After the Vows – Grief

In this episode of After the Vows, Joe and Karen Coffey sit down with Ken and Jamie Prabucki to talk about how marriage weathers deep grief. They share candidly about the brokenness each of them brought into their relationship, the pain of infertility, and how those experiences were shaped by past wounds. Through stories of anger, misaligned timelines in processing grief, and the challenge of supporting each other when hurting differently, they offer an honest look at what it takes to stay connected. The conversation emphasizes the importance of truth-telling, avoiding unhelpful “silver linings,” and leaning on Jesus as the ultimate source of hope.

What is After the Vows?

After the Vows is a podcast about the real challenges that arise in marriage after the honeymoon phase fades. Hosted by Joe & Karen Coffey, each episode offers honest conversations about growing together through every season of marriage. New episodes drop every Thursday, offering real talk, real struggles, and real hope—whether you're newly married or decades in.

Welcome to After the Vows, a podcast from Christ Community Chapel about the challenges that show up in marriage after the honeymoon ends. I'm Joe Coffey, and together with my wife Karen, we will gather in each episode with some friends just to talk about the real issues that happen in every marriage. I hope you'll join us.

Hey everybody. Welcome to this episode of After the Vows. Uh, today our topic is, uh, when life, uh, gets hard. When unexpected grief enters into the marriage and what to do then. So, uh, let me introduce, uh, my guests for today. I have my lovely wife and co-host, Karen. Hello. And then our friends, Ken and Jamie Prabucki.

Hello. Hi. Thanks so much for joining us. Uh, how long have you guys been married?

Go ahead. Is this a test? Uh, we've been married for 17 years. Okay. And if you're viewing, uh, we actually have a wedding photo of Ken and Jamie. If you guys want to tell us if you were, uh, set the red carpet that you're on with the sunglasses, the whole deal. That's right. You wanna set the stage for this? Um, I mean it's, so, it's a photo of us if you're listening in, uh, walking out of the church.

This is like after we've, you know, the ceremony is over and we're about to get into a very nice black Ford Mustang, which is not in the picture. Um, but we have sort of sunglasses on, and Ken calls this our movie star photo. Yeah. Um, yeah. I see that. Okay. Definitely. If you're not looking at a photo, just imagine two movie stars that have only gotten better with h.

I think that's the best way to describe it. All right. Now, uh, let me ask you this. It's just, uh, the first question. Uh, was the first year of your marriage easier or harder than you thought it would be? Ooh, uh. It was hard. I don't know if, I don't know what I thought it would be. Actually. I think, I think it was easier than the second year because we lived abroad and we, it was like a giant year long honeymoon vacation in some ways.

Yeah. I with. We lived in London. Yeah. So, uh, I was in law school and we were able to spend a year with me studying at, uh, Notre Dame's London Law Campus. I didn't even know that. Really? How about that? Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah. Uh, we were there for nine months. We'd been married for about a month when we, uh, when we moved there.

Stayed there for nine months and it was a blast. I agree. It, it basically, uh, allowed for us to put all of the practical. Um, challenges of marriage on hold because we would just like travel every three weeks we were going somewhere. And so, yeah, I, I, all kidding aside, I think we were able to punt on some things and then when we, uh, came back stateside, uh, then, then in some ways that's when marriage really began for us in, in earnest, I think, anyway.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think we've said this, uh, before that our first year was. Not a, not a hard year. It was because we got married while we were in school. And so that was the same kind of thing where mm-hmm. It was like we were playing house, nothing changed. We were still gonna the same classes, we just got to be together.

Mm-hmm. All the time. And then our third year when, uh, we moved and I got a job and that's when I got that, that was our hardest, uh, hard year. The hardest year until. My little brother was killed, and that became the hardest year, which is kind of what we're gonna talk about now. I'm gonna divide it into, we're gonna jump right in now, so enough fun stuff.

Now let's, let's go, let's go to the hard stuff. Um, I'm gonna divide it into two different types of, um, grief and sadness and brokenness. Uh, one is the kind of brokenness you bring into the marriage. That you may not have known that even you had or that your new spouse had. Uh, and then, uh, brokenness that happens, uh, while, while you're married to both of you at the same time.

So, uh, let's talk about the first one. Uh, which is the kind of brokenness that you might bring into a, into your marriage that you either knew or didn't know, or that surprised you.

I'm just gonna be talking more by default, so I'm gonna let you go first, Jamie. Um, okay. So what I was thinking about this question is, um, for me, the brokenness I was bringing into marriage, um, like my, both like my own sin and just from like life experiences, um, of a broken world. Those are things that like I knew we needed to talk about.

I knew we were not on the same page. I knew like there had to be conversation. Um, and so that's a hard conversation, but that like, there's a known, like something has to happen there. The things that we experienced together, um, I think like we experienced the same events and the same things. But not in the same way.

And I think there was a danger there of like an assumption that I understand how Ken is feeling because this is what happened. So the push to have a conversation around it or talk through it, I think is you have to like realize that and work much harder toward it. At least that was my perspective. Yeah, we're gonna, that's, that's a really good insight.

I'm gonna dig into that more in a minute. Uh. Let's go the, the first thing though, the brokenness, like with Ken, I know that you came, you brought in brokenness. Now Jamie, did you know how deep that was? That's the, that's one of the things is that like in our relationship, that I wouldn't, I might know something about Karen, but I didn't know how deep it went in her.

She might know something that happened to me, but not how deep. And I might not have been aware of that either. So Ken. Were you aware of how deep your own brokenness was with Uh, no. And, and as I sit here, I still don't know, and that's, I don't wanna jump ahead, but I mean, there's still, for me, I'm still discovering, uh, in seasons too.

You know, I got married, we were 24 years old. I brought in the things that, um, wounds that, that I carried, that affected me as a 24-year-old. Yeah. Not as a husband until I became one, not as a father. Until I became one. So still figuring that out. Now. You both, Sharon, some of that like what? I'm an open book Joe.

Okay. Your particular, your particular brokenness hap started with your dad leaving, or at least what I know of it. How old were you when your dad left? I was 10 years old and so early. My first 10 years remarked by fear, right? Uh, when my dad was around and then an entirely different kind of chaos in mayhem when he wasn't.

And so, um. I just, I, I used to jokingly say to Jamie, she was raised in a nuclear family. My family was nuclear too. Yeah. Just in a different way. And so I did not realize how incapable I was of believing that I was loved. Okay. Um, and it was, I remember, do you remember this? Yeah. Um, we had been married for a few years at this point when I just offhandedly mentioned to Jamie.

At some point she'd get tired of me and she would leave, but she heard the truth in what I was saying, the conviction, right? Mm-hmm. She said, no, that, you know, that won't happen. I said, uh, it'll probably happen. Said, no, that will never happen. I said, well, it'll probably happen, and we went back and forth on that.

I remember that conversation because I, I realized, yeah, I actually just assumed. People you love leave. That's what people do. Families don't stay together. Right, right now, yeah. I, I would assume that there are a lot of people in our audience that, uh, have experienced divorce in their background. Mm-hmm. Um, so what would be something that you would tell them?

In that's, or maybe Jamie, what's important for somebody to, from your perspective, to care for somebody who feels like, Ken, how long did it take you, did, were you patient in that? Did, I mean, did you ever. Have you convinced him yet? I think so. You have and I think so. I think that was a separate conversation That was actually, no kidding.

Yeah. It was to finally come to believe that there is someone that won't leave. Yeah. Uh, someone that, you know, uh, I love my mom. Mom, if you're listening, I know you're not going anywhere, but, right. I mean, in, in the context of marriage, because I never saw two people stay married, but I believe it now. But, but I also, but did now were you sc like I know my dad, my dad's dad died when he was five.

And I remember my dad telling me one time, it was kind of a surprise, he said, sometimes it's better to not to have a dad than have a bad dad. 'cause he always wanted to be a dad. He was a great dad, but he had no memories of his dad. 'cause his dad died when he was young. But it was, he was saying it was better.

He knew people with bad dads and that did more damage than growing up without a dad. Now. When you started thinking about getting married and being a husband and being a dad, how much fear was there in you that you would be like your dad? That's a great question. Um, I think I had resolved to just not be him, period.

Right. Just the opposite, which I didn't realize until much later is very different than doing the right thing. Doing the opposite is running from something and trying to create what you believe the right thing is, because you never saw the right thing modeled, right? Mm-hmm. And so I was doing these imperfect kind of imitations of the polar opposite of, of my dad and in, and this is really, I would just say this too to, to the question you asked a minute ago.

If you come from a broken family. And, uh, you're married. Now, you need to understand that your spouse cannot bear the weight of the expectations that you often put on them to be what you never had. It's unfair. It ultimately will break you. Uh, only Jesus can withstand the force of that expectation and a lot of.

Shoot. A lot of folks that come from healthy families could put that expectation on each other, but I think it is more often more pronounced when you're coming from a broken family because Jamie was my Jesus, right? For the first few years we had that conversation too. And I love you, babe. You're not Jesus.

Nope. You were never meant to be. And I expected so much of you. And I think, and I know we'll get into this, that is in part what. Made our journey through infertility so difficult because it was shattered. Shattered expectations that I held of myself and what our family would look like, and yes, of Jamie.

As unrealistic as they were. As unreasonable as they were. I was asking you to be something that I never should have asked you to be. I was terribly wrong. Yeah. All right. Now, uh, one more question before we get into that area, Jamie. Like you had mentioned when you bring your, you brought your own hurts and whatever into the marriage, but they weren't nearly, doesn't seem like they were nearly as pronounced as Ken's.

Did you ever feel like, uh, there was an awful lot of healing that needed to happen with Ken and you were not being. Tended to and your healing wasn't good. Do you know what I'm asking? Um, I think maybe let me answer and tell me if I miss it. Um, so I think, um, well, I guess, and this goes back to a question you asked earlier about like the depth of.

Just the depth of the brokenness and how that would affect our, you know, marriage and parenting. I think that for me, like conceptually that was something I was like, oh yeah, this is like, there are gonna be things that are hard about this. But, um, for me it was more about like growing and learning how much that is a lens through which.

Can both processes and experiences everything. Right? And um, you know, we have three adopted kids who like see their birth families in some degree, but even things like, um, things that, not to throw around a buzzword, but I don't, that's probably fair to say, they're some kind of triggering thing. Like for us having a birth family visit, like.

I worry about the kids, then I worry about Ken because also that like, that's all related, like right, it's all interconnected in some way. Um, and so that's a lot. I think. So it was a journey too of like, uh, yeah. Of learning Ken more and more. Yes. The depth of, yeah. Yes. And I think, I think, but also Ken has learned himself better, which I think.

I, I learn him better, right? Because he's learned himself better. And I would hope that's true of me too. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. Good. Okay. Uh, now let's get to the, like, uh, okay. So every couple, I think, brings in their own, uh, brokenness in one way or another into the marriage, but then there are certain things that happen while you're married.

Uh, for you guys, it, uh, at least the, the pain we're gonna talk about is the. The pain of infertility. Tell me about what that was like. That seems like a slow, uh, you know, there's stuff that's sudden like my brother's accident. Mm-hmm. Infertility seems like it's a slow grief. Yeah. And it's breaking and breaking, breaking, breaking to me rather than like, bam.

Mm-hmm. So tell me. So that means that you guys processed it and had to process it, and each time it, you guys could process it differently. Mm-hmm. Okay. So let's explore that. Something. Tell me what it's, you asked for it. Tell me what it's like. Tell me what, what it, what it's like from your perspective too.

Experience infertility me first. Um, so for me, um. And I guess by way of background, Ken reference this, but I grew up in a home with two Christian parents. I have a younger brother. Um, you know, there were a slew of different things that, you know, happened in our family. It wasn't perfect, but it was, I never.

It never even occurred to me that like my parents would not be together or that I would marry someone and maybe not be with them. That just, it wasn't a thing. It never occurred to me that maybe my parents didn't love me or honestly even. Yeah. And so even like when I thought about our family, and actually we have this, we have this book from when we were dating of like this list of things we wanted to do, um.

And, and one of those things was, was to adopt kids. So, but in my head, my family was gonna be a few biological kids and a few adopted kids. And we would have some kids and have a family and it'd be great. And that's sort of, um, and my parents never adopted kids, but they took in some, like, we took in some people who lived with us for a while who just start by default, kids, you know, that's just how my family was.

So I never felt a need to. That I was gonna rise and fall on having a biological child. But I knew that for Ken, and not that this is right, but that in his head, to prove that there was not a genetic like replica of his dad going over and over again. Having a biological kid was gonna be really connected to that.

So for me, um. I think when we realized that that probably was not going to happen. Um, and for us, and there are different ways infertility works, right? Like some people get really conclusive answers, some people don't. You get this ambiguous, like, well, the likelihood of this is very, very, very slim. We can't really tell you why.

Here's some contributing factors. And that's sort of its own dangling kind of right thing because then it's like, uh, okay, like, uh, um, so, so from there you really have to like, it's, it's because it's undefined. I think the choice to move forward with some other thing or to, to really grieve it as a, as a final, this, this is the thing is, is difficult.

Um, and so that was I think where the conflict was happening for us because I was. Ready. Like I heard that and I said, okay, this is not a thing. This is not a thing that's gonna break us. Like, I don't need a child to be a biological child. What, what is the next step for us? We wanted to adopt, let adopt, but it took Ken longer to get there.

So for, for me personally, a lot of the grief was in that in between time where I had gotten to a place that Ken wasn't yet. And I feel like we had a lot of conflict in that place, and I don't feel like externally, I had a lot of good supports for that. Um, because we were getting a lot of pressure from our families to have kids, but no one really asking how we were doing or why, or did people, people are really pushy about that.

And I didn't feel like there was, we just didn't talk about it with other people, or I didn't. Wait, that's a, what you brought up is really good. Point, just because I think so many people, if couples are listening and they haven't gone through something hard yet, uh, they would expect, I would expect, I expected when we were young, if we were gonna go through something hard, we'd go through it together.

Mm-hmm. Like at the same pace we'd emerge at the same time. Mm-hmm. But you don't. Right. So then you, you were done grieving or not done grieving, you had reached a certain stage. Mm-hmm. Ken was not there yet. Uh, how did you navigate one, how did Ken, how did you navigate that? Did you know she was at a different place than you?

Did that put pressure on you to try to speed up? No, I was furious with her. Okay. I didn't, yeah, I think, uh, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I, I wanted to prove that I wasn't my dad, and if I don't have a little, me running around with my DNA. I didn't think I could do that. Right. So that then made me wonder, and I said this to Ja, I said, is there something just so wrong with me that God won't let us have kids?

Right. My and I actually apologized to Jamie at one point, um, saying, you'll never be a mom because I'm so broken. Boy. That's when the, the, the brokenness you bring in is hit with a brokenness. Yep. That's. That's like a tsunami. Yeah. It's why I, uh, that's, uh, in lawyer terms, I object to the foundation of your question and bifurcating what you bring in and what you experienced.

Because for me, what I experienced was directly informed by what I brought in. It was the lens through which I viewed this, no question. And I was so angry with Jamie for being willing to accept this and not go to the mat and get more answers or try harder, whatever that looks like. And it drove such a wedge.

I drove such a wedge. Between us and I've, I've talked about this a little bit in, in other, um, in other contexts here at the church, but I was just so incredibly self-consumed. Yeah. But that, I mean, that's, that would I, I would think that's the biggest danger of experiencing pain in a marriage is. The anger that can come with the pain.

I mentioned it in a sermon not too long ago, that anger is a secondary emotion, but pain is the first, is a primary emotion. I know with my little brother, I was so angry too, and I wasn't angry at Karen, but I remember thinking, uh, I was angry enough to say, I don't know if I'll ever laugh again. That's mm-hmm.

Tough. Mm-hmm. If I'm dark, if I'm angry, my from now on. I don't know what to tell you, you know? And I was just going, gosh, that's, that was awful. But yeah. So anger. But your anger happened to be targeting Jamie. Jamie and God. Yeah. How dare he not even give me a chance to prove that I could be a better dad, that my dad was to me, and I'll also say this.

It's, it's, it's a funny thing and, and often a hurtful thing when it comes to parenting and when it comes to trying to get pregnant. The entitlement that so many people feel to speak in, to be helpful when they're not helpful at all. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just gonna say this. If you're, if you're listening, if you're, if you're watching, be so careful with even the most well-intentioned bits of advice.

Mm-hmm. We had somebody tell us at one point, just eat a lot of kale and you'll get pregnant. Yeah. And you think about something as funny as that. What's actually built into that is you can do something about it, just try harder, more roughage. Mm-hmm. But even the arrogance, I'll use that word and I mean it, the arrogance to speak in and I think for us, that has, God has used that, we are much slower, I think, to speak into other people's circumstances because what right do we have?

Yeah. Um. Everybody had an answer. There's one really good thing that comes out of somebody going through pain is usually they come out with a lot with real compassion and not. Now Karen, I know you, you are a fan of Yeah. I was thinking about, first of all, yeah. Ken and Jamie, thank you so much for being here and thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability with us.

I, um, I've thought, thought of two people. One is Brene Brown has a little tiny video on empathy and compassion. Yes, I know exactly what you're, that. It's so good. And it just talks about us silver lining things, hard things that other people are going through without giving regard to them. And I think that's what you're speaking to because you want to try to make 'em feel better, but it's, it's so terrible.

Yeah. It's, yeah. Yeah. We just did, um, I just did a grief workshop about a month ago, maybe a couple months ago, here at the church, and I went through and I invited the room to share. The dumbest things people have ever told them. And so many of them were, at least it's not yes. Or hey, I know exactly how you feel and yeah, again, and, and well-intentioned doesn't fix it.

Whether, I mean to run you over or I swerve to avoid a squirrel and hit you. Either way you're bleeding. Right. And I think that's what people need to understand. Hmm. We, we can't, in our, in our own grief, we're not gonna wade through and hold onto your motivation. Thanks for sending it our way. Mm. We're just hurting.

Yeah. And thanks for wanting to solve it and fix it and fill the awkward silence. You, you can't. Yeah. You, you can't. So please don't try. That's really good. Yeah. The best thing that's really good he said to me is they, uh, said, uh, I lost a brother too. Uh, but I don't know how you feel because I didn't lose your brother.

Mm-hmm. And there were so many dumb things people said to me. I just wanna just hug them and just say. You, you understand it? I mean, that's tough. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Alright. May ask you, Jamie, that, I mean, that puts you in a, in a really difficult position to have an angry husband and you're hurting. I mean, you're, you, you might have worked through a particular part of the grief and been ready to move on, but it's not like you didn't have any grief at all.

So you're hurting and then he's angry. How did you deal with that? How did you. I think probably not super well. I think, uh, again, I don't know. You're both still here, so you must Yeah. Well we're very stubborn. Yeah, that's good. That's true both of us. Yeah. And that, and strong stubborn in, in some ways is the best thing to be in some circumstances, stances in the Lord's grace.

Yeah. Marriage. You can work it out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I think for me that was a lot of, um, and again, I wish, I think I would have probably processed it better. Had I shared it with anyone and had just, you know, someone to, to listen. Um, so yeah, I would say like, if it's, I know Infertility's a thing no one talks about because there's just a, I think especially for women, there's a lot tied up in that, right?

Like there's this misunderstanding of biblical womanhood and, and also like motherhood and what that is. And, um, just like a lot of, a lot of stuff there. If you're sitting there in this is you don't like, do, it's, I like, don't hide in that. I guess there are, this is a, this is a pretty common thing actually.

Um, unfortunately in the brokenness of the world. So I would say that, but I think for me it was a lot of, it was just like, um, I am grateful that I, I do feel like we had a good church family at that time. Um, and there was no one. Telling me lies about what was happening. Like people, the people who were speaking to us who didn't really know what was going on, but who just knew when things were hard, were really good about saying things that are true, true and not things.

Um, I, I think there's a danger what I was getting a lot from my family, and I love my family, but they're just, um, I grew up in a. Kind of a very touchy feely interpretation of the Bible where there's a lot of like, um, I wouldn't call it totally prosperity gospel, but it's a little bit like that, right? And so I would get a lot of, oh, but God has this for you.

Things that God actually hasn't promised me. And I think that like diminished the promises he actually has for us by throwing it out there. So, um, I think what made that bearable is that. In, in our small circle of like the people we had, I wasn't hearing things that were lies. I was hearing things that were true.

Um, and it was just a lot of time like praying that God would work it out. Because for me, the grief in that, in that moment was like, what if we don't have kids? Not because we can't biologically have kids, but because Ken's never Okay. Having kids like any other way. Then that for me was like, when I felt the grief of not having kids, it was not that they were not biological, it was like, oh, maybe there just won't be any Right.

Mm-hmm. In this family. Okay. So Ken, what anger, uh, dissipated first, the anger toward gout or the anger toward Jamie? Uh, it was all at once actually. It was, I've had very few Thunderbolt God moments in my life, but this was one of 'em. I remember exactly where I was. We had just had another fight, and by that I mean I just was angry at you again, and I think you had retreated to the bedroom.

I was in the living room and God just, just hit me with this. Um, so just a visual of me throwing a tantrum in the throne room of God. And, and I've shared this before, uh, but it is just so formative for me where God is, is, is there and he's saying, son, like I've, I've, I've given you so much. And I'm saying, I don't care.

I want this, I want family my way and my time, the way I define it. And, and, and I just heard him saying, I've given you Jesus. And I'm saying, I don't care. I don't care. I want kids. I don't care about Jesus. That that was functionally true for me. And then just the Holy Spirit just honestly just reached in and all that anger just dissipated.

And what was left was honestly sadness that I'd put so much on you, Jamie, and that I had just looked past the promises God had made and invented promises that he never did. And I didn't realize it then, but that actually laid the groundwork for something you just said, Jane, which was when we had, um, you know, in, in our adoption journey, which is a whole other series of chapters in our life, but placements that that didn't go through heartache, that, that accompanied that process.

Just looking at each other and just asking each other honestly, what lies are you believing? 'cause the lies that Jamie and I believe are very different lies, right? Yeah. So we gotta ask and then speak truth into them. Mm-hmm. Don't let them fester. Don't let them just sit there and grow and become infected.

Uh, that was incredibly, but that was, that was the moment that really started to inform that what's true and what's not true. And I'm so thankful to you, Jane. Now are there times where there times, um, and this is for everybody, when as a couple, if you're both grieving, uh, when, uh, is one supposed to be strong and the other not?

I know that sometimes I know when, when my brother died, we grieved differently. Which was hard 'cause I assumed she wasn't grieving, she was trying to stay strong so that she wouldn't make me sadder. So we, instead of communicating, I just misinterpreted different things. But is there a time, like if you were talking to a couple that were going, was going through grief and uh, somebody was saying, well, when am I supposed to be the strong one?

Would you tell them to worry about that or not worry about that or both? Be weak at the same time. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like if one's, uh, can't stop crying, does the other one, is it better for the one to just sit and cry with them or to, well, once you have kids, somebody has to be. Functioning well.

Right. And we had two kids at that time, John, um, was living with us and we had Rachel too. And Jeremy was four. And then another boy from the church died at the SA in the same accident. So when you talk about support mm-hmm. You know, we didn't have really church support 'cause the whole church was grieving.

Mm-hmm. And then, um, Joe was grieving so much that. We were just almost on different roads. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I wanted to be strong. I didn't wanna add any more grief to what he was going through, so it was, for me, it was just suck it up and just keep going. Mm-hmm. And you had, I mean, somebody had to keep Yeah.

I wasn't paying attention to anything. Mm-hmm. And make life as easy as possible for you. And so I don't think that was, I think what we should have done was, I should have said I'm grieving too, but right now I'm choosing to keep functioning for the family. Yeah. And how can I, you know, what can I do? To support you, but I was so afraid even to use the wrong language.

Mm. That I, I, we just, I don't think we communicated very much. Yeah. And you guys have said it. I think that it seems like you, if, if a couple's in, in that the kind of grief that you guys were in, the kind of grief that we were in, you need to find someone to talk to. Mm-hmm. Who won't, who will help you with the truth.

Those, that's hard. I mean, they, they, we got a lot of. I, I was so, I was so angry, period. But I had Christians tell me stuff that made me mm-hmm. Even more angry. Mm-hmm. And I was saying stuff that didn't, that wasn't, didn't make sense. Almost like your tantrum. I remember somebody saying to me, what you don't know, uh, how many people could come to Christ because of John's death.

And I, I looked him straight in the eye as a pastor and I said, I don't care. I don't care if the whole world comes to Christ. I was like, and they're like, no, that's one of one of the reasons I got fired from that job. You know, as a pastor, you can't be that angry with God. But, um, but anyway, so how do you, what, what do we tell couples that are going through it?

Uh, I know, uh, as a ministry we're gonna connect people with, uh, people that have gone through some stuff who won't say mm-hmm. Uh. Untrue things. Mm-hmm. Uh, would you recommend, did you guys go to counseling? Did that play a part in it? No, incredibly. We did not. We didn't. I mean, I, I do now. Yeah. I'm not quitting anytime soon.

Um, I, I do think there are, you can only go so far with the practical advice with bringing in the community at the end of the day. I honestly, we, we say this a lot. We don't know how marriage works without Jesus, right? Right. Because if, if, if, if you are not drawing your, your strength, if your, if your reservoir isn't being filled up by the God of the universe who created you, who knows you better than you know yourself, and who understands your brokenness better than you understand it and can see on the other side of whatever the circumstances are that you're walking through, if you're not going to him, how would you ever know?

How would you even have the wisdom to know when it's time to give or to take, right? Like that's, uh, that's not a mystical answer. That's a necessary one, I think. But we also have a habit, I think, of being pretty open with each other, where we'll say things like, if you just, I, I just need this day. You gimme this day.

Mm-hmm. And I, I'll be back, or you give me this hour. Right? Or just gimme 30, I mean. I have 30 minutes, I'm gonna go cry. I'm super sad, but I'll be okay. Just gimme that space so I can give my kids and give you the best that I've got. Yeah. And that, that permission in the moment. If it's more spontaneous, sometimes we can say, Hey, let's, let's structure this.

We also process a different speed. So sometimes I'll, things will hit me on a delay. Right. And I think that's God's grace. That we're not traveling at the same speed, because then we can actually, it's the flip side of the difficulty of not moving at the same speed, right? If you're at least in tune with one another, you can be there and then when you're weak, they're there.

Yeah. That's really good. That's really good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. Last, uh, I don't know if this last question or not either of you, uh, struggle with deadening your pain in an unhealthy way. I mean, that's one of the dangers I think too, that you, you're trying to get out of pain. Like, uh, so if you choose, there are a lot of bad ways to get outta pain.

Mm-hmm. And that introduces a whole nother set of problems into a marriage. Mm-hmm. Either of you struggle with that? Not at all. Zero. No, you didn't, not, yeah. Isn't that great? No. Jane, uh, uh, what would you say? I mean, I. I feel like everyone does that. Yes. But that's really, that's maybe over general. Yes. Um, yeah.

I think for me, so I, I do not like conflict. It makes me uncomfortable. I'm a conflict avoider in like within our house sometimes I think hopefully I've gotten a little better at it. But, um, so if addressing it is going to cause conflict and. You know, Ken is an attorney, so he can argue his way out of everything.

And I'm a delayed processor, so if you ask me a question, I need an hour to think about it, and then I'll come back with a really good answer. But I don't want you to rush my answer right now that that makes fight like healthy fighting hard. So, um, I. Yeah. I would say for me it's just like, can I go, go, go, go, go, go, go.

So I don't have to address it. I can just work more. I can come up with more projects. Right, right. I can help more people. I can, I can ignore it real good till I'm blue in the face. Um, we should be really good friends. Yes. Great people. Because that's just exactly what I do. Yeah. I, I'll run to comfort. I'll run to just unplugging, which is a.

Probably on the healthier end of the spectrum, but can be super unhealthy. I don't know. You could tell me if I, I don't feel like I'm unavailable to our kids. I probably shortchange you and I have to work really hard in tough seasons, even now to make sure that, that Jamie gets my best after the kids go to bed.

'cause what I wanna do. Honestly is, uh, fry up a couple eggs and toast and like disappear downstairs and watch something on net. Netflix. Yeah. And I have to just fight to be present because comfort for me, uh, is, is the ultimate escape. Just turn something on, tune it out. Yeah. And just leave me alone. Yeah.

And, and the spectrum of, of kind of self-soothing, both those things I think are pretty healthy as compared to what's out there. I was thinking more of. Southern comfort, you know, that kind of thing, not Netflix. So, yeah, so that's a, that's a good thing I think 'cause you have a better chance of having a rhythm of coming out of that and reengaging than you do if you start to really struggle with an addiction that can get there.

There. Well, thanks so much. I mean, Karen, thank you guys. Thanks for being vulnerable and, uh, sharing with us some of your journey. I think it's been some great insights on how to deal with, uh, the pain that we bring into a marriage and the pain that we experience in the midst of a marriage. So, uh, thanks again and, uh.

I really appreciate it. Love you guys. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Thanks for joining us for this episode of After the Vows. If this hit close to home and you wanna know what your next step could be, your next step could be just a conversation. Uh, we always think that it's good for you to connect with somebody who might have a little more experience, a little more insight.

Uh, so we've set up marriage coaches and there's no curriculum or anything, but, and there's no long-term commitment. It could be just one meeting, could be a couple of meetings. Uh, but you can sign up for that. Uh, that would be great. Another possibility is if you want to grow spiritually or through, uh, your marriage, there are other episodes of this podcast or other podcasts that you can access through our YouTube channel or our church app.

But, uh, you're welcome to access all of those. Uh, but we're so glad you joined us for this episode.