The Mentzer Method

Introduction
  - Brandon and Joe discuss a three-part Netflix series featuring Arnold Schwarzenegger.
  - The series covers Arnold’s life in three phases: Strength, Movies, and Politics.

Main Points
  - Arnold Schwarzenegger Series Breakdown
    - Part 1: Strength – How Arnold built his physique and became a bodybuilding icon.
    - Part 2: Movies – Arnold’s transition from bodybuilder to Hollywood superstar.
    - Part 3: Politics – Arnold's venture into politics, addressing the possibility of a Presidential run.
  Mike Mentzer & Heavy Duty Training System
    - Known for four 30-minute workouts a week.
    - Focus on high-intensity training until absolute muscle failure.
    - Advocated for the science of overcompensation, where muscles grow during recovery.
    - Emphasized the importance of individualization in workout routines.
  Benefits of the Mentzer Method
    - Brief, intense workouts help prevent overtraining.
    - Reduced risk of repetitive use injuries.
    - System suitable for those with tight schedules.
    - Promotes maximum muscle growth.
    - Training less frequently allows for better recovery.
Caveats
    - The method requires prior training experience and perfect form.
    - Recovery is more than just rest; it requires sleep, proper nutrition, and hydration.
    - Mentzer took steroids, which were legal at the time, to support his training.

Conclusion
  - Joe and Brandon emphasize tailoring workouts to individual needs and goals.
  - The Mentzer method is effective for those looking to build muscle quickly but may not suit everyone.
  - The overarching message is to listen to one's body and prioritize recovery.
  - Wrapping up with humor, they joke about the need to watch the Arnold series on Netflix.

Sponsors
- (Jokingly) Snickers

References
- Arnold Schwarzenegger's Netflix series
- Mike Mentzer’s training method
- Jennifer Garner's training approach for "Alias"
- Chris Benoit's unfortunate end

Recommendations
- Prioritize sleep and recovery for muscle growth.
- Experiment with the Mentzer method if you have a solid foundation in weight training.
- Always prioritize safety and form during workouts.
- Consider the longevity and sustainability of your training approach.

Creators & Guests

Host

Brandon Woolley

Founder of Fire Within Nutrition and Fitness, The Triangle’s effective personal trainer, Brandon Woolley will help you with sustainable & science-based methods for lasting change.

Producer

Joe Woolworth

Owner of Podcast Cary, your friendly neighborhood studio.

What is Fire Within Nutrition and Fitness?

If you want to transform your life with nutrition and fitness, there are no shortcuts. You need a sustainable plan: the right mindset, and the knowledge and inspiration to stoke the fire within. Just like the Phoenix, you can burn your old habits, never turn back, and emerge anew.

[00:00:00]

Brandon: So Not too long ago. We watched this three part series on Netflix that Arnold Schwarzenegger had done

Joe: watched this three part series on Netflix. Then we were unfortunate.

Brandon: It went terrible.

Joe: Netflix. to watch it. I knew it was going to be good. I just. Just, I was dragging butt trying to load it up. I don't know what the deal was, but yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was the three parts. The first part was about his, what was it?

Movies. Yeah. First part was movies,

Brandon: wait, wait, wait, wait. No, it wasn't. I'm an idiot. It was his strength

Joe: That's right. The first part was strength

Brandon: that

Joe: I think the theme that went through him all is that guy was driven. Like he didn't do anything

Brandon: If you watch that, you feel lazy as shit. [00:01:00] I don't. And he kind of tied

Joe: and he kind of tied it back to, he said his dad ingrained it into him be useful.

I don't know how that got him to get big muscles, but it really seemed to work for him. Definitely when he switched to movies and then the third part was about his political career, which made me think, I thought for a couple of minutes that it was going to end with it. That's why I'm running for president in 2024.

I

Brandon: But I guess legally he can't. Right.

Joe: don't know. Yeah. Cause I guess he wasn't born here. That's how it works.

Brandon: Yep, yep. Although anything could be possible, you never know. But no. Excellent, excellent film. In.

Joe: as an American, so.

Brandon: Yeah, there we go. Love him or hate him, you have to respect his drive. But a couple characters in the film that popped up Lou Ferrigno, of course.

Anybody want a peanut? You know, it's that guy from oh, why can't I think of the name of that movie? The princess bride.

Joe: Yeah, and he was the Incredible Hulk,

Brandon: Incredible Hulk. He was Andrew the [00:02:00] giant. So that's somebody he trained with and then also this guy named Mike Mencer who was hugely influential in the bodybuilding world.

And that's kind of what we're going to focus on today is Mike Mencer's workout technique. And, those that aren't familiar, basically, he would do four 30 minute workouts a week, and that was it. And he was one of the foremost, most prolific bodybuilders of all time, coached hundreds and hundreds of

Joe: time, coached hundreds and hundreds of people.

Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. And these other guys are spending two, three, four hours a day in the gym. He's just doing 30 minutes, four times a week, and it's working. So I thought it'd be fun to talk about that and, and pick this apart or actually Joe thought this would be fun and he's, and he's

Joe: I think it was because I was thinking, I don't got time to work out that much.

Brandon: You saw a youtube video and

Joe: times, four times a week and I was like, Oh, that sounds great. Does that work?

Brandon: Absolutely can. Now a couple disclaimers about this approach. It is important to remember that Mike Mencer as was [00:03:00] legal at the time was taking small amounts of steroids. And he started when he was 12, 12 years old. Yeah. I was still picking my nose at 12. I was not lifting weights.

Joe: I was doing it when he was young

Brandon: Yeah, Arnold, but if, if you have no experience with exercise, it's a terrible idea to jump into Mike Munster's

Joe: a beginner's program.

Brandon: a beginner's program.

Joe: And we'll kind of get into that.

Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. We'll pick it all

Joe: why it's bad.

Brandon: Yeah. So we have about 12 points here. We'll, we'll go over the point and then we will give our feedback, like those two guys up in the box on the Muppets, what are their

Joe: I never remember, but the two grumpy guys,

Brandon: and they just cracked jokes and stuff.

Joe: but when I saw the YouTube video that I've get me interested in the topic was the idea of getting quickly to effective reps, reps that actually help you grow muscle in getting. [00:04:00] And not doing so many junk reps. And so the way that the video described it, that I, that I watched, that kind of made me bring this topic up was, you know, a lot of us, we go to the gym and we're doing like, say we're doing 10 to 12 reps and we might do three sets.

Most of those, like the video said, 80, 90 percent of those are junk reps. In other words, they're not helping us grow muscle. They're still having good. Health effects for us for sure. But we're talking about specifically putting on

Brandon: growth, growth, growth, mass

Joe: gains,

Brandon: gains, bro.

Joe: And so it's all about, this guy's technique is all about basically trying to not do any junk ones

Brandon: And just get straight into productive reps.

Joe: get straight into it, which is way different than the way I work out.

Brandon: Yeah. 'cause once you start feeling fatigued, that's when you're finally starting to. to do some change and not just maintain what you have. So I've always trained to what I call good form failure. Not quite to the bone crushing muscle failure that Mike Mentzer is talking about, but but my niche hasn't been mass [00:05:00] building.

It's been staying healthy, staying in the gym as long as possible.

Joe: think it's possible to, to still get to muscle failure and maintain good form?

Brandon: As long as you quit on the last rap where you have perfect form. I think so.

Joe: So I, I have to imagine that this guy that started this having started at 12 had mastered form pretty early on.

Brandon: I would

Joe: And so 30, 40 years into training, when he goes and, He throws out the super heavy weights. He's probably starting and ending with good form. Yeah, absolutely.

And he was training with Arnold and all these guys and that Venice Beach

Brandon: So he's not a guy that just waltzed into planet fitness for the

Joe: not a waltzed into Planet Fit. It's give me the heaviest weight.

Brandon: Yeah. So, you know, he primed. Watch the

Joe: a YouTube video. Stand back.

Brandon: So he primarily stays in the six to eight rep range, which is kind of that mid heavy range. You know, for general fitness, typically 10 to 12 is more common, but six to eight, you're getting a little bit heavier.

It's not like world strongman competitions where you're doing [00:06:00] one to five reps. It's, it's a little bit more than that. But let's just kind of pick this apart. So he called it the heavy duty training system, which is rooted in the principles of high intensity training, hit training, as you've heard, but different than high intensity interval training. Yeah, so this isn't as cardio based, although it will have a cardiac effect for sure. And the core idea was maximal muscle growth being stimulated by brief, intense bouts of exercise to the point of muscle failure. Now, now most people when they get to 12 or the end of their set. They could struggle through probably three or four more reps, but we typically don't.

They go, okay, I'm starting to feel it. That's it. And they end their set. That's not what Mike Menzer is doing. He's using enough weight and enough load that he's having to fight tooth and nail. And it's taking, it might take him 15, 20 seconds to complete one rep as it gets towards the end of that six to eight reps set. was like doing shoulder raises, which are his favorite. And it was taken forever. Yeah. on a machine.[00:07:00]

Joe: He's using enough weight and 15, 20 seconds to second mark.

Brandon: Yeah. I mean, you're shaking, you're struggling, you're fighting, fighting, fighting. But again, maintaining that perfect form throughout is very, very important and not cheating and not compensating.

Now for the average Joe, they don't have that tolerance to pain and that tolerance to, to that type of fatigue and typically something would break down or compensate. But when you have years and years and years under your belt of perfect, perfect form repetitions,

Joe: And I think, I think it was a mindset thing, too. He seemed very clear what his goal was. He wanted to put on, he didn't want to spend six hours a day in the gym. He wanted to look like it, but he didn't want to. And so for him, I imagine the trade off was, yeah, this half an hour is kind of real suck, but then I'm going to the beach.

Brandon: that's right.

Joe: So the second thing is the philosophy of minimalism. So focusing on doing quality over quantity.

Brandon: There you go. There are, especially when we get earbuds in, or if you're at a commercial gym and there's other people around [00:08:00] distracting, you're just kind of cruising through the first two thirds of every set. There's no real sincere work going on. But from the get go, the very first rep you're struggling,

Joe: It's a very different mentality. Cause there's, I think that's what most people think the gym is. Like the last two are hard.

Brandon: Yeah,

Joe: Of the sets like you'll do three sets in the last two of the last set are the ones that are

Brandon: Yeah. So if that's the way you're trained in, you're probably not going to see significant change. Not to the degree that Mike Mentzer's approach

Joe: But that way of training is still good for your heart good for Your muscles good for your bones like it's good for you straight training is good for you This guy just had a he's a he was a radical departure from what everybody else was doing

Brandon: Absolutely. So he would train to the point of absolute muscle failure to where the muscle physically could not. Continue even after, you know, mind over matter, even once that's exhausted. And then finally, it just, that's it. I can't do another rap. And what this does [00:09:00] is the longer you struggle against something as you're trying to move it, you can recruit more and more and more muscle fiber as you struggle, struggle, struggle.

And the more it tries to recruit the stronger, the more breakdown, the more tear that happens. So during recovery. That's where you see the benefit. So remember when you're working out, you are breaking down muscle tissue. You are not building muscle in the gym. You are building muscle after the gym if you're properly recovering.

And that was part of his philosophy of only 30 minutes four times a week. So most of his time is spent recovering. And I do think a lot of people over train and end up inhibiting their gains, thinking that they're working harder to, to, to get there faster. But, but that's not necessarily the case, especially using this method.

Joe: not necessarily the case, especially using this method.

Brandon: Yeah. What

Joe: And I mean, crazily, the heavy duty is that if you don't know what you're [00:10:00] doing,

Brandon: Yeah, the more weight you use, I mean.

Joe: your odds of getting injured

Brandon: Now think about a deadlift, you know, one, one rep with bad form with 400 pounds on the

Joe: good tweak.

Brandon: you can slip a disc, go do all kinds of stuff. But if you're an absolute professional, you know what you're doing you've got years under your belt, then this could be a good

Joe: So four times a week means he was at least.

Brandon: three days

Joe: of the week not lifting at all and then for 23. 5 of the 24 hours

Brandon: yeah,

Joe: anything

Brandon: yeah, which is pretty wild. Now his point is overtraining can impede muscle growth and lead to injury as we just talked about because you're breaking down in the gym.

Joe: I like that point right that muscles grow outside the gym during recovery I mean you just said it earlier

Brandon: Yeah, and then proper protein, proper hydration. People ask me all the time, you know. Yeah, sleep. Exactly. That's where your anabolic growing hormones are, is when you're sleeping. So if your sleep's screwed up... And you're doing everything else right, I think it'd be pretty tough to grow muscle.

So I'm sure he was really focused [00:11:00] in and honed in on his sleep and how that was going. He's probably not out until two in the morning drinking. So he's probably in bed nine, 10 o'clock at the latest, making sure he gets at least eight to 10 hours which is very tough. Very popular in the news was Tom Brady's routine and how he was able to stay in the game so long at such a high level.

But he was crazy about his sleep schedule, 10 to 11 hours. Which, I have a one year old now, that's never gonna

Joe: He didn't have a one year old when he was doing 10 to 11 hours.

Brandon: Yeah. So next point is science of overcompensation. So after intense training, the body not only repairs damaged muscle fibers, but also builds them larger to handle future stress. So we just talked about the breakdown in the gym that signals growth hormone to rebuild that.

area stronger. And another thing to point out is it's during the stretch portion, not the lifting portion, but that stretch portion is you control the weight back to the starting position where most of that tear and breakdown happens. So Mike Mentzer is taking his time on that stretch, that eccentric portion of the lift, which we [00:12:00] eccentrics.

Joe: I like, I think his mentality had to just be so different. It wasn't like when people were like, how many reps you can do? He's I don't care about that. Yeah. How many sets? I don't care about that.

Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Joe: That's not what I'm doing in here.

Brandon: Yeah. Now the next point energy systems and glycogen. So high intensity training depletes muscle glycogen rapidly. So muscle glycogen is basically sugar stored in the cell.

It's what the muscles, the form of sugar muscles used to activate and get work

Joe: That's why you should always eat a Snickers before you

Brandon: Exactly. This episode is sponsored by Snickers.

Joe: Oh, not the same, not the same glycogen. Okay.

Brandon: This is especially beneficial for those with busy schedules, allowing for consistency, which is key for long term muscle growth.

Joe: If you talk to the normal average person and they have a goal and their goal is, Hey, I want to look bigger. I want to get some gains. People don't, we don't have an infinite threshold of willpower, right? So if you talk to that person and you're like, Hey, all right, here's what it's going to take.

You're going to be in the gym three hours a day, [00:13:00] six days a week. And you're going to, you're going to get there in a couple of years. People are like, you know what? I'm, I look fine.

Brandon: yeah. All right. I'm gonna to Chipotle

Joe: feel very sustainable. Whereas four times a week, half an hour a day, that seems pretty sustainable. I remember I was listening to a podcast and Jennifer Gardner was on there.

She's a lady that's in alias

Brandon: Yeah.

Joe: and I don't know what's going on with Hollywood right now. It seems like when they're 70 they look like they're 25. And Jennifer Gardner is one of these people.

Brandon: surgery,

Joe: don't know. I don't think so. Not, I don't think in her case, but anyway, she was talking about alias and how the training schedule was so crazy and she used to have to train for hours and hours to get in shape when she was doing that TV show where she was a spy and she was doing all the fight scenes.

And she said, I don't know why it stuck with me the way that it did, but I remember I had a trainer and he told me you can always do a half an hour and that just stuck with

Brandon: Yeah. Yeah.

Joe: If you're like, Oh, I've got a busy day. You can always do a half an hour. And I think that's a lot more attainable for [00:14:00] people than you can always do three hours a day. No, you can't.

Brandon: No, you can't. Yeah.

Joe: And you got to remember these guys in that scene, like that was their job.

Brandon: Yeah.

Joe: Like they didn't also have other jobs that they went to. Well, maybe they did. But certainly it was a large commitment.

Brandon: Yeah. All right. So next point is reduced risk of injury. So again, this is if you know what you're doing and you have that base and you have perfect form, but less time in the gym does mean fewer opportunities for injury.

Joe: And again, these guys were probably training with people that were eyeballing them the whole time and not letting them get away with stuff.

I have to imagine if you worked out with Arnold, he's not Ah, your form's not great, but you keep going. You know, I just don't, I don't see him saying that. He's Stop it.

Brandon: I it now.

Joe: you how to do it. I got a great Austrian accent.

Brandon: I

got a great Austrian accent. And then the joints. I think that's a good point [00:15:00] because most injuries are repetitive use injuries. When you think

Joe: joint injuries more so than...

Brandon: Typically your tendonitis at different points from repetitive patterns. I mean, think carpal tunnel, think rotator cuff issues. It's all from repetitive either use or stagnation into certain periods.

So I do think there's a huge I think that is a very good point that, that the less hours of repetitive strain than the better the joints tendons probably can do, but also if it's proper repetitive strain, it strengthens those areas.

Joe: it strengthens the muscles. Steroid injections. Which was part of it. But yeah, so

Brandon: injections,

Joe: think

Brandon: was part of it. But yeah, so I do think that's a fair point to within certain boundaries. [00:16:00] So next is individualization. So he emphasized that it was really important to tailor the program to individual needs, which meant not everybody was doing the same exercises or the same way. Do you think he took into account people's, you know, range of motion, their joint mobility, you, [00:17:00] but you should do know enough

Joe: So he a trainer? Like, why is this, why is this saying okay,

Brandon: Yeah, yeah, he did take a lot of people under his wing and work and then he would do talks and all kinds of stuff

Joe: to have to

Brandon: He's got some famous audio Recordings used to have to buy it like on a multiple tape set now It's unlike actually had an old client give me a CD version.

It was like eight CDs or something hard copy CDs

Joe: absolutely. So, at least he was looking at

Brandon: Yeah

Joe: individualization.

Brandon: Yeah, absolutely. So at least he was looking at an individualization. This is everyone's recovery recovery ability and tolerance to insensitivity. Very, so it's crucial to listen to one's body. I can't tell you the number of times I've said, listen to your body, listen to your body, listen to your body.

So if any joint is giving you feedback that, hey, this doesn't feel right, you should stop immediately.

Joe: crucial to your body. So if feels [00:18:00] it, but, but if he feels like there's

Brandon: Maybe so he puts off, well, maybe not just feels it, but, but if he feels like there's a joint issue, if something's aggravating the low back in a way it's not supposed to. I think that's more of what he's talking about. 'cause you wanna fill that intensity and burn. I wonder if he used rest pause technique.

I haven't researched it enough to, to see. I would imagine you'd have to at that intensity level. . We talked before about

Joe: technique. I haven't researched it enough to that you know, you hear like the marathon runners that take six months off kind of thing to let their bodies fully recover from the repetitive motions of whatever sport they're into.

Brandon: Yeah, yeah, it's probably a good idea. All right now on the scientific support notes here We've got studies have shown that training to muscle failure can produce comparable if not superior muscle hypertrophy Which means growth compared to traditional volume based training I'm sure that's the case because you're recruiting more muscle fiber You're doing more damage quicker and is but the caveat is you have to have the recovery [00:19:00] which we mentioned earlier But we have plenty of science to support

Joe: And I feel like we need to unpack, recovery just isn't, just not working out.

Brandon: I

Joe: There's work to recovering your muscles.

It's not it's not the same as rest. I worked out for a half an hour. I'll be, I'll see you at Taco Bell. I'm going to binge watch an entire season of Frasier

Brandon: No, no,

Joe: it's, it's an active rest, isn't it? If you're talking about muscle recovery,

Brandon: Yeah. And it's also eating properly.

It's getting enough water. It's maybe a glutamine protein,

Joe: Prioritizing sleep.

Brandon: Yeah. Few steroid injections here and there.

Joe: steroids.

Brandon: We're just going to keep weaving that in. But and then reducing the frequency of training allows for adequate recovery, reducing the risk of overtraining syndrome. which has been linked to decreased muscle protein synthesis and increased muscle protein breakdown.

So in other words some people train so much that they're actually continuing to break down their muscle instead of [00:20:00] building it up.

Joe: up. Yeah, I have to imagine if, if you...

Brandon: got, you got

Joe: I mean, you got, you got to remember that he took steroids, but if you just,

Brandon: Wait, did we mention that?

Joe: guy was huge. So even if he didn't take steroids, this would have worked.

I mean, if your goal is to look fit and jacked in Mr. University, it would be hard to argue with this guy's approach. He's no, I'll show you. And then he's just look, when he takes off his shirt, I don't know what you do.

Brandon: Yeah. You flex your pecs and make him do that dance thing. what he does.

Joe: But I mean, it's, it's hard to argue when it, when it works.

Brandon: Yeah. Absolutely.

Joe: I like that he made some balancing statements. You know, it wasn't just do exactly what I do. Yeah. But I feel like some of the other of that time, like Arnold, there was the Arnold method. Yeah. And it was like, do exactly this.

Yeah. But that's a lot different than this guy's

Brandon: Yeah. Now, Arnold's kind of interesting because he understood things about physiology that he couldn't verbalize.

Joe: [00:21:00] In English or just verbalized?

Brandon: no, no, he just, he, he, he couldn't articulate why, but he knew certain ways of lifting weights was safer and better on the joints like the Arnold press. That rotation clears the shoulder joint completely when you do an overhead press. And for some reason he just instinctively, intuitively knew that.

Joe: I think that was one of the things I found very interesting about that documentary. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a very intelligent man, but his grasp of the English language made him appear that he wasn't intelligent during his first couple movies. But that wasn't the case at all.

Brandon: the the Barbarian. What is best in life? Hear the lamentation of the women and crush your enemies.

Joe: in the junior, you know, classic great movies, but I think it was, I think it was lost on a lot of us who grew up without having to learn a second language that the, the way that he spoke and acted. Had so much to do with his grasp of the English language and really not a lot to do with his level of intelligence He [00:22:00] was he's a very intelligent guy and I got a kick out of the scenes in the documentary where he'd go back To Austria and he'd just feel so comfortable and he could articulate what he was saying It just must have been such a relief to be able to be like, oh, yeah, I don't have to struggle

Brandon: Yeah. Yeah. So the entire point of this episode is watch that Arnold documentary.

Joe: entire point of this episode is watch that Yeah,

Brandon: Yeah. So to kind of conclude I think there's a lot we can learn from Mike Mentzer. I'm not sure it's the right approach for everybody. But, but there's certain principles we should carry through to our training. You should be training to some discomfort, to some fatigue, to maybe muscle failure.

And if you got perfect form and all that, go for it. If you're not sure, start with a coach. But,

Joe: of people would have to, I think it's one of the things you'd have to experience to figure out what muscle failure is. Like we're not talking until it gets hard, right? We're talking about

Brandon: We're talking like it, like you have fought 30 seconds on this one rep and it's not gonna, [00:23:00] not gonna make it. That's muscle failure. Right.

Joe: They're not

Brandon: I've seen that. Yeah, that's pretty wild. You know, I will say I have one client in particular that comes to mind. I actually have to hold him back. He's former Air Force. And but he only trains once a week with me. And it's probably 38 minutes of active workout during the hour. And that's all he does.

Joe: And just,

Brandon: The amount of muscle gain, especially like in his biceps and stuff has just been insane. And it's, I, I ask him every week, what are you doing between? He's no, this is it. Just when I see you, but he really goes after it every single set and he's going to absolute muscle

Joe: muscle failure.

Again. I mean, it's hard to argue with results. Yeah.

Brandon: yeah. I mean, he looks great.

Yeah,

Joe: Appears to be. Again, if that's your main goal, I don't think this is about longevity. I don't think this is about the best thing to do ever. This Mike Mentzer approach is about how to get SWOL.

Brandon: Yeah, it's how to put on muscle as quick as possible basically. So it's an interesting technique. Feel [00:24:00] free to experiment it if you've got the base for it. And if not train with me,

Joe: and if not, learn the base. So that you cannot spend six hours a day in the gym.

Brandon: It's all about the base.

Joe: It's all about the base. What percentage, you do a lot of intakes and stuff. What percentage of people do you think it's about?

Brandon: of

Joe: and or they would might just articulate a different thing. I want to look better.

Brandon: it's about muscle gain and or they might just articulate a different I want to look better? But some not against CrossFit, but I get tons of injured CrossFit athletes that, that I ended up working with. But so my, my approach has always been about sustainability and longevity, not, not what Mike Mentzer's advocating for.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Everybody has different goals. So if you want that kind of Mike Mentzer look and body, go for it. I'm not going to hold your back.

Joe: I'm[00:25:00]

Brandon: but I think steroids are illegal now. may cause you to shoot your family like Chris Benoit, who was my favorite wrestler.

He was my favorite wrestler in the Four Horsemen, former hockey player. Do you remember Chris Benoit? Oh, he's my favorite, he's this like Canadian guy. But he ended up yeah, shooting his family, murder suicide. Yeah, bad stuff.

Joe: not the trade off. Yeah,

Brandon: so I don't think the steroids are worth it. But yeah, what did we say the whole purpose is?

Oh yeah, watch that Arnold series.

Joe: that,

[00:26:00]