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An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Hey, thanks for joining us for the Core Podcast. We get to talk about something fun with Pastor Brian Ball, Pastor Tyler Perry, and then we got in the room, Sarah Forrest and Ramsey, some of our worship leaders and helping out with our gatherings on our NextGen space and always behind the camera. You guys don't even know, but I just love this man, Cyrus.
Brian Ball:Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:Cyrus, our production director. Right.
Tyler Perrott:He loves this moment. Does love this So
Luke Bilberry:I just want you to know, we're grateful you joined us in this conversation because we get to talk about something that a lot of people may have questions about. But as I'm actually reading this and thinking about this, there's the scripture speaks so clearly about Holy Spirit, who he is, what he is doing, and how we as believers get to engage with him in the life he's called us and created us to be. And so I know there can be confusion and can be questions. But I'm reminded as we work on our theology, if we just go back to the Scriptures, my friends, we have so much information and we have so much that we can glean from them in order to live and to not worry or be caught off guard. We have what we need.
Luke Bilberry:God is taking care of us as we dive into our theology. And so as we step into this conversation, maybe a story and a segue as we begin to think through who the Holy Spirit is, what he does, how the scripture reveals some guys is, when I got to know pastor Joel in 2016, before I came, and joined the team here at Chapel Pointe, he caught me off guard because the number of times I would hear him, say something or say a prayer, and he would just say Holy Spirit. He wouldn't use the Holy Spirit. And I remember in that moment thinking, I've never heard someone really say it that way. It almost sounded funny, because the churches that I grew up in, they would always say, the Holy Spirit, or they would, God, would you send your Holy Spirit?
Luke Bilberry:Or there's some like some kind of conversation that was a caveat, a word before it. But Joby would say, Holy Spirit, we invite you here, and he would pray prayers to Holy Spirit. And as he's just talking, was this he had a personal encounter with a person. And so as we think about a Trinitarian theology, we think about the Father and who he is, he is a person. As we think about the Son and who he is as Jesus.
Luke Bilberry:I think sometimes we can often move Holy Spirit into just simply this force because this idea, this feeling, we miss this grand truth. Holy Spirit is a person. And we get to know him by name, holy, set apart other than spirit.
Brian Ball:Right?
Luke Bilberry:And so we can kind of dive into some of that. I'd love maybe let's start kind of with you, Tyler, when you think about Holy Spirit and your encounters with him and leading and serving in churches, Where do you think some of the places that we maybe make some mistakes in understanding who Holy Spirit is or maybe even some places that we get it right?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah, I would say let's just think about like some areas that are just, I think, natural misconceptions. I think it even goes to a little bit of you're talking about, that disjointedness that you felt is this moment with the Holy Spirit, because there's a lack of, I think for most of us, a personal relationship. I would say if I had to say the number one thing that we often struggle with as believers is, as I think most people have the conceptual view, conceptual belief, yes, I have of course believe that there is a Holy Spirit, but I haven't whenever you were to ask or to challenge him to go, well, what's your relationship like with the Holy Spirit? I bet the average person, and I even look back in my own life, would go, oh man, how whenever I was younger, how much of a deep relationship did I actually have with the Holy Spirit? And I think that that's if I were to say the number one challenge would be that aspect that we so often don't see this relational piece.
Tyler Perrott:And I think some of that can stem if we go all the way back to our Trinity conversation, this aspect of viewing God in a triune relationship can stem from that. But then also that we are invited into a personal relationship with the Holy Spirit. I think is one of the great challenges that if we don't get right, it's gonna be a struggle for us as believers to even understand, okay, what does the Spirit do? How does He work? How does He impact our daily lives?
Tyler Perrott:Those things, if we don't ever get to that point of understanding, oh, there is a desire for a relationship with the Spirit, we'll never be able to move forward in how the Spirit's at work in our lives or even in the world around us.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. What would be kind of from your ministry context, Brian, when you think about Holy Spirit, where are some of those places that we need to be thinking about Holy Spirit and engaging with him in unique ways?
Brian Ball:We have to find there's a realization that there's two ditches on either side of our thinking about the Holy Spirit. It's we tend, and especially with the younger generation these days, it feels like they want to either ignore the spirit entirely and neglect that part of the Trinity. They don't have, like Tyler was saying, a personal relationship with him. But then there's also people that make everything about the spirit. Every emotional feeling that I have, every decision that I have to make, every gut feeling that I have is the spirit telling me to do something.
Brian Ball:And both of those can be incorrect. Maybe it is a gut feeling or the spirit is prompting you to do something, but he's also never not with you if you're a follower of Jesus. So scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit dwells inside of us. So what does that mean? Well, if something is dwelling inside of me, I should have a relationship with it.
Brian Ball:When I sit down with a student or when I sit with a leader or volunteer or a parent, or I get up to teach, I'm asking every time, Holy Spirit, fill me and allow me to be obedient to promptings that you give me in the midst as I serve. Because ultimately, if I try to do everything in my flesh or on my own understanding as someone who's very brain is wired a very specific way to think logically and things like that, I can often trend into ignoring him entirely because I think I can figure it out in my brain when oftentimes when I'm walking with the spirit, he's prompting me to do something that I wouldn't do in my flesh. And so being obedient to that is really important. But also not making every emotional high or experience attributing that to him. Yeah.
Brian Ball:Because then I can I find I get out of balance when that happens?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. It kind of even reminds me. So in John four, right, Jesus is talking to the woman at the well, and they're having this conversation and Jesus is trying to get after her heart. And so they begin to dance around religious conversations, which is kind of what happens. Right?
Luke Bilberry:Well, tell me, what do you believe about this? Well, I've heard it said this, there begins to be kind of a religious argument. But in that moment, he tells this tells this woman that he loves dearly, you know, because she's created by God and she's loved by God. He says, I tell you this, someday there's going to be a day when you will worship in spirit and in truth Mhmm.
Tyler Perrott:Which is
Luke Bilberry:kind of an interesting kind of thought, like, it's taking these two concepts of it and that there's this this spirit led aspect and there's this truth aspect to it. There's this logical piece of it. Mhmm. And they're both at work together. And I believe, 'm trying to remember where I learned, but a spiritual mentor in my life at some point in early high school, early college.
Luke Bilberry:I remember it was Ty Brown. He he told me the stories like, man, it's really like your two ditches analogy. It's it's like a river in the banks of a river. If a river is is is held back, the spirit is held back, it's going to bring death and destruction to to the life around it. But if if the spirit, if you're kind of this idea, emotions, feelings, we misunderstand this, if it just runs over and floods around, it brings death and destruction to the life that's meant to grow around it.
Luke Bilberry:But if there's spirit, a river feeling it, and there are banks of truth, man, life and goodness and beautiful things happen because that's the way it was designed to bring life to the trance and to please the foliage and the animals could come in, know, like all this. So as we think about that is a fun kind of way to think about that passage, what you're talking about.
Tyler Perrott:Luke, and I think something in there that I've just been like just meditating on in my own mind has been out of just this aspect of two Peter one, where it says, For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. So the spirit was sent to guide us into all truth. And I think maybe a ditch we've fallen into is that truth is opposed to emotion or life or vibrance. I think that those, that truth that the Spirit guides us into is designed to bring life and overflow of what God is doing and power of what he's doing. That is the guiding work of the spirit is designed to do that.
Tyler Perrott:And rather than just merely going, Oh, it's only truth or it's only emotion or it's only vibrance. No, these are they are meant to be something that is flowing together, that they're
Luke Bilberry:put together. That's really good. Well, as you kind of think through, because you're kind of beginning to talk about the work the Holy Spirit does, because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they all have unique parts of who they are as as as a person, but they also have unique parts of their function, the work that they get to do, just like just like any of us do, right? Like, we all have certain jobs that we're better at or we're skilled at or we're made to operate in. But before we kind of dive deep into that, why don't you guys talk to me a little bit from from the scriptures?
Luke Bilberry:Who is Holy Spirit? Help give us a working definition in this systematic theology called pneumatology, right? The study of Holy Spirit. Let's define, and even Pastor Joel did some of that for us, is that idea of who is the Holy Spirit? What would you guys say to that?
Brian Ball:You wanna start? Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, the first thing I think of is that he was there at creation. Yeah, Genesis one. He's always existed.
Brian Ball:Genesis one, spirit was hovering over the deeps, and there was nothing created yet. And it was through the power of the spirit and the spoken word that God created everything. And I think about that's where my brain goes immediately. Then also the baptism of Jesus is like, here's the Holy Spirit descending like a dove, marking Jesus as set apart as the Son of God. This is my son who I'm well pleased.
Brian Ball:And so those are the two places when I think about the Trinity and Holy Spirit that I go to immediately. And then when you process, okay, how did the Spirit work throughout the Old Testament? Well, we read many times about it rushing upon someone. And that's not to give them a superpower or anything like It's the Spirit of God was filling this person and encouraging them and building them up so that they could accomplish a purpose for the Lord in that moment. So you think about Samson and other people like that.
Brian Ball:And it's always been a moment where someone is being obedient to God. It's not, I need this right now for my own benefit. No, I'm going do something that's glorifying God. Samson's chained up in the temple and he says, Lord, fill me one more time so that I can serve you. And he does.
Brian Ball:It's never self serving. Always glorification. God's glory, God's purpose.
Tyler Perrott:And think that's what we look at whenever you see that word, that ruach, the wind or the breath, there's power aspect to that. Whenever we see that word, that's something that we have to be mindful of that there's this aspect of this is how the spirit is described, that we get to see that there's power and breath and life coming into existence. That's what I love about the Genesis one, but you can also extend that. I know I'm gonna write another work again, but that's like some of that aspect is that it's They're they're they're they're because Yeah. The spirit the spirit life.
Tyler Perrott:The spirit is a life bringer. Like, that's the thing that we have to recognize both as part of the work, but it's part of his identity
Luke Bilberry:as And maybe even like thinking through that, because Genesis one paints that picture, is this, it's this invisible, but undeniable presence.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Right? That the spirit hovered over the waters of the deep. So it's this thing we can't even see. And Jesus speaks to that when he speaks about Holy Spirit, he says, you don't know where the wind comes from, but man, you sure see its effect. Like, there's no denying it that when the spirit moves, there is power.
Luke Bilberry:I think it's the Bible project that talks about that ruach, Hebrew that word spirit that we see when it says spirit in Genesis one. It is ruach, however you need to pronounce that. And it is this animating force, right? That's part of who he is, is this animating life bringing, life creation force. But he's not just a force.
Luke Bilberry:He's a person. So I want to make sure that as we use those words, I want to dance carefully there.
Brian Ball:Well, it's similar in the way we talk about the Trinity. There is no analogy that can properly explain that. So we're going to use things interchangeably and we're not making he is a person. He also operates as a force sometimes. He upfills people.
Brian Ball:He's separate from people. Like, it's it's a paradox. We can't really wrap our minds around it
Luke Bilberry:We're that kind of in this Genesis space and who he is as this animating force. I'd love to get your your take because it happens in the Old Testament, and it happens in the New Testament. There's this moment of creation or recreation, right, where God calls everything to existence, but something's different when he creates mankind, right? He forms them with his hands and then he does what?
Brian Ball:Breathes into them. He breathes life.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And in the New Testament, Jesus does something similar, right? He breathes on the disciples.
Tyler Perrott:He breathes on the disciples. And so it's just this unique aspect that, yeah, there is life that is attached with the work of the Spirit. And I think that, I think for us, as I'm just trying to think through even practically as believers, that we have to recognize. I think one of the things that makes us uncomfortable about the Holy Spirit is the fact that He is uncontrollable to us. And so that there's an aspect that whenever the Spirit is at work, is beyond our control and sometimes even our comprehension, but we need the work of the Spirit in our lives and in the world around us to be able to bring life into people, into situations that we're walking into.
Tyler Perrott:We need the power of God to step into that.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. What'd got, If
Sarah Force:I can just cut in there quickly. Yeah. I think I think it's really cool that the Holy Spirit is not just the way that, God brings about physical life into Adam, breathes breath into his nostrils and brings life, but also spiritual life to us. Like, we see that happen as, he- Jesus sent him as the- as our connecto, the helper for us, to give us regeneration or new spiritual life, to sanctify us and to empower us for service, which reminds me of Romans eight, nine through 11, which says, You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh, but in the realm of the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Sarah Force:But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his spirit who lives in you.
Brian Ball:Yeah. So think about that.
Luke Bilberry:So good. Thanks for
Tyler Perrott:sharing Everybody
Brian Ball:that's listening and us sitting here, think about the last time or think about when you came to know Christ. In that moment, what was happening? The spirit was coming upon you.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And
Brian Ball:you were being filled with the spirit for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you it's like when Moses comes down from the mountaintop and his face is glowing. Like if you've seen When I see a student at Sunday night or camp or whatever and they meet Christ for the first time, I'm like, Oh, I got spirit bumps right now.
Brian Ball:You can tell. It's all over their face. And they are markedly different from that point because they've been filled. Because all that Sarah just read right there was Romans nine:eight. All just happened.
Brian Ball:New life, a heart of stone became a heart of flesh in that moment. And now they are filled with the spirit, their body that they're in a temple of the Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Like, I I remember that kinda like we were just I was we were just doing something else for our worship team. And I remember that moment vividly. The word of God was proclaimed at a camp that I was a part of. And it literally felt the way I've always remembered it even in the maybe not strongest memory that I have.
Luke Bilberry:It felt like an arrow pierced my soul, and something was wildly different. And I knew it beyond a shadow of doubt that something was wildly different. And and now knowing this, not as a as a as a young person, as I've grown in my faith and understanding, it is that moment. Holy Spirit, boom, showed up right there. Bill Barry is no longer the same, and I'm no longer my own, but there's this feeling, there is this new breath in my lungs, right, that lives that out.
Tyler Perrott:But I think there's so much value in needing to like fix our minds on that for a minute because the gospel and the work of the spirit isn't just about making bad people better. It's about bringing dead people to life.
Brian Ball:Yeah, come on.
Tyler Perrott:And so whenever we think about what's happening, whenever we're proclaiming the gospel, whenever having conversations with people, that has to be the truth that's there. It's like, oh, they just need to come to church more often. No, there is a deeply spiritual need that only the spirit can bring to these people. And that is bringing them from death to life. And that is something that we as believers have to be mindful of.
Tyler Perrott:We are praying for supernatural work in the lives of other people that we need that. We need the spirit to bring death to life.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, he's this the spirit, the presence, he is this breath that is sustaining us here and now, but he's also this breath of recreation, right? So there's this common grace that right now, every single one of us has a breath in our lungs that is alive. Right? But there is this there's this other work that we're talking about of of of new life in Christ that is then empowered by the presence, a person, Holy Spirit. Right?
Luke Bilberry:So so talk to me when you guys think about the Holy Spirit. Where are some other places that you see him at work? How do we how can we categorize maybe the work of the spirit to understand? Like in other passages, Paul writes to the church, may you walk by the Spirit, may you walk in step with the Spirit. So maybe begin to look at some of the work that he does.
Luke Bilberry:And then are we as believers, followers who've been redeemed, how can we keep in step with Holy Spirit?
Tyler Perrott:I mean, think the most, the one that's probably, I'll do the low hanging fruit here, no pun intended, Galatians five would be the fruit of the Spirit. Hey, nice. I'm a dad, all right? So that was great. Oh my gosh.
Tyler Perrott:But it's the word I
Luke Bilberry:apologize for my friend,
Tyler Perrott:Tyler Perry.
Luke Bilberry:And for those of you who like cheesy jokes, you're welcome.
Tyler Perrott:Yep. But that's I think some of the work, right? Is that we recognize that the spirit is at work producing in us the fruit of Christ like character. That there's this aspect that we must recognize that whenever we're trying to grow in our image and likeness of Christ, that is not by our own effort. That is by the spirit at work in us.
Tyler Perrott:And so we are submitting ourselves to God's spirit within us to be able to say, I need the Holy Spirit to work in my life, my heart, my actions, my beliefs, my attitudes to produce the fruit of what it looks like to be more like Jesus.
Brian Ball:It's always been a crazy thing for me to read in scriptures when Jesus says it's to your advantage that I go away so that I can send the helper. And for me, that's what the Holy Spirit is. Every time that I do anything that is a hard conversation, a talk with my kids, going on stage to teach, whatever it may be, I'm always praying for Holy Spirit to fill me because I know that I can't do what I need to do without his help. And so when you take that, it's like, how can I actually It tells us that if we walk by the Spirit, we will not gratify the desires of the flesh in that passage? And so that means if I'm walking with Holy Spirit, if I have a personal relationship with Him, it doesn't mean I'm never going to sin again, but it does mean that I'm going to be more easily able to resist temptation.
Brian Ball:I'm going to be able to be more sensitive to the needs of people around me because He's going to give me the ability, empower me, so to say, to be able to see things around me in a different way and to be able to respond to those. And it's my job as a believer to respond to those promptings. And I always have to check what I'm hearing or feeling that I'm feeling I may be prompted to do. I have to check it against the word of God. So if I walk by a box of donuts and I feel like I should eat three of those donuts, which happens just about every time I walk by a box of donuts, I can check that against scripture.
Brian Ball:And I know that's not the spirit telling me to eat three donuts. Right. Right. It's a silly example, but there are other ways that that manifests itself, is like what the spirit will do is it will align me with God's will, what he has for me in that moment, because he desires to draw all people closer to him. He desires for all people to be saved.
Brian Ball:And me, as a follower of Jesus engaging in the Great Commission, I should want to be sensitive to the people around me that need to hear the good news. And so the spirit as our helper is someone who intercedes on our behalf when we don't know what to pray. Scripture tells us he prays on our behalf. And I think we've probably all been in seasons of life where I don't know what to pray. Like I need help.
Brian Ball:And I don't know what to pray. I don't know what I need. I don't know what I should do right now. And so I just have to sit back and that's part of releasing control and walking with the spirit is saying, I'm just going to let you guide me here because I don't actually know what I'm supposed to do here. But it all goes back to like such a wild statement to hear the son of God say, it's to your advantage that I leave so that I can send the helper.
Luke Bilberry:When even just kind of walking that that storyline out a little bit. So there's this the disciples were just with Jesus physically. Right? And they've seen the the the power of God displayed. And and maybe even some way, you guys can correct me, but as I imagine the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, Jesus physically died, yet though he is God, so then how did physically he raise?
Luke Bilberry:By the spirit of God. The spirit of God. Breath filled his lungs again, and he began to move physically, which is again the same picture for us, right, as believers that though we are walking in human beings right now, this common grace of God, we are dead in our sins. But by grace, we become alive by the power of spirit resurrecting us internally, here and now and for eternity more, right? That is our understanding of salvation and theology is for the glory of the father through the son Jesus empowered by Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:What you got Ramsey? You gotta holler out. You gotta find a mic right
Tyler Perrott:why don't come over here? Over Just here.
Brian Ball:Come on, Ramsey.
Tyler Perrott:Man, we've upgraded. I
Ramsay Smith:was I was just really was just thinking about that. And when Jesus tells his disciples that, hey, I'm I'm leaving so that the helper can come. It's what,
Sarah Force:ten days before the the Holy Spirit
Ramsay Smith:comes on them. Then all of a sudden, these disciples who are like hiding and who are so fearful and who didn't understand, like Jesus had been saying, I'm going to die, I'm going to leave. And they still didn't get it. All of a sudden get it. Like when the Holy Spirit comes on them, they're like, they get it.
Ramsay Smith:And then that's the beginning of the church, the Holy Spirit with them. That's just so cool.
Tyler Perrott:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's exactly I
Luke Bilberry:love that. One, how you got pumped about
Tyler Perrott:it too.
Luke Bilberry:Because that's what acts one eight, it tells us. Right? Yep. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you like a rushing wind, filling the winds of yourselves. You will walk in this power.
Luke Bilberry:You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth. And and and that and after he's he gives us this prompt, this is the helper that's going to come and he's gonna fill us. But too often, I wonder for us is we want more of Jesus. And in doing so, we kind of forsake Holy Spirit when Jesus the whole time is saying, no, you need more of Holy Spirit in your life because he will empower you to do greater things. He'll empower you to endure.
Luke Bilberry:He will give you that wisdom and discerning. When you don't know how to pray, you can just sit in his presence and he'll begin to illuminate the scriptures and he'll help you understand these things and take whatever that next step. And that's where the start of the church is also the empowering force that is sustaining the church. Right? And also for the glory of the father.
Luke Bilberry:And so I think those are when I think about that work, that empowerment is such an important piece for us. And I think even you I just want to double down on what you said earlier, Pastor Brian, is that the spiritual gifts, the gifts of the spirit and the fruit of the spirit, these are not some superpowers or even resume builders. Right? Like, oh, look at me. I have this gift or I I I produce this kind of fruit in my life.
Luke Bilberry:It's how Holy Spirit is choosing to show up and manifest himself in our lives so that other lives are transformed. Right? That other people begin to understand who he is. And in doing so, we find wholeness and fullness in his presence. And so as I think about that one, that's just what a gift and a grace of God that we, the believers, have the empowering presence of God in us and through us.
Luke Bilberry:And so that's why trusting and receiving Christ is so important because then Holy Spirit
Tyler Perrott:takes place. It's that conduit, right? We get to be that conduit of God's spirit at work in our lives. And that should not cause us to have any sense of pride, but a great sense of humility that the spirit would dwell within us. Like that should blow our minds, that the very spirit of God would want to dwell in us.
Tyler Perrott:And that I think I just go back to just kind of Romans eight fourteen, For those who are led by the spirit of God are children of God. The spirit you've received does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again, rather spirit you received brought out your adoption to sonship. And by him, we cry Abba, Father, that there's this foundational aspect for us as believers that we get to recognize that the Spirit dwelling within us is a huge part of our identity, that we get to be, we are children of God, that that is our identity and that we have been adopted. And that is such a valuable aspect that for us, whenever we think about how we live our life, that we get to root all of our life in what the spirit has done in us and the identity that that brings and that so many of our challenges, so much of our insecurity is built out of a wrong identity. And so we get to come back to go, no, I am a child of God.
Tyler Perrott:The spirit dwells within me.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. For those who want to think just categorically and some of, you know, our people like you, Brian, who are logical and want to write things down in order just to show some love. Yep. A few of those things the Holy Spirit does, the Holy Spirit speaks. He leads.
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. He's grieved. Right? What's the scripture, Sarah or Ramsey or someone can can find that real quick? Like, we can grieve the Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:Mhmm. He comforts. Right? When we pray for a peace that surpasses all understanding, that peace isn't a feeling. It's a person.
Tyler Perrott:Mhmm. Yep.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Which is just wild. What a gift that it's a person. Right? He intercedes.
Luke Bilberry:You were calling that earlier. He that means he's praying as Jesus is praying at the right hand of the father, so is holy spirit interceding, praying for us. God, protect. God, help. God, would you give them grace?
Luke Bilberry:God, would you meet their needs? Right? He's interceding. He sends us. Right?
Luke Bilberry:Those promptings.
Tyler Perrott:I don't
Luke Bilberry:know what to do. Some of us have felt called, you know, quote unquote. What does
Tyler Perrott:that mean?
Luke Bilberry:What does that even mean? Well, it's a prompting literally Holy Spirit. I should probably go do this thing. Like, I remember being called, you know, to a ministry position, and there was times where it was like, that doesn't make any sense. And there's other times, like, felt like a gate was open and I was like, oh, that's Holy Spirit leading and guiding.
Luke Bilberry:Right? He teaches us. Right? When we open the word of God, I believe it's Calvin has some quote, like, anything apart from the Holy Spirit, you have no understanding for the Bible. He's the one that leads us into it.
Luke Bilberry:Yep. Well, as the guys,
Brian Ball:he inspired the writing of it, so he's going to be able to illuminate it for us as well and teach us what it means.
Luke Bilberry:Right. It's no wonder that some people read the Bible and they're like, I didn't get anything out of that. But is are you a believer's Holy Spirit in in dwelling in you and and bringing those to light?
Sarah Force:Yeah. You're allowing the word of God to dwell in you richly. Yeah. And the Holy Spirit allows that to happen as so even if you don't feel like you got anything out of a passage when you're reading, you still spent time with the Lord and you still allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate the scripture to you to hopefully mean, I again, another work of the Spirit allows you to work out your faith. The Holy Spirit convicts, as well as teaches from the beginning part of your salvation, where you're given new life and regeneration and you're aware of your sin and you're able to repent because of the Holy Spirit, you're able to, like you were talking about, Brian, you're aware of the temptation to sin and the Holy Spirit allows you to fight against temptation and to say no.
Sarah Force:But Holy Spirit also convicts us of our sin after we have already sinned or when we are sinning. And all of that is because of the power of the Holy Spirit, and only by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are able to work out our faith with fear and trembling in the passage that you were talking about, not grieve the spirit, Ephesians four thirty, but to continue to work out your faith as you see the day of redemption drawing near.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And when you think about that kind of grieving of the Holy Spirit, that would be that moment that God almighty, right, the one true God is residing inside of us, and we go against his leading. Right? That's grieving, hurting, not listening. But what a gift he's not forsaking us in the midst of that.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Nope. In total nerd moment, can I just have a nerd moment?
Tyler Perrott:Go ahead. Always You're
Brian Ball:sitting between two nerds. Yeah. So go gonna stop you right now. Yes.
Luke Bilberry:As I heard you say, let the word of God dwell in you richly. We are getting Trinitarian work of God at a place that the word logos, let him dwell in you richly, and the Holy Spirit of God illuminating that scripture so that a word would be a lamp into our feet and a light into our path. All this for the glory of the father. So we're seeing Trinitarian work even in the scriptures. And so that would just be an encouragement for each and every one of us is that, man, the the scripture, it's not just a book to memorize to pass a test.
Luke Bilberry:There's so much depth and richness and grace of God seen throughout every verse, we begin to use the Trinitarian view as a hermeneutic way of understanding the scriptures is is a really fun way to stir up worship and affection for the Lord.
Brian Ball:Mhmm.
Tyler Perrott:And I think it's this aspect of recognizing that all these things go together. Right? Again, we can't parse out all these individual aspects because they do have influence into one another.
Brian Ball:I mean, I just, the thing I've been
Tyler Perrott:thinking about is even from our Trinity conversation is like the Father sent the Son, the Son sent the Spirit, the Spirit sends right? So there's this aspect that we're constantly, all of these ideas are coming back together. They're valuable. They have to be interwoven. As we grow in one area, these other areas should go, Oh, what about that?
Tyler Perrott:What's happening over there? Oh, the Spirit, but that reminded me of this. And I think that's some of those aspects of the word dwelling richly within you that it grows, this aspect of understanding and seeing how these things begin to and fit work together.
Brian Ball:It's so important when we're looking at all these different core doctrines that, like you said, they're not independent of each other. So in this conversation, even, we've hit things about the doctrine of man and doctrine of sin. We've hit all these different things because they all layer on top of each other. And they interact with each other and interplay with each other. And so we can't just take one doctrine and this doctrine and think about them as separate.
Brian Ball:No, that's almost like they're overlaid on top of each other. And they give us a greater picture of who God is and who he's created us for and how he's going to redeem the world. And all of them layer on top of each other to get a better picture
Luke Bilberry:of who he is. So I wanna maybe dive into a little, maybe challenging scenario with this. And so I'm actually gonna invite Sarah to come and take my seat because you, Brian, and Sarah live in this next gen space. And these can be conversations. And, Sarah, you've recently walked a group of students through some something core a core doctrine series.
Luke Bilberry:I'm curious from a next gen space, and then you you, pastor Tyler, kinda navigating some of this. As we think about Holy Spirit, we can often just get so focused on the spiritual gifts or the fruit of the spirit. I think, hopefully, we've done a good job of highlighting the beauty and the awe of him as a person. But I'm wondering how does this begin to get lived out, particularly in the folks that you're leading? How are you guiding them to process this?
Luke Bilberry:Because I think sometimes we can often be so nervous about talking about Holy Spirit because there's so many questions that we just throw it out and ignore it. Or we can try to wrestle it down into something that we can just fully explain so deeply and be like, well, this, this, this, this, therefore, it doesn't. This is how it's all lined out. And that feels again that we keep coming back in our core podcast, if we can control it. Is that really God if we can wrestle it down, but so why
Tyler Perrott:don't you jump on? Before you sit here, you say in the podcast,
Brian Ball:Oh, Sarah, come join
Tyler Perrott:this scene. Wow.
Luke Bilberry:I love Alright. Alright.
Brian Ball:While while Sarah's getting settled, what was that Tozer quote you were reading before about 95%?
Luke Bilberry:Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it it there's a quote from Tozer that says, if Holy Spirit left our church today, meaning his presence and power and spirit wasn't with us, we would probably still do 95% of the same things. And he writes that as a way to challenge the church. Is what we're doing, is it truly filled with the Holy Spirit, right, which is often a prayer that we pray.
Luke Bilberry:It's often the the worship songs we sing is Holy Spirit fill us, you know, even though he's with us. There's like that fun, beautiful challenge. Know, like, Holy Spirit, we welcome you here, but you're always here with us because you're omnipresent, because you're God. There's like that fun little but there's this recognition of it. Are we trying to do things in our own strength, in our own will and way, or are we going to do things that are led by the spirit, prompted by the spirit?
Luke Bilberry:Because if we do that, that's where the power is. That's where God's presence shows up. But if we're doing things our own strength,
Brian Ball:So God have I'm glad you said that because when I was thinking about you asked about in the next gen space where we've seen maybe a misunderstanding or an overemphasis, whatever it may be. I love what you said about trying to do things our own strength. So if you remember, maybe it was two years ago, there was that revival sweep happening across college campuses and just thousands of kids. And I remember there was a Sunday morning I had a couple of our students that came up to me and they said, we should have that here. And I looked at them and said, what would you like me to do?
Brian Ball:Would you like four
Luke Bilberry:hour worship service or something?
Brian Ball:Yeah. You almost said Right. Like, I can't conjure that up. Like, and I'm certainly not gonna get up there and and try to have some emotional experience for you to be able to feel like this revival movement is happening here too. Like that is by the grace of God that that is happening.
Brian Ball:And so what oftentimes I find myself doing with students is reframing what is actually happening around them in terms of the Holy Spirit, in terms of how He's working, in terms of when we change a worship service halfway through because we just feel like there's something going on here and we want to double down on something. And it's a lot easier to do that on a Sunday night than on a Sunday morning True. Just because of the way things are around here and how difficult that would be on a Sunday morning. But we try to be more sensitive to that with students because it also opens a door to be able to teach them what okay, what's actually happening right now? And so I wanted you to read that quote because I think it's good for us to process personally, like in my own life, would I keep doing 95% of the same things if the spirit wasn't a part of In my small group, in my discipleship group, my home, in my ministry areas that we all serve in, like if started, if it was removed, we'd 95% keep doing the same things.
Brian Ball:Because if the answer to that is yes, then we're probably missing the mark in some way. And it's even convicting for me as I sit here and say it. Because I'm sitting here thinking of five different ways that I've done things in my own strength in all of those areas. And I have to repent of
Luke Bilberry:that. Right.
Brian Ball:Because I've chosen to do things in my own strength and not rely on the helper to guide me.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's a good
Sarah Force:It kind of reminds me of just the phrase that we say a lot here is if we can control it, then it's not a movement of God. It's not the Holy Spirit working. And so, like talking about even Sunday nights, like recognizing the work of the Spirit is seeing like, okay, the room is actually resonating way more with this truth rather than what we thought that we were going to be singing about later. And so we shift a song because we feel like this is what the people need our people need to be sitting and what they need to be resonating on meditating on. And so we make a shift last minute.
Sarah Force:And I think one of the biggest questions that I get is how do you recognize that? How do you recognize the work of the spirit? How do I or kind of lumping in with that question of like, how do I know that I'm following God's will? How do I know that I'm stepping in step with the spirit and step with the will of God? And the first thing that I would typically respond with is, do you recognize the voice of God?
Sarah Force:Do you know the word of God well enough to recognize whether the prompting that you're receiving right now is from the spirit or if it's from your emotions or if it's from your flesh? There's a lot of different voices that are trying to speak into especially the younger generation. And so that's one of the first things that I say to our students is, do you know the voice of God? Are you spending time in the word to be able to recognize whether something actually lines up with scripture or not, whether this is your emotion talking or the world talking or if this is the Holy Spirit, because Holy Spirit will always speak in line with Scripture. So that is the first thing that I always tell our students.
Luke Bilberry:What are some of the questions that like as your group of students, as y'all were walking through some of this doctrine class with Luke Wing, our student ministry director, what were some of the things that they were wrestling with? Because probably the reality is probably if they're wrestling with it, probably us as adults have still been wrestling with it. Because maybe we've not had all the right conversation or done the right study with it.
Sarah Force:Yeah, I mean, in our doctrine class, because I mean, it's honestly so funny. I to do the doctrine class before I even knew that we were going to go through a Core Doctrine series as a church. So, obviously, Holy Spirit of God is speaking all of us. We were talking about within the conversation of Holy Spirit, just the subject of spiritual warfare. And I think that's something that we all have questions about.
Sarah Force:That's something that I'm quick to say that things of the spirit are going to be hard to understand and even harder to articulate. And so I had a lot of students asking questions like, how do I discern whether something is spiritual warfare or something is just me wrestling with my flesh? So, I mean, that I don't even think that I could give you like the best answer possible to that one. But again, it's always coming back to the word of God and letting that be the measuring stick to how we answer all of those kinds of questions. But also, like, how much are you filling your mind with the word of God to be able to recognize the voice of God within that conversation in the mind?
Sarah Force:Because like Brian was saying earlier, you'll receive a prompting or a thought from Holy Spirit that you would not in your flesh choose to do. Like, remember having I had a battle recently or not recently, a few years ago when I was in camp ministry where I was having a conversation with a student who very much did not like me. She was not interested in spiritual conversations. She didn't want to be at camp. Her parents forced her to.
Sarah Force:And I was ready for cabin rest time. We used to spend time just like in our cabins, take a nap, do whatever you want, rest, whatever, recharge. And I was ready. I was tired. I was ready.
Sarah Force:And I was sitting with her and I just had the thought pop into my head, ask her what she's been thinking of the sermon so far. And I was like, that's funny. I don't really want to ask for that because I don't want to open that conversation. And that's your flesh. That's very clearly the flesh.
Sarah Force:Did not want to ask her that. And it just kept popping into my head. I wasn't asking her and just kept repeating over and over again You need to ask her, you need to ask her, you need to ask her. And so I did and we ended up having a four hour long conversation where she asked so many questions about the church, about the character of God. She was angry with God about a lot and had a crazy good gospel conversation.
Sarah Force:And being able to discern like, Okay, is this my flesh or is this the Holy Spirit? Like, just that question, I think often falls in line with, Okay, in my flesh,
Ramsay Smith:is this something that I would choose to do?
Sarah Force:No. Is it in line with what scripture would have me do? Like, start a gospel conversation.
Brian Ball:Yeah.
Sarah Force:Then it's probably the Holy Spirit and letting kind of that be how you discern whether flesh or Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. It kind of thinking through some of as you're talking about that, that that wrestling between is this my flesh? Is this my understanding? The voices in my head, if you will, may sound very similar, you know, but one is a prompting of Holy Spirit. One is the flesh.
Luke Bilberry:Things may be, you know, of the enemy on on and however, again, that's some some further conversations about, you know, spiritual warfare, angels, demons, that sort of stuff. Humanity is and coming podcast episodes. But as we think about that is we are called there's one spirit, Ephesians four tells us this, that there is one body, one spirit, just as you were called the one hope when you were called one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father overall. And so I think about even in those moments whenever what is Holy Spirit leading and guiding us to? It's it's usually some type of it's resonating with all of us in a moment.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Because what's the old old testament passage? That deep Christ deep. Right? That that that this Holy Spirit, if he's at work in you, there's one spirit.
Luke Bilberry:He's not going to be working differently in my life. Right? And so the community of believers becomes so essential because Holy Spirit is showing up as our helper, our plural helper individually and corporately. And so that's something unique as we're thinking about students and sometimes maybe how we can get it wrong in this next gen as we the Holy Spirit is about me and we layer on about hermeneutic is our American Western individualism Mhmm. Versus this corporate spiritual connectedness because God is a God from Genesis to everything.
Luke Bilberry:He's a God who's bringing everything into order. He is recreating and he is pulling things in. Right. So whenever things feel out of control and that's a moment that we need to lean into Holy Spirit, who's bringing unity and peace and order into into life. And that's where maybe we don't know how to pray.
Luke Bilberry:I just need to sit with with the Lord. Right. And that's what we got to do on Sunday is as a church, is we get to sit and do these breath prayers, pneuma prayers, Ruach prayers, right? That these breath prayers. Mean, Brian, how has that I mean, you've used that in your ministry before as we got to experience as a corporate body to these these these breath prayers.
Brian Ball:Yeah. It's it's amazing how you you force, and I'm sure some of you may have felt this on Sunday, scripture tells us to be still and know that he is God. And how often do we take time to actually be still? And it's interesting to me when I've led breath prayers like that in our student ministry, as I look around and they're really struggling to just be still. And some of that is the generational, like how that generation is TikTok generation.
Brian Ball:Like they're easily, they got go from one thing to the next.
Sarah Force:Yeah, short attention span.
Brian Ball:Some of that is we as parents, we don't ever let our kids be bored. So we have some sort of responsibility to play in that as well. Right? But I think about that, those prayers, and I think about also what you were saying about one body, one spirit. And it's often tempting for us to still look down on the younger generation.
Brian Ball:All they're young, they don't get it. They don't understand. But in reality, I mean, they don't have a teenage version of the Holy Spirit. My kindergartners don't have a kindergarten version of the Holy Spirit. They have Holy Spirit.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. There is
Brian Ball:is It's the same one.
Luke Bilberry:That's good.
Brian Ball:And so shame on me. Shame on me when I look down on a kid who wants to go do something wild. I think about summer camp last year when we said, hey, can we fund an entire Bible translation? And our kids got so fired up about that. And they were doing crazy stuff to raise money.
Brian Ball:And they ended up funding two Bible translations. That's the same spirit that's at work in me and you is empowering them and encouraging them and strengthening them to go do the same thing. When I'm going with my daughter on a daddy daughter date and she tells me in the car that if she had a ton of money, she would start an orphanage. That's the spirit prompting her to something like that. That's not something that she would just come up with on her own.
Brian Ball:She saw people in need. She knows that we've wanted to adopt. And whatever reason the spirit is stirred in her heart at the age of nine, I'm going to open an orphanage. Wow. And so like that is Holy Spirit at work in her life.
Luke Bilberry:For sure.
Brian Ball:That's not for me to squash that. You want to talk grieving the spirit. Me as a parent squashing that, man, I hope I never do that. For my kids or the kids that we get to serve, like I hope I never do that. I think about one of our special needs kiddos.
Brian Ball:I told this story at spring celebration, which summer celebration August 2, everyone should
Tyler Perrott:be there.
Brian Ball:Shadows plug. Am I allowed
Tyler Perrott:to do that? You think so?
Luke Bilberry:Yes, please. It's gonna be fun as we pray and ask Holy Spirit to do abundantly more than we ever could ask him out with Grandville and all life transformation.
Brian Ball:So we have a kid in our ministry, nonverbal autism, and he has learned worship songs. And he goes to school and he sings his worship songs. And his parapro comes to church now. That's the same spirit that's at work in me and you is at work in that kid.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That that word yeah. Nonverbal, yet pneuma breath is going to work in and through. Right.
Brian Ball:Come on. So when Paul writes, don't look don't don't don't look down on them because they're young, but you you young people can set an example in your speech and in your conduct and the way you carry yourself.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Brian Ball:So, my ministry is called NextGen, but they're the church right now, man. Yeah. Like the same spirit is at work in them. Yeah. That's at work in me and you.
Luke Bilberry:That's exactly right. It's so true. So true.
Ramsay Smith:And you
Sarah Force:can learn from them. I feel like that's something that I'm often reminded of is like they may be younger than me, but the amount of times that I have been blessed by or I have learned from those that are younger than me, same Holy Spirit. And they're still encouraging me and even sharpening me in ways that I think sometimes they don't even realize that they are sharpening me. But just by the example that they're setting in their faith, the boldness that they're setting in their schools that like I was not that way in high school and I should have been. Had the same Holy Spirit then.
Sarah Force:So, yeah, not look down on them for their youth, for sure.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. I mean, because as as we kind of think about wrapping this conversation up, I'm reminded of a quote from J. I. Packer, he says, the Holy Spirit's main ministry is not to give thrills, but to create in us Christ like character.
Brian Ball:Yep.
Luke Bilberry:Right? And that's what we're talking about, that that if we are called to a childlike faith, if we're called to a dependent faith, and Jesus says it's better that I go so that the helper, right, the the eternal God companion in you, working through you, sanctifying you, leading you, guiding you, helping you. And I think that's the invitation for us. Right? Is are we living Holy Spirit dependent lives?
Luke Bilberry:Are we are we people that are as the deer pants for the water so my soul longs for you?
Brian Ball:Yeah. Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:And Jesus says, I I I'm gonna give you a drink and you will thirst no more. And then Holy Spirit, will we be people who lean into the third person of the Trinity? Will we be people who seek him and pray to and with him? Right? As he intercedes for us, just say whatever he says, Jesus, that's what I'm praying to.
Luke Bilberry:Right? I'm I'm yes and amen in what Holy Spirit's praying in my life. And may we be a church. I mean, maybe I can be a little forward, Brian, you know, correct me if I say anything out of this. But would we be a church that when the Holy Spirit says something that prompts us, may you take action immediately?
Tyler Perrott:Mhmm.
Luke Bilberry:Whether it's to open the orphanage, whether it's to start the ministry, whether it's to have the conversation. Yeah. Would we be a church that it says no matter what, when Holy Spirit speaks, when God speaks, it demands a response. And we're gonna say yes, whatever that looks like.
Brian Ball:Because you could say no. That is a response. Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Or no is, and you can grieve him.
Brian Ball:It's a disobedient response, but it is a response.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so, Brian, why don't you do this out, man? Why don't you just pray us out in the name of the father, son, and the holy spirit?
Brian Ball:Would you
Luke Bilberry:pray us out today?
Tyler Perrott:Yeah.
Brian Ball:God, we are thankful We are thankful that you make yourself known to us and that one of the ways you make yourself known to us is through Holy Spirit. That it's regeneration, it's salvation, it's sanctification. It is making hearts of stone into hearts of flesh because your Spirit fills people. And I thank you that you intercede on our behalf, Holy Spirit, that you are our helper, that we can trust you to give us eyes to see people around us that need to know the saving power of Jesus Christ. May we be a church that is responsive to Holy Spirit.
Brian Ball:May we never grieve the Holy Spirit. May we always be seeking the things of God. And I pray for the parents that are listening, help them. God, I'm even thinking now about the way that I need to repent of how I've maybe squashed the Holy Spirit in different moments. May the parents that are listening help their kids discover how they've been wired and created to fulfill the great commission.
Brian Ball:And may we as a church be encouraged by what's happening in the next generation because they can spur us on. May we learn from them as much as they learn from us. And so we're grateful for this time to, not a complete time to talk about everything about the Holy Spirit, but that we pray that the words that we spoke today would be honoring and glorifying to you, that it would help our brothers and sisters listening to know you in a deeper way. And it's in Jesus name that we pray. Amen.
Luke Bilberry:Amen. Hey, if you have any questions, head to our website, chapel-point.org, at core podcast. You can put your questions in there. Resources are there to help you continue to dive deeper into understanding who God is so you can live for him everywhere.