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The Pilot Project Podcast is an aviation podcast that aims to help new pilots learn what it takes to succeed in the world of flight, to help people in the flight training system learn what they may want to fly, and to give Canadians and the world a peek into life on the flight deck in the RCAF. We want to help pilots succeed and thrive! We interview real RCAF pilots for their exciting stories as well as the lessons they've learned along the way. We'll learn their tips to develop resilience and the tools it takes to make it in flight training.
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Bryan:Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot project podcast, the best source for stories and advice from RCAF and mission aviation pilots brought to you by Sky's Magazine. I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is Trevor Juby, a retired RCAF lieutenant colonel and current base chief pilot with Powell Aerospace in Curacao, and Pat Lalonde, a retired RCAF master warrant officer and current tactical coordinator and mission commander with Powell Aerospace in Curacao. Guys, welcome back to the show, and I'm really looking forward to this.
Bryan:Listeners can check out part one to hear about Trevor and Pat's early career and what led them to their early flying experiences. Now for part two, we're going to focus on some of their operational experiences and start discussing their role down with PAL Aerospace and the Dutch Caribbean Coast Guard. So we're gonna shift back to Pat and talk about some of his operational experiences in the RCAF. So Pat, we've said you were unexpectedly switched to a posting at 407 Maritime Maritime Patrol Squadron in Comox BC. What was life like on an operational squadron for a new ASOP and how did it compare to your previous life in the army?
Pat:You know, even looking back this far out, it was probably the best time that I had was as a brand new guy arriving on squadron. I made the move, I arrived, I unpacked and there was only two of us that were new sensor operators on the squadron. So everything that happened was literally take the new guy with you, take the new guy with you. I only had three flights on the squadron and then it was like, yep, there's a crew going to San Diego for a month. Pack your bags, you're going with them.
Bryan:Nice.
Pat:Yeah, that was my first month on the squadron. I just looked at my logbook and it was in. I flew three times and then it's like go to California for a month and was spent a month chasing submarines and flying around warships and and you know, doing that that naval warfare thing, it was great. And when you got back from that, I'm still the only new there's still only two new guys. Yeah.
Pat:Okay. Crew five is going on this exercise. So, yep, take the new guy with you. They're like, oh, I'm going again. It's like it it it would I spent a lot of time away from home, but it was always new training opportunity, a new a new training opportunity one after the other.
Pat:So that I I look back on it and that time as a brand new, brand new guy on the squadron was great because everybody wanted to take the new guy to learn stuff. So it was always one trip after another, one training exercise after another. I'd say even looking at it back now that it was the best of time.
Bryan:Four zero seven Squadron is known for getting to go to a lot of amazing places for exercises. What was your favorite destination and what was the biggest thing you learned in those years with all those great training opportunities?
Pat:So in those years when I was a brand new guy, we went a lot of places. So my family doesn't feel bad for me that I went to Hawaii at least five or six times a year, sometimes for a month or two. So it's difficult to explain to family members that, Oh, I don't want to go to work. I have to go to Hawaii one more time. So you don't get a lot of sympathy, but Hawaii was a regular place for four or seven Squadron for either things like Rimpak in July, or we went for two weeks at a time sometimes for a U.
Pat:Submarine commander scores to practice ASW. But I also almost went once a month to California, to San Diego. And out of all the years that I spent in Comox, San Diego was my favorite place to go. It's probably my favorite city in North America, but the training there was always really good. There was a great base to fly from.
Pat:There was always submarines to train on. There was always aircraft carriers and warships and complex exercises. You just crammed so much into two weeks and it was always, you learned new tactics. You learned how to work in broader air campaigns and naval campaigns. It was always something new and new place to experience.
Pat:And as I went back multiple times, I knew where to go. I got used to where to go, where to eat, where to stay. I absolutely can't say anything bad about operating out of anywhere in San Diego as an Aurora guy.
Bryan:Yeah, I did my checkride in San Diego and what an amazing city. It's just like the weather is great, the scenery is great, flying out of North Island was really cool. Yeah. I I agree. I don't have anything bad to say about San Diego.
Pat:Yeah. It's it's the perfect place to to to be deployed to. And the the training that happens out of that base is just second to none.
Bryan:So you also took part in the effort to oust Gaddafi in OP Mobile. Can you tell us about your experiences there and what was the mission of the Aurora?
Pat:Yeah. So that was, that was in 2011 and I knew that two things were coming to an end at the time was my time on the high readiness crew was within a month or so to end. And I knew that from talking to the career manager that I was posted that year as well. So my brain was on, okay, the time at the squadron is winding down. And then all of sudden one day on a Saturday morning, the phone rang.
Pat:I was the lead sensor operator still on the high readiness crew. And the flight commander said, I need you to pack your bags for probably fifty six days. You might be leaving today. We don't know yet. If you don't hear anything, come in with your bags on Monday morning, call your guys.
Pat:Yeah. Okay. So I went through the evolution of calling the other sensor operators on the crew and explained to them that, A, yes, I know it's early on Saturday. No, this is not a joke. Pack your bags.
Pat:And nothing through the weekend. And then on Monday morning, did us, we were told showed up with my bags. And then it was the massive effort of getting through the DAG process and before lunch because we were planning to take off and head for Greenwood in the afternoon.
Trevor:Wow. Was like,
Pat:woah, this is fast.
Bryan:You were supposed to DAG. What does DAG stand for again? Can you remember?
Pat:Departure Assistance Group, I think it was.
Bryan:Basically for the listeners, it is a huge checklist that you need to get signed off from all the various places on base. Basically saying, yes, this person is ready to deploy.
Pat:Yeah. So we went through that process, loaded the airplane with everyone, everybody's luggage, all the mission equipment that we were gonna take with us. And, we left for Greenwood and, arrived that night. And then the next morning it was like, the deployment might be canceled. Don't get your hopes up.
Pat:An election was called. So we thought the government's not gonna do anything now and went to went to bed. And then, the next morning knocking on my door is our tech nav, Kurt Luneberg knocking on the door says, Pat, I know you're Let me know if you're awake enough to have a conversation. So I said, yeah, it goes, we're leaving like right now.
Bryan:Okay.
Pat:So, we went through the evolution of reloading the airplane and getting going and, no destination in mind. We were told take off, head to the East and we'll call you to tell you what base or what country you need to land in.
Bryan:That's crazy. Man, that must have been fairly stressful for the crew commander.
Pat:Oh, yeah. Yeah. You can't can't really plan for anything. And then of course we had we had nothing at the other end. Derek Hock was the was major and he was detachment commander at the time came with came with our crew.
Pat:And eventually it was decided we were going to Sigonella in Sicily, which is great because it's a familiar base to the Aurora fleet. We went on exercise there a couple of times a year. So we ended up there and the typical, you know, RotoZero things. We landed and it was like, a place to stay, find some cars, everything from scratch. So that's what I love about RotoZero is the lines haven't been drawn for you yet.
Pat:So you gotta figure it out. You get to set it all up. So it was a really exciting time to set up a brand new operation from scratch. And then of course, start operational flying almost immediately. So doing setup life and fly your missions at the same time.
Pat:It was an exciting time and it was very challenging for everybody involved.
Bryan:And what was the mission at that time for the Aurora?
Pat:So for us at the beginning, it was embargo enforcement on weapons coming in. So our first few missions were sort of parked in a box over to Mediterranean, looking for suspicious vessels, bringing in weapons into Libya. But that did not last very long. I think we only did two of those missions before the focus became entirely on the war on land. So we would hang out just off the shore with sensors and essentially look for activity to report back with intelligence on what was happening on the ground in Libya.
Pat:And that also quickly morphed into now we were cooperating with allied assets, looking for targets for the fighters to strike. It was very dynamic. Thankfully at the time we had already been practicing and training the overland mission during exercises for the last two, three years. But it was a lot of developing procedures on the fly because we hadn't practiced all of these things. The situation on the ground was sometimes very confusing.
Pat:So again, it was very exciting because we had to basically invent new procedures and new ways of doing things as we were doing them and responding to a situation on the ground that wasn't always clear. So it was about as challenging as it could get at the time for for flying in the LRP fleet.
Bryan:Yeah. I I sort of had a similar experience doing Rotozero in Kuwait over Iraq. It's exciting and you're kind of, like you said, you're not you're not making it up as you go, but, like, there is a certain amount of of figuring things out as you as you go along and it is an exciting time. Did you witness or take part in anything exciting or was it a lot of long quiet patrols?
Pat:It's the LRP fleet, so there's always 90% boredom, and interrupted by 10% of of sheer terror.
Bryan:Yeah.
Pat:So the the 10% were always fun. You know, I I remember being tasked on a mission and we were looking for mobile Scud launchers. And as a teenager, I grew up glued to watching CNN during the Gulf War. And I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm looking for what Scud missiles? I'm sorry, like what year is this?
Pat:And following tanks and coordinating strikes by Canadian F-18s was something that was new. We had never really trained for that, but it was exciting to watch, not just watch, but be in the middle of an actual air war and court it, know, having to pay attention all of sudden to things like the air tasking orders and what AWACS are we working with today.
Bryan:And for the listeners, AWACS is airborne warning and control system. It's basically the airplane you see with a giant radar sitting on its back, and it essentially works as an airborne air traffic controller as well as threat detection and a number of other functions.
Pat:What ships are available in in the area, it's it was an actual full spectrum operation and professionally it was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to be like. It it was really, really good.
Bryan:That's awesome. So you were whisked away to Ottawa for a ground job, but as per tradition in your career, you were quickly posted back to four zero seven Squadron as ASOP training officer, ASOP standards officer, and senior ASOP where you reached the rank of master warrant officer. During this tour, you deployed to OpImpact for nine months and flew 31 missions while holding a full time ground job. For a lot of us in the Aurora community, this time period was very challenging. How was it for you?
Pat:About as challenging as it would have been for everyone because everything of course was at the last minute. I had just come off, as you mentioned, a short posting in Ottawa, which was another, as soon as I unpacked, the career manager tells me turn around and go back. Took job back at four zero seven Squadron and train new people. And then all of a sudden, one day the stuff was starting to boil over in Iraq with ISIS. And I remember being in the ops lounge watching TV when the government announced, okay, we're sending jets, we're sending refuelers and we're also sending long range patrol aircraft.
Pat:And I looked at my boss and he said, go to clothing stores, get some tan colored gear and pack your bags. And I'm like, when? Oh, like now. Go to clothing stores immediately. A mouse panic service challenging because I a single parent at the time.
Pat:So I had to figure that out. Essentially, this was on a Wednesday, I deployed on the weekends and so I had to quickly make family arrangements and deploy to something we didn't know. Like before the crews arrived, such as yourself to the base in Kuwait. When we got there, I got off the C-seventeen and all we had was an ATCO trailer that had previously been on fire.
Bryan:Oh my gosh.
Pat:And yeah, exactly. And if you knew where to look, you could see the remnants of the fire that had been in there. And it was just me, Alex Yignac and Ray Townsend and it was like, okay, you need to set up a fully functional long range patrol detachment here with this and the airplanes arriving in a few days.
Bryan:That's crazy.
Pat:Yeah, so we had to tactically acquire a lot of things from vehicles for maintenance to haul parts to beds for the crews to sleep in. And there was a lot of competition for real estate because you also had a Hercules detachment showing up. You had the refueling jets, the air buses that were coming, all the support for the entire air task force and the joint task force, everybody was arriving at the same time. So it was a lot of, we worked a lot of twenty hour days to create a flying unit out of nothing.
Bryan:That's crazy. And just from the perspective of the people who showed up with things being set up by you guys, you guys did a great job because we had great accommodations. We had little, you know, we were four to a room at first, which was a little tight with the gear and everything, but that quickly improved. And and honestly, any anyone who's ever been in the army is laughing at me right now for complaining about that. We had, you know, a hard sided shelter with air conditioning and blackout.
Bryan:Like the windows were boarded over so it was blackout and you could sleep at any time during the day. Like you guys did a great job.
Pat:Thanks. It was a lot of work and a lot of negotiation with people to make it happen, which is great because I ran into so many people that I knew that I didn't even know were deployed. I'd be walking down to some random office like transport. Hey, we used to work together and blah, blah, blah. And name whatever base or unit.
Pat:And it'd be like, hey, what do you need? I really need a pickup truck for my maintenance guys. Oh, sure. Just by the sheer weight of relationships that you had built over the years, it was really, it helped a lot to make it happen and it wasn't always perfect. And there was situations where it was a lot of times I had to explain to the crews coming in and like, trust me, sign here.
Pat:I know it sounds bad, but it's gonna be it. The fix is in. Just trust me.
Bryan:I remember that.
Pat:Take a leap of faith. Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised because I had that you'd remember that. I had to tell people, trust me, it'll be fixed. Just sign a paper.
Bryan:Yeah. What was the biggest thing you learned during this tour in Kuwait and flying over Iraq?
Pat:Training works. Trust everything that you've been, trained to do because even when you're in a situation that is outside of what you're trained, your training will guide you to the answer. As the operations guy, it always worked for me. I was always able to figure out what to do simply because of the training that I had. So training works.
Pat:It does what it's supposed to do. And as long as you're willing to put in the work and the effort. And I learned that everybody wants to do the right thing. It's just sometimes they don't know how. So if you Team, teamwork makes the dream work, they say.
Pat:And, it was never more obvious, than when I went to Kuwait.
Bryan:Yeah, for sure. So, Trevor, let's take some time to talk about your operational experiences in the RCAF. Can you describe some highlights from your early years flying operationally on the Aurora?
Trevor:Yeah. Okay. So the Aurora, four zero seven Squadron, great squadron. I did five years there until about, 04/00/2008. Reached maritime patrol crew commander, unit ICP, PSTO roles as pilot standards training officer.
Trevor:We had, of course, all the West Coast deployments, which I know some of the guys at Greenwood at times were jealous of.
Bryan:For
Trevor:sure. I've been to Hawaii more times than I can count, five, six times. It kinda became a joke. It was like, oh, we're going to Hawaii again. San Diego, obviously, quite a lot, down there on exercise.
Trevor:Also got a chance to go over to Kinloss, Scotland, which was a great time. Stayed at the Alton Beran Hotel. I had a pub in the basement. Some really good memories there. Shamia for Druff Net Patrols, and then, we started obviously into the overland role.
Trevor:So we a lot of stuff in Wainwright, a lot of stuff in Palm Springs, a lot of northern deployments as well. Actually, one of the highlights I can remember, was getting a chance to return to Whitehorse with the Aurora for the, Sourdough Air Show. Many of the military members listening will know the Sourdough Air Show.
Bryan:That must have felt like a pretty cool full circle moment.
Trevor:Yeah. That was that was really that was really cool. And, you know, I I had a chance to bring the the air cadets out, give them a tour of the, aircraft. And, that was really cool. Full circle, you know, circle of life type of thing.
Trevor:Of course, it's it brings back memories to the Sunday party at Jack Kings Coats place. He just passed away, actually recently. That was a that was such a popular air show that I remember during the summertime, my dad and I had to go over to Jack's place and help reinforce his back deck because so many people would come outside and stand on it that, it started to collapse. So I went over it and reinforced it, during the summer. Cold air show, static air show.
Trevor:I mean, I remember my, APU on the Aurora froze. We had to get a, Perman Nelson, cold hot air on it to start it up. But, yeah, good memories of flying the Aurora and, you know, really the first, the first big aircraft that I flew that I realized you can reach out and touch anywhere in the world. Yeah. Global deployable capability, which, which kinda, you know, it it's something I've remembered for my whole career.
Bryan:Yeah. It's it really is an awesome, super capable, super flexible aircraft and it's on its way out. The p eight will be replacing it in the next five to ten years. We've already got crews training on them, but, it'll be sad to see the P3s kind of fade into the mist.
Trevor:Yeah. Beautiful aircraft. Loved it.
Bryan:So something that was new at the time, which now the Aurora does extensively, is overland intelligence surveillance reconnaissance or ISR work, which we talked a little bit about with Pat. You were around when the MX 20 camera first came on board. How did this tool take the Aurora from a sub hunter into overland tactics?
Trevor:Yeah. Suddenly, weren't over water anymore. We weren't due regard. We were, we were overland in different airspace, you know, usually high level to ensure covert status. And we were learning how to use that MX 20.
Trevor:You know, I can remember the growing pains with the ASOPs, and you remember this path, you know, how you had to how you had to input the elevation, of the target you were looking at because, obviously, the earth is not one level, and depending on the elevation, you could be looking in the wrong spot. All those growing pains happened, as we've learned. And Wainwright became a location we'd frequent quite a lot for exercises because it was close enough that we could do it in a hop off in a mocks. We'd also deploy there and do exercises. Of course, we did a lot in The U S.
Trevor:Yeah. I deployed to Cold Lake, staying in the motel there beside the Cold Lake, the infamous bar. I don't know what it's named now. Flying over land missions brings back some good memories.
Bryan:A really cool opportunity came your way, and you ended up flying the NATO AWACS e three a Boeing seven zero seven. Can you tell us how that came about and what your experiences were like on that aircraft?
Trevor:Yeah. So that's a that's a good story, actually. Right place, right time in the military is a lot of the reasons you go places. Right? Pat's got examples.
Trevor:I've got so many examples through my career, just right place, right time. So, it's 02/2008. I'm doing well at four zero seven squadron, loving Comox, loving the job. Crew commander in the pilot pool system, that was back when we went to the pool system. We went away from the crews for a while, because we're we're short.
Trevor:We're losing guys to airlines. So there was a pilot pool, a flight engineer pool, an Aesop pool. You just pick from the pool to to fly. So I'm in the pilot pool, the pilot pit as we called it on a Friday. It's an office day and, really, I'm just sitting there waiting for the mess to open in Comox.
Trevor:And I'm waiting to go over to the snake pit. And, Comox is one of those places on a Friday afternoon if the weather is nice, there's not a lot of people around squatter. Yeah. It's just nothing to do. So if you can believe it, you know, this is before I'm dating myself here.
Trevor:This before really cell phones were big where you could sit there and surf the nets and there's no magazines laying around, no flight safety magazines to read. So I literally had my AOIs open in my lap because I was looking at something that I had thought about.
Bryan:And for the listeners, AOIs are aircraft operating instructions that basically describes all the systems and how to operate the aircraft.
Trevor:And the seal walked in. Talk about timing, right? Mike Hogan. And, I was the only guy in there and and he's like, Joobie, what are you doing in here on a Friday afternoon? You know?
Trevor:And I'm like, I'm doing a little studying, sir. And so that started the conversation and he's like, well, I got a problem. I need a pilot to go to Germany on the AWACS. It's four zero seven squadron's turn, and I don't want someone that will embarrass the family. So he said, are you interested?
Trevor:And, you know, at the time I was approaching posting season, one of my instructors in Boucher had moved to snowbirds and during spring training, as you know, snowbirds do spring training in Comox. And the year passed, he had come out and give me a chance to go with a practice show with him. Man, I love I love formation flying for Moose Jaw. Love the snowbirds and possibility to be a Canadian symbol would have been an amazing experience. So I had a kind of expressed interest in snowbirds or considered throwing my hat in the ring for a tryout.
Trevor:It's a couple of ex snowbirds on 04/2007. They'd start giving me some advice. And then both PSDOs, the status of training officers in Greenwood, put their releases in, and they went to WestJet. And so, you know, you start to hear these posting whispers about Greenwood, and it was looking more and more likely for him. And now I get this Friday conversation with the CEO.
Trevor:Hey. Do you wanna go out can? Do you wanna go to GK? So suffice to say, had a quick conversation that weekend with my, my wife, and, we were posted over we went to Germany. What what an amazing opportunity.
Bryan:You mentioned GK, that's Geile Kirschen in Germany. Right?
Trevor:Everyone's calls it GK because it's such a mouthful, but Geilekirchen, Germany where the NATO, bases where they have the, NATO AWACS squadron space. Just what that was one of the highlights of my career, you know, it's going over there, the posting, because everyone that goes over there, they get posted in a certain slots. So I knew that I was going over, for two years in the operational squadron, and then I'd be two years in the training squad. And that was also really exciting to eventually get a chance to be an instructor there. And the first two years, was, it was, you know, as you hear these places around the world, a flying club, it was training were deployed all around Europe.
Trevor:I reached aircraft captain status, instructor, and eventually evaluator status on the jet. Had forward operating bases. So so NATO has forward operating bases in, Trapani, Italy, in Orland, Norway, in Konya, Turkey, Pravesa, Greece. And all over the place, we flew. I mean, Berlin air show, the Slovakia air show, which I never thought I'd go to Slovakia for an air show, but we were one of the most popular chests to arrive.
Trevor:And then, of course, after two years, we started to get into the wartime environment. So Libya kicked off, and I deployed to Libya three times. We were, job in in Libya was to enforce the no fly zone, and we were one of the first high value assets to move overland, which was always something that was made you pay attention because you were assuming that all the, surface to air threats were eliminated. One really cool actually story, I'll keep it somewhat unclass, was that, nearing the end of the conflict, it was our weapons controllers in the back that were controlling the f sixteens that bombed Gaddafi's compound as he was trying to escape the city, which eventually led to this, number three.
Bryan:Crazy.
Trevor:So it was was cool to see that, come to an end and for us to be part of it.
Bryan:Yeah. That's wild. That's a that's a piece of history for sure.
Trevor:Yeah.
Bryan:So Canada is looking at acquiring airborne early warning aircraft, potentially the e seven a Wedgetail among a few options. Regardless of which aircraft is chosen, what will it take to stand up this capability, and why do you think it's important?
Trevor:Yeah. Okay. So we've seen the we talked about it a little bit earlier. We've seen the prime minister's latest pledge to hit the 5%, spending by 2035. So 3.5 on defense and point five on infrastructure.
Trevor:So what will it take to set it up? We have the subject matter knowledge in the RCF right now to stand this capability up. Some of the smartest people I know are Royal Canadian Air Force weapons controllers. Are they are next level. I think their trade actually has more outcan positions than any other trades combined.
Trevor:I joke about because when I talk with the, guys and gals that do that, they're they seem like they're always, outcan. Yeah. And the pilot knowledge will be there. This is a jet. You know, seven thirty seven is something that we will be familiar with.
Trevor:There's many of us that have served that are have Boeing experience. But, you know, as we move to the p eight, you'll see that, the experience will be there, especially with the air to air refueling knowledge that will only increase with the p eight, which is from my time with the AWACS is some of the most challenging but rewarding flying I've ever done is taking gas from another large aircraft in a in a tanker truck. And that guys and gals will just get better at that as we go. And and why? You know, why do we why do we think it's important?
Trevor:Well, an airborne early warning aircraft, it's only gonna augment what the RCAF leadership has already put in motion. And this is gonna be another piece of this integrated multilayer ISR sensor approach to to Canada's coastlines, Northeast and west. And I think it's a super exciting capability that's coming down the pipe and what a great time to be in the RCAF.
Bryan:Yeah. We've got a lot of new capabilities that are gonna be stood up. I think while it's gonna be challenging from a personnel perspective in terms of just personnel levels, the staffing levels, I think there's so many exciting opportunities coming up with these new aircraft that honestly, I think I'm a little jealous of anyone who's joining, you know, in the next like, now and in the next five years
Trevor:Yeah. Totally.
Bryan:With all the stuff that's coming online. It's gonna be it's gonna be crazy.
Trevor:Yeah. Agree.
Bryan:So you finished your time in the RCAF as a lieutenant colonel, and your billet as a CO was at seventeen Wing Operations Support Squadron or OSS. During this time, you were also able to augment four zero two squadron as a dash eight pilot, which was a huge opportunity. What was the biggest challenge you faced at that time, particularly with balancing your CO duties while maintaining a flying category?
Trevor:Okay. So the CO CO of OSS, it's a busy, job. Any of the OSS COs across any of the wings will understand when I say this. And this was this was kind of the first time that they were combining wing ops, you know, wing tests versus wing readiness, military police, you know, FOL, for the hornet commissioners. And and really, he just became an overall problem solver.
Trevor:So the the wing commander at the time was Andy Cook, and he is a pilot's pilot. And he was actually flying time to time with the Herc Squadron in Winnipeg. And he very much believed to keep him flying as a pilot in higher ranks was important. You know, it allowed you not only to get the much needed morale boost for yourself, you know, working, what is predominantly a ground job. It gives you that little bit of mental health to go flying, But it also gave a chance to see the wing at the operational level.
Trevor:And seeing the wing in its operating areas is different if you're in wing ops on the ground versus actually in the aircraft. Four zero four zero two, they have some amazing experience with that squadron, some really, really experienced pilots. And I was fortunate to get a chance to fly and learn from them and augment them. And, yeah, I was I was able to successfully balance the CO duties with the with the flying cat. You know, careful selection of flights that became, very good friends with the scheduler.
Trevor:And, you know, in the nine busy days, and you could pick them pick them out as you knew, your schedule. And, usually, you're pretty safe on a on a Tuesday or a Wednesday, but you knew that, usually Mondays and Fridays were your busy days as you assess duties. And then I had a very confident, chief, and I had a very, very confident DCO. And they were able to take some of the load when I'd be up flying.
Bryan:It's great to hear that you were able to keep that flying going as a CO. It's not something everybody gets to do, although it does seem to be becoming more common again from like the interviews I've done recently. But that's great that you were able to do that. And obviously, like you said, you gave credit to your chief and that's a huge piece of the puzzle, right, is the support from your NCMs and your senior NCOs and the military runs on them, right?
Trevor:Exactly. And there's very much a, I guess, angle to this that's, street credit, right? You you need to understand the operation from its most basic tactical level if you're gonna command at the tactical and operational levels. Yeah. So Yeah.
Trevor:I think it's important that you get your hand in it and you understand what your what your troops are are doing from grassroots level.
Bryan:For sure.
Trevor:And it it is fun. I mean, pilots pilots wanna fly. Right?
Bryan:Yeah, absolutely. This is a story for both of you guys. Apparently you shared the experience of having a near miss. Can you both tell us about that?
Trevor:Yeah, for sure. How about I just lay out the, groundwork and you can add in Absolutely. Behind it. Yeah. So I I definitely used up one of my, nine lives that day for sure.
Trevor:We're in Palm Springs. We're doing, overland training, with the Marines headed to Iraq. We're in the, the range acting as covert aircraft. It's dusk. So, it's on the way to darkness, but just not there.
Trevor:And we have a thunderstorm that's building behind us, masking us, pushing us closer and closer to the edge of the range, but we're still inside the range. Two US Hornets edge of the range, not on comms, not checking into range control, and came as close as I want to see another aircraft that I'm not in formation. Wow. Over to you, Pat.
Pat:Yeah. So we're just on the edge of the day where where we're gonna turn around. And, of course, the the the the confusion about what happened and where did these guys come from and discussions internally to the crew and externally with range control of these people are. And it ended up being a bit of a butting heads conflict in between the aircraft captain and the tactical coordinator in the back and sort of me in the middle because I had just gone to the cockpit to figure out what happened. And I've seen one of the pilots was like, looked like he'd seen a ghost.
Pat:Wasn't wasn't Trevor. It's seen a ghost. Taknav in the back is mad because now there's this difference of opinion. I'm just conflict is never good. So we did the right thing.
Pat:We went home. Well, I say home but we went back to Palm Springs to talk about what happened because it's the old saying, it's better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than being flying wishing you were on the ground. But it was my first real exposure to that level of disagreement between two layers of command.
Trevor:In the end, it's a, you know, it still uses it Aurora CRM example of how things can, the Swiss cheese can line up?
Bryan:This requires a little explanation for the listeners. CRM is crew resource management and is basically the interactions amongst the crew and how well they're working together. The Swiss cheese comment is basically if you imagine layers of Swiss cheese with holes in it, each layer represents a layer between you and risk and the risk getting through and becoming an incident. And we kind of say the Swiss cheese is lining up when all the holes start to feel like they're lining up and there's an increased level of risk of something bad happening.
Trevor:And we we definitely got lucky that night. And Pat and I still finally talk talk about the conversation with the taco at the back.
Bryan:How close would you say you guys were to the the f eighteens?
Trevor:I saw them as they approached, but I wasn't flying. My first officer was flying in a left hand bank, I saw them pushed pushed the control yoke forward. I had no time to say anything other than brace. And we did miss them, but I don't know. I think back to that day and I, I think it it would have been different if I hadn't have taken some action for sure.
Bryan:Close close enough that you said brace. That's crazy.
Trevor:Yeah. We were so close that we could, you know, you could literally see the, the pilots in their cockpits.
Bryan:That's crazy. That's wild. So let's talk about how you guys started working with Powell. So for both of you, what road led to work with Powell and particularly to take on the mission of counter narcotics?
Pat:Okay, so for me, like I was familiar with Powell and that the company existed because they had an operation in Comox working a contract for the Canadian Department of Fisheries and Oceans. So I had heard of them and I knew people that worked there, but I wasn't ready for leaving the military or anything like that and I certainly wasn't eligible for pension. So they're sort of a pension prisoner kind of thing. But I was working the project office in Ottawa for the fixed wing search and rescue program that led to the Kingfisher and sort of working a desk kitchen to go back flying. But as a master warrant officer in the air force, it wasn't really gonna be a reality.
Pat:And then one day I got a message from a former colleague and friend of mine who had just taken a job in Curacao as a sensor operator. And the message was short. It just said, you need to send your resume to my boss right now. So, okay. Leap with both feet before looking and I did that.
Pat:And in the span of a weekend that led to informal talks, to a formal interview, to a job offer inside of forty eight hours. That's how I ended up making the switch from a ground job in the air force to a flying job with Powell down here in The Caribbean.
Bryan:Wow, that moved fast,
Pat:Very, very fast. All of a sudden it's like, yep, okay, we're making you an offer, but here's the deal, we need an answer by Monday morning first thing. Wow. The need was immediate and me and my wife didn't have a whole lot of time to think about it, but we had to sit through the weekend and anxious it out. Do we want to move to a whole other country and do it inside the next month?
Pat:It was a whirlwind, it had to be decided fast but that's exactly what we did. The last five years are history now, did it.
Bryan:Awesome. How about you Trevor?
Trevor:Yeah. So my first exposure to Powell was in Colomox where they have their AMSD operation.
Bryan:What's AMSD?
Trevor:About maritime surveillance division. So at the time, they were flying King Airs out of Comox, actually, of our hangar where they shared a portion of the hangar. So I I knew the, operation. And my wife, who at the time was my girlfriend, was flying as a, aerial surveillance officer for, Department of Fisheries and Oceans.
Bryan:Okay.
Pat:So I knew Powell.
Trevor:And then, flash forward to you know, I'm in Winnipeg as the CEO there. And and at that rank, I realized I was getting further and further away from my cockpit. And and when I was flying in Winnipeg, I in my command tour and handling all these problems that I encountered during my two years there, I realized that the thing I'm looked forward to the most was my time flying with four zero two and flying the dash eight. So when I heard there was a position down here where I'd been before actually with the Aurora many, many years ago. Jeez.
Trevor:Do I wish I bought real estate? I, I took a chance. I threw my, name in the hat, and they were actually quite far down the road in the application process. And similar to Pat, actually, I had about a weekend to decide if if we wanted to do this. And, the the idea of returning to operational flying, living in The Caribbean, was really, you know, in the end, an adventure that my family and I couldn't turn down.
Trevor:So we said yes.
Bryan:Right on. What is PAL's mission overall in The Caribbean and why are you based in Curacao?
Trevor:So overall mission in The Caribbean is to provide power to the Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Our primary role is actually search and rescue. We also support, disaster relief, police and fisheries, customs, counter narcotics, anything that the, our client would like the aircraft to do. We're based in Curacao because it is central really to the Caribbean region, and it also has the, navy, Dutch navy headquarters here, which makes it just an easy fusion of, all the information. Rescue coordination center is also here.
Trevor:Anything you wanna add to that, Pat?
Pat:We're based here when they when they created the Dutch Caribbean Coast Guard. The the facility already existed from the from the Dutch navy. So that that's why it's based here, the facilities, the hangars, everything was already here. So that that probably drove the the choice of, of base location.
Bryan:Okay. Right on. Pat, you had conducted several deployments to do similar work in the Aurora with the RCAF. How did this help prepare you for this line of work?
Trevor:Well,
Pat:doing op care in the Air Force, I had been here in Curacao before for one deployment. I had done a deployment in Martinique, El Salvador, Key West, Florida. So I was already familiar with the counter drug aspect and the organization of JAD of South. So I was familiar with that. So I knew sort of what that part of the mission was about.
Pat:I had seen go fasts before. I was familiar with the operational concept. So that was helpful when I arrived here and started flying and get through the training. So that was not foreign to me. But being a military guy, I was less familiar with the law enforcement aspects of what we do here.
Pat:Being an Aurora guide, had bit of an introduction to to to SAR, but it's not something that I had done in this region, before. So these things were all new, but the counter drug mission, was not a not a new thing for me.
Bryan:Okay. You mentioned go fast. Can you just quickly explain what that is?
Pat:It's the colloquial term for the vessels that are used to transport drugs. They tend to move at high speed so they've been called go fasts.
Bryan:Right on. Did either of you carry out any special flight training for counter narcotics with PAL or have to learn any special tactics and procedures?
Pat:For me, it wasn't necessarily like a special training. It's just when I got here, the client has a training program for their mission. So of course counter narcotics is included in that training program. So there was nothing really, from the PAL side, it was more the client and their mission and their requirements that they provided the training.
Bryan:Okay, makes sense. How about for you Trevor?
Trevor:Yeah. The the training, specifically for the front end, we have a fairly robust training program for our guys where we move from the right seat to the left seat. Because it's not, you might find a dash eight pilot who has flown airlines and comes down, but it's nowhere close to the same thing.
Bryan:Yeah.
Trevor:So really what you're looking for is someone who has the maritime patrol background that can fly to Ashiades. And, of course, you can imagine that the low level flying piece is something that requires some some training, a robust amount of training for someone who's never been close to the water. I find that it's fairly, easy for military or ex military guys to pick that up. But, a lot of the civilian guys who come here straight off the street, that we do very rarely hire, usually, we hire internally to the company because the company actually has a huge amount of experience in low level flying and maritime patrol operations.
Bryan:For sure.
Trevor:Most of those guys and gals that we, we bring down already have that piece in their toolbox. But, you know, one of the big things is the low level flying.
Bryan:Yeah. I can imagine for an airline pilot, that would be really, really uncomfortable if they had never done that before. Now, like, maybe they did low level a little bit of low level flying, say, when they were flying in a Cessna or something like but to bring what they would think of as an airliner down low over the ocean would be pretty weird.
Trevor:Yeah. We're authorized day VMC down to a 100 feet. So that, you know, if you remember your time in the Aurora, that gives you the speed rush. Guys who've never been down there before, it takes a little while for them to get used to it.
Bryan:Yeah. For sure. Do you rotate in and out of The Caribbean or do you live there full time for this job?
Trevor:We live here full time. Some of our maintenance personnel are rotational, but, any of the, the pilots, taco, sensor operators living, you know, as expats would in The Caribbean. Company provides an allowance for housing, but we do live on the economy
Bryan:Okay.
Trevor:As you've heard. I guess it's a classic military term, but it just means you, you rent the house within a certain distance of the, of the airfield. And, you know, your kids go to school here. Your your spouses have the ability to work if they if they want. We're residents of Curacao, which is also really cool because you're experiencing this the culture of this island while you're doing operation.
Bryan:Yeah. That's awesome. Let's
Trevor:get
Bryan:an overall picture of operations. Trevor, what islands do you patrol and what is your operations area?
Trevor:Okay. So the the operations area is the Caribbean Sea, really, and everything in between. Normal islands, though, that we patrol, and you'll hear this, the ABC, which is Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao.
Bryan:Okay.
Trevor:And then the S S S, which is Seva Station, Saint Martin. And those are effectively the Dutch islands or at least the islands that, have patrols executed by the Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Now we can also be tasked for operations search and rescue in the whole Caribbean Sea all the way out to Jamaica to to Saint Croix and Puerto Rico, and then as far to the east into the half moon chain of Barbados
Bryan:Okay.
Trevor:And anywhere in between. And that also goes for, you know, any narcotics operations. It's, it's quite a vast area that we, can control.
Bryan:Yeah. Was gonna say that's, that's quite a wide area. That's, that's a lot of ocean.
Trevor:Exactly.
Bryan:Do you deploy to any other locations?
Trevor:Yeah. We do. So I've personally deployed to Aruba, Bonaire, Saint Martin, Stacia, Martinique, French Island at Martinique. Really good French, fresh French loaf bread.
Pat:Yeah. And I I've recently done a deployment to Aruba and last year did a deployment to Martinique for a certain length of time. So we do get tend to get around the region.
Trevor:Yeah, for sure.
Bryan:That's awesome. That's nice to get a little variety in.
Trevor:Yeah, it's good for guys too. Living deployed ops is different than, than being at home. So it gives guys great experience, especially because we have some cycling of, TACoS, our client in and out of here. So it gives them an opportunity to see, deployed operations.
Bryan:Okay, guys. That's gonna wrap up part two of our chat for today. It was super interesting to hear about your careers in the RCAF as well as the beginnings of what you guys do down in The Caribbean with Pal. And I'm really looking forward to hearing about the work you're doing down in Curacao. Thank you again for being here today.
Pat:It was my pleasure, Brian.
Trevor:Yeah. Thanks, Brian. I've actually, wanted to be, chat with you on this show for a while so it's it's a pleasure to have this conversation.
Bryan:Right on. Alright. That wraps up part two of our chat with Trevor and Pat where we discussed their operational careers in the RCAF as well as the beginnings of what led them down to The Caribbean and working with PAL. For our next episode, tune in as we dive deep into their work with PAL in the Dutch Caribbean coast guard. Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard in this show?
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Bryan:That's all for now. Thanks for listening. Keep the blue side up. See you. Engineer, shut down all four.
Bryan:Shutting down all four engines.