The Ten Thousand Things

We explore the experience of identifying as victim, through personal stories and theory, and of course the potential of spirituality and psychotherapy in helping move through, and renounce identities over time.

We discuss the dangers of adhering to a single identity label, and the benefit of taking responsibility for our own actions and healing, while being aware that we are also inescapably interconnected with others.

Identities such as Victim are necessary and useful, and can arise naturally from a life event such as an accident, an assault, or injustice, but also from ordinary childhood experiences, a personal identity, or a relationship dynamic. So we may come to identify as victim. This is normal, but over time our sense of self shifts greatly and we move through many identifications. to enable us to life more fully.

We've all been a victim, we all suffer, we all deserve comfort and help, and it's also true that we sometimes cling too long to a sense of being The Victim. We are usually right about that victimhood in some way, even with people who fraudulently claim victim status. While fraudulent victims provoke understandable outrage, as we see in the extraordinary case of Belle Gibson, such people are probably suffering in any case, and their fraud itself is an indicator that something is wrong in their lives.

Sam finds a related quote about Lacan's formulation of fantasy, the Other, the alienation of the subject, and restoring the dignity of the subject by letting go of fantasy. Marx and Zizek get a mention.

And we get into how spirituality and therapy both invite a deconstruction of ego and fantasies. The conversation concludes with the benefit of adopting broader, more interdependent perspectives on life.

Image courtesy: Craig https://www.instagram.com/p/CrFzDLgK7Mw/

(00:00) - Being the victim
(00:46) - Identity Politics and Neurodivergence
(02:14) - The Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle's book and a quote
(02:23) - Eckhart Tolle's Influence and Impact
(04:46) - Interpreting Eckhart Tolle's Quote
(05:40) - Victimhood and Identity
(21:54) - Responsibility and Victimhood
(27:46) - The Ego and Therapy: A Complex Relationship
(28:05) - The Role of Victim Mentality in Therapy
(29:12) - The Struggle of Admitting Victimhood
(30:19) - The Process of Analyzing and Accepting Trauma
(31:33) - The Importance of Self-Responsibility in Therapy
(31:51) - The Impact of Trauma on Identity
(36:04) - The Role of Fantasy in Therapy
(45:41) - The Paradox of Individuality and Interdependence
(47:55) - Concluding Thoughts: The Illusion of the Separate Self

Creators & Guests

Host

Ali Catramados

Diagnosed crazy cat lady/part time podcaster

Host

Joe Loh

Film crew guy and mental health care worker with aspirations of being a small town intellectual one day.

Host

Sam Ellis

Teacher/father/leftist loonie/raised hare Krishna and have never quite renounced it - "I just have one more thing to say, then I’ll let you speak"

What is The Ten Thousand Things?

Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.

Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

Joe: My name's Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show,

Sam: three neurodivergent people
deal with one of the 10, 000 things.

Joe: Yeah, is that our, is that our thing?

Sam: Something like that, isn't it?

Yeah.

Ali: Sounds good to me.

Hmm.

We workshopped it, we improved it
a bit a couple of episodes ago and

I think we'll just keep improving
it until we find one we like.

Joe: Do we need the neurodivergent
angle for people to listen to us or not?

Sam: I think for some people...

It's an, it's added value, but then at
a certain point you forget that you're

listening to three neurodivergent
people, they're just three people and

that's kind of the whole point I guess.

Joe: Yeah.

What percentage of the
population is neurodivergent?

Sam: Great.

I don't know.

Ali, you might have a better idea than me.

No idea.

I mean, you hear things like one in five.

Ali: That probably sounds about right.

Sam: Yeah, or am I getting that
mixed up with, that's the rate

for chronic anxiety for under 20s.

But I mean look, it's often one in five.

Joe: I think in a capitalist
society you need to have an angle

and we, that's our angle, right?

Yeah.

The neurodivergent.

Sam: Everyone has to market
themselves, that's right.

Joe: Yeah.

And there's a neurodivergent flag
that we could hang up here in the

garage if we really wanted to.

Sam: Oh, for sure.

Well, I've already got
the rainbow flag up.

Joe: But we could slice it and dice
it more so that me and Ali were

the bipolars, which is much more
serious than what you're doing.

No, that's

Sam: true.

Yeah, fair.

Yeah.

Ali: I don't know if you need to say that.

Joe: Which is the problem with, which
is kind of the problem, which is kind

of the problem with identity politics
because eventually we slice and dice.

So finally, does Ali win, you know,
with her not being a man and me being

a straight man but having, you know...

Sam: The family...

Eventual illness.

Yeah, that's right.

No, look, it's a real horse race.

It's a real horse race with
you two, neck and neck.

Joe: All identity politics
is a complete dead end.

Well, no, I...

Sam: think it actually

Joe: leads into today's topic,
so maybe we should read out

our quote from Eckhart Tolle.

Yeah,

Sam: let's do it.

go on then, today on the show.

Today

Joe: on the show we have a quote
from Eckhart Tolle from a book that

I just re read called A New Earth.

Eckhart wrote The Power of Now quite
famously in the late 90s, which

Oprah picked up and it became a
spiritual, uh, super mega seller.

Absolutely.

Which I've read and re
read quite a few times.

This one's also very re readable.

Eckhart himself is a weird,
not very cool seeming guy.

Not in a bad way, just a
slightly creepy vibe about him.

But his books are amazing.

distilling of spiritual concepts
that, are easy to come at.

Sam: I agree.

The opening of The Power
of Now is incredible.

It's really strong.

It's a very arresting,
it's well written chapter.

It's just, it's, it belongs in
the genre of like the addict's

personal testimony, doesn't it?

And it's got, it's got the rock bottom.

It's got the, the witnessing,
witnessing the miracle.

Joe: He had a spiritual experience,
like a white light moment where All

his fear and anxiety just drained
away and he was, yeah, standing

in the sunlight of the spirit.

It's

Sam: a salvation, you know, and
recovery from addiction narrative

with a lot of the classic hallmarks.

Well

Joe: he wasn't an addict,
but he was suicidal.

He went from suicidal to
spiritually enlightened.

And he would say...

Has stabilised his spiritual
enlightenment, which is often the

trick with a spiritual awakening
is just can you stay in that state?

And he would say stabilize
it and now is worth a hundred

million dollars or something.

Sam: Well, that's right.

And I was about to say I think it's
one thing to recover from like a

really difficult moment or It's
a period in your life like that.

And then it's quite another
thing to achieve radical success

in a short time and then start
hanging out with the Illuminati.

I mean, yeah, it's going
to do things to you.

All right.

Joe: Should we do the quote?

So the quote just needs to
stand on its own, I think.

It does.

It Eckhart

Sam: Tolle.

Well, there you go.

We got him out the way up front.

So here's the quote.

"A very common role is the one of
victim and the form of attention

it seeks is sympathy or pity or
other's interest in my problems.

Me and my story.

Seeing oneself as a victim is an
element in many egoic patterns

such as complaining, being
offended, outraged, and so on.

Of course, once I am identified with a
story in which I assigned myself the role

of victim, I don't want it to end, and
so, as every therapist knows, the ego

does not want an end to its problems,
because they are part of its identity."

Ali: think that comes back.

You know, just so much of not
seeing, being, not feeling seen

in childhood, not feeling heard.

And perhaps the only times you were
seen and heard were in fact, when

you were being cared for or tended to
perhaps when you were sick or something.

And so, yeah, this, this pattern then,
you know, of like reward for being,

you know, the victim, like, you know,
you were bullied at school and, "Oh,

I'm so sorry that happened to you."

And that was like a, It, it filled
a void of something that should

have actually already been filled.

And so it then becomes this pattern of a
pattern of behavior, like moving forward

in your life where to, yeah, you, you,
it's the, whether it's good attention

or bad attention, it's still attention.

And it's attention that you just wasn't
given to you at a really important

developmental time in your life.

Sam: That's it.

That's exactly right.

I agree entirely.

Yeah.

Joe: Uh, identifying as a victim
is a particularly toxic thing

that swept through the culture in
like the 2010s, I think, and has

been very bad for people, I think.

Sure.

Because what he's talking
about is broader, like Yes.

Sam: Leaving aside identity, for
example, I'm a victim because

of this one thing that happened
or this identity I belong to.

Joe: No, but it's the way
the ego reifies itself.

So yes, that's what I'm saying.

So what Eckhart agrees with me
on is that I'm loving awareness.

Yes.

And the illusion is Joe,
the separate individual.

And the more that I.

build up that illusion, the more I suffer.

Now, I can, to, to define myself,
if I'm not successful in my career,

say, or, or in my family or whatever,
then maybe all I have left to

define myself is I'm a victim.

That's right.

Yeah.

And so, he's talking about, yeah, how the
ego, like, takes over us like a parasite.

It does.

And, but the victim, uh, identity is
a particularly toxic one, and I think

it's one that became very popular in the
West in the last 10 or 15 years, and I

think it's been, you know, deleterious
to our culture, our politics, you know,

yeah, but then I could be accused of,
what do they call it, victim blaming?

Yeah,

Ali: of course.

Victim blaming or just not
acknowledging your own privilege

of not actually experiencing
those things that people do feel

Sam: victims of.

Yeah.

Now of course, to be fair, Joe's got
plenty of claims to that status himself

and so that you're not in the, you're
not coming at this quite from the

point of view of the crusty boomer
who's like everyone wants a medal now.

Yeah.

Like your perspective on it is no, no, no,
I've been through the shit and you know,

how many times you've been hospitalized?

A couple.

Yep.

And You know, you've had, you had
a pretty sticky wicket earlier.

Like, there's a lot of things
you could point to, but my, but

you're like, yeah, that's all true.

And a lot of just, well, everyone else
has at least one thing they can point to.

But what you're advocating is not living
your life with that frame of reference.

Joe: I'm advocating waking up from
the illusion of being a separate self.

Sure.

Trapped in an ego.

And, and being able to use your ego
as a tool to navigate the world,

to make a living and all that, but
basically to rest in a loving awareness.

That's right.

So, a spiritual awakening
is what I'm advocating.

Sam: Yeah, the ego has instrumental
purposes and needs to remain an instrument

and not the driver of what's happening.

Joe: And I think that's why I read
and reread those books because

it layers it into my system.

The only path that I've
found to liberation.

Because as long as we're trapped
in a purely egotistical material

world, we will suffer because we
miss, we, we misapprehend reality and

we misapprehend who we are, who we
are and what we're doing on earth.

Ali: It's so, it's limiting, like it
doesn't, it's limiting in that there's

so many things we could be, but we're
just limiting ourselves to these, to

this really narrow frame of reference
of, you know, of victim rather than,

you know, yeah, you could just say you
have, Whether it's trauma, diagnoses,

you know, bad things that have happened,
whatever they are and like multiple

things that have affected you negatively.

Sam: You've had a car accident.

Ali: Like those things are horrible and
have absolutely impacted you, you know, in

the way that you move through the world.

It is limiting to then just be, just
defined purely by that rather than, yeah,

like you're just a car accident victim
rather than, you know, you're also a

partner or, you know, you're a parent or,
you know, this is what you do for work.

Like there's so many other labels
and things that make a whole person.

And I think when you fall into the
mentality of only focusing on the negative

ones, yeah, you, yeah, it's, it's.

It's, it is.

It's limiting.

Yeah.

Sam: Or the ones that are like, perhaps
we could even reframe them as like, you

could be proud of what you've gotten past
or what you've endured, let's say, maybe

you haven't gotten past it entirely.

Ali: Right.

Which is, you know, yeah.

everyone has certain barriers.

Yeah.

If you're able to either work with
or around your barrier, you know,

those things that everybody has.

But yeah, like to just be
defined by simply all the things

that you've struggled with.

I don't want to be defined by my struggle.

Yeah, that's

right.

Sam: Oh, that's right.

Oh, you don't want to
be, yeah, that's right.

You don't want to only be,
oh, you know, I recovered from

this enormous setback in life.

It's like, well, okay, what else?

Yeah.

Joe: I think, yeah, I think the
trauma is the big one that people

that turned into their identity in
the last little while and trauma has

been expanded to be this hugely much
broader term for something that was

like shell shock a hundred years ago.

But now it's live.

Yeah.

Could be all kinds of things
that I wouldn't consider trauma.

Sam: Agreed.

Joe: And then, then the trauma becomes
I'm the victim of this trauma and that's

who I am and now I'm going to focus
On this thing in the past, so not in

the present where I'm living my life.

This thing in the past will now define me
and I like, so I would say that process

trauma, if you're able to, as best as you
possibly can, and then get on with life

as best as you possibly can, you know, and
don't make that your, your whole identity.

Sam: Also, I wanna broaden this
out a little bit into like getting

away from, say you've been.

You know, the classical victim in the
sense that like an event occurred, you

know, act of God or vehicle accident
or, you know, uh, intimate abuse of some

kind or, you know, any neglect or any
parental, you know, you saw something

nasty in the woodshed, you know, cold
comfort farm, Yeah, outside the classic

victim stuff to like, let's say there's
two, let's say there's two people, you

know, workplace relationship or a intimate
relationship or they're siblings or

whatever, and so leaving aside identity
or something particular happened to one

party, there's just two people that are
in an interaction over time and they

often So it's a share house situation and
everyone living under that roof believes

that they've given more and gotten less
than everybody else under that roof.

So that's a classic manifestation
or in a, you know, or in a intimate

relationship with, you know, two people.

One believes that they've...

They've been the worse off out of the two.

Yeah, like, it's what it is.

Well, they both believe that.

Ali: Yeah, they both believe that
the things that they have contributed

have not been appreciated, and then
they're resentful of their partner for,

Sam: yeah.

And their suffering has been
overlooked, or that their suffering

is greater than the exactly, yeah.

Joe: Or if you don't have anything
dramatic, you could just say you're a

victim of capitalism or a victim of the
government, or pretty much anyone on earth

could say they're a victim of something.

Sam: Well, this is where I'll push
back, though, because I think...

The only place where we really disagree,
or maybe it's not even a disagreement,

is I do think that if someone is
willing to say publicly that they're

a victim, then something is wrong.

So even if they're making it up in the
classical sense of like, you know, they're

pretending to have a disability or they're
pretending to, uh, you know, uh, a sexual

identity or something that, you know,
they're a fraud on some level, right?

But the fact that they're...

They're seeking attention in this way
and, they're shopping a story around on

the talk shows and it never happened.

This has happened over
and over and over again.

And you look at those people, and
of course, people feel outraged when

they realise they've been taken in.

And they bought that person's book
or they donated money or whatever

it was, and then they feel...

People get...

Like really furious when that
sort of thing is revealed.

Yeah.

The bell hooks thing.

Yes.

People absolutely would just...

Clarice, uh, what's her name?

Um, Patrice Couleurs.

Yeah.

She was like a BLM campaigner.

Ended up trousering a whole lot of money.

Yeah.

Bad.

Ali: It's awful, but yeah, like it
absolutely, it takes so much away

from any, yeah, any sort of, like
they're absolutely torn apart for it

because it's like, it feels like a real
betrayal to somebody who actually has.

Experienced, you know, any sort of
real, you know, um, experience of it.

And it's just, it's horrible.

It's horrifying seeing other people
use things that yeah, have been

deeply traumatizing just for financial
gain or for notoriety or for any

Sam: of those reasons.

For the attention, for the pity, the
compassion, the sympathy, the fame.

And of course, uh, the
money, uh, what was her name?

Cancer, cookbook, and
she didn't have cancer.

Bell Hooks.

Oh yeah, sorry.

Bell Gibson.

Ali: Bell Gibson.

That's it.

Sorry, that's my um, that's my bad.

I'm thinking of someone.

Yeah.

Sam: Bell Gibson.

That's right.

Not Mel.

Bell Gibson.

One of the most bizarre stories.

Yeah.

She

Ali: had brain cancer.

Like that meme.

Well, that reel constantly pops up on
my Tik Tok of like where she's being

interviewed and she's like, so you
died twice on the operating table.

You've had, you know, you've had brain
cancer, you've, you've cured it with,

you don't, you all like the, the list of
things that she had was extraordinary.

Like absolutely.

Who would make this up?

Yeah.

Like it was, it was
absolutely extraordinary.

And like.

Cause I remember seeing her cookbook at
the time and like, and just looking at

it and thinking, Oh, these look actually
like half decent recipes and stuff, like,

Sam: you know, but a bunch of raw food.

Yeah.

But like,

Joe: imagine like, they're making a
Netflix series about her at the moment.

Awesome.

Sam: You know, you've made it.

Yeah.

Anyway, go on.

Sorry.

Ali: was going to say, but it's like a
lot of those ones, like, um, inventing

Anna and like, we love a fraud.

Oh, we do.

Well, Netflix loves a fraud.

Yes.

Sorry.

And what's the other Tinder

Sam: Swindler?

Yeah.

The dating app.

Joe: So, the instinct is, look at me,
and in her case, give me lots of money.

Now, the give me lots of money
probably everyone can relate to,

but the look at me is something

Sam: that can be...

The stolen valour really, really
grinds people's gears the wrong way,

but here's what I wanted to point to.

It reminds me of when something is
wrong with that person, let's all

agree, and are they having a good time?

So this is the thing, I think people
walked away from the Belle Gibson thing,

"that bitch, she took everyone's money,
she gave people false hope, she might

have even contributed to someone's
death", you know, I mean, that's all

true, and sure, begrudging the money
and the stolen valour, definitely,

but what's it like being that person?

That's where I often end up, and
it's an unpopular thing to ask about,

like, and I'm not defending her for
one second, but I'm just like...

Do you think she's having a fun time?

Like, I don't know

Ali: at what po like to
look at it from like Yeah.

Objectively and think what has gone
wrong or what has led her to think Yeah.

That this is the answer to her problems.

Yes.

Sam: That's the question I always ask.

Ali: What is, yeah, what
has, what has led to that?

It's that series of events.

'cause it's such an ex, I mean
her is such an extreme case of

it really is of that, but, um,

Joe: but, but that's the point, isn't it?

Eckhart's making, which is to
have any egoic identity in charge.

Sam: That's what I'm saying.

That's what I'm getting at.

I think we're all, we all
suffer is what I'm saying.

But to have

Joe: any in charge is,
is a form of sickness.

But what he's talking about is
what most people operate on,

which is, this is my identity.

I'm over here, we said at the
start about identity politics, I'm

over here and this is my identity.

I'm Joe the straight white guy who
wears tracksuits and has a mental

illness and a recovering addict
and I work in the film industry.

Now all of those things...

Are completely irrelevant to who
I actually am as consciousness or

what I would call loving awareness.

They're completely irrelevant.

They are, they are on top of
something that, that doesn't

need anything on top of it.

And all I need to do is rest in
that awareness and look, I have to

go out and function in the world
and provide food and whatever.

But basically whenever I, I
reify that, those identities.

I'm falling into a trap and that trap is
what leads to a lot of unhappiness in the

Ali: world.

I think like falling back into,
like, people falling into that trap

of like what you say, it's so easy
to gravitate towards falling into

that trap of becoming the victim.

There is a sense of...

Familiarity in the known outcome, as
in, I know when I say and, or do this

or identify in this way, there is
going to be some sort of perceived like

attention or sympathy or whatever it is.

yeah, feeling that need that, so it's a
known entity rather than perhaps branch

to proven strategy as a proven strategy
is to, to courageously go out then.

Free of labels and actually present
your, you know, a big complex

nuanced version of yourself.

That's very real.

The level of vulnerability that,
that is required to do that would be,

yeah, it would be, yeah, especially
if there's any sort of trauma

around that, you would be fearful.

So I think that's why people
are so quick to, you know, cause

that's the way the brain works.

It's once the easiest,
most comfortable pathway.

And so that's, like I said,
it's a known pathway to go, the

Sam: well worn path.

It really

Ali: is.

So I think that's why
people are so quick to.

Sam: And let things die of neglect,
you know, don't water the plant like

that as we were talking about recently.

What I would

Joe: say is take response, radically
take responsibility for everything you

possibly can take responsibility for.

And the only thing in my life that I'm not
sure how much responsibility I have for.

Is my bipolar because only because I
don't know how much of that is genetic

and I don't think science knows how
much of that's genetic or biological.

That's

Sam: true.

The gene, the gene of science has been
very disappointing on mental illness.

It's really come up with
nothing this whole time.

Yeah.

It's a

Joe: total myth.

It's a bit of a black box, but
everything else, like I need to look

for what my part in the problem was.

So every relationship.

Every, the state of my career,
uh, how much money I do or don't

get from the government, how much
money I do or don't owe the taxman.

All of that is my responsibility.

So that's the opposite of being a victim.

But then there's also, I think something
I've noticed with Ali and other people

is you can have Over responsibility.

And that's another way
the ego builds itself up.

It's like, I'll be responsible for all

these

Sam: people.

Everything rests on my shoulders.

I'm taking care of it.

Ali: Yeah.

That martyr sort of complex.

I mean, I've watched, I think, like,
I don't want to make generalizations

here, but I've watched a lot of
women, particularly older women and

who the expectation really was that
you had to do all these things.

But then it also became like,
well, it's the only thing I can

complain about, so I'm going to

Sam: weaponize

Ali: it.

Yeah, because it's all I have.

That's all I have.

And so I can see how
they've fallen into that.

But I've certainly witnessed,
particularly a lot of older women,

who've fallen into that martyr of...

Yeah, I've done everything for you.

I've had to do everything for you.

And

Sam: the impulse behind
it isn't wrong at all.

And this is what happens when you deny
people a meaningful role outside of that.

It's just what happens.

Maybe Joe was almost willing to
acknowledge this in a way by...

sort of satirizing the, oh, we're all
victims under capitalism, but like, okay.

You know, I think there's some
trust, some truth in that.

Joe: This is very crude terms,
but I think the left has a lot of

people who have a victim mentality.

And I think the right has people
who have an over, like overly active

sense of responsibility and want
to be responsible for things which

are none of their fucking business.

Sam: Are we talking the
traditional right here?

Or are we talking the neo right?

Look, we've got to sort this out because
the defining character of Marga and

Christian nationalism and Christian
identity is also being a victim.

It's the defining feature, man.

Yeah.

White people.

You can see what I'm talking about.

They're a

Ali: victim of big government
and a victim of the woke left.

White people are

Sam: being robbed.

Like they downsized the food packaging.

It's the woke.

Joe: no one's being over responsible then?

Sam: Everyone wants to take
their hands off the wheel.

Everyone.

Look, look, like the
billionaires are all like, oh no.

It wasn't me, I can't, what, uh, I'm
just in my bunker if anyone needs me.

I can't sort this out.

I didn't make this.

Everyone's wildly disavowing.

Everywhere you look.

Joe: Do you know what I mean though
about the right wanting to be

controlling of other people's, say,
reproductive rights or whatever?

It's an over responsibility for like,
oh, I'll take care of that and control

Sam: that.

If you want, yeah, no, I agree.

It's a

Ali: fucked up...

But then like the traditional right or the
libertarian right would very much be...

No.

Like, would not want to bar of

Sam: that.

Absolutely not.

Big government out.

Ali: Yeah.

No big government.

No one telling you what to do
with your body or anything,

Sam: or, yeah.

That's right.

And no one telling you what
to do with your workers.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's right.

Your roads or healthcare or anything.

You're on your own.

That's right.

Good luck.

Yeah.

Joe: I think the world would be a
much healthier place if everyone had

a healthy sense of responsibility.

Agreed.

For the planet and for everything else.

Sam: There is a version of small
C conservatism which goes...

You know, somewhat along the
lines of what you're thinking.

I don't know, I don't think there's
many of these people left where they're

like, uh, I have my obligations as a...

You know, a business person, and
a pillar of the community, and

da da da, and as a church member,
I have these responsibilities.

That's not what we're hearing now.

I mean, those people are still
around, but they tend to be

a little bit quieter, maybe.

Um, those proper conservatives, God bless
them, if there's any out there, like, tip

Joe: of the hat.

Well, your man, Jordan Peterson, who
I always have to make the disclaimer,

I'm not a Jordan Peterson pro.

Sam: He's a reactionary now, no.

But,

Joe: he was the first person I ever
heard say, What you need to do is take

on as much responsibility as you can.

He's the biggest

Ali: victim now.

He's a victim of feminism.

Sure, but

Sam: what he's saying...

Someone told me I have to find
this larger woman attractive.

Joe: But what he's
saying to younger men...

Oh my god, dude, he's a tissue.

What he's saying to younger men
that's really healthy is take on

as much responsibility as you can.

No, but he

Sam: stopped saying that a long time
ago and now it's everyone else's fault.

No, no, but

Joe: you guys are getting distracted
by the celebrity of Jordan Peterson.

I'm talking about...

The really wise message that he, that I
heard and I was like, I hadn't heard that.

Sam: agree.

There were some people that
liked him early on and it was the

Joe: individual responsibility message.

With my progressive left wing
upbringing, I wasn't told, take on as

much responsibility as you can handle
and see what happens to your life.

And then I look around and I see
the people that have done that that

aren't me, because I didn't do that.

Okay, sure.

And they're really successful.

Okay, alright.

And they're my peers, but they've taken on
more responsibility and been willing to...

Take on more stress and pressure
at work, for example, than I

have been and, you know, that
they've had more successful life.

I think it's good advice,

Ali: but similarly growing up in an
environment where very, where people

were very much pushed academically or
business wise and take on all that.

I've seen a lot of people get
very burnt out living that kind

of, that, that responsibility
of what they're expected to do.

Maximizing constantly.

Yeah.

It's like to better yourself,
like not just to keep up

with the Joneses, but like.

You could be doing better in your career.

You could be doing better in, you know,
with your family and bigger house, bigger

everything, and it was never enough.

And so it's a constant, it's a goal.

The goalposts keep shifting.

So it's, uh,

Joe: so yeah, so what I, so what I

Sam: saw was perhaps the same with victim.

The victim frontier is ever receding
and I guess so is the illusion of like

taking charge and being in control.

I think both of those things are
ultimately illusions and fantasies

to return to the terminology.

Joe: Yeah, but I'm not talking
about being in control.

I'm talking about being
healthily responsible, which was

something that I, I, you know,
didn't learn until I got sober.

And I had to make that responsible
decision day after day to not pick up

a drink and then other responsibilities
suddenly seemed appealing when I'd been

brought up with a laissez faire, do what
you feel, just be, kind of attitude.

Unlike your upbringing, Ali, I wasn't, I
wasn't, you gotta understand, you gotta

understand, I was never, it was never
taught to me that there was anything

Uh, valorous in making money at all.

In fact, it was a little
bit shameful money.

It was a bit gross.

Oh, but wait a minute.

No, no,

Sam: no, but your parents were
acting in solidarity with people

that were asking for more money.

What do you mean?

From their employment.

Joe: Trade unions?

Yeah, yeah, sure.

But, like, the idea that being
successful in business, like, that

was just, like, the lamest thing ever.

Yeah.

Let alone trying to keep up with
the Joneses, like, who cares?

Sam: Australia wasn't all that
entrepreneurial back then, though.

Let's keep that in mind.

No,

Ali: yeah, I was going to say, and my dad
was probably the exception to the rule in

very much being, like, an entrepreneur.

But, I think, like, coming back to the
quote and having Like where I agree

with you, Joe, that, yeah, we should
have a healthy sense of responsibility.

The message needs to be in
healthy and at being a balance.

Because I think if you completely
ignore, you know, any sort of trauma

victim, you know, any sort of mindset
like that, you completely don't

acknowledge any sort of impact on it.

One, you're either just not processing
it and not working through it and it's

just becoming a problem in and of itself.

That's a problem.

That's right.

But I think.

You know, you could, if you could
use it in a way that like, yeah, as a

measure of your success, like, okay,
this has happened, but I have been able

to, yeah, overcome this barrier, I've
been able to work through this, or I

can work with this, or whatever it is.

I think that is a healthy way of
actually viewing any sort of perceived

victimhood where and similarly with
your sense of responsibility, it should

be within a healthy and measured way.

I think there really
needs to be a balance.

I think if it's all one or all
the other, like I think if you're

completely letting go of it.

Yeah.

I think that also does you a

Sam: disservice.

often the thing that we're, that
people will struggle to admit

is wrongdoing done to them.

Strange as that may sound, well,
there are, there are, there are

safe ones for them to talk about.

And then the real one
they don't talk about.

We've shared about this
a little bit, us three.

And then the other thing
we often struggle to admit.

We'll admit to the small sins, but we'll
really struggle to own up to the, the, the

things we're really the most ashamed of.

And so in the therapeutic process,
like you're getting as close

to the bone as possible, right?

And then you have to kind of integrate
the things that have happened to you.

You have to integrate them and
the things you've done, you have

to integrate them and by dwell.

And then, you know, you, so you
have this new picture of the self

that's emerging every, every moment.

Right.

And.

Well, hopefully it's moving.

Hopefully that picture is
changing in a good way.

And so you might have to kind of
take on the victim label temporarily.

And that's a stopping

Joe: place.

Did you read out the rest of the
quote about how therapists know that

people don't actually want their

Sam: problem solved?

Well, yeah, no, that's what
I was getting to, right?

I think you stopped before that bit.

No, no, I got to it because, uh...

So, as every therapist knows, the ego
does not want an end to its problems

because they are part of its identity.

Okay, so some therapists would actually
take issue with that, but I think

a lot would agree in broad terms.

So, I...

So, this

Joe: is the problem
with therapy, isn't it?

Which is, there has no end point.

Because...

But partly because of
this victim mentality.

Ordinary human

Sam: unhappiness and coming to a
balanced view of the self as being...

Responsible to the self and to others,
and also that, you know, things were

done and you have sinned against.

I think it's accepting
all of that and yeah.

Ali: I think, and we've talked
about this before on the show, like

a good therapist will be working
to make themselves redundant.

Yes.

So the whole point is at this point
in your life, I'm teaching you.

Giving you the tools to work through
whatever it is you need to work through

But hopefully you will get to a point
where You will be able to on the whole

manage this by yourself and yeah sure
things might come up and you might want

to come Back, but for the most part,
it's actually setting you up to be

able to live your life Like they don't

Joe: Sam said in the last episode
about yeah, the patient must

devise their own medicine and re
administer it Yes, that's right.

But I think what he's saying is if
What Eckhart's saying is if you have

a victim mentality, there will never
be an end to your therapy, because

Sam: you'll just...

It won't progress at all.

Yeah.

No, no.

A hundred percent.

You probably won't even get to
first base in therapy if you can't

contextualize it in some way.

Some, what some people struggle to do,
even though, is admit to being a victim.

It's strange enough to say, but

Ali: particularly with some things,
there's so much shame and guilt that

surrounds the event, whether it's of your
own, you know, whether it's something

you did or not, or something happened
to you, there can be so much guilt and

shame associated with those feelings
that is really hard to speak about.

And that's just why a lot of
those things, you know, people.

I mean, historically would never have
even shared diagnoses or things that were,

you know, or because you don't want to be
seen as less than or even if, yeah, like

weakness and moral, moral failure, moral
failure, or even if, yeah, if you were

a victim of, yeah, a crime or something
like that, it's like some, I should have

done this differently, I should have
done this, you know, so yeah, like I

shouldn't have been walking out at night,
I shouldn't have been left alone with

this person, whatever it is, like you,
you, you overanalyze every sort of choice,

Potential choice you think you had in that
situation, regardless of whether there

was actually any choice in it at all.

And most of the time, you know, if
you are a victim that there was no

choice, like that was what happened.

But yeah, the way we still see
it and have to move through and

process it, you, you do go over,
what could I have done differently

to have had a different outcome?

I think that's a natural
part of analyzing and pulling

Sam: apart.

You have to move through that part
and it is painful, but yeah, I agree

with you that that resonates a lot.

It, the clue I was going to try and, you
know, offer just a little one piece of

insight that I've got maybe about where
to look if this is ringing a bell with

anyone is like, look for those things
where you are trying to explain it to

yourself or like trying to figure out
what you should have done differently.

That's a clue to an area

Joe: of thinking what I should have done
differently about my most recent trauma.

But, I would say that I've never
let it become my full identity.

Yeah, alright.

Sam: Sure.

Well, I think you've had a lot
of other stuff to chew on along

the way that you've held on

Joe: to.

But I was plagued with obsessive thoughts
about some incidents and then a lot of

like thinking back over, if I had done
that differently then I never would

have been in that room or whatever.

Yeah, that's right.

That's probably true.

But, yeah, it's undoubtedly true that...

Things could have been different,
but that's the point about the past.

It's never going to change.

So it's about coming into the present and
maybe leaning slightly into the future.

And Eckhart would say, and I
agree with him, radically coming

into the present, like really...

Just like Ram Dass said, just be here
now, or as Eckhart said, the power of now.

But I was fortunate that I was able
to talk about what had happened to

me with friends and a therapist.

So I'm not saying don't process trauma.

I'm saying don't let a trauma define
you or become integral to your identity.

Yeah, I would say that.

Now the irony is after those
traumatic events I did feel some

need to build a new egoic identity.

So suddenly I went out and like
bought bright tracksuits and

started like posting photos on
social media and wanting attention.

And it was a, it was
like a trauma response.

It was like, I'm still here.

In fact, I'm like louder and
brighter and bigger than ever.

So it was like a way of puffing myself up,
which is all fine, but if I never stop and

then rest in that awareness, then I'm, I'm
cheating myself of my brief experience of

consciousness, like I'm cheating myself of
what I've found to be the most profound.

Experience of reality that I've
found, you know, if all I am is a

guy in a bright track suit with a
podcast, that's all ego stuff, right?

Yeah, that's true.

Ali: Like, but I think it's, it's,
it's not a part to be completely

ignored or minimized as part of the
process of getting through that trauma.

I think, and when you then come to the
other side of it, that will be a hot.

One piece of the puzzle and it'll feel
yeah that I needed to go through that

as a response to what happened Yeah,
in order to actually let go of it.

It's you know, it's not

Sam: linear So don't make the mistake
of going, you know, Joe's right.

Oh god.

What a pathetic Self, pitying
victim I've been this whole time.

Yeah, Joe's right.

I really, God, the amount
of time I've wasted on this.

Don't make the mistake of like
now feeling guilty about that.

It's just go, okay,
that's what it had to be.

Yeah.

And now, cause I mean, I've
wasted time on it too, but I

should have said this upfront.

Like this, the reason this quote resonates
for me is God, I mean, yes, I've done

an awful lot of that and it, yeah, it
gets in the way of good stuff, gets

in the way of owning up to what you.

Have done to other people in, in
fact, I think a lot of the time,

the purpose of clinging to it
is to ignore or rationalize what

Ali: you've done to other people.

Yeah, to rationalize the shitty behavior.

Well, I, I responded this way
because I was traumatized myself.

That's it.

And it completely absolving itself of...

It's okay for me to keep
acting this way because of...

Yeah, which is, yeah, horrible.

No, stop doing that.

That's how it uses me.

Perpetrate.

Well, yeah, well, people who have
been abused have perpetrated abuse.

Sam: Exactly.

And I firmly believe that all bullies
begin as victims and vice versa.

And like, like there's, that's why
Joe is, there's an inescapable kind of

truth to what you're saying, which is
at some point the buck stops with me.

Like you do, you have to get
there at some point, but like

you do, but Ali's also right.

You have to move through all
these phases to get there and

like, have that awareness.

You know, maybe I could
have done this faster.

Maybe I couldn't have.

I've talked before about like the grief
I felt at every stage of advancement

in therapy, simply because, oh, well,
finally, I've made this thing better.

Oh, no, I could have and
should have done this sooner.

Look at what has been lost
in me not doing this sooner.

There's a, there's a

Ali: grief for, yeah, lost time
or, you know, what could have been.

And I've, I've really experienced a lot
of that, like going through therapy in

that it's like, ah, if I hadn't, God,
I would have, it's, yeah, it's like

the loss of an imagined future you had
for yourself that 20 years ago, things

would have been so different for me.

It's not how it works.

And, and

Sam: the loss of a better past,
like in a parallel universe, you

know, this would have happened

Ali: instead.

And that's the thing.

There's absolutely, my psych would say,
well, there's absolutely no guarantee

that that's how it would have worked out
for you, but it's not, but it's, you're,

there's safety in the fantasy because
you're, and that, and that's what it is.

Cause it's still a fantasy.

Whereas yeah, it's actually stepping
into like, yeah, into a known thing is.

Well, into something that you
can know is brave, whereas

staying in this fantasy is safe.

Sam: Yes, that's right.

Exactly.

100 percent safe, but
deadly and dangerous.

And we have to, to the
greatest extent possible.

So to rephrase what you said, we all have
to take as much responsibility as we can.

I'm going to just retwist
that a little bit.

We all, we all have interdependence
with one another and we all have

to honour the, those that are
depending on us and vice versa.

Right.

And so.

And we all have to let go of as
much fantasy as we can, as fast

as we can, is how I would put it.

So, I finally found the Lacan quote.

This was making me, think about...

Actually, no, this is Véronique
Voreuze and Bogdan Wolf, um,

from their book, The Later Lacan.

The real invention of the subject that
anchors him or her in language, right?

So all those victim statements,
it's all in language, right?

So pay attention to the language.

Psychoanalysis may not seek to
remove the symptom, and so not be a

therapy in the usual sense, yet it
has profoundly therapeutic effects.

So in what one, so in what way
does psychoanalysis improve

the life of a given subject?

Just goes to your sort of, are we
being sceptical about therapy here?

Following the later Lacan, the analyst
takes his or her bearings from the

fantasy, rather than the meaning.

of the symptoms complained about
and the therapeutic benefits proceed

from a radical decrease in suffering
obtained not through an eradication

of the symptom, and then it uses some
jargon here, but through a reduction

of the symptom to the synthome.

So, I don't know what that means, but
I think I get where this is going.

The reduction entails an isolation
of and separation from the fantasy.

This analytic strategy, driven by
what Lacan was first to recognize as

the desire of the analyst, denotes an
uncompromising belief in the possibility

that the dignity of the subject can
return in the separation from the fantasy.

Joe: I don't, yeah, I
don't know what the...

Lakan is always, incomprehensible.

I think he's, in the fantasy means
in the context of that quote.

Sam: Lakan is in some ways a fraud,
and in some ways a raving mystic.

Hesitant

Joe: as I am to even try and
get into a Lakan conversation.

Hang on, I've nearly...

It's not clear in that
quote what the fantasy

Sam: means.

No, I've nearly finished it.

It's, well, it's how I was discussing

Joe: it the other week.

What's the fantasy for a victim?

So,

Sam: the, the fantasy of, sort
of, this pure platonic victimhood.

It's a fantasy.

I have wro no,

Joe: I have wronged it as well.

Yeah, and how I overcame, say, my
trauma from my last relationship

was to really radically own...

My part in things, which was always
very prominent, and there was nothing

that happened to me that I didn't
put myself in a position to happen.

Sam: Well, let's not go
too far the other way.

Let's not go too far the other way.

That's how I overcame it.

Well, okay,

Joe: that's fair then.

So the fantasy was what you said,
the fantasy was that I was a victim,

an innocent somehow victim, and I

Sam: felt that...

Purely, purely and entirely

Joe: a victim.

But in every case I made choices which
put myself in a position to be harmed.

Ali: You see, I think that's
victim blaming though.

Of myself?

Of yourself, it is.

But I don't identify.

But I, but,

Joe: because I think, yeah,
they're, they're, I identify

as something that, someone who
had some bad shit happen to me.

Because there was

Ali: absolutely going to
be people and circumstances

where that is not applicable.

Correct.

Where they, there's absolutely
nothing they could've or

would've done where it would've,

Joe: yeah.

Exactly, but if it's a relationship that
you kept, Day by day choosing to stay

in or go into, or go further into, and
you look back and you can remember all

those red flags that you've braved past.

Ali: It's easy in hindsight, isn't it?

Yeah, but it's a time.

But what

Joe: I'm saying is, I actually think
this is a key to getting over things.

There's some things which you can't
take any responsibility for, like

child sex abuse, but there's a lot of
adult things that people don't real...

Don't stop and think, what was my part?

Okay, you're right.

What did I do even a year before
this happened that put me in

Sam: this position?

Can we agree though,
responsibility in the past...

Be it hard to pin down.

Responsibility in the present, also
difficult, but it's the one That's

Joe: why I say radical responsibility.

So I say look really hard.

Okay.

And find

Sam: where you were responsible.

Let's, okay, so it's an ambit claim.

Let's go for 100 percent and then we'll
fall back to wherever reality lies.

Okay.

Joe: Sure.

Sure.

No, I'm not really saying
there's an ambit thing.

I'm saying...

Well, in this particular case, I
can take full responsibility and

then, and then I can overcome it
because it's like, Oh man, well,

Sam: I guess Jesus is getting
nailed to the cross and he's like,

yeah, yeah, this, I did this,

Joe: I chose this.

But are you still going to try and
explain this Lakhan quote, which is

basically like a whole nother episode?

Well, no,

Sam: no, it's, I think this will
be in another episode, but I

think this is not as difficult.

Um, now that I've read it five or

Joe: six times, I like that last bit
you said about the, the quote about the,

Sam: subject.

Okay.

So, and so the therapist has
to have, so basically the

desire of the analyst, right?

An uncompromising belief in the
possibility that the dignity of

the subject can return in the
separation from the fantasy.

That's the bit

Joe: I like, except I don't
know what the fantasy is.

It's just any,

Sam: any thought that
you actively maintain.

You know, like a positive or
negative self image or a positive

or negative idea of others, there's
just anything that's not real.

Anything that's not

Joe: real is the fantasy.

I'm talking about the
dignity of the subject.

When I say take responsibility and look
for your part in things, what you'll

get back eventually is the dignity

Sam: of the subject.

That's what, and that's what we
should always be striving for.

Joe: Yeah.

Which is the opposite of being a victim,
the opposite of, sorry, the opposite of

having a victim identity is to have a.

Fully responsible identity.

Sam: Well, and ultimately what
a lot of victim, uh, victims

are seeking is, is that dignity.

And often in clinging to the label,
they are seeking that dignity.

They're asking to be given it.

But perhaps what you're saying
is stop waiting for others to

give it to you or whatever.

And you know, like the child that...

The cries and then nothing happens
and you cry a bit more and nothing

happens, and then you really cry and
then someone comes and soothes you,

you know, like what Allie was saying.

And at some point the self-soothing
has to come in or none of your

relationships are gonna succeed.

But like, so to continue the quote, it is
the fantasy that gives consistency to the

other with the big O, the big other, and
a consistent other commands, alienation.

So the victim has.

So the capital V victim has
the capital O other, right?

You know, John Howard, or the person
who assaulted me, or for MAGA people,

it's woke, and communists, and
whoever that are ruining everything.

Consistent other commands alienation.

Dignity, then, for the neurotic
subject is asserted in a process of

separation from one's own investment
in one's position of alienation.

So...

We first discover that we're alienated.

Under capitalism, everyone is alienated.

That's like a fundamental, it's
like an axiom of Marxism, right?

All workers are alienated
from their labor.

They're alienated from
their humanity, ultimately.

So you have to discover your
alienation, and then you have

to accept it and embrace it.

To an extent and understand what it
means and then you have to try to

begin moving beyond your alienation
through Connection to others basically

equality with deliberate choosing to
have equality with other human beings.

That's where it's at This is yeah,

Joe: this is pretty hot.

This is you like nerding out Like,
you're just going, this one is for the

Sam stans out there, they're just gonna
like, whoa, they've just let Sam off the

leash, or no, like, because you've gone
beyond what I can, like, what, what else?

You can edit

Sam: it if you want, but
like, I think it's very clear.

To, to, to, to,

Joe: to, to quote my favorite catchphrase.

Sam: Stop investing in your
own sense of alienation and try

to make connection and, yeah.

Joe: I think we should finish up.

But, tell me this Sam, I didn't
really understand that Lacan quote,

I won't be the only one out there.

Sam: When I read it a
fifth time, you'll get it.

Joe: But what about the, so the
dignity of the subject, I got that bit.

Sam: That makes sense.

Doesn't it?

Joe: And, uh, and

Sam: the separation from the fantasy.

Joe: You were talking earlier about
having a healthy self as a result

of 10 years, say, of therapy.

Sure.

But what about the fact that the
separate self is an illusion?

I don't know.

I tend to go.

So there's a, there's not a contradiction.

There's a paradox here that I
have to grapple with, which is.

My experience, my phenomenological
experience from, anyone can do this

in meditation, just by closing their
eyes, is that the separate self is a

complete illusion, and it's a cause
of much suffering, that illusion.

But I need a healthy social self to
function in the world, and I think what

therapy does If successful is allows
me to have a healthy social self, but

I always need to remember that's just a
construction and that basically Joe In

the track suit, he's just like an action
figure placed in the world by this loving

awareness, which I would call God, and I'm
moving around and I'm acting in the world,

but it's, it's not, it's not reality.

No, no, no.

get it.

I get it.

Do you

get that?

Absolutely.

So, in a way, going to a therapist
is a bit like taking your action

figure to a, to a, to a toy store.

Yeah, toy repair place.

Yeah, and you just get it worked
out a bit and now it's it's it's

doing more stuff and it's better
But I don't deeper than that.

It's it doesn't matter that much.

No, I get ya I get how
healthy your illusory self is.

Yeah.

Yeah, because you're only
working on an imaginary thing

There's always a further
frontier That's what I'm saying.

Like, yeah, but can

you, but can you integrate
Lacanian psychoanalysis

with an understanding of non

duality?

Sam: Of course.

No, I think that's what it's
why I keep coming back to

Zizek Sorry everyone like that.

We've got the

Joe: Yeah, maybe one day
we'll just do a Zizek episode.

You can try and Sam's

Sam: playing Zizek.

No, no, I don't understand What I
do what I do sort of grasp is that

he's managed to kind of Bring ideas
from like Pauline Christianity,

and Marx, and Hegel, and Freud, and
basically, so the way he's integrated

the Western canon with the, with the

you know, with the New Testament, but
he's also integrated that with Marxism

and like a account of human dignity, which
is relevant to what we're talking about.

It's all about human dignity.

That's the whole project

Joe: I was just talking
about the illusion of

Sam: the separate self.

Well, right.

Okay.

So to get back to the paradox
you're talking about We can't work.

We can't operate without Individuality
and we can't operate as individuals

Like, both things are true.

Like the idea that you can live your life
as an individual is complete nonsense.

Like from the moment you're
born and people wipe your

ass and feed you baby food.

And like the idea that like I stand alone
and this, this, it's a fantasy, right?

So it's, I mean, in the psychoanalytical
sense, it's a, it's a disabling fantasy.

I stand alone and you can
experience aloneness as a, As

a, as a form of victimhood.

You can experience it as a form of
empowerment and strength, but like

fundamentally, we have to be alone,
but we also have to be with others.

There's no escaping our duty to others.

There's no escaping our duty to the self.

We're we're stuck on the horns
of these paradoxes constantly.

And ultimately they're not paradoxes.

And in therapy, you're not just working
on yourself, you're actually working

on who you are as a social being.

Yes.

Yeah.

And that is like in the, in a
sense, what matters more than

who you are when you're alone.

Yeah.

Ali: Because that's what's up.

Yeah.

Because that's, that's actually
gonna impact everybody else.

Yes.

Rather than like, yeah.

If you alone in your room
doing nothing like isn't gonna

Sam: impact, well, that's
knock yourself out doing it.

That's the other side

Joe: of, of, of a non-dual understanding
of reality is complete interdependence.

Correct.

Yes.

There's not three people in this room.

There's just one awareness.

With three separate
layers of conditioning.

Sam: That's right.

And what we talk about a
lot is our conditioning.

Yes.

So you are conditioning in a.

Center right, business focused
upbringing, you're conditioning

in a Hare Krishna upbringing and
my conditioning in a left wing,

communist, anarchist upbringing, right?

So that's what makes...

It just gives us different flavors.

It does.

But our awareness, our
consciousness, while we're here

in this garage, is not separate.

No.

It's just having a slightly
altered experience of itself in

three different spatial places.

But it's not separate.

I think we've arrived at a, I think all
three of us have arrived at a complex and

sophisticated synthesis in our own ways.

Other

Joe: than that, we've just been talking.

Absolute rubbish

Sam: for 20 minutes.

That's absolutely correct as well.

Uh,

Joe: yeah, yeah.

It's always bad when Ali
goes quiet for 20 minutes.

Ali: No, no, it's like, I, it's like,
I really get to like, I'm like, I'm

listening with intent and I just,
it's, yeah, I get stuck in that sort

of, I, I'm, yeah, I don't want to
say anything because I'm actually

listening and just taking it all in and.

Appreciating it for what it is.

And I, I, as someone who's actually
obviously a part of this show, it

should be something I need to be
mindful of, but I should interject with

a thought, but, but for the most, but
sometimes, yeah, I'm just sitting there

just like, oh, this is fascinating.

And then, yeah, and thinking
about like the brains going, you

know, at a hundred miles an hour.

So there's just no.

Joe: But I'm relying on you as the
token Atheist Rational Materialist

to step in and be like, no, of course
the self and self's not an illusion.

I've got mine over here.

Thanks.

Sam: Because you really are
alone in the Atheism because

I really am a non committal.

Yeah, and

Joe: you were drenched in
spirituality growing up.

Sam: Oh, deeply.

And I've said this before, I almost had
that medieval experience of religion,

when it was real shit, like it was
thick, like, you know, like thick.

Joe: But that's the point, Ali,
take us to task, take me to task

on any of the spiritual shit

Ali: I say.

But am I not allowed to appreciate,
like, the discussion around it without

Joe: Well, you're not open minded.

Sam: Without activating her.

Activate atheist mode.

Must counteract.

Joe: She must, because it's not
like she walks away thinking, Oh

yeah, maybe I will start to have
a curiosity about a higher power.

Sam: Joe wants you to be your
paper cutout and he'll be his

and we'll all act our roles.

Joe: But you don't have curiosity
about spirituality really.

Sam: I

Ali: think you've got curiosity.

I do around the cultural
community sort of sense.

And the phenomenology of it.

Yeah, like, yeah, there's a, there's a
fascination with it, but there's not a.

Desire to be.

Which you

Joe: either have to have an experience
with it, like a felt experience with

it, or it doesn't make any sense.

Sam: Yeah, I'd agree.

But you've

Joe: never tried to do that either.

Ali: No, it's just never, it's
never occurred to me that it's

something I want or need in my life.

Joe: But then when you, when this show
came out, you started listening to us and.

Ali: I find it fascinating.

It's fascinating.

I find it fascinating as a thing to.

Joe: From the outside, like an
anthropologist or something.

Sam: How wonderfully non egoic of you.

Not enacting the role of the
victim or the perpetrator.

You're just like, I'm just listening.

Ali: I'm just listening.

It's something I'm interested

Sam: in.

No, it's true.

I think when I'm doing my best
pod listening, it is very, the

self almost vanishes sometimes.

You're just grokking the consciousness.

Yes.

Like it's cool.

Ali: That's what it is.

It is.

You just, yeah, you're just sitting back
and letting somebody else speak and.

Put something together in a way that
I would never have thought to put.

Myself, because I don't have those
thoughts, feelings or desires, but

it's definitely a, yeah, it's still
a fascination and an appreciation for

what it is.

Sam: That's right.

And also I'll give you credit.

My Lakan digression in this episode, it
was Ali, you said something and then I

immediately started looking through the.

Not immediately.

I, a couple of minutes later I went,
yes, there's something in the WhatsApp.

I screenshotted this Lacan thing
and I managed to find it in the

hundreds of images in there.

like you were the inspiration for
that with the 'cause you took it

back to therapy and that Yeah.

Joe: Well, no, it's a form of atheism.

That's not the Richard Dawkins Yes.

Atheism.

Correct.

So you don't have the instinct
to come in and try and destroy

Sam: No, no.

Ali: Mike, no.

Absolutely not.

Nothing to prove.

Nothing to prove Nothing.

Yeah.

No, I absolutely, I, I don't.

I don't see any point in pulling
apart anyone else's belief system.

It doesn't, you know, I think the
only time I would ever comment or feel

like I would, the need to interject
as if I felt there was harm or some

sort of harm being perpetrated.

And I don't see talking about it as
anything harmful, the same as I don't

see it harmful, someone going to
church or a mosque or participating

in any sort of spiritual practice that
brings them joy and, you know, comfort.

Because I think that was the
biggest thing I took from.

My grandmother, who was deeply
Catholic, was that it brought

her so much comfort in her life.

And I appreciated it for what that was
rather than necessary a belief in it.

It's not like, Oh, I want to get
a bit of that, but I just, yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

That's right.

It's working for you, man.

Whatever gets you through the day.

Yeah.

Joe: I find that incredibly condescending.

Because what you're discounting
is that she might have been

having a spiritual experience.

No, but

Ali: I'm not even saying that she wasn't,
but I'm saying I've never had one so

it's not something I can speak to.

Could happen to you though.

It could, I'm not saying it couldn't,
but I find it unlikely just because it's

nothing I've had an experience of before.

Joe: But also the non duality thing, the
thing about exploring whether there's

a separate self, it doesn't have to be
spiritual, it's just an investigation.

It's just asking a few questions with
your eyes closed a few times in a row

and suddenly something will become very
obvious, which was not obvious before

because it's right on the surface.

Anyway, I think we should wrap it up.

Well, that's right, man.

Sam: Ultimately, you have to get

Joe: past all the labels, man.

Another few of the 10, 000 things.

We're getting through a few now.

We are.

Thanks, Sam.

Oh,

Sam: thanks, Joe.

I just want to say, before
you, well, thanks, Ali.

Sorry, going over your thanks there.

Joe: No, no.

We'll let Sam do another thing.

Today, this

Sam: ep marks the official,
Ali's done as many eps with

us as we did before, I think.

My count is correct.

Just had a look at the stats before.

Yeah, I updated some tags.

Joe: When does her probation period end?

Sam: Uh, I think it's officially over.

There you go.

Joe: A while ago.

A while ago.

Good to have a diversity hiring,

Sam: officially.

Look, I think this DEI policy's
worked out really well.

Yeah, um, yeah, that's right.

Well, I mean, that's the...

Geeks have thoughts too, who knew?

Joe: That's right.

I know.

Sam: People with, that's right.

People with CPTSD have voices also.

That's right.

Um, and we, and the PMDD, I'm
looking forward to that one.

Oh, and earlier you two
were talking about...

Food.

And I was like, Oh man, we're
all going to have something to

talk about on the food episode.

Anyway, that's a preview for next time.

Well, as Joe said, this has

Joe: been.

The 10, 000 things.

Yeah.

Two or three of.

That's right.

See you all next week.

Yeah.

Sam: We're just improv ing this
outro till we find one we like.

Bye.

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