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Analog-ish is a weekly interview podcast for people who are tired of being optimized. Hosted by feminist coach Becky Mollenkamp, who believes slowing down is a radical act, each episode features conversations with thinkers, makers, and everyday radicals who are finding their way back to something slower, more intentional, and more human.
We're not here to tell you to smash your phone or go off the grid. We're here to ask better questions about the role technology plays in your life — and to explore practical low-tech ideas that give you more agency over the answer. From reclaiming rest to building real-life community, from protecting your attention to finding unmonetized joy, these conversations are honest, curious, and refreshingly free of hustle culture.
If you're burned out from being constantly online and hungry for a different way forward, this show is for you.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:05)
The tech bros are trying to take away your humanity, but you're not a machine. Let's talk about what it means to live like a human in this high-tech world. This is Analogish, and I'm your host, Becky Mollenkamp.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:21)
I am so excited today to be joined by Amelia Hruby who runs Off the Grid. There's a podcast. You have a community. You have a also softer sounds doing ⁓ podcast editing and production. So hello, Amelia. Anything I left off of your very brief intro that you want people to know?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:40)
Hi Becky, I'm so happy to be here with you. I also wrote a book called Your Attention is Sacred, except on social media, so I'll just mention that here as well.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (00:48)
Yes, and I have a copy. I should have had it so I could show it for the YouTubers. And I didn't call you doctor, but you are a PhD Dr. Amelia Hruby. And yes, you've actually written two books. That's the most recent.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (00:59)
is true. Yes, my first book was called 50 Feminist Mantras and that was actually an illustrated journal. So it did come out with a traditional publishing company so it is my first book sort of. I also wrote a dissertation which is book length so I don't know. A book is a book is a book. My most recent book is Your Attention is Sacred.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (01:14)
There you go.
And your attention to sacred is exactly why you're here, because that is so much of what I want to talk about with this show, which is all about just trying to navigate that balance of existing in a digital world that is becoming increasingly even more digital, thanks to AI and still keeping our humanity intact, which means some of that is around our attention span, our focus, our
Creativity, all of those things that make us human and how do we reclaim some of that knowing that we can't change the world by ourselves. This is the world we live in and we're going to talk a lot about AI. So I mentioned AI because that is sort of really what prompted me to want to do this show at this time. Like why now I am old enough that I have seen a lot of evolution in tech over time. So why now? it's AI is just to me is this next.
generative AI is this next level of iteration and of change that is like on par with when the internet started. Right. Like it's that big of a shift in and how we engage with technology and engage with the world around us and equal parts may be exciting. Potentially, there are some things that maybe are exciting about it. Whole lot of things that are pretty scary about it. And I'm interested to talk to you. I think you are doing a AI sabbatical.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (02:21)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:42)
a what do you want a detox a what are you calling it?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (02:44)
I've, yeah,
that's a great question. So I've been referring to it as a year of GPT sobriety. I can explain what that means, but that's kind of the language I've come up with thanks to my friend Mel Mitchell Jackson.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (02:58)
Perfect.
So sobriety for a year. far now as we record this, it'll probably be about a month or two before this actually comes out. But how far are you into your sobriety at this point? How many days sober are you tracking it like so you can get your chips?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (03:12)
That's so funny. I am not, but I started January, 2026, like top of the year. it will have been, well, as we're recording this about four months, maybe five, almost six by the time it comes out.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (03:17)
Okay.
Yeah, so you're at least now like a full quarter in. that's some time. before prior to starting, I assume you starting meant you were using AI to some degree up until that point.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (03:35)
Yes, I would say I was a pretty casual, experimental user of AI before. So I like to be really specific when I talk about AI because there are so many ways that it's already integrated into our lives and our work. For me, the reason I say GPT superiority is because I have taken a year off of using generative AI tools and specifically chat bots. These tools that we interact with by asking them questions and they build profiles on us and they give us answers. So things like chat GPT or
Claude from Anthropic, even some of like Google Gemini, all of that. I'm not using any of those tools. I am still like searching the internet and seeing the AI responses. And I am still, I use Notion and they have AI built in. I'm not using it, but it's there. So I feel like I'm very much swimming in the sea. Last year I was using ChatGPT. I would ask it to write an email subject line or I would ask it to tell me about.
popular marketing podcasts I could potentially pitch. I was definitely interacting. And I also even used Claude to make a website for my Tarot podcast where people could sort of press a button and get a random episode of the show like they were pulling a card. And so I was not like an all in user or an intensive user, but I was checking it out and trying it out. And I stopped that in January of this year. So not using any of those tools anymore.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (04:54)
Well, that's good, because I wanted to get sort of that baseline of where were you at the time of making this decision? So it wasn't as if you were already puritanical about it and then just like putting this, you were using it some and you were probably like a lot of us where it's like, this is interesting. And how can I sort of integrate this into my business in ways that assist me? think my guess is people who are drawn to a show like this are probably not folks who are
Amelia Hruby, PhD (05:03)
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (05:21)
I'm gonna see if I can just replace every part of my business with AI and never have to create anything again. I don't think it's those people. I think it's people who are probably like, how can I use this tool in a way that serves me, makes my life a little easier, reduces my workload, especially for people who are maybe solopreneurs and doing everything in their business. And I think there's probably some thoughtfulness to it. So it sounds like maybe similar to how you're showing up is how probably a lot of us are starting to try to integrate.
AI into our business, thoughtfully, but also like this tool exists. And I think the feeling that I and maybe other people have is, and I don't want to get left behind, right? I don't want to, if I say I just am putting my flag stake in the ground and saying, I don't use it. Is everyone else going to now be lapping me? That's sort of a feeling. So let's start there, because when you decided to put your flag on the ground, I can't imagine that that thought didn't cross your mind, that that's not part of the decision making.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (06:01)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (06:20)
How are you dealing with that feeling of, am I gonna be behind if I do this?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (06:27)
Yeah, well, the first thing I want to say is that it's no accident that so many of us are thinking that or feeling that way. It's actually the result of a massive marketing campaign that these AI companies are doing. Like, you're not just coming up with that feeling out of nowhere. There is so many commercials and ads and implementations that OpenAI and Anthropic specifically are spending tons of money to put in front of our face, right?
There are billboards across the country. There are Super Bowl commercials. It's, you know, so much paid advertising online. So I think that I just want to start by highlighting that, like, that feeling is created by the companies who want us to pay for their AI. Like, it is the result of a marketing campaign. So that doesn't mean we're not feeling it. It doesn't mean it doesn't feel real to us. But I really want us all to pause and be like, why do I feel that? And is that really like a result from me?
So often it's marketing, often it's pressure from our jobs or the sort of promise of what we might get from self-employment if we can work hard enough and fast enough and build in real time. One of the things that has really helped me in putting my flag in the ground, and I guess to some people declaring I'm here to be left behind, that's not what I think I'm doing, but I'm sure some people think that, something that helps me a lot is I have practice in this. When I left social media, people told me I would be left behind, right?
Nobody will know. And I told myself this. I had so many fears. was like, is anyone going to, is everyone going to forget me? Will anyone ever invite me to do anything again? Can I ever sell another book again? Could I have a podcast? Could I have a business? I had all these questions. But as of recording this, I'm about to hit my five year anniversary of being off of social media. And I don't feel like I have been left behind in any meaningful way.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:15)
I would, I don't know the insides enough, although you do share some of that, but I would almost venture to guess that you are doing better than you were, right?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (08:22)
yeah, in
like every area of my life. And some of that is because I love social media and some of that is because I... But yes, my business was so like fledgling and confused when I was on social media. And then I left and then I completely redesigned it. And I started doing other things that were even more interesting to me. And yeah, I have way more success off of social media than I ever did on. And that includes success in my podcast studio. So I like to say that, you know...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:28)
I mean, even in your business. Yeah.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (08:48)
It's not that I left social media and then found success as a leading social media influencer. I'm not in that model of, know, coaches coaching coaches. It's not that I'm. Yes. Yes, I do do that. But the first success came from a service based podcast production studio, and I didn't need social media to make that business very successful. So I'm really leaning on that firsthand experience of doing the thing that everyone told me was a bad idea and I couldn't make it work.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (08:56)
MLM version of online business.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (09:15)
and then succeeding on my own terms anyway. And so I think that AI will be the same thing for me. That said, there's also a reason that I've committed to one year of this because AI technology is changing so rapidly that I don't even know if it'll be possible to avoid GPTs in a year, honestly. Like I don't, I can't see the future of what's to come, but it felt like the more I learned about AI, the more I started using it, the more I started.
feeling pulled to use it more because it prompts, the more you use it, the more it prompts you to keep using it. The more I felt that happening, I just, and the more I learned about how destructive AI technology is in the hands of these major corporations running the most popular tools now, I felt like I just needed to hit a big pause button. I did not wanna get sucked into the hype. I did not wanna get convinced by the marketing. I wanted to carve out a space to really...
keep learning and make my and reclaim my agency and make my own decisions. And that's what this year means to me.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:14)
Yeah. Well, and you going back to what you said about the marketing piece of this, it's interesting because if you look at the stock market right now, the U.S. economy is really being propped up at this point by AI. The AI tools, they are what used to be a decade, maybe even 12, 20 years ago now, 15 years ago, what it used to be where Facebook and those those companies were.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (10:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (10:39)
what were the social media boom, the rise in all the tech stocks was about social media. And that's what was everything on the stock market. And the economy was like the quality, quote unquote, of the economy was really dependent on those companies succeeding. So of course there was the pressure from the companies, but also, you know, we know who's benefiting from a lot of these stock dollars. Also Congress folks, and they're just equally invested in trying to make sure those things succeed.
So now here we are again with that happening again and this time with it being AI. So I just think that's really interesting. The parallels are definitely strong there. There is a vested interest systemically at multiple levels for you to be thinking, I need to use AI. And so I love that you could feel that pressure. You had something to compare it to. You could say this feels like that same thing again. And even so, I think for many people, it's still really scary to say, just going to use, I'm not going to use these tools in that way again.
AI is something that's been around even longer than chat GPT. But there's generative AI that we're talking about, is so AI for shorthand. But it's really we're talking about that specific kind of tool.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (11:44)
Yeah, I would say generative
and agentic, right? So it's like generative is the AI that you ask it to make something for you and it does. Whether that be write an email, builds your website, makes a video for you. And there's generative AI in a lot of tools we already use as business owners. Like Canva has generative AI for image creation now inside of it if you're a paid user. So that's generative AI. Agentic AI is the sort of...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (11:53)
that built your website. Yeah.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (12:09)
AI tools that are connecting different services and doing things for you. So if you have an AI tool that is scheduling calls for you, that's agentic AI. know, if it pops into your in...
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:14)
Yeah.
like Claude Coe work,
I think can do some of those, right?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (12:22)
Exactly, yeah, Claude Cowork.
I think there are all of these different, you know, email automated AI tools now that will do things like when somebody says, can we schedule a call? It'll pop in and look at your calendar and schedule for you. So I think the combination of like generative and agentic is how most small business owners I talk to are using AI. But we also then have like the whole other realm of like the therapeutic and relational uses, right? So many people are talking to AI chatbots as friends, as confidants.
they're treating it like therapy, they're treating it, you know, they're using it to sort of assuage their loneliness. And that's a whole other layer of the conversation. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (12:57)
a whole other scary layer when we go
watch a movie like her or I know there's other things out there that sort of start to delve into some of that next level of things. ⁓ But so making that decision, how long did you like what was the lead up to the decision as far as what kind of changes where you need to make? Was there stuff you had to do to do that? What was the immediate after you started? Did you notice any difference in how you were feeling or, you know, what you were?
have like a shift in how you're having to interact with your own business as you don't have these tools available.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (13:32)
Yeah, so when I left social media, I had been all in on social media, so I had to make a lot of changes. Like your question is describing. I had to learn how to do everything differently. I had to start an email list. I had to learn email marketing. I had to do so much. I will be honest that I was not a heavy user of AI. It was very casual because I was always very skeptical. I called myself an AI skeptic long before I quit using the tools altogether.
because I love technology and I was curious and I wanted to see how it worked and what it could do, but I was not using AI to write all my emails. I really was a very occasional user. I did not have any workflows built on AI generative or agentic AI tools. I had never used any of Notion's agents. Like I didn't have to make a big change. And part of why I'm trying to talk about this now and as we're recording this, I've just finished a big AI series of my podcast is because the thing that...
that is so different about AI right now than social media a few years ago is that most people aren't entrenched yet. The more you let yourself use AI for, even thoughtfully, if we get a few years down the road and you realize like, this tool has privacy problems like we realized about social media, it is costing more and more and more and more money to work like happened with social media. It's not working as well as it used to like happened with social media, right?
If any of the things I think will probably come up in a few years start coming up and you're really entrenched, it's hard to make a change. So I refused to get entrenched, I'll be honest. In this case, like I was interested and I tried things out, but I was not in any way using it in a way that I felt reliant on. I, so I was really able to just kind of stop. I just deleted my cloud account. I logged out of my chat GPT account and just haven't used them this year. And.
I see more and more people coming to rely on the tools. And I think that as they do that, it does become a reliance in a way that I think is even more intense and insidious than it was with social media.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (15:35)
think so too, because it has more tentacles in a way of like being integrated into more parts of your business and your life than social media, I think does. Maybe as social media integrates more AI, it won't be true, but it has them now. So let's talk about those things then, the reasons. What is it that's driving this decision for you? What are the fears? What is it that has you being skeptical and to the point of
Amelia Hruby, PhD (15:45)
Mm-hmm.
Hahaha
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (16:00)
sober at the moment with AI? What is it that you're like, I'm not so sure.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (16:01)
You
Yeah. Yeah, I think there are so many layers of it. So I'll try to sort of summarize a few of the big things that have come up in my podcast conversations here. So one layer that was really flagged early and often is the environmental impact of AI. So the amount, extent, and degree of data and data centers required to run these AI models and these large language models that were
fuel the AI chatbots many people are using, they require so much energy. And so we're seeing much more space taken up by data centers. We're seeing more mining happen to provide the chips that run the computers that run the AI models. And also they're having big draws on utilities. And so the communities located close to these data centers are seeing their electricity bills go up significantly and they're seeing their air quality decrease. And I think those are very real concerns.
And unlike many other environmental impact of tech tools, this is happening very close to home for a lot of people. Often we have so far outsourced so much of the actual material resources required for tech to run. For those of us who live in the US and are protected by empire, especially upwardly mobile white folks in the US, we haven't had to see the data centers go in next to our communities. haven't had to.
Notice the air quality shift or our electric bill goes up. And even in the US, it's impacting communities of color first, right? We're seeing it in Memphis. We're seeing it in Atlanta. But it's very real. And it's closer to home than I think it has been before. So that's one of the impacts. The second is it's a labor issue, right? We're seeing so many people already lose jobs or be asked to use AI so much at work that the AI and then train the AI that puts them out of a job. We're hearing more and more reports of that, which is just so.
insidious and problematic.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (17:59)
And the
reports on that are it's happening to women first. Black women.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (18:02)
Yes, especially black women.
it's a huge labor issue. And if you are in any of the creative industries, AI is like further, it's taking work away from people that I know and care about who used to have illustration commissions or used to be content writers. And now their former clients are all telling them just using AI. So that's become a problem. And in doing so, it also shifts the perceived value of the work that all of us do, even if we're not losing clients. If you're doing creative work,
and you're self-employed, the realities of AI are impacting what you are gonna be able to charge over the next few years. think there's so many layers of the labor rights issue. And then I also just think there's a real problem with, you people are starting to call it, I'm gonna get the words wrong, but like, different degrees of cognitive offloading. Like, how are we thinking? What are we becoming dependent on? What skills are we not building? What are we not learning? How much are we trusting?
these AI tools when they give us answers, how much are we, how are they training us not to question them, right? That's happening more and more. And so I think between those three concerns, it became pretty apparent to me that I just, couldn't find an aligned way to use chatbots anymore. couldn't find a real, like, I felt like I always had to like sort of whisper to people like, yeah, I wrote that with chat GPT. You're like, yeah, I'm using that in the backend.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:07)
huh.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (19:25)
And that to me was just a sign that I couldn't work it out yet and I want it again. I just wanted to pause until I felt like I could work it out.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (19:31)
And one you didn't mention, but you mentioned with social media that I think is relevant and probably maybe lesser degree now, but could become a bigger issue, which is sort of around security, privacy, some of those concerns, right? Which I think, you know, especially in the creative industries, we already see, I mean, God, just what it can do for making someone look like they're saying something they're not, being somewhere they're not, like that sort of thing. But then also taking from, you know, for its learning models.
taking copyrighted content and using that. ⁓ And then who knows what it's doing with the data it's pulling from when you're giving it access to your computer, to your information, right? So that's another one that you didn't mention, but I think is probably something that you're concerned about as well.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (20:12)
Yes.
Yes, absolutely. How dare I forget data privacy? I talk about it so much.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (20:19)
Well, there are
so many things to be worried about that apparently that's it. Well, and okay, so now I know how you show up in the world and I know that you're not someone who is going to be like, I'm judging everyone else if they're not showing up the way I'm showing up. So I want to get into that too here because I don't want people listening who are using AI to feel like, ⁓ she thinks she's better than me or, you know, feeling shitty about themselves or whatever.
because we want to honor the reality that we live in. And for some jobs, you just don't get a choice. You're having to these tools. And even for people who maybe do have some relative degree of choice, again, going back to that feeling of a lack of choice, not to say that you don't, like maybe there are places you could be making different choices, but I know that you don't want to judge people. So like, what do you say to people who are still, maybe who are like you, who are skeptical, but are still using AI in some way, but they're trying to think about
restraints around it without maybe necessarily walking away completely. And by the way, I'm in this bucket. So I am that person. Like I am still using Claude for certain tasks. I have put bare boundaries around that. I'm not yet in the like willing to go full sober. Although every time I listen to you or talk to you, I think, maybe I need to. But that's where I'm at right now. So I guess really I'm saying, what do you say to me, Amelia? That's the person who's still using it, but also, you know, shares a lot of your values and is also skeptical.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (21:43)
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, the first thing I'll say is just to reiterate what you've said, which is that I don't want to shame anyone who's using AI, whether you're using it a little or a lot. If you're tuned in here, I'm not trying to shame you for those choices. And I actually don't think it's helpful. I don't think shame is a very helpful emotion. So if you are feeling guilty or ashamed, and I can tell you, when I started talking about AI on my podcast, I got a lot of emails from people who were saying, I'm using it a lot and I feel really guilty. I feel really ashamed. I think that's...
very real, want to affirm that you may be going through that. But I also don't think shame is the place where we want to get stuck here. We want to find aligned ways to move forward. So the things that the two sort of practices that I've offered are creating an AI policy. So I think one thing that's really helpful is to be incredibly intentional and articulate what are you willing to do with AI and what are you not? And the when people sit down and start to think about that.
One, I think it's really helpful, because it forces you to learn more about AI. So you gotta get a little honest with yourself about the realities of these tools. And then it helps you think through different scenarios. How are you already using it? What are the things that make you feel like, ⁓ I don't like that at all? What are the things that if somebody else did to you, like if you found out your, I don't know, mom was replying to all your texts with AI, how would you feel about it? Maybe chill, maybe deeply upset, right? If you hired a copywriter and you found out that they wrote everything they sent back to you with AI, how would you feel about that, right?
So thinking through some of these possibilities, writing an AI policy, I think it's, again, it's helpful because you articulate it, but it's also helpful because then you've just made the decision and you don't have to feel so conflicted anymore because you have a policy and you can refer to that for yourself. You can just know this is in alignment with my policy or it's not, or maybe it's not and I'm gonna do it anyway so I need to change the policy, right? I think making a policy is so helpful.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (23:34)
And before you move on, can I also say, think even if you don't own a business, I think that's an important, just have, it's a value set for you. It's boundaries. What are your boundaries around AI, both in how you use them and also in how you interact with others? Like, are you going to ask your doctor's office, are they using AI tools and in what way? Are you going to say no, if they say they're using certain tools? Because doctors offices are now starting to use AI to take notes, to reduce their workload. And that's about the you or not for some people it doesn't. So I think.
It's a two-way street on both how you'll use it and then also how you are planning to interact with other companies and individuals and how they're using it. And I think that's important for an individual or a business owner. So just wanted to add that, but thank you. And I want to talk a little more about policies in a minute, but go ahead.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (24:13)
Yeah.
Yes, no, think that's all really, really helpful. You know, I'm hearing from therapists who are using AI to, you know, do their session notes and their insurance billing and things. How do you feel about that? Right? These are all good things to ask. The second piece I would just say, like the second recommendation I have is to try to practice harm reduction. I think that the harms of generative and agentic AI are very real. And
I don't want to shame anyone for using it, but I do want you to leave this episode being aware of that. Becky and I have named at least four different areas where we have many concerns about these tools. And so if you are going to continue using it for any reason, because you want to, because you have to, whatever it is, again, I don't have a judgment of that, but how can you reduce the harm that it's causing? So I will say OpenAI and Anthropic and Google, they are the three most popular AI or GPT companies.
And their models are the most environmentally impactful. They are some of the least regulated in terms of all the data they're pulling in. I myself am a part of the class action lawsuit against Anthropic for scraping and stealing my book and using it to train their model. Like I find that most people are just defaulting to one of those tools, chat, GPT, Claude, or Gemini. And those are some of the actually like most problematic ones. There are so many other models that you could use, many of which are free or do not cost very much. So I like to point people
I can include a link in the show notes. There's a great creator who runs a newsletter called Cut Off the Spigot that's put together a whole list of chat GPT alternatives that are much more environmentally friendly, value centered, and they're actually like really considering different things. So that would be one thing. And then the other thing, if I could just say it to everyone, if you're paying for chat GPT or Claude, cancel the account. That is such a great way to practice harm reduction. Don't give these people your money. Give them as little of your private information as you can and be aware.
Just be intentional and aware. And yes, maybe you have to or you want to continue using generative or agentic AI, but you don't have to. Again, you don't have to give in to the marketing. You don't have to use Claude because Anthropic is telling us that they're the human AI platform. We don't have to buy it. You can still use great tools that have really high quality results and can get you what you need without having to interact with some of, I think, the most harmful entities in the space. They just.
They take up most of the conversation, but there are other options and I would love to see people supporting those.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (26:40)
Yeah, that's all great. And I think I just saw today or yesterday and I didn't read the story, but I heard perplexity getting sued as well for something. They're all, you know, this stuff is new. It's it is sort of the Wild West. And yes, we're a few years into the this sort of new generative and agentic versions longer on the idea of AI. But in the scheme of the human timeline and even the scheme of the human technology timeline, this is this is new. It is.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (26:49)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:07)
It is Wild West out there and they're trying a lot of things. as we know with giant corporations and these are, you know, most of the ones we are talking about anyway, are definitely all publicly owned stock market driven only by profits and how soon, how many, how much, that sort of thing. They're going to try. Ethics and values are not the top of their concerns. Right. So we have to remember that. So they're going to try.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (27:29)
No, they're I mean,
they're using the move fast break things playbook, right? And you know, we've just had these sort of lawsuits against meta particularly where the courts are finally finding that they have manipulated or harmed their users. But how many years did that take? Right? You know, 20 years for that to happen. And
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (27:47)
The ones that were
harming are now like have kids of their own.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (27:50)
Yes,
exactly. And so I don't think we can wait for the courts or regulation to come through. They aren't going to protect us, especially under this current administration that is so giving so much power to the companies that own AI. I think we're far more likely to see an AI bailout from the government than we are to see them regulate these tools at this point. so I just like.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:13)
100 % 100 %
Amelia Hruby, PhD (28:16)
Unfortunately, we do have to do it ourselves. We need structural solutions, I agree, but like, we can start with our own behavior and choices.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:23)
Yeah, we are the ones we're waiting for to save us because frankly, this administration, yes, but the truth being, think almost anyone who could get elected in this country is also benefiting very much more than likely from the rise of the stock market price for these companies. So on the AI policy piece. So what really prompted me with that was as I was writing my book, because I have ADHD and my I have executive functioning issues that have kept me for two decades. I wanted to write a book from writing a book.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (28:36)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (28:54)
And what finally made me feel like I could do this project was that I had a tool that I could say, okay, I have a decade plus of content. Help me make sense of all of this. How do I put this together in something that I can put together in a book that makes sense? Because my brain was just like, the overwhelm was so real. was, I just, and maybe I'm telling myself a story, Amelia, which is very well could be true. That there may have been a way I could, I mean, certainly,
Could I, yes, but did I know because it felt so overwhelming. Those tools helped me be able to make sense of all of this content that I had to be able to think about how I could form that into a book that would make sense, that would be useful, helpful. I wrote my book, but I used AI tools to help me with getting it to a place where I could even begin to see the forest for the trees. And I'm grateful for that as somebody who is neurodivergent for that help to be able to do that. And...
I also felt to be aligned with my values that I needed to disclose that, that I needed to say and tell people my relationship with these tools and the role that they played in the creation of my book and be really transparent about that. So I wrote a statement for the book that's in the book about my use of AI for the book, which again, that whole like secret whispering, it did feel a little like I am laying myself bare for people to see that I walk, I talk a talk and I don't always walk it completely.
Because I also live in the real world and it's really hard, right? And one of the things I did to try and help offset that was buying carbon offsets. That's not the solution by any stretch. It is a piece of trying to help, right? Or trying to do that harm reduction. It's not the only way. It's not the best way, but it's something I could do. So that's what got me thinking about it. Then I saw you in your community talking about AI policies. And I was like, huh, I wrote a statement for my book.
But I don't have any policy on my website or to talk about what I do with it. So I now have an AI policy on my website because of what you shared, which is great. And I think really helpful. I don't know if there's a question there other than just, I think a lot of us are just figuring this out in real time, right? And I just want people to know that because I think what you're doing is amazing with this year. And I can't wait in six months or a year to hear where you land, because as you said,
Amelia Hruby, PhD (31:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:12)
You may end up saying, can't, this just isn't sustainable or maybe it will be. But I think we're all trying to figure out in real time in the best ways that we can. And I love the invitation to think about how can you do more.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (31:24)
Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm so happy to hear that you've written an AI policy for your website after listening to the episodes. I do think that transparency is perhaps, you know, of my like three things to do. ⁓ Right. Policy is an act of transparency, right? You know, write a policy harm reduction and transparency can be separate things. But I think that, you know, I really I read that in your book and I really applauded it because I
It is an act of bravery. This is an incredibly polarizing topic. There will be people who will read that and then write off the book. Like, no, no thanks. Don't want to do this. And I think they have every right to do that. Sure. I also, you know, it's been interesting. You are not the first person who has told me that, like, they've used AI to sort of shape their ideas into a book or to write a book proposal because there has been this barrier between, like, them and the publishing industry because they haven't been able to sort of m-
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (31:56)
It is.
Absolutely.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (32:22)
communicate their thoughts in the linear, very specific way that the publishing industry wants to. And do I perhaps wish that instead of needing AI to make us palatable to that world, we could make publishing change and do it our own ways? Yeah, I do wish that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:40)
And believe me,
I wish I could have afforded to hire someone, a developmental editor, to help me with that. That wasn't in my budget.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (32:45)
And I'm sure there are developmental
editors listening in who are like, yeah, uninterested in reading the book now. It's very real. think that this is really helpful to hear or to talk about because where you start it, the fear of getting left behind, right? Everybody's thinking about what it'll cost me if I don't use AI. And I'm trying to get people to think about what does it cost if you do use AI? And some of that is the environmental, the planet is paying the cost of this.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (32:49)
Yep.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (33:15)
But again, it's a labor issue, right? So like the developmental editor who was a part of your audience and is now like, I'm piecing out because this is like, not that you were gonna hire them, but again, we're all figuring this out in real time and it's sticky and it's hard. And I think what I've tried to stay centered in is just like, what I can do is decide how I want to act and the behavior that I'm okay with in my community and the people I interact with. I just don't think it's helpful to be out here judging other people or not.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (33:44)
Well, and like so much of social media where it's so polarized with a lot of things politically, but this being another one of these things where AI has started to feel that same way of you're either it feels very black and white like so much does in this binary world we live in of either you can't use it and you got to hate everyone who does and you you're not ethical and horrible if you do and then or like you you just use it and you just sort of are like, well.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (33:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (34:11)
I'm using it so now I'm the bad guy so I might as well just be all in, right? And I think, I hope that what people hear from this and what you're sharing and I know how you show up is, can we explore that middle space? Like I love that you're saying for me, it does look like sobriety. And I know that may not be how it looks for everyone and it's not trying to say, I shame you and your hor- because that doesn't, like you said, doesn't create change. It just doesn't. What does the middle look like for a lot of us?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (34:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting. Like, so as I mentioned at the very top, like, I got this language of AI sobriety from my friend Mel Mitchell Jackson, who's been on the podcast. And I have never used sobriety as languaging because I'm not sober from any of the typical things. Like, I drink alcohol. Like, I've never been in a 12-step program. Like, sobriety has never been a frame for me before.
But I think with AI, I did. I felt the draw. I felt the temptation. And I wanted this language of sobriety to be like, no, I am not doing this right now. And that doesn't mean that's what everyone has to do or needs to do. I think that I'm with you in the embrace of the both and, the embrace of the gray area. But as I always do with social media, I just want to empower people. You have agency. And your choices do matter. So.
I don't want you to slip into the sort of like moral injury of, there's nothing I can do and I need it for my job and I have to, I have to, I have to. You don't. not to the full extent. Where can you resist? Where can you rub up against the friction? How can you keep reclaiming your agency from these tools that are very much trying to take it from us in so many ways? even if you're gonna use it.
That's okay, I gave some options, right? There are tools that are less harmful than the most popular ones. There are policies you can write to say, like, I'll use it to write my emails, but I'll never use it to text my mom, right? Whatever. Again, you get to make those choices. I'm not trying to tell anyone what the choices are, but the thing that scares me the most is the people who aren't making any choices, who are just using it and who are sometimes glossing over their discomfort with their use of it by throwing up their hands. Like, we don't have to throw up our hands.
And we don't have to get fully sober either, but there's so much middle ground to actually maneuver in. So my plea to all of us is just to reclaim the agency, make intentional choices, whatever those may be. I want you to stand behind it so that I can stand with you in that.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (36:35)
Yeah, I mean, think that's it. And I just think like so many things it is can we take off our autopilot of just, well, here's this thing. So I guess I use this and then the getting swept away by things versus intentionality. And I think with everything that's it's it is mindfulness, it's awareness, it's intentionality, it's understanding it. And we need to, again, read the literature, understand.
the tools and that very real harm you're talking about because putting your head in the sand is not helpful. Not knowing doesn't help anyone. If you know and you still are like, I need to use this tool for this reason, okay. And what does that look like then? Boundaries, guardrails, ⁓ harm reduction, communicating that because I think we're all trying to meet, not all of us, but those of us who are trying to meet more intentional choices. We also appreciate knowing. And that's why I, again,
I put it in the book and you're right. I know it's gonna make some people mad and that's hard because I could just as easily not have said anything. No one knows, right, that I used it in the way that I used it. ⁓ But also I want people to be able to make those informed choices about how they interact with my work and with me. I would love, I want, you know, maybe I aspire to sobriety. I'm not there yet.
That doesn't mean though that like you said in a year, you don't know where you'll be with your sobriety. I don't know in six months or a year if I won't be where you are now. Right. And that may be my aim. I'm not there now, but I am being thoughtful. I am really trying to think about which tools I'm using, where I'm using them and noticing where I'm feeling because I think this what you're talking about that happens. I notice the itch, the pull. I'm like, I could just go to this. And it's like, OK, do I need to hear?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (37:57)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (38:17)
Could I just do this myself? Could I still use my brain? Because the last thing we didn't I mean, you sort of talked about the cognitive issues, but just creativity. I worry for our creative selves and what that's doing for us. So are you noticing in the sobriety period now, like not that you are a heavy user before in any way, but do you feel like it's challenging you to be more creative?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (38:40)
Yeah, I don't even know if it's a challenge. It just feels like an invitation. It feels like I'm just being creative. you know, as a kind of final anecdote, noticed, so last, I'm finishing a group program right now that I'm teaching. And I was writing some email templates for people because part of the goal of the program is to do cross promotion. So we're doing a lot of co-marketing. And I had this experience last week where I was like, if I was still using ChatGPT, I would have asked it to write this email template.
It's a template, everybody's meant to adapt it. Like I had all these reasons why it was okay to use ChatGPT, but I'm not using it. So I had to write it myself. And you know what? It took me 10 minutes. It took me so little time. It did not take long at all because I'm a practiced email writer. But if I started going to ChatGPT every time, then one day it would take me an hour to write that email. I wouldn't be able to do it in five to 10 minutes the way that I did last week because my skills will erode. And I'm not interested in that, like as a writer, as a creative.
And you know, I think email writing is creative. So I use that as an example of my creativity, but there are so many realms where I think that this comes up and it's it's invisible to us, right? We don't realize we're losing skills until the day when we have to do it without the chat bot or until the day where the chat bot's too expensive to do everything on it anymore, which is actually the outcome I think is quite, quite likely for many of us.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (39:59)
100 % because that's starting to show up in certain places and that's where people are migrating to different tools. And then if they can't be, then before long, it's going to be filled with advertising. So there we go. Cause they got to make their money right now. They're in that place where social media was at the start, where there's no expectation to make money. It's just to get users and to prove that people want the tool at some point, the pressure comes, you guys start making real money. How are you going to do that? And we saw how it happened with social media. They're trying this model of.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (40:11)
Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (40:28)
subscriptions, that's only going to get them so far. The prices either have to go up or they have to find other ways to monetize our attention going back to your book.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (40:36)
Yeah,
it's going to be like a streaming service, I think, right? Like you're to have to pay and there are going to be ads or you're going to pay a lot more for there to be no ads. And that's where I'm just like, if you are going to use the tools, pick one that you respect and pay for it so that actually it can continue to exist. And again, I'll send you the link to that great list of chat GPT Gemini alternatives that I think is really helpful because for folks using AI, like go to those.
you can feel good about using it. And then you can actually tell everybody about the tools you love instead of like whispering that you're using ChatGPT.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:05)
Yes.
Yeah. As you said, don't pay,
pay, but pay the right people. Don't be paying Sam Altman, pay these folks that are building alternatives. Thank you, Amelia. We were going to talk about maybe some other stuff, but this was, I think this is a perfectly complete and wonderful conversation about this stuff. And again, it's this invitation. Speaking of invitations, this is not ⁓ a judgment space. This is truly an invitation for you to begin to question your own relationship with AI and to see it as a relationship.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (41:13)
Yes. Exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (41:33)
and start to explore what do you want your relationship to look like? Everyone's relationships look different. Everyone comes to different boundaries and agreements in their relationship, but we need to actually be conscious about those, right? So make a conscious decision so it doesn't become an abusive relationship. And it will, because otherwise AI will absolutely be abusing you. And obviously it's already abusing the planet. So thank you for your time, Amelia. Anything else or where can people find you if they want to learn more?
Amelia Hruby, PhD (41:59)
Yeah, so you can find me at AmeliaHruby.com and you can find my podcast, Off the Grid, Leaving Social Media, anywhere you get your podcasts. I did a whole series on AI, so I'll give Becky the link. I have a webpage with just those episodes and some extra resources, so we'll make sure that link is in the show notes as well. Correct, it was built by me in Squarespace, which really wants me to use AI, but I am resisting so far.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:16)
a webpage not built by AI.
as long as you can, right? Perfect. Well, I'll include all of that. Definitely go give it a listen. And that way also you can follow along because I have a feeling you'll be updating us throughout the year and certainly at the end of this year where you go next and how it's all worked out. So follow along. Thank you, Amelia.
Amelia Hruby, PhD (42:38)
Thanks, Becky.
Becky Mollenkamp (she/they) (42:43)
Thanks for listening to Analogish. This episode is over, but the world is still out there. Go find it.