an
opportunity to further the
development of my project purpose.
And then when I reached third year, um,
I had to think of something to do for
my final project, um, which involved
the usage of music and imagery and.
Since I had already made the cinematic
trailer for purpose, which I was
initially going to use for that, um,
for that assignment, um, they said
I couldn't use that for the course
because, well, it's like I've already
almost finished it, so it's almost like
I didn't really have to do it for uni.
So I was like, okay, well I have to
think of something completely new.
Uh, so then that's when saw the
symphony was born, um, out of
necessity for a university project.
And then I was like, okay, I'm just
going to do this and just hand it
in for university and then just get
back to working on purpose and then.
I made a social media account for it
because people back then were following
me more for my purpose project.
And um, I made like the first, um, teaser
for it, which eventually got featured on
IG and after I'd my interview with them.
But, um, I made my first teaser,
um, trailer for so in me solely
to let people know that, oh,
this is what I'm working on.
I'm not dead, you know, I just
need to do this for university.
And, uh, you know, it also, I also used
that to show my university professors
kind of like what the concept of the
game would probably like, be like,
it's music and you know, like character
action, like combined and that's, this
is basically what I'm gonna go for.
Um, and I kind of just uploaded
it on YouTube, kind of like
opportunistically, like, okay,
I can also show people as well.
And then, um, when I started making
the, um, combat for the game, the
music combat, that's when those reviews
really skyrocketed because, um, at
that time it was quite a novel idea.
Uh, we're talking like.
May March, 2021.
Um, so like at that point there
wasn't, it wasn't, it was a very, very
uncommon and still very novel idea.
Um, this is before the likes of Hi-Fi
Rush and you know, we other things that
had come after it, um, that kind of
utilized that same concept, but at that
time it was very kind of still new,
um, or at least very, very uncommon.
So that's when it really skyrocketed
in views because people were
like, oh, it's actually, you fight
with the actual music itself.
And, uh, it's not just like a
hacking slash with just music VFX,
um, like most games that implement,
um, like kind of music characters,
just the VFX that is just music.
But like, you know, they could have,
they could have done a lot more.
So like, that's kind of like why I
was inspired by, which, you know,
was like, okay, I could do this.
And then, um, from that point onwards,
it kind of became my career because then.
Uh, promotional, um, game sharing,
uh, page on in TikTok called Game Dev.
Blaster shared my account and
it really blew up on TikTok.
And then, um, people were DMing me like,
oh, I really love your game on TikTok.
I was like, well, blah, blah.
What do you mean?
I, I don't even have an account.
Like, you probably got the wrong
guy, but it's not the wrong guy.
'cause that's actually my project.
So all you, so I had to investigate,
and then the owner of the page DMed
me, like, oh yeah, you really should
say something to these people.
They really love your
project and sort of stuff.
So I was, at that point, I
was, I was one of 'em, like,
uh, I'm not gonna get TikTok.
They also feel like, you know,
that's, that's for the cringe people.
But, um, but then I was like, uh, but
then I was like, um, but hang on a second.
Like, the only way to read the
comments is if I get a TikTok account.
So I was like, okay,
you got me, you got me.
I'll make a, I'll make an account,
but I'll just make an account,
just read the comments and then
I'll probably delete it afterwards.
And then people were like, oh,
where's his, uh, TikTok account?
Like, where, where does he post?
Uh, like, what page?
And then, and then I was like, um.
You know what?
I might as well just post
my updates on TikTok.
I mean, it's a video sharing platform.
So I was like, okay, I
might as well do that.
So, and I made the first video,
it got like a million views.
Um, and then I was like, so then I
was like, maybe it's a fluke that
million, I'll just post another
one and then see how it does.
And then I also got a
million views and I was like,
all right, I am now a TikTok.
I've never heard someone
Junae Benne: so reluctant
about their success on TikTok.
Oh man.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
Uh, that, and that it was that
day that I became a TikTok.
So, um, yeah, then I continued posting,
uh, about the pro on my progress on that.
And um, that's kind of, that took
full swing and lead up to where
we are right now, where I am.
That's, that's basically
the project that I work on.
But in last year, um, well, not
last year, but yeah, at the end of
2023, um, during September, 2023 to.
March, 2024.
I realized that, well, this is actually
my first project saw Symphony and
um, it's very, very anticipated.
So, uh, I kind of have no choice
but for it to do really well.
Otherwise, you know, that's
like, that's like my career gone.
'cause I, I intend to like, do more stuff
after saw Symphony and like, around it.
And like, I don't wanna have like
this huge stain that my first
project like kind of flopped, um,
because of lack of experience.
Um, and even though I do believe I
can do it, like the real, like it's
the realistic, um, is it, is it like,
it's, it's not the most realistic to
assume that your first ever project
will be like, fly, like flying off
the charts in terms of quality.
Um, especially if you're
in, well, you're not.
I mean, you're experienced but not
experienced to like make a full
game from start to finish yet.
So I was like, well, I
mean, yeah, but you're
Junae Benne: not like us, right?
Like, you're not like us.
Like that's okay if that happens
with you because you know, when
you say that, oh, I don't expect my
first project to go off like that.
Um, if I'm not mistaken, Neil Jones's
first project, you know, uh, it's
was kind of like that as well.
Um, oh no, we are, oh, Neil,
sorry if you're listening.
I didn't forget the name of your game.
I promise I didn't.
I'm just gonna get the title.
Damn.
She
Stephen Ddungu: forgot
the name of your game.
Junae Benne: No, Neil.
I did.
Um, Ariel Knights.
We never yield Ariel Knights.
We never yield.
So, um, I feel like it
was kind of like that too.
Like he did a good job.
And a lot of people are,
I think I've actually
Stephen Ddungu: seen
that before, actually.
Yeah, that's very good.
Definitely.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
And you know, and now he
has a sequel to it, right?
And so like he can, he can choose
what he wants to do with it.
He can continue to world build,
you know, around the story.
'cause the story was really good.
And, you know, he, he made a simple
game for a reason or, or a game that you
can easily jump in and out of, right?
Like as an adult gamer, he was like,
I don't want this to be a thing
where, you know, you have to play it.
But you know, if you wanna watch
an episode of anime, you could
play an episode of the game, right?
Like, and it's just 20, 30 minutes.
You don't have to like dedicate, you
know, 12 hours a day after coming
home from work or, you know, so
he made a very specific game and
is doing what it's supposed to do.
And you know, you're getting a lot of
feedback on this game and I think, um.
I think you're in a good space.
I think you're in a good space for your
game, like you said before, Hi-Fi Rush.
And it's even still different than
the mechanics and the combat are
combat are even still different.
And with the audience of like
Kingdom Hearts and Sonic like we
were talking about earlier, those
people are going to be on your game.
And I think that, I don't know
if they will ever disappear.
I don't think Kingdom Hearts and uh,
Sonic fans will, will ever disappear.
Right.
Yeah.
I love thinking about them have on all
Stephen Ddungu: the patience.
Wait,
Junae Benne: that too.
Especially, especially now.
Stephen Ddungu: I mean, I'm a,
as a Kingdom Heart fan myself,
like, uh, you know, yeah.
The wait for Kingdom Heart course.
Like we've had no news.
Well, yeah, but we've
had no news for like.
Kingdom has four.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
Stephen Ddungu: Um, since the first
trailer, but we are all here for it,
you know, like we, we will sit here and
wait till the end of time, but beyond
the end of time we will we'll latch on.
Exactly.
Just to, just to hear some
news and, uh, exactly.
Yeah.
Now we are passionate about that
franchise, so we, I'm glad that,
you know, a lot of those same people
are also into my project as well.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
And I think, and I think that's great
that you have an audience, like, you
know, your target audience is also
very patient, but they also understand
that it's like just you, are you open
to having other people work on this or
are you so, uh, committed to like every
single detail that you don't know if
you would have teammates like currently?
Stephen Ddungu: Um, I'm not
the most open to teamwork.
Um, the most that accept is like, like
a contractor to work on a single task.
Here and there, but only if it's
like last minute is what I need to.
Um, it's not because I don't
necessarily like teamwork.
Um, it's because, um, from experience
before in Game Jams and also like doing
like, well hiring contractors in the
past, um, there's a lot of management
that's needed to ensure that the quality
is at the specific type that you wanted.
To the point where you'll be
sending a lot of documents and
you'll be sending a lot of videos.
Even like I made whole videos, I
almost made like tutorials, like
almost the way they're structured.
Um, and um, a lot of checking in, um,
which in and of itself is not a problem,
but because, and because of the dialogue
needed, um, to get one task done.
Um, and all that's needed to prepare,
um, all the materials for that.
As a person who myself has the
skills to do it myself very quickly.
It's almost like I'm wasting more
time working in a team than I
would be had I just done it myself.
And, which sounds a lot counterintuitive
'cause a lot of people will
be like, oh, Steven, like more
people means, you know, faster.
But honestly it's like, no, because
it comes with its own, it comes with
its own s like separate system time.
Like Yeah.
It comes with its own separate things
that costs a lot of time that if you
had the skills, you would've done it
with it, like in the time span that it
would've taken for them to have started.
Because there's all li the kind of
conversation process that needs to be done
before it even begins in the first place.
But I would, I'd recommend it
to those who don't have all the
skills because it makes sense.
Mm-hmm.
Because then like to learn this skills
from scratch, you know, hiring someone
else, it's a lot faster to do so
therefore you will get it done sooner.
But if you have all the
skills like I've been.
Like training myself to kind of have
all these skills ever since seven,
well, almost seven, eight years ago.
Um, that's, that's kind
of all ingrained in me.
I can do it from the same laptop.
Um, so for example, if I'm doing the
music, especially for sort of symphony,
that has me bounce between tasks a lot.
So, because I'll be doing the combat
and trying to match it to the music,
and then if I need edits to be done
or the move to look different because
it, the gesture sounds different in
the music, then I need to tweak that.
But then if I want someone
else to do that, first of all,
that's like two separate people.
If I didn't know how to
do both those skills.
So then that's a lot.
That's like two separate
conversations, two separate
documents, two separate, you know, um.
You know, liaisons happening at the
same time, which I mean even, yeah,
that example, you can have it done
relatively like maybe a week or something.
But that, but with me, I just have to
open up fl and like, um, well range,
which is the game engine that I use.
Two in like one tab over here, one tab
over there and then just, you know,
bing, bing bong is over there, export,
put it in there, change the animation.
'cause I also do 3D animation and then
that's done in like, maybe an hour.
So yeah, with that it's it.
Yeah.
And also I want to have my artistic
vision be very kept, very intact.
Yeah.
Um, 'cause at this time now I've
shared what the environment's gonna
look like, especially my art style.
But in 3D um, and um, yeah,
for that it makes sense that
I do it, um, for that reason.
So, yeah.
Junae Benne: Yeah, I
think that makes sense.
So you were mentioning the
part of being on a team versus
kind of just having it done.
Uh, you doing all the parts by yourself.
And I think the golden thing with you is
that you can do it by yourself, right?
You don't need to delegate like a task
out to anyone because you've been building
these skills, like you're like the
perfect candidate for like any job, right?
You've been building skills
since you were three, right?
And so now you could
do that in your sleep.
And now you've added on, you know,
your musically inclined skills and
now you've added on 3D animation
and drawing and game development
along with like coding, you know?
And on top of that, you have
like a legal aspect, like that's.
That's a lot of skills that, you know,
have been kind of stacked on one another.
And I know that when you start a project,
it could be difficult, uh, to even get
people to be like on board and like to
see your vision and things like that.
So with the games that you have, um,
worked on in the past, even if you know,
you're not ready to talk about them or
if that they're completed or if they're
just kind of some, like a project that
you kind of just put to the side because,
you know, this is kind of something
you did with sort of Symphony, right?
Or purpose.
Something you did with Purpose where
you're like, oh, I'm gonna make this
and sort of symphony, I'm gonna show to,
um, it was like a school thing, right?
And then mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You decided to like, make it
into something bigger because
it got so much attention.
What have you learned from
like working on a team where.
I mean, we've all had a group
project experience, right?
Where we're either doing all of the
work, uh, some of y'all listening
have done none of the work.
We're not judging.
We listen and we don't judge.
Um, but yeah.
What have you learned
by working on a team?
Stephen Ddungu: Um, so working with a
team, I've learned that it's necessary,
but it has its place when it's necessary.
So, for example, um, most people
will, um, have the assumption that
more people means higher speed of
just the entire project being done.
But what they don't realize is that,
um, having more people on the task
in incre, like has its own unique,
um, time consuming tasks that need to
be done to manage the team, to have
the product done in the first place.
Um, so for example, let's just
say I wanted, um, a 3D model.
Animated from start to finish.
Um, now I would then
reach out to a 3D modeler.
Let's just assume like, you know, the
concept is already done, um, even though
that would be its own kettle of fish, but
let's just assume that's already done.
So we have the concept, I want the 3D
modeled, then I'd send it to a 3D modeler.
Well, I, let's just assume I
already know these people because
that again, is another kettle
of fish to find these people.
But, um, I have my 3D modeler
in on discord or something.
I reach out to him.
I'm like, oh yeah, I
would like the 3D model.
Then I need to, you know, make
sure I have a turnaround, you
know, for what I designed.
Um, I am going to ask, you know,
you know, say what style I want.
That already is like a very lengthy
conversation or, you know, with.
You typically do like a whole document.
So now you're typing documents
in Google Docs and et cetera.
You know that you are, you and
time needs to be spent doing that.
You obviously need to word it in a way
that's feasible and understandable, so
you're gonna be writing that, um, and, or,
or, or like, or articulating it to that,
um, um, 3D modeler because, you know, you
need to be on the same mindset, uh, on
the same wavelength, on the same vision.
Um, and that requires
work to, um, get across.
So then after you do that, then obviously
you have to wait for them to do it.
They probably have some other, um, things
that they need to do in their life.
Um, since, uh, you know, your pa,
your passion project is only really.
Your passion project, um, like at least,
you know, to the maximum capacity of, you
know, the essence of the passion of it.
But other people that just,
it is something that they're
interested in doing while, you
know, also doing something else.
You know, since the career is not the,
their whole career is not their project,
it's the task that they are doing in
the project, which is a lot less, um.
S copious in terms of, uh, you know,
their degree of passion into it and,
you know, just their work in it.
So they're gonna be doing
other things as well.
Um, possibly when you reach out
to them, um, they need, they
reach out, back out to you.
Yeah, I can fill in my schedule.
Um, however, if you're lucky and they're,
um, doing it very quickly, then you know
they're gonna send, you know, photos
back to you while they're doing it.
And then you're probably gonna ask,
oh yeah, like, yeah, if you have a few
changes, um, you're gonna be asking
them for a few changes, et cetera.
So then they gotta redo things.
Um, and uh, you know, that's something
that you have to communicate to them with.
Um, they would've had to have
gotten those images ready.
So that takes a little bit of time for
them to do, um, to then send, and then
you open your dms and that sort of stuff.
And then.
Like, while it's being done, like
you have to, like, these are all
things that you have to like,
you know, wait, that take time.
And then, and then afterwards, um, you
know, you gotta send it back to revisions.
Let's just say you have to send
it back to revisions, which
is very common, by the way.
It's not even like I'm adding things
on purpose that you usually have
to send it back to for revisions.
Um, then they change it.
Um, and that's, if that's, if you
don't happen to have like a new
idea on top of what they're doing
already, that would change everything.
Um, which is usually also common as well.
But let's pretend that we're
not doing that then, you know?
Um, that in and of itself might take a,
maybe like a, a week, um, to get done.
Um, and that's just the 3D model.
Now we've gotta animate it or like rig it.
Um, then, um, assuming that that 3D model
is not a three E generalist, you have
to hand it over, um, to another, um,
person and then explain, you know, the,
um, what, you know, how you want them to
move, which determines how it's rigged,
what parts need to be rigged, et cetera.
Um.
What, what the, the, um,
facial expressions, what
you want to move, et cetera.
So you know, now you, now you gonna
write another document, um, you gotta
write another document, et cetera.
You know, do it again
and then, um, afterwards.
Yeah, so now you've, yeah,
yeah, then you, then you write
another document, et cetera.
And then after that, then
you do the same process.
Um, rigging it is, it is good that you
don't have to do too much revisions.
'cause after the document, okay,
fine, now you gotta do, now I gotta
get an animator to animate it.
And then you gotta explain to
them how you want them to move.
And that's a large document.
So, um, you gotta tell them exactly how
you want 'em to move, how you want to
smile, Steven, how you wanna be life.
Steven,
Junae Benne: you studied
law for a period of time.
Do you not love documents like,
you know, I do, like I do,
Stephen Ddungu: but then at the
same, but at the same time, like,
you know, there's a time and place
I'd rather have my game done.
So with me, for example, like
in the so dev experience, um,
since I am able to 3D model.
And rig and animate, I can have it
done in the same day because the
conversations that extend the time
periods and the waiting periods, yeah.
Do not apply.
So if you imagine like a really
fast, if you imagine, imagine if you
hired a really fast 3D modeler and
then just, uh, only extracted the
time in which they are working on
that project for all those tasks.
That's the length of time that it
takes for a single solid developer
who has all the skills to accomplish
all those, which doesn't actually
take half as long as it, you need to
manage, you know, all those tasks.
Um, if you're doing it, um, in
a team, I, but that's the key
Junae Benne: word, right?
Like if you have those
skills, because I understand.
Yeah, and I was gonna get to that as
Stephen Ddungu: well, which is why
it has, its because in the beginning
I said it has its time and it has
its place, you know, teamwork.
Like, if you're not able to do those
skills, then it makes a lot of sense
to offload it to another task because.
They have quite steep learning
curves for some of them.
So, um, it will take even longer for
you to learn the skills from scratch,
um, right, than it would take for you
to, um, uh, get someone else to do it,
even though you will have to manage it.
It's like a, it's the trade off, but
if you do have all the skills yourself,
then it is quite, it is a little, it,
it's a little bit of a disadvantage.
You're putting yourself slightly outta a
disadvantage, um, if you are doing that
because the amount of work you have to do.
Almost as if you would, might as well
have been doing it yourself because Yeah,
every step of the way it's like you are
inputting, you are doing the document.
Mm-hmm.
You are, you know, giving the feedback,
you're doing that sort of stuff.
So it's like, yeah.
Even though someone else is working on
the modeling, you are working as well
in that, in that same space and that
same environment as it's being done.
You might as well just, uh,
you might as well just model
it, uh, if you have the skills.
So, um, if you, yeah, if you do have all
those skills and you're able to do them
well and quickly, then it makes the most
sense for you to, uh, do it yourself.
And since that is the position I'm
in, it makes the most sense to do
most of the tasks in Sort Symphony,
um, completely by myself, if not all.
Um, and the reason why I say most is
because there'll be instances where it is
a little bit advantageous for, you know,
like one task to be done simultaneously
to when I'm doing another task.
For example, last year.
Um, I had to handle a bunch of
external stuff, um, outside of
game development, and I still
needed things to be moved along.
So that was like the first and only
time I hired, um, in 3D environment
modelers to work on like one
small section, um, of the game.
And, um, it was actually a, that
where I learned a lot of the things,
um, that I know about, you know, how
like the things required to actually
manage a team and that sort of stuff.
'cause while I did it effectively, I
learned very quickly that I is this,
its whole, it's this whole kettle,
it's, it's, it's its own kettle of fish.
I thought that, you
know, you know, oh yeah.
More people faster, et cetera.
I could probably even like, you know,
keep doing it while I'm working on it,
but because like, you know, I'm proficient
in the tasks that I asked them to do.
Um, it was like a, it, I saw the time
I would've been able to have done it
myself, um, that I would ha ha that I,
you know, saw being also included in
the fact that I had to manage it all.
And I was like, it's actually not as.
Time efficient as it theoretically sounds.
Although for other contexts where
you don't have the skills, it
is actually very time efficient.
So that's kind of my, you
know, um, relationship with
that and my, what I, yeah.
How I feel about that in general.
Junae Benne: Mm-hmm.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
And then I can use my essay writing
skills for other things like the story.
Junae Benne: Yeah, I,
I definitely get that.
You know, it's, it's interesting because
I guess like that makes me reflect on
myself because I've been sitting on
this game for like two years, right?
Yeah.
I've been sitting on this game
for like two years and I'm like,
dang, could I learn coding?
Could I have learned it?
Because I tried to learn coding back
in like 2017, and that's how I ended
up getting into UX design because I
was like, I like the techie side of it,
but I almost went blind, like trying
to stare at the screen, use my brain.
Like it was just a lot going on and
I just couldn't do it, you know?
And I also know my, my skillset,
and it's not that I am opposed
to learning a new skillset.
I feel like I'd rather hone my skills
and then see which, um, see what
integrates with the skills I already have.
I had a really good conversation
yesterday, uh, with a like game
ministry coffee chat where we
were talking about, you know, the
narrative design, narrative design.
Um, ga like game jobs and as well as
like QA and community management and
how like, you know, QA used to be like
a stepping stone and now there's so
many narrative people and like, you
know, not even 8% of them are employed.
And I just kind of keep thinking about how
I have skills, I've learned new things
and I wanna implement them, but like,
do they intersect in some type of way?
And not only that, but if I were
to go into coding at this stage,
right after being 12 years in the
industry, I would go into coding
and I would start at level one.
Right, like, right.
I'm at a, I'm, I'm at a senior
level for like writing stuff, right?
Maybe not even senior level
for narrative design, right?
Like maybe barely intermediate
for narrative design, right?
Just because I'm a good writer
doesn't mean that I'll make like
the best narrative design person.
And so now I'm like, oh,
I'm gonna go into coding.
Or like, oh, I'm gonna, you know,
major in Unreal or Unity and like,
you know, c and that I would go
back to being like junior level.
And now I'd spent another
10 years like doing that.
And then, you know, the
industry is gonna recover.
But now I'm looking at maybe
non non-gaming jobs, you know,
to do like the coach to, to do
the one thing that I learned.
I learned how to do the game development
because I wanted to make games.
And now I'm like, you know.
Cybersecurity for like, you know,
the, the health industry, which is
not the worst thing you could do.
Um, you know, so something like
those, those probably aren't even
related, but those job, uh, you
know, career class don't even match
Stephen Ddungu: but safe for music
where like, I've been learning ever
since I was like a very early child.
Yeah.
Everything that I learned,
I know how to do now.
I actually learned as I
was doing the things that I
needed them for straight away.
So, for example, coding, um, I
hadn't learned coding, uh, until
mid sort symphony, um, around about
late 2022, almost 2023 because
obviously the visual scripting
interface I was using didn't need it.
And, um, even game development, I
had only started that when I had the
idea to, you know, start making a
game for my previous project purpose.
And, um, the good thing about
doing it that way and not the
way where you just, um, you know.
Learn studiously like a university
student just from start to finish.
Everything you need to know about
it is that you are able to learn
more surgically to the things
that you actually need to use.
And it sticks more because you're
actively applying the things
that you are learning on the fly.
So, you know, even though like what I'm
producing is quite expert level, I dunno
everything about everything that in, in,
in the trade that, um, that I'm doing.
So, for example, with coding, does
I, I understand that there's a lot of
things, I dunno about coding, but I
know enough to make the game that I
need to make because I've been, um.
All the things that I've done every
step of the way, um, I've learned
those as I've needed to learn them.
And with that, you're able to learn
actually very quickly, because you always
know is you always know exactly what
the next thing you need to learn is.
And with that, there's no
guesswork in terms of, uh oh.
So, uh, where do I start?
You know?
Yeah.
Like from the beginning of the game,
there's, from the beginning of the
game, you know that what do I need?
You come, you operate from
a, a point of what do I need?
Oh, I need.
A model.
So I need to learn how to 3D model.
And then now when you're learning
how to 3D model, you're, you're going
to learn how to make a character.
You open up YouTube, how to make
a character, how to make a 3D,
um, ba base, mesh model human.
So then you learn, you go to
YouTube and then now you know,
you learn how to do that.
You already have fit into 3D modeling
and you have a foundation already that
incorporates a lot of other things.
You'll probably be using 3D modeling
for like other asset design just
in you learning how to do 3D just,
just by you learning how to make
a. 3D base model, human being.
Um, 'cause from that you'll know what
it takes to make other assets like a
tree, for example, which is a lot simpler
than a base human mo, um, base human.
But because there's tutorials online
that give you that you, you know,
enough to make the other things as well.
So it's like you learn one thing and
then other things open up to you.
And, um, after that you now know,
well, you now need to make it move.
So then you, uh, search, oh,
um, how do I rig a character?
And then you'll learn how to do rigging.
And then you're learn how to do animation.
And then you figure out, oh,
i's making one move, walk, jump.
So then, and even though animation's the
only one where like you can't really,
um, tutorial your way through the entire
thing, but you will then understand that,
okay, I need to learn how to animate
and I need to learn the fundamentals
and I need to, you know, get used to it.
But with animation, it's like
drawing where you have to kind
of grow with it based on, um.
The previous things that you did
and you improved along the way.
But even with that, you will, you
will know what you need to improve if
you're working on a specific project,
because if your walk animation looks
a little bit lanky, you know Oh, okay.
You compare it to references and then,
uh, references can be anything on YouTube,
like an actual person just walking or
like, you know, other games, um, where
like they have like a walking animation.
There's like a lot of, um, video
game reference, um, animation
YouTube channels that specifically
I follow one by the name of Alia.
Um, they have a lot of, um.
Ones for that.
And, um, yeah, it's, I look at
that, how it's done, and I look
at mine and I'm like, okay, so I
go frame by frame, what do I fix?
And then you, you go at it from
a very problem solving, um, kind
of problem solution, problem
solution kind of mentality.
And then the solutions, you, um,
the solutions that you find open up
the, your knowledge base that can
be applied to other problems you run
into because you ran into the solution
that kind of catches all those things.
So then, and then that's how you progress.
And actually you'll find that actually
it's, even though I've been, uh, well
a solo dev, um, in terms of like,
you know, the skills that I need to,
for like seven years now, ever since
I, uh, started, um, animating for my
project purpose, um, it didn't actually.
Like, it didn't actually take me that
long to finally be good at what I do.
Yeah, actually I actually picked
it all up around like 20 19, 20 20.
And then up until that point I was
just kind of honing my skills and
um, and you know, just patching
up, you know, smaller gaps in my
knowledge, um, in terms of that.
And then coding came later and
also to the animation as well.
But I treated those things the exact same.
Like, oh, I don't know, I need this,
how, what, what do I need to do this?
And then I searched for it,
apply in terms of learning.
It's very constructive the way
you, um, build your knowledge.
So, yeah,
Junae Benne: I was just about to
ask about the organization of it.
So were you doing something and then
you're like, oh, I need to like figure
out this animation and then kind of
pause that and do the animation, or would
you do kind of as much as you could do
and then say, I'm gonna bring in the
animation, uh, portion a little bit
later once I have a better understanding.
Stephen Ddungu: Um, no.
Yeah, the, the, the former.
The former, um, okay.
I learn, I, I, I realize I need something
and then I take the time to like learn it.
Um, so for example, even with,
um, when I'm working on Tour
Symphony, I have a test file
just for like specific mechanics.
Uh, may not themselves, not mechanics,
like game mechanics, but mechanics, like
if I need, so for example, if like I want
to do air combos and there's like a enemy
that, um, like launches the enemy up in
the air and then I jump up in the air,
um, you want your character to be on the
same level as the enemy when you jump up.
So then the attacks hit all the time.
So therefore you need a system where
the, the character lus up to the, when
you jump and you know that part of
the animation is playing, you need a
system that lus up to the enemy's level.
So there I have a test, I have test files
where I just isolate their specific.
Detail that I need to make it work
happen where I test it out and
then I'm like, okay, it works,
and then I apply it into the game.
So that's how, that's how you do it.
I'm at the point right now where
like tutorials can't really help
me anymore because the things
I'm doing are quite advanced and
over the scope of most tutorials.
Yeah.
But all, once you get to that stage, you
will actually be able to like handle doing
it that way because you'll have a, you'll
have all the fundamentals you need from
the stage when you are using tutorials.
So yeah, to learn to learn it from zero,
isn't that as daunting as it seems?
It's a journey.
It's just a, it's very, it's like a
building, a tower of, and your, that tower
is like made up of just your knowledge
and you are building it along the way.
So yeah, that's, that's how you
should, you ought to look at it.
Everything that you need to know, you will
know it at the time that you will need
to know it, because you are going to, you
know, pick that up and that's going to
actually open a lot of doors and help you
with the future things that you'll need.
So, yeah.
Junae Benne: That's pretty cool.
I have a question about, you know, you
were talking, uh, before we started
recording about how, like your mom
says that you, you know, you've been
musically inclined or at least musically
interested since you were about three.
And so when you went to college,
university, you decided to study law, and
then you switched to something that was
more, you know, um, geared toward music.
Was she surprised or was
she like, this makes sense?
It's absolutely you who do your thing?
Stephen Ddungu: Uh, a bit of both.
That's
Junae Benne: every parent's dream, right?
For to mm-hmm.
Their kid to be like a
doctor, a lawyer, or, yeah.
Yeah,
Stephen Ddungu: yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
I mean, it was a bit of both.
Like, oh, she was like, oh
yeah, it makes the most sense.
But she wasn't like, initially
wasn't like the most happy about it.
Um, definitely took a bit of like
getting used to my decision to do that
at first, but, um, but you know, not
too long after that, she was quite
supportive of just my switch to do that.
But, um, I, all parents want
their children to, um, do
something that in which they're
able to provide for themselves.
So, you know, switching from
something that's tried, tested,
and proven to something that.
Um, is very entrepreneurial in nature
and therefore the risk is a lot higher.
Obviously, it's daunting to any parent.
So, you know, with hindsight, I
understand, obviously, you know, the
fears, um, when you look at your child
and you're like, oh, that's different.
And, uh, yeah, I personally don't.
And then you look at your, and then
obviously with the knowledge that our
parents had back in the days that they
were making a living for themselves, like
this kind of stuff never even existed.
So it's something that they can't
really even like, give solid advice on.
So it's like they're just
as new to it as much as us.
So like the fear is even higher
for them, but, uh, you just gotta
stay convicted and, uh, show that
it actually can work, um, and
quickly as well, because, um, yeah.
Yeah, it's, uh, you don't
wanna worry them too much.
Um, you gotta show them, you gotta
have a solid plan, um, that you're
able to articulate to them and be
like, yeah, that's how it will work.
This is how it's gonna be done, et cetera.
And, um, and even then, like you still
need to, you, you, it's only until like
you start showing the results that, um,
you, they come around just like I imagine
any parent would really, um, because you
know, as children, you know, they look at
us and they're like, oh yeah, yeah, these
dreams and dreams and that sort of stuff.
Yeah.
But like, when is you gonna like,
actually like, you know, be serious
and like actually like get some,
get some money on sort of stuff.
So you actually get to show that your
dreams actually can achieve that.
And then when they can, that's
when they become your best friend.
And then it's like, okay, cool.
Nice.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
And now you could be like, Hey
mom, I'm gonna be a rapper.
Thanks for your social work.
Right.
Well, I mean, I just gotta
practice a little bit, right?
You just gotta practice a little bit.
But you could just hop right in.
Oh my goodness.
Precisely.
Speaking of rapping.
Speaking of rapping, I'm
not gonna ask you to rap.
Don't worry about it.
I won't ask you if you don't ask me.
Right?
Like, I won't.
Stephen Ddungu: I I was ready.
I was like, yeah, a pad.
You don't be prepared for anything, you
know, especially in these kind of movies.
Junae Benne: Yeah, that's,
that's very true.
So speaking of, uh, rapping the
music industry right now, because
you're very into classical, right?
Like that's what, um, you were like
working on and listening to when you
first got your push to, uh, upload some
of your music and a lot of rap and hip
hop came from like a lot of classical,
especially nowadays, it's kind of cool
to see where the samples came from.
Like, um, I don't know who you, you
would probably know the name if I started
throwing out some like music and saw that
it was sample, but I know the, uh, the
couple of ti songs of course, and Dr.
Dre used to do that all the time.
Do you feel like classical music is still.
Influence, uh, still influencing like
hip hop and rap beats, or have we kind
of strayed away from that anchor music?
Stephen Ddungu: Uh, no, I think it's, I
think there's always gonna be a, I think
there's always gonna be a space for it,
especially now solely because of the film
industry, because the film industry still
uses classical music in their film school.
There's a lot of like neoclassical
music in film school music that kind
of like, makes its way into musicals
and then, you know, that's what
people are, you know, it's, it's like
a timeless, it's a timeless genre.
And re very recently I've started
seeing a lot of, uh, um, rap music that
incorporates, um, classical instrumentals
and then puts like a hip hop beat over it.
And that actually does very well.
Usually like it's, you know,
like, like hip hop ballet.
Junae Benne: I think that's
where they would mostly.
Stephen Ddungu: Potentially, I haven't
actually, uh, heard of that, but, um, ah,
Junae Benne: yeah, it's a thing.
But like,
Stephen Ddungu: but yeah, no, like, um,
this, for example, um, a lot of, you know,
if I do listen to stuff like that, um,
instrumental wise, um, sometimes, like
on YouTube I see a lot of like popular
stuff, mainly like taking samples from
Tel, like the soundtrack from that.
Um, and, uh, absolutely some, yeah.
And, and, and sampling that.
And, uh, yeah, I feel like it's gonna
get a little bit more popular because
it's a, it's unique in the, in the,
um, homogeny of how hip hop sounds.
You know, hip hop doesn't, hip
hop is mainly beat focused,
obviously with like a bass, but,
uh, because there's a lot of that.
Um, my, uh, my, one of my
lecturers when I was doing music,
um, technology, um, said that.
The way music moves in
society is on a pendulum.
You know, like one, one thing is unique
and then it gets very popular and then
the pendulum swings over to something
else that's a little bit antithetical,
but it's, you know, now it's like a, you
know, now it's become the new niche and
then that becomes popular and then it
swings over here and it swings over there.
So as long as that's the case, which
is actually very true, um, that's why
like, you know, um, kind of all the
rock punk music kind of like makes its
way back into like more goth circles
of like, you know, of the today.
And, um, yeah, that, I think because
of that, pieces of music will always
find their way back in the limelight.
But in terms of classical music, because,
uh, because it's such a staple in the
media industry, just in general anyway,
um, I don't think it'll ever die, really.
Um, as long as it's.
Being used for films and soundtracks,
which people, you know, a lot of
people love it just in general.
Um, you know, Hanzi Mirror is very famous
for the inception soundtrack to this day.
Um, and the, and the Dark Knight
soundtrack, which a lot of people use as
like motivational work, workout music.
Did he also do
Junae Benne: Sonic,
didn't he do the Sonic?
Uh,
Stephen Ddungu: I don't, I don't think so.
I don't know.
I don't know if he did
the, Hey, just supposed
Junae Benne: to think of
something and I saw his name.
I was, and I was like, oh,
Stephen Ddungu: he might have, I, I, I
haven't, I haven't seen, he's compose,
I haven't seen, he's composed the
Sonic soundtrack, um, for, he's not
Junae Benne: him.
Hold on.
Let's, but I don't think it's, we gotta
Stephen Ddungu: look up.
I mean, he's in, I was looking
at something he's in, didn't
expect he's in Country Panda.
Didn't expect see
Junae Benne: him.
I didn't expect, expect
Stephen Ddungu: to see his name.
Junae Benne: Lion King.
Lion King.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
Junae Benne: No, no, no, no.
That's the old one.
Stephen Ddungu: The new one.
The live action.
Did you not propose for that?
Junae Benne: Yeah.
Is it?
Stephen Ddungu: Maybe?
No,
Junae Benne: I don't know, but
I know that he, let's not get
into it because Yeah, I'm wrong.
Let's not get into that
because I am completely wrong.
But, uh, yeah, so, you know, speaking
of, uh, music being a pendulum,
uh, now I can't stop looking it up.
Now I'm like, nah, I need to know.
No, no, no, no.
Cut it off.
Cut it off.
Okay.
So speaking of music, being a pendulum,
Fred Hammond was doing an interview,
um, with a standup comedian and
like he does other media called Kev
on stage, and he was talking about
how, um, gospel and r and b would
kind of borrow from each other.
So like, if there's less r and b, there's
gonna be less of that gospel, less of
like that modulation and stuff happening.
Um, which is kind of like
a thing that happened.
But I do think it's coming back.
Um, I think it's the same thing
that's happening with gaming because.
Making a game has become more
accessible and just like publishing
music has become more accessible.
Uh, there's so much stuff that people,
you know, can go a whole lifetime
without ever hearing or playing.
Um, so I do like to hear that,
you know, we will still be
influenced by like classical music.
And are people still
making classical music?
I know that's probably a crazy
question to ask because it has to
kind of be like classical rock, right?
Like it has to have been
around for some years.
Like, are people making new classical
music, like the Looney Tunes soundtrack,
like the Tom and Jerry soundtrack?
Like, are people doing that or
are they doing like renditions?
Like I just, I need to know, like
Stephen Ddungu: I, yeah, not,
they absolutely are, but the thing
about classical music is even,
it's gone for its own evolution.
So most people think classical music
is just, you know, this homogenous
sounding kind of, um, genre.
However, if you compare classical music
of today, which is near classical music,
so classical music back in the Baroque
times, it's very different in the way.
In, in just the musical movements,
the structure, um, the, the kind of
chords they use, um, is very different.
Um, back to how it used to be.
It act, it actually used to be very,
like, give an avid classical music
an example person name an artist
able to tell this case people wanna,
Junae Benne: in case people wanna
like listen to it, give us an example.
Stephen Ddungu: Like, um, so like if
you compare Mozart to a Han Zimmer,
for example, y even though they use the
same instruments, the techniques, the
musical techniques are vastly different.
Han Zimmer is more minimalist,
but in a more grandiose, um, way,
where like, whereas the same four
chords will be used as like Arif
and that's borrowed from, you know.
Kind of rock music or like, you
know, more, you know, popular music.
Um, so in a sense, um, classical music
ha uh, well near classical music has
specific, has adapted to the times with
the rise of pop music and more simpler,
um, ways of, um, structuring music.
Whereas back in the Barack ages or
back in, you know, when me are and
be, and were creating music, their
music would be way, way more dynamic
with different passages and different
acts even, um, in the same piece.
And hence why, you know, a
classic, a standard classical music
piece would be like 45 minutes.
Like if you look, if you listen to like,
enough's music, um, like that would be
a like almost an hour, an hour long.
Whereas, whereas classical music now has
kind of adapted to a more modern audience
that is used to listening to pop music.
Um, if you're listening to
most pop music, um, it's, it's
very centered around one key.
Um, and.
Usually, um, it modulates just
off that one key, similar to Neo
most neoclassical music of today.
And, um, you hear that even in
game game music, in film music,
um, specifically of the today.
And, um, that's how it's evolved.
But, um, and that's why classical
music, I don't think rule really die
because it's like a unique sounding
thing that can be a, that can be, um,
adapted to the modern, to any, well,
I personally believe any age really.
Um, because just as we were talking
earlier, just that's the fact that it
can be like a beat can be thrown over it.
And then now that's like a, you know,
like a yeah, a pop, classical music beat.
Um, they even did that in
the mouse Morales games.
Um.
What they did is exactly that actually.
And, um, it's, it's kind
of like its own thing.
And a lot of people like the soundtrack
from that, um, gives it like a, its
own unique spin on something that
is quite homogenous in of itself,
instrumentally wise, um, like, you know,
uh, like rap music and that sort stuff
since most of the, um, most of the.
I guess the creativity in the music
is more like in the, um, lyricism and
the, the rhyme schemes and the cadences
and et cetera, like the stuff in that.
Um, so yeah, I think it always
has its place and the people are
definitely composing it still today
especially, but especially for films
and uh, that's where it sits most
famous for films for game music.
Junae Benne: Ooh, speaking of indie
games, this episode is brought to
you by the Project Apom Review that
is listed on my YouTube channel.
It's an RPG moba.
And can you play it by yourself?
Yeah, I couldn't, but you know,
that might be a skill issue.
Anyways, I don't wanna swell too
much or take up any more time.
Click on the link in the
description after the episode to
learn more about Project Apom.
And don't forget to follow Steven Deon Gu.
We cannot wait for his
music theory video game.
Okay, back to you guys.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
I, in, in the act of producing
this game, I have an audio
person and he's really great.
Um, because, uh, he kind of
understands what I'm saying, even
when I don't, because you know,
I know, I just know what I like.
And I, we were going through
some songs and I was telling
him about the bug snacks.
I don't know if you've heard of bug snacks
or even played it, but it's a game that
was released 2021 and it's by two horses.
I really gotta get better at my names.
And, uh, it's, it's about,
uh, you're like a grumble.
It's kinda like a Muppet.
'cause they're like kind of
fuzzy and you're on an island
and every time you eat.
A bug snack, you turn into it.
So there's like a strawberry bug snack.
And so like your arm will turn into
like a strawberry or something.
And I really like the soundtrack, like,
and the, the game is kind of like baby's
first horror game or like thriller, um,
'cause it's not very scary, but think
like Billy and Mandy, but less, you know.
So, um, I just really liked the song
and so when he was going through it
and kind of like asking questions, he
was like, what does this feel like?
And I was like, whoa, okay, well
like, let me think about it.
Like, let me think about
why I really like it.
'cause the song, the game puts you
at ease and then something freaky
happens and then you're like, what?
You know?
And so I really like
that portion of about it.
And so it's pretty cool.
Like.
To see music in a way, especially
with sort of symphony, right?
Where you're like, it's, it's,
it's to set like the tone and to
have you to be imaginative and
really immersed in the feelings.
Like, yes, we know when we're watching
a movie, you know, a crescendo
happens, we're all like, oh my gosh.
Or like, you know, it gets dis
suspenseful and things like that.
Uh, but, you know, for like, your game
to, to, because if this is something
that you've always wanted, right?
You like, when, like for you,
you said that, um, music is kind
of like reading a book, right?
It's gonna take you somewhere else.
It's gonna have you feel these, um,
emotions and imagine these things.
And I think that's really amazing.
And so for you to like, give us a
piece of that, um, to experience
it in sort of symphony or, um, you
know, even in, in this other game.
That, that has no name right?
This, uh, the game is
what I'm gonna call it.
Right?
No copyright intended with the rapper.
But, uh, this other game that
you have, it's pretty cool to
like listen to the music and see
that it's a very big part of it.
Uh, and I, I am, I miss kind of
like the cartoons where it was just
kind of all music and there wasn't
like a lot of dialogue because
you kind of had to follow along.
You did have a visual aspect of it.
Right.
Um, and you did kind of just have
to follow along and really feel that
music and really feel like what the
characters were feeling through it.
Um, even in like later shows like
Dexter's Laboratory or laboratory,
they sometimes didn't use like
any sound unless he was like him
scuffling across his floor, you know?
Or sometimes they would have like a
minute or two with like no dialogue.
Um, and then just being in
that ambiance is really cool.
So that's why I'm really excited for, uh,
sort of Symphony and the game that you
actually just, when did you release that?
Was that the,
Stephen Ddungu: that was
like five to six days ago.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Mm-hmm.
So like the ninth?
The ninth or, yeah, round about the
ninth or the 10th or the 8th of January.
Okay, great.
Stephen Ddungu: Something around there.
I remember it was like very late in the
night when I, so it was like between the
two days of like the ninth of the 10th.
It was like the nine point
fifth, 9.5 outta 10th of January.
I uploaded that.
Okay.
Junae Benne: Okay, cool.
Yeah.
You know, in watch, in watching
that trailer and we were talking
about, uh, you know, the words
kind of being also interactive.
They're not just there for reading.
Um, and I think it goes very quick.
I'm really excited to, I'm really
excited to play it and see, like,
the game kind of feels like QuickTime
events with you, like reading and then
having to like, kind of interact with
the words it feels, it feels like a
QuickTime events, which you said that
there's gonna be different parts to it.
Um, so I can't wait to see kind
like how it all fits together.
I'm, I'm a fan of like a, a collage.
I don't know if you ever watch
Bob's Burgers, but Bob's and every
cartoon does this where they have
different art styles, like for the
different scenes and stuff like that.
Or, you know, the
Spider-Man movie did that.
I don't even remember how many, uh,
Stephen Ddungu: yeah,
actually, yeah, yeah.
Junae Benne: People contributed to it.
It was, it was like a lot of
artists and I was really impressed.
I really like stuff like that.
And so when I get a version of that,
especially like for different games,
game mechanics and things like
that, I like it 'cause it feels like
you can have it all, you know, you
can have it all in this one game.
Um, back when, you know, games were
bought in a different, in a different way.
I used to buy three games, right?
I used to have like, my long-term game and
then like, um, my like Replayability game.
So like, maybe like a fighting game.
So it'd be like a story, a fighting
game, and then like an arcade game.
And I'm really excited because it seems
like the game that you've created, um.
Does that.
And I'm also really excited for
sort of Symphony because I've never
been a fan of like Kingdom Hearts,
which y'all please don't stop listening.
Just 'cause you heard that.
I just wanted to be honest.
I don't think there's
anything wrong with it.
I think simple and clean is a banger.
And I also, um,
Stephen Ddungu: a part of
my soldiers died right now.
Face my
Junae Benne: fears.
What'd you say?
Stephen Ddungu: I'm
leaving this, I'm leaving.
Don't,
Junae Benne: don't go.
Yeah.
Don't go.
Like, I think it's cool.
I just, uh, I wasn't gaming when it
came out, and so when like three came
out, I know Nick and the most fans
Stephen Ddungu: watching
now converter don't worry.
Junae Benne: You know?
Hopefully, hopefully we'll see.
I, you know, and then for me just
to like jump in at three, I felt
like, I know a lot of people did,
but you know, I felt like a little
bit like a poser, but face my fears.
I used to sing that all the time.
I was like, this is such a banger.
Um, you know, so I think this
could, this is like my, just
play the game to that community.
Hmm.
Stephen Ddungu: Did you play the game?
Junae Benne: I'll see about it.
I can try to play.
It just seems really long.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah, no, it's,
it's uh, when you get to P five, 8.2
days, just get, just get a napkin.
You, me crying a lot.
Junae Benne: Really?
Stephen Ddungu: Not that lie.
Not that I cried
obviously, but No, no, you
Junae Benne: didn't.
But I definitely will.
Stephen Ddungu: Oh,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Of, yes.
Junae Benne: Yeah, I will.
I'll, I'll see, I'll see about it.
I just, when there's like a lot of
hype around games, um, I kind of
take it back, take back from it.
And I'm not saying that it
didn't deserve the hype.
Okay.
Because I did that with Spider-Man too.
I really, really wanted
to play Spider-Man.
And they came out like same time, right?
Like, I feel like that was
around the same, same time.
And I really wanted to play,
but there was like so much,
and I really love Spider-Man.
Like I went to Disneyland in Paris
and I was like, spidery, like I was
yelling and like, you know, French
people were like, what's wrong with her?
It's just a guy.
And I was like, surprise.
And he like waved and did the Web
swinger thing and I watched it.
But, um, you know, I
really love Spider-Man.
And so like, I just have to catch
up on those games because there
was so much around it that like, I
didn't wanna get sick of it, right?
Because I didn't wanna play
it and then hear about it.
And then maybe I'm online and
then there's like a spoiler.
And I mean, you can't really
spoil Spider-Man like he
wins, you know what I mean?
Um, but there, like I've kind of avoided.
A lot of like the game play and
even for like the Miles Morales
one too, like all these years.
So like, I can play it by myself
'cause I, I just really like
it and I really wanna enjoy it.
And so, um, yeah.
Kingdom Hearts maybe 'cause
Toy Story will get me right?
Like if you Yeah, that's in, that's
int math, like Toy Story will get me.
So that's why I'm kind of
like, well, can I just, and the
way that demo graphics, like,
Stephen Ddungu: it's like
proper, like it looks like it
would've been in the film, so
Junae Benne: Wow.
It's, if you, okay,
Stephen Ddungu: if you go
through that, it's almost as
if you are literally playing.
Oh, like the movie effectively.
Junae Benne: Well, that's
all you had to say.
No one's ever said that.
Stephen Ddungu: No, look at that.
Nobody
Junae Benne: has ever said that.
Like, that's all you had to say.
Mission accomplished,
Stephen Ddungu: guys.
Junae Benne: You know,
I'm gonna get to it.
So yeah, play a little bit of that.
I, I always liked the jokes.
I always thought they
were kind of funny, right?
The Kingdom of Heart jokes
that everyone makes about like
Donald and stuff like that.
Um, so yeah, and I do love Goofy,
like I love Disney, but I was like,
kingdom Heart just seems like a lot.
And why is this guy, you know what I mean?
With a 27 inch bust down, why is he
so angry, like with the middle part?
Like why is he so upset?
So, um, to each his own, for sure.
For sure.
But I wanna ask some questions
from the law perspective.
You know, your law background of your
legal background, of course perspective.
So right now you, you're pro,
you're producing two games or.
Are you producing one game or do
we not have an answer for that?
Stephen Ddungu: Well, I produced,
I've been, well I'm producing
one game, but I produced a game
while I was making that one game.
Junae Benne: Correct.
Which is obviously,
Stephen Ddungu: you know, the game.
Junae Benne: The game.
Okay.
So we have two games.
We have a reveal trailer that came out
five, six days ago, and then we have
sort of symphony that's taking its
time because it's gonna get the love,
care, and attention that it's making.
So with you being an indie
developer, solo, indie developer
mm-hmm.
And the current state
of the industry, right.
With the layoffs, I, I've lost count,
um, with how many layoffs there are,
excuse me.
And how many.
Studio closures.
There have been, and as a journalist,
I'm noticing it right, because honestly,
there's always been a shortage of,
like, journalism, there's always been a
shortage of like social media managers,
community developers, but now there's
like a shortage, like short, like, you
know, people who are getting it, um,
qa, narrative design, things like that.
So, but there's, you know, we're losing
a lot of indie developer studios.
I am not sure if we're
losing a lot of indie games.
Um, so that's gonna be one question
right there, is, is it still possible
for these studios to make a game
depending on the general contracts
that they have with the bigger studios?
And, um, two, how is it.
Being an indie developer in this
current climate, like you have a game
that has so much hype, um, that I
think, you know, you would do well.
You're already doing
well, like by yourself.
But let's start with the
first question and then
we'll talk to that one
because that one more loaded
I have like, but yeah.
So can we, with the indie developer
stu, with the Stu Indie studios
that we've lost, is it possible
that they can still release those
games or just knowing what you know?
Or do you think it's just, um, like,
we'll never see those games and
those people have to make a, like
a new game that's maybe kind of,
are they even allowed to do that?
Are you even allowed to make a
doppelganger or like a parody or
like a cousin of a game that you were
making with like a bigger studio?
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah, it's very, I
mean, it's very case by case basis
because different studios will have
different contracts with different,
um, partners, uh, if you will.
Um, and most of them will probably
have non-compete clauses, um, that
do not allow you to work on anything
else, um, or at least require you to
work on the game as first priority.
Um, but non-compete
clauses are very common.
Um, so you can't work on anything
else while you are working on the game
that probably would compete with that,
or just in general, like if you are
working on anything else that is not of
commercial value, um, you can't do that
while working on the specific project
that you're contracted, um, to do so.
Um, so if, uh.
If a studio has that kind of, um, clause
in their contracts, then obviously they
can't work on, you know, no cousins.
It's gonna be a very small family.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
Stephen Ddungu: Uh,
yeah.
So then it's, it's gonna be
an early child situation.
And, um, in terms of, uh, games be
still being able to be released in
the current indie space, um, it will
depend on the faith that the investors
or the, um, game, uh, publishers
have in the success of the project.
And, um, most clo, most, um, most
contracts will have it so that the
studio, um, not the studio, the partner,
um, whether it be like either the
big company or whatever, um, or the
investor, whatever's providing the
financing, uh, most contracts will
have it so that they can end the deal.
Um, and it's up to their discretion.
Obviously provided, you know, they give
reason, but even if they, they might
not even, um, need to give a reason.
It completely depends on the contract.
And, um, with that, if they see little
faith in it, um, they could, that
probably could be one of the things,
um, triggering the, a lot of the layoffs
happening so quickly, to be honest.
Um, since not that much really is in the
way of them being able to drop a studio.
Um, and also, um, yeah, so in terms
of, uh, but then there will be also
surviving clauses in contracts.
So if a. If a contract ends, there's
typically a section in a contract that,
you know, has, it's either a section
or it will be specifically in certain
clauses where it will stipulate that,
um, certain, um, that clause will
survive the termination of the contract.
But usually there's a, there's a
section that stipulates, um, the parts
of the contract that will continue
in perpetuity after the, um, either
the, um, cancellation or the, um, the
termination, uh, of that contract.
And, uh, oftentimes it will
include, um, you know, uh,
I don't, it, it's not often that
it includes as non-compete, because
then that's, that's a little
bit, you know, overreaching.
Um, okay.
And it's generally not good
business practice to do that.
Um, but, uh.
Like some things will stay in there.
Maybe like, you know, if you do end up,
uh, if the studio does end up working on
the, um, project alone or self-funding
it, um, they could, they could still be
entitled to whatever revenue they make
out of the project and it would still, um,
be a, like you proportional to the amount
they make of, in terms of the percentages.
Um, like I've, you know, seen contracts.
'cause when I studied law, um, we
would, um, we studied different
agreements in different industries
and the ones that I picked are the
music and the game industry that has a
lot of very, very stark similarities.
In fact, they're like, some of
the contracts were even identical,
um, in terms of structure.
And, um, yeah, you'll see that quite
often sometimes, um, that the revenue
share will still be there because,
I mean, to a degree they have still
invested, um, into the project.
So they'll, they'll still
want the return if it happens.
So they, if so, because
of that, they would.
Pull it in the contract that that is
the case, or at the very least that
they get the amount that they, um,
invested, um, back somehow the principle.
So, um,
Junae Benne: so,
okay.
Ooh.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
And then, and then there's, and then
there's also things like, um, you know,
whether they're allowed to, um, negotiate
well, there's also right of first refusal,
um, which is basically, um, where if
you, if you have another project, you
have to negotiate with, um, the person
who you're contracted with first, um,
to see if, you know, they would take it.
Um, they have to be first.
Um, they have to, that's why it's
called write first refusal, because
they have to refuse first, um, for
you to then negotiate with others
and, you know, that sort of stuff.
So that's, I've seen that a lot in,
uh, I've seen that a lot as well.
Um, personally, I'm not a fan of that.
I mean, no one is, but, uh,
yeah, it's in there, um, as well.
Um, to ensure, well, I, I imagine it's
to ensure longevity, obviously, but,
um, yeah, that's something that studios
may, so if they wanna make any cousins,
for example, you know, grow that family,
then uh, yeah, they're gonna have to,
um, stay faithful to the, uh, the, um,
the partner that they started with.
Junae Benne: So what happens,
which obviously has its
Stephen Ddungu: place like,
but uh, obviously in like,
you know, gaming contracts.
Yeah.
You don't wanna do that.
Junae Benne: Let's say that there's
an indie studio that's just doing
really, really well and, um, somebody
wants to acquire that indie studio.
How can an indie IP protect
itself while getting the help
or the boost that it needs?
Or should it just stay independent?
Like for, for, uh, like what,
like, can they protect themselves?
How, or should they just be like, no,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my own thing.
Stephen Ddungu: So, uh,
on the topic of licensing,
but in terms of, um, for any, um, indie
studio, um, when it comes to partnering
with any kind of partner, whether it be
a publisher or an investor or a company,
um, you know, one of the things you
wanna stay true to, if you do want to
protect yourself as much as possible,
is obviously look at protecting your ip.
Make sure there's nothing in there that
relinquish, uh, any authority over that.
Then you wanna look into,
um, licensing powers.
A lot of publishers especially, and they
need the licensing powers because they,
your publisher, they need to, you know,
be able to, um, uh, have, you know, if
it's, for example, Xbox, Xbox Game Pass,
um, or if it's just like, you know,
different things, your publisher will be
basically responsible for managing that.
So you will see that they
will want to handle that.
Um, however, do make sure
that you have the final say.
Um, that's how you protect yourself,
um, when it comes to that department.
Or if you actually want to just,
you know, still be in control
of as much things as possible.
You know, being, you know, and,
and to have like the same amount
of, um, administrative privileges
that you would have if you were,
um, indie, like solo completely.
Then at least have the final say
for the, for the, um, uh, licensing.
Um, and then when it comes to stuff
like, um, well those two are mainly
the main things in terms of like IP
and like where it goes and et cetera.
But yeah, the things that I mentioned
before, like, uh, manifest, refusal,
um, non-compete, um, those things are
things that, you know, you will have
to look at your own ambitions, um,
in the partnerships that you go into
and decide for yourself how much, um,
control or, um, well freedom if you will.
Um, you relinquish, um, also the, um.
The, um, IP itself, like the
creative freedom over it, um, the
approval process of each milestone.
Um, you'll want to have that
as flexible as possible.
Um, so try to negotiate something
that is in your favor, because at
the end of the day, it's not the
publisher that's developing the game.
It's you that's developing the
game, and therefore only you really
know how long, um, you can work on
it and the circumstances, um, that
you'll be facing along the way.
And thus, what is required and
how long each requirement takes to
complete, which just to make sure
that, um, you're honest with your terms
and you engage in the negotiation.
Like they might send you a, a term sheet,
but it's, that's part of the negotiation.
You need to put your terms in there
and, um, yeah, be aware that, um, if
you sign with a publisher, there is
a revenue agreement in which they.
We usually, um, recoup more than
you recoup for a time period
before it flips in your favor.
Um, which is often the release window.
Um, they don't design it to be like that,
um, but it's the buy that way naturally.
So if you are a whole studio, um, be
prepared that you might not get as
much money as the project makes if
you sign with like a publisher who
invests a great deal in your project.
Um, so negotiate around those, wrap
that revenue sheet so that you still
get something that's advantageous to
you, um, in the long run because they
will at first, or um, suggest something
that is in their favor, uh, most
of the time, uh, so that they make.
Their, um, well, their
principle back plus the profits.
Um, it's up to you always
remember that it's completely up.
They will not do things
in your favor for you.
You have to do it, you know, so that's
basically just the gist of it really.
Um, that goes with everything, even what
terms in the, in any contract, survive
the end and termination of the contract.
Um, be sure to see if that's the case.
And also, um, they do also, um,
in terms of, uh, information about
your relationship with them that
you want to publicize or just
talking about the game in general.
Larger projects will typically
want to control the release of
any information about the project
that they're working on you with.
So just make sure that, um, I. You
can still be able to speak about your
projects, but if it's something about
the specific re the, so the relationship
between you and them, um, you know,
make sure that those two things
remain kind of separate so you can
still update people who ask about it.
Um, yeah, just like it's all
following the same theme, really.
Like once you have the mindset of, um,
just, you know, go in and make sure that
there are terms in there that don't screw
you over too much, you'll start noticing
in each contract, um, terms that will
be like, oh, that's a bit overreaching.
And, um, yeah.
And also with the licensing thing, um,
I forgot to mention, or I think I, we
did, I did mention it, but I think it
wasn't included that you need to have the
final say because they will, a publisher
will want and need, um, licensing
rights, um, to do his job basically.
However, you will need the
final say on who, um, what.
What comes of that basically.
But yeah, um, that's basically the
main, the main things to look out for.
There's obviously more depends contract
to contract, but those are the main
things that I've seen most time, most, um,
often, you know, throughout me studying
this kind of stuff in the university.
And also, uh, when I was offered,
uh, deals, um, during the late 2021
when I was offered a lot of well
publishing deals for sort of symphony.
Junae Benne: Woo.
That's really good advice.
Um, we're definitely gonna have to clip
that, send that out to the masses so
they know that you're not only a musical
genius, but you're also, um, pretty
knowledgeable when it comes to the law.
So if that is how you can protect
yourself as an ip, do you think.
If you have to go through
all of that, right?
Somebody who doesn't know, and this
current climate of what the gaming
industry is like, um, do you think it's
worth it to try to look for a publisher?
Uh,
Stephen Ddungu: well, if you,
no, if you don't need one.
So when I say you don't need one, I
mean, if you are capable to finance
yourself, maybe you're not financing
yourself currently, but you have the
possibility to maybe you've grown
like a community in which you can,
um, do things on the site to monetize
your progression of your project.
Um, so for example, with me, it's
Patreon, um, and also, um, you know,
diversify a little bit as well.
Um, if you're able to do that
in ways in which you can.
Fund yourself, and you also have all
the manpower to create the project.
Um, or if you're like me, a solo dev, um,
I do, just in the fact that I know how to
do all the things that I need to work on
the game, then you realistically don't.
And also, um, marketing as well.
If you have a strategy that works,
um, or strategies that you will try
out which you project to work, um,
like I do, then you don't really need
a publisher because a publisher is
only really important in those areas.
Finance, outreach, and manpower,
which ties into finance.
Um, and I would recommend that if
you don't need one, you don't go
with one, because at that point
you are going to then just be, um.
Offloading a bunch of the profits
that you would really, you
know, be, um, rightfully yours.
Um, seeing how if you partnered with a
publisher, they wouldn't really be doing
anything that you are not already doing.
Because you see, the thing about
publishers is they mainly, they
mainly actually want to sign with
people who, or studios who kind
of already have it figured out.
Um, that way it's the least risk.
I mean, I get it.
'cause obviously it's the least risk.
Um, it's a good business standpoint.
And, um, they just off, they offer
small things and then they beef
them up and be like, yeah, yeah,
we could really help you with this.
And all sort of stuff
like localization and, um.
Which is fine if you need those
things, but, um, ra very rarely
publishers will reach out.
'cause I have a lot of
friends in the industry.
Uh, uh, many of them are solo devs and,
um, they have promising projects, but they
don't get publishers reaching out to them.
'cause that's the thing
publishers will often reach.
They have whole a and r
departments to reach out to you.
They don't, it's never,
it's never really the case.
Or, I mean, I at least, I don't know.
'cause that's never, I've never really
had to do it the other way around.
But I've never really
seen out to you, um, or.
No, no, I've, they've all, like, they've,
they've almost reached out to me.
They, oh my gosh, they've almost,
they've almost reached out to me.
Okay.
But, um, I've never had it the other
way around where I've had to reach
out to them because they're not,
that's, that's not really how they
choose their who, their partners.
They are the ones who go out and
they decide who they want to pick.
So with that being said, they are always
looking for people who kind of have
it already figured out on their own,
because it's the least risk to invest in.
So if, but the thing with that is if
that's the case with you and you generally
have it all figured out yourself, then.
It's kind of a disadvantage to you
if you, um, sign with a publisher
unless you really need something
that they offer that you don't have.
Um, like for example, if there's
no way you can access localization
for some reason and the publisher's
offering localization, then
okay, sign with that publisher.
Get the localization, negotiate terms
that are fed, um, according to what,
you know, the one thing that they're
offering obviously don't make the
revenue split like so in their favor
if they're only offering localization,
but then you just sign up the publisher
to, um, to get that localization.
But if you are capable of doing
that too, which you probably would,
if like you're already getting a
lot of traction, like you've got a
community, you know, et cetera, um,
you are able to, you have connections.
Um, then since the publisher isn't
really doing anything, you are, they're
kind of just taking revenue that they
didn't really even provide value to
earn if they, if you sign with them.
So yeah, only really sign with a publisher
if you need it and don't just do it.
Um, and also.
If you, if you're thinking about, you
know, signing it because you need, you
want, you know, the money or the financial
and sort of stuff, always asking yourself,
can I actually get that myself first?
Um, it's tempting because they do
offer quite a lot of money, but,
um, and it's very something you
see all there zeros that could
possibly be in your bank account.
Like, uh, it's very, it will
obviously lighten a lot of the
load, but it's a double-edged sword.
It's like a, you know, there's, it
comes with the, the light comes with the
dark, um, and the dark obviously is the
amount that they'll be expecting back.
And obviously all the terms and the
contracts that may not be in your
favor that they'll add in there.
Um, that will probably be, that
is, you know, commonplace for all
publisher, even investor contracts.
So
Junae Benne: with
Stephen Ddungu: a point
it's not really worth it.
Junae Benne: What you're talking about,
the investor side of it, what happens
if you just don't meet those terms?
Like what happens if like, you know,
the game is really promising and then.
Whether it's the studio's fault
or it's the publisher's fault,
but it just doesn't do as well.
Like what happens with all,
like the money promised?
Like do, are they just kinda like,
great, you're indebted to me forever.
And like, is it kinda like albums
where you have to make four or
five albums for the publisher until
you're like released from a contract?
Or will they just like drop
you and like keep your ip?
Like what's the collateral damage
Stephen Ddungu: They'll usually
say so in the contract, um,
everything that happens with that.
Um, the thing about the contract
is that it's supposed to
outline, you know, those things.
So one thing that I see
most of the time is that.
Um, any revenue connected to the game
that you get, um, goes to them and
any, any money that you make from
maybe other partnerships that you
make with that also has to go to them
and, and, and it's counted as revenue.
That's usually what I, um, you know,
see a lot, um, that I've seen a lot
in the term sheets, um, or the, um,
publishers that reached out to me.
And also, um, just, uh, studying this
in, uh, like when I was studying law
and university in general, though,
I'm mostly referencing from when I was
studying, um, law and university since,
um, you know, we kind of took a look at
these contracts and were able to see for
ourselves, um, like how it's structured.
So I can definitely confirm that
it's like, it's similar, um, since,
you know, these are publishing
companies and I studied publishing
companies, so, um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, it depends on, it's, it's case by
case, but most likely, um, it'll be a case
where any money your company makes, um.
Will, you'll, you'll probably either
have a, um, payback schedule scheme
somehow, or any money that you make
that is connected to that project
will just have to go to them.
Um, yeah, pretty much.
I mean, usually the latter is, uh, usually
the latter is most favorable because then
it's like, oh, they just have to wait
until it, until, you know, they get their
money really, um, from that project.
Um, but, you know, some do, some are like,
oh no, well we wanna make this amount by
this date and then this amount by this
date, and then if not, then you know, a
negotiation can happen where, um, they
figure out a kind of schedule, um, to
make that a, make the principal back.
Um, 'cause they usually, typically.
Really want the principle back
at, at least because that's the
investment in the first place.
So then it's not like a
complete loss on their side.
And then, you know, if you know the
expected profit isn't met, then it's just
a matter of they have to wait for it.
But yeah, that's typically,
that's usually common.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Wow.
Once again, this is not legal advice.
I mean,
Stephen Ddungu: it isn't, but it is, it's
like, I mean, I, I studied this because
obviously I'd studied law, so I mean,
it is the truth, but I, I just don't
have a, the truth, I just don't have a
fancy certificate saying I am a lawyer.
That's literally the only difference.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Let's get back to the artist side.
You said something really
interesting earlier.
I'm not an artist myself, but after
befriending them and, you know,
listening in on some, the, some of the
artist community conversations, I hear
a lot that like, drawing hands is the
worst, but for you, that's one of like.
Your better parts, but you actually
don't like to draw noses too much.
Yeah.
How did
that happen?
Like every artist that I'm like,
you know, most of the time they're
like, oh man, hands are bad.
Hands are the worst.
Like, hands look funny.
Like, you know, I'm just gonna do
this for the hands or something else.
You're like, no, that part's great.
So the noses that that
trip you up, how come?
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah.
Well, I mean, first of all, the way
I draw, I don't draw like super uber
photorealistic, so I do cut a lot
of corners when I'm drawing hands.
Ah.
Um, so it kind of makes my job easier.
That's probably why I like
hands, but with noses, um, yeah,
it's, it's very finicky for me.
Like it's, it's one thing that you kind of
have no choice but to kind of get right.
Even if you are cutting corners.
So yeah, like a bad nose will
just look very, very noticeable.
Um, maybe, yeah.
Way like a finger.
You can get away with like a finger just,
you know, slightly kind of like, you know,
it's just a hand but a nose on their face.
Yeah.
That's, no one's getting past that.
Like, if, if the nose looks funny,
especially if you're doing like, art
that is like a fan art of like something,
and then it's like, it looks a certain
way that that nose will really change
the entire, the entire character.
So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, I, I just try
and I, I, you know, cut as many corners
as possible when I'm drawing the, I just
kind of do the shadow underneath the,
um, the actual tip of the nose and then
just do like a line and then, and then,
well, sometimes if I'm feeling a little
optimistic, I'll actually, you know,
do like, you know, maybe like a little
curve to show like the actual, you know,
to show the actual depth of the notes.
But then that's like the
furthest I usually go.
But yeah, one day I'll,
I'll overcome that one day.
Just not yet, obviously,
because um, I think that's
Junae Benne: the cool part though.
'cause it's your piece, like
no one can tell you with that.
Your like character's nose,
it's supposed to look like,
you know, now Super Smash bros.
When they were making that hand come
through, I'm sure they had very, very
like, you know, strict and maybe a
bit a panic attack, but you know, um,
sort of symphony and the game, right?
The game, it's a good thing about the game
Stephen Ddungu: is that there's no faces.
If you've seen the Yeah, there's no,
there's no even, there's no faces.
So yeah, I'm just, that's heaven for me.
I don't have to even, don't even
have to even try and I can still
like, you know, put out something,
you know, without having to
worry about the nose or anything.
Or even hands, because I mean the hands,
yeah, but I'm already good with the way
I do hands currently, so that's, it just
utilizes all the things I'm currently
good at and then just completely ignores
the things that I'm not, which is a good
thing about having an art style, you know?
Um, if you have an art style and you hone
the things that you are already good at.
Um, wasn't it Bruce Lee that said,
you know, I fear the man who.
I do not fear the man who practices 100
punches once, but 100, or was it kicks,
100 kicks once, but one kick 100 times.
That's, yeah, that's what Bruce,
I believe that's what Bruce is.
I don't
Junae Benne: know if, I don't
know if it's Bruce Lee, but I,
yeah, I get the, I get the, yeah,
Stephen Ddungu: yeah, yeah.
So if you, if you, if I'm just
practicing all the other things that
I'm just good at, like to the point
where it's like, you know, world
renowned, then I may never have to
draw another nose everywhere again.
Junae Benne: That's a good point.
That's a good point.
So we are gonna wrap this up because
apparently we can sit here and talk
forever about law and about artists
and mastering skills, even though
you've literally been training
for this your whole life, right?
And then you've been able to add
on those skills one after another.
Is there anything that you wanna promote?
Do you wanna like wrap up the
game and sort of symphony and
say something about your Patreon?
Stephen Ddungu: Um, play
the game when it comes out.
Um, play sort of symphony when
it comes out and, uh, subscribe
to my Thank you very much.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Last time, I'm gonna ask
last time about the game.
So no matter how many speculations they
are online, because you know what it's
called in your head, like you made it
no matter how Yeah, I know exactly.
Yeah.
Like, are you never
gonna confirm like that?
Like someone got the title because
I talked to two people and I
got two different answers and I
was like, oh, these both could,
10 could potentially be right.
Are you just gonna be like,
it's just, it just, it like, how
are you gonna market that like.
Stephen Ddungu: Like, well, the good thing
about it is I kind of like, I was actually
going to reveal it because, um, the game
is chapter based and at the end of the
first chapter, um, 'cause the, the first
chapter is actually the second chapter.
Chapter zero is the first chapter.
So at the end of the first chapter,
which is chapter two, um, the game,
the name of the game was going
to be like, revealed because it's
actually relevant to the story why
the name of the game was revealed.
Then, however, I kind of like
how it looks, you know, I just
kind of like how it looks.
And also it reminds me of, um, when
I'm on Twitter and then I see like
this, or like on Instagram and then I
see this really, really skilled like
Japanese artist or like Chinese artist,
and I'm like, damn, I really wanna
like, you know, see your stuff again.
But I, there's no way I'm ever
typing your name in, like, I,
so like, I have to follow you.
I just have to subscribe.
Maybe that's one of the reasons
why like, it's got, I think it's
almost got like 30 K subscribers,
like in like less than a week now.
Probably the feeling is mutual and
uh, I like that, but also it just
looks, it looks cool as well, you
know, I mean, uh, a lot of people are
commenting that it kind of, you know,
the name took them by surprise alone
and that's what got them intrigued.
And, um, yeah, as I, like, I had known
the name of the game, but I've had the,
I've had the title look like that for the
longest time, so it's kind of grown on
me, like when I see the actual name of the
game, like it kind of just feels like, oh,
like, you know, it's, doesn't really even
feel like the name of the game anymore.
It feels like this code thing feels more
like, you know, the name of the game.
Like it's really identified
with the project.
So
Junae Benne: yeah.
Okay.
What's the game coming out?
'cause I have another question.
What's the game coming out?
Do we have a timeframe?
Stephen Ddungu: Mm. It'll come out when
it comes out, but fortunately it's,
Junae Benne: oh, this guy.
The name
Stephen Ddungu: is the
Junae Benne: name.
It'll come out when it comes out.
Like
Stephen Ddungu: indeed.
It really is like that.
Yeah.
That's how it is.
That's life.
Okay.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Can you give us an exclusive and
tell us the name of the game?
Stephen Ddungu: No.
Junae Benne: Or a hint?
Like something,
Stephen Ddungu: uh,
no, other than the fact that,
uh, it's got the letter X in
it, it's got the letter X in it.
That's your only hint.
I
Junae Benne: mean, no, but
we know that already, like,
Stephen Ddungu: yeah, but you know,
technically it's the algebra and I,
Junae Benne: and I buy a
valve actually meant to be an
Stephen Ddungu: ex
Junae Benne: like.
Stephen Ddungu: Hmm.
Junae Benne: Can I buy a vow?
Like, can I like
Stephen Ddungu: buy a vow?
Junae Benne: Yeah.
We'll afford it.
I cannot,
Stephen Ddungu: I cannot be bought.
Junae Benne: I love how that
turned into something else.
Okay.
Okay.
Because I'm like, let's just, okay,
we'll, we'll do hangman later.
We'll make a mini hangman.
We'll, we'll do that.
Maybe, maybe that, you know,
Stephen Ddungu: you know, the funniest
thing about it is when I actually rev,
when I actually made the YouTube for
it, I initially had the YouTube name
as the actual name of the project.
Really?
So only a very small handful of people
who have already deleted the comments.
I actually know the title of the game.
However, when I, when I was deleting
the comments, I left one or two
because I wanted, because then
now it actually feels like a guest
amongst all the other C of guesses.
So every, so now and again,
someone will actually like, guess
the name of the, the project will
be like, oh, it's called this.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
And
Stephen Ddungu: then I'll just be
like, oh, that's a very nice guess.
And then someone underneath it will
guess something different, not knowing
that that person actually got it right.
So
Junae Benne: yeah,
Stephen Ddungu: it's, it's
hidden in plain sight.
It's, it's buried.
That's a, that's a good thing about it.
Like even if someone actually guesses it,
it's just, it's it's, it's too late now.
It is too late.
Late.
Too late.
It's too late.
The truth will die with you.
And uh, and I might even change
the name like in my head, like
after that point anyway, so that
you could be wrong at any point.
Just like, as long as I am, as
long as I can arbitrarily do that.
Junae Benne: Yeah.
Stephen Ddungu: That's, it's so you're
just gonna have to, it is just gonna
have to be what it is right now.
That is okay.
The game.
The game.
Junae Benne: The game
Stephen Ddungu: is the game.
The game.
It is what?
It's
Junae Benne: the X game.
Well, too close to the
X Games game X. Right.
Game X. Game X. That's, let's
Stephen Ddungu: go.
We promote an Elon Musk.
Junae Benne: Oh wait, I forgot.
Forgot about that.
Yeah, no, I forgot about that.
Yeah, he's just gonna
have to take a back seat.
I don't know about that.
'cause it was Twitter.
Twitter in my head.
Well, Steven, thank you so much
for this very mysterious interview
where we've learned so much and
still nothing at the same time.
We've been through the whole spectrum.
Um, yeah, and thanks for joining us.
I can't wait to play Game
X and sort of symphony.
Um.
My last question for sort of Symphony,
since it's a very, it's like around like
the composition of like music, right?
Like, because you're saying it's
different from Hi-Fi Rush and like
another song that um, will like use
the beat to like go along with like
the attacks and things like that.
Do you think it would like teach anything?
Like would someone have a better
understanding of like an eight count
or like a four count or like any
other musical concepts or is it just
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah, in
fact that's literally the
tutorial section of the game.
Um, I've already shared this, actually.
I made a whole post about it.
But then as the tutorial of the game,
you play as Stefan, the main character
revising for his exams, um, the
following day in which, no, it's just
Junae Benne: your name
pronounced differently.
Stephen Ddungu: It's technically not.
'cause my name is Steven.
It's like a pH.
Stefan is like Ste.
EF with a Okay.
A with a. Have you ever
watched Family Matters
Junae Benne: with Urkel and he
would turn into like Stefan?
Stephen Ddungu: No.
Junae Benne: Oh, the, okay.
Yeah.
So in Family Matters, and this is for
everybody who's never seen it, um,
Jaleel White was Urkel, but he made
this machine and anytime he would
go into this machine, instead of
being like, um, Urkel, was it Steven?
Steven Urkel, uh, he
would end up being Stefan.
'cause now he's not like a nerd.
He was like, this really
like, attractive guy.
So that's why I thought it
was kind of interesting.
I was like, oh, it's just like your
name, but you said it's not so.
Okay, go ahead.
Stephen Ddungu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, um, he's revising for his exams.
And, um, in those exams you play as
him learning all the music theory
that you need to be able to, you know,
use it in your attacks and wield it.
So yeah, it's very, and also in
various instances in the game,
it will also remind you of those,
um, in a very story-like manner.
So it's not just gonna be contrived.
There's, there's gonna be characters
that may not know as much that you
also play as, and then that, that
character will explain it, like
it will make sense in the story.
Okay.
And four specific times though
you will need to do it, it's very
like woven into the story how you
will actually learn music theory.
But yeah, the game will actually teach
you music theory, like, oh, cool.
Proper teach.
So, yes.
Junae Benne: That's amazing.
I can just imagine your game
being played in classrooms, right?
Like
Stephen Ddungu: yeah, that'd be cool.
I've actually got, um, a, a few teachers
actually dms me, like, oh, like it would
be amazing if like sourcing people Yes.
Like, you know, it could be
played in school, et cetera.
We need this.
I was like, yeah, I got you.
Junae Benne: Nice.
That's amazing.
So is there ever gonna
be like multiplayer or
Stephen Ddungu: It could,
that's not how it's planned now.
It's supposed to be a single player
game, but it has potential to be
multiplayer possibly, um, be a bit well
for like school, but yeah, of course.
Um, it be bit difficult to implement,
but I believe it's possible.
So I think, um, when the,
when the time comes around to
consider it, I'll make it happen.
Junae Benne: Okay.
Cool.
Cool.
Well, once again.
We're gonna wrap it up
for real, for real Now.
No more questions.
Even though I tend to do that,
that's that good old Midwest
goodbye where I'm like, bye.
And then I'm like, oh yeah,
do you remember such and such?
Um, so yeah, we're gonna
wrap it up for real now.
Stephen, thanks so much for joining us
and I'll have Thank you for having me.
Of course.
Um, I've been following you for
a minute, so I'm not tripping.
It's been like years.
'cause I was like, wait, no.
Was it sooner?
And I just kind of binged all
your content, but I've slowly been
exposed to your content over like,
at the bare minimum two years.
So I'm really excited to have this
conversation and, um, I'm glad you
Stephen Ddungu: like my work.
Junae Benne: Yeah, it's pretty dope.
It's pretty dope.
And we, we didn't even get to really talk
about like the details of sort of symphony
that I've noticed, but it's just very.
All small things.
Um, so yeah, just thanks
so much for joining.
I really appreciate it.
And I'll have all of your links
attached to the podcast so
people can go and support you.
They can look at Game X, they can look
at sort of symphony and they can scroll
through the comments and try to guess.
And, um, you know, what's
the name of the game?
Stephen Ddungu: You get no rewards
if you get it right, by the way,
like there, there's no prizes.
So, uh, the prize of
Junae Benne: knowing knowledge, knowledge
is a prize, you know, in the, in this
day and age of, what do they call them?
Social media, um, detectives, like,
I think it's just a fun thing for
people to do, so I'm sure they'll,
somebody will do it, you know?
Um,
Stephen Ddungu: well, you are
free to, you're free to try.
Junae Benne: Okay.
This concludes another episode
of Gaming for the Culture.
Thank you so much for
watching, participating.
If you would like to ever at any point
ask our guests any questions, please join
the Patreon and you'll be able to submit
your questions and ask in real time.
Until next time, I'm Janae Benet.
Game safely.
Wash your hands, wash your
butt, clean your keyboard.
Clean your controllers, clean everything.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, until
next time, take it easy.
Stephen Ddungu: Wash your butt.
Junae Benne: Wash your butt.
That's the most important part.