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The great resignation has been a hot topic. Millions of people are quitting their jobs or plan to do so soon. Why is this happening? On this episode, Deloitte chief well-being officer Jen Fisher talks with Lauren McGoodwin, founder and CEO of Career Contessa, author of the book, Power Moves: How Women Can Pivot, Reboot, and Build a Career of Purpose, and cohost of the of Career Contessa podcast.
The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Jen Fisher (00:00):
Hi, I work well listeners. I'm really excited to share that my book work better together is officially out conversations with work well, guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this book. It's all about how to create a more human centered workplace. And as we returned to the office, for many of us, this book can help you move forward into post pandemic life with strategies and tools to strengthen your relationships and focus on your wellbeing. It's available now from your favorite book retailer, we've been hearing a lot lately about the great resignation millions of people are quitting, their jobs or plan to do so in the near future, why is this happening? Well, living through a pandemic can really change your perspective on work and life. For many, the pandemic may have revealed their true priorities, and now they're pursuing jobs that better align with their values and their purpose, but it shouldn't take a pandemic to help you build a meaningful career. There are things we can all do to discover our purpose, define our values and derive meaning from the work that we do. This is the work well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, chief wellbeing officer for Deloitte. And I'm so pleased to be here with you today to talk about all things wellbeing. I'm here with Lauren MMA Goodwin. She's the founder and CEO of career Contessa. A career resource that helps working women be more fulfilled, healthy, and successful at work. Lauren is also the author of power moves, how women can pivot reboot and build a career of purpose. And she's also the co-host of the career Contessa podcast.
Jen Fisher (01:47):
Help us get to know Lauren, tell us your story, tell us how you started career Contessa and why kind of all, how all that came.
Lauren McGoodwin (01:56):
Yeah, so I'll, I'll try to make it brief, but I I started career Contessa as really a side hustle. I was actually part of, I was writing my master's thesis on millennial women and career resources. This was back in late 2012 and I was I had just gone through a very arduous job search. So a little background, I graduated in 2009 in the middle of a recession not the best time to graduate and try to find a job. I eventually did find a job though. I was working as an administrative assistant for a university and really just like, couldn't believe that I had kind of quote unquote, done everything right in life, checked all the boxes. And here I was, you know, I remember I was feeding paper through a printer one day and I was like, I can't believe this is what it's come to and why did I go to college?
Lauren McGoodwin (02:43):
And, you know, just kind of having that quarter life crisis. And I, so I basically figured out that I wanted to be a recruiter and the way I determined that was well really through a lot of different conversations, but I ended up reaching out to over 70 people for informational interviews. And then I use those informational interviews to really transition from an administrative assistant to a recruiter, working in a tech company. Absolutely loved it. And so I had gone through this whole process and I was kind of thinking why, as someone who went through college, you know, went to the career center every day, all those kinds of things, how come it was so hard to find a job and like to be fulfilled. And, and why was I sort of in this place where I was, you know, just left, not knowing very much.
Lauren McGoodwin (03:30):
And then also becoming a recruiter. What happened is now I was on the other side of the hiring table and I was able to see like, wow, this is actually how people get hired. And it has nothing to do with what we're taught. So my, the hypothesis with my thesis at least was that one that women were about to enter the workforce in, in numbers that we had never seen before, which we didn't plan for a pandemic, but the, by 2020, we were going to be over half of the workforce. And yet there was no single career resource or a tool that spoke directly to us and about how work was different for us, it was like, everyone was just saying, no works the same, no matter who you are. And that wasn't the case. So career Contessa was the prototype from that thesis ended up keeping it around because I thought, well, maybe I'll use it to leverage a different career move if I want to move on from a recruiter one day.
Lauren McGoodwin (04:20):
And here I am, you know, almost eight years later and I can test those con from a thesis project as side hustle to now my full-time hustle. And it, you know, for people who don't know what career Contessa is, it's the largest online career resource. We are built for women, but we are made for everyone. And we have everything from articles to podcast, episodes, videos. And then if you want to move up kind of quote, unquote, the food chain to pay for things we've got online courses, we've got career coaching services. We even have an anonymous salary database. So that's what I wanted, you know, and I basically, I couldn't find it. So I created it.
Jen Fisher (04:59):
I love that. I love the innovation of that. You wanted something that you couldn't find, so you created it. So, so let's talk about dream jobs and I've heard you speak about this. You and I have talked about this, does it dream job exists for everyone? And do you think we should all be pursuing our dream job?
Lauren McGoodwin (05:18):
I absolutely do not think a dream job exists. And I actually think the myth of the dream job is what keeps people actually consistently unfulfilled chasing something more and more and more and more and more. I actually interviewed this woman once who she had written a book called colinear job with no plan B or I think it's the title, something about that. And she was saying that you know, our identities are so wrapped up in our careers and part of that is like our culture. So it's part of our Western culture to basically the second question we ask is, you know, what's your name is the first question. Second question is, what do you do? And so our identities are closely tied to what we do. So not only do we feel like we're a failure, if we're not doing something amazing, but then this belief that there's a dream job out there, that's going to fulfill everything. You really have this like kind of lethal combo that makes people just walk around in a daze on fulfilled and thinking it's their fault. You know? So I'm, I'm absolutely not a fan of the dream job, you know, language for a lot of reasons. But I mean the most simple is that it doesn't exist. And so you know, if you, if you're jive, you're beating yourself up because you don't have one, you know, that that's a problem.
Jen Fisher (06:35):
Yeah. I mean, it, it, it's interesting. And, and the reason why I wanted to dig into that with you is, you know, for me, my title, my role is chief wellbeing officer. And I think for a lot of people, they think, wow, you know, that's a dream job. And, and, and perhaps in, in many ways it is, but you, every, every job, you know, comes, comes with it, you know, there, there's a reason that it's called work, I guess, is, is the best way to say it. You know, th th th every component of every job is not going to align with your dream. And so, while I get to do many things that I'm passionate about, there are, you know, there are things that I, that I have to do in my work and in my job that, you know, aren't really aligned with my dream or my passions.
Jen Fisher (07:20):
Right. And so I think that that's a really important thing to think about too, that, you know, this whole notion of, you know, we're going to spend a hundred percent of our time doing something that's completely aligned with our dreams. I agree with you that it is, it is a myth. So so let's talk about this whole notion of, of fulfilling work and, and what makes work fulfilling, because, you know, if it's not our dream job, we, we, we just generally want to do work that we know is fulfilling. But we may not know what our real passion is, or the type of work that fulfills us, you know, how do we discover that for ourselves kind of our, our passions, not only in life, but like what, you know, what we're passionate about in terms of the work that we do.
Lauren McGoodwin (08:05):
Yeah. So it's interesting. I wrote a book that came out last year, it's called power moves, how women can pivot reboot and build a career purpose, and similar probably to you in your book. When I was seeing a bunch of research, the number one thing that makes people fulfilled, whether it's their personal life or their work life are their relationships. Now, the second question I get is, okay, I understand have a community have relationships network. But then how do I do work that I like, and what I've found from my research, but also eight years of career Contessa and talking to women is when it comes to finding work that fulfills you. There's two things. And a lot of people will tell you don't focus on your passions. They'll tell you to focus on your strengths. I mean, like tomato, tomato, right? Like at the end of the day, people don't know what that is changing the word doesn't help them discover it.
Lauren McGoodwin (08:54):
What I found is that most people really enjoy their work if they're, if they're good at it. So it's like finding work that you're good at in that also you will be compensated for. So and then kind of expanding on those skillsets. So that is one thing. And then what people will often or at least the trend I found when I was talking to people is like, find something that you're really good at because confidence is a huge piece to being fulfilled at work. And so building up that confidence in like your skillset and then finding these adjacent strengths. So for example, if you're really good at sales, and one of the things maybe that sales requires is being able to present and then like an adjacent strength of that might be more public speaking. And so then you would pursue more opportunities to do public speaking or trainings or workshops or something like that.
Lauren McGoodwin (09:44):
And so it's kind of less of this, like, here's this perfect formula and more of a you know, find where the overlap happens of like, you're good at your job, or you're good at this thing it's required for your job. You'll be compensated for it. And then you can develop these adjacent strengths or abilities to which will help you be at least more fulfilled at work. Like, I, I don't like using the word happy because I think of happiness. And I talked to a behavior psychologist and she said, happiness is a feeling that can come and go a hundred times a day. And if you can capture the happiness, then you're happy. But see, we live in this society that tells us like happy is a constant state that you can be in. And that
Jen Fisher (10:27):
You will always fail if that's, if that's exactly.
Lauren McGoodwin (10:34):
So, yeah, it's, to your point about dream jobs too, is like you're right. People only imagine, you know, the perfect commute, the perfect boss, the engaged work that they're doing. They never imagine the absentee boss, the commute that, you know, stresses them out every day. And so what you make up in your head and dream up of near head doesn't ever actually include any of the tough realities of work. And so we, we have a real disconnect between like, what we think is possible and what we see, thank you, Instagram and Pinterest and all that other stuff. And like what's reality, and everybody is kind of distorted at this point.
Jen Fisher (11:12):
Yeah. So I guess reflecting on that, I mean, you know, so much of, I guess what we're, what's going on now with, you know, the, the great resignation, I mean, do, do we need to leave our jobs to find a meaningful career? What, what can we do kind of in our current jobs to derive more meaning you know, from the work that we do, like, what's your take on kind of what's going on with the great resignation and somebody that is potentially thinking about leaving their job? Are there steps that they can take to, to create more meaning before perhaps, you know, making the decision to leave?
Lauren McGoodwin (11:50):
Yeah. I think a couple of things are happening with the great one. I think some people are just flat out tired, like they're just really tired and they really see no way out of this other than quitting and being fully disengaged from it. And then being able to come back and having a fresh start, I think some people and like financially they're in a place where they can do that. So I think you're
Jen Fisher (12:12):
Totally okay.
Lauren McGoodwin (12:14):
Yeah, totally. Okay. And, and I think they're, they're seeing this as like a really good time for them to do that because when they do go back to look for a job, it seems to them at least, or they're, they're hearing in their listening that the odds are pretty much in their favor to be able to get some interviews. And D like, I guess there there's less fear around finding another job. And when people are less fearful about finding a job than they feel more confident leaving the job that they have for something else, there's also this flip side of people who maybe they need to have a job. They can't be without one, but they app through the pandemic, they've realized like, Hey, one life is too short to be doing something you absolutely hate. Now, my company wants me to go back in person and I don't want to do that.
Lauren McGoodwin (12:58):
Like, they feel like they have options. And even though maybe they can't totally you know, drop out of the workforce altogether for a period of time, they can leave this job and look for something else. And so I think there's a lot of people out there who maybe went off and explored that option, and then they got offers, you know? And so they're, it's just interesting. Cause like the power dynamic changed. So suddenly from employers were, had the upper hand and people were being laid off. And so they were terrified to now they're not. And so you just, you just have two extremes. And I think for the people who are in the camp of, I really want to do something or work somewhere where it, it aligns more with who I am and I always refer to this as your career ideals.
Lauren McGoodwin (13:39):
So your career ideals are the things that you want and the things that you have to have people, or maybe those things changed over the last, you know, 18 months. And now the number one thing they want is flexibility. Or the number one thing they want is autonomy, autonomy. They don't want to be on a big project with 50,000 hands in the, you know, what's the same chefs or cooks in the kitchen kind of thing where it's like overwhelming because they're having to work virtually. So yeah, I, I think it's kind of a mix of both. And then when you just throw in the fact that people have options and they're not afraid then of course, people who are more risk adverse, which is a lot of us are now feeling like, Hey, I, I don't have to be as risk adverse right now. Now's the time to take the risk.
Jen Fisher (14:24):
And so that's, that's super helpful, right? I mean really good insight, but what, so if I, I guess if I don't want to leave my job or if I, you know, if I, you know, like my employer, I like my, you know, I work mates, my teammates, but I still am struggling with kind of, you know, finding meaning in my work, especially these days. Cause your point, I think everybody is just tired and fatigued across the board. I know I am, are there steps we can take to, to build more meaning or to kind of find some meaning in our, in our current career, if we're generally, you know, happy or, you know, I guess not happy. We don't want to use that word if we're generally generally fulfilled, what can we do to cultivate more meaning?
Lauren McGoodwin (15:08):
Well, I think the first thing you have to do is back up a little bit and understand okay, let's diagnose the problem. Is it that you truly are not interested in the day-to-day work? Like you just don't feel like you're being challenged anymore. You could do it in your sleep. Is it that you're burnt out? Like, so is it about the work or is it about like just where you are mentally, physically, emotionally? I recently interviewed a burnout scholar and she was talking about when people are burnt out. They actually found through a bunch of research that sometimes the answer is self care and sometimes the answer is self-compassion. And so, you know, if it's, if you lean more toward the burnout side, there's maybe not something we can do dramatically. And you and I talked about this other day where people, you know, employers, you know, give a day off here or a week off here, or they give more access to more benefits.
Lauren McGoodwin (15:55):
It's like, you need to diagnose and then determine if it's self care or self compassion. That's more for you. And then if you fall into the camp of like, I'm feeling okay, physically, mentally, emotionally, but I'm just not interested in this work anymore. It's just not doing it for me again. When you go to your boss and kind of want to say, Hey, I'd really love to switch to another project, or I'm not feeling this. Like, you can't just throw out this blur of like, I'm not into this anymore. Your boss is probably going to be like, yeah, I know, join the club. You know, like, so the point being is like, it's good to kind of take time to reflect, what is it? Is it the clients? Is it the pace? Is it you don't, you it's a lack of creativity. So trying to pinpoint maybe a couple of things that are making you feel not as engaged.
Lauren McGoodwin (16:42):
And then maybe you asked your boss like, Hey, can we brainstorm together? Based on what your goals are, the goals of the company and also where I'm feeling a little disengaged, like maybe there's something else for me to get involved in. An example of this is I had someone on my team who basically came to me and was like, I'm not digging this project. Like, it's just, it's, it's always one of those things where I find it really draining. And you know, what, after further investigating it, it was like, okay, well, let's find someone who can take on just that one part. You can manage that person, which would give you new, you know, management skills that you didn't have before, or at least start practicing with that. And when you, we can use your time to work on this other thing that is, you know, has been a priority, but maybe we haven't been able to you know, put it on your plate because you had too many other things. So I think sometimes you can get a lot further with a conversation than people think they're just there, they just sit there and they're kind of like oh, no one understands. It's like, but have you had the conversation? Have you gone to them and tried to problem solve with them? And it's really helpful to go, not only with some solutions, but also like something more specific than just, I'm not, I'm, I'm feeling really burnt out or I'm feeling disengaged from the work I'm doing.
Jen Fisher (17:59):
Right. Cause you're, you're not just kind of dropping the problem on the, on the desk, but you're coming up with some ideas that could be potential solutions or at least something to discuss along the way.
Lauren McGoodwin (18:10):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like, I'm a true believer in like, you can't outsource your problems, but you can outsource your solutions. Meaning like once you have a, you understand what the solution or where you want to go, like a lot of people can help you. A lot of, you know, resources can kind of jump in and be helpful for you. But just knowing that, you know, you're not engaged or that you're burnt out, it just leaves too many puzzle pieces and people are busy and like, unfortunately, like we need you to do some of the work with that too. Yeah.
Jen Fisher (18:42):
So let's pivot a little bit. Your book is called power move. So explain to us what a power move is. Like, what does that mean?
Lauren McGoodwin (18:51):
Yeah. So in the most basic terms, a power move is an action. A behavior, a decision that is made about your career, that space and being proactive versus reactive. So power moves can be the things you do daily. They can do the big things. I think a lot of people think of a power move is like, you just run into your boss's office and you yell, I quit and you walk out. Yeah, that can be a power move. Those are the big ones, but I'm a firm believer in the progress principle, which is something that two researchers at Harvard came up with, which is the idea of like essentially small moves, add up to big things over time. And so what I really notice as again, as a theme in the people who were fulfilled in their jobs and who were you know, designing careers that were kind of based around what they wanted and on their own terms is they were daily practitioners of power moves.
Lauren McGoodwin (19:43):
So they didn't just make drastic moves every once in a while, they, it was the daily things. And really that means that a lot of their actions were stemmed and being very proactive versus reactive, which is actually how a lot of people go through their careers is they're really reactive. They take things as they come at them, which is why they can get really overwhelmed, which is why they end up in a job or a company where, you know, maybe it wasn't what they wanted. And then 15 years later, they're like, I never wanted this job in the first place, for example. And so power moves, I like to use the metaphor is like, you know, they always like to say, it's not a diet, it's a lifestyle, it's the same thing with your career. You can do something that's quick and has maybe a before and after kind of like a fad diet. But if you want the lifestyle results, if you want that, then it's about making power moves as part of your daily routine and rituals that you have as a party with your career and your work.
Jen Fisher (20:37):
I wish I, I really needed you 15 years ago in my life. Really. I'm sure you hear that a lot, right?
Lauren McGoodwin (20:45):
Yes. So
Jen Fisher (20:47):
Let's talk about a topic that's near and dear to my heart near and dear to both of our hearts, I think. But how important is you managing your physical, mental, emotional health, your overall wellbeing to building a meaningful career?
Lauren McGoodwin (21:02):
Oh, I mean, absolutely. If you don't have your health, you don't have anything. Right. like you just can't I was talking about making, being able to make proactive career decisions. Like you can not do that. If your mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, all the things have to be healthy and you know, there's I can't remember her name, but there's a woman up there. She did a Ted talk about the seven types of rests that you need and it's, you know, it's not just physical rest. It's why sometimes you take a nap and you wake up and you're like, I'm still feel tired because you need to have your body. Like, it's not just about physical. It's about emotional creative spiritual you know, all, all these parts of your system have to be in a, I don't want to say a perfect place cause you know, we're about progress, not perfection, but you can't ignore them. You know? If you do, as you know, from your experiences, like it, it comes back and it finds you. So do you want to, yeah, exactly. Do you want to address it now or do you want to address it when it like slaps you in the face? You know,
Jen Fisher (22:08):
What would you, I mean, tell people. Cause I think, you know, I spent a lot of time, you know, telling people, well, if you don't put yourself first and really you're, sub-optimizing not just your career, but your relationships and pretty much everything else in your life that matters to you. Like how do we help people change that mindset of, you know, you have to put your work first in order to Excel in your career.
Lauren McGoodwin (22:31):
Well, for starters, I think it's really interesting. I would, I would challenge everyone to try this experiment, which is like say no to one thing at work this week and see if your career falls apart. A lot of people I think internally have decided that yes, not only is my career, the most important thing, but like there's no way I can say no to this thing or not be part of whatever it is at work. I've got to say yes to every project. Otherwise my boss is going to think I'm slacking off. I have to be part of every meeting. Otherwise I won't look like I'm committed. Whatever, you know, every client that I talk to, I have to, you know, really deeply engaged and follow up immediately. It's like there, I think what I find interesting about that is like try maybe I'm a huge fan of the book, essential ism, which is all about focus and getting really clear, like what are the essentials like less is more right.
Lauren McGoodwin (23:25):
And like one, if you haven't read that book, I would definitely start with that and then become really focused on what are maybe the top three or five things that you really, really need to focus on. And, and talk to your boss and put this experiment into practice where you say no to things, you set boundaries. I'm a fan of, for example, on my emails, in my email signature, it talks about how you know, I, all of us don't work probably traditional hours. Therefore I send emails when it's convenient for me. I expect you to send me emails when it's convenient for you. So like I've set this boundary with people when they email me, is that you're going to get a response when it works for me. I'm totally cooled. You also responding when it works for, for you. But like one of the things, for example, I hear all the time is people are like, I feel like just tied to work.
Lauren McGoodwin (24:15):
I've got to, you know, I get emails in the middle of the night. And so some of this stuff is about like, you've got to prioritize, have focus, and then there's going to be trade offs by having those focus points. But you're going to feel so much better because you're going to have a lot of clarity on like why these things are the most important and why you don't make time for these other things. And I mean, a lot of these just come down to these like career traps. So one of the career traps that I talk about in the book that everyone's heard about is like, we see busy-ness as a, not just a badge of honor, but busy-ness equals success. Like if you're super busy, then it means you're, you must be successful. So a lot of this is like rituals and routines and mindsets and narratives that we've created. And we have to break these cycles.
Jen Fisher (24:59):
I completely agree when I, if I when I wake up in the morning and after my morning routine and I check my emails, if I've gotten an email from a colleague that came in in the middle of the night, I write back to them and I don't necessarily respond to what they are requesting in their email, but I ask them why they are sending me emails in the middle of the night in it. And if there's something you know, that I can help them with so that they can get some sleep too. So I, you know, I, and I respect that there's different time zones. So I try to be sensitive to that, but certainly I'm a big fan of boundaries, but I don't think anybody should be emailing anybody in the middle of the night because I think you should be sleeping.
Lauren McGoodwin (25:40):
Yeah. What's so nice too. As like technology has like
Jen Fisher (25:45):
Tool delivery. Yeah,
Lauren McGoodwin (25:46):
Exactly. You can schedule to have it be send and that is a real game changer. So then if the person did send you that slack in the middle of the night, they really met to send it to you versus schedule it for later.
Jen Fisher (25:59):
Absolutely. So anyway, so, so what are, I mean, what other, I guess, tips or thoughts do you have you know, for managers, you know, someone that's leading a team, you know, how, how can they help people find meaning in their work? Or is it solely up to the individual?
Lauren McGoodwin (26:21):
No, I mean, I, I mean, look, I do think each individual needs to understand that a manager's job is the performance of the team as it relates to the company's, you know, goals. But a lot of people think of their manager as like they're their therapist, their career coach, their whatever else they need that day. And so one thing I would, I would just caution people is like, that is a lot to put on a manager when their job is more the performance and yes, managers can, I'm all for leading with empathy, leading with making it a safe space for people to share their emotions and, and bring their quote unquote human to work. But I, I encourage each person to kind of take on the role of becoming their own career coach, because when you go to your manager with, as we mentioned earlier, some information about like, here's what I really want my career.
Lauren McGoodwin (27:14):
Here's what I know is are the goals for this team or priorities for this team, you get a lot further in those conversations. So for the managers, I think it's about potentially empowering and kind of teaching people how they can become their own career coaches. There's a lot of amazing like continuing education type things that you can do workshops around how people can identify their strengths and then like the followups. So I think what I find most often with the managers is that they've got so many different priorities on their plate that it's hard for them to do this, even though they have really good intentions to do it. And so they also need to be able to be given the time and the space to set some of these things up for their team or to delegate that to somebody.
Lauren McGoodwin (28:03):
So helping their team to get really clear on like, what are their career ideals? What do they want most in their jobs to create that water virtual water cooler so people can build relationships. There was a woman I interviewed for the book and she does something where every Friday she her and her manager have come to this agreement where one to two. So not during her lunch hour. So on company time from one to two that's her career development hours, she listens to a podcast, a book, whatever it is. And then she'll, you know, she doesn't always have to do this with the manager, but the manager will ask her like, how, how was the hour this week? Did you listen to anything interesting, read anything interesting. And I think that's really nice also. It's just sometimes just giving people the space to for, for the managers because it's, it's a tough job for sure. So those are just some places to start. And I also think one of the, the things that managers can always do is lead by example lead by you know, creating that virtual water cooler in your meetings, right? Leading better meetings say, Hey, I don't think this needs to be a meeting. I think it's perfectly fine as an email, like looking for opportunities where you can be the, the leader who kind of sets the tone for how you want other people to move forward with things that work to.
Jen Fisher (29:25):
And I, and I think I love that I'm a huge, huge fan and believer in the power of role modeling. I think it's so critical, but I think also things as simple as sharing, you know, sharing what you do and being open and about that really empowers people to think about that in their own life and think about what that looks like for them. They might not do it exactly the way you do it as a manager, but it does, you know, give them kind of that permission if you will, to think about what that looks like for themselves.
Lauren McGoodwin (29:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
Jen Fisher (29:58):
So what advice would you have for somebody who, you know, we kind of talked about our, our internal narrative and some of the stories that we tell ourselves about work myths and things like that, but what about kind of those that struggle with their inner critic? Which is me who's telling them that, you know, they, they, aren't where they should be in their career, perhaps a little bit of imposter syndrome, you know, that they don't fit in here. What, what would you, what would you say to them? What are some things they can do for themselves or some actions that they can take to kind of try to quiet that inner critic?
Lauren McGoodwin (30:33):
Yeah. I mean, first, I just want to mention that everybody has an inner critic. It doesn't matter how successful you are. I did this piece once and it was about imposter syndrome and like Michelle Obama talks about how she says imposter syndrome. You know what I mean? So like, it's like it, is it a known fact that imposter syndrome is out there and silencing your inner critic is definitely loud for most people. So I think my tips would be first start by loving and accepting your inner critic. You know, there's this little saying that anything that you resist will persist and your inner critic is not all bad because often you're more motivated when you're harder on yourself. So I totally get why people kind of get in this. So I think just first start by the accepting acceptance of the inner critic.
Lauren McGoodwin (31:20):
And then you want to kind of recognize the pattern. What is the pattern that gets you into the inner critic coming out? So let's say that after, you know, a phone interview, you hang up on, you're like, oh my gosh, I was terrible. I centered over my words. Like, like I'm not smart. I'm not going to get this job. You know, that inner critic is really starting to rear her protective head for, for example. But instead of responding with all that negativity, maybe you say something like, Hey, there's my inner critic. Who's popping up to kind of basically say you know, let's talk about what, what you want to do differently moving forward. Right. So taking a kinder approach with yourself you know, don't, and, and, and be careful not to jump to this, like extreme of becoming a cheerleader because your psyche can't take that jump from one end to the other.
Lauren McGoodwin (32:12):
And so really the practices to see if you can just be a bit kinder to yourself. And then my favorite tip of the inner critic is I like to give her a name and you could pick any name you want, but mine's name is Carrie. And like, I talked to the inner critic as a third person and be like, she's a third person. And I basically kind of work through it. So like, what is the pattern that got me here? Is this related to some sort of thing I've always been sensitive to, why do I feel this way and kind of do the deeper work with that? The, at the end of the day, you know, inner critics and imposter syndrome, the ways to really kind of overcome them is not by ignoring it. It's by having more experiences that put you in uncomfortable situations and getting through to the other side with them. So building up that confidence and the self-esteem that, you know, that you've got this, even if it's, you know, maybe it doesn't go according to how you would like, but you know, you're going to be able to work through it
Jen Fisher (33:09):
To, I totally need to give my inner critic a name now, but I got to get mad, but I love that. So you know, we talked about the myth of, of, of a dream job, not really existing, what other myths are there. And, and we, we, I guess we've talked about a few of them, but are there other myths that, that you like to dispel about, you know, building a meaningful career, and I know you and I had previously talked about kind of this external definition of success. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Lauren McGoodwin (33:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I like to call these career traps. They're, they're the myths, they're the things that basically keep you stuck and certainly being attaching yourself worth to external things is, is definitely at the top of the list. Comparing and despairing, which is a term that was coined by Dr. Alyssa west string. It, you know, we know from research and we probably can tell just after scrolling Instagram, for example, when you start comparing yourself constantly to other people you start to have this kind of despair. And so compare and despair is a real problem because we really lose any appreciation and realistic picture of the progress that we've made in our career. And that lack of perspective can also prevent us from making decisions that are in our best interest, both personally and professionally. So, you know, when you're comparing yourself to someone else on Instagram it's a bit extreme.
Lauren McGoodwin (34:39):
The other one that we talked about was the busy-ness as a badge of honor, or truly what we do is we see that if you're nonstop busy, then you must be wow. So successful because look how busy you are. The next one is, is being attached to this big picture thinking, which is just really closely aligned to people who have a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And what we've found in the research. I didn't do the research, but what they found in the research with this fixed mindset too, is that when people are fixated on that external thing, the corner office, the job title even if they may be in their gut and their intuition, no halfway, they're like, Hey, this isn't actually, what's going to make me happy. This isn't the thing that I want to strive for.
Lauren McGoodwin (35:23):
They psychologically, it's more painful to kind of abandon that than it is to, because of this fixed mindset than it is to kind of change midcourse. And so when you are so attached to this big picture thinking, you know, like I got to have the next five to 10 years of my life planned out, I got to reach the corner office. I got to have the job title, whatever it is that is the danger that you put yourself in, which is you're not anticipating how your life is going to ebb and flow. Your interests are going to change what you need in your life is going to change. And, and really the biggest benefit of a growth mindset is it leaves you open to so many cool new opportunities and twists and turns that the whole point is that you don't know that they're coming.
Lauren McGoodwin (36:04):
And so that's definitely a trap. And then the trap of my, my final trap that I talk a lot about is the dream job. And instead, what I wish people would focus on is what I call the good enough job. Or it's a phrase that's kind of been out there and the internet is the good enough job, which is like not every single job or part of your life needs to be filled up by your job. Like, it's okay to have a job that pays you. And you're, you're pretty good at it, but, you know, that's, it, you're not accepting or you're not, you know, expecting again, this job to be every external piece to, to fill your self-esteem and your confidence levels. And I mean, it's okay to have a hobby it's okay to take time off from work and not feel like, oh, I'm so committed or so involved with my work that even while I'm on vacation, I'm, I'd rather be sending back some emails then to be enjoying, you know my tie with my family or whatever.
Lauren McGoodwin (36:58):
So I, you know, I, I think there's a lot of language in here that can start to change. We can start to ask people instead of what do they do as the second question, we can start asking people like, have you done anything interesting recently, have you gone to any good restaurants recently? Like there's a whole slew of ideas to ask people and to make the focus less on always, what do people do to kind of decide that, you know, their status is good enough for you or or not, you know, so
Jen Fisher (37:24):
That's how we build relationships, right. Is getting to know what's actually important to people, not what they do for a living, who are they and what do they like? And,
Lauren McGoodwin (37:34):
And most people destroy. The reason why that's a struggle is that most people don't really have a whole lot outside of work. And so that's why kind of, you know, shifting it for yourself first is an important piece of this
Jen Fisher (37:47):
That's really important point. So final question for you, Lauren, this has been awesome. I know you're a big promoter of self care. So can you share some of your personal self-care rituals? What do you do? What are your tips?
Lauren McGoodwin (37:59):
Yeah, so my number one is that I love to make time to go for a walk each day. I'm a big fan of walking as a form of exercise, mostly because I can do it whenever. And however, and I live in Southern California, so I can pretty much do it year round. And it's like the one thing through, you know, COVID and everything else I've kind of stuck to is making time to go for a walk, listen to a podcast or a book on tape. Usually I listen to something that actually has nothing to do with work also. My other thing for self care, if you have the ability to have a separate office space, is I really like to have my work stuff in one room. And then when I leave that room, I shut the door at the end of the day, which is kind of this ritualistic thing I do to kind of signal to myself like we're done with work.
Lauren McGoodwin (38:49):
So that's something I would definitely recommend. I also don't work five days a week. I work four days a week and that has been obviously that's an immense privilege and it's something I'm able to do because of the work schedule I have, but I have a five month old daughter. And that allows me to have an a day a day where it's a hundred percent just me and her. You know, where I, and I, I let people know that and I don't schedule things. And that has been, you know, I, I totally understand that's a huge piece of PR or I'm coming from a place of privilege with that. I also have designed my life to be able to have that. I knew that's something I wanted when I had a child.
Jen Fisher (39:28):
Got it. That's awesome. So are you a big fan of the movement towards a four-day workweek? What are your thoughts on that?
Lauren McGoodwin (39:33):
Yeah, I told I absolutely am and I'm not into the 10 hour, you know, 10 hour days for four days a week. I, I, I truly I think a lot of people in the research shows that a lot of people, even in an eight hour Workday are only doing like two or three hours of work. I mean, it's something it's so small, it's actually kind of sad. And so I'm a huge fan of like again, essential isms. So getting really focused on what are the things that actually move the needle, prioritizing them. And I, I don't know if this is just cause I'm a mom and so like every, you know, there's no time for anything ever, but like, I am incredibly efficient when I'm in my office doing work versus yeah, I'm very focused and I, and I, so I, I am a huge fan of the four day work week. And you know, I know some people maybe are doing it without their bosses, knowing I would love there to be more transparency around this type of schedule.
Jen Fisher (40:28):
Yeah. Like I agree with that transparency for sure. Well, Lauren, thank you so much for this conversation. It was really rich with insight and wisdom. I know people are going to get a lot out of it. I got a lot out of it, especially giving my inner critic a name. So I'm going to go off and think about that. And I will report back to you.
Lauren McGoodwin (40:45):
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me this just fun.
Jen Fisher (40:57):
I'm so grateful. Lauren could be with us today to talk about building a meaningful career. Thank you to our producers, rivet 360 and our listeners. You can find the word well podcast series on deloitte.com or you can visit various podcatchers using the keyword work. Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the work well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. My profile is under the name, Jen or on Twitter at gen fish, 23. We're always open to your recommendations and feedback. And of course, if you like what you hear, please share posts and like this podcast. Thank you and be well, your favorite. I can do the whole thing again, if that would be better. Just so you have it. I do it. It's it's the same one. That's right at the top. Amy Wright and gray. Okay. All right. Okay, cool. Hi work. Well, listeners, I'm really excited to share that my book worked better together is officially out conversations with work well, guests and feedback from listeners like you inspired this book. It's all about how to create a more human centered workplace. As we returned to the office, this book can help you move forward with strategies and tools to strengthen your relationships and focus on your wellbeing. It's available now from your favorite book retailer.