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Megan and Bill introduce a new initiative undertaken by the High Conflict Institute to help organizations and companies deal with high conflict situations and high conflict employees: the Conflict Influencer™ Certification program.
High conflict situations in the workplace are increasing as workers return to the office. Global anxiety is higher than normal, and for those who may have a high conflict personality, the conflict may become even more unrestrained.
In this episode, Megan and Bill introduce a new initiative undertaken by the High Conflict Institute to help organizations and companies deal with high conflict situations, high conflict employees/stakeholders/boards, or just about anyone. They discuss the need for advanced high conflict training and why it’s beneficial for entire organizations to learn the necessary skills to unite and and reduce conflict. They discuss this new initiative, the Conflict Influencer™ Certification program in detail, in this and the next episode.
CONFLICT INFLUENCER™ CERTIFICATION COURSE
BOOKS
ARTICLES
Our website: https://www.highconflictinstitute.com/
Submit a Question for Bill and Megan
All of our books can be found in our online store or anywhere books are sold, including as e-books.
You can also find these show notes at our site as well.
Note: We are not diagnosing anyone in our discussions, merely discussing patterns of behavior.
Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Megan Hunter:
Welcome to, It's All Your Fault on TruStory FM, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you identify and deal with the most challenging human interactions, those with someone who may have a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddy.
Bill Eddy:
Hi everybody.
Megan Hunter:
We are the founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In this episode we focus on high conflict situations in the workplace and we'll introduce our just released conflict influencer certification course.
But first, a couple of notes. If you have a question about a high conflict situation or person, please send them to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com, or on our website @highconflictinstitute.com/podcast.
You can find all the show notes and links at that address as well. And please give us a rate or review and tell all your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. Now let's talk high conflict.
Bill Eddy:
So today we're going to be talking about high conflict in the workplace. We're hearing more and more about that. And of course, we've been working over the last few years with people with high conflict situations in the workplace, and there's all types. You could have a customer who's just yelling at you over the phone or in person. We hear a lot. One of our favorite articles on our website is, Dealing With Your Narcissistic Boss. And so we hear from a lot of employees who have a narcissistic supervisor own up to the head of the company sometimes. How do you manage that?
Then we have coworkers who get into conflict with each other. Some of the tech companies we've consulted and trained with, call it sharp elbows. They've got brilliant people who just have a hard time getting along with their coworkers. So we've really addressed this in many ways in terms of training, consultation, et cetera. And now we're starting to look at how can we help organizations at the organizational level?
And so we're going to end up today talking about certification and how we can really help individuals, managers and the whole organization. That's what I've seen. That's what we've been seeing.
Megan, what have you been hearing from people in various roles within the workplace about high conflict situations?
Megan Hunter:
Well, it's interesting. There's always been conflict in the workplace and like you said, it's for 15 years now or going on 15 years, one of the number one search term on our site has been managing my narcissistic boss. So it tells you there's a lot of conflict out there.
So what's different really, I think in the past two years during the pandemic and now, I think entering the post pandemic phase, is more conflict. And I see that as, those who would not really qualify as a high conflict personality, but just are having a lot more anxiety and fear. I think that has increased conflict and that's what we're hearing from organizations all over.
And then those who may have a high conflict personality are creating even more conflict. They're louder. They're blaming. If there were any restraints prior to the pandemic, those restraints are gone at this point. So they're causing a lot more problems for those in management or those in the human resources departments.
People that work in those departments, if you're listening you know exactly who we're talking about here, those people who blame constantly and take a victim role. They just cause a lot of disruption either within their team or in their department, or even if they're in leadership. We do see this a lot and hear a lot from organizations, that it's all across the board at all levels.
Bill Eddy:
Yeah. So we've been doing a lot more trainings in the workplace and now we've created a certification course. So let's talk about this. What is it and what are we hoping to accomplish?
Megan Hunter:
Well, I'm glad you asked Bill. As you know, it's a new deal for us to offer this certification. Where it came from was a need for something beyond typical training. Now I wouldn't consider our training anything close to typical because we are, I really do believe that what we teach is next level. And I don't say that in a narcissistic way, but just it's we come to organizations and present material about understanding this high conflict personality.
And then we also give actual solutions, beyond hitting a pillow or escalating your voice. We have solutions that actually match what is needed for that high conflict situation. So people in organizations really like that. And they've been asking for something more like, "How can our employees get skilled up in this?" So putting our heads together we've come up with this certification course for people in the workplace.
And it's really pretty interesting because you can take a lot of online courses and I know there are a lot of certifications out there, but I don't think there are any that really address high conflict situations. And then what we did that's a little bit different with this beyond our normal different is to include a live lab so that people can practice the skills.
Bill Eddy:
So what we have really is some online information, online videos with instructions. We go over a lot of our skills, calming upset people with empathy, attention, and respect, teaching people how to write emails using our BIFF method, brief, informative, friendly and firm. Helping people solve problems by making proposals and analyzing them.
So it's really skills focused, which I agree with you. I think we're much more simple and practical, but what we've really learned over these nearly 15 years is it really takes practice. And that's what we really are offering to people. So it's not just theory, it's practice and people have really seen things work.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. These live labs seem to be what's getting organizations pretty excited about this because I've heard you say it a thousand times in trainings, Bill, that you really have to practice this because these skills are different from what we're used to doing. So if we all have a default system and how we react to people or respond to people, 80% of us probably respond and react in the same way to almost everyone.
And one of those, for example, might be instead of using an EAR Statement when someone's upset or blaming, EAR being empathy, attention and respect, our default is to usually argue with them or keep explaining something to them or continue trying to reach resolution. But in that moment you have to stop. You have to stop yourself and do something different from what you're used to doing. Something different from your default.
This is why our live labs are really important, is to learn how to stop yourself. Because it's just so natural and normal to want to come back at someone or argue or explain. I'm an explainer. So I'll try to explain and explain. Well, in that moment that person probably doesn't have a lot of access to the problem-solving logical parts of their brain. And so it's really illogical for us to keep trying to get them to use logic when they can't access it. So we have to do something a little bit different.
That is a big differentiator I think in having this certification. I think practice will make all the difference for people in these organizations as they go through the course, learning the skills and then practicing them. We have two live labs and the first one is where they're going to learn those skills that you mentioned, Bill, so how to analyze their options. I call it dilemmas and decisions because high conflict situations, high conflict people present us with dilemmas all the time, just repeatedly consistently.
So because our default system says, "Hey, I'm just going to do things the way I usually do." We need something that will stop us and make us analyze our options and review that list of options for our own high conflict thinking, as you developed in your book, It's All Your Fault, Bill. And it's funny to be talking to you about this as if I'm telling you, but we're actually telling our listeners. So they're going to learn how to stop themselves by thinking, "Okay, I've got a dilemma. I need to analyze my options."
After that's done, one of the options will probably be, do nothing. One will probably be, respond verbally and one could possibly be, respond in writing. And so then we teach our techniques of using EAR Statements for verbal and BIFF Responses in writing, like if you're responding to an email or you have to write that difficult letter, or I suppose even in a performance review, it could be somewhat helpful. Right?
Bill Eddy:
Absolutely. So what seems to be happening is people are caught by surprise, by high conflict behavior. So they react automatically, emotionally. What we do is give people methods to respond with instead of your ordinary reaction. Like you said, it's in a sense some instinctive if somebody just blurts out an attack and says, "Well, you're an idiot. You're doing it all wrong. Let me show you." Our temptation, our gut feeling is, "No, I'm going to show you." And that usually makes things worse not better.
And so we have our methods of responding. So when you're caught by surprise, you go, "Wait a minute. I'm going to do this." And you do this and it calms things. Because what we're dealing with today is a lot of people who are anxious, upset, angry, distressed, depressed, all of that. And they don't know really what they're doing either. And so our skills are simple, but give simple direction to how to deal with things like you said, calming and verbal conversations and in writing. So we really, really have a chance to take care of all of this, make it so much simpler.
Megan Hunter:
Really the goal with this is to get people practicing and truly to get whole organizations skilled up in this way to learn to communicate differently with everyone because it isn't just about communicating with or handling that high conflict person. It really can calm an entire organization and we've seen that work in companies, in law firms where they require by policy that everyone use BIFF in their emails. Make sure that it's a BIFF Response to use EAR when communicating with others, to have this respectful communication.
Not everyone has to understand all the brain parts and what's happening, but they do need to use these skills as a matter of, "How we communicate in our organization." As you know, you can so quickly calm another person. I'm interested Bill, to know what you would think about EAR as a calming technique for an entire department or BIFF if several people are copied on an email and someone responds with a BIFF Response to reply all and everyone reads that. I think it's a teaching moment for them and a calming moment. Would that be true?
Bill Eddy:
Oh yeah. Yeah. And I think what's interesting. We're human beings and we're influenced by the people around us. And so that's certainly been figured out in drug and alcohol treatment because sometimes you got to change your friends if you want to stay clean and sober. Well, in the workplace if you change the team, if the whole team learns this, then that can really have a great impact.
I remember doing a training for 1,100 people with one of our city government departments and then talking to, well, I'll tell you it was the district attorney's office and have an annual meeting and they wanted these skills. So 1,100 people got these skills in three hours. It was a short training. But as you mentioned BIFF, BIFF is particularly good one for those written responses. So I had a conversation with the district attorney a couple weeks later and she said, "Well, everybody's BIFFing each other now."
And that's something, they get a nasty email, someone says, "Hey, you ought to use a BIFF with that." And the whole organization knows. And they know when each other is using that or not. And so they get a hostile email from another department and they can go, "Wait a minute. You know about this. It's like, oops, I forgot." And so they use a BIFF Response.
But I think part of what's great, like you said, up and down an organization is these skills don't matter what position you're in. You could be the head of a company and if you use these, it's going to help your public image. And you could be near the bottom of the company and yet using these skills will help your life be happier, will help people respect you more and not give you opportunities for growth within an organization.
So what we've learned, it isn't really what position people are in. It's what methods they're using to communicate that make people want to be around them or not want to be around them. And the stress on a whole organization ripples throughout. So if the whole organization has these kinds of skills, it's almost like an immunity to high conflict so that they can manage things and recognize, "Hey, I can see how stressed you are, me too. Let's see what we can do. Let's resolve these dilemmas," as you said.
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. That's interesting what you said about immunizing an organization which you also figured out for the family courts. Let's immunize the family before they become entrenched in this protracted conflict and stay in this high conflict mold so to speak for the rest of their existence, really, and just destroying the children. And I guess in an organization it's much the same, why not immunize and have them trained up in this and make it a matter of policy. And encourage people to do this and continue teaching new employees because it will make a more civil workplace.
Bill Eddy:
So I have a question for you. Did a company actually write into their policies that people should respond with BIFF Responses?
Megan Hunter:
Yeah. We've had a few do that. And it's interesting because we found a few bumps along the way. If someone says, "Well, you didn't use a BIFF Response, or remember to use your BIFF." It can get weaponized by some who mean harm with it in a way, or trying to be passive-aggressive. But in general, it's been very highly successful. And I think of one law firm, quite a large law firm who implemented it and they just said, "Look, we're using EAR and we're using BIFF. And that's that when we communicate in our organization with each other internally and externally with our clients, and opposing counsel and courts, wherever we are, we are going to use BIFF and EAR."
And it was really interesting because it didn't take, but I think it was an hour or two of training on this for that organization. And it was all levels from managing partners down to paralegals, to receptionists. And I guess within less than 30 days they'd completely transformed the atmosphere. By then, they really had it more ingrained and they just kept using it. We've seen it in smaller companies, larger companies and it works.
Bill Eddy:
That's so good to hear and we're getting more and more requests for this kind of organizational level training. And it just makes so much sense. A community using the same techniques and realizing and helping each other out," Oh, what am I supposed to do?" And they say, "Remember, you can just keep it brief, because it's a BIFF Response," things like that.
And I want to mention we're using these terms a lot. It may sound super simple, but when you practice it, it takes a lot of practice. And it is simple at one level, another level it's hugely addressing complex brain behavior and interpersonal behavior. And so it's the practice that really makes it work. And in a sense, you practice every day because people get hostile emails every day. But you don't need to generate more of them yourself. It's very exciting to see people really turn conversations around using these techniques and having people calm down, and get along, and be happier and more look forward to going to work.
Megan Hunter:
Right. And bottom-line, that's it. This is about people. This is about humans who don't want to drive into work with a knot in their stomach. I've been in that situation myself. I remember my morning commute with a knot in my stomach thinking, "Ah," just dreading that day again and interacting with that particular boss. And I remember doing happy dance when that person resigned and moved on to another company, the whole department did a happy dance.
But I think when you have happier people, of course you have a calmer environment. You really will have happier employees, much satisfied employees. They will not dread coming to work. But the one of the other significant advantages here is that I think most people understand that people with high conflict personalities take a lot of time and energy. And in a company, any organization, time is your friend or your enemy.
You need to be focusing on your organizational goals, and bottom-line, and generating revenue, and acquiring clients, and servicing clients and just doing the best you can. And we want to think just like in the legal field, attorneys going to the practice of law, thinking they're going to get to apply the law in their cases, when there's all of this other high conflict activity going around and they have to manage all that, same thing in an organization.
If you use these techniques, we find that there's just a lot less time spent on all of the dilemmas and disruptions that high conflict situations create. And I think of one organization I was consulting with, who from one simple email, like a two liner. It resulted in 11 hours. I counted the hours, actual man-hours that management, HR, me the consultant, had to engage in, I had to spend to address this one email. Now I was brought in late.
We could have prevented some of that if we were brought in a little bit earlier but, "Well, let's have this meeting, let's have this meeting about it." It just isn't necessary. If the person receiving the hostile email had given a BIFF Response, it would've circumvented all of that. And it doesn't mean it cured the person who sent the email. However, there are other things you can do.
We have the new ways for coaching programs that we have can help coach someone that really struggles with these interpersonal issues and can help them become more productive, unless they're so high conflict that they end up leaving. They might say, "Heck no, I'm not participating in any coaching. I don't need it."
Bill Eddy:
Actually. That's a real good point because what we found when we've done training organization wide is that some people leave because it really stands out. Their behavior is exactly what we're talking about and they can see that they don't want to change it. And some people do, some people try to change it, but it's not unusual that we see people leave. People know that the culture is changing into one that's more cooperative. And if they're a bully and the way they behave is not something they want to change, they're going to change organizations to another one that's got less structure and less methods for managing them.
And interestingly on this, from the cases I've been involved in and that I've studied, it's very common that organizations let a bully, for example, stick around much longer than they should. They figure it out after a year. And then after three years they say, "Okay, we really just have to let this person go." But over those three years, there may be 10 other people that have quit that they wish they had kept.
And so much of this information helps people see when behavior really is over the top and some bullies can be retrained in a sense like those sharp elbows in the high tech companies. But some of them can't and need to be moved out. We really help with that. We help it get clearer. And the coaching you mentioned, I think it's so important when you see one of these situations beginning, is to give the person some coaching and in many cases they can get on track and do okay or do really well.
But some I've had consultation cases where they say, "We have a middle manager who just writes these terrible emails. Should we fire the person or what?" And I said, "Don't fire them yet. Teach them BIFF Response emails and see if they can learn that and do that. And if they can't, then that tells you they're not going to change, because it's such a simple method with practice." So it's really helpful for organizations to know it isn't just skills for everybody. It's also understanding where you may need to draw the line.
Megan Hunter:
Next week, we will continue talking about high conflict workplace situations focusing on a listener question having to do with the BIFF and EAR communication skills and when they're used against you or with you, I guess by a high conflict person who has a decision-making management role. So that high conflict person is turning these skills around and making things hard for you, which makes sense. This can have a really high impact on both the individual and the organization as a whole.
So send us your questions to podcasthighconflictinstitute.com or submit them to highconflictinstitute.com/podcast. Tell all your friends about us. And we'd be very grateful if you leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast.
And if you're dealing with a high conflict situation at work or at home, keep calm and use your skills. You'll find the missing piece.
It's All Your Fault is a production of TruStory FM. Engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Ziv Moran.
Find the show, show notes and transcripts @trustory.fm or highconflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.