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Join NABR in partnership with Corp! Magazine for our CEO & Executive Thought Leadership Series, where Jennifer Kluge sits down with C-Suite Leaders to get their insight and expertise.
NABR is a service organization igniting greatness in companies and their people.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:33:24
Jennifer
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of CEO and Executive Thought Leadership. I am your host, Jennifer Kluge, and today we have a very special guest, Sandi Harvey. She is the president and founder of Exodus Consulting Group and an award winning strategic consulting and leadership firm that she launched in 2017. Sandi is known for developing culturally centered inclusion strategy and transform transformative workshops.
00:00:34:05 - 00:01:05:05
Jennifer
She has worked across multiple industries, helping organizations build inclusive, high performing cultures. Sandi, you've also published the book The Inclusion Architecture Blueprint A seven Pillar Strategy for Transforming Workplace Culture, a powerful framework that equips leaders with practical tools to embed inclusion into the DNA of their organizations. Sandi, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you.
00:01:05:07 - 00:01:08:23
Sandy
Thank you. I'm honored to be here with you.
00:01:09:00 - 00:01:35:07
Jennifer
Now, full transparency for everyone listening today. I have worked with Sandi. She's absolutely phenomenal and I boast about her services. So forgive me if I if I go fangirl here a little bit in the interview process. But, you know, with every entrepreneur it takes courage, takes strength. I always like to ask, how did you start? Why did you start your own business?
00:01:35:09 - 00:02:00:12
Sandy
So this is a very good question. And immediately when I started, I don't know that I knew the answer to that question. Over the years, I realized that I was at a point of burnout and doing things that companies do, repeatedly doing the same thing and not getting results. And so I really felt like it was time for me to launch.
00:02:00:12 - 00:02:23:18
Sandy
I had done consulting before for about five years. When I first moved to Michigan. So I knew, you know, the framework of what to do, but I just wanted to have a better impact on organizations that I work with. I was what you don't want in an organization. I was a disengaged leader, so I'm sure I cost a company some money.
00:02:23:20 - 00:02:26:20
Sandy
And I don't want that to happen to anybody else.
00:02:26:22 - 00:02:53:02
Jennifer
Well, I appreciate that transparency because, you know, it's been a hot minute and there's been a lot of change in the world since 2020. And there is we are hearing from leaders about burnout and OHS and executives that there there's some challenges with burnout. So thank you for that transparency. And congratulations on the bravery. To to do it.
00:02:53:04 - 00:03:02:08
Jennifer
You know, you have many clients. You're very trusted and respected in the business community. What challenges to your clients have currently?
00:03:02:12 - 00:03:29:07
Sandy
Yes. So right now, clients are really experiencing some of this stagnation with leadership, authenticity and accountability. You know, I think I see I still see a lot of we're going to promote this person because they're good technically, but we never train them to be a good leader, which is very frustrating, not just to me, but also to that person.
00:03:29:07 - 00:04:01:06
Sandy
They're expected to lead people, but no one ever told them how to do that. So I think that the how can they be an authentic leader, and then how can they be accountable and hold their team accountable? Is one another one is just plain old civility in the workplace. We're seeing, you know, Exodus, my team. We're seeing more organizations really not knowing how to hold people accountable around an effective culture.
00:04:01:08 - 00:04:32:23
Sandy
And that's a little bit disconcerting as well, because environmentally, things from the outside are now coming into the workplace. So, folks are emboldened and empowered, feel empowered to say whatever they want to say. They can do whatever they want to do. And we don't address the behavior in order for the effectiveness of the team. So, you know, those are kind of two major things that I'm seeing right now, which really has an impact on cultural transformation.
00:04:33:02 - 00:05:07:24
Jennifer
You know, there's a lot to unpack there. A lot. Right. Let's start with personal bias. You know, I've learned about the concept of personal bias from you, and I'm so happy to be able to share that with others today. I would say most people don't understand the science of personal bias. I know I didn't. Can you please give everyone an overview of our own bias dynamics and how they play into our everyday lives?
00:05:08:01 - 00:05:14:19
Jennifer
And that will start the conversation of unpacking civility. And we'll talk more about that too.
00:05:14:23 - 00:05:36:12
Sandy
Yeah. So, you know, one one approach that I like to consider when we're talking about bias or, bias is not just a character flaw. So we want usually we're like, oh, you're bias this. And we just throw that word out there. It is a human reality. We all have bias based on the many different layers that make up who we are.
00:05:36:12 - 00:06:02:10
Sandy
So, you know, I think about, you know, traditionally your family dynamics is, you know, can give you some bias. Your workplace experience, you know, if you're six months on the job, your experience is going to be very different from somebody who's six years on the job. So when we think about all of these different layers of bias is also there to protect us.
00:06:02:12 - 00:06:31:07
Sandy
And so if we can start, you know, kind of thinking about bias in a way that, yes, you know, it's an opportunity to change. It's a choice that we make to respond differently when something happens. But not try to push it down to say we're not biased because everyone that is breathing has bias. We all do. And so really, there are, you know, I think about what's called a diversity.
00:06:31:07 - 00:06:54:15
Sandy
We are in the many different layers of bias. And you know from the primary most often we're focused on just race and gender and age. Those things that are very visible to us. But then they're also things that are not visible to us and, and really paying attention to, you know, Sandy doesn't like chocolate. So, yeah, I have my own bias.
00:06:54:15 - 00:07:19:06
Sandy
But because everywhere I go, I feel like that's all I see is chocolate. But really, you don't know this about me unless I tell you so. There are a lot of things that are invisible to us, but it makes up the whole human of who I am. So when I'm thinking about bias in the science of bias, there's also this protection.
00:07:19:08 - 00:07:44:05
Sandy
There's this, you know, fundamental protection that I have that I've grown up with, that I've been introduced to by parents and grandparents and where I lived, and all of those different things that really shaped who we are and how we show up in the workplace. And everybody shows up in the workplace in a different way that really their leader or no one else knows about.
00:07:44:07 - 00:08:17:04
Jennifer
And it's subliminal. It takes work to understand what your biases are and and to your point, it's from when you are a child. If those biases come in and how you were communicated to or how you were treated or the experiences you had, they had shapes. The glasses that you wear, right? Yeah. So I do think, you know, if anyone's listening and they want one take away from today, get some bias training for your leadership team and then and then ripple that out to your whole company.
00:08:17:06 - 00:08:47:19
Jennifer
People are so adamant that their bias is truth. And that's some of that's some of the issues that we're having in the world right now. So that's one layer, but let's talk another about culture. There's been some significant conversations lately about how organizations approach a culture with some scaling back traditional Dei initiatives. Others are increasing those initiatives.
00:08:47:21 - 00:08:58:09
Jennifer
So let's start with what patterns are you seeing from from your work in transforming organizational culture with companies?
00:08:58:11 - 00:09:42:22
Sandy
Yes. And unfortunately, you know, the work that I do and the clients that I have, we've partnered in this journey, not just around diversity, but really around inclusion, equity and cultural transformation. So in spite of, you know, looking at this as a compliant or compliance, you know, tools and resources, we're looking at this as a way to encourage better engagement with teams and really focusing on, from a cultural standpoint, making sure that leaders are equipped with the tools to build good teams.
00:09:42:22 - 00:10:07:10
Sandy
But also, you know, building trust is a big part of that. You know, folks want to be trusted. I tell leaders all the time, I'm like, I can promise you, the majority of people go to work and they want to do a good job. If they're not doing a good job, maybe there's something environmental that's happening on the team or in the workplace that's causing them or, you know, even maybe at home.
00:10:07:12 - 00:10:33:16
Sandy
But we have to be good at asking questions and really inquiring around what's happening on my team and be accountable for that. Everybody sees the elephant in the room and they see a leader that's not willing to address that. So that's not been building credibility. It's not building trust. And then, you know, one of the things that I think about is how emotionally intelligent our leaders these days.
00:10:33:16 - 00:10:37:15
Sandy
And gosh, I could like we could top for another hour.
00:10:37:17 - 00:11:03:22
Jennifer
But when I'm pulling that or what you just mentioned here is curiosity. Just be curious if somebody is presenting themselves in a certain way, just sit down and talk to them. Yes. Say I'm you know, you're presenting yourself as uninterested. What's going on? Am I saying something wrong? Is there something going on at home? Am I not presenting it in a way that you can understand it?
00:11:03:24 - 00:11:07:23
Jennifer
You know, have have curiosity as a leader.
00:11:08:00 - 00:11:26:11
Sandy
And I love the fact that you said that. Because if we can become. And I've been intentional about this for the last three years, and I'm still working on it, if we can become curious and be good at asking questions and not making statements and judgments.
00:11:26:13 - 00:12:06:04
Jennifer
If someone friend a very good friend who uses the phrase tell me more very often to want to learn, but one to listen more than speak, so that that's also good advice. In your experience with all these changes in the world of traditional Dei, you know, that's changed and evolved in the last few months. Tell us about your experience, about the financial impact of inclusion and culture and getting it right versus getting it wrong.
00:12:06:06 - 00:12:35:05
Sandy
Yes. You know, right now we are experiencing, you know, talent drain. People are just not working in a traditional way that they did many years ago, which when we think about the financial impact, when there's conflict in the workplace, it costs organizations more to operate. You don't do your work is not as effective. People don't care about the work.
00:12:35:07 - 00:12:57:04
Sandy
And so, you know, those are things that in many cases, you know, executives that I'm talking to, it's like you can't really pinpoint it. But I can tell you if there are 4 or 5 people you have turnover on this team, it is costing you money. There is no financial impact to not having an inclusive and engaged culture.
00:12:57:06 - 00:13:26:12
Sandy
So if we start with, you know, training and even expectations, Jeffrey, I can tell you one question that I love asking CEOs is, you know, how do you hold your leaders accountable? And there's usually a big pause. And like, what do you mean? I'm like, well, how do you hold folks accountable when they're not a great leader? Or, you know, they talk down or they're bully, you know, how do you hold them accountable for maintaining good talent?
00:13:26:12 - 00:13:32:22
Sandy
Because good talent will leave you if they do not feel appreciated. Right. And now costume.
00:13:32:24 - 00:14:10:13
Jennifer
And future leaders will leave you if they're not under the right person. And it's all related to inclusion and compassion and civility and biases. And that's what I think many people, when they hear inclusion, they they think it's something that it's not. So I'm very grateful that you're on the program from a workplace perspective on inclusion and civility and how important it is to financial success and succession planning and inspiring leaders and future leaders.
00:14:10:16 - 00:14:48:05
Jennifer
So we are hearing that we're hearing from, you know, CEOs, presidents, shows that there are some concerns with how people are showing up. And it doesn't matter the level. There's concerns with civility. There's words being said that shouldn't be said. There's combativeness that shouldn't be combative. And I personally think this is my humble opinion and we can debate this, but this platform of social media where you can say anything and get attention, whether it's good attention or bad attention.
00:14:48:05 - 00:15:23:04
Jennifer
And this, you know, the algorithms give you what they think you want to hear. And then there's robots or, or things trying to stir up the pot to create eyeballs and sensationalizing on social media. And everyone has an opinion, everyone has a voice. And the written word is so much harsher than talking to a person. Even digitally talking to a person is nicer than typing in a chat and an emotion in that five second moment that goes away.
00:15:23:04 - 00:15:50:01
Jennifer
But it stays on social media forever, right? But it's in our cultures now, too, and it's in our workplaces. Let's let's unpack this. How are leaders handling the lack of civility or frustrations around what we're talking about here, about people just being rude and mean? What's what's your advice? We have a lot of leaders listening to this right now.
00:15:50:03 - 00:15:51:19
Jennifer
Which advice?
00:15:51:21 - 00:16:24:13
Sandy
Yes, I will go back to the basics in communication, which I know some leaders, you know, struggle with in this day and time. I think it goes back to. The level of respect that others have for you, you know, making sure that I am someone that someone on my team can talk to if someone goes off the rails, the way to respond to it is not going off the rails with them.
00:16:24:15 - 00:16:25:11
Sandy
So, you.
00:16:25:11 - 00:16:26:05
Jennifer
Know, you might see.
00:16:26:08 - 00:16:28:11
Sandy
Right? Yeah. Even if you want to say, oh my.
00:16:28:11 - 00:16:29:10
Jennifer
Gosh, yeah.
00:16:29:12 - 00:17:01:20
Sandy
And they'll go chase then, you know, just don't do that, you know. But really begin to explore what's behind that type of behavior. But I also go back to, you know, from an organizational level, most companies do a good job of having these words around core values. You know, having these colors and all of these things. But we don't it's not a part of the performance evaluation if there is one.
00:17:02:00 - 00:17:29:01
Sandy
We don't hold people accountable for showing up respectfully, for being kind, for working on a team. I mean, what's the expectation that we have the core values and everyone from the CEO on down actually lives out those behaviors, and we, regardless of level within the organization, should be able to talk to one another. And so those things are important.
00:17:29:01 - 00:17:52:09
Sandy
And there's a lot of anger. There's a lot of, you know, breaches in mental health. There's there's just a lot of things that are going on. And I am trying really hard not to judge that because we don't know what's going on in someone's life and, you know, just to make a judgment. But we can't let them know that we're here.
00:17:52:11 - 00:18:16:10
Sandy
We can provide them support. But communication, being willing to ask the right questions and to listen, just to listen is a fundamental skill that leaders have forgotten. We've gotten so fast, moving so fast, but we really have to go back to just asking, talking, listening.
00:18:16:12 - 00:18:46:11
Jennifer
Where's the line in the sand? So if I am an HR leader and I've had one instance of somebody saying something inappropriate, when do you determine that that's a that's a case for firing immediate termination versus coaching, mentoring and helping that person. Because compassion is tricky, right? Yes. Most some of the best leaders are compassionate. They have the best cultures.
00:18:46:11 - 00:19:00:12
Jennifer
They're servant leaders. Where's that line in the sand. Is it a leader's morals and and or do you go back to the companies culture? How do you advise clients on when somebody needs to go?
00:19:00:14 - 00:19:25:04
Sandy
Yeah. And that's a that's a, you know, kind of tricky question in itself because sometimes it just really depends. But from an equity standpoint, what I've seen happen in organizations is that I will get frustrated with this person. And I'm there at but then the leader does the exact same thing, and we're going to keep the leader because we don't want to get rid of the leader.
00:19:25:06 - 00:20:01:13
Sandy
So, you know, from an equity standpoint, I wouldn't have expectations for one person, one group, one staff level and not have it for the other. So I personally, you know, as an HR representative, I believe that HR is the heart of an organization. But also, you know, when there's an expectation of something to be done, if somebody is wreaking havoc in a workplace and you keep them on, you're really saying, I do not care about this organization.
00:20:01:15 - 00:20:25:06
Sandy
I do not care about this culture. And so there's something that you have to do about it. And doing it in the right way. So being respectful, you know, not talking behind somebody's back. There are a lot of things that if you're terminating someone because of their behavior, make sure that is consistent across the organization that we do the same thing for everyone.
00:20:25:08 - 00:20:47:21
Jennifer
And I think that's a very clear message that if somebody said something inappropriate and you do it in, is you described in a consistent way, it's time to go. I don't care what kind of leader you are, if you are hurting people and hurting the culture. Yes, it's there, I feel, and you can to make me on this.
00:20:47:21 - 00:21:01:00
Jennifer
To me, I'm like, they gotta go. Even if it's your best person and they say one time the worst thing they could say, how can anybody respect that person again, even though it was a mistake?
00:21:01:02 - 00:21:20:09
Sandy
Yeah. I mean, you know that that's not that's not happening in an a lot of places. It's like, oh no, I'm going to keep them because we can't replace them. They're irreplaceable. And I'm like, but this is crash in your culture because the leader actually lacks emotional intelligence. Yeah.
00:21:20:11 - 00:21:25:21
Jennifer
And there's in some companies and certain industries are somewhat desperate for talent.
00:21:25:23 - 00:21:26:15
Sandy
Yes.
00:21:26:17 - 00:21:32:09
Jennifer
So they're they're worried about the longevity of the business, which I get I get.
00:21:32:11 - 00:21:42:00
Sandy
It's a cost to it though. It's a it's a financial cost to keeping someone and crashing your culture. Okay.
00:21:42:02 - 00:22:12:24
Jennifer
Okay, let's let's focus. I want to make sure I ask a question about your book. Again. It's the inclusion architecture blueprint, a seven pillar strategy for transforming workplace culture. One key takeaway from the book is that many inclusive programs do not produce real change. We're kind of talking about that just now. They're not structured for long term strategy and consistency in results, effective results.
00:22:12:24 - 00:22:17:22
Jennifer
Right. So tell us more about this and your advice.
00:22:17:24 - 00:22:47:10
Sandy
Yeah. So a lot of I mean a few years ago maybe I would say George Floyd right after we just wanted training like oh just come in and train. But I've taken approach that training is not a strategic solution. Training does not bring accountability if there is no follow up. So when we think about, you know, why some of the Dei programs have failed is because they weren't consistent.
00:22:47:10 - 00:23:16:09
Sandy
You can do annual training and know behavior changes. Nothing ever changes. It's just a check the box. So when we think about at least the approach of this book is how do we look at every area within the organization, every department team function and really look at a way to bring inclusion into this process, to bring equity into the process?
00:23:16:11 - 00:23:47:24
Sandy
Dei for me has never been about giving someone an opportunity or access that they did not earn. We that's not what this is about. That's just not discrimination. That's nothing. There's no quotas. You know, I've never been one to say. Oh, yeah. You know, we need, you know, 20% this and 20% that. That's not effective. You need the right people, but you need to have diversity of thought.
00:23:48:01 - 00:24:01:13
Sandy
People from different backgrounds help bring that in. And those that have diverse leadership teams are more profitable companies. They have the competitive advantage.
00:24:01:15 - 00:24:42:07
Jennifer
Yeah. And those that have been doing traditional Dei correctly, it was never about quotas. It was never about filling a seat with somebody that looks different. It was it was always about compassion, inclusion under standing people from where they come from. And quite frankly, leveraging those talents in different perspective for financial gain. Yes. So, you know, I think it's important to understand what people think it is versus what the really good practices were doing.
00:24:42:09 - 00:25:08:19
Sandy
Yes. And that's, that's that's a conversation because we can think that this is what it is and that that's our own bias. But the reality is, is that this work is not done to push another group or individuals aside. It's not it's not to be divisive at all. It is to make sure, you know, all Dei strategies should align with business strategy.
00:25:08:21 - 00:25:18:02
Sandy
It's not you know, it's not stand alone. It is working in concert to make sure we are strategically meeting goals.
00:25:18:04 - 00:25:42:03
Jennifer
It's great. It's great. You know, we always like to, talk about you as a human. So I do have a couple questions to understand you as a leader and kind of demystifying the seed of leadership. You know, everyone's a human. And sometimes, you know, folks coming into the job, they see the leader, and they're there intimidated by the leader.
00:25:42:03 - 00:25:50:13
Jennifer
But let's let's learn about you as a human for just a minute. What's your personal mantra? Keeps you motivated?
00:25:50:15 - 00:26:28:03
Sandy
Well, for me, this one keeps me grounded, and I. My mantra is perfection is the enemy of progress. And I am one that struggles with trying to make everything perfect and wanting to do that. I think as long as I'm human, that's probably not possible. But I had a leader many years ago that said, Sandy, your 80% is better than most others, 100% exact because I would hold it and I'm like, oh, let me just read through it one more time.
00:26:28:05 - 00:26:47:20
Sandy
And I realized as a leader it made me seem or appear unprepared. But the reality is I just wanted to get it right. And so I'm very mindful of that, especially as a business owner, is that I'm I'm doing a good job because you want it. It just keeps your mind from thinking that what you're doing is good enough.
00:26:47:22 - 00:26:55:03
Sandy
Yeah. So so that's the that's me. And what keeps me grounded is perfection is the enemy of.
00:26:55:05 - 00:27:14:08
Jennifer
Yeah. I like to say, and I've heard this too. Your b work is everyone else's work. I have a couple perfectionists in my in my life. And I said I want to see books and D's. For me, it just reward it, you know, just to reward the behavior. But like, what daily rituals do you do? I know you work out.
00:27:14:10 - 00:27:17:17
Jennifer
Yeah. What other daily ritual? Studio.
00:27:17:19 - 00:27:49:00
Sandy
Yeah. So I don't work out every day, but I work out regularly throughout the week. The devotion. My faith is really important. So I center myself in the morning either reading the Bible or reading some devotion or, you know, just journaling something. I have the opportunity. And as a business owner, I get myself a time out, you know, say, hey, just stop, breathe and take and be present.
00:27:49:02 - 00:28:00:10
Sandy
And I think for me, that's something especially after, you know, going through two and a half years of cancer, I am showing up in places and I want to be very present.
00:28:00:12 - 00:28:23:03
Jennifer
You know, there's a lot of executives out there that have had medical issues and you would never know it, you would never know it. And they fight the fight. And then if you think about it, there's a lot of people that have an illness. It doesn't necessarily have to be cancer. What what inspiration or advice do you have for them?
00:28:23:03 - 00:28:23:20
Jennifer
I know.
00:28:23:22 - 00:28:24:09
Sandy
You're.
00:28:24:10 - 00:28:28:17
Jennifer
You're doing quite well now, but it was a battle.
00:28:28:19 - 00:28:54:15
Sandy
Yes. So for me, it was very important to keep myself surrounded with awesome people. Like I would hear. I get a check in from you. So just like how you're doing. People that know you can fight, but also are helping you fight just by the little things that they're doing. And even that was a message from my doctor.
00:28:54:15 - 00:29:18:03
Sandy
She said, Sandy, you're you're blazing through this, but it's also your attitude. And I, I try to keep my attitude in check. That doesn't mean that I don't fake it. I, you know, I don't have great days every day, but I am grateful every day. And, you know, if those that are experiencing illness, I personally had to tell others.
00:29:18:03 - 00:29:40:10
Sandy
I shared it on social media, but I know other leaders and executives that are going through challenges that don't feel the trusted support of their culture and their peers to let anybody know, which I feel is unfortunate because it it doesn't help your illness.
00:29:40:12 - 00:30:05:23
Jennifer
Yeah, there is a mind body connection there. And and I do know several leaders that I have had serious health conditions and they didn't tell anybody. Imagine carrying that weight without your support structure and trusting your team to have your back. You've had their back. You know, trusting your team to have your back. It's okay to show a little bit of weakness and that there you go.
00:30:05:23 - 00:30:30:24
Jennifer
With the unconscious bias, right? Yes. And that I think I think we should end on this. You know, the one takeaway for me to start this whole process and to do it right for those listening. And again, I'm going to circle back to it, get at least the unconscious bias training for your leadership teams. What else would you add to that CNB.
00:30:31:01 - 00:31:00:00
Sandy
Yeah. So I think a conscious bias, these are ones that I usually recommend is unconscious bias, emotional intelligence and psychological safety. To know especially in this hybrid workspace. I know a couple of executives that say I don't trust people that work at home, like, wow, okay, I get it. But this is where we are now. So how can we balance this out?
00:31:00:00 - 00:31:18:22
Sandy
So really, those unconscious bias, psychological safety and emotional intelligence I need to be self-aware as a leader, and I need to be responsible for my actions. And Jennifer should not have to make the line up because you can't do that. We can't change people right?
00:31:18:24 - 00:31:30:04
Jennifer
Well, thank you so much for being on the program today. I know I always learn from you, but keep shining bright. My friends and keep keep doing what you're doing.
00:31:30:06 - 00:31:32:23
Sandy
I appreciate you so much. And thank you.
00:31:33:00 - 00:31:41:13
Jennifer
All right, everyone, that wraps up today's program. We'll talk to you later and have a wonderful day. Keep shining bright.