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Summary
John Volcker, Contributing Editor to Car & Driver (and one of the co-hosts of Tempting Fate Tours), discusses his background in EV journalism and the auto industry's transition to electric vehicles. He shares his insights on the perception of EVs and the factors that have contributed to their acceptance. Along with discussing some of the current trends in the industry.
Takeaways
- The EV transition is unstoppable, but still face hurdles in the short term and it will take time to reach widespread adoption.
- John recaps his recent experience with Lucid Motors' new SUV shows lots of promise and John is excited to see it on the roads after a recent ride in a prototype.
- The introduction of the Ionna charging network, a collaboration of several automakers (check out John's own article about it).
- Hydrogen fueling stations have struggled due to infrastructure limitations... and only seems to be worsening.
- Seamless and convenient charging experiences are essential for EV adoption.
- Concerns exist about Tesla controlling the charging infrastructure, along with the associated data, and automakers are frustrated with the performance of Electrify America's charging network (John's great multi-piece article on the state of charging tackles this in part 1).
- Education is crucial for EV buyers and especially salespeople at dealerships.
Also if you are looking to either buy a Tesla or even test drive one, feel free to use our referral code.
Creators & Guests
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Good morning, Grid Connections listeners.
Today I have the pleasure of sharing my
recent interview with John Volcker, a
contributing editor to Car and Driver,
among many other auto outlets.
He's been at the forefront of hybrid and
electric vehicle automotive journalism for
over a decade, and he gets to share his
keen insights of the electric vehicle
industry's disruption of combustion
vehicles with us today.
In this episode, we didn't even get
halfway through all the topics I wanted to
cover with them.
But we had, I think the big ones and
recent developments, especially in the
electric vehicle space, even as recently
as this past week.
So exploring some of the nuances and the
challenges that shape the narrative in
this rapidly evolving sector, it's really
great to get his take on someone who's in
the industry and is a contributing writer
and has a lot of influence and more
importantly, knowledge to actually
contribute to what he says and be able to
back it up.
So John brings us not only his
perspective, but also his exclusive
insights from his recent test drive of the
Lucid Gravity prototype, a vehicle that's
sparking interest and excitement across
the automotive world, especially among SUV
buyers.
But that's not all.
We're also charging into the discussion of
the state of electric vehicle charging
infrastructure here in the US.
With EV adoption accelerating, the demand
for more and more advanced charging
solutions is at an all -time high.
John will share his expert perspective on
where the U S stands and building a robust
charging network, the challenges that lie
ahead and what this means for electric
vehicle owners and potential buyers.
So buckle up and tune in as we discuss
today's landscape of electric vehicles
from groundbreaking prototypes to the
infrastructure that powers them with one
of the industry's most insightful voices,
John Volcker.
This is the Grid connections podcast where
the future of mobility is always in the
spotlight.
And with that enjoy.
thank you so much.
if there are any listeners that are
unfamiliar, can you just share a little
bit of your
Sure.
My so-called career has lots of lumps and
bumps in it.
But after working as a product manager for
a large internet company in 2005, I
realized that if I was ever going to make
money off what was my passion, which was
the auto industry, then this would be the
time.
The house was paid off and that.
So.
I started freelancing in the auto
journalism world, which is not how you pay
the rent.
And I needed something that would set me
apart from everybody else who can actually
racetrack, drive, and has been doing this
for forever.
And there was really, in the mid-2000s,
there was no good journalism about either
hybrid cars or the nascent electric car
industry.
I have a friend in Detroit who I remind
every few years that he said to me,
when I told him that was going to be my
specialty, John, you're insane.
The only people who care about those cars
are smelly hippies and they don't buy new
cars.
I remind him of that every couple of
years.
But really I thought the electrified
vehicle industry, to use a problematic
word, was interesting because it was the
first major change in powertrains since
the diesel engine arrived.
And, you know, there were stuff on the top
end of engines, but basically internal
combustion cars were a known quantity with
increasing refinements to meet increasing
regulation.
The whole idea of adding a battery and one
or more electric motors was new,
interesting, completely unfamiliar.
And there were some articles out there
that I thought I might have been able to
add some information and take a different
tack.
And it actually sort of worked.
So.
Almost 20 years later, here I am.
I have pretty deep background in the EV
industry.
The story I tell is that I got my first
ride in a Tesla Roadster in September
2006.
I think it was Roadster number three.
It's a long story.
And because it only had 14% of battery
left, they wouldn't let me drive it.
I don't know if it was even a licensed
production car.
It had some kind of plate, but.
They said, we can only do one speed run
because we have to run you back from Palo
Alto to our garage in Redwood City.
I actually have some pictures of the first
Tesla shop in Redwood City.
And one acceleration run from a stoplight
up El Camino sort of convinced me that
this was an interesting thing and electric
cars were not just glorified golf carts
for hippies and everybody else.
So here we are.
Yeah, that's I think that's really
interesting because that is kind of a
common experience.
I think a lot of people now in the
industry or what have gotten people
interested into electric vehicles.
But let's say and there's a couple other
things I want to talk about relate to
that.
But I'm kind of curious.
Was that the experience kind of told you
like, oh, I need to write about this.
It sounds like that was actually after you
had already decided, right?
I'd say they came about the same time.
I was knocking around trying to figure out
what I wanted to do with my life.
I was freelancing as a managing editor for
magazines and websites.
I toggle back and forth.
And I was always a car nerd.
I mean, you know, a lot of little boys get
sports, I got cars.
And so it was really that sort of pivot in
my life where...
I've done a bunch of stuff, some of it was
fun, some of it wasn't.
What would I like to do?
And I was lucky enough and privileged
enough to be able to make that transition.
And I picked something that turned out to
be a good thing for the future.
But yeah, the first Tesla ride was sort
of, okay, there are hybrids out there.
And frankly, every VC in Silicon Valley
where I was living at the time is buying
Priuses.
What's that about?
Because, you know, they have BMWs and
Mercedes-Benz's and Audi's and sometimes
fancier stuff.
Why are they all bringing home Priuses?
And the answer was, this is the most
technically advanced car in the world
right now.
And so, okay, Priuses, that's interesting.
No one's writing about them in an
interesting way.
This Tesla thing I just wrote in and
together it just sort of jolted.
What would you say?
Uh, no, that, that's really interesting.
That makes a lot of sense.
Cause that, uh, my exposure to it was a
little bit different as we were talking
about this, where I was actually in high
school, kind of building and racing, but,
uh, maybe only a year and a half, I was
actually down in the Bay area.
And I was also really fortunate enough to
get a ride in one.
And, uh, it actually was even crazier than
that.
Not only was it, I just wanted to go
check.
I was there for a work thing.
I just wanted to go check out one of the
dealerships.
I just like see.
these things in the flesh.
And then the guy.
Oh, well, I mean, this was, uh, cause the
one you said was in Redwood city.
I want to say this one was in Menlo.
Yeah.
The Menlo park location.
actually.
It was on the east side of El Camino.
And it had that, it was the weird kind of
like a tagging all a little shaped, uh, I
guess retail location with a service thing
attached to it.
And so I was just kind of looking around
and maybe because I was just in a suit for
a meeting I had been in, uh, the guy there
was just like, do you want to test drive
it?
And I was like, well, I would love to, but
I don't think this is the right thing.
He's like, oh, here's the keys.
Go, go for a drive.
And I, at the time I think was 20 and I
just couldn't, I don't know.
I mean, I think anywhere else in the
world.
They probably would have been like, get
the hell out of here.
But I think just once again, the Bay area
and to some extent, Tesla has always been
kind of good about test drives like that.
But I think they just like, Oh, it's
probably just some other tech millionaire
who just sold something that like, yeah,
he can probably afford it.
Whereas like I was trying to figure out
how to pay student loans and all these my
rent for that month, but it was hard to
turn down that opportunity and.
Kind of the same experience.
It kind of closed any.
questions or any doubt in my mind that
electric vehicles have a strong future.
I just wasn't sure at that time if it was
going to be Tesla or some other company
and clearly they felt they'd followed
through and everyone else is now trying to
catch up with it.
But following up on that, what was kind of
the point that you realized I'm sure for a
long time.
And I mean, I've even read this and seen
this where people are kind of doubting you
or not believing that this is the future.
What were
ever an article you read or a moment in
the industry that kind of was the point
where you felt like things had flipped and
people were like no longer doubting that
like, Oh, it's going to be the EV stuff.
And you kind of knew you had made the
right choice to be the person focused on
EVs or do you, to be, do you think the
industry is still going through this?
Yeah.
Now, let's be clear.
In 2024, the EV transition is unstoppable.
Okay?
There will be lumps and bumps.
Sometimes the curve won't go like this.
It may go like this.
Maybe it'll go like this for a while.
The US and North America are not leading
the charge.
We are, in fact, global laggards, both
because we use vehicles differently.
and because we're not good at industrial
policy.
China is by far the leader.
They want to use electric vehicles to
essentially crush the rest of the world's
auto industry.
And Europe is well ahead of North America
at this point.
So it's going to happen.
It will be a transition.
that lasts well beyond my lifetime.
Depending on whose numbers you use,
there's between 1.3 and 1.6 billion
vehicles on the planet.
The average car in the US on US roads is
now almost 13 years old.
That's a transition that takes a
generation, if not two or three.
But electric cars are now viable and
practical in a way that they simply
weren't 10 years ago.
10 years to the day after
the first Leaf was sold in the US.
So basically December, 2020, I guess.
I did an article that said, look where
we've come in 10 years.
That Leaf had 74 miles of range, ideally.
It had 50 kilowatt fast charging, which
then was remarkable.
And it was a somewhat peculiar looking
C-segment hatchback, compact hatchback.
not a form factor Americans tend to buy.
And at that point in December, 2010, Tesla
only had the roadster.
They'd gone through a recall because they
essentially blew up the two-speed
transmissions that they had fitted.
The Model S was a promise that everybody
sort of sneered at.
And now in December, 2020, you had pickup
trucks coming, you had a variety of SUV
formats and...
200 miles was the minimum acceptable range
on the vast majority of EVs in the market
and 300 was coming Think what we'll be in
December 2030, right?
batteries improve at 8% a year improving
cost performance and We saw some of that
from 2010 to 2020.
We will see the same thing in 2020 to 2030
Assisted by
at least one new battery chemistry.
It's not new, but we will have lithium
iron phosphate batteries coming into the
US market, which they largely haven't so
far, because they're cheaper, albeit less
energy dense.
But everything's improving.
So lithium iron phosphate batteries will,
in fact, be practical for that 200-plus
mile electric car.
So I'm not worried about the transition
stopping.
To get back to the question you asked me
five minutes
There wasn't one single eureka moment.
There wasn't that point where I was
sitting, staring at a screen and the light
bulb went off.
I think it was really the combination of a
few things.
The data on lifetime CO2 footprint per
mile of electric cars became conclusive
that they had lower lifetime CO2 and it
continued to improve as the grid
decarbonized.
because an electric car has lower and
lower CO2 if it's charged on cleaner and
cleaner power.
And the Union of Concerned Scientists has
a great US map that I've written about for
10 years, which started out being, well,
you may not wanna drive an EV in these
areas of the States, drive a Prius
instead.
Now, you know, at worst, you're almost
equal to a Prius, and at best, it's 100
miles a gallon equivalent.
So.
It was the CO2 data.
It was GM's board deciding that Tesla was
actually a threat.
That happened 10 years ago.
And overall, it was the continuing
consumer enthusiasm, and at least among
early adopters, the fact that people
really liked their cars and did not want
to go back.
Some people still have.
I think at the moment we're at this funny
sort of trough between the early adopters
and early mass adoption.
We can get to that a little bit later.
But as of probably about three or four
years ago, I no longer have any worries
that electric cars are going to fall off a
cliff and we won't transition.
We will.
But it won't be done until long after I
depart.
Well, hopefully that will be quite a ways
away, but I see what Well, I think it's
funny Ever already there's a couple of
things just kind of thinking back you talk
about like Silicon Valley and being there
with the first Prius's and it just kind of
even reminds me of one of the big things
especially count of the early 2010s was
people were getting Prius's and then they
were going to shops to essentially convert
them to
plug-in hybrids and you're starting to, I
mean, obviously it costs a lot of money,
but it was, it was exactly that thing
where people were seeing this as being the
future.
And it was so fascinating to me that
clearly it was definitely an early adopter
part of the market, but the fact that
there were people buying brand new Priuses
and then taking to a shop to spend like
another five to 10 grand to make them
plug-in hybrids so they could have kind of
the best of both worlds for the commutes,
depending on the situation.
Uh, w it was one of those kinds of things
also to me that also like still like
obviously there is a market demand and
need for this and it was surprising.
Yeah.
And, and obviously the ideal situation was
to get to the fully electric thing.
But back then fast charging wasn't even an
idea.
It was like, maybe you could use these.
There's a chat, a Mo thing that kind of
works here and there.
Um, but it was, it was almost the concept
that plugin vehicles would be for around
town and you just have like a hybrid for
longer.
I've drives and it's so wild to think
about.
I can't remember how much that has changed
and using.
Well, that is true.
Yeah.
the plug-in Prius movement was a tiny,
tiny percentage of people who bought
Priuses.
Your earliest adopters were in Silicon
Valley and California because gasoline is
really expensive in California, always has
been.
But then the rest of the world decided,
okay, yeah, it looks kind of strange, but
you know what?
I get 45 to 50 miles a gallon, no matter
what I do to the damn thing, that's better
than the 22 miles a gallon that a similar
shaped car that is in a hybrid gets.
I'm gonna do that.
And like electric cars, your friends, your
coworkers, your neighbors, your relations,
all as one of them got, you'd ask
questions, you'd realize it was sort of
normal, it was a real car.
Same process happens for electric cars,
but the change for electric cars is
bigger.
Remember that there's a lot of people that
still think hybrids have to plug in.
As for the plug-in hybrid thing, several
members of your audience are gonna smile
because I am on record as being not a
skeptic, plug-in hybrids work really
beautifully if people plug them in.
And thus far, although we had data.
from the last decade from GM and Ford
about their plug-in hybrids and how many
miles were accomplished on grid power, we
do not have that data this decade.
And the makers of the two biggest selling
plug-in hybrids in the US, this is 18
months old now, which are Jeep with its
4xe Wrangler and Toyota with its RAV4
Prime and Prius Prime, will not say
exactly what percentage of miles are
covered on grid power.
even though they have that data, Jeep did
finally tell the Detroit Reporter at least
half of its 4xE owners plug in at least
once a month.
This is not a ringing endorsement of the
large amounts of subsidies we have given
to plug-in hybrids, and I remain to be
convinced until I see proper data that
people are actually plugging in their
plug-in hybrids.
End of lecture and several people in your
audience have seen that already.
Well, no, there's, we got it.
There's so many things I want to cover,
but it's funny you bring that up because
one, we had John McElroy of auto line on
previously and kind of go into exactly.
And you said this on his show too, but
exactly what you're saying about the whole
hybrid phenomenon, the whole concept would
be so much better market.
And you get so many more people to buy
hybrids.
Have you just said, this isn't a hybrid.
This is just a car that gets you 15 miles
a gallon, and this is a car that gets you
20 miles a gallon.
Like there's.
Partially there's now even the
politicization and the stigma of hybrid,
but exactly what you're talking about.
More people are just interested in, how do
I spend less at the pump versus even
horsepower?
Some of the other things that I think more
car focused people kind of think is what's
going to be the big thing that sets cars
apart.
And
Prius taught the industry a lot, at least
one really bad lesson, which was, if you
have a technically advanced car, it has to
look weird, or in the words of Detroit, a
science project.
Now, there were very good reasons they
designed the Prius that way, aerodynamics,
and aerodynamics, but one of the reasons
the first Nissan Leaf came out the way it
did was taking that lesson.
that it has to be distinctive looking in
order to tell people.
You'll note the Prius sales have fallen
off a cliff.
There are 20 or 30,000 a year, I think.
That's because you can now get a Toyota
Corolla Hybrid relatively the same
packaging within a few miles a gallon and
no one knows your...
I think that's a great point.
And then even go into the plug-in hybrid
stuff, there's really good data coming out
of Europe where they were showing that
especially for company, uh, they, they
were offering, maybe, maybe this was just
in the UK, but they were essentially
offering incentives for companies to give
out hybrids as a work vehicle and so many
people would just not only get a plug-in
hybrid, but they'd also get a gas card.
So there was never really an incentive for
them to actually plug it in on a regular
basis.
They're not paying for it either way.
They just use the gas card and have to
worry about charging.
Um, but I will say there is something
ironically vexing when you do see a plug
in hybrid charging, even if I don't need
to charge at like a free level two
charging thing that it is rare, but it
also just seems like why, why are you
doing it?
I, I don't know.
That's I know.
this is going to veer dangerously close
into religious belief.
Next topic.
Exactly, exactly, totally.
With that, you know, one of the things
that I think is really interesting about
your background is you actually have an
engineering degree.
And I feel like so many people in the
automotive space, especially when it comes
to electric vehicles really struggle with
seeing what the value or even the
advantage to an electric vehicle is.
And I think if you approach it or kind of
have an understanding of
as you kind of go into the conversation,
it really gives you a strong foundation of
the value and then you can actually
essentially educate others pretty quickly
as to what the value and the advantage of
going to an electric vehicle is, whether
that be financial, whether that be
performance, yada, yada.
What I'm kind of curious about is someone
who is in a journalist in the space and
has a lot of influence.
Do you think more auto journalists should
have really have almost be required?
to have like an engineering degree or some
sort of kind of background like that,
because I have been consistently
disappointed by auto journalists in their
ability to effectively cover electric
vehicles.
And I'd be kind of curious as someone
who's really working in that space and has
a lot of exposure to that on your own, uh,
for your thoughts on that.
I'm not sure I can speak for the whole
panoply of auto journalists.
There is an entire category of video
journalists.
And honestly, I don't have enough time to
watch someone talk about a specific car
for 12 minutes or 60 minutes, with a
couple of exceptions, Kyle.
But I would say more of the auto
journalists I know have an engineering or
technical background.
than journalists at large.
Certainly not the majority, I don't think,
but especially a car and driver where I've
been lucky enough to go to some of their
10 best testing and basically hang out and
BS with the staff in between drive loops.
There's a fairly high degree of mechanical
awareness.
The issue is mechanical because there are
a lot of MEs.
A lot of them came out of SAE Formula
Racing series or have built their own
cars.
The quirky ones do Lemons Racing.
But you know, it's an electric vehicle is
a fundamentally different thing and it's
still got suspension and electric windows
and seats and infotainment and all that
stuff.
But all of the powertrain stuff is totally
different.
It's a battery electric vehicle.
That is a different skill set.
And I think the field of auto journalism
has gotten much, much better in about the
last four or five years.
I could be found to grumble, I grumble a
lot, pretty much through the 2010s, but
things have really stepped up and I'm now
seeing some pretty sophisticated analysis
from the more general automotive press.
So it's getting better.
It's a process.
Nationally, electric cars are still only
8% of sales last year, of which about 2%
plug-in hybrids, 6% battery electrics.
So there are more cars that are
turbocharged sold every year than there
are electric cars last year.
So it's a process.
It's an evolution.
There's also the issue that, first and
foremost, as a journalist,
You gotta be able to tell stories.
And, you know, I've had the odd young
journalists come to me and say, what do I
need to do?
Right, you know, how do I write a good
story?
And unfortunately, the flip line is it
gets a lot easier after the first 5,000.
I wrote 4,600 stories in nine years
running green car reports and I edited it
in one year, 7,500.
So, you know, after a while, it's kind of
like riding a bicycle, I like to think.
But it's getting better.
Auto journalists should have technical
awareness.
And those who race drive, which is a
minority, but those who are actually good
on track, generally have a much greater
understanding of how cars actually work.
Yeah.
And I guess I didn't mean it to sound so
pessimistic and I would also agree with
you.
It has definitely come a long ways and
been more positive.
I just kind of feel like, um, some of it
is definitely, uh, education and the
efficiency and conveying the message and
value of electric vehicles.
But I also do find that there is, I don't
want to say it's generational either, but
there isn't really interesting, I guess,
value.
Disconnect or understanding the value for
the consumer I mean, I hate to use it as
the example But I think a big one would be
Tesla where it's like so much of it is
through the app and I think a lot Of like
traditional car people that can make some
cringe and they think of it as an
appliance and I can kind of get that but
for the average person who thinks of their
car as an appliance or as a Convenience or
as a just a mode of transportation and not
really something they see for passion you
can kind of look at this with
Not even Tesla, I think any of the EV
starves, but especially the Chinese
automakers.
This is where I think there is a big
disconnect between a lot of the
traditional automotive outlets.
And, and I think to some extent it could
be generational buyer values.
I would say kind of my, I know some people
older, so it's obviously very anecdotal,
but like age group wise and younger, there
is a lot about like kind of that Tesla app
experience.
That.
draws people to EVs and car brands once
they even know that that's an option.
And I think if this makes sense, and I
think there's a lot in that value that
these car brands are presenting to buyers
that I've just noticed that traditional
automatic journalists are either mystified
by or don't think it's really a big
selling point.
And I think if it got more press, it might
also understand why like,
consumer preferences and some of the
changes and why Tesla and some of these
other EV companies have been selling EV so
well in the fact that it has become what
is considered I think to some as almost
gimmicky is now almost considered a luxury
feature that is presented with a lot of
electric vehicles and I know I can speak
of that to when it like when I had to get
the tires changed on my car because I the
Les Schwab was backed up for months I was
able to just do it through the app for our
Tesla
And there was a guy there two days later
who did in the driveway and maybe you're
short of a McLaren.
I don't know any other services that'll
could just come right to you.
And I think when people, I know other
people just kind of like my age group when
they hear that, like, Oh, I want to get
that.
And I realized that's kind of a another
level and there's price mediums too, but
it is just interesting to me.
And maybe this isn't so much as a question
as just a comment about it is fascinating
to me that value.
as a lot of auto journalists are, their
role is to show like why to buy a car over
another, the whole spectrum of EV
ownership that I don't know if it's
getting the right coverage or the right
message to consumers to make a fully
informed choice, if that makes sense.
There's like 12 billion things to unpack
there.
And so maybe this has just become its own
podcast.
So I don't want to go down too much of a
rabbit hole there.
I guess a few basics.
The data show that most people view their
cars as a mix of appliance.
And it's the fascinating thing about
covering cars.
There's this highly functional aspect.
I have a second kid, so it has to have
three rows.
And it has to have at least umpteenth cup
holders.
And what do you mean there's only two USB
ports in the rear seat?
Stuff, really functional stuff.
And
the not all that well understood
psychographic stuff about what a car
signifies to the outside society about
you.
And some people don't care about that, but
some people care a lot.
There was this wonderful article, and I'm
going back 20 years, comparing minivans to
SUVs.
Because 20 years ago, the buyer pools
demographically were almost identical.
Slightly above average household income,
they both had 2.4 kids.
They lived in certain types of suburbs
predominantly, but psychographically, as
the Brits would say, chalk and cheese.
Because the minivan owners are like, this
vehicle is amazing.
It has incredible room inside.
I can carry anything.
I can carry the kids and grandma.
It's got all these great features.
The sliding doors are really great.
And the other side is like, oh my God.
What would people think of me if they saw
me in a minivan?
Patooy!
And those are very different
psychographics, right?
Most people are somewhere in this mix of,
it's gotta have A, B, and C, but it also
has to say something about me.
And you saw that double-edged sword most
acutely with the Prius, where it became a
joke.
One of my relations still calls them the
Toyota Pius.
And that was a South Park joke from 20
years ago, I think.
So.
The idea that a vehicle is an appliance is
important when you move from the early
adopters to the mass market.
And to quote the invaluable Chelsea
Sexton, who is now working for the
government, so we haven't heard a lot from
her lately, first and foremost, you've got
to be able to sell an electric car as a
better car.
Never mind the environment, never mind the
apps.
Never mind any of that stuff.
It has to be sold as a better car.
And they are better cars.
They're quieter.
They have punchier acceleration from a
stop.
And even your aunt going to church kind of
likes winning the stoplight Grand Prix now
and then.
And, you know, they have a lot of things.
Plus for that minority of Americans who
have dedicated off-street parking, you can
charge it at home overnight.
It's...
you never have to go to a gas station,
which it turns out about half the world
kind of likes.
And it's much cheaper per mile.
Those are all good things.
They're just nicer to travel in.
The challenge is going to be charging for
people in multiple unit dwellings, which
is going to be a much bigger issue two
years from now.
Once a huge slew of used EVs with
practical ranges, Tesla Model 3s, start
hitting the market.
We'll put that one aside.
But...
First and foremost, auto journalists, with
the exception of Consumer Reports, which
has its own slant, and a couple of other
outlets are not looking at it from the
straight consumer point of view, they're
looking at it from the point of view of
auto enthusiasts.
And so automatically, that audience of
auto journalists, especially if they're
associated full-time with a specific
outlet, is going to bring some
perception about who they're writing for
as compared to the public at large.
Because I've been freelancing for so long,
I do both kinds.
I do, you know, geeky stuff on battery
chemistries, and I also do really basic
explainers.
Car and driver, bless their hearts, was
shocked how well their explainers did.
How does a hybrid work?
You know, a hybrid is not an electric car
that you plug in, you know.
and stuff like that because there is, and
one of the things that I take away from
that is that the interest in articles like
that, a lot of those articles are created
from search queries now.
What do people go onto Car and Driver and
look for?
But the fact that they get such traffic
indicates to me that a much broader pool
of people are now at least educating
themselves.
Yeah.
And this, this will be the last question,
kind of in tangential to all this, but is,
uh, I, I totally get what you're saying
about the focus on automotive enthusiasts.
And that's really cool and interesting to
see it and make sense that there's a
larger interest coming, the more general
thing.
And is that just kind of because the old
kind of business thing that's like 20% of
a customer base is going to be 80% of your
business that you think for a lot of
these,
traditional automotive outlets that they
just kind of focus on the enthusiast
because that's going to be the main
subscriber.
That's going to be where they get the most
of their revenue.
Usually.
It depends.
Any media outlet these days is a mix of
regular readers and what I call drive-bys,
which are the people who search for
something on Google and get an article
popped up.
If, parenthetically, and I'll leave this
to one sentence, if in fact Google goes
full tilt into AI and starts answering all
your questions for yourself on the first
screen, many, many media
sure.
Yeah.
So your ma or your uncle Fred who has
driven pickup trucks all his life or pick
your stereotype, probably doesn't
subscribe to Car and Driver.
And Car and Driver knows what its audience
is.
It's a mix of what will people regularly
read for the ones that get the daily email
or the daily push or the alerts on their
phone versus
What's the stuff that our search data says
people really want to know from us?
Right.
I know I appreciate that and I appreciate
the insights in that.
So we'll, we'll get to some other topics.
I know that you're interested in talking a
little bit more about.
So I know you recently had the chance to
test drive the Lucid Gravity prototype.
What can you share about that?
And I know from what I've seen, just kind
of like on Twitter and a couple other
things, you seem to be a really big fan of
just the Lucid cars in general.
If you could just share kind of your
thoughts on the brand, the cars and what
this recent prototype experience was like.
Sure.
I was lucky to be offered that chance.
It came with a number of caveats, no
freeway time, because the car doesn't have
airbags and their lawyers got very antsy.
And it didn't have air suspension, so
really my comments on the suspension were
limited to a small box, and I had about an
hour with it.
But that said, I had actually seen the
demonstrator version, the fully built
version of the Gravity and was quite
impressed in December.
I'm fond of Lucid because they have very
smart engineers and they have really
packaged their drivetrain, an extremely
powerful drivetrain, in a very small
space.
And they're actually, they have a side gig
selling that powertrain to other makers.
Aston Martin has announced it's going to
use...
Lucid powertrains.
So I think that speaks to the essential
quality of their designs.
For those people who may not know, the CEO
of Lucid was the lead engineer on the
Tesla Model S.
The company no longer says it.
In fact, they don't mention the T word at
all, ever.
But at one point in their evolution, one
of their employees told me about the Lucid
we want to make the Tesla Model S done
right.
So there you have it.
I like their vehicles.
Part of it is design.
Derek Jenkins, their lead designer at one
point said, "'We wanted to make a car that
wasn't shouty.'" Shouty is a British term
meaning essentially brash, obvious, loud,
you know, noticeable.
And I think they've pulled that off.
rarely the person to talk to about
interiors, but I love some of their
fabrics, surprisingly.
And overall, I just, I will never turn
down a chance to drive a Lucid because it
is such a nice driving experience.
The power of their powertrain is
demonstrated.
I haven't driven a Lucid Air Sapphire, but
let's set the base here.
This is about a two and a half ton, more
or less.
four-seat Luxury sedan That will
accelerate you from 0 to 60 miles an hour
in less than 2 seconds I'm not sure I
actually want to experience that at my
age, but my colleague Dan at car and
driver wrote One of the more glowing
reviews I have seen in the outlet of the
car because it's really everything that
car people would like
And it's totally tractable for everyday
use as well.
It's kind of like you can have performance
that leaves Ferraris in the dust, but you
can also have this very nice luxurious
sedan that you can drive around and do
your regular life.
So Lucid's problem is that because they
had a funding hiatus and everything just
sort of froze and they re-engineered
quietly on the side, they didn't launch
with an SUV, unlike Rivian who launched
with a pickup truck
more or less at the same time.
They launched with a luxury sedan, which
in 2012 was fine for the Tesla Model S,
but by the time 2020 rolled around, luxury
sedans were a declining category.
So I think the SUV is gonna be the one
that really takes them to the next level,
but they are also talking about their
mid-sized project, which is going to be a
smaller SUV.
You can really think of it as their Tesla
Model Y competitor.
They showed one draped shape.
Right?
no real information, but I'm looking
forward to that one because that's a car
that arguably I might be able to afford
and I really like their engineering.
Yeah, I have always been really impressed
with their engineering.
Personally, the styling of it, I have not
been as big of a fan of, but I know plenty
of people that like them and I'm kind of
the more of the merrier.
And I, like I said, I think the
engineering aspect, especially with a
focus on efficiency is something that, uh,
Tesla's started with and did really well
and it's great to see Lucid kind of take
it even further.
And I think it's something that more
automakers, especially from kind of the
traditional brands really need to put a
focus on.
Um, just to really kind of get the best
value and the best distance and range out
of, and the most of a battery pack.
So I, I really do think, uh, like you
said, the team there is doing some really
oppressive things and I myself haven't
been able to drive the Sapphire either,
but everyone I've talked to just does seem
to, they won't stop talking about it and
exactly.
And as much as the, and it's not like it's
a bad design, it's just not a design that
Kind of, I guess I get what you're saying.
Like I would say the original model S was
kind of like an understated, but nice
design.
The Porsche Tycon might be a little bit
more of that kind of brash and stand out.
I like that design.
The Lucid for me.
Yeah.
I love the Taycan.
I mean, I would take it, you know, in the
world where I had money, I would take it
in there over a Taycan just because the
Taycan is really cramped.
But on the Taycan test drive, it took all
of 90 seconds to realize that the car had
more acceleration and more road holding
than I had courage, which is fine.
And.
and the numbers coming out of this recent
refreshed icon are just absurd from the
charging standpoint.
Um, and as someone who has road tripped, I
mean, our daily is a model wide and it's,
it's a, it's kind of like what I've come
to say is like, that's like the baseline.
If it can't charge as fast or do these
things, I can't think about for the next
car, cause I've driven from Bend, Oregon
to Phoenix, Arizona in a day, which is
just a shy bit under 1200 miles.
And it's a long day.
Um, but a big part is having a really good
charging curve, good speeds and stuff like
that.
And it could be better, but yeah, it's
just one of those things that, uh, I know
we had kind of agreed to talk about
getting into the chart, uh, to charging
space, but what else?
Okay.
And so, um, yeah, I think in my dream
situation, it would be the new Porsche
Taycan and Fortanbao cars with unlimited
money.
And then be able to charge on the
supercharger network.
And that would be like the ultimate road
tripping vehicle, but there was a big
announcement this week.
And I'm still not a hundred percent sure
how to pronounce it.
Is it Iona?
Do you know John?
No idea.
I call it IANA, but you know.
I think that has been the consensus for
most people trying to describe it, but it
is the, I guess, next step in the seven
different automakers that last year said
that they were going to come out with this
charging network.
And they are Mercedes, Stellantis, Ford,
Kia, Hyundai, and I'm dropping a couple
others.
BMW.
and yeah, I'm missing one too, but Well,
and this is where I'm afraid I put in a
plug.
I did a four-part series last fall for
charged EVs magazine so It's called
charging is changing.
There's four parts to it to make it
readable, but
I encourage anyone, I'll say a few high
points, but if you really wanna dig in, I
was surprised at the favorable reception
on what is effectively a sort of a nerdy
aspect to the EV thing.
But I think broadly for charging, I have
been quite disappointed in North America
in the entire auto industry outside Tesla,
which...
fell back on its 100 year history of
outsourcing fueling to John D.
Rockefeller and just sort of assumed that
a nationwide charging infrastructure of
some sort would magically appear.
It's actually from the hydrogen field, but
one of my favorite quotes is a Toyota exec
who said, well, you know, it would be so
much easier to sell the Mirai, a hydrogen
fuel cell vehicle only available in
California.
if a hydrogen fueling cell infrastructure
manifested itself.
Yeah, well, you know, fueling and charging
infrastructure don't manifest themselves.
You gotta spend a lot of money.
Tesla knew that.
They did a superb job of it within the
constraint of only having to charge four
vehicles.
And if you design all the charging station
hardware and all four vehicles and the
software on both ends,
That is a manageable thing.
I want to say that while I understand why
Farley at Ford did the deal with Tesla to
give Ford's access to the Supercharger
network, followed two or three weeks later
by GM and I think various others, whether
and how that works is very much yet to be
determined.
I have seen some things from commentators
who want to know better who have said the
charging wars are over The whole problem
has been solved Tesla has won Every other
driver will see how Tesla how great
Tesla's are That is entirely possible.
We are far from that time.
And here's why Tesla is able to Understand
and constantly adjust both ends of the
charging equation because
it knows what's going on inside its
battery packs.
When a non-Tesla pulls up to a
supercharger, that carmaker is not
particularly going to want to lay bare all
of its battery protection algorithms and
the rest of the software that controls its
EV, let alone give Tesla access to its
customers, their addresses,
their VINs and all of the rest.
So there are some really hard negotiations
going on right about now with Tesla and
all of its different partners about, well,
no, we need to know A, B and C.
No, actually, we're not going to give you
that.
How it all remains yet to be determined.
I will be surprised if the majority of
non-Teslas charge as fast at
superchargers.
as Teslas do under the same circumstances.
I hope I am pleasantly surprised.
It could happen.
Well, once again, you've brought up about
12 different things that I want to talk
about, or can I remind you first, just
real quickly, you probably saw it when you
talk about hydrogen and then earlier this
week, the, I think it was Shell who had
like only seven hydrogen stations, but
made up like a third of the actual
hydrogen fueling stations in California.
Yep.
They said, ah, we're not going to do this
anymore.
Right.
my model for that was in the Pacific
Northwest, I think it was actually
Seattle.
You may remember that for about 15 years,
Honda sold a natural gas civic because
natural gas is arguably one of the few
fuels that you can swap into a combustion
car.
No one was ever able to figure out a way
where people with natural gas service at
home
could fuel at home as electric car owners
do, because the compressor required to get
to, is it 300 PSI, I think?
I forget.
I may have that totally wrong.
Is a large industrial compressor that you
don't want running in your garage.
So as a result, all the natural gas civic
owners had to drive to a place and fuel
up.
And indeed, the Seattle area had, I think,
four.
And three of them ended up just shutting
down.
People with natural gas civics had
essentially doorstops because they
couldn't fuel them.
So the hydrogen thing, just not that
surprising, which is why I think you could
buy a Mirai.
I hope not very many people did except as
a Curio because Toyota will take them all
back and crush them.
Yep.
I think that's about all we have to say on
that.
I mean, there was just a lot even around
the infrastructure.
I know a lot of natural gas companies been
taught that I'm trying to go to hydrogen,
but even then, uh, just the physics of a
hydrogen atom compared to the natural gas,
there's so much you have to do to
retrofit, even make it work.
I just don't see that scaling too much.
Um,
be clear, the problem with hydrogen cars
is not the car.
I have every confidence that over time,
the good engineers of Toyota and Honda can
make a hydrogen fuel cell, tanks, power
electronics, small battery and all the
rest of it that will package into where
you used to have an internal combustion
engine with certain adjustments.
That's not the problem.
The problem is...
the fueling infrastructure and the good
citizens of California have spent over
$100 million for what was supposed to be
100 hydrogen stations by December 2020.
than that.
I think there was another comment now over
the last decade.
But yeah, I think that's, let's, yeah,
yeah.
Yeah, but I think it's also really
interesting what you talk about,
especially around data and the different
cars because the OEMs have kind of learned
this the hard way through the infotainment
space.
with Apple CarPlay, with Android Auto,
with just the amount of data that had to
kind of go out to these systems about
their cars currently, that I think you're
probably right.
There is a high likelihood that there
probably will be definitely a pullback.
But I mean, I wouldn't say I'm more
bullish on it, but I do think that there
is, it'll be interesting to see what.
Tesla requires, but now that it is like
the J 3,400 standard, it has become a
little bit more clear as to what
information the car will be giving.
And, um, there's obviously the opportunity
that the car could give the wrong
information, but when you look at just the
existing public charging networks and the
cars being able to tell those what they
need, depending on the thing that I think
is usually the bigger issue and my big
thing about electric vehicles for them to
take off.
has always been, you look at this at any
disruption, for something to take off, it
doesn't have to be just as good, it has to
be better.
And one of the big things like with a
Tesla, you just plug in and walk away and
it just does it.
I have tried that with other cars and
other charging networks.
And I think only one time that the plugin
thing actually work, I think that will
change.
And I know that that's something that
allegedly Ford's trying to do with this
Tesla deal.
But yeah, I agree with you.
There's still a lot that has to be figured
out and like actually even clarified
because there's been a lot of rumors as to
whether it's actually doing that or not or
what is the facts of what will be the
options.
What are you trying to say or look out
right now, John?
Oh, so two points.
The first one is you mentioned SAE 3400,
which is the Tesla standard.
Nax, they called it well before it was a
standard, but it is a standard now, so I
will call it Nax.
My understanding is that by and large, SAE
3400 version one, which is what we have
now, was essentially the phone book.
that Tesla dropped on the table, plus
explanations they had to give the
committee to fill in parts that weren't
adequately specified.
I think the interesting thing with the
North American Charging Standard is going
to come when the next round of changes is
requested by all the car makers around the
table and how Tesla will react.
This leads to the issue that
car makers are not psyched about the idea
that one of their main and most successful
EV competitors is actually controlling the
fueling for their customers.
They very much dislike that idea.
And that is really where IANA came from.
But it also reflects the idea that if you
get past early adopters who are in fact
comfortable
with driving into a prison lit Walmart
parking lot in the rain at midnight and
screwing with the app till they get the
one charging cable that works.
Or, you know,
who doesn't want to drive their $250,000
Lucid Air or Ticon into a, yeah, right
there with you.
Yep.
to have a better experience.
For several years I've said look EV
charging has to be at least as pleasant as
your average gas station, which has
canopies by the way.
The canopies are not there to protect
customers, that's a nice side effect.
They're there to hide all the fire
suppression stuff, but they protect the
customers.
So IONIQ came from that, but it also came
from this idea that Tesla can't control
the entire North American charging
network, that would be a very bad thing.
And finally, I wanna say, when I started
to research that four-part series,
charging is changing, what came up over
and over again was the fury and the rage
among automakers and Electrify America in
particular.
Supposedly the reason that Farley at Ford
did the deal
with Tesla was because he had called the
then CEO of Electrify America and
essentially said, you are more than half
of the reason that all of our Mach-E
customers are failing to charge, fix this
thing now.
And essentially, it didn't get fixed to
the degree that Ford felt.
So Ford was primed for, this is not good
enough.
In some ways, I think Ford is
more attuned to the actual driving and
customer experience, although GM has
gotten very silent lately.
I have my first interview with a GM person
in a while this week.
But, you know, IANA is going to
theoretically make a nicer experience.
I think it's funny that Electrify America
rolled out its sort of flagship charging
station entirely indoors, which is
interesting, but not something you can do.
This week, when IANA...
announced.
I'm sure it was just a coincidence.
Coincidences happen.
But the last point I want to make is you
talked about plug-in charge, which is the
non Tesla way of plugging in and walking
away.
I have now experienced plug-in charge
because I checked for it on the Ford
Mach-E, the Ford F-150 Lightning, the
Porsche Taycan, the Mercedes-Benz EQS, the
Lucid Air
and I may be forgetting one other, maybe
another car from one of those brands, I
can't remember, but it does exist when
both sides of the party wanted to
electrify America had to bring it up on
its stations.
I gather EVgo is going to do some of that
as well, but no question at all that plug
it in and walk away is the only viable way
to do it, along with routing you between
charging stations and that is starting to
happen as well.
To very varying degrees among different
car makers.
Worth noting here that Hyundai pushed an
over the air update to various of its
electric cars that added that function to
its in-dash nav.
So they are getting it, albeit not on a
schedule that I think a lot of us would.
right.
Um, no, and I, I think it's, I guess one
of the things I always try to do is like
approach a lot of these conversations and
technologies from the point of the
consumer.
And it's really easy.
It's not fun, but it's easy to just go to
a gas station.
You swipe your card, you put it in, it
works.
And the current status of EV chargers is
not that, um, especially the public fast
chargers and even
When you've been having to use like a
Tesla magic dock then you have to get the
app and that's and I just don't think That
experience is good.
I know that's going to change with some of
these some of these new Pedestals and
charging pistols that they're bringing out
but I am Hopeful that plug-in charge does
become a more universal thing because
you're right.
It is it is a two Sided you have to have
the car talking and then you have to have
the actual charging thing talking with
each other
And that has been.
often a third party validation for
whatever payment mechanism exists, whether
that's at the carmaker or a bank or what
have you.
So yeah.
that's that, that is kind of the thing
then that takes plug in charge.
The next level is then it has to confirm
the account, uh, and all the account
information, but I really do think that is
something that needs to be figured out and
become that will be one of those things
that everyone I've talked to that is not a
car or EV person, but it's kind of like
curious in getting an EV.
It's those kinds of things.
They're like, Oh, okay.
I don't have to think about it.
It just, I do it like once I put in my
credit card info and it just works.
I get that.
I can do that.
Um, and I'm kind of cautiously hopeful
that will be more of the case because I do
think one other thing, um, we haven't
heard much about this, but I, I know one
of the things that Tesla has really put a
focus on that has kind of made their
charging system, uh, effective is one,
they have the scale of it, but two, it's
throughput is a.
big thing for them and something that they
measure and that's where I do see that I
kind of get what you're saying about
they're not being the same speeds but for
them In my exposure and talking to people
I work there like their interest is they
There's some interest obviously in what
car it's charging, but they just want to
get that car through so they can get
another one in charging
Oh, absolutely.
And one of the things that frustrates me
about all the non-Tesla makers that are
selling EVs, which is pretty much
everybody except maybe not, is their
absolute and utter inability, despite all
sorts of PR blather, to educate the buyers
of these vehicles.
And a lot of that is down to
our valued partners, the independently
owned and operated third party franchise
dealership networks, because, you know,
car dealers, the less good ones have sales
staff turnover approaching 50% of you.
And so, you know, I hear an immense amount
from the car makers about, oh, but we have
training or we give the guy an iPad.
As like, so my favorite dealer in North
America.
is Bourgeois Chevrolet in a relatively
remote part of Quebec.
Love those guys.
I was actually, I think I was on a roadmap
panel with one of them at one point.
This is going back a little bit.
But they, at one point, sold something
like half of all the EVs in Canada, and a
majority of the EVs in Quebec, which is
really the California of Canada in terms
of EVs.
And the way they did it was by giving a
Chevy Volt to every new salesperson and
dealership employee and saying, go home,
take it home for two weeks.
You know, this is how you plug it in.
This is the charging cord.
Here's how it works.
Not even level two, just the regular
charger.
And for two weeks, people got it.
They suddenly realized, oh, it's a regular
car, but I never have to go to a gas
station.
I can plug it in, that's really
inexpensive because electricity in Quebec
is cheap and it's a provincially owned
electric utility.
So people are sort of, it's our utility.
And gasoline is really expensive
relatively, kind of like California except
the utility part.
And so people just got it and they became
the best and most effective salespeople
for electric cars in a place, you know,
a...
less dense part of Quebec that is not
necessarily your ideal EV use case given
the weather.
So most automakers can't do that.
They don't have the interest.
They don't have the dedication, despite
what they will tell me.
And as a result, the dealerships remain
the weak point on education.
Your point to Tesla throughput.
Tesla owners have educated each other,
right?
You get there, you see it's 80% and you
tell the guy, hey,
it's going to take a really long time for
you to get the next 5%.
This is where you leave.
If Tesla had, the car hasn't already told
that person.
I think that's a big part of it.
And that's from what I understand what I
am hearing, which I completely agree with
you is there's a huge asterisk around
that.
Allegedly, I saw one of these quotes and
it was Farley on, I think CNBC or some of
it, but the idea is they plan to as part
of this deal include a lot of the actual
information software in their software
like Tesla does when you roll up to a
charging thing, whether that happens or
not, or to what level, but that would be
huge.
And that does do a lot of this for you.
But what were you gonna say?
Yeah.
I was just going to say, I'm a big fan of
the Chevy Bolt EV.
If they had an all-wheel drive version,
which it was clearly designed for, I would
probably be driving one today.
You need all-wheel drive to get up my
drive in the winter.
But it's fast charging, which maxes out
about 54 kilowatts, is its main drawback.
How many EV people of the sort that you
and I know and talk to have gotten to a
charging station?
and had the bolt owner angrily tell them,
of course it charges faster on a 350
kilowatt than a 150 kilowatt, or insisted
on remaining there until they went from
92% to 100%.
You know, people don't know this stuff.
We know this, probably most of the people
listening to this know this, but the
education part has been historically and
continues to be the big deficiency.
in non-Tesla owners and frankly in some
Tesla owners too.
The guy who bought his Tesla and blithely
fast charged it 100% of the time was not
real happy with the result after 40,000
miles of range.
I am not surprised by that and I think
that makes a lot of sense and I completely
agree.
There's by no means is that system perfect
either and it is really interesting.
I think there's been a lot of promotions
recently that have kind of set some people
up for failure and set unrealistic
expectations.
I think the most recent thing would be
what we kind of just saw in Chicago with
so many of the chargers being kind of
overwhelmed and a lot of it was rideshare
drivers who were
trying this electric car out for free.
And unfortunately it creates a really bad
experience for them.
It makes it worse for existing EV drivers
and then it becomes a huge media and kind
of PR nightmare there.
Uh, but you're totally right around the
dealership because I actually even did a
podcast about this, uh, about a month ago.
My mom is looking to buy, uh, she always
buys like a new car, like every 10 years
or so.
And she's finally replacing her Mercedes
and she wants to get a new car, but she
wants it to be electric.
And we,
Test drove a lot of different vehicles.
We went from everything from a, I mean,
she's even a man, like she wants to spend
a decent amount of money, like 75, 80.
And so we've test drove, and it's the most
she's ever spent on a car, but she plans
to have it for at least 10 years.
And so we test drove everything from a
Rivian to Mercedes to all these different
electrics.
And we kind of came back to the Mercedes
electric, but it's funny because exactly
what you're saying.
The weird part was we worked at this, we
went to this Mercedes dealership and the
guy that helped her was Brian.
So he was great and knew all these things
about the EQE.
My mom was all about it.
She came back another time and then she
asked for Brian.
Well, it turns out there's five different
Brian's at this one Mercedes dealership
and in just the sales team alone.
And when I heard that, I was like, I
would, even if my name was Brian, I'd come
up with like a nickname.
I'm just like, I'm Nigel.
I don't know anything.
Just call me something.
So.
People know who I am.
And then fortunately the third time she
goes in, I go in with her and we
coincidentally at first sprint that meets
us is as she says the right Brian.
And, um, yeah, he was actually pretty
knowledgeable, but then hearing how bad
the experience was with this other Brian
almost turned my mom off from getting the
Mercedes electric altogether, just because
knowledge base and everything else was
clearly more interested in like trying to
sell her an AMG something.
And it's just, unfortunately, I'm a huge
hurdle.
My, the cringiest anecdote I've seen in
the last year was, well, but the sales guy
said that I could go from 10 to 80% in 28
minutes, and I could always charge at
home.
Both of those things are true
independently.
They are not related, because if you had a
fast charger in your garage, you dim your
neighborhood lights.
That said, I am now telling people, when
you walk into a non-Tesla dealer,
ask for the EV specialist.
If they don't have an EV specialist and
they say anyone can answer your questions,
find another dealer.
And if they say, well, she's not here
today, tell them, okay, have her call me
and we'll schedule an appointment and
walk.
No, I think that's great.
That is good feedback.
I mean, here's what's crazy to me too, is
this Mercedes dealership among other
places my mom was shopping is in the
Portland, Oregon area.
Like as far as being as easy, educated as
a market as one would expect, or it should
be, it's still kind of a sad state of
reality.
Um, but I actually really like that
recommendation.
Well, to close out and loop back to Matt
Teske, which was where we started
chatting, perhaps they didn't have the
chargeway beacon because, you know, Matt
has lots of stories about auto
salespeople, but the ability to answer
those questions with a smartly designed
device that says, here's all the charging
stations for your specific vehicle, here's
how far you can go.
And by the way, if you live in this
neighborhood,
your utility has this special offer,
that's stuff that all salespeople ought to
be able to do for EVs and a tiny minority
of them can.
So, have me back in a month and we'll see
if it's changed.
Yeah.
And I mean, I also kind of get it from the
perspective of the salesperson.
They have so much pressure to move cars
and do all this stuff.
And at the end, like unless you make there
more of an incentive for them to sell an
electric vehicle, it's going to be really
hard for them to have to go through all
those.
Yeah.
stiff the EVs more to reflect the greater
amount of time.
Yeah.
then also makes them more expensive to
make and sell.
Well, it's unclear if anyone's making
money on EVs beyond Tesla, but.
point fair point John.
I really have enjoyed this conversation.
There was a lot more I wanted to cover but
I realized we're kind of hit the time that
were allotted So we'll have to have you
back We we didn't get to talk about your
kind of work and fascination with British
cars because that's something I also share
I Was gonna say let's at least throw it
out there I want to talk about it more at
another point But let's at least throw it
out there.
Maybe it'll be the teaser for the next
time you're on but tell us real quickly
about
So Tempting Fate Tours, youtube.com slash
Tempting Fate is.
I'll make sure to put a link in the bio
for the podcast.
So if anyone's watching this, just go
there and we'll have that along with some
of these articles you referenced.
It's basically my friend Tom and I, and it
started when we got bad cabin fever.
So we decided to, he's in New Hampshire,
I'm in New York.
We decided to fly to Portland by two
Sterlings, a badly built British luxury
car from the 80s, and drive them to
Radwood, Austin.
Hilarity ensued.
We have several episodes, I think eight or
something like that.
Among them being driving through the
desert in Arizona and discovering the
event we were going to had been
rescheduled eight weeks later.
But, so we have just put up the first
video for the next adventure, which
happened last September, when we took a 69
MGB and a 58 Riley, which I've owned since
1980, on a Lemons Rally, which is 1,100
miles in three days driving through...
a lot of not very much in Maine.
So check it out.
We'll have five episodes, one a week.
And thank you for letting me plug this,
which in some ways is more amusing to me
than E.E.V.'s, but lots to talk about for
both next So thank you for all.
that sounds great.
And I think that is, uh, I mean,
inherently as someone who works at car and
driver, you do have to have a soft spot
for kind of classic cars and a combustion
vehicle.
So the EV is a great daily and there's
some great sports models, but to have that
kind of fun car on the weekend, especially
when you can have the time for it to break
down and have all of those things that
give it character.
Is what uh, having an EV as your reliable
daily vehicles so powerful.
But.
With that, I just want to say thank you so
much for being on today, and we look
forward to talking to you soon.
that brings us to the end of another high
voltage episode of the Grid Connections
podcast.
A huge thank you to our esteemed guest,
John Volcker, the contributing editor of
Car and Driver and just one of the many
well -earned titles.
I want to just say thanks to him again for
joining us today and sharing his
invaluable insights on the electric
vehicle landscape.
From the thrilling test drive of the Lucid
Gravity prototype to the critical
discussions on the state of EV charging
infrastructure in the U .S.
It's been a journey packed with knowledge,
foresight, and excitement for what the
future holds.
We hope today's episode charged up your
enthusiasm for electric vehicles and
provided a clearer view of the road ahead
for EV technology and infrastructure.
As the EV revolution accelerates, it's
conversations like these that illuminate
the path forward, sparking ideas and
discussion that drive the industry
forward.
Remember to subscribe to the Grid
Connections podcast on your favorite
podcast platform to stay plugged into the
latest developments in the world of
electric vehicles.
We also love hearing from our listeners,
so drop us a review or reach out on social
media with your thoughts, questions, or
topics you'd like us to explore in future
episodes, along with any recommendations
for potential future guests.
With that, thank you for tuning in and
charging forward with us.
Until next week, this is the Grid
Connections podcast signing