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In these Deep Dive Snippets, I'll be sharing some of my favourite moments from past episodes of the podcast.
51% of UK business owners have experienced burnout since the start of the COVID19 pandemic, but do you really need to hustle to the point of burnout out when starting a business to be successful? In this snippet, I talk to James Hoffman about the dangers of hustling and what he would've done differently in the early days of building his business Stone Mile Coffee Roasters.
Listen to the full episode here π https://open.spotify.com/episode/1Fru7GPgAflAe7eIuOHgZh?si=sGxOPsh7TZ2Br5qoBNEe5g
Dr Ali Abdaal is the worldβs most followed productivity expert and author of Feel-Good Productivity, the brand new book that reveals why the secret to productivity isnβt discipline, itβs joy. In his podcast, Deep Dive, Ali sits down with inspiring creators, thinkers, entrepreneurs and high performers to help listeners build lives that they love.
Aliβs cheerful style, positive approach, and well-researched content have made him a trusted voice when it comes to productivity. The internet means that we have access to more knowledge and information than ever before - but it can also be overwhelming. So, Ali and his expert guests focus on simple, scientifically proven, and actionable steps you can take to make real changes in your life.
Aliβs a firm believer that happiness isnβt the result of success - in fact, happiness is the key to success in the first place. Ali made this discovery while working as a doctor in a chaotic hospital ward. In the past, hard work had been the answer to every obstacle in his life. But no amount of hard work was going to combat panic and burnout.
So, Ali dedicated himself to figuring out a new approach to productivity - one that focuses on enjoying the journey and working towards truly meaningful goals. Deep Dive, with its authentic and engaging conversations, will give you all the insights you need to do just that.
James Hoffmann 0:00
So the hero bullshit of entrepreneurship was grind myself down. I'm fucking hero working super hard. I'm doing it right. And it's such bullshit. And it's such a toxic aspect of all work, and I hate it. But I definitely worked 110 hour weeks for like months, ground myself down to the point of deep misery, and there is no quicker way to hate a thing you love, than to work like to work on it like that, right? Like, I really love coffee, I definitely got to the point, I was like, I should quit coffee, I should just I hate this. I hate this. I hate my life. I hate working in this, I should just do something else. Because I worked in a stupid way. And I burnt myself out physically and emotionally because people do that. Because the world says good for you get the grinder you know, I mean, what's your thing, it's yours, pull yourself into it like No, don't, don't do that that's really bad. What you should do is start with enough capital, that you can hire people to work with you pay them properly, and then work in a healthy manner. Do you really just have work in home, be separate, that's helpful, turn off, don't work at weekends or don't work some days a week, it's very satisfying any doors to pull yourself into a business, it is rewarding, it's enjoyable, but you're just burning through yourself so fast. And so we're regret not starting with probably twice as much money home are people out of the gate and going home at five o'clock, do you I mean, like just be done. Just turn it off, turn off the bridge, go home, enjoy life, you can build this thing, you don't have to sacrifice yourself for this. The downside is you need more money to start with. So that's that's the trade off. We didn't have that money, we didn't know we needed it, we had enough to buy the physical things, not enough to build the systems hire the people. And so we just worked ourselves to the bone and it was miserable. I regret it. And it was a mistake.
Ali Abdaal 1:48
Okay, on that point. So I feel like sort of, at least in the online, online discourse around starting businesses, circa 2013 to 2019 was the era of the hustle culture movement saying that look, you're starting from nothing, your 20s are for hustling, you've got to grind yourself to the ground, work on weekends work on evenings to make that just stop that thing. Since pandemic I think has accelerated this, there's a lot more like that kind of approach of actually sustainability is important, etc, etc. But what a lot of the kind of pro hustle people say is that look, when when you don't have that startup capital, like, and you're working your crappy job, and you need to start the business, there is not much you can do other than kind of work between, I don't know, 7pm and 2am, and also working weekends, and all that kind of stuff. And I guess you're just hoping it's just as a season of time so that you can build enough money to build a business off the ground because it will take blood. Theoretically, it takes blood, sweat and tears to get a business off the ground from from moment one. And a lot of entrepreneurs that I've spoken to who have done that kind of grinding themselves to the ground say that, yeah, it wasn't ideal. It wasn't really a happy time. But without that period of crunch, which for several years, potentially the business wouldn't have got it gotten off the ground. So I guess my question to you is, do you think that you would have been able to do it in a more nicer, sustainable way? Or do you think it was necessary to put in the blood to get this get this off the ground?
James Hoffmann 3:17
I think I think the tricky bit is that if I had had the understanding that I have now and a little bit more capital, then yes, we could have built the same business far more enjoyably. I don't think it would have been a bigger business necessarily, but it would have been a more enjoyable process to do that. And I think certainly, you know, I may start more businesses in the future. And I know that I got a little bit hustler when YouTube started to kick off for me and I you know, I mean, I was gonna feed this a little bit because you know, he feels when you when it feels like you pouring just straight gas on flames and this just every everything you put in comes back 10 times you like, Mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. But addictive. Yeah, but then you still end up with it. Well, where are you going with this? Like, what's the Yeah, all the big questions. It doesn't you might get to where you don't know when you get to a point slightly quicker. But what's the point? You're trying to get to? Jesus anytime quicker. Is that better? So, look, I'm not saying that there's a perfect way right like to back in 2008 to raise another 100 grand would have been really hard. You know, the, the system that we live in, makes it much easier to raise 1 million than 10 grand. Yeah, we can get a 10 grand bank overdraft. But I feel like if you go and pitch big and you make big promises, yeah, you can raise lots of money on the on the promise of lots more later. But if you want like a 10 grand overdraft, please the bank's like no. I turned over like 30 grand a month and they're like, Uh huh. Like 10 grand you know what I mean? Like pre financial crisis. You could get like a month turnover as overdraft was the sort of rule of thumb Yeah, and post financial crisis. Is the bank select Ma, which is really unhealthy for for loads of small businesses it was it really restricted access to capital from 2008. Probably to 2015 was really difficult, right? If you wanted less than 100 grand, the moment you wanted serious cash to make big promises to roll out this giant thing that IPO or there'll be an exit much easier, Jeremy and for a while as I could easily raise 2 million quid in a way that I couldn't raise 200 grand. That's what that's messed up. But that's that's the way it was back then. There still is now
Ali Abdaal 5:32
reminds me of that quote, which is that? I think you probably would have come across it that if you owe the bank 200,000 That's your problem. If you owe the bank 200 million, it's their problem. Yeah, it's weird, weird system of capitalism.
James Hoffmann 5:47
But that's what I mean. Like, it's messed up, and you know, but yeah, so, you know, I'm perhaps talking about this idealised world where I could have found another 100 grand, somewhere in a way that that didn't result in me signing over control or direction, or, or you know, what I mean, some aspects of that would be later important. But I do know that it had we accrued more capital at the start, we could have worked in a way that was less damaging to our physical and mental selves. Yeah. And, you know, I think you can justify us culture or you're like, I just, I don't think I'm proud of those years, the way that I worked. I mean, am I proud of the way we got to? Yeah, maybe Sure. But I don't like that. That was the route and I certainly wouldn't wish that on anyone else. And I would wish for, or encourage a system or a way of working that wasn't that gentleman like, I would hope for other people. You know, I don't feel like I suffered, you should suffer too. That's a sickness that infects our culture. I'm a, I suffered, I would like you not to suffer, because this sucked. That's sort of my feeling about life. So yeah, I'm not saying it's a perfect way. It's a messed up system. But that's my experience and how I feel about at the end of it, so I
Ali Abdaal 7:00
guess, okay, so let's say if we, if we could rewind 13 years, and you have the same understanding you do now, but you're in those market conditions. Yes. It sounds like he probably would have spent more time trying to figure out how do I actually raise the startup capital I need such that I don't burn myself out, rather than, Oh, currently 100 grand. You know, there's always other things we could do if we knew the value of it, but I guess, at the time, when you're at that stage of life, you're like, oh, I'll just, I'll just work harder.
James Hoffmann 7:27
Yeah, that's absolutely it. And certainly the everything around me told me that was the right thing to do. You know what I mean? That was the culture around entrepreneurship was yeah, you work you but there's no one else can do it for you to your business. Get out what you put in, and I believed it. And but I don't you know, I don't want someone watching this to hear me say, Yeah, you should hustle. Yeah, you should suffer. You know what I mean? I don't feel comfortable saying those words to someone.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai