Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Future-proof your leadership with High Octane Leadership, a place where business leaders—whether by title or aspiration—share cheat codes for unlocking workplace excellence, lessons learned along the way, and insider tips for future generations of next-level professionals. With a career rooted in building people and businesses, Donald Thompson is an award-winning CEO, speaker, and author who empowers leaders to scale with purpose. Over the last 25 years, he has helped startups and enterprises alike drive cultural change, unlock performance, and deliver exceptional results through strategic leadership.
Find him on LinkedIn, and listen here to learn how you can become future-proof too.
Don - 00:00:04:
Welcome to High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. This season, we're diving deeper with more solo episodes, where I'll share the experiences that have led to recognition by EY, Forbes, Fast Company, and others. Not as a boast, but as milestones on my entrepreneurial path. Growing multimillion dollar firms to successful business exits and building high performance teams with a global perspective. I'll reveal the insights and strategies from my journey and share them with you so that we can win together. Alongside these solo episodes, we'll have industry visionaries and thought leaders, and we'll explore effective leadership. Ready to empower your leadership journey with real success stories? Let's embark on this transformational journey together. This is Donald Thompson. I'm here with my good friend and podcasting partner, Mr. Bob Batchelor. Bob, welcome back.
Bob - 00:01:00:
Thanks, Don. It's good to be here. As always, we get to be in a different studio together for a time other than being virtual. So we see each other all the time, but we don't get to sit across the chairs in podcasting. So we're talking about today and what's going on today. And on top of everybody's mind is DEI. Well, I probably shouldn't have said that. That thing we used to call DEI. So what I'm going to do today is I'm going to play the role of. Questioner But I'm not going to give you little jokes and serve you up little softballs. I want to put a little spice on this. So I want to be a bit of an inquisitor, a bit of devil's advocate to see if we can really tease out and get to the main topics in a way that we do. But I want to really kind of grind in on it today.
Don - 00:01:56:
Listen, I think it's great. A couple of things and then I'll turn the microphone to you is that one, DEI is under attack. DEI is on trial. And so I think if you come to it with that approach, we can have a great dialogue about how to really think about things differently in this crazy world.
Bob - 00:02:13:
Okay. Sounds good. So listeners, remember, Don and I are close. We're like two peas in a pod. But if it sounds like we're getting a little testy today, we're just teasing out ideas. And sometimes devil's advocacy is the best way to do it. So this conversation has to begin with President Trump. Back in office. Aggressive isn't even a big enough term to say what's happening right now. Aggressive, I mean, geez, the guy's taken over the entire nation. So aggressive, I mean, I don't know how more aggressive you can get. But specifically with federal programs, DEI is facing unprecedented challenge, hostility, hostility at the highest levels, not just a little bit of pushing it aside, but open hostility. So what do you say now to companies, to leaders, how do they safeguard what they've achieved over the last several years? When this is like open season on anything related to DEI and the federal government.
Don - 00:03:17:
Yeah. One of the things that is even a little bit more challenging than what you described is that there is a halo effect and a negative construct to all of the noise about DEI and the federal programs, the federal government. In that it is now creating an environment where there's a litigious nature for private companies. So there are organizations that are literally, right, not theoretically, literally scrubbing corporate websites for anything related to DEI and looking for anything that may look like DEI is being used to disenfranchise those that are already in power, white professionals, whatever phrase you want to use, and suing these companies for their DEI policies. So yes, the federal government is scrubbing DEI from any literature, scrubbing DEI jobs, firing people in those roles. All of that can be done by executive order. But also, it is not a dog whistle anymore. It is a call to action, right, for folks to really attack organizations that are standing strong with DEI and create mass confusion. And so with that as a backdrop, I'll answer your question, and what are we saying to folks? Number one, you've got to start with the basics. So I do talk about what DEI is not. It's an interesting twist, but I no longer answer to people what DEI is, what I'm saying in this moment. I start my communication with what it's not. It is not quotas. And the reason that's important is because that's a false narrative that is driving media consumption, is that DEI is about quotas. So I have to start with what it's not. It's not about quotas. DEI is not about disenfranchising any other organizations or groupings of people. What DEI is, is how do we create a better workplace for all? And then I transition into examples of. I'm no longer defining the terms because that can get hijacked. I want to tell you what it's not, and then I want to ask you or others or our audience a few questions. Do you believe that women should be paid the same wage for the same work? If you answer yes to that, you're a pragmatic, reasonable person. Doesn't matter what you call it. Do you believe in parental leave for a husband and wife, man and woman, anybody that has kids? Do you believe in parental leave? That's a yes or no question, right? Most people achieve that. Most people, if they're having a family, they want some time off, to bond with that little one, right? I ask a question very, very simply. Do you believe that people should feel safe from harassment at work? Yes. Do you believe that you should expand the number of people you're looking to hire? By recruiting from more than one single university. So that you actually can hire the best people by having a larger pool of applicants. And once I get people nodding their head yes, then I have to look them in the eye and say, now, what are you against? And most people are not equipped to answer that question when it's framed that way. Because most people are lost in the negative narrative that is really about political power, not pushing forward. How do we create an environment where we can win together, work together, take care of our families, build for retirement? All of the things that 75 to 80 percent. Of Americans just flat out agree with, right? And so that's how I framed the question in this crazy times, talking about what is DEI in the state of chaos that we're in. And that's how I start to answer it.
Bob - 00:06:54:
Okay, so let's go right into the gut punch. What do you do? And this has had to have happened recently. What do you do when you know the person's saying yes, but their eyes, you know they're lying?
Don - 00:07:10:
When you... You don't try to win conversations, you try to expand thinking. And when you give people space to share their thinking, a couple of things happen. Number one, people may have a critique or criticism that's actually very valid. I'll give an example. I had a business leader, and this was a little, you know, a couple months ago, even before the crazy, but this is just a good example of having an open dialogue. He said, why should I support something that's not tied to how I make money in the business? That means for this leader, no one had constructed how diversity, equity, inclusion increases innovation, productivity, retention. Nobody explained to them how they're going to sell more products because their website has a diversified view. Nobody let them know the different groupings in our country, how much women are in terms of a buying power unit. African Americans as a buying power trillion dollar unit, the LGBTQ as a trillion dollar buying block. And since nobody explained how DEI helped him make money, he had that valid, legitimate roadblock. That reinforced his own bias, that reinforced his own privilege, that reinforced why he shouldn't do anything or care. But when presented with data, he at least became curious, not because DEI was all of a sudden good, but because his nature as a business leader, his focus and how he's compensated is about growing revenue, expanding audience, and having higher loyalty with your clients. Because I linked those things together, we at least were able to start to have a conversation. Secondary, there's other folks that are good at saying yes, and they're never going to change. If I can tease it out. I shrink the dialogue and I keep it moving. What I'm not in is in the business of convincing somebody that doesn't want to be convinced. Two, I'm not that good. One, I don't care that much. Three, they ain't going to change anyway. And I don't like to waste oxygen because oxygen may be precious. Who knows what Trump's going to do next? Oxygen may be precious, I don't want to waste it.
Bob - 00:09:22:
So as long as somebody is open-minded enough to listen to a business argument. So you have to convince them that this is a business challenge, not a crusade.
Don - 00:09:34:
I like the way you phrased that. I'll sometimes say this isn't a social justice conversation. This is a business growth conversation. But we're saying the same thing. And most business leaders that I interact with. It at least gets them curious. I talked to a business leader and I'm very, I'm happy to be pressed on DEI's value. Because I talk to a lot of leaders. Billion dollar businesses and I'm behind the door with them, with their board, and I get the whole tsunami of good, bad, indifferent. So I have a lot of data points, first hand data points, right? One of the things that's really important when you're talking to leaders, you have to remember how they're motivated and compensated and what they like is recognition. And if you don't wire in any conversation to take those things into consideration, that's why you're losing the audience. So, again, back to all critiques aren't wrong. One of the weaknesses of most DEI practitioners that I've worked with, met, and see. Is because they've not been in the C-Suite, they don't understand the language of the C-Suite well enough to package their message in a compelling way to people that are financially motivated. If someone is financially motivated, then everything else is kind of foo-foo stuff. But if you tell somebody that's financially motivated that your people leadership programming. Will allow you to drive more results from your high performers because people want to be led by people they trust, like, and are highly competent. But if you're trusted, highly competent, and not liked, people are not going to do their best work. So as a leader, why wouldn't you want to learn how to phrase things in your one-on-one or your group meetings not to, DEI is not, lowering standards for people? That's another just flat out, highly used phrasing that is just not true. But it's been effective because we're no longer in the truth arena. If we were in the truth arena. There'd be a lot of things different in our world right now. So truth is not as valuable. Right, anymore. But the way you package things is. And so when you say DEI is not about lowering standards, then you can get that people manager to say, wait a minute, if I say this with a little bit more empathy, if I say this with a little bit more support, but I still let my team member know these are our targets, we didn't hit them last quarter. I want to understand from your point of view, Mr. And Mrs. Employee, why do you think that happened? What as a manager I can do to help? What the company can do? Because we still have to meet this standard. It is not. Tulips and flowers, but it's just not treating people like they don't matter. Right? Why would you try to beat someone up in a meeting that you need to go be productive after the meeting? I had to learn that. Right? Mr. Football athlete background, command and control, all these, that's 10, 15 years ago, Don, right? And you can drive results through, but people don't want to stay. The next opportunity they can bolt, they do. So you have high turnover. And so I had to learn how the packaging doesn't lower a standard. It just makes you more thoughtful. It just makes you more approachable. It just makes you a believer that people are your biggest asset. How many companies have that in their vision, mission statement? People are our biggest asset. We love our people.
Bob - 00:13:15:
All of them.
Don - 00:13:16:
And then treat their team like shit. Like, you got to lose me with that. Right. Because if you think about diversity, equity, inclusion, and then you just put that phrase aside for a minute and that you realize that if you have frontline professionals, if you're working at an organization that is in the financial space and you have tellers and different things, if you're working in the food space and you're a big grocery train, you have people are interacting. How are your people going to treat your customers? If they're not treated well. And so when you think about it like that and don't put a term on it, and you're thinking about things like employee engagement, workplace effectiveness, workplace communication, well-being, now all of a sudden we're driving to a point of unification because the dog whistle is that DEI means race, sexual orientation. And we don't want to deal with race because I'm not racist and we're post-racist now. We're post-racial now, right? Which is all just total bullshit. But. They don't want to talk about it. And so when was the last time, I can't ever remember this, getting somebody to give me lots of money by talking about something they don't want to talk about? I've not been financially successful by doing that. So I got to find a way to talk about the same things in a way that relates to a broader group of people. And there's nothing wrong with that. That part is good and makes sense.
Bob - 00:14:41:
Yeah, let's stick on that for a second because you do have an insider's perspective, both in the C-Suite and in boardrooms. Do you take that same idea to the chair of board of directors at a big company? Do you nonprofit? How does the message change? When it's that highest level.
Don - 00:15:05:
We have to think about the impact of the attack on DEI, and there is a very significant impact, but it's not just DEI. It is the narrative in our country now that if you are not in the celebrity class or the wealth class, you need to fend for yourself. I mean, that's what's happening, right? Like if we just like... Direct and honest about it. So when you in government say we're going to stop all grant funding, and we're just going to turn off the spec. Okay. That's your right to do it. You won, but let's now. So I'm not even talking about whether that's right or wrong morally. Anyway, right or wrong. That's what you decided to do without understanding the downstream impact. Of doing that. And one of the things that was really interesting is funding was cut and some engineers were fired. And the administration didn't know that part of the group they fired were nuclear engineers protecting our weaponry. So again, people are like, Don's really political. No, I'm about highly functional. Right? Winning has its advantages. So if you win an election, you do what you want. But nobody voted for dysfunctional.
Bob - 00:16:21:
That's for sure.
Don - 00:16:22:
Right? Like you can do the things that you believe are necessary, but you don't have to be mean-spirited and you don't have to be dysfunctional. And then the downstream impacts are generational. Because if you shut down the Department of Education, again, I'm not for or against that. That's not my platform. My platform is impact. It's not just going to affect black and brown kids. It's going to affect millions of kids that will go to school hungry because of those programs. What are you going to do with that? If you cut Medicare and Medicaid and people can't get treated, in the case of some organizations that I work with, there's folks that are battling alcoholism. There's folks with intellectual disabilities. What do we do with the people in our society that cannot protect themselves? And if the answer is, we don't care, we're not going to do anything anymore, that's starting to come across loud and clear. And so when people are talking about DEI, this woke stuff and different things, I think we're kind of missing the point a little bit. And what we have to recognize from a business construct of they said very clearly. In Project 2025, what they were going to do when they got power. And we as a country voted for this. This is what happened. We did this. So then we as a country have to figure out how to deal with and manage these impacts, right, that here's the thing. Most people I talk to, their employee base is not more productive because of all this noise. It's less.
Bob - 00:17:56:
Yeah.
Don - 00:17:56:
Because people are afraid. People are scared. There's no steadiness. And that, quite frankly, if I now flip it and put my financial cap on. I'm going to rename, repackage, but I'm going to get more work. Because of the instability now that is being interjected into the workforce. It's a business problem being created and exasperated, right, by a lot of the different policies. And DEI was an effective scapegoat, right, for all those things. When I'm talking to folks that, last thing I'll say on this point. Fear is a powerful motivator for short-term behavioral change. And that's what's being used in our arena right now. And everybody's kind of scurrying. But what I had to do from a business standpoint is take a step back and go, okay, one, our firm, The Diversity Movement, we purposely didn't do a lot of work with government for this very reason. We're universities because where do they get most of their money from? From the government. And it's just unpredictable at best, independent of who is. Power, right? It's just an unpredictable thing to me as a business owner. Whereas if I'm talking to a CEO of a corporation and I make my case, they'll up or down it. Right? And there's not a lot of shadowy things about it. They're going to buy from you because they believe you can help them win or they're not going to buy from you because they don't think you can help them win. I can operate even under duress with that as a North Star, right, to people's behavior. Right now, the big backdrop with DEI, but then business in our country, is we don't know day to day what's going on. And that's the volatility that we're going to see.
Bob - 00:19:40:
Yeah, and volatility just causes chaos. And chaos, nobody likes. The markets don't like it. The people pricing your eggs don't like it. All the problems. It's all downstream, just like you said. So if you listen, so say you take, we take a very non-political topic about something, say like the loneliness of young males.
Don - 00:20:05:
Okay.
Bob - 00:20:05:
This is not a white, black, orange, green, purple problem. It is a problem for everybody. If you undercut the education system, People can't go to school. They're not getting good education when they're in K-12. They can't go to college. They don't have a technical college or community college access. They're just going to continue to stay in their basements. Playing video games. Now, I got nothing against video games, but when video games replace family, culture... Foundations, institutions that help young men become productive citizens and part of a larger whole. When you forget that because you're downstairs playing a video game where you're killing people for 12 or 14 hours a day. That's a problem. And people don't put those pieces together.
Don - 00:20:58:
That's right.
Bob - 00:20:59:
The instability that leads to... Goes from the ocean to the lake, to the river, to the stream, to the tributary. Now we're down to the creek.
Don - 00:21:11:
That's exactly right.
Bob - 00:21:12:
And I think you and I, we both come from backgrounds where the creek was what got us to where we are now, but there's no hope in some respects if things don't start to change.
Don - 00:21:24:
I think that's right.
Bob - 00:21:25:
It's, yeah, it's mind numbing. There's so much us versus them in the media now. I was reading this morning about how Target, people are making political sport out of where companies were and digging up their old DEI statements and now thrown in front of their face if they backpedal a little bit. What do you do if a CEO comes to you and just says, I don't know what to do here?
Don - 00:21:52:
I'm getting that conversation a lot. I'll use three buckets or three ways to think about this or three ways to bifurcate the discussion. There's a third of the population, a third of business leaders that were looking for an off-ramp. And the executive orders, the Republicans went in the House, the Senate, and the White House, and they already own the Supreme Court. And that's just factual, right? They're owned by the current administration. Are going to do what they do, think what they think. And there's like... I'd rather watch paint dry than try to convince them of their standing. That's their right to do and believe. Then there's a third of folks that understand the goodness of the work. They understand that to have a successful business and team that a diverse population, whether it's generational, five different generations in some companies these days, whether it is geography, having a global footprint, whether it is people that are scientific versus non-scientific. You can think of all the different ways that our talents blended together meets for building a better company. And that's just really. Pretty fundamental, right, to business. And so these CEOs believe that, and they want to continue to foster that. But they don't want the smoke. They don't want the noise. They don't want the impact to their stock price. They don't want to be on the wrong end of a lawsuit. Right? And so that third are reframing. They're changing their language. Instead of diversity, equity, and inclusion, they're using inclusion. They're using terms like employee engagement is one that we recommend. They're talking about workplace effectiveness, organizational effectiveness. And these are not compromises as much as real-world pivots, given the state of play in business, politics, and pop culture and society in general. And then there's a third of the folks that are hardcore. They're like, look, we don't want the apples of the world, JP Morgan, Costco. They're like, we don't want anybody telling us how to build our company. DEI has worked for us. We want to continue to learn how to grow and treat people better. DEI for us is not just for Black and Brown professionals. DEI for us is about intellectual disabilities. It's about having physical access to our buildings. It's about having access to all of our digital component for blind and low vision professionals. It is about introducing veterans into the workplace. To them, DEI is about supporting single family homes. DEI is a part of really taking care of the culture and the people that make up the culture of their company. And they don't want to change that. They don't want to change what they're calling it. And they're strong enough in their leadership. They're strong enough in their board agreement that they're moving forward that way. So to me, that's two thirds. Of organizations that I can still have a very meaningful, high impact conversation with about how we can be supportive. And that in the sea of negativity is encouraging.
Bob - 00:25:09:
Yeah, it seems like the forces are really lining up on one side or another. Um, so political. Um, What do you say to leaders who... Are in the one third bucket in the middle. They're reframing. They believe, but they're afraid. Because when I think about it, I'm always trying to look, we talk so much about CEOs, C-Suite leadership, but you and I both came up, you didn't know a CEO when you were growing up. Neither did I. I knew some guys' dads who owned companies, but like-
Don - 00:25:49:
I read about them in books. Yeah.
Bob - 00:25:50:
Exactly. So I'm always trying to look at the people, like what's happening to the people, the people around us. When I walk through the office, I'm thinking like- I know if I'm hurting or not, there are people who work for me or with me that are really, on the edge.
Don - 00:26:04:
Yeah.
Bob - 00:26:05:
One way or another. So how do we balance that? So people are doing the right thing by sticking to their DEI. Goodness, but they're giving in by reframing. But it's a weird message to your people then.
Don - 00:26:24:
And I get this question also, so I'm pretty well versed.
Bob - 00:26:27:
It's like situational ethics, perhaps.
Don - 00:26:29:
If you make it an ethical thing, you create a debate. When you think about it, as a business and how businesses change a brand. Why does a business change a brand? Well, one, maybe they want to refresh something because they're launching a new product, a new initiative. They want to take the company into a new direction, right? Sometimes companies change brand because there was some negativity within the company associated with that brand. They want to move away from that a little bit. Another thing that people do when they're looking at a branding is from marketing techniques and tactics. They have data that just shows that it would resonate with a broader group if they change the way they message who they are as a company. Those things are not... Frowned upon. When you think about them in business terms, but because so much around diversity, equity, inclusion is emotive. Then people have a hard time with, why are you pivoting the package? But there's no one that says that a 1990 Ford Mustang should look like a 2025 Mustang. That evolution of that car, that vehicle, right, is expected. Expected to change and grow and get better. For the third that are looking to continue to move forward but rebrand. I don't have a problem with that at all. Because the work that I do has never been about what we call it. And that's why I'm winning. Because I'm outcome based. I'm not stuck on any one thing necessarily of how I describe what I'm doing. But the outcome still needs to be a better workplace for all. The mission to me is so clear that the details of how to get the mission done are fluid. That doesn't make me weak. That doesn't mean that I'm no longer an ally. It makes me smart, effective, and it gives me the chance to sustain the program, or in this case, our business. Right, for the long haul. And so I think that when we get emotive, we're like, oh, you're taking a step back. You're kowtowing. I think it's really smart, right? If, let's take it a different example. Let's just take a fight. Let's just say somebody literally came into this studio and punched me in the face. Am I going to keep sitting here with my arms folded while the person punches me in the face? No, they're going to punch me one time, maybe two. But the third time, this microphone and their forehead are going to have a very detailed conversation about the future. Right. So at a certain point, in order for me to survive that moment, I have to change tactics. I have to change positioning right now. I'm relaxed. I'm not fearful. No one is coming in the studio to attack me just yet. You know, who knows? Right. Like, I mean, you know, but my point being is you have to, you have to change. To achieve an outcome. In that crazy example, I just used my outcome as safety. I had to change something in order to get to a safe place. Well, if someone's attacking my business, then I have to change something in order to be in a safe place and continue to operate, continue to pay people, continue to grow, continue to have my ERGs. Instead of calling them employee resource groups, maybe I'm using business resource groups. Right? But smart things that allow the work to continue, I don't put in the same category as shrinking away. I think that those leaders have to really walk a very fine line between the things they believe in that work, that are effective, and the cost of noise. The cost of noise is really expensive these days.
Bob - 00:30:34:
From your position, Coaching, being on boards. Does it give you a chance to talk a little more about that long view? Because so many CEOs, especially public companies, we've both dealt with a lot of them. It's just 90-day cycle. What's happening? Where's my day-to-day scorecard, minute-to-minute scorecard? Are we seeing thoughtful people start to think about a longer term? Or is it too soon to... Here's the thing that scares me. You can have good people who want to do good things running companies. But the ground is so shaky that they don't know what's going to happen. Like normalcy is you do the right thing, you sell your products, goods, services, you have success. That's normal. That's normal. What kept presidents from saying outlandish things was the press would come down on them and it would change the perception of them. Truth mattered. Now nothing matters. And so the ground is shaky and we're all, you know, after a while, maybe for a couple of minutes, you can balance. After a while, you start getting, your legs get tired. So what's the ramifications or what have you, it's so crazy to say this. It's been three weeks, four weeks, but it's real. You're feeling it. I know you're feeling it because we talked off air about it. So what do you say to these people? The people in the C-Suite and in the board of directors. Are at least as freaked out as we are. As the normal person working for them is. So what do you do?
Don - 00:32:26:
So one, I don't have all the answers for this. I have some perspective, right? Because it's a big question. Couple thoughts. So one, let's just use boards of directors. Is to help the C-Suite and the C-Suite leaders of a team. Manage risk. And build strategy. And managing risk is a very important focal point. In this chaos. So let me give an example. One of the organizations that I work with was grappling with this very thing, right? Like. DEI matters. It matters to the way we treat our clients. It matters to the way that we recruit. It matters to the way that we promote and mentor. We have it built into what we're doing. And most of the boards that I've worked with. Even those that are more conservatively leaning. Right. Have a understanding and appreciation that the well-being of the workforce matters to drive fiscal growth. If we just keep it like really, really simple, that the well-being of the workforce matters to produce financial growth. And then when you break it down in that simple function. And then you ask a question. This is the board level. This is the rank and file. If we are going to disband all of our DEI programming. We still have left this one simple truth. That the well-being of the workforce. Allows us to drive financial performance. So what are we going to do instead?
Bob - 00:34:26:
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good.
Don - 00:34:28:
Right? And the reason that's such an important... Conversation is because it grounds everyone in the room. It takes away the vernacular. And then it says, let's now get to the point of how do we create and grow our organization, right? And I try, Bob, when I'm talking with people across different industries, different levels in an organization, bring things down to some fundamental truths. And then once we can agree on those, we're at least not having an argument. We're having a conversation. And conversations on ideas, even if we significantly disagree, is a good thing. Right? I have no issue with that, independent of what people decide. That's a good thing. Debate is good. Pushing against each other's ideas is good. And I think we've lost so much of that in the last three weeks, six months, where everybody's pissed off at everybody else all the time about something. So we are now losing ground as a country because we don't have a true north of what we're believing in and on that can unify us. And that's happening at a political level, but it's also happening within our companies because of all the noise. And that. Is going to have a longstanding fiscal impact to businesses. Because what do employers want? They want loyalty from their team members. Well, if you don't show people loyalty, they don't give it back. So then you're going to have people that are working at 70%, 80% versus 100% of their potential. You're going to have people that if somebody pays them a dollar more, they're out the door and taking all the intellectual capital that you invested with them, all the training, it's just going to walk out with them. These are impacts that are just not smart. If you say to somebody, you have to come into the office five days a week, again, it's your right to do that. And you're going to do it in. In a week. Okay. I'm on the board of a small firm and I won't get into that right now, but we moved from one day a week. In the office too. And we talked to the team about it three months ago. Because listen, and that's the two things. One, we want to make sure we have office space that is worth coming into. So we had to work on that with the small company, even in the crazy times. And the second thing is we want to give you plenty of lead time because we respect the fact that some people have child care that they have to work through. They have pets that they care. There's just all kinds of different things in people's lives that change. People can get their head around it. But give me some like. Space to work that in reasonably unless there's some kind of corporate crisis, which there isn't with the companies that are doing that. They're not. They're just reminding people, which is part of strategy. Boss, employee, don't forget it. Come back to work. That's what, if we really want to talk about what's happening, that's what's happening. Because independent of DEI or other things, there's been a shift of employee empowerment, employee ability to move and dictate terms of how they work. More and more people moving into the gig economy and all these different things. So there was less control of the system, the corporate hierarchy. And so this moment. Became about a couple of things. Number one, putting that thumb back on people. And that's what's been done in a lot of ways. Second thing is leaders don't like to pay for stuff that's not being used. And this part, like, I empathize with. Like, they don't want to walk in these pretty buildings that are empty. And then they see on the financials they're paying millions of dollars for buildings that are empty. Like, that's just a... Rightly or wrongly, I get it. Like, that's just something that does not compute, right? So we're going to use this space. See this gym in this office? Some people need to be in there because you're working for the thing. And then the third thing that you have to look out for and why leaders are deciding. Is there is some data that supports if you're building a collaborative team. It's hard to do that in Zoom culture. Because leaders aren't trained in that. People were just getting to the point of learning how to lead by walking around and spending time with people and helping them on their project. So with those three elements, there's certainly a case for more in-office work. But if we look at some of the dictates of CEOs and the way they're doing it. They kind of start to sound like Trump. And people need to recognize if that's what we're voting for. And that's how we're going to be treated. That's one of the reasons I like being an entrepreneur. Like I work in a big company now and well compensated to do so. And I'm thankful that I'm part of Workplace Options and The Diversity Movement is now a Workplace Options Company and totally pleased with that. Right. But as an entrepreneur from the ground up. There is a confidence, in knowing I can create my own job. Which actually makes me a better employee. Because I feel Psychological Safety. Whether someone provides it to me or not, because I'm unafraid. Right? Of someone, creating a negative environment just because I spoke my mind. I have a privilege and then I have an experience level of that kind of toughness, right? That mental toughness. But most people, when we think about all the chaos that's going on around DEI, one of the impacts is that Psychological Safety in companies is going down. Because people are now, watch this, they're going to be less open with their manager or the boss. What if I say this and it gets misconstrued? And so all the things we've worked for to try to create those unified company cultures is taking a step back. We'll figure it out. We'll help companies. We'll make money doing it. But it's going to be a little bit of a rocky time.
Bob - 00:40:36:
Yeah, one of the things you mentioned there was crisis. And are you seeing or hearing boards and CEOs talk about having their crisis plans in place? Because there's... Traditionally in PR, there's always a cry when a crisis arises and people are like, why didn't we plan for this? They could have been planning for it. They just never did. Are you seeing any of that now?
Don - 00:40:59:
You make, I'm going to take a note of that. I'm not. The current landscape. Is so right now focused that people cannot look beyond the moment that we're in. But to your point, we're having to redefine what crisis is inside the organization. And that internal comms and that crisis PR thought process needs to become more of a standard, right, versus something you just do, right, under duress. Because, and I'll be really, really specific, there's so many external factors that are happening every week in the world. That is keeping your employee base unsettled. And the worst thing a CEO can do is say nothing. One of the things that I've talked to boards and CEOs, listen, if there's a school shooting, I'll just use this example. Or when there have been and when there will be again, because of the way our laws and culture is structured. No one's asking you to come out for or against the Second Amendment. They're asking you to say to your employees, we know that some of you are hurting and some of you are more fearful that have young kids that are still in school. And if you need to adjust your schedule a little bit during this time, you want to make sure you're picking up your kids in different things. We want to be as an organization, we're going to remind you that we have employee assistance programming, that your managers are open-minded about the well-being of you as an individual and a family, and that we care. And that we're open to reasonable flexibility during this moment, and we want to let you know that you care. That doesn't mean what you as a CEO believe politically, it means what you're responsible for as a leader in this moment. And that is something that I'm highly encouraging CEOs to speak out and share their care and empathy real time with their teams. CEOs are the last defense, quite frankly. They have a higher trust barometer than politicians, and that's flipped over the last 20 years. And one of the things that I read, and you send this to me, the Edelman Trust Barometer each year. And leaders have a responsibility to be the guiding light of what truth can be again. Because unfortunately, it's not in our politics. I'm a hardcore independent, so I can have any debate anybody wants about any of this. Because here's the thing. Watch this. 75% of Americans believe in term limits. Why don't we have them? Oh, because the people that are in power like to just grift off us. If you look back at the last time that the Republicans had the House, the Senate, and the presidency. They didn't. Democrat. Nobody's done anything about immigration in a serious way in the last 25 years. Why? Because people want to blame the other side and it's just a political tool. Nobody actually wants to fix the problem. Number three. Democrat, Republican, doesn't matter. How many times have we run up against the debt ceiling every six months about whether or not we're going to pay our bills? And watch this. If the government shut down, who still gets paid? Military doesn't get paid. Fair workers are furloughed. Congress still gets paid. Anybody on this earth that wants to have a political discussion with me, I'm easy because all of them aren't doing their job and haven't been for 50, 100 years. So I'm not with any of them. And those are just a couple of examples of the power structure that is no longer for the good of the citizens. It is for the power structure to continue to grow and exist. And there's some variation. Based on who's in charge. That is very true, and people are feeling impacts of that. But the bottom line is those dudes, ladies, they don't work. They're all chasing microphones and they don't work. And then when it comes to actually making an independent decision on what they believe, they're thinking about reelection, not doing what's right. So I welcome this isn't the forum, but I welcome a political discussion with anyone because it's all crap. All of it.
Bob - 00:45:27:
Oh, yeah. That's the double-edged sword. It's folly, but it means so much to so many people because a single decision to gut the federal workers who are the undercurrent of making a government this size work, it's just, it's ridiculous.
Don - 00:45:46:
It's bizarre.
Bob - 00:45:48:
So I'll ask you one more tough question and then we'll wrap up. But you and I have both been... Working directly in DEI for a handful of years. You're a black man who's been very successful. Very successful. Blessed and you're the first to admit it. But we both have friends who they haven't got there yet. They're still climbing. They don't know what to do. What do you say to the person who is DEI forward? Maybe they worked in DEI. Maybe they don't. But... They don't have that safety net. They don't have anywhere to go. And they come to you and say, DT, I'm ready to give up.
Don - 00:46:39:
Every fight's not for you. I have judgmental bone in my body like everyone else. I have bias in my bone like everybody else. But I'm also pretty pragmatic. So when folks come to me that are in the DEI space and, you know, jobs are drying up in that space, government's laying off, people are cutting back on different things. Every fight's not for you for the long term. Sometimes things are moments. And I do recognize that I can still be strong, vocal in this moment because it's not because I'm untouchable. Right? Cause, you know, and I've shared with you, that I'm taking some hits for my stance on DEI in a pretty significant way that have hurt me. But it didn't make me stop. In fact, it's made me angry. More motivated. But I don't think everybody is built for the same pain threshold. And people need to do what's best for themselves, period. And that may sound weird, but I don't need somebody staying in a fight that they're not equipped to be productive in the fight. I'd rather know you're on the sidelines. Because at this moment, clarity and courage and a little bit of toughness is pretty critical to this situation. And you got to talk bolder in many cases. Right. The Diversity Movement, we haven't changed our name. We thought about it. We considered it. Like these are real pragmatic things. Right. But we're trusting the quality of what we're doing. And the alignment to business outcomes, which we're very serious about. That's why we didn't do this as a nonprofit. That's why we went for B2B clients first and foremost. That's why we stayed away from government because government is not measured. The return on that investment. They're just not. They make up numbers all the time. They have an Office of Budget Management, and the people that did a good job, they fired them. And the inspector generals, anybody that did, they fired them. And now they're just going to poof the magic numbers to do whatever they want to do. But... I think if it's time for people to step aside, do something different, they should do that. Don't agonize about it. Like there's craziness going on, right? If you got a life raft somewhere else, put that life raft on. What do you want me to do? Go get on the boat with me and the water's going to be rocking, you're complaining all the time about how rocky the water is. Like I don't need that. I'd rather have fewer crew that's ready for the waves ahead and we're going to push through it. Right. Then more people on the boat and more people that just aren't ready for that kind of mission. And, and I don't judge you either way. Because who knows what I'll be doing 10 years now, 15 years from now, but in the moment when I'm focused on what I'm doing. I'm not changing. I may change my language. You're going to hear me talk a lot more about Psychological Safety, employee engagement. I can't wait to read a white paper you and your team are putting together at Workplace Options, where it's the second year that you've coalesced it right under your leadership, which I'm so proud of, right? Like you work in a different part of the organization, but we still partner together. But, you know, you all are launching a Workplace Options psychological safety study, and it's now 14 countries. Is that right?
Bob - 00:50:07:
18.
Don - 00:50:08:
18 countries that you all surveyed, and you're looking data rich with data, the through line. Between what are the highest levels of workplace concerns and then what leaders can do about it. And you know what? You're not saying DEI one bit, but you know what you're doing? You're helping create a better workplace for all. And if we can get more people focused on that, and then people give me a little grace when I say DEI less and Psychological Safety more and employee engagement more, I have to protect my overall strength to stay in the fight. So I have to make some pragmatic changes depending on the audience. Right? It's like if you're a comedian, right? And you're a black comedian. I'll tell the same jokes to a black audience, white audience, mixed audience. You got some different flavors to how you're rolling based on the audience. That's all we're doing with these. Based on the audience, just changing up the season in a little bit. But we're still going to cook an amazing meal and hopefully create a better workplace for all as long as people have me.
Bob - 00:51:15:
Well, that about says it all. And I appreciate you tackling some of these questions that a lot of people can't or are running from or aren't safe or aren't in a psychologically safe space. So I appreciate that openness.
Don - 00:51:31:
Yeah.
Bob - 00:51:32:
And until next time, we'll, we'll kick it again.
Don - 00:51:35:
All right. Thanks, Bob. Thank you for joining us on High Octane Leadership with Donald Thompson. Today's episode is a step in our collective journey towards leadership excellence. Remember. Every story we share and every insight we gain is a piece in the puzzle of our leadership journey. For more insight and detail, hit the subscribe button so that we can stay connected. For deeper information and more episodes, go to donaldthompson.com. Continue to lead with vision and purpose. And until we meet again, embrace your role as a high-octane leader in the ever-evolving world of business.