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"The Kibbitz," is a podcast hosted by Melissa and Andrea, two middle-aged Jewish moms/wives/women from the Midwest, who see a lack of representation of their demographic in the media -- and they have A LOT to say. Writing buddies who spent more time talking than writing is where the podcast was born. Their voices, their viewpoints -- and those of their peers -- are really worth sharing, and the best way to do it is through The Kibbitz.
speaker-2 (00:26)
Hey, I'm Andrea.
speaker-1 (00:27)
I'm Melissa, and this is the Kibbits.
speaker-2 (00:31)
To where I was, Mishbucha, because Melissa just corrected me. We have got Rabbi Austin Zoot here. I have known Rabbi Austin Zoot as a rabbi in our congregation for six years. he has been my employer light because I talk back, and I am on the board, so I'm potentially his employer as well. It is very strange.
speaker-0 (00:52)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (00:56)
but he's also someone I go to for advice, for a sounding board. and I think he's kind of fun. and smart. I should add that too. So Rabbi Zoot, now that I have done my random introduction, could you tell us about yourself?
speaker-0 (01:13)
Sure. I'm I'm Austin Zoot, and I'm incredibly honored to be welcomed on the podcast. It's really it's a treat to get to be welcomed into conversations about Jewish stuff. And I like to joke that our theme of Torah study is isn't the stuff cool. Sometimes I use the word stuff, other times other words. But anyway, it's wonderful to be invited on and get the chance to talk about cool Jewish stuff.
speaker-0 (01:36)
I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and went to Indiana University, so I joke the Cincinnati journey is the continuation of my southeastern travels. I have no plans to do any further traveling though, so that's good. I live here in Cincinnati with my wife Dory and our daughter Sophie, and we've really made a home here and really found a really beautiful community where we get to raise a family and
speaker-0 (02:00)
really fall in love with this place and this community. So it's a real extension of that to be welcomed on.
speaker-2 (02:05)
So your role when you were first hired on, you were a rabbi educator or were you first an educator?
speaker-0 (02:12)
So
speaker-0 (02:12)
it's a fun story, if you don't mind. when I was the rabbinic intern at Valley, they were looking for an education director. And at the time the job posting went live and it was not a rabbi educator position. There wasn't really enough money to make it a compelling option for for me. I definitely had that feeling of, I don't really want to leave, but
speaker-0 (02:37)
Just it wasn't a rabbinic position and I had worked too hard to go be a rabbi somewhere. And Valley just didn't find the right person for that job. And so at Biennial in 2019, we were hanging out and Rabbi Kopnik asked me to sit down for meeting. And he said, We've been discussing this education position, and somebody wanted to know what happened if we turned it into a rabbi educator position. Would you come? And I said, that would be awesome. We had looked at the options and placement and
speaker-0 (03:07)
There were some great options, but staying home and being a valley was the perfect fit. And so I said, you know, this is the lowest dollar value in placement. If you beat it by a dollar, I'll quit placement. And they did more than that. They really went out and made me feel valued, which was incredibly valley of them. And I've come to know that's the standard of how we treat people. But I stuck around and it was just the perfect fit. My wife was desperate to stay, which is
speaker-0 (03:33)
Very ironic considering the west coaster that she is. she arrived in Cincinnati and said, We're doing one year here and then we're moving to LA, to the LA campus. And that was a real transition for her when she then was begging to stay in Cincinnati. So you know the city worked its magic. So I've been the rabbi educator for six years. and I really had no interest in being a rabbi educator. I really wanted to be a a rabbi, in an associate or assistant role.
speaker-0 (03:58)
And education was the way I got to stay, and boy, have I fallen fallen in love with it since.
speaker-2 (04:04)
And we've really enjoyed having you as our rabbi educator. I remember finding out that we, as I said, we got to keep you. And it was, it was good. The whole community was so excited. And Rabbi Kopnik pulled me aside one day and said, We are so lucky that Rabbi Zoot agreed to stay. And it's true, we were so lucky.
speaker-0 (04:23)
That's always I like to say that the healthiest relationships between rabbis and congregations are the one where each think they're pulling the fast one because they're luckier than they deserve. So with the fact that that's mutual is pretty great.
speaker-2 (04:35)
So thank you. we asked you here today, dun, dun, dun, to discuss Jewish education. How fitting. Which makes sense since you are a rabbi educator and I have worked for you as a teacher. And you and I
speaker-0 (04:50)
The phrase worked with me.
speaker-2 (04:52)
worked with you. We did work together on this one a lot. and I learned a lot about Jewish education. And you and I had a lot of conversations about how Jewish education now.
speaker-2 (05:03)
Is so different than when we were when I was growing up. and I had a conversation with my dad today, and his experience in Jewish education was pretty bad. He told me that his parents forced him to go. He said that the people who were teachers were not prepared to be teachers, and there was very little joy. for me, had a combination of reform education through Wise Temple.
speaker-2 (05:30)
And my mom was pretty sure I guess I needed something else to do. So I also did a conservative education through Northern Hills. that was that was weird, but I think it helped a lot. but religious school did not seem joyful, it was obligation. So I'm a mom and I decide my daughter needs to have her Jewish education. She needs to be able to.
speaker-2 (05:55)
Feel comfortable in a Jewish space. She needs to know who she is as a member of a minority. But I want her to have joy. And I want this to be meaningful without negative baggage. Enter Rabbi Zoot. Tell us how you do that. Because I think that's been our experience at Valley.
speaker-0 (06:13)
So glad to hear that, because it's certainly the goal. We have definitely had the experience in the last several years that so many of the people coming into our doors for the first time bring some level of religious baggage and drama with them. It has become uncomfortably normal that people's background with religion comes with feelings of condescension, feelings of doing it wrong, feelings of shame.
speaker-0 (06:39)
We had somebody call the office today in reference. I'm a member, I'm not a good member, but I'm not sure what that even means. What is a good member? I mean, we certainly like when people pay the dues they say they're gonna pay, but the idea that we're somehow taking attendance or keeping track of the number of commandments you observe in order to validate or invalidate you is something that the public certainly learned along the way. And I certainly don't know that they learned it from us.
speaker-0 (07:08)
At Valley Temple. but I think most of us have had the experience of walking into Jewish space and feeling judged and condescended and not comfortable. And it's antithetical to the point of the thing. And so I really bring that feeling of how do we want to make our our young people, but not just our young people, how do we want to make everyone who comes into our space feel when they approach Judaism and when they approach learning? And in the world in which we're living today.
speaker-0 (07:35)
Emotional care and seeing who people are and the things they're experiencing is really essential. And Judaism has a huge role to play in that. But first, we have to show people a how Judaism can inform the way they feel in certain places, and B that we're open to actually being in their real feelings with them and not coming in and telling them how they should feel. There's thousands of examples, but
speaker-0 (08:04)
It is very common in our religious school experience. one of the things that I cherish about Valley, and I just it is the s the the crown jewel of our experience, is every single child who is going to have a bar about mitzvah does all of their tutoring and preparation with the rabbis in lead up to the moment. There are no professional tutors, there are no teachers who are filling that gap. This is
speaker-0 (08:32)
Up to a year of relationship building, of learning that the rabbi's office is where we keep the candy and the dad jokes, that we're approachable. And it's a powerful and important. Well, it feels like we're in services.
speaker-0 (08:49)
this ability to spend that year getting to know our our students, not that we didn't know them before they came in, because this is this is an idea that perm permeates many more spaces than just the the preparation for that coming of age moment. But in that moment, I have come to learn ninety percent of our kids will cry at some point, but in the Bar or Bat Mitzvah process. It's not because we're so scary and intimidating.
speaker-0 (09:15)
It's because by design, this is a coming-of-age moment that requires a level of dedication, of learning, of pushing beyond what you know already, and of trying something knowingly uncomfortable. And I see those tears, those big feelings, not as a sign of we've traumatized, but rather they are giving us the sacred opportunity to look them in the eye and say, Your big feelings don't scare me. I'm here with you as you're learning.
speaker-0 (09:42)
I am going to expect things of you because that's what a relationship is. But that doesn't mean that you can't expect things of me, which include seeing your feelings, caring about those feelings, meeting you in them, and really letting you feel like that moment where you can't hide that being 12 sucks, and that being 12 is an incredibly fraught time, and expectations are piling up. And we know that we were 12 once too.
speaker-0 (10:10)
some of us much longer ago than others. not that I'm implying anything about the people I work with. I I very intentionally looked off into space. but to be able to make that child feel like they are known and cared for holistically is such a gift. And you see it in all of the statistics about loneliness and statistics about just despair that young people are bringing in the room. We're able to meet that with.
speaker-0 (10:37)
Dare I say a little joy, and not the joy of let's distract ourselves, let's not pay attention to what's going on outside, but really we have so much to be joyful about in this room. And even approaching negative feelings with a sense of gratitude and sanctity is a form of joy. It just doesn't come in the form of blissful happiness, which is a it's a powerful thing that we get to do at our congregation.
speaker-1 (11:03)
This is all very interesting for me to hear because I do not attend Valley and I didn't grow up at Wise. I grew up at Rockdale Temple, and that's where I got my primary Jewish education, and now attend Wise Temple. and Andrea, I think you and I were discussing before this a little bit our our individual approaches to education when we were growing up, and that might even be a topic for.
speaker-1 (11:30)
a future podcast. but for me, I I didn't it was definitely important in our family. I mean, it was something that was that was valued. And of course I always complain I didn't want to get up on Sunday morning. I wanted, especially as I got older, I wanted to sleep in and I didn't have that feeling of not wanting to go. I think in our family
speaker-1 (11:52)
We I grew up in the shadow of the Holocaust. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. and that was something I just always knew. So this feeling of wanting to be grounded in my Jewish education and my Jewish identity was always important to me, even from a very early age. Plus, when I was growing up, we had a
speaker-1 (12:09)
Yeah, relatively small class. I was in a a small class. And my best friend was in my class. So for us, it was always a time to get bagels together. And you know, we didn't see each other in school all the time. So we got to see each other on Sunday mornings. A kid was a prototype, if you will. Exactly. Exactly. you know, of course I complained. Every every child complains. No one wants to do additional schooling, you know, but but I don't think I had the same feelings that maybe you did, and Andrea. And I think that's something we'll discuss.
speaker-1 (12:37)
But then you start talking about the the Bar and bat mitzvah years. And I do have a distinct memory of being very involved in my junior high school's theater department at the time. And there were auditions for the play we were gonna do that year, which was Alice in Wonderland. And no, I'm sorry, that was the year after it was Tom Sawyer. And I didn't get to audition because I had to go to my
speaker-1 (13:03)
tutoring practices and my tutoring sessions, and I didn't get a role in the play. And that was very hard for me. because it was having to make a choice between the commitments and the interests of secular school and my Jewish education and my upcoming bat mitzvah. Ultimately
speaker-1 (13:28)
That year was wonderful, and my connection with my rabbis who were also very hands-on were ja I mean, we had a new rabbi that year that came on, Rabbi Goldman, and I just loved him. I and then the assistant rabbi at the time, I'm I I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I may have had a little crush on him. So it was it was great. I mean, we we we I it was it ended up being good. But that begs the question that the time kids spend in Jewish education is limited.
speaker-1 (13:55)
Not only because there are fewer hours available, but because sports and band and theater and other secular extracurricular activities compete for their attention. So what do you make the priority and what are the most important things you want students to leave with at the elementary, middle school, and teen levels? How do you you help balance that?
speaker-0 (14:17)
Yeah, it's a great question because that that fundamental challenge of how do you fit all of the things that are important to families and important to organizations into a single kid's life, especially if, I don't know, we care about the kid's well-being and aren't just trying to get as big a slice of the pie as we can, but actually are worried about how much of the pie the kid gets to enjoy. so we know, and it it makes us sad, but we know that.
speaker-0 (14:45)
One of the major challenges in the secular world is that if you don't show up to play rehearsals or or auditions, then you don't get to play. The same isn't necessarily true of Judaism. Missing a day of religious school does not come with social consequences in the same way that not showing up for practice does. I know most Jews who grew up
speaker-0 (15:10)
in religious school systems have those experiences of I had to choose between Judaism and secular activities. And most of the time secular activities win. And on one hand, it makes me sad because I think I think we offer something of value. I'd like to be on the list. But I also understand that at the end of the day, if there are social consequences everywhere, one of the things we can do to really provide a sense of care.
speaker-0 (15:38)
Is by not providing that social consequence that comes with all the shame and hardship that can put so much pressure on a young kid. look, we joke around, of course, making sure you're at soccer practice as an 11-year-old is how you're going to pay for college. So that scholarship is really important.
speaker-0 (15:58)
wink wink nudge nudge, it's a little tongue in cheek, but at the same time it's not. We do know that that's the pressure that comes with it. So we really try and calibrate too. We're gonna take what we can get, we're going to create an environment that says yes as much as possible while understanding that we have to create a product. And I don't like using the language of sales, but at a certain point, we have to think like a business because we we do have some of those values at play. And so when I think about
speaker-0 (16:26)
prioritizing what content are we going to deliver, how are we going to do these things? I always say if you try and accomplish all of your educational goals during the religious school years, you will not only fail, but you will alienate the student and they will feel your failure. Instead, what I try and do is realize that every opportunity I get to have young people in the room, or any people, again, education is not reserved for the young, but anytime you get a learner in front of you,
speaker-0 (16:56)
Prioritize the relationships and prioritize the joy of learning together because it will buy you more opportunities in the future. I'm not going to be able to guarantee that you'll know everything you need to know by the time you graduate high school. But if I make you feel loved and cared for and respected and valued, you'll come back and I'll get to teach you some more. And that that operating from a place of non-scarcity is something I think Judaism
speaker-0 (17:25)
Really struggled with institutionally. But I think we really have to come to terms with this is lifelong learning or it's never gonna work.
speaker-1 (17:33)
You know, a lot of the earlier years are focused, I think, on preparing the kids for their bene mitzvahs. but if you can instill in them this interest and this love of learning and this feeling that there's not consequence and they can come back to it as they get older, that lifelong learning is is so important. but in those earlier years, is the goal simply to prepare students for their bene mitzvah, or are there larger goals you hope students and families take away from Jewish education?
speaker-1 (18:00)
And I think you you you just touched upon that.
speaker-0 (18:02)
Yeah,
speaker-0 (18:03)
I think I I think it's really about making sure that we're creating a Judaism that feels accessible, that feels liveable, and that is given as a gift to families. Because look, we can do these things in practice, in theory, in in educational pedagogy at the congregation, but the most effective ways this makes an imprint on someone's heart is if they're practicing at home with their families. And Valley has been
speaker-0 (18:29)
Valley has been a trailblazer in welcoming interfaith families for generations now. Our rabbi emeritus, Saul Greenberg, who just recently passed away, was one of the first rabbis in the country, and definitely the first in this community, who was willing to say yes when everyone else was saying no. And as a result, we have students in our religious school that are third-generation intermarried products.
speaker-0 (18:57)
And we have the data, we have the evidence to suggest that two different things are true. One, the product of intermarriage intermarry at an even higher rate. But two, they also know how to prioritize Judaism in an interfaith setting, and they choose Judaism at an even higher rate because they know what it means to make it a priority. And so at the end of the day.
speaker-0 (19:20)
It really begs the question if the central value was, are you marrying a Jew? We might critique that era as a failure, but that's a bad yardstick if you ask me. It's much better to ask, how did we care for people? And how did we care for Jews? And we made that door open and welcome so that people who would have very easily fallen off the radar of the Jewish world actually found an opportunity to say yes, to double down, and to be embraced.
speaker-2 (19:45)
Austin, students arrive with very different learning styles. I've experienced in my own classroom, the different levels of knowledge, family structures, and levels of practice at home.
speaker-2 (19:54)
How do you approach that and how do you help your teachers think about realistic and meaningful goals when the abilities and knowledge is such a wide range in the classroom?
speaker-0 (20:04)
I love the question because for a while Valley was known as the congregation that you should go to if you had a child with learning disabilities. And it it it was a nice reputation to have because it meant that people who so often were told, Why can't you fit into a box were being told at our congregation, throw the box away. And the reality is I don't think that was a special needs issue. I think it was a individual care situation.
speaker-0 (20:34)
We have classes small enough and we have communities intimate enough that our teachers can look at the students in front of them and not plan a curriculum for what do I do when I have a child on the autism spectrum, but rather, what do I do when Johnny walks in the door? Because we can care about a person so much better than we can care for a systematic diagnosis.
speaker-0 (20:59)
And I have found we've had that for our students who are so advanced that they're bored and that that might cause behavioral challenges. It's not uncommon at all. We actually have a student who goes to Rockworn. So she's getting supplemental education, plenty. she doesn't need to learn Hebrew at the same level as her peers. And so I had a meeting with her and her parents.
speaker-0 (21:22)
And I very specifically said, I want to talk to you, the kid. I want you to tell me what do you love about secular school? What are your favorite classes? Now secular school at Rockworn, fair enough. But
speaker-0 (21:33)
What are your favorite classes and subjects? What are your favorite activities you do at school? What are things you like to do out of school? And eventually we came up with the idea that this is a kid who loves Minecraft. And so we created an entire curriculum around during the Hebrew experience while her peers were learning Hebrew. She came to the library and she got an iPad and she was building Minecraft settings of biblical stories so that she could then teach the first grade who were learning Bible stories. She could walk
speaker-0 (22:03)
them through what they were learning in visual form. Now all of a sudden she's getting supplemental education that works for her. She's getting an opportunity to feel seen and valued and like her rabbi created something that she cares about. And she gets to do some teaching where she feels excited about sharing Judaism with others, which that's kind of the whole ballgame.
speaker-0 (22:23)
So it that's one of the places where we f feel like we're able to just give each kid and each individual setting their own experience to make them have the the Jewish education they need rather than how do we make this as easy as possible to copy and paste as many times as as we can.
speaker-1 (22:41)
I have such a big smile on my face from that answer. That is fantastic.
speaker-2 (22:46)
So when
speaker-2 (22:47)
I was teaching, and my students had different abilities different ways of entering learning, and there were times when there was a student whose behavior was bothering me, and I remember texting Austin, and Austin looked at me and he said, That behavior might be bothering you, but the rest of the class isn't bothered, so this is a you problem. And that was a learning moment for me. Okay.
speaker-2 (23:12)
So my expectations have to be changed because this wasn't disrupting school, it was simply bothering me. And then there were an there were other students who we had to figure out the way in. Like so much is going on in this kid's head. This kid is amazingly smart, but how do we find the answer? And I think we got there.
speaker-0 (23:35)
Albert Einstein had that quote. And this may or may not be Albert Einstein. It's attributed to him. It's kind of like the famous Abraham Lincoln quote, Don't believe everything you hear on the internet. But he was known to say, if you ask a fish to climb a tree, the fish will spend its whole life thinking it's stupid. And I'm a big believer in
speaker-0 (23:54)
Stop asking fish to climb trees. It's not good for the fish. It's not good for me. It's not good for the tree. So enough's enough. Let's actually take a look at who's in front of us and put them in settings where they can thrive. Especially because as more of the world gets automated and more of school settings are trying to how do we get you prepared for standardized tests that not only are are not helping us actually sort kids it based on talent level, but also.
speaker-0 (24:20)
Generally incoherent in their assessment of skill, we have a a powerful role to play as a counterbalance.
speaker-1 (24:28)
So let me ask you this. I think that when you were giving that example of the student who built the Minecraft world and then was able to take ownership and teach the younger classes, that is just so inspiring. And how do you teach students to engage with real Jewish ethical and theological questions as they grow older?
speaker-1 (24:51)
things like Teshuva and Lash Lashan Hora, differing approaches to Zionism, which is complicated for even adults to have in conversation. how do we introduce students to those ideas in ways that are meaningful, nuanced, and age appropriate without oversimplifying them?
speaker-0 (25:12)
The age appropriate one is is
speaker-0 (25:14)
The particular sort of blinking red light on the dashboard of Judaism right now. there was a movement that started several years ago, not in this period of Zionist discussion, but maybe the last one or the one before it. Because we s we have these conversations in the Jewish world and the non-Jewish world about every six months. October 7th has made it so that it feels like it's new and shiny. We've been having these same conversations as long as I've been having them, and much longer than that.
speaker-0 (25:43)
But the idea of this this group of my peers, mil young millennials, came together and created a movement called You Never Told Me, right? And it was centered around, you made me feel like Israel was all camels and hummus. Why didn't you teach me at a more nuanced rate? And obviously.
speaker-0 (26:03)
I try and bring compassion to everybody I interact with because look, we all have our own settings. And I I know how jarring it is to go into a space and learn things that you feel like you should have learned somewhere along the way. And feeling like the people who were supposed to be teaching you how to handle this with nuance instead gave you talking points and made you a automaton can feel really icky. That being said, my criticism of my peers was.
speaker-0 (26:31)
But how long did you stay in the room to be told, right? We're gonna teach a certain level of Israel relationship in second grade that is second grade appropriate. That doesn't mean it's going to be seventh grade appropriate. But if you bail too early and you're not here to engage in the conversation, I don't wanna judge you for that, right? I'm not sitting here going, well, you chose other things, so this is your fault.
speaker-0 (26:55)
We're if those if you chose other things, that's you're allowed. That is how you human beings have to make priorities. But you can't really get mad at us organized Judaism because we didn't teach you things while we were talking to an empty room. Or rather, we were talking to a room full of people who actually learned the lesson and you weren't there to experience it. So one of the things, and again, that sounded incredibly judgmental and condescending from the rabbi who just said we don't want to be doing that. But I think there is a honesty to look, we're not getting everything right.
speaker-0 (27:23)
But we need to have enough of a relationship for us to be able to continue to grow and learn. It it isn't very fair for us to have a referendum on our educational experiences without really doing the deep dive of what did you experience? Now, that being said, I also think about this with God often. And I have a two and a half-year-old daughter. She's coming home from Rockworn singing Mozi. She wants to bless everything we eat, and it's adorable, and she gets it. And yet.
speaker-0 (27:50)
She she can articulate the word God. She doesn't know what God means. I'm not sure I understand what God means half the time. And how do you have those conversations at a level that makes sense to a two-year-old brain, a five-year-old brain, a nine-year-old brain in order to lead to an adult brain? And in a lot of ways, I think long and hard, and I talk about the navel gazing experience of being a rabbi, but I think long and hard about how do we teach things that are true.
speaker-0 (28:18)
And also leave space for nuance without having to contradict ourselves later. If you teach about a God who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then took a nap on the seventh, and then you try and introduce the, well, God isn't an anthropomorphic being, all of a sudden everything you just taught me feels like it's been retconned. It's been taken away after the fact. And that's it's not a healthy way of experiencing God. Instead,
speaker-0 (28:45)
What does it look like to acknowledge God is the answer to the questions we don't know how to answer in any other way? Well, kids understand questions. As a matter of fact, they ask millions of them. And so to engage with that question of, you know how you ask me a question and then you double down with why, and then I give you a why and you give me another why, and all of a sudden we're six layers deep and I ran out of answer? Well, that's kind of where God hangs out.
speaker-0 (29:12)
That's where God lives is the seventh layer of why. I think a kid can at least grasp that they can't grasp that, and it leaves space for, now look, let's say the quiet part loud for a moment. I am in the whole optimist-pessimist world, I like to say I am a constantly disappointed idealist, right? And so there are definitely things that I like to teach at a highfalutin level while not really worrying about the fact that a third grader won't know what high-falutin means.
speaker-0 (29:40)
At the same time, my wife and I talk a lot about the idea that in parenting, you have to do things the day before you need them, not the day after. And look, I know that some of the things I'm going to say are probably gonna go over the head of many of the students I talk to, but the tone of voice I use, the joy I hope I bring, and the way I make their questions feel welcomed will be the resonant pieces. Any single bit of incoherent nonsense I threw out along the way.
speaker-0 (30:09)
We'll probably be forgiven. And if not, they'll have enough of a relationship with me to call me on it. So I I really, in terms of how do you balance all of these really complicated issues, the last piece of the ethical piece and how how do we really engage with morality, you have to engage with the questions that matter to these kids. They are facing ethical dilemmas constantly. They're coming home from school trying to figure out how to exist in the world. And
speaker-0 (30:36)
There are some places where Judaism has eternal answers that can be really beautiful and helpful. And other places where only speaking in the language of antiquity can make this feel archaic in a way that Judaism is actually incredibly applicable. and and how do we give our the parents in our program and the adults in our congregation the tools and the power to to know how to navigate where do I look for Jewish ethics?
speaker-0 (31:04)
The world of you only know how to navigate Talmud if you have a rabbi around is gone. Internet connection has totally changed the way you access information. And so I don't need to be a library. I need to be a librarian. I need to help people navigate the world that they already have access to, but don't always know how to get in. And so I really try and stay up to date as often as I can on what are the different ways that
speaker-0 (31:32)
Are experiencing the world, and how do we adapt that that learning to really match their needs? I played, and and this is a totally different side of the same coin. I played so much Fortnite during the pandemic. It's not because I was having a particularly great time of it, although, let's be real, what else was I going to be doing with my time? I did it because at the time, all of our kids in our religious school were playing Fortnite, and I wanted to be able to talk to the kids who
speaker-0 (31:57)
Had nothing what did you do at school today? I sat on my laptop and watched a teacher talk to me for seven hours. Now here we are with you talking at me for another hour. What am I doing here? For us to be able to have those contact point moments and be able to say, I I at least am willing to try to care about what you care about in order to make the things I think will be of value to you relevant and relatable.
speaker-1 (32:21)
I think that these kids, depending on where they fall right now in their education, have experienced things that that we never did. The pandemic, AI, the internet, all these outside forces, and now, of course, October 7th. which if they're just entering the world of education, this is like a post-October 7th world.
speaker-1 (32:44)
So how has Jewish education changed since October 7th? Are students asking different questions now and our parents looking for something different from Jewish education than they were just a few years ago?
speaker-0 (32:57)
Part of my knee-jerk reaction is that education hasn't changed enough after October 7th. I was very surprised how quickly our religious school students got on with their lives and were ready to sort of recalibrate to a new normal. I think that's one of the symptoms of living in the push notification world in which we exist. That, you know, if we if we totally recalibrate the world and lose our minds every time.
speaker-0 (33:24)
The New York Times thinks breaking news has happened. It's gonna happen multiple times a day. I think these students really struggle to contextualize what's on on a skill, one to ten, what is a five breaking alert because people make money every time I look at my phone, as opposed to what is a ten. No, we need to calibrate to this. And so I think October 7th was in some ways oddly move passable by many of our students because.
speaker-0 (33:49)
Let's just add it to the list of things I don't understand. That being said, I think Israel education has become incredibly fraught. The idea of what do you mean when you use the term Zionist? What do you mean when you use the term lover of Israel? How do you balance all of those things? That has become so fraught that there are there are, I find, two options, and I choose neither of them. Option one is to flee.
speaker-0 (34:18)
I don't want to do anything about Israel because it's just not worth the trouble. It's not worth the heartache. I get such limited time. I want to use it on positive things and and joy. Which there's plenty to talk about, but I think it does set our children up for failure later when they don't get a vote as to whether or not issues of Zionism and and October seventh and anti-Semitism and all of those topics come up. The other option is of course to double and triple down on our hard fought ideologies.
speaker-0 (34:43)
Zionist congregations become hardcore Zionist congregations, anti-Zionist organizations and institutions become self-righteously anti-Zionist. And the reality is, we have to live in the middle. We live in a very black and white world. We need to live in the gray. Judaism owes us processing the gray space. And one of the ways I really try and do that is by navigating the Zionism that can love Israel.
speaker-0 (35:11)
While also understanding that Israel has political challenges. I mean, let's look at this country for a second. How can you be an American and not feel that sense of I love the values my country espouses conceptually, and I'm not thrilled with the execution? I mean, every American can say that in the last eight years. That's a really playing it safe, politically correct.
speaker-0 (35:36)
Way of avoiding the issue by saying everybody on both sides of the aisle has been upset at some point in last eight years. but it's very possible to say, I love this country and I don't like what it's been doing. How come we can't do that with Israel? And teaching young people how to love something conceptually and maybe even demand better of it is a powerful tool that they then can have ownership of and take with them into other corners of their lives.
speaker-0 (36:02)
Let alone what happens when they have to turn around and be Americans tomorrow, because they're probably gonna do that too. so it there are places where any of the situations we're navigating, October 7th at the top of the list, but definitely not the end of the list, all of the values of nuance and compassion and being present together, and how do we have safe argument? How do we look at each other and say, I disagree with you? And that's okay, Jews disagree on things.
speaker-0 (36:26)
And it's not that happy go lucky, isn't it sweet we disagree on the value of things? But it's the really important, I have enough trust in you that I believe the fact that we disagree means you understand something differently than I do, and we reached conclusions based on having taken different paths somewhere. I used to tell some of our congregants, you know, I have to be the rabbi to each of my congregants.
speaker-0 (36:50)
That means I'm going to rabbi to someone who voted differently than I do. My job is to be present with them as a person, not shut down that conversation based on my perception of their voting booth behavior. Doesn't mean I can't have red lines. If you treat someone with the level of cruelty that I associate with certain policies, then I'm going to have a problem. And you're not going to be able to express that in the space.
speaker-0 (37:16)
At the detriment of someone else being able to be here. That doesn't mean you can't think what you think, and it doesn't mean we can't talk about it, because you have to feel safe with your rabbi just like everybody else. And I also like to believe for people who don't think like I do, the best way to get them to change their mind is to show them that I can think differently than they do and still be kind and and gracious about it. Relationship is the way you change somebody's mind, not yelling into the void. That's actually a great way to get people to double and triple down on their own.
speaker-0 (37:45)
ideologies. So that sense of openness is also something we try and teach along the
speaker-2 (37:50)
So these skills about having discussion, a sense of openness, and dealing with complexity are things that I, as an adult, still working on. To try to teach them to kids is one thing. But this is something you and I have discussed for a while. We've tried to model to our students, we've tried to model to them, teshuvah we've tried to model to them. You know, just what does it mean to disagree?
speaker-2 (38:17)
In a space and know that each each person is valid. but after a bat mitzvah or a bar mitzvah, a lot of kids are like, and I'm done, peace out, I'm leaving. And then they don't get this wholeness of Jewish education that I think continues on your whole life. Sarah Hurwitz wrote about it, and you and I've discussed that she has a really interesting discussion about like.
speaker-2 (38:43)
Once you start studying Jewish text and Jewish themes, you're not going to be bored ever. There's too much to go into. And there's so many, interesting arguments and different tools about how to be a good human being. so how do we encourage adults to keep learning and to indulge or hold those complexities, hold two different ideas at once and understand that in that
speaker-2 (39:06)
Tension is where the beauty is.
speaker-0 (39:08)
I love it because first off, I have to disagree with the idea that kids have their Barabat mitzvah and then they disappear. I've been at our congregation six years. We haven't lost a single kid within two years of their Barabat mitzvah in my career. I'm gonna say that again. I've been here six years. We have not had a family quit their membership or had their kid not come to religious school in the entirety of those six years, for at least two years after the Baraba mitzvah.
speaker-0 (39:34)
That is a statistic that most rabbis would beg for. And I think it all comes back to those relationships that we were talking about. When you have a strong sense of relationship and connection, it isn't I'm quitting an experience. It's I'm quitting on a on a community and I'm quitting on people. And people don't like to do that nearly at the same level. So of course, that's a that's it's an important piece of the conversation. And boy, am I proud of it. But
speaker-0 (40:01)
It doesn't really do anything to answer your question, which is we need to figure out how to continue to have the conversation around Jewish identity formation and Jewish education continue to be relevant beyond the goals that we set out for clear benchmarks. Right. We so often think about the Barabat mitzvah as an off-ramp in some way to Judaism, even if we're not happy about it. The same can be said for we we treat confirmation or c as as a
speaker-0 (40:31)
Okay, you graduated in experience, now go figure it out on your own.
speaker-0 (40:35)
In reality, Judaism has the opportunity to be profoundly relevant at every phase of the life cycle. it is up to Judaism itself and thus the deliverers, the rabbis and educators and people who are tasked with delivering the product. It's up to us to figure out how to do that in a way that continually asks the question: how do I benefit from learning this? If you don't have an answer to that question,
speaker-0 (40:58)
You better stop and go back to the office and figure it out. Because kids these days have a BS detector that is so well calibrated. I mean, you're talking about AI and the impact of the internet and everything. There is a more good quality information to access than ever before in human history. Buried under 17 layers of slop. These kids have to be calibrated too. Is this worth my time and attention in the attention economy?
speaker-0 (41:24)
And if the answer is no, they you can't blame them anymore. We had a while where we tried that, it didn't work, and here we are. That being said, I think there's also a level of integrity you have to have for the for the work, right? I have to teach things that I believe have value, but also that feel like good Judaism. There are definitely versions of Judaism can be whatever you want it to be, that plays nicely with the subscription model.
speaker-0 (41:52)
world we live in, right? You go to Netflix to watch the TV shows you want. If you don't like scary movies, Netflix will stop showing you promos for scary movies. In Judaism, if we stop showing you the things that make you uncomfortable, all of a sudden you start having a very narrow perspective. Now, that's not the same thing as forcing you to engage with things that that bother you. It's acknowledging that there is a depth of being human that sometimes we don't want to engage with, but we benefit from.
speaker-0 (42:21)
On the holistic level. we kept we keep using the word joy. I used to ask our students, Did you have fun in religious school? And Rabbi Kopnik came up to me, the senior rabbi, and he You gotta stop asking kids that. And he said, The goal isn't fun. If fun is the goal, let's shut down the school and go play soccer. Let's go ride our bikes. There's other things that can do fun better. But meaning making
speaker-0 (42:50)
And creation of joy and a sense of community, those are values we can hit. And so, what did you learn today is a much better question. how did you identify profundity today? is maybe not the kind of question you need to ask a third grader on their way out the door when lunch is being threatened. But that idea of how do you
speaker-0 (43:10)
undergird the experience with actually reminding them of what the values are underneath, people can tell that and they can understand, you know what, we're aiming for something different than just raw entertainment value, but actual value in their life.
speaker-2 (43:26)
So, how do we take these kids who see the value and will stay after their bar and bot mitzvah and my kid is one, and help them even after confirmation to understand that learning is a lifelong process. Jewish learning is a lifelong process. You were sneaky with me. a couple of years ago, you asked me to read Torah for Shivu.
speaker-2 (43:52)
And I was like, Well, last time I did this I was thirteen, but I can't say no. And it hurt my brain. And because of that, I decided to take adult Hebrew, which still hurts my brain.
speaker-0 (44:04)
Me too. Not you taking adult Hebrew, me taking adult Hebrew.
speaker-2 (44:09)
Potentially my being a student would cause you pain. I don't know.
speaker-0 (44:11)
You're in a different class, so if it was causing you pain in a different room for me, that would be fascinating.
speaker-2 (44:16)
Psychic powers,
speaker-2 (44:17)
I'm telling you. Is that in is that in Judaism? Why, thank you, Rabbi. so how do you encourage the entire family to continue with learning? Because emotionally, like a kid thirteen, fifteen, eighteen and their place in Jewish learning, it's gonna it's gonna change as that we become functioning adults.
speaker-0 (44:40)
There's an argument to be made that the bar mitzvah experience is the worst possible thing to do to a 13-year-old. Can if you s take a step back and really think about you are taking, let's let's play in the male gender for a moment. You're taking someone whose voice is about to change, or literally changed yesterday, making them chant words in a language they have not learned until recently.
speaker-0 (45:06)
Wearing a suit for the very first time in their life, the least comfortable shoes they've ever met in front of everyone they've ever cared about, and all of the young people that they were forced to invite to watch them in that moment. Thank God nobody's handing out tomatoes and lettuce to throw at you in the moment, because that's how it feels. This can be an incredibly intimidating thing to make a young person do. Talk about creating anti-Semitism. But there's an argument to be made for.
speaker-0 (45:31)
What would it look like if the coming of age moment was 16 or the coming of age moment was 18? Jonathan Haidt, the social psychologist in his book The Anxious Generation, talks a lot about the power of milestones and creating life cycle moments at different life stages because it helps propel young people through life in a way that the modern world of here's the internet, good luck, has not set them up for success. He begs some really important questions we as Judaism need to ask.
speaker-0 (46:01)
But that also comes in the form of we've been doing it this way for thousands of years. Changing because of the whims of the moment feels incredibly inauthentic. Feels like we're laughing in the face of generations that come before us. I feel like it is my obligation as a rabbi, as a Jew, and as a person to ask all of the questions. I like to say, no one can hurt my feelings with well-intended questions.
speaker-0 (46:29)
Because curiosity is how we're gonna get out of the mess we've created of the world. So the idea that asking, is this the right time for us to have this coming of age moment? is not laughing in the face or spitting in the face of tradition. It's actually engaging what was the point of this thing in the first place? How do we make meaning of it? And then how do we more accurately hit that target, even if it means shooting from a different distance or from a different angle? Now, by the way,
speaker-0 (46:58)
Andrea, one of the things you didn't mention about the experience of reading Torah on Shavuot is that I didn't ask you. I asked you and your daughter. I sat
speaker-2 (47:07)
That was so cool, wasn't it?
speaker-0 (47:09)
in the moment, so sever a couple of years ago, Shavuot is my favorite holiday. And I told that to Rabbi Kopnik, and he said, Great, it's your holiday. Go ahead. And he knew that I needed the creative outlet. I needed to be able to play with ritual and throw things around and try stuff and really get creative.
speaker-0 (47:27)
And so I've now had six shavuot to play with. How do we make Torah joyous and exciting? And how do we have that? Isn't this stuff cool that the congregation knows to expect from me? How do we make that a program? And that year I sat there and thought, who are how do we make the Torah reading not just someone standing up here reading words in a language half the people don't know how to approach, but how do we make it a meaningful moment for someone?
speaker-0 (47:55)
And thus everyone. And I said, what would it look like to have a a parent and a child read together in the experience of they're both preparing, they get to see each other doing the work, they get to see e how this is meaningful to one another. And then we as a congregation get to stand there and watch and say, How beautiful is this thing we all did together? And so I I I not to play Taylor Swift and show the master plan, but I definitely
speaker-0 (48:24)
orchestrated that moment to try and provide value because I thought it wouldn't resonate with you and I thought it would resonate with others. It turns out I was right. Let's not let's not throw out my shoulder patting myself on the back. But it's that attitude of how do we approach these moments, not just to check the box, not to just to accomplish it. Let's ask the same Torah readers who can always do this, but how do we ask people for whom this will be a manageable task?
speaker-0 (48:50)
It won't feel like a burden to the point that they'll fear Judaism, but it will push them just hard enough to ask the question, how is this matter to me? Why is this moment important? And I love when when we're able to see that someone approached it and found the moment as meaningful as I hoped they would, because that's what we're doing here. And the fact that you have subsequently read Torah again at Shavuot and wanted to learn more Hebrew and and have continued on that journey.
speaker-0 (49:19)
The goal wasn't necessarily to have more signups for our Hebrew program, but the goal was to provide the feelings that come from accomplishment and togetherness and the joy of sitting down in front of Jewish texts and and unlocking it and making it meaningful. All that stuff is what is what lights my fire, and all I want to do is light other candles with that flame.
speaker-1 (49:41)
I think joy is a word that keeps coming up in conversation both here for this episode and also recently in conversations that I've had in terms of Judaism, keeping joy in Judaism. And we are trying to make Judaism more joyful, but the Holocaust and anti-Semitism education are still necessary.
speaker-1 (50:05)
How do we teach these realities, no matter what age, without making fear and trauma the center of Jewish identity?
speaker-0 (50:14)
Yeah, joy joy and the Holocaust are not things you you're gonna usually gonna find in a sentence together. I'm actually working on a high holiday sermon for this year centered around the idea of Holoca Holocaust education. I grew up the child of the generation that were the children of Holocaust survivors. That meant that I was
speaker-0 (50:40)
old enough, or I am old enough rather, that I've met Holocaust survivors. My daughter is not going to have that opportunity educationally. At least not at a period while she where she'll remember it. That's the nature of history. It's it is fading into into the background. We're at a pretty powerful inflection moment in the history of Holocaust education because the Holocaust is receding into history in such a way that
speaker-0 (51:04)
I think the generation we're teaching now is going to have a relationship with the Holocaust more similar to the the relationship they have with the Inquisition than with October seventh. Again, I like to engage with things that make people uncomfortable because that topic is enough to make many rabbis hair burst into flames.
speaker-0 (51:25)
I try not to hold judgment on those moments because what are we gonna blame a bunch of children for being born at the wrong time to care about something a different way? That being said, that my generation was very much, and the generation older than I was definitely raised with you have to be Jewish because of the Holocaust. My opinion, that has been one of the most dramatically unhelpful sales pitches in the history of Jewish sales.
speaker-0 (51:50)
You should do something because of other people who were killed for it is a level of obligation and pressure and real attachment to suffering that is too big for a child to carry. That being said, we can't just ignore it, right? I'm first of all, I want to teach about the Inquisition too, because it's an important piece of Jewish identity. But how do we calibrate our education so that the Holocaust has the right
speaker-0 (52:19)
Amount of weight it carries in the system without overburdening it or underburdening it. Right again, the overly joyful let's just talk about hummus and camels is gonna come back and bite us. But the let's spend a year learning about the Holocaust and traumatize everybody, there is a book. it's called The Devil's Arithmetic. I read it in school, I didn't sleep for a month.
speaker-0 (52:45)
My wife read it in school. She didn't sleep for a month. We didn't know each other at that time, but boy, have we talked about it since. And neither of us slept that night either. It was traumatizing. It was not age-appropriate. But that sense of we have to teach the young people or else they won't get it. That pressure is so much to carry. And instead of trying to, in some way, make make value out of the Holocaust, get something good to come of it by
speaker-0 (53:12)
Making this a generation that will carry the flag. Instead, how do we calibrate to this is a moment in Jewish history that was incredibly significant, that taught us in an incredible amount of information about how we're perceived in the world, that was an inflection point for how we would be treated going forward. It's not like anti-semitism died with the end of the Holocaust, but it definitely changed. The the willingness of the public to be openly anti-Semitic.
speaker-0 (53:41)
has fluctuated a great deal since the 1950s. And that ebb and flow is a direct reaction to the Holocaust. So in the same way that understanding the Jewish experience in Europe in the 15, 16, 1700s helps us understand things like I always like to talk about if if you if you were to if I were to send in my swab for 23andMe, the results would come back that I am a hundred percent Ashkenazi Jew.
speaker-0 (54:10)
That is a nonsense thing, right? That that's not a place, right? My my sister in law does the same test, and because she's not Jewish, she comes back with German and English and Polish and all these things. But ours are not geographies, ours are a peoplehood. And that is DNA evidence for anti Semitism. Historically, we haven't been able to mix with anybody else because we had to live over there, separated, in camps at worst or
speaker-0 (54:40)
ghettos and we had to maintain a sort of a form of tribalism that then was used as a weapon against us. We were forced to be tribal and then we were told we weren't part of everybody else because we were tribal. So we had to double down on our tribalism so we could be used and abused for it later. That cycle has gotten into the genetic coding of my being that makes understanding that moment in history
speaker-0 (55:05)
far more understandable and attainable and relatable than just you need to understand anti-Semitism as an academic practice. And so how do we let those pieces of history that for better and for worse are history? They're not the now experience that they were, frankly, for the past 75 years, how do we let that grow and evolve as we do? That's our job as educators, is to continually ask, not just
speaker-0 (55:35)
I believe in my soul that it's worthwhile young people understand the Holocaust, but why? If you can't ask answer that question, go back to the office and figure it out. But I think we can figure out why. I think there's great answers to why. And that's where we need to go next. So I I think there's a real recalibration Jewish education needs to be going through. And I think we're doing that in many spaces. There are incredibly bright, thoughtful Jewish professionals.
speaker-0 (56:02)
Who are asking all of these questions and engaging. And this is a generation of CEOs and presidents of congregations and rabbis and professionals in all forms who are starting to ascend into the ranks and it's starting to have an impact on how we think of things. Not because the generation before us was wrong and stupid, not at all. They were doing that in their moment. And then the moment shifted. I think about the phrase all the time.
speaker-0 (56:27)
how do you go into the locker room at halftime of the Super Bowl and tell a team they need to change the strategy that got them there? It's hard to tell a generation of Jewish professionals, you did a great job of getting us to this moment, and now it's time for you to back off because the situation has changed. First of all, you don't need to back off. We just need to be partners. We need to create enough space that diverse opinions can get in the room so we can create something cool together. Because Judaism is one of the last spaces where we have true intergenerational conversations.
speaker-0 (56:54)
communication and dialogue in a way that is powerful and impactful. And we need to hold on to that 'cause it's gonna again, it's gonna make every conversation we have to have on all the other spaces so much more valuable.
speaker-2 (57:04)
Rabbi Zoot, I have of course more questions to ask you. and I am going to ask you back for another discussion about Jewish ethics. It's going to be super fun.
speaker-0 (57:14)
Don't threaten me with a good time.
speaker-2 (57:17)
but I want to ask you now, as someone who's worked with your teaching, and my favorite thing to tell my students was looking back at Jewish history, it's a miracle we get to be together. It's a miracle you're in this room with me, and we have the privilege of learning together.
speaker-2 (57:33)
That helped us frame the entire year. What gives you hope right now about Jewish education? What are you seeing in students or families that makes you optimistic about the future of Jewish life?
speaker-0 (57:49)
It doesn't take much to make you optimistic when you look at these kids and these young people who are bringing such creativity and such joy and exuberance for life that I not to answer your question in the total reverse, but I'm really worried about the experience for young people.
speaker-0 (58:09)
I think that there is so much in our world that is trying to crush their joy and enthusiasm and and really put them into a box so that they can be productive in a system of of productivity we've created. And it makes me so joyful to see these young people come into a space where you can feel that they feel different in this in this place. I got an email recently.
speaker-0 (58:33)
we had done a program that our middle schoolers had participated in. I think I shared this with you because it was in your class. I sent individual emails to each of the families who had participated in this program. It was the retreat that we went on. And I sent an email to each set of parents saying it was such a treat having Andrea on the retreat. I I loved getting to spend time with them doing this. And it was so cool getting seeing them inspired about that and and trying to personalize it so that their parents could see how how much I
speaker-0 (59:01)
Cared about their kid. And one of the parents responded and said, it is clear that our child feels more like himself at Valley than anywhere else. That's the ballgame. That's all we ever need is for them to feel like they can be themselves and feel good about that version of themselves.
speaker-0 (59:23)
And we'll teach them how to do it in Jewish ways, and we'll let Judaism be the binding force that brings us together, and we'll let Judaism be the sacred chain that links us together. But Judaism isn't going to be worth anything unless that kid can bring himself, because Judaism is made up of all of the individuals who make it so beautiful. A Judaism without people is is a belongs in a museum.
speaker-0 (59:47)
care for the individuals, those individuals will bring all the things that will provide us all the hope we need. We just have to stop looking at the statistics books and we have to stop looking at the the the thought pieces that half the time I'm writing. So don't stop looking at them, but we have to stop worrying about the hand wringing that is the Jewish experience and really focus on people are magnificent. And Judaism gives us a way of understanding ourselves and each other that only makes it better.
speaker-0 (01:00:16)
And so there's I have no reason not to walk a w around, very hopeful for what can come next. Because look at these kids and look at these adults who get to teach them.
speaker-1 (01:00:26)
Yeah.
speaker-2 (01:00:28)
Thank you so much
speaker-2 (01:00:29)
for joining us. Thank you for coming up to Studio North. It was my pleasure. I look forward to learning more with you and having further conversations.
speaker-1 (01:00:37)
I think you may have recruited me to join in in this like learning a new
speaker-0 (01:00:41)
And he said,
speaker-1 (01:00:42)
one. That would be amazing. That's great.
speaker-2 (01:00:44)
There's
speaker-2 (01:00:44)
something so fun about adult education because it's exciting to argue argue with people and know that we're gonna come away like agreeing to disagree or seeing things differently. And then it's fun to stretch your brain. And that's what happens with adult ed, is it's stretched in the brain.
speaker-1 (01:01:00)
I think it's wonderful to do it at this age.
speaker-2 (01:01:02)
So Mishpocha, I highly recommend well, starting reading, starting Jewish education, or just starting something joyfully Jewish.
speaker-0 (01:01:10)
Find someone who you're excited to learn from and start a chat. Because that's the best way to do it is with a person.
speaker-2 (01:01:16)
Excellent. Excellent.
speaker-1 (01:01:18)
we can do that. Isn't that called the qubits? That is
speaker-2 (01:01:22)
well then this is my specialty. Mishpoche kibbits on.
speaker-1 (01:01:26)
Kip it's
speaker-1 (01:01:26)
on, everyone.