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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
[00:01:00]
Marc Beckman With BB: Okay, Greg Johnson, welcome to Some Future Day. How are you today?
Greg Johnson: Good morning and terrific to be with you, Mark. Thanks for having me.
Marc Beckman With BB: Yeah, it's truly a pleasure. Incredible timing, actually, especially since we're going to dive into the world of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. Bitcoin, as you know, [00:02:00] just passed the 50, 000 threshold. Again, and it seems like these Bitcoin ETFs from BlackRock and these other entities are really having a great impact, um, raising the demand.
I think hundreds of millions of dollars are being invested and pouring into the Bitcoin ETF every day. Uh, we're looking at, you know, lower supply. I think only 40 to 45 million dollars in new supply has been created. Um, so obviously the laws of, Demand and supply are, are kicking in for those on Wall Street.
I think in fact the ETF demand is about 12 times greater than the supply. And, you know, who knows? Maybe we'll get back to that all time high and cross the $69,000 threshold. But Greg, I know you're an expert in cryptocurrency and, and bitcoin in particular. How did we even get to the concept of Bitcoin?
Like how did we even get to this point in time? What happened before? Bitcoin [00:03:00] was invented.
Greg Johnson: well, Mark, first of all, again, thank you very much for having me. I'm a huge fan of the show and I think some future day is bringing back what we really need right now, which is more long form conversation and nuanced conversation. And you've been doing a terrific job of that, aside from having, you know, Sartorial's talents and good judgment there.
You bring tech, you're bringing money, you're bringing everything to the forefront and it's a, it's a pleasure to be with you this morning. So you're right, let's, let's pull back a little bit the aperture and kind of figure out where we got here. Actually, I'm gonna take you into your own personal way back machine if I can just for a couple of minutes.
As a matter of fact, I think we need to talk about something that took place back in 1944 and it took place about 160 miles from you where you and I used a frolic about in Boston, near the campus of Boston University. There's a place in New Hampshire called Bretton Woods, not only is it where I learned to ski as a 10 year old back in the 70s, dare I say, but um, [00:04:00] it's also the place where the current story of money, power, and geopolitics really began.
You know, when World War II was still underway, And the outcome was less certain. The allies were going to win, but the timing was still unclear. One of the most important gatherings of people, of countries, of nation states took place in the summer of 1944 at the Mount Washington Inn in Bretton Woods, New Hampshire.
Now many of the stories about this gathering are filled with like it was all a kumbaya and it was an absolutely tense gathering. Of all the nation states that we're seeking to figure out, how are we going to rebuild the world? What's the future of money going to look like? And I know you're very familiar with the notion of black swan events, but think about this.
Prior to World War II, if you asked anybody that was a subject of the British [00:05:00] Empire if they could foresee a world where British pound sterling wasn't the rule of the day, they would think you were insane. In fact, if you were an American banker, an American financier, You probably couldn't see a world in which British pound sterling was not the reserve currency of the world.
And yet, in the wake of World War II, and certainly we were not alone in this, but the United States, in terms of blood and treasure, expended quite a bit. And because of our, our, our very good fortune of our, our geography, You know, borrowing from the Prisoners of Geography book, which is phenomenal, by the way.
You know, we were spared much of the carnage in our, in our lands, if you will. We were in a position where we could have a, a outsized role in rebuilding the world, but it was going to be on American terms. And it was at that particular gathering where some big things happened. The [00:06:00] U. S. emerged as becoming the de facto, uh, reserve currency for the world.
Taking a outsized role in rebuilding and some of the institutions today that we don't really think much of or enough of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund. They have some, they're a part of this Bitcoin story, by the way, that those entities were formed. at that conference in Brenton Woods, New Hampshire.
And so, we have major issues today. Major issues in banking, in finance, in the lack of equity, uh, in the world. And, and yet I think it's also important for us to kind of, you know, ground ourselves in the fact that it's not hyperbole when I say all those things are true. Yet, since Brenton Woods, we've lived in a period of unprecedented human prosperity.
Unprecedented financial ascension. We have less people [00:07:00] percentage in the world in poverty. And so while it's still true there's a lot of work that needs to get done, we've had a lot of progress since then. Yet the notions of Bitcoin being birthed when they were, you know, it's only been 15 years.
Mark, can you believe that we're talking about Bitcoin? It's only, it's only a little bit more than 15 years ago where this whole thing was born. And, and I wanna now get us into the future. Most people know that the Satoshi White Paper is what brought Bitcoin into existence. I know you and I have talked about that.
I've heard your other guests make mention of it. But I think it's really important to know that the timing of that white paper was also not by accident. The fact that it caught on eventually was not by accident. So you had not only the wake of the great financial crisis, where many of the great minds controlling big companies today, We're in the room and actually held, [00:08:00] I believe should be held responsible for the great financial crisis.
You had that taking place. And exactly at that moment in time, you had for the first time global internet network adoption. Metcalfe law level net network adoption. And you had computational power reaching a certain threshold. And you needed all of those things, in my view, to take place in order for the notions of Bitcoin to truly resonate.
And so that's a little bit of a look back at how we got here. I think it's important because as Westerners, as you and I both are, we are very privileged to look at the future of money, our portfolios, financial planning through a very Western lens. We've never lived through, in our lifetime, hyperinflation. And so when we think about Bitcoin, it is truly a [00:09:00] global phenomenon. This marriage of technology, computation, and money. The marriage of those three things. is, is something that couldn't have existed at any other time, and I think it's important to remember that. It's also important to remember that, that for many Europeans, for many people in the Western world, It's harder for us to wrap around the, the appeal of Bitcoin because we have not lived through a period of prolonged hyperinflation.
If you and I were born in Argentina, Venezuela, we would have the same artistic capabilities and expression, but because of the, the economies of those nations, Israel, Hungary, I could go on and on. Just in this century, it's more than two dozen nations that experienced hyperinflation. And that's why crypto, that's why Bitcoin, is more [00:10:00] readily adopted or readily something people are willing to experiment with than what we've seen so far.
And I know we're going to talk about this, but really the biggest moment in the history of crypto It was last month when we finally, finally had the approval by U. S. regulators for Bitcoin ETFs, and I know we're going to talk about that. So I'll pause there for a little bit and let you jump back in.
Marc Beckman With BB: Well, just going backwards, I'm curious about the psychology that plays into, um, that triumvirate to like, so during the financial crisis, if I understand correctly, you're saying that was one of the catalysts behind the innovation of Bitcoin, am I correct?
Greg Johnson: You are very correct. In fact, you know, you know, look, I was a senior executive at the time in the financial services industry, and honestly, uh, I, what led to my, my first retirement from, from a professional life was just my sense of disgust for how the industry had really lost its way.
And I don't [00:11:00] think people, uh, truly can appreciate how close we came to complete anarchy. and that really set, set in motion, how many people were willing to adopt this, this new thing called Bitcoin.
Marc Beckman With BB: So Greg, that, that discuss that you had, was that directed at Both the banking sector as well as the United States government, or was it really, or, and plus any, any other entity or, or where was that discussed really? Um, uh, pointed
Greg Johnson: was, yeah, for me, it was more personal. And my, my lens at that time, Mark, was more, more focused on the, the retail wealth management industry in the United States. And whether or not we were actually. Um, providing value to people, and I, and I think that lift, that, that event lifted the rock, so to speak, and I think we got to see as consumers what really these companies were all about, what was their ethos, and like many things, when the market rebounds, people forget about the bad times, we make the same mistakes as [00:12:00] investors that we always seem to do, we might talk about Warren Buffett later on in terms of his hypocrisy around Bitcoin, but he famously has quoted, when you have the price of You know, you know, you don't have the proof, and when you have the proof, you don't have the price, and that's the dilemma for the typical investor.
What I saw at that particular point in time, and I was feeling it over the course of 25 years, is that the industry had lost its way. The value that the financial services and banking industry was delivering to consumers, to the general citizenry, was shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And I don't blame any sovereign government, it's just the order of things.
What I blame is the governance system that I think we have lost in business in general, but especially in the financial services sector. Oh, and by the way, we did see a massive pivot. I'm not saying it was right or wrong fully at that moment. We saw a massive intervention [00:13:00] by the Federal Reserve, the central banking system, to prevent that global collapse.
So there's a lot to unpack there, but yes, that's when the psychology of many people started to get rewired. And people were open to new ideas and new notions. that in the Western world were not open to them previously, except in some very unique cases. Look, Peter Thiel was early on the notions of sovereign individual currencies for people.
But aside from Peter and a few other people, there weren't many folks that were privileged to live in a Western, stable economic system that were willing to experiment with things. So that, that, that crisis was, was critical,
Marc Beckman With BB: So that crisis caused a ton of distrust, I would imagine, um, from the industry, even looking at the government, because the government created some mechanisms where the industry, the financial sector, couldn't really control the value of what they were suggesting their [00:14:00] retail, uh, clients invest in, right?
So I, I would imagine from the industry. Towards the government, there was a little bit of distrust. And then the individual that was trusting the financial advisor to, you know, perhaps watch over, you know, his or hers life savings. Now they've, they've lost that. So they've in turn lost trust for the finance sector in general.
and we still see years later, the government. Uh, creating mechanisms, you refer to inflation. I mean, it's, it's arguably the current administration's poor policy as it relates to printing money that's caused a ton of inflation over the past three years. So, um, perhaps it's this lack of trust that created, uh, Bitcoin or, or it was certainly the impetus behind creating Bitcoin.
So, so why don't we get into like, just before we, we go too deep, like what is Bitcoin? Like what, why did that come? Uh, why did this concept, why was it born out of this moment in time?
Greg Johnson: Well, I, [00:15:00] I think you, you, you really nailed the, the, the major catalyst was a widespread global erosion of trust in the centralized institutions. If you're going to have a conversation about any type of, you know, digital asset, including Bitcoin, you know, you know, there were other attempts at digital cash and digital types of.
The Financial Instruments previously, but all of the ingredients hadn't lined up.
Marc Beckman With BB: They were all centralized too, right, Greg?
Greg Johnson: That's right. That's right. And so, so you didn't have that. And so let's, let's unpack what it, what it means. What, what, why does trust matter? Well, the fact of the matter is, is that what this computational evolution, this explosion and computation provided.
What the number of people using computer networks provided was an opportunity to take notions that were theoretical in the 60s and the 70s and the 80s and [00:16:00] actually bring them to life. It wasn't as if Satoshi came up with something entirely new. You know, we had Stuart Haber and his experiments with hashtags using classified ads in the Times.
You know, you had Nick Sabo thinking very deeply about algorithms, about what we refer to as smart contracts today. These were already notions that were well teased out in, in fine universities like NYU, MIT, I could go on and on and on. So they'd existed for a while, but you needed that crescendo of events to take place in order for it to come to life.
So the notion you first have to get to with Bitcoin is a notion of decentralization. In other words, Mark, we don't need, because of the power of computation and cryptography, We don't need somebody to verify a third party creating very little to no value like [00:17:00] perhaps we did in the past, right? Perhaps we needed that, that, uh, order, that, that, um, that centralization to provide stability.
And that's still the argument today, right? We need the order to provide stability in the world. Without it, there will be chaos and anarchy. And what Bitcoin was saying is, no, you know, the time has come. That maybe it wouldn't have worked before, but the time has come now where we can have alternatives that don't require, that do not require, uh, anyone's verification, be it a bank, be it a sovereign, whoever it might be.
And that's a fundamental piece. The other is Back in the olden days, before we had, uh, you know, fractional reserve banking, in other words, the notion of a bank creating a system where we've all seen this from It's a Wonderful Life, you know, there's a run on the bank. Banks don't have all the money that they've lent out into the system in their vault.[00:18:00]
Okay. And so when there's a run,
Marc Beckman With BB: all, we all saw bank runs a year ago.
Greg Johnson: Well, we can talk about that if you want. And that's where, that's where, that's where, um, we really figured out we, it used to be in the central banking community, they would say when there's a bank run mark, they would say, we always had the weekend. This is a very common refrain.
And so we would always have the weekend. To sort it out. And what should have been obvious in the wake of Cambridge Analytica and AI powered kind of, you know, virality and viral moments was that, you know what, with Silicon Valley Bank, which I know you're referring to, when that started collapsing, we should have realized the speed was going to be unprecedented.
The virality of it, the very notions of convenience of being able to withdraw your funds, not in a, you know, 10 a. m. to 4 p. m. cycle, 5 days a [00:19:00] week. No, you're going to be able to do it 24 7. And it was the first example of what a new bank run might look like. And so, you know, these, these notions come into play in so many different ways when you think about the tenants of Bitcoin.
Let me, let me back, back up again if
Marc Beckman With BB: Please, sorry to take
Greg Johnson: and, and no, no, no, no, because it's important actually to explore these in a very kind of organic way because they all, it's, it's not a simple concept. If you want to make it simple, we'll just make it real simple, but if you really want to dig in, these things all matter to the narrative of why and why it's important as a piece.
It's not going away. I think the one thing that I might interject here while we are digressing is that Bitcoin is not going away. With the figurative blessing that the SEC gave, right, with this Bitcoin ETF approvals for multiple participants, it basically normalized [00:20:00] the crypto industry, or a facet of it, For the very first time in the largest economy and still the most important economy in the world, that being in the United States.
And so the second and third order impacts of that are hard to even calculate, even though I know we're going to try and, you know, put some of those on the grid today during the conversation. All right, so we have notions of decentralization and lack of trust. But the other thing. That we were starting to touch on was in the past, it was a very common thing to say money was actually earned into existence. And in the wake of that Bretton Woods and that kind of British pound sterling world and fractional reserve banking that we all kind of take for granted and just go about our lives. In the wake of all of that, we got away from actually value being earned into existence. People talk about notions of gold and [00:21:00] the cost of bringing gold from the earth and earning that somewhat into existence.
And Bitcoin, it also relied on the notions that it was going to be earned. And you and I both know what that earning is. It's actually the consensus, the mechanism for how Bitcoin is brought into existence and how it is governed moving forward. And it's also a fairly controversial part of the Bitcoin story.
So in order to create Bitcoin, You actually have people participating in an ecosystem mining Bitcoin. And in the mining, I think most people that are probably tuning into this show have heard of mining before. And it's the notion of lending out your computer or your data farm in a very specific way to actually perform calculations that allow the Bitcoin system to be [00:22:00] governed in a way that is decentralized.
We talked about we needed all this computational power, we needed all of these computers before. And the reason for that is in order to have a decentralized system, you need millions of people participating, not only just to buy into the notion of its value, but also for it to be created. And the way that Bitcoin is created is by having multiple participants take part in solving equations, extremely complicated equations that create value once you solve the equation.
And again, I'm not sure how deep we want to go, but that's the earning into existence. It's called the proof of work consensus.
Marc Beckman With BB: So Greg,
Greg Johnson: you'd have to,
yeah,
part
Marc Beckman With BB: just want to slow down for a second, because for those of our, for those guests, I mean, for those, um, in the audience that aren't familiar with, with this [00:23:00] concept, how would it work in regards to, if we like, if we were Kind of like dumb it down into like, you know, regular world terms.
Like let's say Bitcoin is set up at a grocery store for, uh, to receive payments. And I go in and I purchase, um, you know, some eggs and some milk and some water, whatever it is that I get. And I want to use Bitcoin for that transaction. Is that when this decentralized mechanism with regards to Bitcoin mining and everything else that you're describing kicks in?
Greg Johnson: of it kicks in there, Mark. That's a great pivot, to be honest with you. Part of it kicks in then. And really what's kicking in at that time, when you're actually having a transaction taking place, is the broader network validating what's going on in that transaction. In terms of creating a new Bitcoin, that's the mining process, if you will, that consensus that we talk about.
That's actually a very controversial Uh, a notion right [00:24:00] now, most people that don't even understand anything about Bitcoin, and by the way, um, you know, you know, no one has the market cornered on full expertise regarding something as novel and new, because I think with this new type of, of transfer of value, this new economy, this new currency that we're talking about, we still are in the unknown unknowns in some dimensions.
But what one thing that is, that is, uh, uh, uh, I think on the minds of many people, even if they don't own Bitcoin directly, they may actually, they may own it without knowing that they own it, which we can come back to. But, but interestingly enough, one of the things most people have heard of. is that the Bitcoin model has been under attack from many, many different circles.
But one of the things that people attack about this new, this new form of money, if you will, is that it's, it's environmentally toxic. That this, [00:25:00] the very way that it has come into existence, by using computation and electricity, To generate and to manage the network actually is damaging and contributing to horrific climate, outcomes.
And it brings up a lot of important questions. And yes, it does consume vast amounts of electricity.
Marc Beckman With BB: but, how much, Greg, like, like, what if we just compare it straight against the banking sector, like, doesn't, isn't there like federal and state regulation that requires the banking sector to use a ton of electricity?
Greg Johnson: well, you're, you're, you're, you're sounding, you're using too much common sense right now, Mark. I think the, from a libertarian perspective, I think you have to ask the question, who gets to determine what is and what is not the noble use of electricity? You know, uh, uh, when you think
about,
Marc Beckman With BB: We don't really get too deep into that. I haven't seen any conversations, frankly, about that.
Greg Johnson: well, we'll think about this. Think about this. [00:26:00] I mean, you and I, you know, we, we're frolicking around New York on a frequent basis, right? I love the holiday season, the Judeo Christian holiday season. The lights are everywhere in New York. The amount of energy consumed for things like that is staggering.
The other, the other thing with regard to the criticism of Bitcoin because of its electricity consumption that is often overlooked is comparing it, like you were, to other industry. Like, unfortunately, the fashion industry is one of the most wasteful industries on so many dimensions, but especially with electricity.
And, oh, by the way, I'm not sure if you've heard of this thing called artificial intelligence. It's become a thing and, uh, it's having its Andy Warhol moment. Right? And so, are they training these large language models, Mark? And I know these are rhetorical questions to you, but the answer is they're training them using what?
Very specialized servers that are, that are training these large language models. They are consuming [00:27:00] far more electricity. Then the global Bitcoin mining and administration consumes.
so, it's all about
the framing.
Marc Beckman With BB: but Greg, um, just, just to break it down though, are certain sectors, including the banking sector, do you know if they're using more electricity than, you know, the amount of electricity that goes into Bitcoin mining specifically?
Greg Johnson: In totality, they absolutely are.
But, but
it's, but it comes down to what people think is a worthwhile expenditure of this. And then, I know we don't have time to get into it very deeply, but I think you could make a very compelling argument. That the, the, the people, the entrepreneurs and the most of them, the vast majority of them in the Bitcoin industry and mining industry are very socially conscious.
And in fact have been working tirelessly to create innovation that actually captures wasteful energy expense. [00:28:00] Um, you know many people don't realize how much erosion to the climate is done through flared gas in the natural gas industry. And many in the Bitcoin mining industry have found a way to kill two birds with one stone, creating solutions that capture that gas that is being burned into the atmosphere and using it to mine Bitcoin.
Marc Beckman With BB: Is that a US based company?
Greg Johnson: There are multiple companies, Mark, that are actually involved in it. And what a surprise, some of the biggest energy companies in the world, the mobiles, the chevrons, etc, etc, the BPs, are all looking at the innovation coming from Bitcoin miners. As a way that they can fulfill their ESG mandates as megacorporations, but also to turn profit by mining Bitcoin.
So it's, it's amazing. Hypocrisies are, are what makes this conversation to me so interesting. And why I've spent so much time focused on
Marc Beckman With BB: Greg, just going back a little bit, I know like we're going to keep on going off on tangents and all, but I, [00:29:00] to your point, I think it's important. I think it's important that we bring the, um, the audience together, bring them along with us. I often say this. the notion of centralization versus decentralization or centralized power versus decentralization. Decentralized power is really important here. I know you've touched on it several times, but when you talk about centralized power, you're talking about, organization, perhaps a corporation that has a board of directors that's run by a chief executive officer and other strategic, um, um, You know, uh, C suite level executives with, you know, teams below taking their guidance and centralized as it relates to government here in the United States.
We have the executive branch as well as Congress and the judicial branch. And that comes across as, you know, fairly centralized, right? So when you talk about a decentralized entity, like. Bitcoin. Is there no leadership at the helm? Who's making the decisions? Like Who's creating the marketing campaign to get Bitcoin back over the 50, 000 thresholds? [00:30:00] Who is in charge of Bitcoin's ESG policy to make sure that they're applying, um, renewable energy as you just described to, uh, lessen its footprint on, on the planet.
Greg Johnson: Well, you know, what you're, what you're describing in many ways, Mark, brings us back to some of the earliest forms of human cooperation. Many of the largest brands in the world are cooperative businesses. They have a cooperative model where people get together as communities. Uh, sometimes very tribal, sometimes very global.
They work together for a common cause. So I, I think the notion of decentralization when it comes to Bitcoin, it is a global movement. It's not just one nation, one particular nation state, uh, being involved or, or, or going to make, make those determinations. When, when you talk about the notions of you, you bring up also something very important.
And I wanna be very clear if I, I should have done this earlier. I am not a crypto or [00:31:00] a Bitcoin maximalist. I'm a realist and I see Bitcoin as in many ways the normal progression or evolution of money fused and married with technology. Blockchain, the technology that, that underpins all of the cryptocurrency talk people have heard about in one depth or another, is the natural evolution of accounting.
And keeping track of records that goes back as far as the Babylonians, uh, in ancient Iraq, if you will, keeping track on stone ledgers. And then we have notions of double entry accounting systems coming out of the Renaissance with drinking buddies of Leonardo da Vinci. And then we see Bitcoin really being nothing more than the natural evolution of accounting software.
Or that horrific high school accounting experience many of us were traumatized by. Blockchain is [00:32:00] nothing more than the evolution of keeping track of who and what and where exchanges took place. So you teed up decentralization. I mentioned before I think we're still in an unknown unknown with both Bitcoin as well as the entire digital asset industry.
The notion of who governs this This brings up something called DAOs, right? These Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, if you will. And they are responsible for governance. The critics of Bitcoin, of which there are many, point out that you talk about this decentralized all the time, Bitcoin people. And yet, there are many examples where you have large whales, or, you know, large investors that own a ton of Bitcoin, and have a De facto centralized type of influence on what happens with the price, what happens with the governance, etc, [00:33:00] etc.
I think people need to realize that it's only, again, 15 years. Mark, when we think about Bitcoin coming in, Bitcoin isn't disrupting like a legacy incumbent. You know, I don't want to get too stern business school on us here or, you know, Porter's five forces of strategic, you know, modeling, but the reality is you're trying, you're talking about Bitcoin in 15 years has created more disruption than the previous 15 centuries to the banking industry.
I'm, I'm barely using hyperbole here. You know, banking and financial services isn't An old profession. It's the oldest profession. Okay. So, so this is one of the legitimate criticisms that the industry itself to do a better job of managing moving forward.
Marc Beckman With BB: So, Greg, beyond, beyond the issue of [00:34:00] energy, decentralization creates some concerns too. Like, for example, how do we know that more Bitcoin won't be created? Like, how is that, how is the supply of Bitcoin controlled?
Greg Johnson: Well, one of the things that you're, and I know you you're teeing this up and it's a really good question. The one thing that I think for many people like myself in the, that come from a traditional financial services background. Really started to appreciate about the Bitcoin model and say, Hey, look.
There's something there, there, was what you just brought up, Mark, is that unlike many, many other entities where you can keep on printing more, you can just make it up, much like the central banks have done. That's a separate podcast, right? That's a separate discussion about why at certain times that might be a good thing for stability.
At the end of the day, Bitcoin will be a scarce commodity where no [00:35:00] additional Bitcoin. Bitcoin is going to be mined. Built into the entire code of Bitcoin is its scarcity. And depending on who you talk to, our ability to have more and more sophisticated, you know, ASIC Bitcoin mining technology. We're going to run out of Bitcoin.
The last Bitcoin. Bitcoin is going to be mined in about 20 years from now. And so it is a finite supply. Arguably, it's often compared, Bitcoin that is, to instead of being a, something we transact with for daily goods and services, it has become in recent years, more aptly described as being digital gold.
Having a store of value component to it.
Marc Beckman With BB: when you talk about this digital gold, which I love, um, how safe and how secure is my digital gold? Like, for example, in certain countries throughout the [00:36:00] world, the, the value of their currency is susceptible to, um, poor government policy or poor governmental decisions.
In, in other regions, uh, the value of their, Fiat currency inflates exponentially because of corruption. So in this instance, how do I know that Bitcoin, the digital gold, is safe and secure?
Greg Johnson: Well, you bring up the notion that is the one thing people forget about concepts of money. You mentioned the word fiat money for everybody. When we talk about fiat money, you're talking about a nation state's currency. A dollar, a peso, a euro, a yen. You want whatever. And so when you think about that, they all have the same properties, Mark.
For in order for there to be a fiat currency, okay, you need to have, it has to have store of value. It has to be a medium of exchange. It has to be a unit of account. And also, most importantly, [00:37:00] more important, I would argue, than anything else, it has to have a social contract where people actually, actually believe That this is legit.
The system works. And what you're describing, you know, we just went through a period where Bitcoin went from a high of 69, 000 of Bitcoin to going through the crisis during the most recent, what they call, crypto winter. And the value fell in an incredible level. To the Western lens. If you grew up in Argentina, and I pick on them because they're in the news a lot lately because of what they're trying to do, again, to stabilize their fiat money.
The people living there have lived with that type of volatility to the question you asked, how safe is my, how stable is my Bitcoin? You could, if you're asking an Argentinian, they would say, it's more stable than our money, man, right? And I think that's where this notion [00:38:00] of what Western ideals of stability.
And what is value, I think, coming to play. Mark, can you indulge me for a second? This might help a lot of people who still can't wrap around Bitcoin a little bit. Can I explain something? Can I try another way of, uh, kind of bringing this to, you made me think of something.
And the way that I explain Bitcoin to a lot of Western minded people, especially those that have done well in the financial world, that have, have been the beneficiary of the, the stock market with this unprecedented run that we've had since the 90s.
And I say to them, you, if you're a skeptic of Bitcoin, I don't blame you because we're very spoiled having a US lens. And I say to them, it's a natural sentiment to have, but if you did live in one of those many other countries we've already talked about, your view of kind of stability is very different.
And Mark, I'll say to people in a group setting or if I'm doing a town hall or speaking at a forum, I'll say for many of you that [00:39:00] don't buy into Bitcoin and you don't understand how it can be of value if the government isn't backing it up, I say to them, you know what, Mark, I'm willing to bet you participate in a digital currency.
Like system without even knowing it and they say no, I know I'm not and I'll say to them Well, is anybody here in the room an American Express card member somebody puts up their hand and I'll say well when you spend Do you get anything you like when you spend eventually somebody says I get points Membership reward points.
And I'll say, Mark, do you like the points? Yes, I do. Do you ever use the points? Yes, I do. I say, great, so you use them, you like them, you've had them for a while, yes. Do you get a statement that shows how many are on there? Really? And so I say to them, well, where are your points? Are they in the studio with you today, Mark?
Are they back at your flat? Are they, are they in the, uh, you know, it's, I'm in Georgia today. Are they in your gun safe? I mean, you know, where do you keep all these American Express? You mean you've never touched them? [00:40:00] So, you have medium of exchange, store of value, unit of account. And the only thing that's keeping this system working is all the American Express card members buy into it so the board at American Express wouldn't dare blowing it up.
Okay? That's the social contract. I did not say American Express points are Bitcoin. What I'm saying is we are transacting. We are using digital currency systems. Without thinking of them as cryptographic systems.
Marc Beckman With BB: There's
Greg Johnson: And I think
that's a kind of, that's kind of a gateway into how to think and explore these topics on your own.
So, there are a lot of parallels though.
Marc Beckman With BB: There, there are,
Greg Johnson: Yeah.
Marc Beckman With BB: yeah, there are for sure. Um, I know you're going to get into hotels and airlines. I'm sorry to, to interrupt you, Greg. And, you know, I think part of it that's interesting is, um, you know, how much control you have over those points too. So for example, when you [00:41:00] mention airlines and hotels, what happens just, you know, to throw it out there for the audience?
Like I have a ton of points from, you know, I travel quite a bit all over the world and God forbid, if I pass away today, does my next of kin. Take my, um, the, all the points that I've compiled from Delta and American Airlines.
Greg Johnson: Well, I swear, we did not talk about this before the conversation that we're having this morning. But the answer is, I use that in my example when I have more time to do it. I talk about how the fact that depending on what state you live in, those points are probatable because they have value. You know what I mean?
So, so, yes, depending on what state and jurisdiction you live in, what country. Yeah, people fight about those. People get divorced over points. I can't even tell you, having worked at American Express, full disclosure, for, you know, almost 25 years, you know, I have a very intimate understanding of that, that ecosystem, if you will.
And, um, there is something to be learned. And in that example, the [00:42:00] American Express executive and board, they are the central bank of that currency system. They get to determine whether or not there's inflation or incentivization to use the points using their own tools.
Marc Beckman With BB: Very interesting.
Greg Johnson: So again, I think there are some parallels, I want to be very clear.
Point systems are not Bitcoin, but if you want to understand kind of the notions of how do we move from just government money To other forms, that's an important step in the process that more people can learn.
Marc Beckman With BB: I think the perception of value as it relates to a digital asset shifts quite considerably from a generational perspective. Like, for example, right, the younger generation, let's think in terms of Gen Z and soon to be Gen Alpha are existing Predominantly in the digital realm and therefore in turn, one may surmise that their valuation of a digital asset is far greater [00:43:00] than someone in our generation and older.
So that doesn't that also, lend a signal towards the fact that Bitcoin and other forms of cryptocurrency, other forms of digital assets that are secure on the blockchain, will be, uh, ubiquitous for in generations to come.
Greg Johnson: yeah, I, I, I believe you're 100 percent right with that assertion, Mark. And I, I think we don't have to look very far to see, you know, where people are participating in these, you know, again, take the word crypto out of this. And by the way, I think if it were not for all of the shenanigans that the crypto industry has brought upon itself. have undermined the incredible technologists that have undermined the ethos of these, of these, many of these projects, the utility of these projects, we'd be further along, but the industry has done a horrible job of policing itself, the technology has been rushed to launch like many other Uh, technological innovations, and it's not delivered the way that it could.
I [00:44:00] think it's important to also remember we're in the early stages. We, we, I don't even know if, I don't even know if we're infants, and we may be prenatal still,
Marc Beckman With BB: Well, Greg, that's, you know, it's an interesting point. If you look also at, um, I guess this is a generational thing. Like a lot of people that are, again, our age and older think for some reason, they look at the technology and they're like, I am not ready for a radical transformation of my assets, my bank account, the way I'm spending money, et cetera.
And for some reason they throw this concept out of. allowing for Bitcoin to be part of their money ecosystem. So can you explain perhaps like where, like for, uh, for like today, where does Bitcoin fall in? Like, do I need to get rid of all of my US dollar, all of my fiat currency and exchange that for a Bitcoin?
Or is it, do you just see it as part of this payment type of monetary ecosystem currently?
Greg Johnson: we're all going to be living in, here's my big prediction, and it's not, and it [00:45:00] comes into play I think quicker than a lot of people realize, is Bitcoin will be one of a basket of currencies that both people and institutions have to become comfortable using in their daily life. So, when I think about the Bitcoin ETF approvals we talked about at the onset of the conversation, to me it's not about, you know, assets under management and now investors are going to be able to invest in it.
What we're actually seeing largely, eventually this will change, but largely what we've seen so far is cannibalization from one alternative asset class at a, at an investment company to a Bitcoin ETF. The floodgates of new money coming into Bitcoin or the ecosystem
Marc Beckman With BB: Literally hundreds of millions of dollars a day, literally.
Greg Johnson: yeah, literally. And, and, and you're finding it though, [00:46:00] it's pent up demand.
I think we're at an all time in the hype cycle as a result of this Bitcoin ETF approval again. And, um, the, the, the reality is though, Mark, um, the bigger story is what it's going to, what impact this is going to have on the question you asked. So what a lot of people don't realize is companies manage their own investment portfolios just like households do.
And in fact, in some cases, and I'm not talking about micro strategy, they, they're a company that has become very well known as being a company that went from being just a tech company To being a Bitcoin holding company on purpose, by design, they changed their entire ethos because of the Bitcoin movement.
Now I'm not talking about that. What I'm saying is there are other very, many of the, many of the companies that advertised In the, and I know you're a, you're a good Madison Avenue ad guy, you're a sucker for a good ad like [00:47:00] I am, and the creativity involved, many of those companies that were advertising during the Super Bowl recently are companies that have, make more money in certain years from their investment portfolio verticals, and so the, the, the future world is that instead of it just being a handful of Fortune 500 companies that have Bitcoin or stablecoins, which we don't have time to talk about, but in the, in the new world, if you will, on their books, on their treasury books, is going to go from just a rounding error to being ubiquitous.
You mentioned the word ubiquitous before. Every single company will own what we refer to as crypto or digital. Assets today, and Bitcoin will absolutely be on those balance sheets.
Marc Beckman With BB: Greg, what about governmental entities in the United States [00:48:00] specifically? Are you seeing any investment from, you know, federal, state, local level into Bitcoin specifically? very
Greg Johnson: you know, one of the things, Mark, that we in the United States need to wrap around is that, um, you are seeing Behind the scenes, tacit admission, quiet admission that things are changing. And I would say that we are, at the federal level, caught flat footed. At the state level, more and more states are seeing how the future involves this basket of currencies that you have to become fluent in.
And so, yes, it actually does. It just makes sense for municipalities in some cases to have a member of their elected board at the city level. And I know you're very involved in some of the smart city technologies that are out [00:49:00] there and so forth. These are all going to be intertwined. And as a matter of fact, something that I lecture about at NYU a lot with my students is not only the demand for critical thinking, But we're at a moment in time where it's not just the nexus between one or two things, but an infinite nexus that we have to get very comfortable with operating in.
Oh, by the way, the, the, the, that same Fortune 500 company's treasury department. is going to have to operate the way a grandmother in Buenos Aires has operated for 20 years. Meaning she is very comfortable realizing that in some cases I'm going to use Argentinian pesos for a purchase. For other items, I'm going to use a US dollar.
For other things, I'm going to use the black market, I'm going to use the blue market, you name it. They are much more adept as consumers than we are, because they have to be. And that's the kind of [00:50:00] disruption that we're about to see unleashed. I
Marc Beckman With BB: Well, well, Greg, when, when you talk about Argentina, it's interesting because it, it kind of triggers, um, a global, um, Uh, concept for me, which, uh, I guess roots back into the idea of a central bank digital currency, and how perhaps, um, a central bank digital currency can adversely impact an individual's rights.
So, on the one side, we might have this concept of post trust. I don't trust the banking sector. I don't trust my government. I want to fully control my currency, and therefore, I'm going to own Bitcoin, but on the flip side, you see governments stepping in today. In fact, uh, China has done so already and, and they've created a, a CBDC.
And I know that there's some talk of this in the United States Congress. And I'm wondering, um, again, it might not be your, your personal opinion, but is it, what is a central bank digital currency? And, and, [00:51:00] um, how can that be bad for an individual's liberty?
Greg Johnson: love, I love how you weave this nexus together, Mark. That's what I, I said at the beginning. I, you're one of the few thought leaders out there that's able to, to, to literally weave all of these things together in such a, An elegant way. Um,
Marc Beckman With BB: Thanks. I know, I know I paid you a lot to say that. So
Greg Johnson: I'm getting nothing from you to say that you've earned it and I might have you buy me a drink, might have you buy me a drink.
Marc Beckman With BB: don't know, people don't know what it is though. Right, Greg.
Greg Johnson: Well, well, let's,
Marc Beckman With BB: going back, like, what is like, what is the central bank digital currency and how can this be terrible for an individual's freedoms? very
Greg Johnson: me, let me go, go backwards a little bit. When, when Mark, when you're talking about central bank digital currencies are nothing more than, you know, what I, what I can, again, what I love about what Bitcoin did is it, is it, it brought out [00:52:00] all these incredible hypocrisies.
What Bitcoin needed was central institutions, the antithesis of how it was born, a decentralized peer to peer cash system, right? Um, required the launch of centralized adoption for it to truly take root, to truly scale. Ironically, it needed the endorsement of centralized institutions. And it also unleashed blockchain technology to the mainstream.
It unleashed many different things. So, believe it or not, the notion of a central bank digital currency The, the catalyst for this discussion was actually the ultimate decentralized currency. And so when you, when you, when you do open source anything, you know, you can't control necessarily what happens with what people do with the original idea.
And so in part, [00:53:00] centralized digital, uh, central bank digital currencies are a part of that. Full disclosure, I'm on the board of something called the Digital Dollar Project, which looks at examining the subject of CBDCs. Primarily through American principles of money and, and privacy and many other notions.
So I spend a lot of time on this subject. For, for, let me just, let me just offer one thing. Um, I think what you're going to see with, uh, this is again one of those predictions. I think what we're going to see in the not too distant future is virtually every nation state having a central, uh, a central bank digital currency.
And Mark, here's some data from the Atlantic Council's Geoeconomic Center for you. Before the start of war between Russia and Ukraine, when Russia invaded Ukraine, prior to that, prior to that, you had less than 40 nations. Actually experimenting, [00:54:00] as you were talking about, with a form of government central bank digital currency, CBDC.
After the war began, the number is now over 130 nations are actively experimenting. And the reason for that is the, the, the sanctions that were in the wake of the invasion made all the other nation states rethink who they wanted to align with and whether or not they wanted to be at the mercy of the Western financial powers, uh, and whatever policies that they made.
Marc Beckman With BB: So Greg, what you're really describing then is the international community being afraid of the United States weaponizing the swift payment system, and as a result, they're saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, we want to be, to a certain extent, decentralized away from the United States of America,
Greg Johnson: That's right.
Marc Beckman With BB: right? And you saw that really accelerate, I think, now we see these relationships [00:55:00] with Russia and China and perhaps India, like you It's a long, it's a, it's a, it's a really interesting, fun conversation, but it's a long one. But so let me go back on a couple of key bullet
Greg Johnson: points.
Marc Beckman With BB: let's stay focused though on the United States.
Greg Johnson: so on the U. S., we tend to look at things very differently than the Europeans. So, Mark, the Europeans actually have taken the lead on regulation, uh, on big tech.
The U. S. kind of abdicated the throne. of always being a rule maker. In the past, when it came to technology and innovation, and what we saw in the Web2 world at the turn of the century, we saw the European Union actually take the lead. European, not everybody obviously, but European sentiment is we trust the government more than we trust corporations.
In the United States, flip it around. [00:56:00] The United States, we have very libertarian sensibilities about privacy, and we tend to trust big government less. I'm not so sure which is, which is the right way to go on this, but, but this is the, this is what I argue to many of my colleagues all the time that are working on thought leadership papers and pilots and programs on this topic.
I say, you are right to say we need to be very concerned about protecting privacy in the United States. When it comes to government money, we do. The problem that I see is that we're having a conversation that sounds like it's pre 2005 and the introduction of this thing before smartphones. And I don't think most Americans realize how much of their privacy that they've ceded away already.
I don't think Americans realize [00:57:00] just how much they gave away when they decided to download the app to be geotracked, to have access to all of their contacts, and we do this without even thinking about
Marc Beckman With BB: I agree with you, Greg, but I think we just saw Congress, um, you know, in the past two years, stand up and basically say like, yes, we want to, um, evaluate your private sector banking transactions. If it crosses a, you know, a minimum threshold, I don't remember the amount of money. What was it
Greg Johnson: Yeah, a few hundred bucks, right?
Marc Beckman With BB: Um, so the government, the government is saying to, uh, the American public, like, we're going to go in and invade your privacy anyway. So I think the privacy issue is like one threshold. And I agree with you, your, your data is captured hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands and thousands of a time a day. Um, just walking down the street here in Manhattan, people are capturing my data all day long.
I get that. But, What about going to the next step where it's like, one thing, the government looks at, um, a [00:58:00] transaction that I, that I might make with Bank of America, but what if they don't like the type of transaction I'm making? What if it doesn't fit within, you know, the policy that they're pushing down upon the public?
You know, for example, we want to transition everyone away from, um, cars that are powered through the use of, um, gasoline, oil, and move them into electricity. But perhaps we're going to ration out the electricity because the power grid isn't strong enough. So if there's a central bank digital currency, can they click the tab off and limit my access to the electricity to power the car, because I already had my ration to mount for the day.
Doesn't the technology allow for that?
Greg Johnson: it does. I mean, I think what we're finding is the technology is to the point where we could have, it's already invasive and pervasive, Mark. So the question is, you're asking, you're asking all the right questions. Here's the difference, though. In the past, um, all the private [00:59:00] sector's involvement With fiat monies of nation states was we need to get a good engraver and, uh, we need to get a paper company so that we can source the paper to print it out or to mint the coin and have an engraver in, in order to, uh, have this new kind of central bank digital currency, it requires a collaboration and partnership with the private sector unlike ever before.
And so, just like with many other things, the technology could actually be used to both. Uh, suit, surveil, but the technology could actually be used to keep in check the regulators and the government in a way that we could never imagine before.
So there's almost,
Marc Beckman With BB: contracts.
Greg Johnson: correct, correct. So there's a detente that could be engineered.
By the way, in the U. S., we're so far behind. On the conversation of a central bank digital currency. The other thing for Americans to realize this is purely from an American lens, is that [01:00:00] like it or not, we are going to be impacted by the advent of other nations using CBDs. So for example. The Chinese are already on the podium of CBDC Olympics.
They're already waiting for somebody else to join them. And interestingly enough, three years ago, if you asked most industry observers or people that follow this topic closely, who the next big economic entity, no disrespect for tinier economies. that are already doing CBDC piloting, the reality is nobody would have said the EU.
Well, guess what? The EU is very, very close. To actually having a central bank digital currency in pilot form, that was something that nobody would have expected. And that has to do with this growing separation and lack of cooperation between [01:01:00] the EU and the US. It's playing out in the headlines in the political cycle lately as well, but these do have implications.
In other words, if China is insisting with all of its Belt and Road collaborating partners, if you will, that they can only use Chinese CBDC, It's a game changer.
And that's of
Marc Beckman With BB: That's pretty, that's predictable, huh, Greg? I think what you're implying is predictable, for sure,
Greg Johnson: you know, Mark, one other thing, it's important to realize, like with AI, we're going to see AI evolve and take on the personality of the nation states where it's being leveraged to a large extent.
Marc Beckman With BB: for
Greg Johnson: You're going to find in CBDCs, the same type of geopolitical personality that the nation state has. Yep.
That's right.
Marc Beckman With BB: right? Centralized. All right, so, Greg, let's, um, let's talk about my Aunt Barbara for a minute. My Aunt Barbara is, [01:02:00] you know, 80 years old, fantastic woman, um, has worked her entire life, has a small savings, um, and, um, you And she listens to Some Future Day all the time and she wants to invest in Bitcoin.
So what would you suggest for, um, you know, the average person that is curious and, and wants to put a little bit about a little bit about a little bit of their savings into Bitcoin now, how do they do it? What would you recommend? Um, perhaps like a good place to research, learn about it. How to get started is, is BlackRock's ETF the way to go?
What would you suggest for like. The average person that wants to dip their toe in the, into the, the Bitcoin world.
Greg Johnson: Well, it's a great, it's a great question, Mark. I think, yeah, the, the gateway drug, if you will, into Bitcoin today, for most American investors, is now going to be the ETF options that are out there. And there are multiple options. Ironically, these are some of the least expensive [01:03:00] options for you to get, quote, exposure to Bitcoin in your portfolio.
I do not recommend, I am not a maximalist, I'm not giving financial advice today, but just use common sense. Or to borrow from our good friend, uh, uh, Mr. Greenspan, the former, the former Fed head, he used to talk about irrational exuberance. We should have rational exuberance about all these new digital assets, including Bitcoin and Bitcoin ETFs.
So I think certainly for someone like Aunt Barbara, I would say given her age and you use that scenario, it should only be a very, very small rounding error in her portfolio. just because it's Bitcoin or digital assets, it doesn't mean the same common sense approach to investing changes, okay? It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, so if you're younger, and you're already more comfortable with volatility, you can afford to have much more of your [01:04:00] portfolio, because you have a longer time horizon, you can absorb the volatility and the risk, etc.,
etc.
Marc Beckman With BB: So Greg, the, the bit, the Bitcoin ETF sounds like it's innately hypocritical to me in that you're talking about a decentralized cryptocurrency. Bitcoin with a centralized ETF, BlackRock, and I'm just going to put that out there. I'm not even asking you to remark it, but I do want to, um, bring back something you said earlier, which was, um, you, you spoke to Warren Buffett being hypocritical.
So as it relates to Bitcoin, as it relates to Bitcoin. So I'd love just for you to tell me why and how is Warren Buffett hypocritical as it relates to Bitcoin? Interesting.
Greg Johnson: wildly, I'm being, I'm being very generous here when I say he's a hypocrite. Um, and, you know, look, the Oracle of Omaha deserves where he sits in terms of the, you know, the Mount Rushmore, if you will, of American investing legends. But the reality is he's one of the [01:05:00] most vocal critics, critics of crypto, um, famously having said, you know, I wouldn't give you 25 for all the crypto in the world.
And if you want an example of either his hypocrisy or that of his investment review board at, at, um, Berkshire Hathaway. In 2021, Mark. They made not one, but two large investments. Well, maybe not large for them, but large for the, for the conversation. A totaling almost 1. 3 billion at the time of US dollars into a little known Brazilian bank.
Something called a neo bank, a new bank, if you will. Called, literally, New Bank. And that in and of itself is no big deal. The, the problem where the hypocrisy comes into play is that Nubank is also the largest crypto business in South America, a region of the world where there's much higher adoption and fluency and comfort with using crypto products [01:06:00] than virtually anywhere else in the world.
And so, You know, uh, so you wouldn't give 25 for all the crypto in the world, but you did pay 1. 2 billion for a 40 percent stake, for a stake in a company that has a massive crypto portfolio. It just screams of hypocrisy. And, and again, um, much of it is about, remember, Bitcoin is trying to disrupt the oldest profession in the world.
And so what you see by many of these institutions is a changing of the tune. They sound, these CEOs sound like politicians, flipping, if you will, on issues. BlackRock, for example,
Marc Beckman With BB: Greg, do you think the, um, right, I think at some, no, Jamie Dimon's been pretty consistent against, um, against Bitcoin, right, and cryptocurrency,
Greg Johnson: he has, but Jamie's also, first of all, Jamie, and I thank the Diamond family for all of their generosity towards NYU. But, but the reality is, you know, while he's, he's [01:07:00] personal views are well documented. The bank itself has made massive investments into crypto and blockchain related technologies. They are one of the world's leaders in tokenization, which, again, is a cousin of cryptocurrency.
Not a, not, but the notion of, okay, they, they, they are running, in essence, a, a digital twin in their onyx. Uh, a venture for what the new financial world might look like. So again, he's been very consistent with his personal remarks, yet the company that he presides over has been one of the largest investors in the broader blockchain and digital asset ecosystem.
Marc Beckman With BB: Greg, one of the reasons that regulation in the United States is proving to be important is to keep venture capital and investment within our border, within the United States, and to keep the qualified [01:08:00] individuals on the tech side to keep the jobs here in the United States. So. You know, this has been such an issue.
Like we've, we've seen all kinds of issues as it relates to, to landing on a proper regulatory scheme in, in, you know, our United States Congress, at the state level. Do you think that our government is capable of fully understanding this technology and regulating? It's
Greg Johnson: Not, not yet, but in fairness, I don't know that our, our elected officials are capable of understanding the full nuance. of AI or other really important issues that they have a role to play in, be it quantum computing, uh, or many other topics, Mark. What I, what I, what I do think is that I, I think they can be better educated on the implications of failed U.
S. leadership in this new, this brave new world, with apologies to Huxley, right? I, I do think, I do think, I do think they can be much better educated, and some of them are, but we're in an [01:09:00] election year. And this is where American, uh, political realities are going to have an outsized impact on American economic realities, because we are falling behind.
It's still the best place to come as an entrepreneur, but I can speak from my own experience as a, as, as building a startup in the asset management space. I have a pristine track record from compliance. I've run very large, uh, elements of a Fortune 50 companies organization. You know, I've got a tremendous, uh, experience in the domain, and yet we found it impossible to operate working directly with investors.
Because of this regulatory goulash in the United States. And by goulash, I don't mean a really good goulash Aunt Barbara might be able to whip up. I'm talking about a really unsavory goulash and, and in fact, for the first time since before the Investment Act of 1940, [01:10:00] individual states are making stuff up as they go.
So we're, we're finding that individual states, actually some of them really get it. Wyoming has really understood the power
of, of what's going on Dow, as you had mentioned earlier, I mean, you and I could go for, you know, two more episodes here, but I think
god, yes, an incredible job for sure.
yes. And I know you work, I know you don't tout this, but you have a, you have a incredible legal mind as well from your background many, many moons ago.
And so you look through that lens often when you're discussing these topics. And so when you do that, um, you, you understand what the implications are. I think you're, you know, more than the average member of the, the general citizenry does. But this is having a profound effect on. Uh, not just our, our venture, uh, for sure, but you take that out, unlike the dot com disaster, the, both the gain and the, and the implosion, there were many, many, many brands that [01:11:00] survived and contributed either as an acquisition by another bigger firm and contributed meaningfully.
But you are not seeing as many novel crypto ventures. What you are seeing is many more incumbents winning in this new world order. Another one of those ironies and, uh, that many people did not expect to have.
Marc Beckman With BB: I think it's becoming difficult for entrepreneurs, um, to get over that threshold of regulation, licensing fees, um, and, and competition. I, I think actually to a certain extent, we've seen a lot of the innovation in the United States move overseas to places like Asia and Europe so that they can have a better chance to compete rather than getting over.
You know, all the licensing requirements now and in every state in the United States, plus the federal government and beyond. I think it's interesting, um, to look at, to evaluate, like, whether or not [01:12:00] our government is really open to the idea of, um, learning with the private sector and even regulating properly with the private sector, with the experts.
I got a kick out of, I don't know, I'm sure, I imagine you saw that amazing Super Bowl. Um, which was incredible after shortly after the Superbowl, uh, President Biden's Twitter account, um, posted an image of him, Greg, you're saying you saw this, like they posted an image of him of that iconic Bitcoin red laser eye.
And I am convinced so many people came to me and they were like, did you see this? Did you see this? And I'm absolutely convinced that they had no idea that they were posting a signal to the Bitcoin community. Um, just for fun. Do you, do you agree?
Greg Johnson: I, I do, and I, and I, and I do think this is where in any other, we are still in the early innings. We are in the early stages, Mark. And so, so I think that's why the caution for investors still needs to be there because there are the type of things that have historically [01:13:00] swung the performance of other investments that we're already comfortable with and have been around for a while are going to have an even more of a, of an impact and swinging.
Uh, in this new world for a short period of
time,
Marc Beckman With BB: a sign that they just don't have, um, you know, the fact that they don't have their finger on pop culture, um, Bitcoin pop culture for so long, yet they're trying to regulate it. It's, you know, it's kind of alarming. Greg, we have a tradition on this show, which you might be familiar with.
Um. You know, it's, it's kind of fun. What I like to do is I open up and ask my guest to finish the sentence and it always includes the title of our show. So, I'd like you to take a stab at it today, please. Um, in some future day, Bitcoin will have a positive impact on American society because
Greg Johnson: Because it will be another way for our society to interact with [01:14:00] money that is not reliant just on centralized institutions.
Marc Beckman With BB: Beautiful. Like, right off the cuff, without even thinking, without missing a beat, you got it. I love it, Greg. Is there anything else that you'd like to add today? Um, it's been really a pleasure having you on the show. You're super insightful. I think we need to do like 10 more episodes together.
Greg Johnson: I think we'd be doing humanity maybe a disservice to your viewers, at least, but it's been, it's been fun to be with you, Mark. And again, um, we're in a moment in time where we continue to want to make things and just give five second bursts and that's the end. And certainly I know that you share this with your students.
I try and do the same thing with the people that I mentor, the businesses that I advise. You know, we really do need to invest the time to understand the nuance to these big issues. And so I would encourage anybody that's now, you know, just getting started kind of trying to understand this. You, we've never lived in a time, Mark, you, you mentioned Central Bank Digital [01:15:00] Currencies.
There's never been a time in humanity where the average citizen could have a seat at the table and be as informed and a part of the conversation as you can today. So despite all of the other potential negative impacts, if you want to participate in the conversation, you can. And I think that's something that we should always be reminded of.
and I, I think that's, that's, that's really important, you know, as we think about these things. Uh, political cycles are always a pendulum, but I, I think at the end of the day, it's up to the individual members of society to have their voice. You can have it. And it's not just by going on TikTok or another platform.
It's actually about educating yourself, spending time with you in the work and the thought leadership that you put out there. I think that's really what's important at this moment more than anything else. Have a seat at the table. Figurative or literal.
Marc Beckman With BB: I couldn't agree with you more, Greg. [01:16:00] Thank you.
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