Helen von Dadelszen on courageous action, nervous system regulation, and speaking with confidence

Helen von Dadelszen on courageous action, nervous system regulation, and speaking with confidence.

I (Jacky Power) speak with Helen von Dadelszen, voice and communication coach and author of Courageous Action, about what it really takes to communicate well when you are nervous, under pressure, or worried about getting it wrong. We explore how confidence is built through action, not perfection, and why vulnerability, preparation, and self-trust matter more than sounding polished.

We discuss the mindset and body-based tools that help people speak up more effectively in interviews, meetings, presentations, and performances. Helen shares practical ways to quiet the inner soundtrack, regulate the nervous system, and expand your comfort zone through repeated courageous action.

Key topics

• Helen introduces Courageous Action as a practical guide to building confidence through action, not waiting until you feel ready.
• We reflect on a real-time example of how nerves and self-consciousness can affect communication.
• Helen explains that hesitations, stumbles, and rephrasing are part of being human and can create connection rather than weaken credibility.
• Helen describes the internal “soundtrack” of limiting beliefs, including thoughts like “I’m not confident enough,” “my accent is funny,” or “I’m not senior enough.”
• Helen recommends asking two key questions before speaking.
• The conversation covers embodied regulation tools including breath, grounding, power poses, tapping, and low-stakes practice.
• Helen emphasizes that effective communication is hard in fight, flight, or freeze, so the goal is to down-regulate the nervous system rather than eliminate nerves.
• Jacky shares performance experiences, including reading from a script on stage and learning from feedback to slow down and trust the poetry more.
• They discuss how audience silence, awkward moments, small turnouts, or logistical mishaps can be turned into connection rather than failure.
• Helen share that good speakers often involve the audience more, ask questions, and create participation rather than lecture at people.
• The episode ends with Helen explaining her workshop Your Voice, Your Calling Card and her four P’s of vocal variety.

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Timestamps

00:00 - Opening stumble and why nervousness shows up when the stakes feel high
 03:06 - Why perfection is not the goal in communication
 07:00 - The importance of intention and how you want to be perceived
 09:30 - The inner soundtrack of self-doubt and fear of judgment
 11:52 - Finding 2 or 3 words that anchor your communication
 14:22 - Using the body and nervous system to stay grounded
 16:20 - Why courageous action means acting while still feeling fear
 17:39 - Trusting yourself even when your body is activated
 19:14 - How nervousness is individual and shows up differently for everyone
 21:01 - Finding the techniques that work for you, then turning them into a ritual
 22:03 - Why practice matters before the stressful moment arrives
 23:31 - Speaking well means pacing yourself, pausing, and practicing out loud
 24:36 - Meeting yourself where you are, including using notes on stage or in meetings
 25:40 - Why “good is better than perfect” and waiting can become a trap
 26:49 - Learning from feedback when rushing through material too quickly
 27:45 - Slowing down so the audience can process and connect
 28:45 - Using notes in meetings and breaking the ice with the audience
 30:09 - Handling silence, blank faces, and online disengagement
 31:50 - Challenging negative assumptions about audience reactions
 33:31 - Why the best communication often involves audience participation
 34:42 - Turning awkward real-world moments into shared connection
 37:45 - Preparing for logistical problems before they derail you
 40:11 - Courageous action as a way to expand the comfort zone
 42:08 - Helen’s workshop, Your Voice, Your Calling Card
44:06 - Where to find Helen and her book

Action items

• Identify 2 or 3 words that describe how you want to be experienced when you speak.
• Practice your message out loud before the real event.
• Use breathing or grounding techniques before high-stakes communication.
• Bring notes if they help you stay on track.
• If the room feels cold, create connection by speaking to a few people first.
• Review feedback for what is useful, then keep what fits and discard what does not.
• Treat awkward moments as opportunities to connect, not proof of failure.

To find out more about Helen go to: https://academy.presentpotential.ch/ and find her on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/helenvond/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-von-dadelszen/ and Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@presentpotential2090/videos

Creators and Guests

Host

Jacky Power

What is Words in the Wilderness?

The Words in the Wilderness podcast is for those who have the conviction to make changes in their life as they drag their feet through the messy middle, crying into the void "it ends with me."

Led by Jacky Power - The Therapeutic Poet - these are conversations that look underneath the label, the diagnosis, the tidy explanation, at what's actually going on.

If you've made a decision to change your life and now you're in that wobbly, lonely bit where nobody quite gets what you're going through, I made this for you. Because I've been there. Many times.

Each episode starts with one of my own poems, using therapeutic poetry to set the scene. Sometimes it's just me, unpacking human tricky things. Sometimes it's a guest - a therapist, a coach, someone whose lived experience has taught them something worth passing on.

We talk about leaving what doesn't fit anymore, about breaking the patterns you inherited and don't want to leave as your legacy, about all your human tricky things that you've maybe been taught to hide.

I'm Jacky Power and I'm on a mission to rehumanise, one poem at a time. Reminding you that you have permission to feel and use those feelings as data to decode, not symptoms to squash.

Follow Jacky on Instagram: @the_therapeutic_poet
Find out more: www.jackypower.com
Listen to Jacky on Insight Timer: www.insighttimer.com/TheTherapeuticPoet
Join her on Substack`:www.jackypower.substack.com

Jacky (02:17)
welcome to Words in the Wilderness. on the episode today joining me is Helen von Dadelszen Helen is a voice and communication coach and she's also author of Courageous Action, a book which is a really practical guide on building confidence through action, not before it. And I absolutely love that. You give so much guidance and really helpful advice in that, Helen. So welcome first of all.

It's great to have you here.

Helen von Dadelszen (02:45)
Thanks

so much, Jacky It's lovely to see you again.

Jacky (02:47)
it's so funny because just as I was starting to record, I managed to fluff my lines and get your name pronunciation wrong, even though I had just asked for your name pronunciation and you said, just breathe. And I thought that's, that's really good example, isn't it? Of actually when we're in those moments, when those little tiny moments of kind of

like emotional dysregulation aren't they? We're starting something new. to make sure I get your name pronounced right and then immediately I've forgotten it and I think that can happen when we're in positions where we need to speak or you know it's just different to our norm right?

Helen von Dadelszen (03:27)
Absolutely, you just hit record. You really care about your podcast. You want also to have a good interview discussion with me. And so the stakes are quite high. And then

Jacky (03:38)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (03:39)
you rush in, your brain's going 100 miles a minute. And then you stumble and this is so normal and so human. And that's exactly what I wanted to help people with in the book is to give practical tips on how to regulate your system and also prepare and practice.

for such situations.

Jacky (03:59)
Yeah, and that is one thing, I think you've mentioned this in your book actually, when we do fluff our lines or when we do mess things up. And actually those moments of vulnerability can be a real opportunity for connection rather than us beating ourselves up that we somehow haven't got it perfect.

Helen von Dadelszen (04:17)
Yeah, we know that people want to connect with people and communication is a way of sharing our ideas with the world and connecting with others. And we don't want to be speaking to robots. So the hesitations,

Jacky (04:30)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (04:30)
the mess ups, the stumbling over our words, having to rephrase things, it's part of being human. And I believe that it's not something that we should aim to get rid of, right? That perfection,

Jacky (04:44)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (04:44)
being a perfect speaker.

That is not the aim. And often these thoughts and feelings come because we're so focused on ourselves and how we're feeling and how other people might be thinking of us that we get caught up on that self-conscious loop rather than thinking about our audience and what they need.

Jacky (05:06)
Absolutely. I'm going to intercept with the poem here because I think it's a really good

kind of moment to make that point. And then I want to come back and talk about what is it we're trying to do when we are trying to speak and communicate with others. So this is one of the first poems that I wrote and it goes like this.

I didn't see me standing there. I was hiding in plain sight. I sought a claim for intellect, scrawling what others would have me write.

I didn't know my voice was here. It had been all bushel and no light. But then my pen began to move and I began to write.

I wonder how we can bring our 'I-ness' rather than this proving, this performing that I think so many of us can end up stepping into when we're in those kind of positions of needing to speak up.

Helen von Dadelszen (06:08)
Yeah, it's the performative element of showing up and communicating our ideas. And we are bombarded with content at the moment. And think that the only version that is worthy is polished and perfect. And I don't believe that.

If I see someone speaking so perfectly that I actually start thinking, is it an AI?

Jacky (06:42)
You

Helen von Dadelszen (06:43)
No, seriously, that I find it difficult to engage and connect. I would much rather have someone who stumbles over their words, forgets what they're saying, and needs shows that true humanness and vulnerability.

because that's what I connect with personally and I think these standards that we hold ourselves to sometimes are just unhelpful and actually really detrimental because they can actually hide us under the bushel as you say, hide our light, dim our light and make us sound like everyone else so that that voice

that we all have our own thoughts, feelings, ways of expressing things becomes all the same. And I think that's a real pity.

Jacky (07:41)
Yeah and one of the things that I think is a real challenge is about how developed that self underneath is.

know in what I talk about I talk about the hulp which is this moment where something has happened where we're feeling alone or we're feeling shocked and instead of reaching out for support and guidance we have to hulp it down we sort of have we you know we gulp that howl down and the reason that we do that is because it's not going to be received well and I think

those hulp moments originate in childhood but then really go like we experience them again and again. I think this is what your book really speaks into is we're not all coming to this with a level playing field of all I need to do be is a bit more human a bit more authentic and then everything will be fine. Like that is a very scary prospect because a lot of us haven't developed

Who is our authentic self?

Helen von Dadelszen (08:38)
Yeah, and this is why a lot of my work is around the mindset. How we think about ourselves, our relationship to our work, our relationship to other people, what's going through our head at the time, but even what are we telling ourselves before we even try, right? And one of the ways that I think is really helpful to break that or take...

that and look at it under a magnifying glass is to think about what do I intend? What is my intention for this communication?

And related to that, how do I want to be perceived? Because we're so multifaceted and we show up differently for different people, all within who we are.

Jacky (09:32)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (09:33)
So thinking about if you have a meeting that you're running or a presentation you have to do, or even a difficult conversation, what do you want others, the person listening, to take away from who you are?

Jacky (09:50)
I think we can get lost in that might not even be something that we consider because when we're so in that place of defending or protecting or, you know, which we might do through armoring up or kind of, you know, performing and what you're talking about is really getting back to that. These people are here to connect with you in some way.

And I love that because it's much more sort of step forward than step back. You know, I think when we're,

Helen von Dadelszen (10:17)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (10:18)
when we're in that frame of mind of, my gosh, you I'm, say in the book, don't you, about the difference between feeling nervous or feeling excited is all just in your mindset. Like physiologically, it's very similar.

Helen von Dadelszen (10:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jacky (10:31)
what are some of the defenses or the worries that people have? Like what are the beliefs that they've got going on that make it difficult for them to step into that sort of connection place? Like the nervous things they might have.

Helen von Dadelszen (10:46)
So as you know from my book, I call all of the things that we're thinking, so these are the defenses, the beliefs, what we're telling ourselves, the soundtrack that we have

Jacky (10:56)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (10:57)
in our brain. And I borrowed that from John Acuff, because I love music as well, and I think it's so powerful to shift our mood. And so imagining what you are playing back to yourself constantly, which can totally affect the way that you show up. So the sort of things that I typically

and most people think they're the only ones who think or believe

Jacky (11:20)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (11:20)
this, right? I'm just not that confident. It's not something I was born with. I can push myself through, but it's not for me. I'm just not good on the stage. I'm not a public speaker. well. So all of these things would

Jacky (11:36)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (11:36)
just give you a great excuse not to do it, right?

Jacky (11:40)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (11:41)
The other thing, so thinking about yourself.

my English isn't good enough, my accent is funny, I'm not senior enough in the organization, or should I be the one speaking up? And that's all very internal. And then there's the big challenge also is all of the voices that we give to everyone else, they're going to think this about me, or believe that about me, or worry about my, I don't know, they don't like my t-shirt, or they don't like my whatever.

all of the perceived things that other people are thinking and feeling about you, which let's

Jacky (12:18)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (12:18)
be honest, most of the time there's very little of that going on. Most of us are quite egocentric thinking about ourselves, looking positively, wanting the speaker to do well. And so when you dig deep and think about, that really true? It's often not the case. So those are the sort

Jacky (12:38)
Hmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (12:39)
of

worries, beliefs that are going on in our heads.

Jacky (12:43)
When you have said to them, you know, actually, what is it that you intend? What difference do you see? Kind of even in their demeanor or in that sense of possibility that they have, what shifts do you see?

Helen von Dadelszen (12:55)
So this is so interesting. Most people are shocked that they've never even considered

Jacky (13:02)
You

Helen von Dadelszen (13:03)
what this intention, what this perception is that they want. And when they find the words, and it's the power of words, right? When they find the words that they resonate with, they almost feel a safety within them. So the words are, I helped to frame it as,

You know, the first time I met Jacky yeah, Jacky she is so... What are those words? Warm, thoughtful, engaging, inspiring, sharp. You know, there's a whole range of adjectives that we can give to what is truly us and what we really do believe that we have inside us, how we want other people to perceive us, even if we don't quite feel there. And once they find those two or three words,

and we're multifaceted. yes, indeed, they might be warm and engaging and sharp all within that, right? In terms of how that person, the other person should perceive me, which is true to myself. And once they find those words, it becomes like an anchor for them. And it helps them define, well first quieten their negative voices, but then also define

how they construct their communication, how they use their voice, how they use their body, their hands. And then they're coming with a package that supports that. And then the audience is more likely to feel those or perceive the person in those ways. So it can make a huge difference to people. It's often surprising and it's not difficult to do. And then we just need to remind ourselves, okay, in this...

job interview, I want to appear like a nice warm, fun colleague and very sharp and knowledgeable. Right? So that might be something. And once they've got that, helps them go, okay, then then I could answer the question like this, rather than being apologetic, I can bring in some of my personal, my personality and some of my examples that show that my professionalism and my experience. So it really

can be a huge difference.

and it's such an easy exercise. Very, very simple.

Jacky (15:25)
And what you also do within your book is you really bring in that embodied piece because as we know, we can have lots of brilliant intentions about how we want to come across, but then when we're actually in it and you know, it suddenly feels like we're in a bit of a threat kind of situation, everything narrows down, our thinking

Helen von Dadelszen (15:42)
Yeah.

Jacky (15:44)
brain is no longer online and we're just in like, where's the exit? And what you talk about in the book is actually all of the different ways that we can tap into the wisdom of

nervous system through through breath through paying attention to what's around us to really help ground us.

Helen von Dadelszen (16:03)
Yeah, so you've said it so well. The idea is that if you want to be effective, present communicators who are able to connect with their audience, we cannot be in a state of fight or flight or freeze. And so even though these reactions in our body are normal and natural and part of being human, we need to learn to...

get them to a state where they're not overtaking us, overwhelming us, to a point where we can't even think about our words, our hands are shaking so much that we can't hold the paper, all of that. So it's recognizing it's normal, and then how do I just turn that down so it's not screaming at me, and possibly even turning it into something that is positive energy and helps us become more

engaging and even more connected.

Jacky (17:01)
Yeah, I mean, when I first started sharing my poems, you know, in open mic nights and things, my voice would shake, I'd go bright red, my legs would shake.

Helen von Dadelszen (17:08)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jacky (17:13)
I wish I'd had you there to take me through, because like you say, that courage in action, I kept on going, but it wasn't painless, you know?

Helen von Dadelszen (17:24)
Absolutely

and that's why my book is called Courageous Action because you need to take the action and it has to be courageous because everything in your body and mind will be screaming, danger, danger, don't do it. So you have to find ways of being able to do it even though you have these reactions in your body and with time as you saw it gets easier. You're collecting evidence that you can do it.

You're teaching your body how to be in more productive state. You're finding the techniques that work for you. And you're getting possibly good feedback also from the audience. And so that builds up your feeling of self-worth, tunes down the nervous system reactions, and allows you to share your ideas with the world with more presence and connection rather being overwhelmed by the nervous system.

Jacky (18:20)
Yeah, so part of this courageous action is really about expanding your capacity, the capacity for discomfort and being more observational, I suppose, about what's going on for you and also having that trust in yourself as you develop those skills that you can handle it.

Helen von Dadelszen (18:41)
Yeah, and trust is a key word here. When I think

Jacky (18:43)
Right.

Helen von Dadelszen (18:44)
about confidence and feeling confident about something, it all comes down to can I trust myself that even though my body is screaming, my hands are shaking, I've got all this negative spiral in my head, even though all of that is happening, I trust myself that I can deliver value, that I can connect and engage with my audience.

And this is something I personally go back to regularly. Trust yourself. You know, there are situations even coming on podcasts. I get nervous. It's normal. And

Jacky (19:20)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (19:21)
I'm like, that's fine. I know I've done plenty now. I haven't had any disasters yet, wood. And so I can trust myself that I will find the words. I will find the way of communicating, connecting and sharing my ideas.

And sometimes it requires more breathing exercises, more grounding exercises, more coaching myself in a positive mindset than other times.

Jacky (19:50)
I think that was one of the things that when I was first sort of performing

Helen von Dadelszen (19:55)
Mm.

Jacky (19:56)
was trying to figure out, well, what is the formula for when I shake and when I don't shake? you know, it's almost like trying to fix the wrong thing, because that's a coping strategy. It's not really a kind of a root strategy, is it?

Helen von Dadelszen (20:09)
Hmm. Yeah, so this is why I also encourage people to tune in to what happens for them. Individual because it's very, very individual, very personal. And what I find is a lot of people think that everyone else is the same or no one else is the same. So it's all like, well, you know, my hands shake and I say, well, some people, their hands don't really shake, they blush, you know, or their voice shakes. And even having that idea that

everyone's experiencing things differently can help you understand yourself better. And once you understand in what situations you'll likely be more nervous in which ways you shake. For example, I used to have a leg that would shake uncontrollably

Jacky (20:55)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (20:56)
when I stood in front of an audience. I don't have that anymore. I still have the heart rate. This heart rate goes up. My hand still shakes a little bit, but I know to expect those and that can also help.

help as well. Right?

Jacky (21:10)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (21:11)
instead of going, no, my hands are shaking, my heart is racing. I'm like, yeah, there it goes. This means this is important. This means that I'm ready, that I care about what I'm doing. And I know how to manage that to a state where it doesn't overwhelm me.

Jacky (21:29)
Yeah, and it's your body's reaction, isn't it, to that mass sort of adrenaline surge that's happened. And almost seeing

Helen von Dadelszen (21:33)
Absolutely.

Jacky (21:34)
it in those biological terms, I think, can help. It's funny when you were saying, you know, when you're saying around trust yourself and you're saying, even though I do EFT tapping and that's such a great set

Helen von Dadelszen (21:44)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (21:45)
up phrase, you know, even though I'm feeling nervous and anxious, I can trust myself to handle this. That's a really good set up phrase for someone to use EFT.

Helen von Dadelszen (21:51)
Yep. Absolutely.

Jacky (21:53)
And you do talk about tapping, I think, in your book. There's a little bit in there about it.

Helen von Dadelszen (21:56)
Yeah, I don't go into it.

I've experienced it. I've

Jacky (21:58)
No.

Helen von Dadelszen (21:59)
got friends who swear by it. But as I said, you need to find what works for you. Right? Some

Jacky (22:03)
Exactly.

Helen von Dadelszen (22:05)
people really find a great power song, know, something that really boosts them and they dance around

like crazy before doing something that works for them. I prefer a little bit of quiet breathing, maybe standing in the power pose, you know, to feel

Jacky (22:19)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (22:19)
stronger in your body. But you need to find what works for you. And it takes some trial and error.

and it's very individualistic. And once you find that you can create a little ritual of it, which also makes you feel safer, right? In control

Jacky (22:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (22:35)
of that. Yeah, I know I'm gonna do this, this, this, and that helps me and then I'll be ready. That can also help.

Jacky (22:43)
Well, it's part of that muscle memory, isn't it? If you're doing

Helen von Dadelszen (22:44)
Yes.

Jacky (22:45)
something in safe surroundings in your practicing and, you know, as you then go and bring it into an environment where it feels less predictable, you know, then that can be really helpful too. Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (22:58)
Yeah, absolutely. The more

we do something, and that's why it's important to practice and find these techniques in a low stakes environment, actually make it a ritual every day if you have to, so that when you do feel a tack of the stage fright, you know what to go and do. Because as you said, your brain goes offline and it can't think, what was that?

technique there was something about a four by

Jacky (23:24)
you

Helen von Dadelszen (23:24)
four breathing how do I do it you can't do it in that situation you need to

Jacky (23:27)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (23:28)
know it and be able to go to it and trust that it will work for you so this is why it's worth learning these techniques outside of the stressful situation and then being able to apply them as you said like muscle memory

Jacky (23:43)
Yeah, and I think there can be a bit of resistance to that, can't there, because it's almost like you don't want to go through even visualizing what the feeling is going to be like. And that is one other thing that you talk about in your book about practice and the importance of actually practicing beforehand.

Helen von Dadelszen (23:58)
Yeah, so again, like muscle memory, practice is really important and it feels awkward. Like I don't like practicing stuff. I feel stupid doing it, right? It's like in talking to yourself or talking on the video and then I go, do you have to watch back? Which is real torture, right? Listen and watch

Jacky (24:17)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (24:18)
yourself back. But it really does make a difference. It makes you feel more comfortable with.

how you're gonna stand, how you're gonna move, what your voice sounds like. I say always practice out loud because despite good intentions, sometimes, especially when we're nervous, we will know the words and we'll go, okay, I need to get these out as quickly as I can so I can rush off the stage or out of the meeting. And then we speak too quickly. We don't give space for the audience. We don't pause enough for ourselves to breathe and re-regulate.

We often go into a monotone or have a

Jacky (24:59)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (24:59)
shaky voice. And if we're well practiced, not memorized, well practiced in our points, then again, we can trust ourselves. We know our stuff. yeah, five minutes before maybe I will forget what I'm doing at a certain time, but you know well enough the structure and the end message.

or actually the transformation for your audience.

And if you keep

Jacky (25:26)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (25:27)
focused on that, you will deliver.

Jacky (25:31)
Yeah, I think also something about what I've learned is meeting myself where I am. So

Helen von Dadelszen (25:38)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (25:40)
when I performed up in Edinburgh, I just wasn't going to be able to learn the whole script. mean, it had like, I mean, I had about 70 poems in that show. There's no way I'm going to remember all those. And so I took a script up on stage and this is about like a very brave thing to do because it's not done, you know.

But I did that and another thing that I've done that I realized really helps me is if I'm running a workshop where I don't know anybody or I've just kind of been brought in, is making some contact even before the workshop begins where I have a bit of a laugh with someone or something and that just helps to...

make me feel connected with the people in the room. I don't know if you've got any other sort of hints and tips that you give people as far as, like I say, meeting, like meet yourself where you're at rather than, I need to fix everything through breathing through, you know, X,

Y, Z. Because it's not about fixing, is it? Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (26:34)
Yeah, yeah. No, and this is why

I called my business Present Potential. Because I believe everyone has potential in the present moment to communicate well. And if we are waiting to feel perfect, to be able to do it off script, et cetera, et cetera, not feel nervous, which honestly, I think is a fallacy anyway, we will never do the thing.

We will constantly wait, constantly refine, no, I'll put it off for month, I'll put it off six months. Get it out there. Good is better than perfect. And I think the script is a great idea. Did anyone boo you off the stage? Were there any rules saying that you couldn't bring that?

Jacky (27:24)
No,

the funny thing was, is I got two reviews for that show. One was very complimentary and one wasn't. But the

Helen von Dadelszen (27:30)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (27:30)
one that wasn't kind of goes back to some of your other points. I was very, I was very much a victim of my own I've now got the spotlight and so I need to rush through this because I'm taking up people's time, which

Helen von Dadelszen (27:43)
Yeah.

Jacky (27:43)
of course is not helpful for anybody. But I think, I think it's probably a natural process to go through with that, rabbit in headlights thing. And now I need to

get through it as quickly as possible. But what the feedback was was that actually, because there was a narrative in between the poems and the feedback was that I didn't actually trust my poetry enough. there was this funny narrative that was going in between, but what the feedback was is actually the poems were lovely

Helen von Dadelszen (28:10)
Mm.

Jacky (28:10)
and thought provoking, but you rattled us through them all, you know?

Helen von Dadelszen (28:16)
you

Jacky (28:18)
I think that is more sort of like you said, that courageous action of sometimes we can't fake our belief in ourself, right? Like I needed to hear that feedback of people actually getting, yeah, it was really useful.

Helen von Dadelszen (28:32)
Yeah, and that was useful. And next time, yeah, next

time you could just lean on the poems and maybe even be brave enough to have a 30 second pause in between each

Jacky (28:44)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (28:45)
of them. At that stage, you can regulate your nervous system, which is helpful. You can breathe so you've got a nice full voice when you need it. But most importantly, you're giving the audience a chance to process, to make the connections

Jacky (28:59)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (29:00)
in their own head, because

poetry especially is very emotive and it brings up lots of things and it takes time to digest them and so

Jacky (29:10)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (29:11)
you know that's feedback was helpful and I'm glad that you did it even with a script and now you can say okay what is that feedback that I would like to integrate for next time or not right because it's just one person's opinion does it fit you and you might be

person who continues to read the poems. don't see any like I don't know enough about poetry reading and things but I don't see that that's a bad thing and I always say to my clients as well if you go to a meeting with a few notes about the points you want to make I don't see anything bad with that. It means that you've taken the time it's serious it's important and you've taken the time to make the notes so you don't miss them.

That is actually great because I think, especially in meetings, we're rushing from one to the other. Often people don't even know what the subject is, let alone have thought about how they're going to contribute. So, you know, it's not the be all and end all to have a little crutch to hold onto. And the other tip that you shared, think is great as well, meeting some of the people in the audience that you're going to work with. This allows us to, rather than have the audience as sort of a

sea of blank faces, unknown, know, scary people judging you potentially, you've broken the ice with a few and then you know a few people's names. They're more likely also to connect with you and give you a smile, which always encourages us. So that's a great one as well. In any event that you're doing is go and say hello to a few people.

Jacky (30:56)
Yeah, yeah, really bring the humanity back in.

But what's your advice for when you're not really getting a reaction from the audience, because that can be very disconcerting can't it? We're

Helen von Dadelszen (31:08)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (31:09)
human beings that want that sort

co-regulation of where we're connecting or watching out for you know body language and eye contact and things. What's your advice for people when it feels like there's just tumbleweed going through?

Helen von Dadelszen (31:25)
So

this happens online as well a lot, right? lot

Jacky (31:28)
Mm-hmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (31:28)
of events or even meetings, people don't have a camera on. So it's really hard to connect. And then there's the situation, and you've probably seen this Jacky where you have someone frowning or closing their eyes or, you know, being on their phone and your automatic, I think, reaction is the negative, right? They're frowning because they don't agree or believe.

or trust what you're saying, but maybe they're concentrating, maybe that's a concentrated

Jacky (31:57)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (31:58)
face. They close their eyes. Well, maybe they just want to sit and hear your voice and process things rather than be distracted by everything else they're seeing, right?

Jacky (32:10)
Mm.

Helen von Dadelszen (32:11)
Maybe they're not actually checking their messages on their phone, they're taking notes. So we

Jacky (32:17)
Mm, yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (32:18)
automatically, because of the negativity bias,

We automatically search for danger and interpret things in a negative way. So I would first challenge, are you sure that you're interpreting these things? And the other thing I think you can do in terms of lack of feedback, maybe rethink the way that you've designed your presentation, your speech, your meeting. If you want the feedback, maybe there's an activity you can give the audience.

Maybe there's

Jacky (32:50)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (32:51)
a question that you can ask them. Maybe you turn it around and get them to drive what the subject is. Now, obviously this all takes a lot of trust and confidence in yourself, but that might be the way that you want to go because I think we approach a lot of our communication situations thinking there's only one way of doing it because everyone else does it that way and I've always done it this way. But often I see

people assuming a whole lot of ways that they have to do things, they're not the most useful for the audience or the speaker. And so I would challenge, is there something else if you really do want them to engage?

Jacky (33:33)
I think, yeah, I think really seasoned speakers, there's a difference between them wanting to be like an instrument of change versus a vessel for change and creating

Helen von Dadelszen (33:46)
and

Jacky (33:46)
that vessel for change through what they're saying, which might mean that they then...

ask more of the audience. I wonder if really good speakers actually end up speaking less and kind of really involving their audience as much as possible.

Helen von Dadelszen (33:59)
Yeah.

Jacky (34:00)
Sort of motivational speakers, I'd say. Obviously not all orators, but yeah, it's interesting, the different...

Helen von Dadelszen (34:02)
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I mean,

there are very few situations that I believe have to be run like a lecture.

Jacky (34:15)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (34:16)
Here's my information sharing with you one way. There it is. Good luck with it. And I'm finished. We know that people learn better when they're involved in the content. And if we're talking about

transformation and motivation if you already get them to do something. And it might be just write a note to or schedule something in their diary or share something with the person next to them. That breaks up one, the eyes on you, but it also makes the audience more likely to continue on that journey after you've stopped speaking, which I think is mostly, in most situations I've seen, exactly what you want them to do.

Jacky (35:00)
Yeah, exactly. Feel like they've engaged and also they've

Helen von Dadelszen (35:03)
Mm-hmm.

Jacky (35:03)
got something they're taking away with themselves. What about not taking yourself too seriously? I remember

I was

Helen von Dadelszen (35:08)
you

Jacky (35:08)
in...

I, well, there a story about that, about when I, before I went out to do the Edinburgh Fringe, I was going to do a festival closer to home and a whole bunch of things happened. You know, there was, there was a train strike, blah, blah. I didn't end up getting on the radio to promote it. So 12 people turned up and it was like this, my God. But actually it was a really good lesson in, yeah, I'm not that important, you know. And I've had another situation where I was performing this really, really emotive poem.

in a restaurant environment, so everyone had something to eat and one of the waiters literally came in front of me and clattered about in front of me picking up cups and glasses and plates and things. So yeah, what about those kind of scenarios where you're really, things are outside of your control about how to manage things and you do have to eat humble pie a bit really.

Helen von Dadelszen (36:09)
Yeah, so this gets a little bit back to what we were saying before about being human. And what is actually fortunate about such situations is that you can use them to create a common experience between you and the audience, right? And

Jacky (36:25)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (36:26)
people love that. If you can refer back to the clumsy waiter five minutes later, you've got the audience and not in a mean way, but in a like a jokey way.

Jacky (36:37)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (36:38)
or that only 12 people came out. These can be really connecting opportunities between you and the audience. Because people love

to feel part of something, part of something that is that situational comedy piece. I was there

Jacky (36:53)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (36:54)
and this funny thing happened and instead of it, you know, really annoying you or putting you off, you make light of it. It's part of life. And so people will remember that.

Jacky (37:06)
Yes and going back to that negativity bias thing when that first happened with the the first festival I had to do I had to have a real mind set shift with myself and I was like okay there's still 12 people showing up and how do I actually show them appreciation because some of my friends were going to come and they called off and you know so it's like well actually 12 people are still paying to come and see me so I made like raspberry muffins and elderflower cordial and

Helen von Dadelszen (37:34)
thing.

Jacky (37:34)
during the

interval or was meant to be the interval. I just sat with them and it

Helen von Dadelszen (37:39)
What?

Jacky (37:39)
was like we're just have a chat you know and it was it was

Helen von Dadelszen (37:41)
Yeah, and how lucky are they to have that experience

with you?

Jacky (37:46)
thank you. was a really lovely, was quite a seminal moment for me, actually, like you say, of almost like breaking that fourth wall. I think I had an idea of a very thick fourth wall that really crumbled in that

Helen von Dadelszen (37:59)
Yeah.

Jacky (37:59)
situation, which was very helpful for me. So

Helen von Dadelszen (38:02)
Yeah.

Jacky (38:02)
yeah, those moments that feel like failure are often where the lotus flowers grow, right? Like I'm mixing my metaphors, but yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (38:08)
Absolutely, I love that metaphor.

But the other thing that I mention in the book is also these logistical things about the registration or the technology not working or these sort of things. These are also things that I find that if I know the setup and have thought about maybe this is my negativity bias, but think about what happens if and be ready for

Jacky (38:36)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (38:37)
that.

Usually very few of the things that I think could happen happen and in any case if they do they don't derail me. So I think

Jacky (38:48)
Yes.

Helen von Dadelszen (38:49)
if you think about these things and what happens... So for example I have a workshop this weekend usually I have between eight and twelve participants. I've only got three at the moment maybe there'll be some last minute ones and that's quite cool.

And so I've offered the workshop to a few people for free, people who I'd like to see my work and yeah, I'll have to. change a little bit the way that I set it up, but I use it as an opportunity to see what does this mean to hold this space for a much smaller group for three hours?

Jacky (39:23)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (39:24)
Gives you the opportunity to explore and find different ways. So I think if you keep your eyes open for opportunities and we know that we learn from failures.

and always saying, okay, how can I make this the best? Like you did with your muffins and cordial.

Jacky (39:38)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (39:40)
It's again, creating moments of connection and showing up as you authentically are. And people react to that in a really positive way.

Jacky (39:51)
Yeah, it's really shelving the shoulds, isn't it? Because I imagine, you know, when it's a workshop of three people or whatever, you know, I know for mine, when with the people that came, I should have done better in getting more people along or I, I should act professional in this way, which means I act like I'm not bothered and you know, it's like, you know, it's, yeah, we can really should ourselves.

Helen von Dadelszen (40:13)
Yeah, I love that shelving the shoulds. I love it.

Jacky (40:15)
Yeah, I've got to make it alliterate you know, like it's going to be

like, it's got to be some alliteration there. Yeah,

Helen von Dadelszen (40:21)
Very powerful because it's more memorable.

Jacky (40:24)
yeah. Is there anything else that you'd love to share that I haven't asked around courageous action?

Helen von Dadelszen (40:31)
Yeah, there's a concept that I don't really explain in the book. And you know, when you write, you think, maybe I could have changed or maybe the next edition

Jacky (40:39)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (40:40)
would include this. But it's the concept of courageous action expands your comfort zone.

Jacky (40:48)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (40:49)
I like to think of the comfort zone as sort of a circle and all the things that you like to do and feel comfortable doing fit within that. And then

Outside is the scary stuff and it can be quite far away like my god I would never do that or just like I don't feel ready for it and what I like because I'm quite visual I quite like the idea that courageous action is not stepping outside of your comfort zone But with each courageous action so little step You are encompassing more of the opportunities so

Jacky (41:25)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (41:26)
With hindsight, you'll see that your comfort zone has expanded to include these things that previously felt too scary. So

Jacky (41:35)
Yeah.

Helen von Dadelszen (41:36)
I really like that visual as well. And the comfort zone is not a fixed place. It's flexible. you know, there's the growth zone and then there's the stretch zone. So how can we expand our zone so that

more opportunities feel comfortable. Even if it's a little bit scary, but you know you can do it because you've done it before.

Jacky (42:03)
Yeah, yeah. And that really sort of builds on that capacity idea that you were talking about as well, doesn't it? It's an extra sort of, yeah, expanding your circle, pushing the edges of it and getting ever increasing circles rather than ever decreasing.

Helen von Dadelszen (42:18)
Yes, exactly the idea of growth

and continuous improvement.

Jacky (42:24)
Yeah, so what's your workshop on Saturday? What are you workshopping with people?

Helen von Dadelszen (42:28)
So this is my signature workshop on the voice. It's called Your

Jacky (42:32)
Mm-hmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (42:33)
Voice, Your Calling Card. And we explore what your voice says about you now, right now. It's fascinating. I get the participants to speak to each other and listen to each other with their eyes closed and try to hear what the person is like behind the words. And so

Jacky (42:55)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (42:55)
they get lots of feedback, lots of data on

that, lots of adjectives, and then they compare it to how they would like to sound. And then the whole work around that is bridging the gap between how they currently sound and how they would like to sound, what's going to support them in their life or in their work. And then I go through my four P's of vocal variety. So

pitch, pace, power and pause and how to use them. And then we explore and I live coach people and it's such a fun, interesting, different workshop that most people have never even thought about their voice, how they're using it, how

Jacky (43:37)
Mmm.

Helen von Dadelszen (43:38)
they could be using it to support their message.

Jacky (43:41)
and what kind of people come onto your workshops

Helen von Dadelszen (43:43)
A huge variety, typically more women than men, but that's not by design. The people who want to improve their communication skills in general, professionals who feel a little bit caged in their voice, so they're not being listened to, or they've always had a soft voice or a quiet voice, or just curious people who...

who are interested in this concept or have always wanted to sing, for example, or that sort of thing. So real range.

Jacky (44:19)
fantastic. And so if people are interested in that or they're interested in getting the book, how do they find out more about you?

Helen von Dadelszen (44:26)
best place is LinkedIn so you can find me by searching for my strange unpronounceable name otherwise

Jacky (44:33)
It's not unpronounceable, it's just me. It just is to me.

Helen von Dadelszen (44:41)
you can follow me on Instagram or YouTube and you can find my book in Amazon and Kindle or paperback or on my website which is courageous action dot CH

Jacky (44:56)
Perfect. Well, listen, thanks so much for joining me today and for sharing all of your wisdom. It was great talking to you.

Helen von Dadelszen (45:03)
Thank you so much, `Jacky for the opportunity.

Jacky (45:06)
Thank you, take care.