043 | How to navigate Global Travel Retail as a Brand Building Channel | Part2/2 with André De Almeida (Glasgow, Scotland)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 043 I continued the conversation with André de Almeida from Episode 042. In this part we digged into GTR, Global Travel Retail as a Bottom-up Channel.

André is a Drinks Industry Consultant and Founder of the "Inside the Cask" website. André has 20 years of experience having worked with Loch Lomond Group, William Grant & Sons, Edrington, and other drinks companies. He is also a Drinks Jury Member at Spirits Selection by Concours Mondial de Bruxelles.

Time Stamps

0:00 Intro

0:14 Global Travel Retail Logistics

7:55 Segmenting Airports

10:31 Local Airport Advantage

13:42 Airport Stakeholders

18:35 Staffing Airports

22:11 Identifying Your Consumer

34:42 Local vs. Standardized Airport Selection

41:07 Wrapping Up

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Andre De Almeida

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Andre De Almeida

Drinks Industry Consultant | Inside The Cask

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafiao in
episode 43.

I continue the conversation with
Andrea de Almeida from episode

42, so feel free to listen to
that as well.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
That that brings me to another

point, which is another like
part of your experience within

which you are, you know you are
a reference at least for me

which is which is the global
travel retail, not like the GTR

or however you know it's called
in the in PowerPoint

presentation because that is
another of those channels that

can play a nice role as part of
the bottom up trade.

You know, it's a bit of an
expensive one to play with

within, but it's also like
another element because there is

also like some of these aspects
that come into play.

You know it's a very nice from a
brand building perspective

there's people helping you
selecting if you want them to

help you is not really just a
supermarket floor kind of thing.

Now So what is let's say the
first element, let's, let's

bring people into this this
conversation.

You know it's it's a bit of a,
it's a big monster to deal with

now because I mean we we spoke
previously about you know the

the small independent, you know
there is an owner that maybe

have one shop or two or three
shops relatively easy to deal

with and then the travel retail
is more of a big monster.

Now one of those things that I
always say, you know, be careful

what you wish for in terms of
you know, investments, rules of

engagement, you know logistics
is a big chapter of your journey

in building brands bottom up
now.

So how tough is is it really?
It it can be very tough, special

if you don't know what you're
doing.

There can be some.
I've I've seen some people who

made some very expensive
mistakes.

So you do have to to be careful
about that.

The first question I always ask
anyone that I'm talking to about

duty free global travel retail
is why do you want to be in

global travel retail?
You know, make sure you

understand what's the motivation
behind that and also what's your

level of ambition in terms of
travel retail because people may

see the the brands that they see
out there, whether that's from

William Grant's or or whoever it
may be.

But they haven't seen all the
work that's taken over many

years to get them to the
position that they're in now.

And yes, it's a big category.
It plays a huge role from both a

sales on marketing perspective
in the case of these bigger

companies, obviously as I said,
they've spent a lot of time and

money building that presence
over many different locations

internationally.
So if you are new to the to the

landscape that's the first
question, why do you want to do

it and and what's your level of
ambition, you know and is it

local, is it regional, is it an
international overtime presence

that you're looking for?
There's a lot of things that you

need to understand because
airports and a lot of people

talk about airports because
that's the first thing that they

come across because that's what
they see when they're traveling

out there.
But the reality is travel,

retail, Dutchie Freeze
encompasses, you know, different

types of shops.
You know you're talking about

airlines, airports, Nordic
faddies which are all part of

this tier one if you like, but
equally includes diplomatic

stores, border shop, ship
Chandlers etcetera, which is

what we usually would classify
as a Tier 2.

And and the reason I I classify
and separate the tier one and

Tier 2 is because you're tier
one, your Air Force etcetera.

It's where potentially from a
brand perspective you want to be

part of, you want to be there.
But commercially can be very

challenging in terms of the cost
both from a margin perspective

as well as investment.
Whilst the Tier 2 brands

typically don't tend to focus as
much on on those areas, although

they are equally as important
and commercially they're not as

challenging as the tier one.
But by if you want to make your

P&L work in travel retail,
typically you need to look at

both and you need to look at
having a good mix of business

across both, both the Tier 1,
the Tier 2 side.

But, but what brings the
complexity as well is that every

type of shop, every, even if two
airports are never the same,

there's different rules and
different locations.

It can be very confusing more
for consumers as well As for

people trying to bring the
brands into the channel.

That's what makes it quite art
amongst there, as you say, and

what it makes it quite
complicated at times for people

that want to get into it.
Listening to you, there is an

element of you know brand
building aspect and there's an

element of let's say trial
driver and there's an element of

volume driver now.
So like listening to you like

the tier one is more of a brand
building showcasing the brand.

You know like this influential
like the world's fifty best kind

of focus from you know if we
bring it back to the entree you

know parallel while the the Tier
2 would be more of a OK volume

drivers.
It's the average bar where you

can actually drive volume with
your, you know, gene and Sonics

after work, You know, instead of
a mixology kind of experience,

right?
Yeah, although the analogy would

also apply even to airports to
be honest, because you're

Heathrow airport versus your
regional airport, it could be

the same analogy applied between
your top 50 bar and your local

bar, right.
So I think the the first thing

is to understand the landscape
and to understand what weight is

it that you want to to play
within travel retail.

And like I said they it can be
very different and the

challenges and costs and
opportunity very different

across the different types of
operations across whether it's a

tier one or a Tier 2 side of the
business.

So, so there's definitely a lot
to take into account and and you

you indefinitely.
You will need help of some sort

or throw yourself in and and
make the mistake along the way.

If you think of, you know, like
I mean big brands, it's a bit of

a given.
I mean like they're all there,

you know, with a bigger or
smaller presence depending on

the airport and and so on.
But what is you know?

How can how can small brands get
in into this game?

You.
Definitely need to be choiceful.

You need to be choosy and and
picky about where is it that you

want to go in and and be very
clear in terms of what's the

role that travel retail is
playing for you within your

overall business strategy.
You need to also make sure you

manage your expectations in
terms of growing, growing

stages, don't take more on than
than you can cope with because

again although there's plenty of
opportunities they are equally

the cost can be quite
challenging.

So I would certainly say take a
test and learn approach because

equally what works locally may
not work nationally, may not

work internationally, what works
in airports may not work in a

ferry, may not work in a border
shop.

So that's why the the whole test
and learn approach, it's

something that you need to to to
take into account.

The other thing is obviously
making sure you understand how

travel retail works.
The number one motivation for

consumers to purchase and travel
retail is gifting, whether you

are gifting to yourself or
gifting to others.

So that in itself may present
opportunities which you may not

have within your existing offer
at the moment.

So you may need to think about,
OK, what can I develop that

would work within travel retail.
All all of those you need to

take to account by effectively
you need to look at the at the

sales fundamentals.
You need to understand the

landscape.
You need to look at, you know,

price, promotion range,
merchandising, what does it look

like?
You know benchmarking yourself

against other players within
travel retail so that you can

understand where the opportunity
lies.

Going back to your previous
example when we were talking

about the 50 best bars, I think
that a common mistake that I see

brands do is that, you know,
like liking on trade, you know

they want to be in the 50 best
rather than the pub down the

street.
You know, the they do the same

mistake in in airports.
No, they're local and they want

to be in Chelsea, de Gaulle,
Paris, you know, Schiphol,

Amsterdam, London, Heathrow.
It's just like you want to play

football and you want to play
Chelsea or Manchester United the

first game you know.
So what would your advice be

focusing on?
Maybe like smaller airports or

you know like or or is there a
specific channel within the

channel like ferries are a lower
entry barrier than an airport or

like what?
What would you advise on?

Of course, depending on region.
Region by region, Yeah.

No.
Again, there's no simple answer

because again, it does vary
quite a lot.

Location by location, you're
talking about airports.

All airports are not the same.
So you need to understand what's

different between the different
airports in terms of

demographics for those
passengers, destinations,

carriers because you know
there's a difference between a

food service carrier versus low
cost carriers and how consumers

behave within those
environments.

So what's the reason for travel?
Is there a business traveler

that does frequently or is it
someone going on holiday once a

year, what's the time for that
travel?

So there's so many different
elements that you need to take

into account and again that in
itself can provide a, a

different opportunity once you
get under the skin a little bit,

all those airports in that case.
But what I like about some of

the, the smaller airports is
that, you know, a lot of times

there's less competition,
there's less focus there.

Allows you back to what I said
about the test and learn

approach, allows you sometimes
to test different mechanics to

to maybe go for consumers that
at a lower cost than it would if

you're trying to go into
Heathrow or if you're trying to

go into one of the bigger
Amsterdam or whatever, it may be

one of the bigger airport.
And and I think that's where it

can help you in your journey
within travel retail.

I would always say that you
should start local, because if

you're a brand and you have no
presence locally then I think it

will be difficult to justify you
being listed somewhere far-flung

from from where you're based
where you're from.

My first advice would be to look
locally, whether that's an

airport, airline or train or
ferry or whatever it may be, but

definitely start local.
This is a great point because I

actually wanted to ask you the
question because I'm a I'm a big

fan of, you know, winning the
home surf first because you need

to be relevant.
There is this friction because

in a way there is like no, no
one is a prophet in his own

land.
And then on the other end, if

you cannot convince your locals
to drink your brand, you know

how tough is that going to be,
you know, later on.

So then you are at the risk of
becoming a bit of a gimmick and

like a tourist, kind of like
bottle of limoncello.

You know it's flying back from
from Naples airport on a visit

on the Amalfi coast kind of
thing.

I I hear what you say that you
know it's important to focus on

the local, whatever that is, an
airport, an airline, a train or

anything that can play a huge
role in building that brand and

building that relevance.
When you want to go and

negotiate with someone bigger
that will ask you, are you in

that airport near your?
Hometown.

Yeah, no, exactly.
And I like you said, if you

can't show that, that you can't
make yourself relevant locally,

how can you show that you're
going to be relevant elsewhere?

You know, very difficult.
Plus people are always looking

for examples, you know, proof of
concept effectively.

OK, great that you've done a
great job domestically or

locally within domestic
business, but what does that

mean in travel retail, you know?
And then again if you're not in

your local whatever it may be
air for 30 whatever it may be

that you're targeting, it's
going to be very difficult to to

have that argument with the the
operator in in elsewhere.

So that's that's the challenge.
I think locally also means

making sure that people
understand what you're about,

what you stand for, what's your
value proposition, right,

because ultimately you're not
going to personally be selling

that on the in the shop floor.
So there's a lot of influence in

and education required both
internally and that's what I I

think sometimes people forget OK
it's fair enough if you're a

small business or and and it's
you and and a handful of people

but even if you're a medium
sized business I think sometimes

people forget that the education
is just as important externally

both to the the operator, the
third parties that you may be

working with to to have your
product there on shelf in a in a

travel retail environment.
But equally internally you know

from my experience whenever I've
worked with travel retail before

especially in businesses where
travel retail was new as a

concept to them because they
haven't really operated in our

environment before.
I've always spent a lot of time

internally educating whether
that was customer service and

supply chain logistics thing.
Paranal stakeholder because

you're asking potentially the
business to give you tools to to

show a certain amount of
flexibility that frankly they've

never been asked for before.
So helping them understand why

is it that they should be doing
this has great value.

And what you find is that most
sales people tend to be very

focused externally and they
forget about the internal.

Customer and that's that's a
fantastic point there.

Just to clarify for people that
are not familiar with the, the,

the travel retail and let's
call, let's talk about the

airport just for the sake of
simplicity, otherwise it's a bit

of a huge topic.
Who are the players that you

talk to, you know, in the
airport?

Because I mean there is a shop,
there is an airport.

Who are the stakeholders to talk
to when trying to enter?

You know, try to end up on a
shelf in a in a duty free shop

in an airport?
The environment is well,

obviously very different to a
domestic environment where if

you domestically, if you go to a
shop and you can't get in there,

then maybe another shop in
another block or down the street

that you may be able to
influence an airport.

It's a tender based business,
right.

There's not going to really be a
competition or it's going to be

very limited.
You have to undend therefore

understand who the operators are
within that industry.

A lot of them are global and
there's a lot, a lot of

consolidation happen over time,
whether that's people like do

free stroke ward, DiCaprio,
they've just changed their name

or Heineman or whoever it may
be.

You need to understand who those
operators are and there are some

great publications out there
online available for free,

Moody, David report, travel,
retail business, etcetera.

If you just Google that, you'll
be able to find a lot of that.

But what you have to remember is
that it's not just the head

office.
You also have to influence the

local team, the regional team,
the staff on the shop floor and

use them as a source for
insights as well before you even

consider approaching the head
office.

But equally you've got staffing
agencies because of the security

aspect of airports in you may
not aside to be able to go and

sell it yourself or you may not
be able to be on the shop floor

there.
Therefore you you have to use

staffing agencies and again
they're great as a source of

insight because obviously they
work with different brands.

They know what works, what
doesn't.

So again, that's another
relationship that's worth

interacting with before you
bring the products to market at

airports.
You know, if you're talking

about airports, then don't
forget the landlord, you know

the landlord in terms of the
airport, actual marketing and

commercial teams because they
are going to have their own

metrics, their own priorities,
especially if you're playing the

local card, that's always going
to be something that's going to

be important to them.
So understanding how you could

possibly work with them, what
opportunities that could be by

getting to know that that team
better to influence the

operator, the retailer equally
what's the logistics because

especially since the pandemic in
a similar way to what I've seen

in part of their own trade, a
lot of the operators don't

necessarily want new suppliers
plus you may not be willing to

provide the service level that
they are willing to give, right,

because some of these operators,
they may want two drops a week

with a minimum of one case.
Now it may be too expensive for

you to be able to do something
like that.

So it sometimes it's better to
use a rich market solution, a

logistics supplier that already
works with that operator with

our duty free retailer and again
getting to know them may also

provide other opportunities.
So these are just some of the

people that are involved in the
infrastructure around supplying

and therefore again listed in
the airport in travel retail.

Listening to you like that makes
me also think that there is an

element that all these players,
if you work well with them, they

can also enable different
conversations.

Now because maybe you know the
handler of a smaller airport is

also the handler in a bigger
airport and then maybe could

help you put the foot in the
door or vice versa.

If you are talking to the
operator of a smaller airport,

maybe the the contact of a
smaller airport is going to be

easier to reach and more
approachable in general because

you know he or she has to deny
much less phone calls than the

than the guys in Israel.
My experience of, for example,

Loch Lomond Group, when I worked
there, I helped set up the duty

free business from scratch and
that that was a big part of

that.
It was getting to know the local

teams, Glasgow and Edinburgh
airports, which are obviously

the the two main ones.
Not forgetting all the airports

in the area, but that we started
in Glasgow before we moved to to

Edinburgh and all the airports.
But it was getting to know that

the staff and agencies, getting
to know the the airport teams,

the the local operator teams,
you know the regional managers

that the people on their shop
floor etcetera.

Because again you're trying to
understand how does your brand,

your value proposition fit
within what they have and

ultimately an operator or
retailer like in any other

channel they are looking to grow
their business.

It's not about substitution, is
not about selling more of you

less of someone else for them,
right.

Their metrics are going to be
how do I grow the pie overall

and if you can fit into that
then you've got a good chance of

getting your product in and and
getting a supported.

You would mentioning also like
that the importance of you know

like because of security reason
and many other reasons like

this, No, no chance for you to
be in that store sporadically.

You can get in and get a permit
to to be the salesperson there

at the store.
But there are these staffing

agencies that you were
mentioned.

Also it's not the usual Rd.
You know like it's not like you

are hiring a brand ambassador
that can go from bar to bar.

You need to rely on external
people that have made the

selection for you.
What's the element of you

selecting those people and and
selecting the right fit for your

brand?
Because I'm assuming that there

is a more of A1 size fits all
kind of approach usually, so you

may want to add something more
tailored to you and and your

brand.
Yeah.

I mean that there's different
staffing agencies in different

locations around the world.
What I would always say is,

especially for the markets
closer to home for your local

markets is get to know the
people.

Because ultimately I I've always
been of an approach of pick the

people first rather than the
agency.

That's always been my approach
and the reason I knew the people

is because I frequented that the
airport enough that I got to

know the staff and and just like
you do when you go into a bar

and you talk to the staff and
you want to get a sense of the

place.
That's what I would do when I

was traveling through an
airport.

Whether I had a reason for or
not, I would be speaking to the

staff because.
Whenever you have those

interactions, you're picking up
some sort of insight, you're

picking some sort of
information.

So the creation, especially if
you're a smaller producer, the

creation of this virtual travel
retail team through a marketing

agency and installation agency
that understands the channels,

staffing agency that operates in
the channel and trying to make

sure that they understand your
brand.

B, if you're passionate about
it. 8th extremely important.

I mean, what I've always tried
to do is bring them to the home,

to the weather distilleries were
at least once a year and also

for them to meet others even if
they came from different

agencies because again to build
this, this team, they had to

feel like a team do you have to
bring them to the the home of

the brand.
So that's something I did in

different companies and I was
always a big supporter of doing

that kind of activity, even if
it may.

There's a risk of you losing
that person because they don't

work for you.
They're a third party agency,

whatever.
But I thought that was

important.
And even if they left, they

would be another brand advocate
for your brand.

So you may see the benefit
elsewhere anyway.

So that for me has always been
really, really important.

The people first, agency second,
if you can, If you can't, then

try to obviously get to know the
agency so that you know what

they stand for, how they
measure, how they communicate

back with you so they can manage
that as best as possible because

ultimately we're all trying to
influence the shopper journey.

The shopper journey as as you
said, is very different to

domestic because you know
consumers are looking at their

travel before they get there.
Then you've got the arrival at

the at the location, the check
in, the security and then

finally you're going for
departure And there's only at

that stage that you are likely
to be even considering going to

a store.
The biggest issue for travel

retail is actually penetration.
You've got this high food fall

potentially of travelers, but
the number of people that

actually go into a store and
make a purchase is actually very

small.
So, so trying to get that

attention and then trying to
convert that into a sale, it's a

real challenge.
One of the important aspects and

in what I'm listening from you
is that it's also like being

able to spot the right consumer
and the right person or in in

converting that demand because
despite I'm not a big fan of

target consumer as such, you
know more of a target occasion

in airport.
You know, even sometimes like

the way people are addressed
could play a role.

But also depending on are they
in a rush or not, when is their

flights, what type of brand
you've got?

Because if it's a more of a
geeky kind of brands, you know,

you may not want to have the the
businessman in a rush try to

convince that person or vice
versa.

You know, like there may be
different kind of people that

may shop just looking at
packaging and picking something.

Or you know, like there must be
a lot of training going on there

because what I'm what I'm
thinking is that it looks like

almost like an independent
store, but the person working

there, you know your promoter or
the the the the the salesperson

is actually not the, the owner
of that store.

So that there there is not that
element of curation and they

haven't selected that shelf, you
know, Yeah, I mean.

I like like you said time is the
main factor influencing or time

is really influencing consumers
in in in an airport or a travel

retail environment, right.
Because you're trying to

minimize that trace after
they've passed through security

and everything else so that they
can even consider the

possibility of of looking at at
the store and looking at your

product and potentially even
sampling it to maybe move to

purchase.
So time and stress definitely a

factor.
The type of traveller as you

said whether that's someone that
it's it's a precon traveller,

maybe a business traveller and
or or someone that's doing it as

A1A year kind of holiday trips
that is also relevant the person

on the shops for for sure.
A lot of those promoters are

going to be focused on certain
brands even if they look like

the work for the store
themselves they they are more

than likely promoting specific
brands.

But they know themselves and
I've and again I've spoken to

many of them that they also are
very conscious that they have to

offer good advice to the
consumer because the reality is

they may see that consumer again
traveling through the shop

again.
And if they've recommended the

product, if it doesn't fit with
what the consumer is looking

for, then they may not come and
ask for their advice again.

And OK, it may not be as
frequently as me visiting my

local store, independent whiskey
store or whatever it may be, but

they're still going to be a
relationship that you're

building there.
And again that consumer may be

driven by flavor brands that may
be different motivations for

that consumer in terms of Walt
Whiskey for example, they're

looking for.
But the advice of that person on

the shop floor who effectively
is your brand as far as they are

concerned, right, because they
are the ones that are talking

about your brand, they're
educating the consumer about

your brand.
They may be sampling the product

with you, with the consumer.
That's extremely important.

That's why I've I've said it
from the start, education is

critical and making sure that
they feel, feel, feel passionate

and understand what your brand
is about is is key as well.

Otherwise you're you're going to
struggle because if they can't

convey that, then you have no
chance of converting that

consumer into a sale.
And again, and you have to

remember that motivation can be
very different for the consumer.

Like I said, gifting is one of
the main reasons why people

purchase in travel retail.
And I still remember an example

of a consumer I spoke to in I
think it was Geneva.

I can't remember where I spoke
to her, introduced myself and

asked her why, you know, did she
drink whiskey?

I wish.
Why was she shopping there at

that category?
And she actually explained, no,

it's not for me, it's for my
husband.

Does he like the brand, which I
think it was Valmore that she

was looking at and he she didn't
know.

And then I asked her why is she
buying that in that case?

And it was because she liked the
packaging.

And obviously she basically said
and he better like it too

because obviously she's buying
as a gift for him.

So that you have to remember
also that the buyer is not

necessarily the shopper, is not
necessarily the drinkers.

So there's many different
reasons why people are in the

shop floor and potentially
looking to purchase a product

and travel retail.
What is often misunderstood

about the shopper to your
example is that sometimes like

they think OK, it's the in this
case the wife buying from the

husband but you assume that she
knows what the husband want but

she may not even know what the
husband wants and that there may

be different reason like that
she want to whatever impress him

or does she want to buy
something cheap you know like

and trying to recruit him into
something cheaper because you

may be buy but very expensive
things or maybe she looks for

something more like bang for for
box kind of thing or she may

want just like a present for
someone and it's like OK, this

is a this is a whiskey
connoisseur, what should I go

for?
And this is my price point

because I may not want to spend
100 lbs and may want to spend 60

lbs on that gift now.
So.

Exactly.
I think when we work in an

industry, we sometimes forget
that we work within a bubble.

And the reason why I go with
friends who don't work in the

industry to whiskey festivals is
because I want to see, I want to

experience it through their
eyes, you know, because they are

not someone that drink whiskey
all the time.

So I want to experience through
their eyes equally the analogy

here for travel retail that I
try to think of is what would it

be like if I went into the
beauty section, I know nothing

or very little about it and I
was trying to buy a gift for my

wife.
You know, I would be frankly

lost, which is where the
importance of signpost.

And given that those consumers,
they're the reassurance about

what they're buying as a quality
product and there's many

different ways to obviously be
able to provide that.

Clearly the staff on the shop
floor is going to be he.

Just as a bartender can have a
lot of influence and in in

influencing consumers to to buy
and try specific products

equally that person on the shop
floor will be able to do the

same.
If anyone listening to this is

keen to understand more on their
kind of retailer side metrics,

understanding the retailer side,
I would recommend a group called

the Travel Retail The Insider's
Guide by Kevin Brocklebank from

where one Red kite is really,
really excellent booked.

Someone I've worked with before,
Kevin and if you want like stock

for 10, if you like on travel
retail which will cost a lot

less than if you're taking me on
for a for a day, the book will

be a very affordable way to to
do that.

You are bringing me back to a a
part of my career that I forgot

about that when I was studying
in Rome, I was doing on

Saturdays.
I was a promoter for Nokia and

we're talking like 20 years ago.
So I I mean it was we're talking

like the 30th, the 3310 Nokia
phone that I was pushing and I

remember like especially in one
store on a Saturday was like

Christmas time and I must have
sold something between 40 and 50

phones on an afternoon, on a
Saturday afternoon.

And I remember like all this
conversation and and back to the

target consumer point now that I
I sold it to young kids with

their mom or dad, old ladies,
people buying for the grandson,

people buy from the grandma, you
know, like totally different

kind of consumers.
And I remember this particular

afternoon that, you know, the
the shop owner was looking at me

like a like a movie star, you
know, like like please come and

work for me kind of thing.
And I I remember having this

really ugly Nokia T-shirt with
long sleeves like it was a blue

with green sleeves with a
Nokia's logo on the arm, really

ugly.
And but I was there and very

often I I used to either recruit
people or put people off, you

know, depending on what they
wanted.

Because I was, I was asking them
the question and say like, do

you want something that is
simple to use or is that, you

know, sometimes I was convincing
the the person and then I was

asking the question.
I was like, but what did they

ask you to buy?
You know, did they ask you to

choose something or do they want
exactly that Motorola back then

or Ericsson back then?
Based on the answer, Then I was

driving them and I said, look
like this would be much better

for you in my opinion.
But if your son or your brother

or your aunt or uncle asked you
specifically that Ericsson

phone, you know, make a phone
call, I'll wait here, you know,

and ask them if it's fine for
you to swap that purchase

because you know, what do they
want?

So to to your point, they're
like it did.

The biggest added value for me
was that I was a Nogia user back

then, after not just started to
go down because they failed on

my promise that used to be
actually one.

One of the reason why I moved to
Finland at some point was

probably even for, you know,
going to work for Nogia because

that was my dream.
I didn't have any training.

I remember that that agency that
I work with never gave me any

training, but I was a star
because I was a user, so I knew

exactly what to do.
I knew what to click.

They didn't know how to remove
the SIM card, to put the SIM

card in, how to change the
battery.

I was doing it in in 5 seconds,
like ta ta, ta and I was doing

it for the old lady.
And anyway, imagine like a

Saturday afternoon during
Christmas time, the stories

packed and so on.
But to to your previous point

about experience, about
trainings, about picking someone

that knows what they're talking
about and they can divert

people.
Because for three people that I

didn't sell it to because they
wanted to sell it, but I didn't

sell it, then either they came
back and sold it, you know, and

they bought it, or I recruited 5
more people that didn't want to

buy it and then I pushed them to
buy it because it was the right

thing for them.
Yeah, always go back to the

consumer.
You want people to go back to

your brand and you don't want to
fool them.

Because that short sighted
Because that is, it may drive

you a quick sale, but then
equally sometimes wait, what I

find is the people that take
that approach, if you follow the

consumer they've spoken with a
lot of times you see the

consumer actually dropping the
bottle before they even get to

the cash point to the place to
pay because they weren't fully

bought into that or they buy it.
But then there's a degree of

frustration because maybe what
they were promised was didn't

deliver, right.
So if they were to travel

through that store again,
they're not going to trust that

individual that to to deliver a
piece of advice that they can

follow people.
They are really good at their

job on the shop floor, in air
Forks in the UK and beyond.

That's because they they
understand the motivation, what

the consumer is looking for,
even if that consumer is not

buying for themselves.
Maybe they are just the shop

that as I said, but equally they
can deliver against that or as

close to as possible so that the
experience is a +1 overall.

And I mean personally again it
reminds me of a of a time with a

previous company where I had
asked the agency.

So in this case, it was in
Russia, it was Saint Petersburg,

and I obviously wasn't close to
the market, so I couldn't pick

pick the the person myself.
So I bought the agency, pick

that, the staff member.
And they went for what they

thought I might have wanted.
And I remember when I traveled

to that airport in Saint
Petersburg and I knew who the

person was, but she didn't know
who I was.

And they picked this beautiful
looking Russian girl.

And yeah, great from Luke's
perspective, but ultimately

that's not what I was looking
for.

You know, I was looking for
someone and I could see another

staff member from this agency
was engaging who knew about the

category, who was really driving
sales and with their consumers.

And I saw this in a very short
space of time of visiting that

store.
Needless to say, after I

finished that that that visit, I
went back and asked for that

person because he was the kind
of person that I wanted someone

that could engage, that could
educate, that could ultimately

help to get to a sale, but
making sure that it it's feted

with the motivation what that
consumer was looking for.

This is a great point and as
well one last question because

we touched upon it, but we
didn't really close it all.

All the shelves look the same.
We discussed it about small

brands versus big brands in
these stores, all the shop, all

the, you know all the shelves
look the same.

Now they always have the same
kind of big brands wherever you

go.
You know there is this kind of

like globalization of that.
So when talking about the small

brands entering you know stores
and so on, how do you see like

is it changing with operators
and shops and you know like in

the in actually having a more
local choice and delivering that

versus the usual big names that
you may think of in in whiskey?

Yeah.
I think in travel retail,

there's definitely a huge
importance place on sense of

place, right, Because as a
consumer, when you travel a lot

of times, if you go to Rome,
you're maybe looking to bring

something back from from that
experience with you to to the UK

or to whatever you're going back
home to.

And that applies here as well.
So at a local level, we get a

local product.
There's definitely a lot of

leverage there that you can
utilize as I said earlier, not

just with the operator but also
within the operator teams, the

regional managers, the local
team, the airport teams etcetera

to try to get the opportunity to
get that listing.

So you will have a mix of your
top sellers and some of the the

local brands depend on the
operator that that you're trying

to work with the the fear and
the the issue I've always risen

in travel retail is that
typically they tend to be a

little bit more conservative
when it comes to new trends.

And my body is always to have
the shopping mall syndrome where

every shop looks the same as you
said.

And and the challenge is if
you're trying to increase

penetration, increase the number
of people that go into the store

and convert to a sales, then
clearly that's not going to

motivate travelers to
necessarily go into the store.

So for me it's always been about
how can you create a mix of

products which includes your top
sellers, your international

brands, includes your local
brands, your local offering,

your sense of place, but then
also includes innovation, new

new products, products that
potentially touch on trends that

may come from domestic whether
that's their own trade or or

whatever it may be.
So you know trying to have a a

better mix of products available
within the store and that's why

you as a creator of whiskey's or
whatever it may be, you need to

think about what's the role that
you play or you may play within

that category because ultimately
you need to think about what's

going to be your your selling to
that operator, what's going to

be the story, why should they
take you and potentially take

someone else out of that shelf
Because again it's not like an

online business that they can
just add another SKU online

right there, there's no elastic
shelves.

So how are they going to be able
to take another product

especially when the cost for
that location is quite high

given the fact that they have to
obviously share a big part of

that revenue back with the
landlord with the with the

airport airports in that case.
So that's all something that you

need to, you need to to think
about what's the role that your

products going to play within
that that range.

But certainly to any operator
out there, I'm always trying to

push the idea of don't go for
the shopping mall approach

because personally there's
nothing more disheartening as a

consumer when you travel and
everything looks the same that

you would get everywhere else.
The other thing that you also

need to take into account is
once you have that opportunity

because just like in a in a shop
or a bar or whatever it may be,

you can't just think about
getting the listing.

You need to think about what you
got to do to make that rotate to

make that sale.
Because otherwise it's going to

be a very short lived
experience.

And that goes back to what I was
saying earlier about

understanding the the landscape,
looking at the sales

fundamentals, looking at
formats, looking at you know if

you're going to do a promotion
for example or some some sort of

promotional mechanic.
How can you attract the the

interest of the consumer,
maintain that attention, try to

create some sort of emotional
reaction desire before you get

them to take an action to to
convert back to a sale.

And again most new brands in
travel retail, they may not

understand to get the
opportunity straight away to to

have a promotion in store
because of the core than

everything else relating to it.
But there's other things that

you can do.
For example, one of the things

I've always been a big advocate
before has been how can you

touch on the kind of gifting
element because that's such an

important driver for the
consumer.

So the the small packs, you
know, the kind of three, three

by five scale packs, for
example.

I've always been a big advocate
for them because in my mind the

way I look at them is they are
paid for trial, they're paid for

liquid to lips even if I make
less margin on those products.

And I'm quite happy to do that
because effectively our

consumers paying to trial a
range of my products which

hopefully they will then buy
either in domestic or in a

travel retail shop.
On the promotion side, one of

the one of the best examples I
see of our promotional

activation based on what I said
about attracts annotation,

creating desired etcetera was
Hendricks and again simplicity

sometimes is key, right.
And Hendricks was always very

clear in terms what they were
and what they were not.

And I remember an activation we
did in Hamburg Airport, I think

it was in Germany, where we had
someone dressed up in a lab coat

and we had this clear helmet
almost.

The idea was that a consumer
would put their head inside this

clear Perspex helmet sort of
thing, and then they would be

able to experience gin and tonic
or Hendrick and tonic in a vapor

format.
So an unusual way of experience,

Hendrick and Tonic.
Now to an extent you could argue

and maybe a little bit of a
gimmick, but it certainly was

unusual.
It certainly drew interest and

as you put the consumer through
that experience, obviously

people saw that.
So that attracted the things

from which Ben then brought more
people on to you.

And as you engage with them, he
gave you the opportunity to a

tell them a little bit more
about the brand and what it

stood for.
But then equally get them to

sample the product and and as
I've always said, liquid to

ellipses paramount and that
inevitably helped us to drive

sales.
Absolutely, absolutely.

So that's fantastic.
So that's a nice way to wrap it

up.
It was a, it was a fantastic

conversation.
We touched on many different

things and so tell us how.
How can people find you and how

can they reach out to you on all
the different elements of your

knowledge and support?
I mean, the easiest way for

people to find me is through my
website insidethecask.com.

It's something that I started a
few years back as a way to share

information that I was
interested in back with others.

I also post jobs there.
In the drinks industry I tried

to post about 100 jobs a month,
typically tends to be higher

than that.
And again, that's just as a way

to to help others either change
jobs or come into the industry

that we love so much.
So it's really a service.

If you like that I try to to
give back, but through the

website you can also contact me
if you're looking to work with

me on a project or on a
consultancy basis, whether

that's to do with travel, retail
or domestic.

I've I've been working as a
consultant now for a for a few

years and I just love the
diversity of projects that I've

been able to get involved with.
And a lot of that is obviously

drawing on the experience that
I've had over the years both in

the UK internationally and
across off trade, on trade

prestige and travel retail.
Fantastic.

So thanks.
Thanks a lot Andre and speak

soon.
It was a pleasure to have you.

No, no.
Thank you very much for having

me, Chris.
Really appreciated it.

Ciao.
Ciao.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 42 and 43.
If you enjoyed it, please rate

it, comment and share it with
friends, and come back next week

for more insights about building
brands from The Bottom U.