Reporting to the CEO - here's what we've learned

Are you about to report to the CEO? Are you already?

In todays episode, we share our experience reporting to the CEO.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (03:51) - Our first CEO
• (07:10) - Benefits and Challenges of Reporting to the CEO
• (13:03) - Effective Communication and Management Strategies
• (20:16) - Deliver 100% of your commits

This episode is brought to you by Fullcast, the only AI-powered platform that streamlines your entire sales lifecycle — from plan to pay. With modules like territory and quota management, routing, and capacity planning, Fullcast adapts to your unique needs — whether you need one solution or an all-in-one platform.

Ready to see the difference? Visit Fullcast.com and mention the Revenue Formula Podcast to unlock an exclusive premium gift, just for listeners!

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Creators and Guests

Host

Mikkel Plaehn

Marketing leader & b2b saas nerd

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

[00:00:00] Toni: Hey everyone. This is Toni Hohlbein. You are listening to the revenue formula with Mikkel and Toni.
[00:00:05] Toni: In today's episode, we are talking about what it really means to report to the CEO. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Enjoy.
[00:00:15] Toni: Before we jump into the show, today's episode is brought to you by Fullcast. The only AI powered platform that streamlines your entire sales cycle from plan to pay.
[00:00:27] Toni: Customers report up 80 percent cost savings, 20 percent growth in pipeline, and 30 percent boost in RevOps efficiency.
[00:00:34] Toni: With modules like Territory and Quota Management, Routing and Capacity Planning, Fullcast adapts to your unique needs whether you need one solution or an all in one platform
[00:00:46] Toni: Visit fullcast. com, book a demo, and mention the revenue formula podcast. To unlock an exclusive premium gift just for listeners
[00:00:57] Toni: And now enjoy the show.
[00:00:59] Toni: I would like you to maybe dress up a little bit nicer. You know, there's some people that, you know, watch us on, on YouTube. And, and they're just seeing what kind of a slob you are.
[00:01:08] Mikkel: So that means you're
[00:01:09] Mikkel: acknowledging, so basically you're acknowledging that they're also watching me. It's what you're saying, that's,
[00:01:14] Toni: Yeah. I mean, in those, in those mini cuts where you get, you know, you five words in per episode, that's where it kind of, they're seeing you. Otherwise, obviously it's focused on the star, you know?
[00:01:25] Mikkel: on the star. That's the funny thing is like, well, he's no longer just your co host. He's your, it's not really a co founder. Like we co founded this podcast together, but it's like, you know, business partner, I think is more accurate in this scenario. It's my, and who has closed the more, maybe we don't want to talk about that here.
[00:01:43] Mikkel: Jesus. So we just came back.
[00:01:46] Toni: what did you do on the weekend? Tell me
[00:01:48] Mikkel: We just came back from Sweden. Winter break with the kids and the family basically send home the father in law and sister in law. They drove home the day before us and they decided to drive late at night and what happened basically snow decided to appear for the first time.
[00:02:07] Mikkel: I want to say during this winter season and it took almost twice as long for them to get home. So that was, that was good for them. When we got up the next day to drive home, everything was perfect. It's like. Blue skies, sun was out, perfect roads, awesome, awesome experience. And
[00:02:24] Toni: I mean, my kids, my kids went what is it? Sledding, sledging. What is it?
[00:02:28] Toni: Sledding,
[00:02:29] Toni: sledding.
[00:02:30] Toni: Like here in the, in the park was pretty, pretty fun actually, twice down the hill and then walking up, you know, because obviously it's like, Denmark doesn't have hills, so there's also no lifts. So it's, it's all, it's all you walking up, but it was it was a good experience.
[00:02:42] Toni: It was fun.
[00:02:42] Mikkel: So when you say sled, went sledding twice, meaning they went for two, two trips up and down the hill and then done or like? Oh, you went there, spent an hour, went home. It's like, okay. So it's like,
[00:02:53] Toni: No, no, no. It was like, it was like two full trips, you know, two half days basically spent on the slopes. And
[00:03:02] Mikkel: did you have to take a ski lift up there or
[00:03:04] Mikkel: gondola?
[00:03:05] Toni: There was, you know, I was, I was looking for the Apre ski thing. None, none, you know, no lift, no Apre ski. I mean, it was pretty disappointing, but you know, it's, it's also Denmark.
[00:03:14] Toni: It,
[00:03:14] Mikkel: they could open
[00:03:15] Mikkel: a
[00:03:15] Mikkel: folly
[00:03:15] Toni: here. Like what? Twice or three times a year. Like that's
[00:03:18] Mikkel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, when you turn on the snow machine,
[00:03:20] Mikkel: that's when it happens. Or if you open the freezer and let it just stand there for the weekend, then, then you get it.
[00:03:25] Mikkel: Uh, Anyway, why don't we talk about this? Like, going sledding and I was going to say
[00:03:30] Mikkel: sledging
[00:03:30] Mikkel: going.
[00:03:30] Toni: Because, it's snowed in Denmark, you know, and we have to, you know, if it's not the kids, we have to talk about the weather in this case. We also got the kids in there. So I think we ticked all the boxes.
[00:03:40] Mikkel: You know, who else has kids? My old CEO, and I'm not talking about you, but my old, old, the one before you basically my first CEO.
[00:03:48] Mikkel: He, he had kids and it's funny. No, that was a terrible segue.
[00:03:51] Mikkel: We wanted to talk a bit about reporting to the CEO today. Maybe there's a listener who's already reporting to the CEO. Maybe there's someone who is about to, who wants to, I don't know, but actually it is a very interesting subject because it is very different.
[00:04:05] Mikkel: Reporting directly to the CEO. It's something both you and I actually have done. So we wanted to just dive into that topic today. And I think the first thing we wanted to cover is, you know, how did you end up totally reporting to the CEO?
[00:04:20] Toni: Yeah, I think it was lack of, lack of other options, you know, lack of alternatives.
[00:04:25] Mikkel: often basically saying, Oh, where do we put this guy?
[00:04:28] Toni: No, I think it happened well in the beginning it happened because I was like helping him out with a couple of things amongst other things. The, you know, closing the funding round. I think in today's world, you would call me something like a founder's associate or something like this. I feel like there's so many labels you can slap on me these days.
[00:04:45] Toni: So there, there was that. And then, you know, as, as I as I kind of got a real job eventually in that office, which ended up being like the sales ops rev ops piece, I was like, ah, you don't really fit here anymore. You now report to the. You know, SVP of sales and then that guy got fired and, and then there was no one really else.
[00:05:06] Toni: And then it's like, okay, I, I guess, I guess you roll up to me now, Tony. And, and I think that never actually changed since then anymore. Then I became the CRO and that obviously kind of, I was reporting to him, but I think that was kind of the. That, that was the path of necessity. It wasn't like, Ooh, you know, let's, let's hire this Tony guy and kind of get him in.
[00:05:27] Toni: That was the case then in the, in, in Planday, the other company bears basically hired as a CRO. And then obviously you
[00:05:32] Toni: report to
[00:05:33] Mikkel: yeah, no, I was going to say it's like, I think, so you and I worked at the same company and I think there's just a difference when you apply to a company as a C level, of course, you will roll into the CEO versus if you apply. To a small company like seed stage, there's a high likelihood you're going to report to the CEO because they're like 20 people.
[00:05:51] Mikkel: So where, you know, what do they, are they going to have a managerial layer? No, not, not, not necessarily. Right. And so it really depends on this stage. What was it like maybe just get, get that nuance as well. And, and I'll tell my story. What was it like actually working with the CEO in the early, early days at the first gig?
[00:06:07] Toni: I mean, this is like really long time ago.
[00:06:10] Mikkel: This is so disappointing.
[00:06:11] Toni: I know. No, I think, I think It's just a different expectation level, I think. And, and we're going to get to this in a little bit, a little bit deeper, but I think ultimately that's what it is. It's less, less BS, more talk on how to fix things and kind of getting things done.
[00:06:29] Toni: It's like, you need to realize that you actually are, you're expected to deliver actual results, like business results. And it's, it's less so about like what you've tried. And more so about what you have achieved. And I think that that makes you, makes you think about running a business and running a go to market in different ways.
[00:06:49] Toni: It's like not, Oh, let's send five more emails. And, Oh, they didn't reply. Well, you know, I did everything I could. It's like, I don't, I don't give a shit. What you tried just, just give me the, just give me the effing result here. Right. And, and I think that that kind of mentality I think it's really good to carry into any other role, any other reporting relationship, any, anything else going forward as well,
[00:07:09] Mikkel: yeah, I was going to say, there's a lot of benefits of rolling into the CEO that we might as well just cover now, because I think when, when I started reporting to the CEO, which is by the way, also was out of the necessity basically we had a VP marketing going on maternity. And then I kind of was, let's say next in line and, and rolled into
[00:07:28] Mikkel: the
[00:07:28] Toni: last, last man standing.
[00:07:30] Mikkel: Last man standing. Yeah, yeah. This is after a reduction in force. Just inside joke right there. But so, so basically I was fortunate enough to take care of the team through that difficult time and, and reporting into the CEO. And one of the things I always wondered was, am I getting the full story when management tells me something?
[00:07:48] Mikkel: Am I, am I really getting everything? What, what's, what's happening behind the curtain? And all of a sudden, when you report to the CEO, You're behind the curtain. You know exactly what, you know, you know, exactly what's going on. There might be some things, you know, that doesn't get divulged necessarily.
[00:08:02] Mikkel: If there's something happening in another team, that's just totally irrelevant. Do you know that would be gossip? But I feel like the benefit of rolling into the CEO is the amount of information you get makes it kind of clearer. Where's this machinery, you know, working towards what, where are we going towards and why.
[00:08:21] Mikkel: And what can you do to contribute? Because you have so much more information all of a sudden you can quite frankly, perform better. Right. And I was a bit surprised actually, I didn't feel like, Oh my God, this is like, now I've entered Narnia. It's an entirely different world. It's like, no, it's, I know maybe 5 percent more that, that I'm going to use.
[00:08:39] Mikkel: It's not like, things were being kept secret on, on, on that level.
[00:08:43] Toni: no, but I think you're, I mean, this is maybe not an upside, but, but you're definitely exposed to more of the chaos, more of the stuff that you otherwise aren't because that really becomes the second level you know, leadership's responsibility is to filter the
[00:08:57] Toni: message,
[00:08:58] Mikkel: yeah, yeah, yeah,
[00:08:59] Toni: like scale down the crazy and try and deliver like a nice experience for everyone working on a specific thing.
[00:09:06] Toni: Right. And I think what you, the, the good thing is you obviously have lots of access. And understand all of that stuff. But it does challenge you and your ability to communicate frankly, right, it's, it's not only starting to be a burden for you, so you have to do it. It's part of your job, but also you kind of need to translate the message.
[00:09:23] Toni: And I think this is this is a form of internal selling. I think that you, that you learn at this level that is, is extremely valuable. Right. And I think the. The other piece, I mean, if you roll to the CEO, you know, you, you have fewer links removed from, you know, the boss bars and, and that proximity also gives you gives you more money.
[00:09:44] Toni: Usually,
[00:09:45] Mikkel: I was just a budget.
[00:09:46] Toni: people are better, you know, they have bigger budgets. Yes. But also they get, you know, higher, higher salaries and get bigger titles and whatever you have. Right. So, so I think there's a couple of prestige and status items that definitely. Definitely a kind of a good thing running into the CEO.
[00:10:02] Mikkel: yeah, I was going to say, because you're basically removing a link. So for me, when the VP was out and I was straight reporting straight to the CEO, there was obviously a link removed in terms of if I wanted to do something or acquire something, the software or whatever, it's a lot easier. Like decisions happen a lot faster, which gives speed.
[00:10:22] Mikkel: To be honest and it's, I felt like sometimes when you're further detached from whoever needs to make the decision, there can be a lot of flip flopping happening and a lot of like back and forth where with the CEO is like very like, okay, how many more opportunities is it going to give me? And if you don't have the answer, it's like, okay, I guess we're going to pass for now on this thing.
[00:10:39] Mikkel: It's like very simple, honestly way of making decisions. But it makes it very easy for you to understand what is the motivation. And thereby decisions just happen faster and you gain an immense amount of speed. And, and yeah, because you're closer you will over time build trust, which means you will have an easier time getting access to budget.
[00:10:58] Mikkel: Even if you. You're not, you know, a hundred percent on your game one day, and you want to pitch something to the CEO if you've accumulated trust over time, so much easier. So there, there's a bunch of reasons why it's great. I think the last is kind of, you touched upon it briefly. It's the whole career element.
[00:11:13] Mikkel: I mean, I guess for both of us, it's been one of the ingredients to accelerate career growth. Do you want to maybe just tell a little bit more about how is it reporting to the CEO factored into that for you?
[00:11:23] Toni: Yeah. So I think, and maybe I'm just jumping ahead a couple of steps in my thoughts here. I think reporting to the CEO always exposes you way more to being what is it called? Skip leveled or be, you know, someone being put in between on top. And, and for some reason that kind of is, is one of the things I think that should be way more prevalent with everyone out there reporting directly to the CEO who isn't like the, the obvious on paper, clear choice for only this role, right?
[00:11:52] Toni: I think you know, that was the case when I, I I rolled into this guy, this was the case when you rolled into this guy that was always like, Oh, should we kind of, Get someone in who actually knows how this thing works, right? That, I mean, it's you're a little bit more under threat and kind of in that regard, but also at the same time, you need to you need to play it cool.
[00:12:08] Toni: Like you, you know, you, you are expected to try and do the best for the business first. Which might not be the best for you personally but he's just going to roll with that reality, right? Kind of true. You trying to get in the way of a good business decision that just makes you look stupid basically.
[00:12:23] Toni: And I think if you're, if you're rolling to someone else than the CEO. You know, I think I think, I think you get away with a lot more drama and a lot more like, oh, you know, but that would demotivate me a lot if someone else were to come in and, you know, then I'll leave, you know, and, and I think once you, once you roll to the CEO, kind of all of these things are starting to become like petty BS, like why, why are you annoying me with that stuff?
[00:12:49] Toni: And if you want to leave, then you probably will have to leave. But you pushing against something that makes total sense because of your emotions, I think we have a disconnect here. Right. And I think that's, that's just different when you roll to roll to someone like that.
[00:13:03] Mikkel: Yeah, so I mean, let's maybe continue down this path because I was literally thinking there's something around you being zero maintenance that's going to matter a great deal. If, if you roll into that person, you just have to acknowledge that he or she, no time, literally. No time, it's the most precious resource they have, and it is for anyone, but especially for the CEO, right, especially for the CEO.
[00:13:26] Mikkel: So if you take up a lot of time with drama and ineffective decision making or ineffective proposal, or just, you know, wasting an hour on a catch up, that's not. going anywhere you know what? They're going to start losing a bit of trust in you. They're going to not hold you in as high regard. I think that ability to require no maintenance and bringing just on, on the one on one level, bring an agenda and say, Hey, here's the decisions we need to make, here's the problems and how I'm going to handle them.
[00:13:55] Mikkel: End of story. That's like, stuff like that is, is tremendously important.
[00:13:59] Toni: Yeah. So, and in this vein and this both me having been a CEO and having, you know, rolled to two CEOs the, the thing is not that CEOs have less time. It's, I would say that's actually not necessarily
[00:14:11] Toni: true.
[00:14:12] Mikkel: have 24 hours.
[00:14:13] Toni: No, but everyone is busy. Don't get me wrong. I think what is different with CEOs is the.
[00:14:18] Toni: Crazy context switching that they need to go through all the time. So one session you're talking to the HR lead and have some like, you know, some summer party drama that you now need to help, you know, clean up the next meeting you have, you're talking to someone from the press and need to give them some story where everything's great.
[00:14:37] Toni: And then the next meeting you have you know, investor that tells you that your company's shit. And you need to kind of maybe do something else. And, and then the next meeting you have a, you know, a marketing strategy session, right? It's like the context switching is just off the charts. So, and you know, how do you, how do you deal with that?
[00:14:52] Toni: Well, well, you, you can't really, you have to, you have to expend a lot of energy to kind of get into the new context and what anyone that can, you know, that, that is in the room can help you with. Just keep it simple, just keep it fricking simple. What do you want to bring to the table? Give, give an agenda upfront.
[00:15:11] Toni: I think that's always great. I'm really terrible with that. But if someone brings an agenda to me, it's like, I love you a little bit now. And then Jen, you know, have a, have a, and then, and I think in consulting circles is kind of top down communication. It's like, tell me what, you know, the point is first and then give me all the details.
[00:15:29] Toni: Instead of what most of us, you know, used to like detail, detail, detail, detail, detail, detail. And all of these details that you don't need to understand, they lead to this outcome here. Do it the other way around, like, Hey, this is what we need to do in here. The top three reasons why I think that's important.
[00:15:43] Toni: And if you, if you do that what you will do is you will kind of take some of the. Mental load of the CEO of needing to do all those acrobatics, him or herself, which they're by the way, totally capable of. It's not, it's not about that. You need to do dumb it down because they're stupid people. It's just it just, you help them with the context switching.
[00:16:04] Toni: If you, if you kind of, you know, you know, work it up a little bit for them and easier, make it easier to digest.
[00:16:09] Mikkel: it's like, it's also a great way to be effective with time. It's called the state improve a framework almost like here's the statement. Now I'm going to prove why, why the statement is true. So if, if there's a problem and you're presenting a solution, you don't need to dive into the causes of the problem.
[00:16:25] Mikkel: Like it might be that the CEO actually is curious to say, Hey, Why did this happen? Like, I, this is the first I'm hearing off it. It could also be that they're aware of the problem or actually they just get it. You don't need to explain it. Same with the solution. So it's just insanely efficient. It's like, if I'm going to be in a content meeting with someone and they're going to present me the whatever plan and they start explaining how SEO optimization works.
[00:16:52] Mikkel: I'm going to be, Hey, I've done that for years. I already, you don't need to explain it. Let's just go, let's go. Right. And it's the same. Also, I think for, for the CEO, to your point, they're not, they're not stupid. So, but I think this is really about the, this is very much upward management to a large degree
[00:17:07] Toni: yeah, you're right.
[00:17:08] Mikkel: and being proactive, which is I think very much necessary here.
[00:17:11] Mikkel: Like, the less you can, the simpler you can make things for them and the less you can bother them. The better you're going to be. But there's another element, which is you also want to build some trust. You also want to build your career. And part of that, quite frankly, requires Redland execution. I feel like when I moved from the comfortable VP marketing as my manager to the CEO, it felt like somehow all bets were off.
[00:17:36] Mikkel: Do you know what I mean? It's not like I had all those guardrails. I had all the safety nets around me to kind of support me. It's like, no, no. You're reporting to the man now. This is it. There's no further to go, almost. So if you screw up, it's like, you better come with a way to remediate it.
[00:17:53] Toni: No, I mean, there's no cozy layer in between anymore, right? You're, you're responsible. You are responsible. And especially if you're leading up a specific department, marketing sales or CS and the go to market realm, it's like you are responsible for these outcomes there and, and it's very unambiguous on like what those, what those outcomes need to be at least on, on a super simplified CEO level marketing, you need to generate pipeline sales and hit the target.
[00:18:17] Toni: And CS needs to kind of fix churn, like that's it, like all of the other things kind of got the window, right. And, and then whenever you bring anything to the table, that doesn't kind of contribute to those things. It's starting to be like, why, why are we talking about this? Obviously there are a couple of other topics like, you know, personnel leadership, and it's also a boss relationship where you can have a conversations like, Hey, you know, I have this director and I'm not so sure about him or her anymore.
[00:18:44] Toni: And maybe I need to, like, there's obviously some sparring going on. But, but usually it all breaks down to you are, you know, responsible with this part of, you know, how the company value chain works. And what are you doing to kind of get there? And if you fail, you will make everyone else fail and you will make the company fail.
[00:19:03] Toni: So you better, you better don't mess up. Right. And and obviously this never fully works out. So on the one hand side, you need to push and get as close as possible. But also when you yourself start seeing, it's not going in that direction. You know, the earlier you raise the hand and say like, here's an issue, but I'm working on it X, Y, and Z that kind of, those are the things I'm doing the better.
[00:19:24] Toni: Right. So what, what you don't want to have happen as a, as a CEO is too many surprises at the same time, especially very short to where you need to be accountable in the board meeting or something like this, right. You want to have a little bit of time. Before I need to, you know, address your bosses, basically to build up the story arc to kind of think about how do all of these pieces now work together?
[00:19:46] Toni: What's the story? How can we make sense of this? And and surprises don't help you surprises kind of go in the opposite direction of this, right? So You this is part of also, you know, being a trusted person on the team is sure hitting targets. That's the easiest, then you're the best friend. And if you don't hit targets, kind of say it as early as you can in order to help him or her do her job in you know, getting the story kind of straightened out and, and figure out what to do and potentially with a CFO in order to operate the company.
[00:20:16] Mikkel: I agree. And I think it also made me think a little bit about the basically the, the hybrid, let's call it the a hundred percent rule. You need to deliver a hundred percent of your commitments. And I mean, in general, that's a good rule to have in any case, whether you're reporting to a VP or the CEO, but I think.
[00:20:32] Mikkel: Because all bets are off of the CEO, you want to deliver a hundred percent of your commitments to that person. And I think the interesting piece is, it kind of changes what that looks like depending on the stage of the company. Probably also depending on the type of CEO. But when I look at having reported to you at early stages, so basically seed stage, it was not like, Hey, I need you to deliver 1 million AR this quarter, you know, that was not the scope or the
[00:21:01] Toni: Maybe, maybe I should
[00:21:02] Toni: have
[00:21:02] Mikkel: Maybe you should have, then we would have succeeded. But you know, so it's very different here. We were more tactical. And it's also what I'm hearing from other folks who join at an earlier stage. It is more prescriptive, some of the discussions you're, you're having, and you need to really understand. When to let go of those things.
[00:21:21] Mikkel: If you, if you agree, whether you agree or disagree with it. Right. So there's this thing called disagree and commit up to a level. I think it's, it's okay to voice disagreement. If you believe, if you truly have some information that he or she might not have that could alter the course by all means surface it.
[00:21:36] Mikkel: But this, if, if there's a returning theme of. I will say the rule I had with you, if you set the same thing twice, then now I need to pay attention, then I definitely will have to do it. Like if it's once, then, you know, we can let it slide. But if it's twice, then it's like, Oh, I remember him saying that now I need to do it and then boom, done delivered.
[00:21:54] Mikkel: Right. And I think,
[00:21:55] Toni: That's, that's, that's how Tony works,
[00:21:57] Toni: I
[00:21:57] Mikkel: yeah, exactly. Simple is easy. The other element of that was also, you need to have a way to structure your work to ensure you deliver those commits. So, so for me, it meant after one on one making sure that I don't have a meeting right after because I, at least me as a person, I won't sit and take notes.
[00:22:18] Mikkel: I will try and pay attention to what the other person is saying and have an actual conversation and sometimes taking notes can kind of disrupt that flow, especially if it's on a laptop that's open. Right. And so right after I would sit and just reflect over what are the most important things we discussed?
[00:22:32] Mikkel: What actions did I commit to that? I need to take and then make sure to lock them on my personal to do. I just used a calendar, a task list. That was the easiest, right? That's one. The other was my weekly bullets. Every friday, here's what i've done. Here's what i'm doing if I miss something usually it will get voiced or if there's any disagreement misalignment, whatever we we can manage it, right?
[00:22:52] Mikkel: Really great way to make sure that you yourself actually delivering on to those commits. I think That's at least just a reflection I had on on execution. You want to be delivering 100 percent of your commits and you want to be predictable. The, the, the CEO needs that.
[00:23:08] Toni: One thing I would also advise is like, don't be afraid to. Propose that maybe it only needs to be half an hour every week, or
[00:23:16] Mikkel: Oh, yeah.
[00:23:16] Mikkel: I'll
[00:23:16] Toni: only one hour every other week or something like this kind of don't, don't be afraid. It's, it's not like, the CEO is going to be all upset. I mean, unless obviously like, Hey, it's the, the, you know, the last couple of weeks of the quarter and you're behind it and it feels like you're dodging a conversation, then that's a different thing.
[00:23:31] Toni: Right. But giving time back, if you don't think it's necessary, it's, it's you know, don't, don't feel, don't, don't be afraid suggesting that.
[00:23:37] Mikkel: I think that's a good one. Not,
[00:23:39] Mikkel: I also think like you want to, and this is also part of building whole trust. You want to try and resolve things before they even hit the leader, right? It shouldn't be the leader coming to you with a problem. So I think the best example I've learned there I've experienced where a manager came to me talking about someone on my team, not performing.
[00:24:02] Mikkel: Terrible scenario, because now I look bad as a manager versus me very quickly seeing the signs going to the CEO saying, Hey, this isn't working out. I'm going to fix it now. And this, and in this case, you being a bit like, okay, wow, where did that come from?
[00:24:18] Mikkel: Right.
[00:24:18] Toni: Yeah, yeah, but I mean, yeah,
[00:24:20] Mikkel: And I think it's just to say like, if you can effectively solve problems before they hit the radar of the CEO that's going to be immensely helpful for basically shaping your career versus if you don't do it, it might, you know, create a lot of pain for you.
[00:24:37] Toni: So, and I mean, there's also a reverse example here, right? It's not only someone on your team, but it could also be just the CEO asking questions into this one person.
[00:24:44] Mikkel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:24:45] Toni: and, and that usually is a, is a, you know, it's not necessarily always this sign, but it can be a sign that the CEO is losing trust in that person you have on the team or this report you're having or something like this.
[00:24:58] Toni: And, and ideally, you know, the CEO shouldn't be the first one noticing it. Let, let's just say it like this. Right. And and then to a degree, this is also part of you doing your job as, as
[00:25:07] Toni: a
[00:25:07] Mikkel: oh,
[00:25:07] Toni: right? It's, it's the same thing as, you know, if it goes the other way around and suddenly five people resigned from your team, it's like, Oh, That, that, that says something pretty poor about you.
[00:25:16] Toni: Right. And being, being able to manage all of these things proactively, ideally, whenever, you know, your boss, and this is a general thing, not just a CEO thing, but whenever your boss needs to intervene in something that you're doing, then it was kind of not correct. You, you know, you should have taken care of that previously.
[00:25:32] Toni: Right.
[00:25:33] Mikkel: no, I agree completely. It's funny how a lot of it is very much. Conversational driven. I feel like if, if you're delivering a set of results, everything just gets easier, by the way, everything, everything just gets easier because the other thing I was going to say is you might get bombarded with work all of a sudden.
[00:25:52] Mikkel: Right. I think it's a whole lot easier for a CEO who's detached from the day to day operational reality to make a lot of decision, which means you now need to run incredibly fast. And I think to a degree, what you don't want to have happen is to become the person who just says no. All the time, all for all good sense and purposes that, that might be necessary, but I think you could also instead just try and reframe it which, which I've done a few times with a CEO who shall remain unnamed.
[00:26:22] Mikkel: And basically said, instead of saying no, it's not now, later. So, you know, you acknowledge that something is important, but there are other pieces. And if, if he or she is kind of like, well, actually this is really important. Then of course you can start showing the list of things and you can prioritize together.
[00:26:41] Mikkel: But I think it just shows strength to, to kind of be able to say, well, we have these battles right now that are more important than this other thing. So we'll get to it later.
[00:26:48] Toni: I think it shows maturity actually. I think that's what it means for me, at least, but yeah, I mean, so I think those are, those are kind of the things when you roll to the CEO, right? I think it's I think it's going to be a net positive for you. If you can survive, I think that's actually kind of what it is.
[00:27:04] Toni: If you can deal with the less cozy setup, if you can deal with the very much you know, result focused culture there. And and, and can survive and thrive. I think then, you know, the, the world is your oyster and you can kind of. Grow with it actually. But I also know from talking to some folks, it's not for everyone.
[00:27:22] Mikkel: No,
[00:27:23] Toni: really not for everyone. And, and that's also, okay. I think that's also totally fine. Right. And I think balancing this out and figuring this out for yourself, I think that's kind of step number one, but, but if you get the opportunity to do it, just, just realize it's going to be slightly different than, than what it's been used to before.
[00:27:39] Mikkel: yeah, I mean, you can't forget that he or she will still be some kind of a manager that you will have a collaboration with, right? And that also means that what person are you dealing with? What personality is it? What, what do they require? I've certainly worked with the CEO who was not a great fit for me, right?
[00:27:53] Mikkel: And I did not know how to navigate his personality and that, that can happen. And, and I think if. If so, if you're considering either taking a job where you would report into the CEO for the first time, you still need to consider who he or she is. Like what kind of vibes are you getting from that person?
[00:28:10] Mikkel: Are you laughing a bit together? Is it some interesting challenges he or she is focused on? How, how is he or she running the team, the shop, the, the everything. Right. I think so some of those pieces. Do become important still to understand irregardless, because otherwise you can follow all the advice we've shared that we've used in practice but you're going to hate it and, and it's not going to work out favorably, at least
[00:28:32] Toni: That's it.
[00:28:34] Mikkel: nice.
[00:28:35] Mikkel: So hopefully there's a bunch of people who will start reporting to their CEOs now.
[00:28:39] Toni: Yeah, or wake up and realize, Oh, geez, I actually don't like this at all.
[00:28:43] Mikkel: Ha ha
[00:28:44] Toni: Now, now I know why. Thank you, Tony and Mikkel for all the horror
[00:28:47] Toni: stories.
[00:28:48] Mikkel: All the CEOs go like, Oh, am I, do they need to dumb it down for me? Is that's what's wrong.
[00:28:55] Toni: no, that's what it is. I mean, if you enjoyed this, please hit subscribe always helps us to kind of build and grow the show. Otherwise Mikkel, thanks a bunch and thanks everyone for listening and watching. Have a great one. Bye bye.
[00:29:05] Mikkel: Bye.