Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works

In this episode, a friend of the podcast Bart Hoffman, interviews Frank Rodriguez and Gene Tavernetti about their new book and the importance of being more intentional about how technology is used in schools. They discuss the challenges educators face in balancing digital tools with meaningful human interaction in learning environments.

Digital Captives: Helping Schools Strike a Balance Between Humans and Hardware, written by Frank Rodriguez, Donna Smith, and Gene Tavernetti, explores how schools can thoughtfully integrate technology while keeping teaching, learning, and relationships at the center.

See bios for the authors at the Schools Next website.

www.schoolsnext.org

This podcast sponsored by:

The Bell Ringer, a weekly newsletter providing news, tools, and resources on the science of learning, written by education reporter Holly Korbey. Subscribe here.

Murmuration Author Services by Mark Combes. Looking to write your first book? Murmuration Author Services is your friend and coach for this journey. Learn more here.

What is Better Teaching: Only Stuff That Works?

Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.

Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom.

This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education.

Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com.

I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast.

And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching.

A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords.

Only stuff that

works.

A little more than two years ago, Dr. Frank Rodriguez brought together a group of colleagues from across the country to discuss an issue he had been encountering in his afterschool programs.

The impact of screens on children and the behaviors that seem to emerge as a result of excessive screen time.

After meeting virtually for several months, the group began gathering in person to more deeply examine the issue, identifying specific challenges schools were facing, and exploring what might be done to mitigate some of those behaviors.

Over time, the work evolved into developing a systematic approach that schools could use to address what we began to see as runaway technology, where technology was driving the conversation rather than serving as a tool to support learning.

Not long after the idea emerged that a book should be written, one that would do more than simply point out the problem.

We wanted to identify the issues clearly and more importantly, outline practical systems schools could implement to address them instead of just saying, isn't this terrible?

We wanted to offer solutions that we knew could work.

That effort led to the book Digital Captives, Helping Schools strike a balance between humans and hardware.

Written by Frank Rodriguez, Donna Smith, and myself, gene Taber.

Today we're gonna talk about that book and we're joined by a friend of the podcast and a respective voice in education, Bart Hoffman, who will guide the conversation
as we explore what schools can actually do to address this growing challenge and the benefits educators may gain from reading and applying the ideas in this book.

I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation.

So very excited to have, uh, an old friend Bart Hoffman here today to talk to us about our new book, digital Captives.

So Bart, uh, so happy and and thankful that you're here to conduct this interview with us.

Bart: Thank You

You argue that schools have shifted from producing digital natives to becoming digital captives.

What does that shift really mean?

Frank: we started this work thinking about how students were changing over the course of, you know, the years following the pandemic.

Gina and I are talking and thinking about.

The start, our start of the start of our work together, back in the early part of the century, in 2004, I think 2005, um, how we, the optimism at that point was about how the technology
was gonna really transform education and make, and the students were gonna grow up in it in a very healthy way, um, and be, and be digital natives in the way that we were digital immigrants

too.

what happened

in actuality from our perspective is that everything shifted so

fast.

Everything from, social media to, to now ai, but also just the internet and, and quick cut videos.

that really shifted how students think and, and how we do as well, and how we interact with each other.

And at some point it tipped the scales to where they went from being natives to really being.

Captives to the screens, whether the screens be at home, in the phone, in the form of phones and tablets and TV or the, or at school in the form of tablets and Chromebooks.

Gene Tavernetti: in addition to, in addition to that, the, the work that Frank does in his rise after school programs, he was able to see, these differences manifest.

I mean, they were very clear differences, kids not being able to, uh, to pay attention as well.

Executive function were not where, uh, typical five year olds, 10 year olds were.

And so it was, uh, it wasn't just something that we had read in a book.

I mean, Frank was experiencing it every day with his folks.

Frank: Yeah.

And

if I can piggyback on that, actually I'm gonna say that even more than myself, my staff was experiencing it and we were experiencing it from like four year olds through 22 year olds.

Because, you know, we, we employ a lot of 18, 19, 20, 22

year

olds,

uh, in our afterschool programs, tutoring programs, summer programs, et cetera.

And we were seeing that, that they were acting differently in terms of like communication, how they, how they wrote, but also even things
like eye contact or how we conducted interviews, you know, shifting to zoom how many would show up in their pajamas on the interviews.

So there was definitely a shift there, but we also noticed it in the programs with like four and five year olds.

Like Gene was saying, that we're having a difficult time.

Assimilating to what the school structures were like, partly 'cause they missed preschool, but also partly because they were coming in, it seemed to us at the time, wired a little bit differently.

So we were having those issues with four, four, and five and six year olds who were like running outta

classrooms

in ways we hadn't seen before.

But also we had like seven and 80 year olds cutting themselves, doing self-harm threats.

Uh, kids that, you know, seventh and eighth grade talk about depression in ways that they hadn't.

we know that

something

shifted at, initially, we attributed it to the pandemic.

This is 2022 we're talking about.

As we

got further from that and we got more into post pandemic life, we saw that those things weren't subsiding and that there were some other things tied to it as well that were going on.

Not just academically, but also communication wise and social emotionally.

So I think that, um.

That we saw that something had tipped in the kids and the pandemic was a huge tipping point.

As we got further into the research, we found that really it started prior to

that.

Bart: Could you talk a little bit more about when you realized that technology was moving from augmenting instruction to replacing it?

Frank: I mean, we've been working in schools for together for 20, going on 22

years.

when,

when schools first started bringing technology, I mean, I was a teacher in the 1990s and she was a

teacher in

the 1980s

and we had, you know, like one laptop or one, one, uh, one

desktop

and you played

Oregon Trail

on it or whatever.

Uh, you use it for word processing.

the early two thousands, we started seeing, you know, three or four or five

imax

uh, and we talk about this in the book, the evolution of that, how those then got replaced by

laptop.

And then the Chromebook card came in

as broadband expanded, at some point in about

2014. I think that's a

hinge point for us in our book and other books about this as well.

In the work by Jonathan Hyde and Johann Hari, about 2014, there was some sort of tipping point where like all of a sudden all the hardware was in place and what happened right at that point?

If you think back to it historically, and we talk about this I think in chapter one, that No Child Left Behind went away at the end of 2015.

Um,

and what came in to replace it, um, essa, every Student Succeeds Act was a lot more, you know, like personally tailored instruction, less accountability on, on assessments.

Not

that.

You know,

drug

coding accountability is great either.

But once that

shift

happened,

through the

E-Rate, um, funding happened where funding exploded to where every district could have broadband and be able to have 30 Chromebooks on at the same time in every

classroom.

Once those things happened, there was like just this surge of programs that came into classrooms.

And so I think the tipping point was probably 20 16, 20 17.

We didn't realize that at the

time, I think

we realized that after the fact that wait a minute, what's happening here?

And so we shifted in our own programs.

We've shifted away from that into like more just interacting with each other type of work because we've seen the shift happen in the school day, in the afterschool programs and as a result of COVID.

So I think all of those things together really kind of brought it

together.

Gene Tavernetti: And then I think for me, as I was working with, with schools, during COVID, I mean basically I thought I was retired on, you know, March 13th, 2000, and when,

uh.

The interest from the districts were, okay, can you coach us in how to do this distance

learning how, how to do, how to do this, this virtual learning.

And so, the schools got so wrapped up in that, how do we, how do we continue to provide services

to kids,

even though they knew they weren't doing a good job, but

because

of the things that, Frank had talked about.

I mean, there were some schools that would just check out the Chromebooks.

So the kids had, uh, they were available for lessons, and they did the best they could during that process.

But when they came back, the teachers didn't give

up.

The

teachers, it was almost like they were doing the same type of virtual lessons, but in person with

the kids.

And so they are the ones that weren't giving up The laptops and the Chromebooks when we, when we came back.

so even though stuff was happening before the pandemic, that distance learning, that

whole,

way to look at, that distance learning really made an impact on, on moving forward.

that

really.

that really

showed me the captivity part.

They were, they were captive at that point.

Bart: So in a sense, the pandemic didn't create the problem, it accelerated it.

What became normalized that should have remained temporary?

Frank: I mean,

I think

education being transactional.

We talk about this as well

in the book,

how, to me,

uh, to bar to, to jean, to you, um, who are lifelong educators.

education is

transformational.

And at that point

out of necessity, I mean, we understand we were working in schools.

We were all working in schools at the time on March 13th,

like,

like Jean mentioned, um, it became transactional.

We had to have some sense of normalcy for

the kiddos.

And so

we transitioned into,

um, into the Zoom learning and to, you know, Google meets learning.

Some of that never went away.

We, um, walk into classrooms now.

I think what differentiates our book, uh, from others that are really, that are really well written, but what differentiates us is that we're actually in classrooms.

We were in classrooms together yesterday.

Um, we were in 22 classrooms yesterday.

I sat and planned lessons with teachers on Monday.

Gene tomorrow is gonna go back and observe classrooms, uh, at a high school.

And what we notice is there is such a plethora of material.

There

are so many companies that are vying for that digital dollar.

You know, that it overwhelms teachers' decision making.

And I

think what's happened is that it's become like almost, too much riches.

And I think that's what instead of, instead of like really thinking about what am I trying to achieve with this lesson,

um, it's

become more like, what of all these offerings that I can have digitally can the kids partake in?

And I think that is what should have gone away that didn't go

away.

Bart: So based on all your observations, what most concerns you post pandemic?

Gene Tavernetti: I think it goes back to things that we were doing 20 years ago.

Just, you know, how do we present lessons?

Well, and the way we always talked about, uh, instruction is in

a well-designed, a well-designed lesson, which includes those transformational

elements that, that

Frank was talking about.

So there is the teacher is leading.

Students in conversation, in structured conversation, in lots of checking for understanding, in lots of, uh, making sure that the, the kids are paying
attention, which, which wasn't happening again, uh, during, during the pandemic, and which just was just assumed when you had the Chromebook out.

you know, going back to some foundational things that, that, the research that we're, that we're looking at, I mean, it started in the fifties, sixties, that nothing's been disputed,

but,

uh, in this ageist society, there's just no, there is no, uh, institutional memory

for stuff,

you know, every, every 15 years.

It seems like we're starting brand new,

brand

new.

The things that we started out doing when we were working together, talking about, uh,

using, uh, mini whiteboards, you know, to check for understanding.

It's like we go back again.

And never heard of it.

Oh.

Oh, really?

Where did these come

from?

And so, uh, I, I, I think, you know, a lot of what we talk about in the book is, is, has been foundational since the eighties.

Frank: I think, if I can piggyback on that, I think obviously those are all like classroom based concerns and a hundred percent I agree with 'em.

I was telling, uh, Jean yesterday about a post that I came across, um, recently, and it said, it was a post-it

that I wrote in 2015

and I found it in a closet

somewhere.

And

it said in 2000, and I wrote this in 2015, in 2005, we were working

with teachers on using whiteboards

to check for

understanding.

In 2015,

we're working with

teachers on using whiteboards to check

for understanding.

And the question is, in 2025, we'll be using whiteboards.

And the answer was, yeah, that's what we were working on last

year.

You know,

uh, so it's, it's like gene's talking about, it's like the stuff just goes away.

In the book, we talk about, um, two really well-known metaphors in education.

One is a Rip Van

Winkle, you

know, going to sleep and waking up a hundred years later.

And he wakes up and he recognizes nothing.

He looks around, he sees airports and he sees, you know, cars and everything.

He's got no idea what anything is until he walks into a

school and then

he feels like, oh, I recognize this, this is a school.

Right?

So that's one we talk about, but we also talk about the pendulum.

And the pendulum is actually even more well known in these, just these dramatic swings in practice.

now we're seeing some backlash, I think.

And just in the last three days there's been a, an article in the New York Times, About, um, you know, iPads in kindergarten and parents starting to rebel against that.

That was yesterday,

the, the 10th.

Uh, on Friday.

On Monday there was an article in education, uh, next, and it talked about, um, it, it was, uh, called logged in, tuned Out regarding middle school and high school students.

They're on their Chromebooks.

They tune out and we see that in practice when we're in the classrooms like we were yesterday.

And there was another article by the, the gentleman who wrote a Digital Delusion, which is kind of a

companion,

not a companion, but a complimentary book to ours.

And he pat some data about how as schools locked in to more and more digital, the nap scores kind of just hit a plateau and then have, have,

uh, fallen over the last, over the last 10 years.

So that's all instructionally.

And

so what we're seeing now is this pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards, uh.

Yeah,

like do away with

the screens.

Well, you can't do that.

You know, kids need to be able to interact with technology in a healthy way and which is what we talked about, just having balance.

but I wanna go back to what Jim was talking about in your

question about what most scares you.

And I'll

tell you what most scares me is, is broader, actually the

schools,

um, Johann Hari and still focus talks about this.

Jonathan Hyde talks about an actions generation, but I think to me, the ones that even hit it more on the head are Nicholas Carr,

in Super Bloom and, um, Timothy Wu and, in, uh, attention Merchants, and even going back to Neil Postman, uh, in the 1980s,

um,

about how if adult attention spans and ability to

focus and communicate well.

And have multiple perspectives.

If those are going

downhill, then what happens to the next

generation?

You know?

And we talk about that in the book, like a second grader or a third grader who's being acclimated to more and more intensification as far as what will get their attention more and more gamification.

What

will they need in the fourth grade when the fourth, they need more because a dopamine rush just won't be the same, right?

So you keep on accelerating and augmenting that.

What happens when those kids become, you know, voting age?

And what we're getting is very disposable.

Attention

spans, I think

is how I would refer to it.

And I think that's what scares me the most is how do we tackle the huge issues we have, not just in the country, but in the world when we have.

A citizenry in 20 years

who have attention spans of 1920 seconds, which

is what the research shows.

Most recently, they can, you know, college students in a,

I think

it was a 2023 study, they have attention spans of about 20 seconds.

People our age are about two and a half

minutes, but we grew up analog, Right?

What happens when today's second grader

is in college?

What will the attention span be then?

And

when they're running the

country?

I think that's what scares me even more globally than

what's going on in the classrooms.

Gene Tavernetti: And And I think something that also

is scary is talking about the, um, the different timeframes.

10 years, 15

years,

you know?

So now we have, uh, teachers, teachers and administrators who since this is so normal, they don't see any dangers.

You know, they have to be, they have to be pointed out.

But once they're pointed out, it's very, it's very clear, you know, that you walk into a classroom and all the laptops are up.

You know, we know the teacher can't see, you know, they're, oh sure there's a monitoring program, but it's just not, it's just not the same.

And so, so much has been normalized and, and it's very difficult, you know, we'll do a staff development, we'll do a training for administrators, and we have to tell 'em, shut your laptops, you know, get off your phone.

And that's

what, that's the,

what we're talking about is, is that issue with kids.

So, so it is, uh, bigger than schools, like you say, it's, it's, adults really have to really have to follow that lead and first of all, acknowledge that they're there as well.

Yeah.

And that it's not okay.

We want things to be okay.

It's not okay.

Uh, but, but we're also competing with, technology companies that are, you know, funded by billionaires and,

and it's just the promises that

they,

that

they make,

uh,

they're

too seductive.

Frank: Tim w talks about this in attention merchants, how things that have become

normalized,

that

were not

having

phone at the dinner table that just was not

the

norm

before.

Right.

Or, you

know, back in the,

maybe early

2010s, if the phone rang at

church,

you know, the priest might make a joke about it.

Oh, God's calling.

You know, now it's like something

you expect

the

phones

ring in

church and it's,

and

there shouldn't be,

but it's become like,

just

normalized, like, like Chino was

talking

about.

So I

think

in,

uh, in chapter four

talk

about,

um, creating a

a filter in classrooms for

friction

just

slow down and to be

more thoughtful

about

what

bring

into classrooms.

When

you're

thinking

about

a textbook adoption,

it takes about a year and a half, right?

To, to adopt a textbook.

You have to put it out to all the different stakeholders.

You have public

viewings of it, you know, do a seance

over it.

And to finally

adopt

curriculum.

I can just go online and download an app and have it in front of kids, you know, in a heartbeat.

And, and there's ways

to work

around

district,

you know,

district, uh,

filters and such.

we talk about that,

in chapter four

of the book.

We also talk about

how

this happened

in classrooms, in schools within

broader digital

immersion.

didn't happen in

isolation.

I think

part

of what happened is because

we were all

learning

how to to shop

and be entertained

and book our travel and use Google

Maps

and such,

we didn't notice the

same thing

was

going on

in schools.

And that's partly

why

it snuck up

on us, I

think.

And

it wasn't,

uh, I think

maybe it was Johann Hari

who

talks

about it, um, in stolen focus.

That,

what

COVID did.

It's

almost like that frog

that's

boiling in the,

you

know, in

the water.

And it's turning up

really slowly

and it

doesn't

realize What's happening

to it.

What

COVID

did was it turned

the

heat

up really

fast so that all of a sudden those of us that were able

to step out of it afterwards realized,

Hey, something's happened

here.

That

isn't good.

and

I think

that's

what's,

you know, what's led us on this path.

We started talking about

this

three years ago.

Uh, and I'm

glad to,

see

that there's

more, I think voices

out

there now saying the same thing.

Bart: I also hear from teachers who report declines in working memory, sustained attention and task persistence.

What does the research say about what's happening cognitively?

Gene Tavernetti: Well,

in digital delusions, uh,

uh, there's a lot of data that that just shows

declining.

Declining cognitively.

I mean, he's pretty, he's pretty bold in how he, how he says that he doesn't talk about a, a learning

loss, but

he just, you know, he's got data that, that

show

where the, you know, this is the first generation that, that is not doing as well as the prior generation, or

least

well.

there's evidence, there's evidence out there, and it's, it's

pretty

indisputable.

Frank: Uh, and I

think, I

think

he,

um, he talked about that

this generation is

the

first one that is

like the,

the

is actually lower than the parents' generation by about six points in the

last 120 years.

More recently, just

on, on Monday.

I think he came out with that article that showed where

the

NA scores have

dropped

over time.

But I think, so

that's

cognitively, but I think what we're seeing is even

the precognitive

level, even

things like, like holding

information and working

memory.

And being able to carry it from that center to that center that has dropped off, you know, or

things like, uh, being able to

lock in to what's on the board and then bringing that information down and copying

and

writing down

here

and

then looking back up again.

That has dropped handwriting, you know, because of,

we run

school programs,

have,

you know,

students do

things

and

so we have

instant reports

that kiddos write And

we actually have really

good data.

Going

back and comparing

handwriting

from 2014

with handwriting

from

2024 is dramatically different.

Handwriting of a second

grader

is about

equivalent with

handwriting

from

fourth

grader now.

So there, that's fine.

Motor skills that are being lost as well.

So it is,

there's those things you

can see that you can

measure.

and

then there's

things that

unless

you're

looking

for them,

you know, you don't necessarily see it.

And so we talk about

a little bit of this

chapter six.

We talk

about how.

It's

not

enough

to just

focus on

schools.

You know,

kiddos

are in

schools

about

12%

of the calendar

year,

The calendar year is

8,700

hours and the kids spend about

1200 of it in

what

happens to

the

other

6,000

hours

or 7,000 hours?

part of

that is,

is working

the superintendent and principal

level,

at school leader level, board level, working with everything from

prenatal

education

providers

to,

you know, colleges

and, and really taking a community effort.

Because

what's happening

in schools is

only 12% of the year.

It's

what's happening

outside of it.

Right.

our afterschool programs and our summer programs, we've actually really done away, unless the kids

are

doing

Lego

robotics, because we

do want them

engineering and thinking in that way, unless they're doing that or they have homework on their Chromebooks,

they're

basically

not on screens at all.

They're interacting

with each other and.

We put

place

a couple of

things that we talk about in the book.

One's called pencil practice, where they're actually learning how to transfer information,

how

shift

and lock their focus.

We put

in place like learning centers for them

have

to memorize

the

directions

over

there are

such, and then I'm gonna do that for

five minutes and

then

go over

there

and

have

a different set

of directions.

'cause they're not getting

a chance to

practice that when they're just going from one app

the

on their

screens.

And

there's a

cognitive decline,

you know, measured

by test scores

and such.

But then below that,

below that,

there's

a precognitive

skills that we're really worried

about.

and We can

think about

ourselves.

you know,

memorizing phone

numbers.

We used to know thirty, forty, fifty phone numbers.

Now

know like

maybe

three, and, and Nicholas Carr talked about

this

the

shallows.

Very early

book

2010,

talked

about William James

an American

psychologist

who

compared learning, um, to, you

know,

water

cutting

through

the sand

and how water

cuts through a sand

and

creates

a channel.

So the next

time

water

comes the same

way, it'll probably find that channel, right?

Same thing's going on with neural pathways.

It's making those channels deeper and deeper

and deeper.

And so once you practice certain things, like

not

memorizing

phone numbers guess

what

your brain's gonna

do?

Not memorize that phone number, especially if it knows

it doesn't

need

to.

And that's

not,

not as necessary,

but things

having,

awareness about the environment.

Like one of the things that

noticed

very early

with

our

staff applicants, you know, again, our 20, 21,

22 year olds, is we

would

ask

them,

um, where do you

live?

the address,

the cross streets.

And

the

reason we needed to know that is so we

knew like

what schools

to place in that, because we had like 35 schools

they didn't

know the cross streets.

live

over by

the Circle K.

what do you mean the circle

by the Circle

behind the nail salon.

Like we have a lot of nail salons, you know, like you need

to know

how

do you find yourself in

three

dimensional

space

if you don't

have that sense of space of geography?

I think

what we're

losing

goes

well

beyond

cognitive into like some sociocognitive things that

make

be able

to,

to, function.

Gene Tavernetti: And I think without an awareness of what,

what Frank's

talking about, we look for technology

to help us

get out of that.

So, so, and I think again, that's where these, these vendors are so good.

Oh, you have a problem.

Your kids aren't performing well in this.

We got an app.

got

a platform.

And so again, the

the irony is, really

shows the captivity.

Like, like, we've got a

problem

caused by this, but the same people are gonna help pull us out, which doesn't happen.

Bart: Could you explain screen inferiority in reading comprehension?

Frank: Yeah.

So Johann Hari

talks about

that in

stolen focus.

Um,

and it's, there's

quite

few studies

now

that

have shown it that,

because

when

we read,

are

tracking

left

right,

right?

And

we're

reading

a book, things don't pop

out at you.

You're not expecting

things

pop out

at you.

Um, there's

a tactile connection.

There's, There's, a connection to the

brain

that

is different

than when we

read on

screens.

When

read on

screens,

we're reading, uh, we're skimming and scanning

more.

We're expecting

more things to,

to be

going on with

the, with the,

the

text around

it.

And

what his.

Book

shows

that

by the time the

kids

are in

third grade,

um, there's about,

about a two thirds of

year loss if they're

reading

primarily

on screens

versus reading

primarily,

on text.

and

then that,

that carries, you know, that carries, and we

see that

there's actually

article in,

um, I'm sorry, not an article, a quote in the book

from

teacher,

who,

you know, she

taught

for

37 years college, a

reading

specialist

and a

college professor.

And,

uh,

she, in a

college class,

she would

give

the, the students

first

day

of class,

fourth

to sixth

grade text

just

to see where they were.

And she

said that

over the

course

the last 10

years,

there's been a

steady decline.

And their

ability

to read college students' ability to read

fourth

to sixth grade text because

they're

very good

at skimming

and scanning.

They're

not as

good as

that linear

reading

and that

internalizing of

it, I mean,

so it's, it's numbers, it's numerical, you know,

Johann Hari

talks about that,

but we

see it every day

and

we see

it with,

you know, like, like

Kathy

did in the

Gene Tavernetti: you

know.

And

I think also some of the, some

the interventions for students, older students who aren't,

uh,

reading

well are based on, you know,

having this

book

in front

of them.

Be learning how to annotate, learning how to ask questions, learning how to, uh, uh, read for prosody.

I mean,

you know, all of

these

things.

Can't

it with

a screen.

You just,

you

just can't.

Uh, big, a big push now

is to get

novels back into, into, secondary

classroom or in all

classrooms.

And again, that

has

to be, you gotta be holding,

you gotta be holding

that paper and that paper book

be able to do it.

I, I think there are just some

things that screens

you

can't

we just have to

fess up to that.

Frank: There's a

um, uh,

Barbara King

Solver's book, the Bean Trees,

came

out like in 88 or so, 89, and it's like, it's been passed on in my family.

Every, everybody's

read

it 'cause I have to read it

school

' cause she's from Tucson.

And I went to U of

and then my son had to read it.

My daughter, I had

read it.

Now my

youngest

is reading it and I came,

came

into

room

last week

and she was

listening to

something

being read.

And then I

looked at her

and she's got the book

her

hand.

It's the

bean Trees.

Um, and

I said,

what, what are

you

doing

there?

And she said, I'm

I'm reading a

book.

And

I said,

no, you're not

reading.

YouTube

is reading.

And she

said,

well,

I'm

following along.

And she's

like,

but look,

I've annotated

it.

So she

understood

that really

she

had to have some sort

tactile

connection

to it.

But I told her, you know, you need to actually

be doing the

effort.

having

your brain make

those,

make

that

decoding,

and then,

and

then turn that into

comprehension.

because otherwise

it's not

the

same

level,

not the same level of comprehension.

So,

even

kids

who are like,

you know, pretty bright

and

doing

the work,

even

the

tactile

work of

will

fall, fall

into

those traps

what's

the

easiest way

to do like Gene

was saying,

the,

the

digital

companies

will say, here,

we'll help

you

it.

in our programs

after

school,

we've told

them,

don't

want

you reading

on, you

know, on

the screen

anymore.

Take the

kids

outside,

sit under a

tree and read

a book

for

the same

reason.

They

need

hear the

modeling and

they need to, they need to make that connection

in a way

that we

walk

into

kindergarten

classroom sometimes

and

kids

dunno how to

turn a page

' cause

they're

so used to just swiping,

you know, On the iPad.

So there's

something being lost there for sure.

Bart: Why are lower achieving students seeing the steepest declines?

Gene Tavernetti: It

gets back

to,

um,

uh, instruction.

I mean,

it,

it's hard

not to

leave instruction as, as the most

important variable,

which, which I think research, again,

for the past

50, 60 years.

That's one of the, that's one of the, the primary, variables.

And,

and

to be honest,

it's

how to teach

not

taught

programs

and teacher prep

programs.

In fact, again,

during

CO. You

know, we don't want to blame

COVID for everything,

but they can be blamed for a few things.

mean, there were

teachers who

got their credential never

having

set foot in

a classroom.

And so, um, the, the programs, they don't train

teachers.

but

they educate

teachers

about things.

And so they don't, they don't learn how

to teach a lesson,

but

they read

about

different

ways to

teach lessons.

And so I think there's just a,

dearth

of,

uh,

education

for,

pre-service.

Frank: I think

also the, I mean

to your question

about

why the

kids who were struggling the

most are struggling more.

dedicate

the book to kids who

need to be taught.

You

know,

there are some children who,

who

can

go to the

library on

their

own

and they're fine.

And

see

it now

when we

walk

into

the classrooms.

like yesterday

I was

telling

the administrators

I was with,

like,

you

can

tell that the

screens have

made, have

made

the

self-directed kids

continue

active

learners and

those

who

wanna opt out cannot opt

out.

It's much harder

that

when

there's

that interaction

with the

teacher,

teachers

modeling, doing

guided practice,

and

making

the kids accountable

moment to moment.

I think

that's

fallen off.

You know,

And I

think

because

that

accountability

has fallen off,

that relationship

has fallen off

between

the teacher

and the, and

the students.

I think that

that's been a

big piece

of it.

But going back,

even

Gino was talking about

the

1970s and eighties,

Ruby Payne,

uh,

framework, for Understanding Poverty,

you remember that

book, uh,

from, I think it was

the late eighties,

talked about

how

the single most

important

thing

we do as

far

as instruction

is the modeling

Because

the modeling is where you

demystify the learner.

mean,

I'm sorry, the

learning.

It, it

makes it,

it makes

quit

being magic and

becomes, oh, I can

do that too.

And that

with the

modeling

falling

off,

that

demystification

has fallen off.

And I

think

you

see

a lot

of more kids

having

this

learned helplessness

because

they're

not getting that anymore.

think

that's

why we're seeing the steep declines.

And

again,

the numbers

show

it.

Uh,

talk about

this in, in

chapter

one, the Rip

Van Winkle piece,

that instead

coming from

the past,

he had

come from

the future.

He had come from 2034

and

told

educators

in 2014,

Hey

guys, I've been to

the future

and

you spent about

$40

billion

a year,

um,

get

and

more digital

into classrooms.

And

what you're

gonna

see

that the high

achieving kids,

they'll do about

the same,

but your

low

achieving

kids,

they're gonna tank.

Like, who would

buy that?

Nobody

would buy

that if

we knew it

14,

15.

We're

realizing it

now

in 20

25,

20 26.

But

I think

that, um, it's

gonna continue.

Earlier

when

you asked

the question about

what

scares you the

most,

I think it's this bifurcation that's

There was

an article

New York Times

regarding reading

habits.

People who

are reading

still

are reading more.

But the

number of people who

didn't read

a single

book

the

US in

20, in,

20, 24, I think it

was,

was over

50%.

You

know,

those of

us that read,

read

more.

' cause

there's more

read.

Those of

that don't

read

have chosen not to,

there's this big bifurcation happening

that's

gonna

open

that inequality

gap even

more.

Bart: So thinking about the future then, if this trend continues, what are long-term implications?

Frank: There's

good quote

from

superintendent.

in,

at the end

of chapter one,

where we

talk

about

there's alternative

paths to this path

that we're on.

And

this particular

superintendent,

really

well regarded,

she, um,

was

the, she got the Technology

Administrator

award

of the

year

in California

a few years back.

she's

very

pro tech,

but

she

said,

this

trend

continues,

we're gonna go

obsolete.

And we're

really worried

about when

first started

having

these conversations

two and

a half

years

ago.

was

really regarding

the place of

the

mainstream

school

and

mainstream public school

and where that's

going.

And

think,

you

know,

coming out

of COVID in

particular,

we're looking at

virtual

schools, you know, homeschooling,

alpha

schools.

There's

all

these schools

that

are

becoming

alternatives to schools, right?

feel

there's

a really important

place in, in America

for the mainstream neighborhood,

public And

that's

what

see

as being

a big concern,

that the

more we

hollow that out,

the

more that

it becomes like,

well, if

we're

gonna go

to school

and

watch

a screen,

kid can

do that

home.

Why

send

him to school?

You know,

continue hollowing

that out

till

some

point

we hit a tipping

point

that we

can't

get back from.

'cause, you

know,

every year

at, if attendance drops, if enrollment

drops, your funding drops,

gets harder

to fund.

Therefore it gets,

it's

you're

running

up a

hill

backwards.

And

I think

that

that's what

is a really

big cause for

concern

down this path

that we're

Anjanette McNeely: on.

Gene Tavernetti: And it's interesting

how schools.

are

in competition.

The, you know, our, mainstream

public schools

are in competition

with

charters.

And so they are running,

you

know, how

can

provide

what

the

charter's providing

and

what's a

charter,

usually providing

more tech.

And

they get

onto this

this treadmill

and they

don't know

how

get

off.

And

an administrator

it's hard to,

back away and say,

well,

wait a second,

maybe we're

not doing the

right

thing.

Maybe

all

these things that I was

cheerleading for,

uh,

weren't quite

the best

thing to do for kids.

So,

everybody has

some,

uh,

readjustment

administrators,

parents thinking as

Frank talked

about,

thinking about what happens at home,

how we,

how

we interact

with

our children.

think we just have to, you

know,

eat

a big piece

of humble pie

and

say,

made a mistake.

Bart: Yes.

You share that learning is fundamentally social.

So how has device heavy instruction changed the social experience of school?

Gene Tavernetti: it's just taking it away.

I mean, you walk into a, you walk into a classroom and everybody's

got

headphones on and looking at a screen,

where's

the interaction?

And

so then,

uh, I'm

gonna

go off on

a tangent here.

We could go off, you

know,

to where

now we get

interaction with

ai.

can be

our friends,

which has been

very

scary

for folks.

So we

lose skills.

don't know

how

make friends.

We don't know how to, to interact

appropriately.

all

those

things

contribute

to the

answer being

more tech.

You

know,

we'll

we'll give them some

interaction with the tech.

Frank: yeah,

we'll give 'em an

AI friend.

You

know, there's a,

there's a couple of examples

that

are

the

book

and a

couple that didn't

make it,

uh,

that

were

great.

Interview,

interview

quotes

from teachers

the teacher, uh, I

think a

Spanish teacher Um, the

kids

are on their screens

and, uh,

she's six

feet away

and they

will

send her a message

the, on

the, device

instead

of just raising the hand and

asking

the question.

She

said,

Tim,

I'm

right here.

You

can ask me the

question.

Oh, nevermind.

And they're

not comfortable

having

that interaction, like

with the

adults.

But

you

know, like

Jean said, you walk into the

classroom and

you

can almost measure

without even

looking.

are

they on screens or not,

because of how

quiet.

it is.

lot less interaction.

And Jonathan, he talked

about as an anxious generation,

he's a

professor

NYU, right?

Um,

how

those last five minutes

before class started

would

the

most

bubbly

time

his lectures.

Everybody's talking to the person next to them, what they

did on

the

weekend or whatever,

whatever

test is coming

up.

And

now

it's the quietest

time.

It's

the

quietest time

because

everybody's on

their

phones.

And

the

same thing

think

happens

schools

that

allow phones.

what

used

the

most

bubbly

time, the

most,

you know,

the

most

interactive

time,

the

periods

right before,

right

before

class

started,

or,

or, uh, maybe the in the

passing period

had

become very

quiet.

Everybody's

walking

with their

head down.

so the

social

interaction piece

that's being lost

being

lost

the classroom during,

during

guided practice, during

closure, during

checking

for

understanding because

it's being done by the bot.

and

it's

being

lost outside of

the

classroom as

Bart: Are there any other things that teachers are telling you about student communication, resilience regulation?

Frank: Yeah.

never

had heard

the term

dys reg

dysregulation

before

until

about

two

years ago

about

the

ability to, to

kind

of center

themselves and

find how to, how to

behave.

So definitely

we've heard that.

think we

see

in our

programs as

well, that, that, all

the

pieces

you

asked

about are happening.

Gene Tavernetti: Well,

and I

think something else

that, that, we've been doing for, for quite

a long time, that the technology has exasperated,

have

have a

program

for everything.

The

kids don't communicate.

They

don't, oh,

SEL

let's have

a new program.

And, uh,

kids don't

have

self-esteem.

Well,

we need a new program.

And so we

have

all

of these

programs

that are

supposed to mitigate

again,

the issues that

are being exasperated by

the, the,

uh,

the technology.

But we don't go to technology.

don't

remove technology as an

answer.

We bring more

technology in.

And, and

it's just,

that's the, again, we're captive.

Our thinking doesn't move beyond

Frank: There's a, there's a good chapter in

the book,

uh,

that our,

our third,

uh, author

who's not

here

today,

' cause

she's

actually in a

school,

again, what I think

makes us different.

We're actually

schools every

week.

But

she

wrote

chapter on durable

skills and

integrating those

into

the lesson design.

and then to really

making that be

not

add-on program,

but

like,

you teach

a lesson and

you integrate

these skills, right?

You

integrate communication,

collaboration,

critical thinking.

It's not

an aside

and it's

not

program.

It's something

you just do

part of

your

lesson design.

probably

favorite part of

the book

the

superintendent

speech

at the end of

and

the

superintendent kind of

is compared

a superintendent

in the prologue

the book,

who

was

the

gung ho in 2014.

The

setting

is 2014

for the prologue.

Very gung-ho, very

like,

you

know,

let's get

this,

let's

get

this,

gotta

get a screen

in front

of every kid.

The

superintendent

2034,

which is the, which

is where the epilogue

is, says, we're not gonna do that.

We're gonna dial back.

We're gonna use 'em when, when

we need.

' 'em, But

they're

not gonna dominate our lives.

We don't like what we're seeing with our kids.

And

talks about durable skills and communication and collaboration and all of that.

And, and the super fictional superintendent says, um,

not that long ago, computer science

majors were like

the

exploding

major.

Right?

And

colleges

across the country,

some

those

kids

can't find a job now

because AI has

taken

that

away,

right?

need

to make the kids

durable themselves.

And

it's

not so

much the content,

it's not so much

the program

It's having

those skills

where

they

get to

adapt

and

interact

and

communicate and

collaborate.

That

missing.

And

it's not bringing in,

you know,

let's

add

SEL

program

or whatever.

It's, let's

integrate

into what the kids are doing every day.

Very

difficult

do if they're on screens

three or four hours a

day.

Bart: So if you were advising a superintendent tomorrow, what's the first move toward balance

Gene Tavernetti: by digital captives?

I, say

as a

joke, but you know, as Frank said,

this, is

what's

different about this book

is that

the three of us

who were

involved in this

book.

We're actually working in schools

the

aughts.

I never said

that

before

the aughts.

We,

were

working and seeing this,

seeing

this work, seeing, seeing,

uh,

what we

talked

about

actually

doing

this work,

you

know, that I'd be, you know

Frank

used

to you'd be at, be in your district doing,

doing that

work.

So we know that

it's

not enough to

identify the problem.

You

know, what, what can

do about

it?

It's

gonna be

difficult

get out

of the

problem

was

easy

to get in.

But

there

is a roadmap,

and

think

that's,

that's

the power

of, of this

book.

There

are

so many folks,

the

consulting

business who

like to go in and walk around and

say, ah, you

need to do this, you

need to

that,

but

how do you do it?

And

think that's

a big

difference

in, in, this book.

Frank: Yeah, I

think

spent, we spend basically

the intro

and

chapter

one

presenting

the problem

and

then,

uh, two

through

six

how

to,

how to get

out of that, And

so so

yeah,

read

the

book

would

be the

first

thing.

But

think

secondly, it

would

like,

let's

go to your

classrooms.

Let's

walk

classrooms randomly

and

let's just look

how engaged are

the students

with

only

one

variable?

Are

they

on screens or

not?

And

what

you're

gonna

see

the

more they're on

screens,

the less engaged.

um,

and I don't

need

a, you

know,

double

blind

experiment

for

that.

We can

just go

and

walk

into

classrooms, or probably

any school in

the

country

that,

any

mainstream public

school in the

country that,

purports

balanced

and we would see it.

Bart: So what does healthy intentional tech integration actually look like then?

Frank: that's a good

question.

were just having

conversation

yesterday actually with,

uh,

regarding

how to

use AI to

help us write,

um,

lessons.

that

integrate, collaboration, communication And everything

else.

It's not saying,

I'll

start

saying, what it's

not,

Um,

it's

not

taking the

Chromebooks away.

You

know, it's

not

that

the

kiddos are gonna

need

'em, they're gonna need

able to

every

day

use

it, we use email.

do,

fa uh,

video

conferences.

We're using technology

right now.

Right.

Um,

we're

gonna

put

this

out on social

media

we know that we need

to use

the devices.

What healthy

is,

it's

not the default.

The

default

is the

human interaction.

So I'd

be looking at

classroom

the

elementary level,

let's

say

you know,

the

kids

are

not

than

10%

the time

in the

primary grades.

There's

actually, in the

superintendent speech,

in chapter six,

gives

this theoretical,

graduated,

uh,

digital model

Where

kindergarten, first grade,

second

grade.

Kids aren't on, but like 10,

20% of the time,

the time you get to high school,

maybe 40% of the

time,

but

it's all

always less than the contact.

They're having human to they can get

the screens at

home.

They

shouldn't, but they

can.

What they can't get at home, at,

at home

the

the interaction

with 29 classmates.

Right,

They

can't

get

that.

So that's

part

that

I think

would be

a key piece in the balance,

Gene Tavernetti: you

know, and, and

many times,

uh,

administrators

we're afraid

make these

changes.

What's

gonna happen

if we do it?

You know,

when

the kids,

when

have convinced a

teacher

to try

lesson without

screens,

it's

almost like a sigh

relief.

The

kids are so happy

not

be on

the

Chromebook

all

period.

Or a big part of,

big

part

the

period.

They

miss it.

They miss it.

And, And,

that's

that transformational

things that

we're

talking

about.

And,

and

we learn from other people

and

we need

to have

that,

have that

contact.

are, um,

uh,

we're

stealing

that.

just

have

some,

some courage to try things.

Frank: I

was

a in

a math classroom,

alternative

education site.

Um,

kids are used to just being on the right?

That's, that's the nature

of an alternative

ed site

a lot

of the

And

convinced

the teacher to try

out

math

lesson

just six

kids

the class.

And

they,

you

know,

she

taught the lesson.

She had

a, a

hook

that

connected to

real life

learning.

She had an objective,

she

taught

the

big idea.

I think it was like computing simple Yeah,

that's

what

was.

And

was, the hook

was like,

if you have money in

the

bank, uh, what do you

have

interest or 4%

Uh,

and

then she

modeled

and

the

kids did

guided

practice

using

the whiteboards from

or prior to,

and

the

end

the

lesson,

we're

gonna

sit

down and

debrief the

lesson.

And

the student,

had

walked

out and walked back in

and she

said,

miss, can

we do that again

tomorrow?

Yeah.

The teacher

said,

The

teacher

said,

uh,

did

you

enjoy that?

And she's like, yeah, I

like learning.

You know, So I

think

that

there's,

that,

that's

huge aha,

but

gotta

convince the teacher to go

back

and do

again tomorrow

because

it's

so easy to

not,

right?

yeah, that, that,

uh,

that was

like a

really

telling

moment for me,

both for

what

Gene was

saying

and

for

how

hard

it is

to break those

habits

that have become ingrained in the last

three, 10 years.

Bart: What questions should leaders be asking before adopting new tech, especially ai?

Frank: Well,

there's

whole

chapter

it,

and

it's,

um, it's called,

uh, using

the

educational

vision or

instructional vision as a filter.

Um,

and that should

be question

number

one is what's

our purpose

here?

whatever

school

district, there's a fictional school district

called

Irving

School District in the beginning,

what is

our purpose in

the Irving

School District?

What

our mission,

our vision?

that

should be

the first filter.

Does

it fit

the

vision

not?

our vision we

say we want

kids who can collaborate,

kids who

can

communicate well, who can

sustain

focus,

who

can read deeply?

this

program doing that?

Let's

say that

it is doing all

those

Then

the

question

is,

okay,

what's

it replacing?

Right?

that's,

it's always

opportunity.

Cost question

you

only

have six hours in a day.

How

good

must

this program be

Tola to take some of those

six hours, right?

Because I

mean those, that's

the

most valuable

resource that schools have

that

time

with the

kiddos.

And

if you're

gonna take some

that

time

away and turn

it over

a screen,

boy

better meet your vision.

better meet

your

instructional program.

Um,

and then

better

doing

a better job of

it.

Um, one last quote.

I know you wants to jump in on this one as well, but from the same Spanish teacher actually, she was talking about, when

you're in a

Spanish

class,

um, or any

language class

you

practice,

right?

well now

you can

practice with

bot

instead of practicing with a person.

And

what

the

teacher was

talking about

just

how,

much

more formulaic the

practice

is.

Now,

in the past, you know,

you

would,

make

eye to eye

contact.

You

practice

whatever

the phrase is.

You're

learning,

you,

you

giggle,

you embarrass yourself

little

bit,

but

you learn from

that,

right?

You

learn

deal

with embarrassment.

You learn

how to.

Put

yourself out

there

little bit.

But when

you.

getting

that feedback

from

screen, it's only, it's only really assessing were you correct or Um, so I think back to your question of what should superintendent ask themselves?

I think it's that it's like, what is being lost besides the time, besides does it fit into our vision?

The, it's a, it's like, what are we losing by, by turning to this program instead of having that human

Gene Tavernetti: you know, and I, and

I think the whole vision thing, there's probably people rolling their eyes,

oh,

we're

gonna have

another vision.

But, but this is

really

an important,

criteria to make

those decisions

because

it's

not like

you're, you're,

uh,

new text

adoption that you have a year to do it, and you have all this time because these people

are

coming

out with these apps, you know, one, one after another.

So you have to have some sort

of grounding

to make these decisions, and you have to

make them fairly quickly.

Because you have teachers all that.

They found

this one,

they

found

that one, and then

the one that they gave up that platform, guess what?

They

just have a super improved version.

And so if you aren't grounded

what

are all about,

you

know,

instructionally,

you're gonna just

flounder

every time, every time we have one

of those issues.

And when

the decisions

aren't made

and they

aren't

clear

the teachers,

they

just

think, oh,

there's

capricious.

They,

oh, they're anti-tech.

They're, no, we have to,

have

have that

vision.

Does this

match

the

vision?

And

it has

expressed

how

this,

this

decision

was

made.

Frank: Yeah.

Dr. Smith

was in

a, in

elementary school

recently, Donna,

just

morning

walk in two hours

at an

elementary

school.

They, she,

she

and the administrator

that

she

was

walking

with

came across 12

student

facing

apps

that

hadn't

made

their

way

through

any sort

of district

filtering system.

You

know, these

are

apps

that,

that

are, again,

student

facing

are

taking student time, but

in some

cases

they even

require

student

personal

information being entered into

And,

um,

the

administrators

were shocked.

But I

think one,

one

truth

that we've learned

is,

you

know,

going

back

your fictional

superintendent,

uh,

and you asked

like,

what

would you

advise

a superintendent

is, maybe

the very

first

thing

would

be,

want you to

estimate

how

many

minutes

we're gonna

see

students

are

on screens.

And

almost

always,

it's an underestimate.

Yeah.

And

think

you

the

secondary level,

you know, kids go

from period

period,

cohort of kids the whole

then

you'll get

a real

understanding about, oh man,

it's

true.

They're getting this

in period one, this in

period

two, this in

period

three.

And

some

the programs

are good, but

they

should

supplementary, they should

not

replacing,

right.

They,

they,

they

should be

augmenting, they should not

taking the place

up.

And

many

places

it's actually become the instruction

Gene Tavernetti: or

substitute for

instruction more accurately, I think.

Bart: Makes sense.

If we get this right, what could schools look like five years from now?

Frank: Well,

that's

what started

this

whole thing

was I was

asking

people,

you

know, in positions like

yourself,

what

does this look

like in

2032?

And

in some of the responses

that

got,

uh,

that

we got were

like,

2032, I wanna make it

to next,

week,

you know,

because

was tough

coming outta the

pandemic,

right?

With

the kiddos

running

for

the

hills like we were talking

about,

and

the,

The mental

health

concerns and teachers,

uh,

worried

about

get coming

back

well.

was

really

tough in that

setting.

22, 23,

24.

we're

asking that,

but

I think,

uh,

you know, chapter

six

and

then the

epilogue really

talk

about,

um, what

they should look like if

What

it should look like is

standards based, intentional personal

instruction

in the

classroom

with

durable

skills

being built,

technology

being used

in an,

an augmenting

manner.

But outside

that,

there's

connections

going

with,

you

know, local parks

and

rec

Nicholas

Bloom,

uh,

Nicholas Carr's

book,

super

Bloom, he

talks

about

the decline

in, in youth,

Um.

You know, sports

league activities,

scouting

church

activities,

something like

800 hours a

year for the average

teenager

the last

years.

Decline

in terms of interacting

with

others.

would

be not just

what's going on in the school,

in our

vision, in

our

hope, the school

becomes a catalyst for a community wide and

it might

be asking

a lot,

especially

in really

large districts and really big

urban areas, but definitely you can be a hub.

can be

a hub where like, you know,

restaurant

nights in this community Thursday is no

screens today.

Gene Tavernetti: Something else that I think

is gonna

be happening

in,

in the public schools

is, um, uh, especially when we're

asking schools to have an instructional vision there will be

a lot

of schools of choice.

because that's

one

the things

that,

that

we have found out

or that we're

competing against, is all of

these

charter

schools

that

pop up with an emphasis with, with

something.

And I,

I, I

think that,

I think that's good that, that we have choice, but

we have

sure that

it's, we're

protecting

the kids

the

way that,

the

way

that

Frank

just,

talked about,

unless,

you

know,

the, the, uh,

you know, we've

got these, these alpha schools, alpha School

now,

unless

you

just

choose

that for

your

kids,

but

we need to, you know,

be really

clear about

who

we are

and,

and who we are is

the

way Frank

described

right now is

not,

a bad place to

in the marketplace.

think a

lot of

people

would

choose

that,

but

like many, like many charters

or,

you

know,

they

start

out

in a certain

way

and

then

they

devolve.

think

have to

very careful

about,

uh, about maintaining that, that instructional vision

that

people

have an expectation of, you know, you come to here in this school

district, this

is,

this

is what

you're gonna get.

And,

you

know,

and

it's

okay.

You know, if you

want

your

kids

be on

screens

eight

hours a day,

you know, then it's, this place isn't,

isn't for you.

But, but I think, you know, because of,

how

effective

know we can be

with the, with the technology

augment

quality

instruction, I, I think, I think we can create some good product.

Frank: I

think,

um,

the

book is really

augmented,

um,

teacher

interviews

that

did.

We probably

did

like three

dozen

teacher interviews, uh, k

through

college across the

country,

small

districts,

huge

districts,

uh,

suburban districts,

urban districts, rural

districts.

one

the things

noticed

is that

lot

teachers

talked

about

parents starting

to push back

On the amount of screen And

some.

Districts

where

the

te the

teachers

interviewed

for

one particular subset of questions,

needed

them

to have been in

the

classroom teaching the

same

grade

or close

a similar

socioeconomic level,

14,

24. 'cause we

were

asking

questions like comparing, comparing,

you know,

student, behaviors

and such.

and

what

heard

from them is

that

the

same

parents who in

for

their older

kids

were

advocating, you

know, more

and

more,

you gotta catch

up.

We gotta catch

2024.

We're saying

for

their younger

kids,

let's

get them

off

too much

screen time.

Um,

the

same

parents.

And so

I think

that

there's

a groundswell

and

it isn't

just the books,

it isn't

just

digital

delusions.

It isn't just

ours.

isn't

just

the

articles

in the, in education next and in in New York Times,

I think

that

parents

are

seeing

it.

Um,

were

doing some research just for promotional

purposes.

found a

Facebook

group.

that's

reduced my kids'

screen

time,

something

that.

280,000

members

of parent members in the

us.

I mean, That's

pretty big group.

There's

there's

groundswell

for

it.

So I

think that,

um,

Jean said,

you want

your

child

have that, you're gonna definitely

have

the option if you

want it to be

a screen for six, eight hours a

parents

didn't

choose this.

They didn't choose what

we're seeing right now.

And that's what we need to walk back,

that

if they want that choice, they can

have

it.

But this isn't what we should be doing

in the mainstream public

Gene Tavernetti: And I, and I

think the big

a big takeaway

is nobody made this choice.

It just happened.

Bart: just happened.

Yeah.

I've really appreciated this conversation.

In closing, I'd like to ask you what gives you hope?

Gene Tavernetti: you know, there

is A reaction.

Unfortunately,

it's another pendulum swing, from all

these screens to

no screen

time.

That's

not,

that's

not

sustainable,

That's not reality.

That is not where we're going.

so I, I, I think

the

fact that there are 280,000,

I think that there are people,

you

know, stepping, stepping forward.

Uh, that

gives

me hope.

what diminishes

that,

that hopefulness

little

bit

that

it's

always an overreaction.

you

know,

we,

we can see that

in,

many of the things that are going on,

like in schools of choice right

now,

where in states where they could take their kids someplace else.

The question

is,

what

happens?

What happens to the

students

that, that, have

special

needs?

They

don't worry about

them,

you

know,

but

that's something that, again,

this

going

back to institutional memory.

This isn't new.

You

know,

we have these,

these

things

place

because of

who we

were

before

and we

need,

and we needed

to get better.

So,

what

gives me

hope?

people

thinking about,

um,

you

know,

there's a better way

education

Frank: I

think

Jean

might

hopeful

than

me,

but,

um,

talking about

the

institutional

memory,

you

know, there, if

you go back,

least as

far

back

Madeline

Hunter in the sixties and

seventies, uh,

the

Effective

Schools movement,

uh, Ronald Edmonds,

uh, Marzano

the nineties and

two

thousands,

the, and now his

evaluation

center,

the

19 90,

90,

schools,

the

the New Teacher

Project

Teach

for

America,

which

is how I started How

got into teaching.

we,

know

that

there's an alternative path

that is actually

a very

good,

Path and, and, and

know

how,

what

we should be doing in

The

question

that

Ronald

Mond's, uh, the effect of schools movement task is

how

we feel

about the fact that we haven't so

that's the

hope.

The hope

that

know

what we've gotta do.

concern

is,

and this is

part

our

parent

education

series,

' cause

also

do parent

education,

which

is actually another piece

it that I think

is something we

do that nobody else we're also working with

the

parents,

that

I'm

not

gonna

name any.

companies.

don't

wanna get su

don't want, we

don't

want to

get

sued.

But,

you

know,

in,

uh,

in the prologue of

the book where the

superintendent is

really pitching, we're

gonna

go after this money

and

need

get

screen

in front of

every kid.

He talks about,

getting

a particular

type

laptop

into every child's hand because

the

digital

companies are being great social

citizens.

They're

helping the kids get

access

to the

screens.

They're

helping

write

the,

the common

core

assessments, you know, smarter balance in

the park.

and

later

found

out

that

some of

those

same

companies

were

data mining those

kids

young as four years

old.

I, what

gives

pause is that,

that

there's

a villain

the

other

You

know,

wasn't

conscious

choice

schools to go down this path.

It was

this

broader

digital immersion,

but

there was

conscious

choice.

So folks

who

are

data

mining,

four

year olds,

five year

olds.

They

who

were giving

free

access,

let's

say.

But

then data mining

what

the

kids

were

writing so

that

they

can market to them a

few years

later.

There

definitely is a

villain in this, And that's what gives me but

hopefully this

groundswell, you know, the senate hearings that we're seeing now,

there's

gonna

be enough of a.

not a not a

revolt, but,

but

a pushback.

And I do hope that to Jean's

point

that we just don't go so far the

other way that then we

then

lose,

you

know,

just becomes

that pendulum again.

Gene Tavernetti: I

think

just the

who we

are

in the United

States,

you

can't tell

what to do.

And then you

have,

uh, you know,

I don't know

how many school districts you worked in a, in a small school

district

For a while

and

they

had

school

board

and

they didn't

want

anybody telling them what to do.

And so

it, it, it's,

it's

difficult

who

are,

who

are

our strength

and who

are

is,

uh, makes

anything

changing

education

difficult.

Bart: Yes.

Well, thank you both so much.

Gene Tavernetti: Thank you.

Frank: Thank you Bur yeah.

Gene Tavernetti: yeah.

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