Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Episode 4 – “Why You Keep Fighting About Money, Intimacy, and Chores (and how to stop it)"

In this episode of The Lion Counseling Podcast, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist) and Zack Carter (Counselor & Coach) tackle one of the most common issues couples face: relationship conflict.
Whether you’re married, dating, or engaged, this conversation dives into real-world strategies for improving communication, deescalating arguments, and building deeper emotional connection. From fights about sex, money, and chores, to everyday misunderstandings, Mark and Zack break down the patterns that keep couples stuck—and how to break free from them.

🔍 In This Episode:
  • How to avoid the most common relationship fights before they start
  • What your partner really needs when they’re upset (hint: not a solution)
  • Why the emotion wheel is a game-changer for emotional awareness
  • A simple method to de-escalate arguments using reflections of thought and emotion
  • How to use the “slow startup” technique for difficult conversations
  • The difference between criticism vs. expressing needs positively
  • The power of empathy and validation in building connection
  • Why timing and tone are just as important as the words you say
  • How to ask open-ended questions that invite teamwork instead of conflict
  • Faith-based insights on humility, self-awareness, and showing up well for your spouse or partner
💬 Zack and Mark share lessons from their work as therapists, coaches, and husbands—along with practical tips you can start using today to build stronger, more emotionally intelligent relationships.

About the Show:
The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the lions they were created to be. Hosted by the team at Lion Counseling, we focus on mental health, marriage, masculinity, faith, and self-improvement from a grounded, real-world perspective.

👉 Want to strengthen your relationship? Visit www.escapethecagenow.com to schedule couples counseling or life coaching with Mark or Zack.

📲 Don’t forget to subscribe, like, and hit the bell so you never miss an episode.

💬 What’s one communication skill you’ve learned that’s helped your relationship? Let us know in the comments.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
#RelationshipAdvice #MarriageHelp #ChristianMarriage #MensMentalHealth #CouplesTherapy #AvoidFights #BetterCommunication #EmotionalIntelligence #PodcastForMen #FaithAndRelationships #SlowStartup #ValidateEmotions #ConflictResolution #LionCounseling #EscapeTheCage

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland:

Welcome everyone to the Lion Counseling Podcast. I'm Mark Odland, founder of Lion Counseling, and this is Zach Carter. Our mission is to help men obtain success and purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and their personal lives. And today we're talking about communication and specifically how to avoid arguments with your significant other. If you are looking for help in your life, feel free to reach out at escape the cage now dot com or check out the link in the description box.

Mark Odland:

Alright. So let's let's kick this off, Zach. In all your experience as a as a counselor, working with guys, working with couples, what would you say are some of the the biggest reasons or maybe one of the big reasons why couples argue? Yeah.

Zack Carter:

I mean, it definitely is going to depend on, you know, whether they're dating or married and Yeah. You know, some of so there's gonna be some overlap, but let's let's talk about marriages today, for instance. Sure. So I think some of the biggest things are things like money, sex, and, you know, dividing up household chores, those kinds of things. Who does what?

Zack Carter:

Right? Or oftentimes things that come up. I think it would be great to talk about like maybe using sex as an example for today on if you're fighting your spouse around sex. Right? You want more frequency.

Zack Carter:

She wants less frequent frequency. Sometimes it's also reversed. Yep. So, like, what do you do? Well, the first thing I I want you to realize realize is that sometimes you you have to do prep in advance before you get into discussions, especially ones that have already gotten heated in the past.

Zack Carter:

And so maybe some prep if you're out there saying, like, what what do I need to do to avoid this fight with with my wife? You need to understand first that when you're angry, when you're anxious, the brain is designed to go into all or nothing thinking. Why? If we go back in time, you got the the the cave the cavemen running around that they're near a bear. The bear is running at them, and they don't have the time to say, like, oh, is this a brown bear?

Zack Carter:

Is this a black bear? What kind of like, is it dangerous? Is it not no. It's like, either I run or I die. Like, those are the two options.

Zack Carter:

Right? It's our brain is designed physiologically to to do that all or nothing thinking for survival. Right? But what works with us in situations like being chased by a bear or being in traffic and almost being hit or or being attacked by someone is not as good is is not always as beneficial when you're discussing problems with your wife. So first off, you wanna figure out in a calm place away from the spouse.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Okay. What evidence do I have to my point? And what evidence does she have for her point? Right?

Zack Carter:

We wanna begin to see nuance and not do that black or white thinking, that all or nothing thinking. Okay? Because oftentimes the truth is somewhere in the middle. Even if it's 80% you're in the right and 20% she's in the in the right. You need to kinda figure that out.

Zack Carter:

Do you have any any thoughts on that?

Mark Odland:

Well, I'm always right, Zach. 100 %. It's really it's really hard for me to relate to this topic, but no. Yeah. I know.

Zack Carter:

It's so hard to relate.

Mark Odland:

There that's there's a lot of wisdom there. Right? Because there's humility. And chances are they have a point, we have a point. I mean, I'll tell a couple sometimes, or if I'm working with someone who's pretty sure they're right and I'm not quite convinced, I might say, all right, let's just say you're 95% right.

Mark Odland:

I'm thinking it's fifty fifty, but Yeah. Let's just say it's 95% right. Let's make sure you own that 5%. Like, let's be truthful about this situation. And and by the way, if there's winners and losers in a marriage, that doesn't work so well.

Mark Odland:

Right? Like, how do you how do you be a team that trusts each other moving through life together, through all of life's ups and downs if there's winners and losers? Right? So I I feel like something about what what you're saying about being humble enough to and and and actually trying to fire up that neocortex, right, to have the thinking brain online instead of feeling like we're in a survival situation to be like, no. This is someone I love.

Mark Odland:

They love me. This is not life or death. It's important. And by the way, if I'm in fight mode or if I'm in retreat mode, this communication is not gonna work. And so I love what you're saying about taking ownership for your piece, thinking it through rationally, and, yeah, get that getting that thinking brain going.

Mark Odland:

It all seems like prereq yeah. The way you said prerequisites almost to not just going in guns blazing and hope for the best.

Zack Carter:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. And and, you know, John John Gottman, you know, talks about criticism and defensiveness. And he says that the the antidote, the fix for defensiveness is owning your part of the argument. So even if it's to your point, Mark, five percent, maybe you raised your voice. Right.

Zack Carter:

Maybe you're I I think, Mark, you were joking, but, like, I think that, you know, many men will acknowledge that oftentimes their wives is right, and sometimes that's frustrating because you wanna be right. But oftentimes they're right. Right? And so but if you could even if you it is one of those situations where you are mostly in the right. Yep. If you can say, you know what? I raised my voice. That's my 5% or that's my 10%.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Babe, let me apologize that I raised my voice. I I really need to speak to you in a respectful and a calm way, and I I didn't do that. Right? And what you'll what you'll notice is that that's gonna that's gonna oftentimes decrease the intensity of the of the argument. Not always.

Zack Carter:

Not always. There there are people that will use that against you, but especially if you have someone that loves you and you love them back, a lot of times that will decrease the intensity. Yeah. Right? So number one, get out of that all or nothing thinking.

Zack Carter:

Right? Try to see the nuance. Yeah. Secondly, here it goes, guys. I'm gonna say it again.

Zack Carter:

If you've been listening to the other episodes, we're gonna talk about emotions. So what is this? This is an emotion wheel. Okay? Yep.

Zack Carter:

This is your friend. No. Not the emotion wheel. Yes. So emotion wheel can be your best friend because you actually need to figure out not just what you're thinking, not not just your logical arguments, but also the the emotions of what's going on.

Zack Carter:

Right? Because just think about it for a second. If you tell the other person, I'm really pissed off at you. Right? What do you think is gonna happen on their end?

Zack Carter:

Do you think they're gonna be open to hearing your point of view? Are you open if if they come at you that way? If they come at you with anger, right? Oftentimes that's going to cause more arguments. So if you can figure out a different emotion other than anger, oftentimes they might be more receptive, right?

Zack Carter:

And so you can find emotion wheels online. You don't have to buy one. I bought one, but you can find them. They look really overwhelming. All you do is you start in the middle and then you you work your way out to feel to find out what you're feeling.

Zack Carter:

And so maybe you've maybe you figure out, okay. I want like, it's not about anger. It's about I was disappointed in the situation, or I was confused by the situation, or I was overwhelmed, or, you know, I had insecurities come up, if we're honest. We had some insecurities. If you can figure that out, that's gonna be helpful in this kind of prep stage to be able to communicate with your wife so that she's gonna be less likely to escalate.

Zack Carter:

Right? Any thoughts, Mark?

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I mean, I think it makes it makes a lot of sense. Right? Because even if you are a guy who values, say, stoicism, and you see the value of steadiness in your life and not living being mastered by your emotions, like not being ruled by your emotions, it's like, yeah, that that can be very true, but that doesn't mean neglecting your emotions. Because deep down, I mean, we want to have love in our lives.

Mark Odland:

And the love that we have for our families, for our significant other, for our spouse, for our kids, for our community. Deep down, if we're honest, that that's really important. That's like the good stuff. Like, it makes life worth living. Right?

Mark Odland:

And and so we don't wanna neglect that part of our lives. We want to go after it with the same intentionality that we would say in our business or some other avenue of life where we've seen success hopefully. And but but yeah. I mean, it's it's it tends to be a blind spot. It has for me even in my life where you can be rocking it in one area of your life.

Mark Odland:

And then I mean, man, it doesn't go over well when, like, you have a master's degree in in therapy, and then you'd totally blow it in a conversation with your wife.

Mark Odland:

It's like, I should know

Zack Carter:

Oh, that's not just me.

Mark Odland:

I should I should know this. So it's one of those things where you can never get enough reminders of just knowing the rules of the game and knowing strategies that are more or less effective. And often our spouses are, you know, are wired a little differently than we are. And and we have to meet them halfway to have a successful relationship. And if we're gonna operate in that supposedly logical mode when we're not really logical, it's just that we're not shoving down the emotions, then it's gonna lead a lot of disconnection in the relationship and not probably go very well.

Mark Odland:

And so so for yeah. Know when you brought up the feelings wheel, like, I was worried my testosterone level was gonna drop a few hundred points.

Zack Carter:

It dropped a little bit. A little bit.

Zack Carter:

Just be honest. I Mean... but

Zack Carter:

for for both of us.

Mark Odland:

But I think research probably shows that it goes back up again after the our, you know, conversation's over. Let's just stick with that for

Zack Carter:

now. You'll you'll survive, guys, if you if you use the emotion wheel. You're gonna be alright. Alright. So Alright.

Zack Carter:

All all that was was so well said. It's so good to hear not just me, but other counselors like yourself, Mark, say, you know, like, we have these tools as well, but we're not perfect at them. And that we're doing our best. Right? And so but we need to start with understanding what are the tools.

Zack Carter:

Right? Even if you're not using them perfectly. Like Right. Mark and I are not using these perfectly, but we are trying to use them. And and a lot of times for for me and my wife, it's it's initially maybe I I do the wrong thing initially, and then I come back when I'm level headed.

Zack Carter:

And then, like, I do the right thing the second time. So if that's you out there, like, you can come back. You can do a redo and try again. Right? So what do we actually do when we're in a better headspace, when we're coming back?

Mark Odland:

Well Yep.

Zack Carter:

So I've mentioned John Gottman once. If you don't know who John Gottman is, he's like the premier researcher extraordinaire of couples relationships. Guy really knows what he's talking about. And he came up with this method of conversation that I use when I'm teaching people about confronting their boss, confronting family members, or confronting their wife, or just communicating with the other person that leads to less arguments while still getting your point across. And Gottman calls it the slow start up.

Zack Carter:

Right? So it's you talk about yourself versus talking about them. You avoid you statements. Right? You wanna talk about I statements.

Zack Carter:

Me. I. This is what's going on for me. Right? If you say you statements, it's gonna they're gonna take it as criticism oftentimes, and it's gonna lead to the fight.

Zack Carter:

Right? So if you're trying to avoid the fight, talk about yourself. Okay? Next, we're gonna talk about the emotion. Right?

Zack Carter:

So this is why I had you prepped already with the emotion wheel is that you gotta figure out what you're actually feeling. Right? And so if you're having a conversation around sex and you say, look, babe, I'm I'm really feeling disappointed because I I was hoping that you and I would be able to connect sexually more more often. Right? You're you're talking about you're you're not saying like, hey.

Zack Carter:

It's really pissing me off that you won't have sex with me. Right? Probably not gonna go well. Right. Like, talk about yourself.

Zack Carter:

Right? Talk about the emotion. And then the last part, so if Gottman says, I emotion and then express positive need, what is the need? Well, typically, a marriage, the need is I wanna connect with you. I want to feel loved and want you to feel loved.

Zack Carter:

I wanna feel safe. I want you to feel safe. Right? So whatever that underlying need is, you gotta figure out what that need is. Right?

Zack Carter:

It's not just about getting sexual release.

Mark Odland:

Right.

Zack Carter:

It's about connecting with your spouse. So if you're using the slow start up, it would sound like something like, babe, you know, I just wanted to to let you know, I've I've been feeling kinda disappointed lately because I really want to connect with you sexually. We we haven't been able to do that very frequently. Right? So you're you're stating what the problem is.

Zack Carter:

The problem isn't her. The problem is that sex the frequency of sex isn't happening. And the last point before I throw it to Mark is you ask the other person to solve the problem. Okay. Babe, what do you think we could do about this so that you feel like you're getting your needs met and I can feel like I'm getting my needs met.

Zack Carter:

Right. And maybe she says, look, I don't have time for sex. I got all these kids running around. I got a job. I've got chores around that.

Zack Carter:

Like I got all this stuff. Okay. Sounds like things are crazy busy. What do you think we could do to make things less busy? Right?

Zack Carter:

So once again, you ask them to solve the problem. Right? So if she's saying it's busyness or maybe she doesn't feel loved, dang. What can I do? What can we do to make sure you're feeling more loved so you're more open to sex?

Zack Carter:

Right? So this is how you're gonna have a healthy conversation with your spouse. Alright, Mark. Take it away.

Mark Odland:

Don't think I can add anything, Zach. You you nailed it. No. I but, yeah, I mean, there is genius in that approach. I think not only are you going in as the guy.

Mark Odland:

Right? So so as the guy, we go into the situation. We've prepped ourself so it's not all or nothing thinking. We're hopefully aware of our emotion, what the core emotion is and the need, but we're not but we're but we're fairly calm as we go into that situation. And so we're not feeling like we're in a fight or flight situation.

Mark Odland:

We're not feeling unsafe as we're talking, and we're not making them feel accused or attacked or unsafe as we deliver the message. And, I mean, that that totally jives with my experience with couples as well because I I've tended to be come more and more more and more of a referee over the years when I do couples therapy because some couples are able to sit there on the couch and really talk calmly to each other and others they're so escalated and there's so many triggers, so many things that spike painful emotions that it's really hard for them to feel heard by each other, really hard to feel understood. And they both have such hurt inside. The problem is they talk over each other, they interrupt each other, and they're misinterpreting what the other person's saying. And and and no wonder.

Mark Odland:

Right? If instead of a problem that you can solve together and there's valid ideas on both sides and we we the baseline is we both love each other and want the best for each other, Instead, those those insecurities start coming out. Well, she doesn't really love me. Oh, he's just trying to control me. You know, those deep things that come from other, you know, other wounds in our life perhaps show up in the marriage.

Mark Odland:

And unless you have a framework for kind of keeping those emotions under control so you can actually have a a conversation, like, doesn't get get very far. And I guess the last thing I'd say is, you know, if if you're a guy listening to this and you're like, hey. We've got a pretty good marriage. Nine 90% of the time, we get along great, but it's these two or three issues. Right?

Mark Odland:

Or it's just one issue. Whatever I try to bring it up, it just goes nowhere. It just blows up. And now I don't even wanna talk about it. I don't even wanna bring it up because if I do, we're just gonna both feel worse afterwards.

Mark Odland:

It won't solve the problem. So I think, what you're saying, Zach, is speaking hope into that situation to say there is another way to do it, and it's not easy. But with practice, it could feel very different. And an argument that in the past went on for an hour and got nowhere could kind of find some resolution in in, like, I don't know, five, ten, fifteen minutes. Like, you're kinda like, oh, maybe we didn't solve it completely, but man, this feels different.

Mark Odland:

This feels a lot better.

Zack Carter:

Right. And if and if you're out there and you're like, look. We've we've tried a bunch of things. We just can't do it. That that's that's why Mark and I do what we do.

Zack Carter:

Right? Right. And so if if you guys are in that place, like, reach out to us. Right? Like, we're we're here to to help you.

Zack Carter:

So sometimes you do need that referee. Sometimes it's gotten to a point where you just you just can't have these discussions.

Mark Odland:

Yep.

Zack Carter:

So, yeah, reach out for help if you're if you're feeling that. You know, Mark, I you know, the other day in our you know, one of our one of our meetings, you had mentioned a really, really great technique for how you could even start your sentences Yes. To maybe decrease the intensity of the fight. Would you would you wanna share?

Mark Odland:

Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's essentially comes from that spirit of of generosity, seeing the the best in the other person, assuming the best, and kind of, like, choosing that path instead of the path of resentment and all or nothing thinking and assuming the worst. Right?

Mark Odland:

And it's it could be something as simple as saying back to the say, imagine talking to the spouse. Hey, honey. Like, I'm I'm I know you didn't intend this or I'm sure it wasn't your you know, you weren't trying to do this. But when we had this conversation the other day, it actually, like, kinda hurt. And it it made me feel disrespected or it made me feel this way or made me feel that way.

Mark Odland:

And I

Zack Carter:

know sometimes we even wanna get away from it made me. Like, we wanna take responsibility for our

Mark Odland:

own our own emotions too, but we're just kinda recognizing that cause and effect. Like, yeah, I know you didn't try. I'm sure you didn't try to, but, like, maybe I'm being oversensitive here, but I it kinda stuck with me, that's why I've been probably more grumpy than usual the last day. And I'm sorry it's taken all day for me to kind of muster up how to communicate this with you, but here it is. And there's something about assuming the best.

Mark Odland:

I'm sure you didn't try to hurt me. Maybe being a little self deprecating. Hey, maybe I'm being oversensitive, maybe I'm overreacting here, but here's the genuine feeling. And because hopefully she's not feeling attacked, she's in a better position to express empathy or love in that moment, still might be some there's some some defensiveness might rise up depending on the topic. Right?

Mark Odland:

But, yeah, I think there's there's something about that disarming where someone right off the bat, they're like, oh, they're giving me a way out. I didn't try to hurt them. That I I appreciate that. Like, they're not saying I'm a bad person. And now I I don't have to defend that.

Mark Odland:

I can just stick with what the topic is. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. That's so good. I just I just love that. I it's such a simple phrase. And even if that's the one thing you take away is, I'm sure you didn't mean this, but, like, that's such a powerful phrase to just kinda, like, deescalate the situation.

Zack Carter:

So good. So but, Mark, what if they tell us, like, look, dude. We're at a place that if I try to put my point across in any way, it's gonna blow up. If I say this is how it made me feel, then they take it personally and say, oh, so you're saying I'm the bad guy. Right?

Zack Carter:

Okay. Have I got the thing for you? Okay. So here's here's the last here's the last thing. So, they're called reflections.

Zack Carter:

Okay? Reflections of thought, reflection of emotion. Now Mark and I would have learned about these in our master's programs when we were learning how to be counselors. And there was a day where I was watching a video of a psychiatrist, and he was teaching communication practices to people, and he was teaching them them these reflections. And I was like, what are you doing, dude?

Zack Carter:

Those that's what you're supposed to do in counseling. And I was like, wait a second. If you could do it in counseling, why can't you do it in real life? And so I love teaching people reflections, what they are, and how to use them. It's also my favorite thing to use when I'm in a political discussion with someone, and I really don't wanna be in a political discussion with someone that you know, I just don't wanna get into an argument.

Zack Carter:

Right? And so what are reflections? Where reflections are essentially where you pretend like you're a mirror. Okay? So someone says something to you, and you bounce that thing back to them.

Zack Carter:

Okay? So what does that mean? So your your wife comes home, and she says, you know, Nancy, that jerk at work, is always talking behind my back to people, and I'm just sick of it. She's making me so angry. Now as a dude, our first thought is let's fix the problem.

Zack Carter:

We let's fix this. Right? And so you're like, well, have you talked to your boss yet? And other idiot ideas that we come up with, like, of course, you would have thought of that if that thing would have worked. Right?

Zack Carter:

What what your wife doesn't want in that moment is for you to problem solve. This is the thing that I'm still learning. I'm still learning this. And then whenever I try to problem solve and it doesn't work, I'm like, right. Do a reflection.

Zack Carter:

So what does your wife want? Well, there's a there's a show that maybe many of you have watched called Parks and Rec. And Nice. There's this episode. Have you seen it, Mark?

Mark Odland:

Oh, love it.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Okay. Maybe you remember this episode. So there's an episode where the Rob Lowe character who is just always always happy and problem solver and is always always excited. He's just the, you know, the greatest guy all the time.

Zack Carter:

He's dating this girl who they they end up getting pregnant. And so as she gets bigger and bigger and bigger, she's starting to, like, her feet are hurting and her back hurts and all these things. And so Rob Lowe, like, any good man is like, let me solve these problems for you. So he's like buying new gadgets for her and getting lotion and all this stuff, and it's annoying her to no end. And he doesn't even realize it.

Zack Carter:

So friends have to sit him down and say, look, dude. You need to learn two words. That sucks. He's like, that sucks? They're like, yes.

Zack Carter:

That sucks. K? Yep. So as the as the episode comes to an end, she starts to list all her problems. He starts to say that sucks.

Zack Carter:

That is super powerful, guys. Like, trying to do that. So when your when your wife comes home and she's listing off about how how much of a jerk Nancy is, how how do you do it? So you just summarize what she says and bounce it back. Right?

Zack Carter:

So, wow. Sounds like Nancy's really being a jerk to you. Yeah. Like, that that's all you gotta say. Right?

Zack Carter:

You literally just say the thing back to her. Right? So that's a reflection of thought, like, what she's saying. If you're doing reflection of emotion, she said, it's making me so angry. Man, I bet you're angry.

Zack Carter:

That's that's infuriating. Right? And what you're doing for her is you're confirming that she's not crazy. Right. You're confirming that you're listening.

Zack Carter:

You're confirming that you're caring. And if you do that, that will also help to avoid fights. Any any thoughts, Mark?

Mark Odland:

That's like magic right there, Zach. I mean, you have just saved so many conflicts for the guys listening to this. It tends to be a very true thing, and it might feel very odd and even been almost beneath some guys to be like, really? I've just gotta have my script? Like, I've gotta be this, like, mirror actor?

Mark Odland:

And, yeah, kinda. Like, yeah, a little bit. But I think we have to come back to the the foundation. Right? What's the foundation?

Mark Odland:

I love my wife. Mhmm. What is what do I see my role as? Okay. If big picture, I see myself as a protect a protector, well, that's not just keeping the bad guys away.

Mark Odland:

That's like caring for her heart. Right? And helping her feel safe and connected. And kind of a metaphor that's kind of in the medicine is on my mind, medical stuff because my 14 year old son blew out his knee in basketball and it was rough. And I'm just so grateful to have an orthopedic surgeon who accurately diagnosed his problem.

Mark Odland:

Did the right imaging, did the right tests. Now we know what to do. And I think as guys, we misdiagnose the situation. When our wife is sharing negative, quote unquote negative emotion or difficult feelings about something, we diagnose it as she's suffering, what is the most efficient path to eliminate her suffering, and then we problem solve. And it's in a good spirit.

Mark Odland:

Like, we genuinely want to express love that way. But what we're missing is and you kind of hit on this Zack, we're missing it in the moment the real diagnosis is she wants to connect with me. She wants to feel heard. She wants to feel not crazy. She wants to feel like we're in this together.

Mark Odland:

She wants to feel loved. And then once you hit the target with that, she's probably more than capable of finding a solution in her own time. And this is pretty cool. Sometimes even if you're in fix it mode as a guy, if you can if you can be that mirror, that loving mirror and reflect back to her and then she can, like, drop her shoulders and take that big sigh and just feel so much better afterwards, you let the dust settle for a little while and maybe later that evening, she's like, you know, what do you think I should do about Nancy? Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

By the way. And guess what? Then you then she's actually asking your permission

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

To get get some advice, get some insight. But the timing is so much better because you've got the order right. And you could even, I mean, maybe it feels a little bold, but if you reflectively listen well, at the end of that conversation, you could give her a big hug and be like, hey, if you ever wanna talk about this again, know me, I'm a fix it guy. So I've always got ideas, but I'm sure you're more than capable of figuring it out. But if you wanna talk more, I'm here.

Mark Odland:

You plant that seed and because she does hopefully respect you and your opinions, she may very well in a different context ask you for some advice about x y or z to quote unquote solve it. But again, in that moment, that's that's not typically not the fix it time.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. That's that's so perfect. And I I love the idea of choosing the time for what you're gonna do and getting getting permission from her to share your ideas. And a lot of times our wives are smart enough to figure it out on their own. Like they actually don't need us to figure it out for them.

Zack Carter:

And oftentimes, their solutions are way better than ours. Right? Sometimes we've got better solutions. Right? It just depends.

Zack Carter:

But that's around the time that they ask us. Right? Is if they have exhausted their thinking, but talking is thinking. You reflecting back allows her to get everything out of her head and to think out loud with you. And oftentimes, she'll solve the problem on her own, and you don't need to fix it.

Zack Carter:

So by not fixing it, you fix it.

Mark Odland:

Wow. That's that's that's profound, Zach. Talking. It's such a simple phrase, but like that that talking is thinking. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

I mean, I think that's so good for us as guys to hear because sometimes we think talking is venting, talking is gossiping, talking is we attach a negative connotation to talking about emotions. But if talking is thinking, if talking is processing, if talking is kind of the journey to get to the solution that we ultimately want, then maybe that's something to lean into a little bit. And, again, brush up on those skills, go into the right game plan. If you wanna feel better about it call it a battle plan, I mean, I don't know. That that maybe is against what we're trying to do here.

Mark Odland:

No winners and losers. Right?

Zack Carter:

That's right.

Mark Odland:

But I love that. Yeah. That's great.

Zack Carter:

Well, any any last thoughts, Mark, as as we start to wrap?

Mark Odland:

What would I guess, the final thought I'd have, Zach, is what what would you say to a guy who who said, okay. I'm doing the reflective listening thing. It seems like my wife feels better in the moment, but we never actually solve the problem. Like, we never, like we never agree on, like, how often to, to connect, something like that. Does it does it feel like it's an either or proposition?

Mark Odland:

Like, I'm just appeasing her in the moment, but we never actually solve it? Or do you feel like the it works together? Like, does that work?

Zack Carter:

Yeah. So typically is people this isn't always the case, but typically is people we don't like advice.

Zack Carter:

So how often are you taking your wife's advice? Almost never. Right? Maybe not. Maybe you're the guy you're the guy out there that takes his wife's advice a lot, which means you're probably smart.

Zack Carter:

But oftentimes, we don't want advice on our end. We wanna figure it out on our end. And so how do you figure something out? Open ended questions. Right?

Zack Carter:

And so what we're trained as as counselors and what you can practice in your daily life as well is basically kind of like the Oreo method. Right? Where you ask your wife a question. What was your day like today? Right?

Zack Carter:

You ask an open ended question, not did you have a good day? Right? That ends the conversation. She's a yes or no. Right?

Zack Carter:

Mhmm. But open ended question, tell me about your day today. Well, this jerk Nancy is being is gossiping about me. Wow, babe. That's tough.

Zack Carter:

That's so hard to have someone gossiping about you. What else happened? Right? Okay. So now we've done open ended question reflection.

Zack Carter:

So you're showing, hey. I'm listening. I care. And then you ask another open ended question. She keeps do she keeps talking.

Zack Carter:

Right? And so then you can ask her, what do you think you should do about this? Right? Have her solve the problem. What do you think you should do about this?

Zack Carter:

Right? And so if it's if it's an issue around just her, you have her solve it. And if she she either asks you, hey, do you do you want advice? Or you can ask her permission. Hey.

Zack Carter:

I did have a thought. Would you would you be open to a suggestion? And if she gives you permission, she's allowing you to start giving that advice. Right? Now if it's a problem around around sex, we talked about earlier, where she wants less frequency, you want more frequency, it would be something like you share how you're feeling.

Zack Carter:

Like we said, that slow start up. Hey. I've been disappointed, and I really wanna connect with you. And she then says, well, it's I'm I'm too busy. I'm just I would, but we're we're so busy.

Zack Carter:

And then you say, okay. Well, what can we do to take off some of that load? Right? So open ended questions, make them your best friend, and keep having the other person solve. And if they can't solve, then you can say, hey.

Zack Carter:

I have a thought. Would you mind if I make a suggestion? And that's kind of your your foot into the door Mhmm. To to start to give your input. Any thoughts on your end, Mark?

Mark Odland:

I love that, Zach. I mean, I think that that sense of respecting the autonomy of the other person and that they have the freedom to speak their mind, it things aren't too forced. Right? Because if any of us feels, like, controlled, it doesn't it doesn't go so well. Right?

Mark Odland:

And and I love the we language that that you are using. Like, how can we solve this problem? Because I think sometimes when people get stuck in a place of frustration or loneliness or disagreement about something like this, something like sex or intimacy, there can be this feeling of isolation where it feels like I have to solve this. Or or, man, why should I have to solve this? They should solve it.

Mark Odland:

And there could be this, like, inner unhelpful dialogue and and back and forth of emotions. And even saying the word we lights up something in our brains that says we're a team. Mhmm. And at the end of the day, that's what we want anyway. Right?

Mark Odland:

I mean, this is like the marriage covenant. This is like the till death do us part. You know, it's not just we promise never to divorce each other, but I'm not gonna really try in between, you know, between now and death. It's like, no. Like, it's we're not only are we we promising to to be faithful and love each other, but we're gonna work it.

Mark Odland:

Like, love is an action, not just a feeling. Right? And so I think those are powerful, powerful ideas that you're communicating, Zach, and just, like, so empowering for guys to know that, like, there's a tried and true method and process that they can try to implement on their own and maybe see some gains. And if it turns out because of, you know, tough patterns or things they can't control or maybe some of some things they need to work out within themselves that, you know, they could reach out for some extra help and and get someone to counsel or coach coach them.

Mark Odland:

You know? And I know we do that with a lot of guys, and we're happy to help if needed. And for some guys, it's a hybrid. It's like, man, I'm gonna I'm gonna go in and get a little extra support. But try to try to do this on my own as well and see see what happens.

Mark Odland:

See if I can see a shift a shift happen. But anyway, yeah, I mean I, really appreciate you sharing all that Zach. I think it's just so cool to see how your expertise in like the cognitive behavioral therapy and your insights from Gottman kind of dovetail together in this way that can be really helpful for probably all relationships, but in specifically with with couples like we're talking about today. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Mark. Yeah. And just as a reminder to everyone, as as we're kinda coming to a close, if if you've enjoyed this video, make sure you click on that subscribe button, that notification bell so that we can notify you for future videos.

Zack Carter:

If you're looking for help, if you need extra help, just reach out to us at escapethecagenow.com or in the link in description box. We would we would love to be able to help you if you're having problems with communication, if you're having problems in your marriage. That's the kind of stuff that we we help couples with.

Mark Odland:

Awesome. Thanks so much, Zach. Alright. Bye, everybody.

Zack Carter:

Thanks, everybody.