Welcome to The 1909, the podcast that takes an in-depth look at The State News’ biggest stories of the week, while bringing in new perspectives from the reporters who wrote them.
It's Wednesday, February 5, and this is the nineteen o nine state news's weekly podcast featuring our reporters talking about the news. I'm your host, Alex Walters. This week, MSU athletics having all sorts of success, on the field, on the court. But off the field, off the court, something more troubling is brewing. So here to talk about it, this is a first for the nineteen o nine, we have the sports editor of the state news.
Alex:Do you wanna you're a first time guest. Do you wanna introduce yourself?
Satvik:Yeah. So, I'm Sadik Shivam, and I'm the sports editor for this semester. My previous beat was men's soccer, and I've been at the state news for, give or take, about seven or eight months.
Alex:So tell me about you know, this is the 09/02/2009. It's not sports roundtable, so we can't get too much into what's going on actually in the games. But give us a little bit of background for those that don't follow every sport closely about MSU Athletics, their actual kind of, like, competitive success this season, the sports going on right now.
Satvik:So, basically, what's been going on right now? Obviously, we know the most commercial sport for MSU is American football. That's without a doubt. But this season, the slightly smaller programs like gymnastics, hockey, men's basketball, women's basketball, they've been seeing incredible success on the road and at home. And the men's the men's basketball team is number one in the big in the big 10 currently, and the hockey team is doing is doing fantastic as well.
Satvik:And I think that's due to a massive reason as far as mentality goes, but as well as that, I think it's just a great spell of form as well as that. I think we were definitely succeeding in every single department right now. It's a very, very, very nice purple patch, I'd like to say. But yeah.
Alex:And is there a theory, you know, amongst those who follow this closely as to why MSU is having such a successful season? Is there something you can credit for that, or is it just sort of things coming together the right way?
Satvik:I think it's a it's a bit of both. I think, obviously, you gotta credit the you'll go you gotta credit the athletes with everything going on around them alongside the actual sporting side because I think being an MSU athlete, there's far more to be concerned about as well as just athletics. Whereas in other programs, it's just most of the time you're either focusing on sports may maybe mainly academics if that's like a backup option. But for MSU, the mental fortitude required for so many of these athletes has carried them forward. And I think since, obviously, the the the events in 2023, it's been very, very tough on all of these athletes, all of these coaches.
Satvik:And I think the fact they got through that with so much I'm not gonna say ease, but they got through that with so much, like, grace helped them to be where they are today. And that's a big aspect. Yeah.
Alex:And then the story that you wrote that you're here to talk about, I'd love to continue talking about how great things are for MSU athletics, but, you know, we've got a different topic today, is about so outside of that, in the the AD's office, the the the accounting of MSU athletics, not as much of a success story. You heard a story, this week about another one of these budget reports has come out for the athletics department. And despite the kind of success on the field, they're in another sort of very large budget deficit. And this has been going on for a number of years now. Talk me through, like, you know, in in a short and not financial terms as possible, I wanna know what is the, like, you know, financial health status of m f u MSU athletics.
Satvik:So here's the thing. So Detroit Free Press released an article sort of releasing all information from a FOIA act or freedom of I know you said no financial terms, but, technically, I mean, of Freedom of Information Act. And they released that. And this year was $16,000,000 in debt for the twenty twenty three, twenty four year. And I think the health status of it compared to other universities, I think it's relatively normal or average.
Satvik:But the number, I think, is a bit more blown out of proportion due to the other things surrounding this this debt. I don't think it's actually the debt that has people in uproar about the about about anything. So as things stand, I think it is a slight concern if you wanted to put, like, a term term on it.
Alex:And so what if it's not the debt that people should be concerned about, what have you found in this budget report that you think is concerning?
Satvik:Well, one thing that I definitely found was that the amount of debt is due to the plunging amount of donors to MSU. And I think digging a little bit deeper into that, I learned that it's far beyond a financial problem. It's far beyond a hierarchical problem as far as how the finances of the university are run. I think it's a lack of trust in the university. In whatever regard you wanna take that as far as, like, the athletic department, as far as, like, the the board of directors, I think people just don't want to to put their faith in MSU.
Satvik:Because when people donate to a university, it's almost like an investment. Obviously, it's not an investment where you're trying to get your money back. It's an investment of your own intellectual property. You're trying to get something back and make a name for yourself in a positive environment where MSU hasn't necessarily been able to provide that in the last few years. Well, I
Alex:have to think of, like, I I guess, kind of the biggest recent gift you have, what, like, 20 to I think 40,000,000 in gifts from two high profile billionaire MSU alums to that Tucker contract Yes. Which at the time, I think, was very exciting. We're exciting. We're getting this new coach, you know, $40,000,000 funding this, like, giant total hundred million dollar contract from these very generous donors. Obviously, that didn't age well, and that investment maybe became sort of a liability for them.
Alex:So you're saying that kind of with some of the scandal that's followed MSU athletics and just sort of the university overall, it's harder to get donors to kinda put their name on stuff?
Satvik:That and also, I think, in the last couple years, I think there's been an issue with MSU sort of raising their reputation. I think month after month, year after year, it just becomes an issue after another issue. And I think in order to build your reputation and get more donors, at the end of the day, it's about your profile. The higher profile you have and the higher reputation you have, the more people you're gonna have that wanna associate themselves with you. And I think, also, a big part of this that I definitely discovered in the in the in the report was that donations made to MSU back in the nineteen nineties and nineteen eighties were absolutely exceptional.
Satvik:There there were everyone was putting their name on different buildings. People were putting their name on fields. People were putting their name. Obviously, that's still happening now. But compared to the degree that it was happening way before before any of these scandals sort of surfaced, it really, really shows what a couple situations very serious situations can do to a university's entire die like, dialogue around it.
Alex:When you write in your story that, you know, the path to, like, creating a really, like, stable donor base that's gonna give money is actually success in, like, American football, which is kinda interesting because we just sit sat and talk about how successful all of MSU athletics are right now out of football season and basketball and hockey and all that and a lot of the nonrevenue sports, it sounds like, are doing very well. We can remember a not super exciting football season. I don't think fans were really into what was going on there. I mean, is that really the path to, like, getting donors back on board if, you know, soccer and hockey and basketball are good, but you need to have football for donors?
Satvik:I I think a %. I mean, it goes the same way for for example. Obviously, most universities in The US either prioritize basketball or football. It it really doesn't go you will rarely hear about a massive university that prioritizes another sport aside from those two. Whereas, I think the difference is in other countries, you'll see a prioritization of soccer or or or football, I guess, as it call as it's called over there massively.
Satvik:Same way over here. I think when the football program is not succeeding, a lot of the time, it's that's aligned with the success of the university, strangely enough. And, obviously, MSU is not making it consistently to the ball games. They're not consistently making it far in anything as far as football goes. And I think a scandal associated with football alongside low football performance is just a recipe for a calamity.
Satvik:I think that literally spells out financial Armageddon for MSU. I think their athletic board meeting must have looked crazy.
Alex:Well, it is kinda interesting. You know, we we at the state news, we followed everything at MSU very closely. Right? But I wonder the average MSU alum, how much of their kind of, like, image of how the university is doing is just associated with those, what, like, 10 games in the fall that they tune into and they root for their team. Yeah.
Alex:So that is interesting. And I wonder if that is what because, you know, it it it's crazy here how successful all these teams are right now in the winter despite, you know, kind of these plunging donations, maybe thanks to what was going on in the fall. And what about, you know, outside of just what the MSU administration isn't directly directly controlling with, like, the athletics, budget? There's this whole new thing now, right, with NIL. And I, as someone who, like, very casually follows sports, I'm not an expert on this.
Alex:I feel like everything I hear is NIL means this, NIL means that. I don't % understand it. Can you tell me a little bit about how you think is there an interplay between some of these budget issues inside MSU's administration and this whole new world of things people can give money to that's, like, going directly to players?
Satvik:Yeah. Certainly. And I think a big part of it is also things we don't know a lot alongside NL. As you said, like, you're not, like, fully tuned into NL. And, honestly, I don't think many people in the high in the hierarchy are either, to be completely honest.
Satvik:I think the name, image, and likeness of a player wasn't really brought into the light until recently. I mean, early two thousands, when when when MSU was successful, people didn't talk about players' media rights, and it just wasn't a concept to think about a player being paid for even playing sports, let alone making media appearances for these sports. Like, it's just college sports at the end of the day. Right? Like, that was their mentality.
Satvik:Like, who really cares? It's not it's not professional sports, quote, unquote. But now the players are gaining a sort of realization that we were pretty much exploited by this by these universities. We were used in interviews. We were used in social media.
Satvik:We were used by massive massive broadcasting companies playing. But what do we get in return for it realistically apart from just a little bit of publicity? And I think that is what people are beginning to realize. And I think as far as budget issues goes, I believe this was in this was earlier in November or October where people sort of started signing a petition to start suing, big corporations that broadcasted these players early in the in the in the February or mid two thousands. And, basically, what this made people realize is if every single NCAA player sued, it would be an absolute demolition of of the NCAA.
Satvik:And I think this caused a sort of uproar in the in the in the hierarchy as far as, like, the board goes. And they basically realized that we cannot let this happen because the current financial state that we're at right now, it's already it's already spelling not disaster, but it's already spelling a downturn in in success. So we cannot let the players realize that they basically deserve their name, image, and likeness to be theirs almost. I think it's a case of that.
Alex:Well, it's interesting that, like, if I am an alum and I wanna give a hundred dollars to, like, MSU sports, I can now kinda choose. Do I wanna give a hundred bucks to, some sort of, like, renovation to a stadium, something the university is doing? Or do I give it to one of these was it, like, Spartan dogs for life or one of these NIL collectives that's gonna put my money together and then try and entice some quarterback to transfer for some other school so, you know, he can get this giant sum of NAL money. It's just such a different world, I guess, for donors, and it's it's interesting to see how that's, you would think is having an effect on some of the donations directly to the university.
Satvik:%.
Alex:Yeah. Is there anything in this report you read in your reporting around it about does MSU have some sort of plan for how they wanna change this? Do they have a vision for the future, or are we in such a state of flux with all of this revenue sharing NIL stuff that it's not exactly clear what comes next?
Satvik:So there was no clear path that I could see as far as what MSU can do, but I obviously have, a plethora of theories as to what MSU should do as far as, like, a path forward. And number one, I I think the MSU's main source of revenue as far as sports goes is, as I as I as aforementioned, a winning football program. Mhmm. And while that may seem like a little thing, like, oh, you know, obviously, it's not a little thing, but while that may seem like a little thing, I was just one of the many sports programs. So if basketball is successful, why does football matter?
Satvik:If hockey is successful, why does football matter? Ticket sales, premium tickets, all of these things. I mean, just look at last semester, for example. The average attendance at Spartan Stadium was completely diabolical. And I think a big reason for that is it's just simply no one wants to go support a team that doesn't look like they wanna be out there
Alex:at
Satvik:the at the end of the day. And I think a big a big part of it part about that is when a when a team is winning, it builds enthusiasm for donors and fans and donors more importantly for the athletic department, but fans. Yeah. People want to invest their money in a team that they think are are going to improve. It's just it's just it's just what it is.
Satvik:And I think a lot of a lot of the time, they don't realize that that they're not gonna get donations regardless just because they're Michigan State University. They need to realize that that condition applies to them as well of them needing to be successful to get this investment.
Alex:Is this like a chicken and egg problem where to get donors into this, football is kind of the marquee sport to generate interest. But to build a great football program in today's environment, you need a bunch of money to do that. And so it's sort of like one, what comes first. Is that a question?
Satvik:That that is definitely one of the questions. But at the same time, I do think the budget allocation for MSU sports has been has been slightly mismanaged as far as improving different programs. I think they've done very well with sort of spreading it around and everything like that, but they need to realize that it's not gonna help them get out of the situation that they're in if they just continue going the way they're going as far as because at this rate, and I'm not saying this is going to happen, but at this rate, they may have to scrap certain programs. And, I mean, with the with the with the downturn that this is going at, I could definitely see slightly smaller programs that are successful as well getting getting the acts for completely no reason and no fault of their own.
Alex:Well, that's something that, you know, a couple years ago, I think we saw with Swim and Dive. I I did a story a few years ago about these depositions where you have Bill Beekman, the athletic director at the time, and Sam Stanley. They were talking in a title nine lawsuit about their decision making in 2020 to cut the Swim and Dive team. And they said that it came actually in 2019, and that what they were thinking is just that, like, the the facilities for Swim and Dive, the team was very successful. It was doing very well, and the scholarships to run it are actually not that expensive compared to other big sports.
Alex:But the facilities maintaining the pool was so expensive that they were just like, we have to cut this team even though it's successful. And I I recently, I was with the the new president of MSU, Kevin Guskowicz, doing an interview for the state news, and I asked him about this because one of these big swim and dive advocate types is now on the board. And I was curious because it's something you're revisiting. And his thought on it was that, like, the idea of adding a new team now with, you know, the threat of revenue sharing and just how much more complicated the financial system is for college athletics is way less likely than it was back in 2020 when the cut was made. And he was saying, if anything, what universities he was very cautious to say MSU isn't doing this, but what would hypothetically happen and what universities are currently doing is actually looking at cutting programs.
Alex:So I think you're right that that's, you know, more on the table maybe than it was five or ten years ago before the finances changed so much.
Satvik:Yeah. I I also I also think, obviously, that's, I I would say that's a last resort because it feels like that to us. But I don't think that is the last resort, to be honest. But, I think in order to get to that stage, it would have to be a completely catastrophic decline. But I think as far as financial recovery goes, it it does look relatively simple from our from our perspective, obviously.
Satvik:Like, you just have to allocate the income in different in different streams and and and things like that. But I think you have to just target the right audiences as far as sports programs goes go. Because I know I said football is by far the by far and away the biggest sport and can get you the most donations, but there is a way to get very, very lucrative donations in basketball and in hockey if you just target the right audiences and alumni for these programs, you can definitely get multimillion I mean, obviously, that's not gonna solve the problem, but you can get multimillion dollar donations for these slightly smaller programs just based on passion. And I know it's have
Alex:been big, in tennis, and I think women's soccer, there have been big donations the last couple years.
Satvik:Yes.
Alex:Yeah. And and and this is just, anecdotally, but I feel like I noticed a lot more interest these days in other sports and football people. I I know people who go to, like, a lot of soccer games. People are always going to hockey games with that team being so good. Maybe that is just a downstream effect of the football team not being that good, but maybe that does mean there's actually more of an appetite for some of these other sports.
Satvik:I think it's kind of a a tricky situation because on one hand, you're seeing people because as as the men's soccer reporter last year, I remember that that we we the women's team broke attendance records off, off the board last semester. And a big reason for that is I think people were just exploring different options because the football team wasn't as good. So it is a little bit bittersweet because on one hand, I'm kind of like, this is an amazing opportunity for every single other sport to show that they can draw in as much of an audience as football. But on the other hand, I'm like, there is no tangible or or possible way that these sports can generate enough enough revenue with just fan engagement as football. Football, if they connect connect with 50% of their target audience, they still get more than pretty much all the other programs, maybe bar basketball combined.
Alex:Mhmm.
Satvik:And I think that's definitely that was definitely a damning damning fact that I that I that I learned. It was just no matter what the other programs do financially, MSU
Alex:has
Satvik:just invested so much into football that it's just unequivocally the most lucrative no matter how it goes, like, whether it's succeeding or not.
Alex:And I
Satvik:think that was definitely crazy.
Alex:Well, alright. Well, thank you for coming on this week. If you guys listening wanna hear more about what actually goes on on the field, you can listen to Sports Roundtable. That's our sports podcast.
Satvik:It's definitely.
Alex:But if you're looking for more of this kind of, boring financial talk, you can always come to the nineteen o nine. So that's all for now. We'll be back next week with fresh reporting from the great minds here at the State News. Until then, the story we discussed and a bunch of others are available at statenews.com. Thank you to my guest and our podcast coordinator, but most of all, thank you for listening.
Satvik:Thank you for having me.
Alex:For the nineteen o nine, I'm Alex Walters.