RTO and Gen Z

In this insightful episode of the "Conversations We Learn From" podcast, we explore the complex dynamics of the return-to-office trend in the context of Gen Z. Host Brandon is joined by Sean Stowers, CEO of WeLearn, HR learning leader Loren Sanders, and Brandy Dawson, founder of the Goat Farm Consultancy. Together, they dive into the complex workplace landscape, discussing the implications of executive orders forcing workforces back into offices, the expectations of Gen Z employees, and the necessity for organizations to adapt their work models to meet these new challenges.

Key Highlights:

• Discussion on the Washington Post article by Heather Long about the current job market, highlighting "resent-ism" among young workers.
• Exploration of how Gen Z has made remote work a baseline expectation in the professional world.
• Insights into the potential impact of enforced return-to-office mandates, with predictions of higher turnover and PR challenges for companies.
• Conversations around how learning and development can aid in creating meaningful office experiences that foster community and connection.
• Analysis of the generational shift in work culture, emphasizing flexibility and the need for personalized learning opportunities.

Quotes:

• "Gen Z didn't invent remote work, but they sure as hell made it a baseline expectation." – Loren Sanders
• "The work model isn't necessarily broken right now—it's kind of in beta." – Loren Sanders
• "It's about relationships and reciprocity in the workplace." – Sean Stowers

Creators and Guests

Host

Loren Sanders

Author and Fortune 4 Learning Expert

Host

Sean Stowers

Founder, Chief Learning Officer, CEO

What is Conversations WeLearn From?

A great idea. A breakthrough on a big project. A bit of sound advice. The moment you realized it was time for a pivot, either personally or professionally. Some of our best learning comes in the form of the conversations we have with our colleagues, peers, loved ones, or even strangers. That’s the premise of Conversations WeLearn From — a new podcast brought to you by WeLearn. Learn more at welearnls.com.

Brandon Giella: Hello and welcome back
to another episode of the conversations

we learn from podcast today.

We have a great topic.

We are going to be talking about return to
office RTO, uh, debacle fiasco movement.

I'm not really sure what to
call it, especially as it

relates to the next generation.

So we're talking about Gen Z.

We're talking about new ways of working.

We're talking about.

Executive orders that are forcing some
parts of the workforce back into the

office, lots going on, lots to talk about.

And to talk about that, we have
experts, as we always do, one of

whom is Sean Stowers, CEO of WeLearn.

Hello, Sean.

How are you?

Sean Stowers: Brennan.

Uh, I'm glad to be here.

Brandon Giella: We also have
Lauren Sanders back again HR

learning leader extraordinaire.

Uh, how are you?

Loren Sanders: Good, I'm coming
with lots of opinions today.

Brandon Giella: Yes, that's what we want.

And we also have a new
guest, Brandy Dawson.

Brandy, you have 20 years of
corporate communications and marketing

experience, and you are also the
founder of the Goat Farm Consultancy.

And we are waiting to see
those goats at some point.

Brandy Dawson: So am I.

They're coming.

They're coming, Brandon.

Brandon Giella: Great to have you.

I'm very excited to hear from you.

I know you've got a lot of
experience in this world.

Um, so why don't we just jump in?

So the whole, uh, return to office
movement, it has been, uh, a sore point,

a point of contention for the last
several years, ever since the pandemic.

And, could, There is a lot that goes into
that, and everybody has opinions about

it, because there are some aspects that
can be helpful about being in the office.

There are also some aspects that
are very helpful for not being

in the office all the time.

There's a lot of flexibility.

There's things you can do
at home that are helpful.

There's, you know, you can work odd hours.

You can be asynchronous.

So, for example, My team, we're a team
of 10, some part time, some full time.

We're all over the world.

We work asynchronously most of the
time, which is great most of the time.

And then sometimes, you know, how
do you establish cultural norms?

How do you establish
a good rhythm of work?

You know, sometimes there are synchronous
times where it's good to be in office.

But particularly for Gen Z, we were
talking about this before we started

recording, they have not had as much
time to develop some of those in office

cues or develop Uh, you know, ways of,
of working, getting mentorship from

leaders who are more senior from them.

Um, and so there's a lot of benefits
that can be in office and they have some

opinions about it and they're not shy
to let you know what those opinions are.

So Sean, I want to start with you because
you mentioned there is a Washington Post

article that just came out talking about
some of this, and I would love to start

with you to kind of recap that article.

And then we can dive in with
Lauren's many opinions, Brandy's

expertise, and we will get this going.

So Sean, give us a, give
us the lay of the land.

Sean Stowers: Yeah.

So, um, there's a great opinion piece
in the Washington Post today by Heather

Long, and it's entitled In the Great
State Economy, Americans Feel Stuck.

And what she's talking about is, um,
the fact that we have Historically

low unemployment, about 4.

1%, but we also have high interest rates.

And so, um, in terms of mortgage
interest rates, and so, uh, people,

um, are not able to either move
jobs as easily as they could before

and can't pick up and move homes.

But one of the things that was super
interesting was, um, is about the third

paragraph in and I'll kind of read it and
says, uh, to be sure, um, this is a pretty

good situation for many people, especially
if they enjoy the current lifestyle.

But for anyone feeling
restless, it's tough.

Young workers have started saying
they have resent ism at work.

Um, they don't feel like their jobs are.

Um, fulfilling them.

They don't like their jobs,
but they're reluctant to quit.

Um, and that's a big shift from what
we saw in 2021 and 2022, which I

think was, you know, what we were
calling the great resignation.

Everyone was moving jobs
because they were able to get.

More flexibility, more money.

And I think that it's kind of interesting
now to kind of realize that this is

where we are right now, and it's really
a tension between both the labor markets

and housing and and really interest rates
that are keeping people staying put.

Um, as we then get companies starting
to say, Hey, we know we gave you all

this great flexibility, but now you've
got to come back to the office five

days a week, which is super fascinating.

Loren Sanders: You're
ready for my opinion?

Brandon Giella: Yes, please.

I was about to ask.

Loren Sanders: in full
disclosure, I'm a mom of six.

Four of them are Gen Z, so I'm
getting some real qualitative data

the quantitative data
that we get in the news.

But I think it's really important to
ground ourselves in the fact that while

Gen Z didn't invent remote work, they sure
as hell made it a baseline expectation.

And I think hybrid is the default, and
flexibility is no longer just a perk.

Gen Z is kind of flipping the work
script in a non traditional way,

so if we're still debating return
to office versus work from home,

we've already lost that battle.

Reliable data?

The U.S

Bureau of Labor Statistics from August
2024 report shows hybrid and remote

work arrangements are growing still.

And companies forcing full return
to office mandates should probably

brace themselves for higher
turnover and possible PR nightmares

because Gen Z is not quiet when
they think something isn't fair.

And what we're calling hybrid,
they might tell you that's not

what, what I think that means,
or I don't know that you think.

You know what that means?

And there's a very unclear definition
of what hybrid actually is.

Flexibility is no longer a perk.

It's non-negotiable

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Tell us a little bit more about that.

So you were just mentioning before our, we
were on the call about what you're seeing

with, with some of the Gen Z workers, you
know, some familial, some not, uh, about

some of the demands, if you want to call
it that, what, what are their expectations

and why might that be the case?

Loren Sanders: I'm giggling as I say
this, but it's like, I want to come to

the office when I want to come to the
office, and there's something valuable

that I'm going to get from being there.

And when there isn't something valuable
that I'm going to get from being

there, like, you're going to put me
in an office somewhere where I'm going

to have to meet with a whole team
that isn't even in the same place.

That's not doing me any good.

I might as well work from home.

Brandon Giella: Yep.

Loren Sanders: Gen Z expects
the work to fit into their lives

and not the other way around.

It's not for the sake of just showing
up to be ticked off in an office.

Sean Stowers: You know, what's
interesting is, I think that our

understanding of what jobs can be
done remotely changed in the pandemic.

So I think about my career.

I went from working in a man for a
manufacturing company where I was in

an office and Five days a week to going
to work for a very large technology

company, whereas a sales professional.

I was a remote employee right
have laptop will travel.

I didn't have an assigned desk.

I then moved into working for a division
of a large global publishing company.

And in that particular division,
there was a belief that if you

weren't sitting at your desk every
day, you weren't doing your job.

Right.

And then eventually that became
the idea that one could work

remotely or work for at the time.

It was work from home, right?

It wasn't work from remote.

It was you were working from home.

It became more acceptable.

I think with the pandemic, what we
found were white collar jobs, which

have for a long time always had that
ability to work from home to be flexible.

That was fine.

I think we found that the
jobs That we didn't expect.

Claims processing, um, you know,
administrative jobs, in some cases even

HR, could be done remotely, and then
suddenly it was like, oh wait, we can

do those jobs from a distance, we don't
have to be in the office, you know, we

can do that, and so now we've set that
expectation that actually, those jobs

can be done remotely, but now we're
starting to say, oh no, now we want you

to come back, like everyone needs to be
here, and I think we're not, we're, when

we see companies doing that, They're
they're expounding reasons for it, whether

it's Hey, we get better collaboration.

We get better, um, no cultural
attachment to the organization.

I think that they're there.

I think a lot of organizations are
talking about that, but they're not

prepared to deliver on what that
promises right and how to and how

to meet meet that moment with with
the workers that are coming back.

And in some cases who had
been promised flexibility.

Loren Sanders: what I want
is, I want to have, I'm going

to place my order with you.

I want virtual fluency with
a side of IRL when I want it.

Brandon Giella: hmm.

Mm

Sean Stowers: Fair enough.

Fair

Brandy Dawson: I jump in here.

Um, you know, so kind of, I
remember back during the early days

of the pandemic, I was the one.

Who had to hit send and craft the
communications to send 20, 000 people

home all over the world and thinking,
oh, this is only going to be a week or

maybe two and four years later, here
we still are, but I think we're seeing

a shift, whether we like it or not.

And whether Gen Z or any generation,
um, you know, the federal government

just said everybody back in the office.

And they've also said
hiring freeze, no new roles.

I was just reading
about that this morning.

You're seeing major employers
who want everybody back in the

office and five days a week.

And Sean, to your point, they're saying
collaboration, creativity, community.

different mixed responses on that.

I'm more like you.

I'm a mom.

I have one.

Um, my Gen Z er right now is in
Denver, you know, at a job interview.

And we've talked a lot about this as he
goes and tries to find his first job.

Uh, anecdotally, he really
wants to be in an office.

So, um, he did not like Zoom school.

And, you know, missed out on the
last two years of high school,

like being around other people
and I preparing for this podcast.

I'm like, why?

Um, but he feels like it's that
opportunity to learn from others.

Uh, he wants to go into finance.

So being able to see how senior
people handle calls, um, those

informal conversations, will
that give him a competitive edge?

You know, as he tries to build his career
and, um, Speaking of data, I was, I was

looking at kind of some of the Gen Z data,
overwhelmingly, they prefer hybrid, but

they do crave community and connection.

And there was a Microsoft Work Trends
Index that 78 of Gen Z report needing more

in person interaction to learn and grow.

And so those who are bringing
people back into the office.

They've got to invest some time in
that workplace experience to make

it worth being there, um, and for
people to be able to see the benefits.

And I think that's a huge opportunity
for learning and development to play

in a role in creating those experiences
that I can't, I can't get at home.

Sean Stowers: Right.

Well, it's interesting.

You said, you said crave connection
and community, which I think are

two of the big things that L and
D does bring to the organization.

And Lauren, I think you were
going to jump in there too.

And you may be wanting to build on that.

Loren Sanders: I think that is very true.

Sean learning and development has a
great opportunity here where I'd really

like to see data though, is they want
to come to the office when, when there's

something important that will help
propel their career path, when there

are people there that they can interact
with, cause it kind of sucks if you go to

the office and your leader's not there.

Uh, Because your leader doesn't work
there ever, or works in a different state.

And when, do they want to
come to the office from 5?

Kind of don't think so.

I think there are pockets of opportunity.

And that there needs to be a
little bit more flexibility

in how and when it happens.

And the outcomes that we're looking for
that can help the people connect and grow.

And honestly, L& D knows how
to do this because we do it

with programs all the time.

So we could probably help organizations
figure out how to design workdays

better for outcome purposes than just
to have people in the office because

we have a building we have to pay for,
which is often not said but the truth.

Brandon Giella: I'm curious.

I think the obvious thing is there
are huge tradeoffs between working at

home and working in an office and I
think generally, generationally, you

know, maybe Gen Z, they have more time
to commit to things like that because

they're growing in different ways.

Whereas somebody in their thirties forties
or fifties, they have kids at home.

I mean, I know that 30 minute
commute that I otherwise would have.

That's when I can process email.

That's when I can do the dishes.

get my daughter from daycare,
I can do a lot more things in

that time and just in my life.

And everybody feels that way,
but somebody who's Gen Z,

they have a lot more to learn.

And so I'm curious from you guys,
given Brandy's example, having a

child who wants to work in finance,
wants to learn from senior leaders,

how do they handle those calls?

And my thinking is that would be
really hard to, formalize that or make

that into a learning platform or a
module or some kind of MLMS or, I'm

curious, how do you guys think about
teaching training, in a learning and

cultural environment in those informal.

ad hoc, teachable moments that
I know a lot of leaders do

in part to younger workers.

I mean, how do you formalize that?

Sean Stowers: So it's interesting when
you when you were talking about the things

that you When you talk about for yourself
that that time of working from home where

you process emails You you you go pick
up your daughter at daycare I think part

of what you're talking about is that we
have to normalize in Organizations that

are bringing workers back five days a
week that it is okay to say I need to take

care of something And and there's a great
there's an example that I always come back

to in this where You know it It's an older
example, but I think that for a long time,

you know, um, men would, you know, Hey,
I need a plan to go to my kid's event.

I'm just going to put block my
calendar and say out of office.

I'm not publicly declaring that I'm taking
the time to go to my child's event, right?

Whereas women would typically wring their
hands over having to say that because I'm

Women are sometimes unfairly judged for
taking care of the kid commitment, right?

And so there's this idea of how
do we now make it okay to say,

I need time to do this and have
that be accessible, acceptable.

Part of it is modeling it from
the top, but part of it is also

making sure that managers and
leaders at all levels understand.

That the expectation of the organization
is, yes, I want that employee here

five days a week, if that is the
expectation, but we also want to

provide them the flexibility they
need for, to balance their life.

So if Brandon needs to go pick up
his daughter from daycare one day,

then it's okay for Brandon to do it.

If Lauren, if Lauren needs time off
because she's a caregiver to someone

in her family, it's okay for Lauren to
take that time, or that day, or to say,

hey, I need to work from home that day.

Right.

You need to make sure that the, the
permission structure for flexibility

is built and it's delivered
equitably in the organization, right?

You can't have a brand value that
says, Hey, we value this and then

have it inconsistently applied.

Because I think, again, that's where
Gen Z's, Gen Alpha, they're going

to come back and they're going to
go, wait, you told me I could have

this, but now I'm not getting it.

And that, that's not fair.

Loren Sanders: Well, I want
to add another layer to this.

talked about the gender specific roles.

I think that's true in some of the
generations, like I'm a gen X, so

I'm sure it's true in my generation.

I'm sure it's true in the boomer,
the traditionalist generation, but

we forget that the later millennials.

The Gen Z's and Gen Alpha's live their
life online and everything is transparent.

So they're not gonna hesitate to
tell you what they need and if

if they don't get it they're not
gonna hesitate to be done with you.

Don't, we have to forget the
transactional nine to five mindset.

Gen Z is evaluating everything like it's
a personal branding exercise, honestly.

And I'm sure Brandy can
probably talk more about that.

They're looking through the
lens of your company culture.

They're looking through the lens
of equity, environmental impact,

all of the things that you espouse.

If those are not how you activate things,
you're going to have a problem with hiring

because the word will spread really fast.

Brandy Dawson: It'll be interesting to
see how the data pans out over the next

couple of years as, as the government
brings back employees and other again, you

can debate the pros and cons, but I think
it will be higher turnover to some degree

for if people don't want to do that.

I think that.

There, Sean, to your point, there
was going to have to be flexibility.

But also, one of the things that I've
been thinking about is, especially

when it comes to Gen Z, higher
anxiety than any other generation.

Um, right now, you also have, um,
loneliness, you know, as a epidemic,

and I think it's like 30 percent
or something of folks feel lonely.

And we saw this too when, when I
was working during the pandemic.

Especially younger workers and
workers who lived alone, it was

really hard for them because younger
workers, they're in their bedroom.

There is no separation.

They don't have the space.

They don't have the spare room.

Um, and if they're living in a flat
in a city or an apartment in a city

with 2 other roommates, they don't
necessarily want to sit on their bed.

Some do, some do, but some don't.

They don't necessarily want to sit
on their bed and, and work that way.

And the same with people who
don't, you know, if you're an

individual contributor, maybe you
talk to your manager once a week.

So I'm curious to get everyone's
thoughts when you look at burnout.

Where there's no separation
of work and home.

When you look at a younger generation
where they, um, have higher anxiety,

um, work life balance they want.

And sometimes they're not
getting that from the physical

break between their work.

And that was one of the things
my son said, when I leave

work, I want to be done.

I don't want to have to think about it.

I want.

He wants kind of those, those
psychological and those physical barriers

of, you know, so when he comes home, you
know, whether it's here or he eventually,

hopefully live someplace else, um,
he doesn't have to think about work.

And so I'd be curious to get other
people's thoughts on thinking about Gen

Z and how it's very different than other
generations and also people who live

alone kind of that return to office.

How does, you know, and there are other
ways to get community, I get it, but

if you look at, um, Gallup's engagement
survey, also employee, this goes to

what you were talking about, Sean,
employee engagements at an all time low.

And one of the things that is, as you
work your way up, kind of, you know,

I know what's expected of me, I have
the tools and resources to do my job.

Somebody's told me, you know,
um, I've done good work.

I get to do what I do best, but
also one of the critical ones

and the most controversial ones
is I have a best friend at work

Sean Stowers: absolutely.

Which is, by the way, one of my favorites.

It's one of my favorites.

Brandy Dawson: It's one of my favorites.

I mean, um, and that best friend at work,
you know, you can do that virtually.

But it's also those in person moments,
um, and maybe it's being intentional

about creating those conditions, um,
but that those friendships develop.

So I would love to get Sean and
Lauren and Brandon's thoughts.

I know there's a lot to unpack there.

Sean Stowers: It's interesting.

First of all, I do love the I have
a best friend at work question

because I do think it's important.

And again, it's about community.

I think, you know, the thing that I keep
coming back to is as as we All of this

around return to office is that, you
know, I think that the way that we equip

our, I think from the way we onboard
employees moving forward to the way that

we equip managers to do their job and
kind of interact with employer employees.

I think it has to change.

I think it has to change.

I think we have to rethink
all of that dynamic because

I think that the dynamic, um,

The date we are never going to be
able to go back to what the pre

pandemic dynamic was of the manager
employee relationship because

fundamentally it's it's it's changed.

It is changed.

Even if you are the person who's like.

I'm ready to go back five days a week.

The dynamic between you and your
leader has changed between you and

your manager has changed between
you and your employees has changed.

That dynamic has changed.

And now you're going to put everyone
back in the same space five days a week.

Um, that we don't know.

We, I don't think yet know what
that moment looks like in terms

of what sort of, um, What's
going to come out of that, right?

And I think that we are not.

And I think for Manila D perspective,
we have to be there ready to learn

from that and rapidly adjust what we're
doing and create the interventions

to navigate through that because
it's going to be interesting, right?

In terms of that.

So I just think that we're it's an
interesting time for us because I just

don't think we know what to expect.

We've never done this before,
so we don't know what to expect.

to happen now, that you bring all
these people back, but I just think

that the ways of doing what we
did before aren't going to apply.

Brandy Dawson: You think it's a
shift from the great resignation

to the great experiment and

Sean Stowers: agree.

Loren Sanders: I think it's a huge
opportunity for L& D to make real

something that we've said for a long
time that always falls on deaf ears.

And it's the whole thing of
one size does not fit all.

Your one type of training for every
single employee does not fit all.

And if we pull this back around to
the platform question, which is what

Brandon originally asked us, while
solid learning platforms do not.

are nice to have, they can also be
the glue that holds people together if

it's done well in a way that makes it
specific to the human who's using it.

And I have a perfect example
right now that I'm watching

one of my kids go through.

She just got a job, and I won't
say where, but her first entire

week was nothing but sitting in a
room by herself watching videos.

And she's complaining to me about it.

I'm like, well, and it's a
highly regulated industry.

And I'm, I said, are
they compliance videos?

No, they're just like how we do
things, things I already know how

to do because I've worked in this
industry, you know, growing up before.

I know the things that have to happen.

So I'm already familiar with them.

So she went to her boss and said.

This is excruciating.

Like, I already know how to do
these things, can we just show me,

show me, like, how we do it here?

Because that's what I need to know.

And, uh, she got a little bit of pushback,
and it had to go all the way to the

top, and come back down, and finally,
two weeks later, after two weeks of

being in a room for 40 hours a week
watching videos, they're finally making

some changes to, for her, personally.

But, she's probably not the only one.

Who's going to go through this?

So we have so much opportunity with A.

I.

Now and other tools to personalize the
platforms and the learning for the people.

Um, we have so much opportunity to not
make learning a marathon thing to make it

much more bite size, much more actionable,
much more instantly gratifying.

The Gen Z folks like streaks
and badges and things like that.

So we may have to bring
some of that gamification.

Those of us who were in other generations
may not appreciate it so much, but give,

give it to the people that want it.

And if we can't do it mobily, then
we're already dead in the water.

And if we can't make
it social, even worse.

Sean Stowers: What's interesting, Lauren,
is I think that, you know, when you talked

about gamification, um, I think we as L
and D professionals have used gamification

as thinking about it from as an engagement
tool as it's kind of like a feature.

But the most important thing about
gamification, it is it's a feedback loop

for your learners, and it's a feedback
loop that you do not have to invest

in a human being giving that feedback.

You are automating that feedback.

Based on how they're progressing
through the experience.

And so, I think that we have to
stop thinking of gamification as,

Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's how
we're gonna hold their attention.

It's not how you're holding your,
your attention, their attention.

It's how you're giving them feedback
on where they are in the journey.

Loren Sanders: And I just think
of Duolingo, you know, got time

for a three minute lesson, and
you get your three minute lesson,

let's review your mistakes, okay.

Right,

Brandy Dawson: a room watching, you
know, videos for a week or 2 weeks.

I mean, um, no one, you know, no one
particularly enjoys being lectured at for.

You know, a week or two weeks.

And if it's just one way and flat on
a screen, uh, that makes it even more

difficult, I think, to pay attention.

You'll see Gen Z, I
didn't know this trick.

They will try to zoom through
it or play like three times the,

the speed or how do they get to
the end so they can say, I agree.

Because they're UI mean, this is
a digital, a digital generation.

They're, they're used to.

Doing things that I
didn't know were possible.

And I'm like, Oh, wow.

It's like, how can I get through
this as fast as possible to

Lauren to your daughter's point?

So I can do the job.

Um, so how do you slow that down
and make that more interactive?

Um, and whether it's through gamification
or practices, you mentioned Duolingo,

one of the best things is where
you get a practice speaking and

then get feedback on how you did.

So is there an opportunity for
that, um, when it comes to.

Comes to learning and learning online.

I think it's absolutely here to
stay, but I think there's also

social learning, emotional learning,

Loren Sanders: well,

Brandy Dawson: formal learning.

Loren Sanders: When you tell me, you
get a little ping and it says, Sean

Stowers already did seven lessons today.

And I'm like, hey,

Sean Stowers: Yeah.

Loren Sanders: I better
catch up with Sean,

Sean Stowers: well, but it's

Loren Sanders: he's not going to beat me.

Sean Stowers: it's super interesting
when we're talking about this

level of learning, right?

And so, you know, you talk about
speeding through and how do I get

to the attestation of I solemnly
swear to never do a bad thing, right?

I think that one of the things, as we look
at bringing people back into the office.

And trans, what it means to transform
learning is, you know what, we

have to start realizing read
and sign is not learning, right?

You can't have read and sign and have
that be learning because if that's

what learning is, then why are we
bringing people back to the office?

If that's all we're doing is read
and sign type stuff, why are we

bringing people back to the office?

So I think that is also part of saying,
hey, if we want to stand out, if we want

to avoid being hit with a great resentism,
We need to make sure that our tools of

building community and connection, i.

e.

L& D, employee communication, etc.

are robust.

Brandon Giella: Yeah.

Brandy Dawson: Yeah, how do you,
how do you design those programs

that combine the best of everything

Sean Stowers: Yeah.

Brandy Dawson: and, you know, so whether
that's in person experiences or online

experiences or peer to peer job shadowing
programs, that's where you're going to

add value if you bring people back in.

If you don't do that, and they just
sit at their desk on zoom all day.

Loren Sanders: why I like confidence
questions and evaluations.

How confident are you that
you can actually do this?

Brandon Giella: I want to see if
I can summarize or maybe interpret

what I'm hearing from all of you.

And I've got my own theory and,
uh, and so I'll let, I want to

summarize it, interpret it, and
I want to get the final word from

each of you starting with Brandy.

But here, here's my thought from
what I'm hearing from you guys.

We've talked about.

Uh, being in office and hearing, you
know, learning from people in person.

Like I said, some of that informal
learning, we've got loneliness, anxiety,

we've got creativity and collaboration.

There's this kind of
personal element as well.

And then Lauren, you mentioned a couple
of times that, you know, uh, Gen Z is,

is, uh, what can I get out of this?

You know, why should I be there?

Why is that important?

And I think that's really important that
I'm there and if I could distill that

to one thing, and I would say learning
leaders focus on that one thing, how

they can build out either a strategy or
content or platform that can do that,

I would say it would be relationships.

How can I foster relationships in such
a way that it's, you know, efficient,

you know, we got to get our work done,
we got to do what we need to do, but it

builds culture, it creates an informal
learning environment, it gives feedback,

it reduces loneliness and anxiety.

And, and my thought is.

You know, over the last like 200
years, we've moved from a rural to

an urban environment and we've had a
destabilization of some traditional

institutions that did provide some of
that community, whether that was school,

religion, family, things like that.

And so now there's a lot of hope and, uh,
maybe emphasis or importance put on the

workplace to fulfill some of those needs.

And, uh, and a lot of that is having
a best friend at work because the

best friend used to be elsewhere.

But now I want to actually cut off
that, that office time at five o'clock

and I want to go home and have.

My community at home and my community
at work, and I'm getting a sense that

relationships are the the key that could
kind of resolve some of these tensions.

Does that make sense?

Do you feel that is there?

How do we move forward with that?

So, Brandy, I'll start with you.

What?

What is your sense of my interpretation
of what you guys are saying?

Mm

Brandy Dawson: are important and kind
of those social skills are important

and developing those social skills
to build better relationships.

And I think that's going to be
done both in person and it's

probably going to be online too.

I mean, you know, Sean and
I have never met in person.

I think we might've been in the same
place at the same time, but when we

first spoke, this immediate connection.

When I meet him in person someday, he's
going to get the biggest hug in the world.

Um, but also I think that, you
know, you've got to be intentional

about bringing people together.

And as far as learning and development,
I think there is an opportunity

from a learning development.

How do you build?

You know, how do you help
people have those skills to

build stronger relationships?

Because when you have a strong
relationship with someone, when you

trust them, when it's not transactional,
whether you do that in person or in line

or online, that's where the magic happens.

That's where you're unstoppable.

That's where you achieve goals
you never thought possible.

At least teams that I've worked on.

Loren Sanders: Say yes.

And to everything that Brandy said, and
I think the big takeaway is the work

model isn't necessarily broken right now.

It's kind of in beta flexibility
is not a passing trend.

It is the foundation of
our future workforce.

And the real question is, can
you leaders meet your workforce

at least halfway right now?

Or are you going to keep doubling
down on mandates that are

alienating your employees because
for your Gen Z's and upcoming Gen

A's Work isn't just a paycheck.

It is a statement of their values.

It's a statement of their identity It's
a statement of their purpose And if you

are not designing your workplace and
your training while we're talking about

that to reflect it You're not just behind
the times you're gonna be irrelevant

Sean Stowers: I love that.

And here's what I will add.

I'm going to add another R word,
Brendan, and that's reciprocity.

And I think that it is about
relationships and reciprocity.

And, um, you know, a really good
friend of some of us on the phone,

Aaron Delgatti at the Star Conspiracy.

wrote a book and we talks about the
employee value propositions and one

of the pillars of a great employee
value proposition is reciprocity,

whereas, you know, there's a
recognition that I show up every day.

I do my job.

I bring my skills.

Yes, I get paid for that.

But there's also a reciprocity in that in
terms of I'm invested in, I'm developed.

And I think that that idea of, you know,
If If we're changing the model, you know,

and we're asking people to adapt to the
change that we're asking them to adapt to.

How do we bring some reciprocity
to that conversation?

And again, demonstrate that we are
investing in our employees, that we're

providing them the opportunities to grow.

To Brandy's point, that we are
creating the space in which

community can be created.

Um, and how are we doing
that intentionally?

I think it becomes super important.

Brandon Giella: Amen.

Amen.

This is a daunting task.

If I could put it mildly, I
think there's a lot to do and

a lot of variables to consider.

Different, like I said,
industries, organization sizes,

tax tax, and generations.

It's just, there's a lot going on.

Lauren, it looked like
you were about to say

Loren Sanders: Yeah, I was just
gonna say the book is great

if people haven't read it.

It's called Working Relationships,
Crisis and Resilience at the

Heart of the Employee Experience.

If you have not checked
out this book, you should.

If that's something you care about.

Yes.

Brandon Giella: thanks
y'all for this conversation.

I've so enjoyed it.

I think there's so much to tease apart.

I mean, literally probably 50 episodes
just came out of this conversation.

And I'm just, uh, I'm, there's so much
because there is so much going on, you

know, it's been years and years of trying
to tinker with this kind of model and

trying to figure out what to do next.

You know, what do we do from here?

And so, uh, hopefully we'll
get another chance to talk.

Um, but I do believe we have
another episode coming soon

talking about the future of work.

So maybe we'll carry this
conversation into that one again.

Thank you so much, Sean, Lauren, Brandy.

Pleasure having you.

We will see you next time.

Brandy Dawson: Thank you, Brandon.

Thanks everyone.