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Moving from Fear, to Joy of Missing Out and beyond both.
FOMO arises from projection and fantasy, as does a lot of the imagined enjoyment of the imagined pleasures.
We might imagine that:
- everything we want is outside ourselves
- pleasure, meaning or peak experiences must be mediated by something: people, substances, or outside events
- that we have to follow a formula to achieve them
We chew over the classic cliche FOMO of music festivals, and unearth some insights:
- the positives of turning towards your own priorities
- pursuing projects and personal growth brings the greater contentment
- 'projects over pleasures'
- the pursuit of meaningful experiences on your own terms or with people you care about
- sometimes the best music experience is going mental to a good tune where no-one can see
Joe contends that beyond FOMO and JOMO is the flow state:
- the real peak experiences of life often occur in the flow state
- which has little to do with glamorous activities or what we have been told to want
We touch on existentialism and some key FOMO psychology:
- humans struggle to reliably imagine their own future feelings
- to weigh the influence and impact of imagined events
- we struggle to accurately assess what others put on social media, obviously
- but this is also discomfort with our own choices
- we all carry the burden of choice, of what to value and pursue
- the existential problem of assigning meaning
- it's not easy figuring out what we really want
- it's difficult to imagine what will actually make us happy or bring contentment, and in a sense it's our life's work
- the choice to engage in fulfilling projects is seemingly more difficult and uncertain than reaching for known pleasures
- the boring thing is doing what we think we will be fun and assigning it a greater future value than it can carry
- the real boredom is not always in staying home and attending to our real priorities
We harangue Joe to turn towards something he gets a lot of meaning from, passages from spiritual books, and reflect on those in a new podcast series, which leads nicely to some useful concluding thoughts
- the value of following quiet passions
- the liberation found in chosen solitude
- encouragement to make conscious life choices aligning with true desires
Episode image courtesy of Craig. Check out his new blog, it's grouse https://wish-art.blog/
- (00:00) - TTTT fomo jomo
- (00:14) - Welcome and topic
- (00:33) - Personal Stories of FOMO and JOMO
- (03:20) - The Cultural Phenomenon of Music Festivals
- (05:58) - Sobriety and Its Impact on Social Life
- (07:49) - The Shift from FOMO to JOMO in Adulthood
- (07:59) - Reality, Music Festivals, It's a Business
- (08:30) - Interviews with musicians
- (19:28) - Finding Joy in Simplicity and Creativity
- (24:42) - The Real FOMO: Missing Out on Personal Passions
- (29:48) - Embracing JOMO in Everyday Life
- (31:51) - Rediscovering Simple Pleasures
- (32:13) - The Pivot: From Boredom to Texture of Experience
- (32:30) - Mediated Experiences vs. Reality
- (33:14) - Body Acceptance and the Illusion of Projected Happiness
- (34:02) - Music Festivals and the Pursuit of Authentic Joy
- (34:52) - The Path of Personal Growth
- (36:19) - Embracing Individuality and Comfort
- (48:41) - Finding Meaning in Quiet Contemplation
- (51:01) - Projects over pleasures - the origin of Joe's new podcast
- (53:43) - Joe's new diet - and more origin for the new project
- (58:53) - Balancing JOMO and FOMO
- (01:01:17) - Concluding Thoughts on Personal Fulfillment
0:00 TTTT fomo jomo
00:14 Welcome and topic
00:33 Personal Stories of FOMO and JOMO
03:20 The Cultural Phenomenon of Music Festivals
05:58 Sobriety and Its Impact on Social Life
07:49 The Shift from FOMO to JOMO in Adulthood
07:59 Reality, Music Festivals, It's a Business
08:30 Interviews with musicians
19:28 Finding Joy in Simplicity and Creativity
24:42 The Real FOMO: Missing Out on Personal Passions
29:48 Embracing JOMO in Everyday Life
31:51 Rediscovering Simple Pleasures
32:13 The Pivot: From Boredom to Texture of Experience
32:30 Mediated Experiences vs. Reality
33:14 Body Acceptance and the Illusion of Projected Happiness
34:02 Music Festivals and the Pursuit of Authentic Joy
34:52 The Path of Personal Growth
36:19 Embracing Individuality and Comfort
48:41 Finding Meaning in Quiet Contemplation
51:01 Projects over pleasures - the origin of Joe's new podcast
53:43 Joe's new diet - and more origin for the new project
58:53 Balancing JOMO and FOMO
01:01:17 Concluding Thoughts on Personal Fulfillment
Creators & Guests
Host
What is The Ten Thousand Things?
Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.
Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)
Sam: Hello and welcome to The 10,
000 Things, my name is Sam Ellis.
Joe: I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, FOMO and jomo.
Uh, I was recently introduced
to the concept of jomo, which
is Joy of Missing Out fomo.
Most people are familiar
with fear of missing out.
Mm.
yeah, I've had a lot of experience
with both in the last, particularly
the last eight years, since
giving up drugs and alcohol.
Mm.
but I, it's a pretty broad topic.
Um, and I wanted to get
you guys to jump in.
Jomo, made sense to me instantly and I was
like, Oh, I haven't lent into this enough.
But like my experience, like say when
the seasons come and go and it's like
music festival season and big bands come
to Melbourne and all the things that
go on in summer, like we've just had.
Sam: Well, you saw the
biggest band of all time.
So twice.
So don't.
Joe: Oh, Taylor Swift.
But I, I experienced a lot of
Jomo of like, oh, thank God.
I'm not at that music festival.
Sam: Imagine if I gave two
shits about any of that.
Just imagine.
Joe: No, but I always did.
I always had a lot of FOMO that
I had to be at the cool thing.
Oh, no, no.
I used to care a lot.
Ali: Yeah.
That was such a huge theme of my
Like late teens, early twenties,
like whether it was missing out on
experiences, like, you know, sexual
experiences, romantic experiences,
then there was also, yeah, the, for a
variety of reasons, not being able to
travel when everyone was traveling.
That was a huge one for me.
Like, yeah, being able
to go out and do stuff.
And then when I had, cause I had
my son quite young, then there
was a bit of FOMO with that.
Like, you know, in my early
twenties, I was taking care
of, you know, a little baby.
Sam: And so not being a
nuclear family and yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
So there was all sorts of.
Yeah, like a lot of FOMO and, and it was
sort of coincided too with like, Facebook
and MySpace and all that and social media
and people you were so aware now of all
these people in your extended circle doing
all these things, which we historically
never really had unless you ran into them
and you're out, you didn't know that they
were the girl you went to school with was
on a European extravaganza and all of a
sudden you see all these photos and I saw.
Okay.
I had, there was quite a lot of that
fear of missing out, but I would say
very much since the pandemic, I have
really lent into the joy of missing out.
And I think, yeah, also coinciding with
my little mentee bee and all that a few
years ago, like actually recognizing
that there are so many things that I take
pleasure in that don't involve actually
going out and doing stuff and just
enjoying those moments and simultaneously,
yeah, not wanting to be a part of things
that I've historically seen and thought,
Oh God, I'm missing out because over
the years I have had the opportunity
then to do this or that and then, you
know, it's really actually not for me.
Sam: It's not like you've never done it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you have done some travel and.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: But like.
And had
Ali: those romantic experiences
and things that I thought I'd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I.
I don't feel like I'm missing out.
I mean, yeah, if I had more
money, I'd want to travel, but
I think that's everybody, right?
Sam: earlier I was trying to think of
an example that wasn't music festivals,
cause that is like the, that was a
huge, that is like the classic, in
psychoanalysis, in LACAN or something,
you'd call it like object A or whatever,
like music festivals are like, well,
in old fashioned Freud, it's like a
fetish, you know, it's like when you
ask someone what's something you've
been afraid of missing out on, they're
probably going to name music festivals.
It's almost cultural
programming at this point.
Yeah.
Like.
If you're a certain age, that's the
pinnacle of human experience right there.
Ali: Yeah, and you know what I realized?
I don't really like music festivals.
I don't want to stand all day.
I want a seat.
I want to, I don't want to be in the sun.
Like there's a whole bunch of stuff.
Sam: They always got up my ass.
Ali: Yeah, like they,
you know, and then gross.
Sam: Even as a youngster.
Ali: What's it called?
The toilets, like the portaloos.
Revolting!
Like, there's so many things about
a music festival that I'm like, ugh.
Sam: I kind of like the
disgusting toilet experience.
It was one of the few things about
festivals that actually felt real to me.
You're an idiot.
Ali: So, like, I've
recently bought a ticket.
To see what is a music
festival for old people.
But like, I haven't been to a
festival in many, many, many years.
And, but yeah, part of me is just
because I weren't doing any sideshows
and I really wanted to see Blondie.
So that's why I bought the
ticket for the festival.
But if it was,
Joe: Yeah, she won't be past her prime.
Ali: But just,
Sam: but just, but just doing,
but just doing the sideshow is.
Actually, it's only the true fans there.
Ali: Yeah, and like, and I get a seat,
which is like a huge thing for me.
Joe: But if you want to talk about
social media, you won't get a more
FOMO y experience than like, Here's me
in my amazing outfit with all my best
friends, and we're a special group.
special group of people that all go
to this festival together every year.
And we took so many drugs and we
understood the nature of reality
and consciousness and the universe.
And we all became one
and you weren't there.
Like that's
every Instagram photo
from a music festival.
Sam: I wasn't feeling it, but
then towards the end of that, I'm
like, okay, I am feeling it now.
You're right.
Joe: So my journey with
music festivals was.
From peak experiences on acid at bushdoofs
in my early 20s, or, you know, at, maybe
at the big day out watching the Chemical
Brothers or whatever, on MDMA or whatever,
like there was all those peak experiences.
By the end it was like, on the road, on
the way to Meredith, dropping Valium,
drinking so much, and like, drunk by the
time I got to Meredith, and sedated, and
then like, oh, take some speed, and then
like, Fucking eating a burger before
midnight and going to bed and really
getting this reputation as the guy who
went to bed early at the music festival.
Why?
Because I was an alcoholic and
I was, I was taking drugs, but
I was drinking so much that it
was just counteracting the drugs.
So once substance use for fun and
peak experiences turned into substance
use for just getting through life
or dependence, then music festivals
just became something that became
between me and my drinking, really.
Totally.
Sam: Cueing up for a can,
it's just, it's a bummer.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Joe: Like, you know, you can smoke a big
joint and watch Midlake play Roscoe and it
was, that was a bit of a peak experience,
but they became fewer and far between,
you know, and, and then getting sober,
it's like, the last place I want to be is
the Meredith Supernatural Amphitheatre.
As a sober, clean and sober person.
You
Sam: don't see me at the concert, baby.
Those bright lights hurt my eyes.
Cigarettes and alcohol get up my ass.
I always lose you in the crowd.
Joe: All right.
I wasn't there.
Sam: Come on.
It was the second, the second album.
Ali: Yeah.
But like now is like a 40 year old woman.
The idea of listening to my
favorite artist on the couch.
I'd rather dance.
Sam: In ugly pants in the comfort
of a lounge room in suburbia.
Ali: Yeah, with the cat on my lap.
Sam: Mm hmm.
Ali: Quan
Sam: had already worked it
out when you wrote that lyric.
Ali: Yeah, like whether I, yeah, have a
cocktail or I just have a cup of tea or
whatever it is, I'm at home, I'm comfy.
Peak experience right there.
I, there's so much joy to be had in that.
I Yeah, that's right.
Joe: That's Jomo
Ali: that was me yesterday I
had a whole day and evening
of jomo and it was fantastic
Sam: I agree that is jomo but Joe I'm
gonna flip the script on you and blow
your mind man, if Ali went that is
jomo right there, but i'm gonna flip
the script and blow your mind man.
If Ali went out, she'd have missed
out on what happened at home.
It's all about how you look at it, man.
So
Joe: this is going to be an
episode where we explain how
awesome it is that we're boring.
Is that right?
Sam: No, it's about finding
where the real entertainment is.
That's the answer.
You know, my wife helped me with this a
lot because she has spent a lot of time
at music festivals and, by and large,
Because she works in the industry.
Yes, and it's not fun anymore.
Yeah.
It's just work.
Yeah.
It is just another industry.
And you start to recognize that
experiences are being manufactured.
It's a product, et cetera.
And that's actually not a scandal.
That's just business.
It's how it's done.
And after a while, first the
illusion falls away and then.
You know, there might be a little
bit of a sense of disappointment
or, oh man, it's manufactured
and on the fifth time you hear the band
say the same line in an interview and
like, that's heartbreaking when you're
21, but when you're 45, it's like, well,
yeah, what else are they going to say?
You've got to do a lot of interviews.
It's, you know, it just, there's that
great old saying, like, um, you know, was
it the young, the young person finds the
injustice of the world outrageous and the
middle aged person finds it scandalous
and the old person finds it amusing.
And yeah, an event that's like, it's
just coming to terms with reality.
And like, so.
Joe: Do you want to hear my
impression of every, uh, interview
with a band on Community Road Radio?
I'd love that.
It's really, it's really brief.
Yeah.
So tell us, how did the
new album come about?
Well, it was a really organic process.
We just got in the studio
and yeah, that's it.
That's every single
interview with a musician.
It's like, don't get these people to talk.
They're musicians.
Just get in and play
music, or play their music.
Also, don't
Sam: ask them about their music.
Ask them about other people's music.
You will get a much
more interesting answer.
Joe: It's like the football of the
footballer They say, wow that was amazing
out there, you had 40 possessions and
you kicked 5 goals and you were easily
the best player on the field and they
always say, ah it was a team effort,
all the boys chipped in today, a great
effort by the boys and a team effort.
You've got to say that.
You've got to say it.
You have to.
Well, in Australia, you do.
Yeah.
In America, you can say, yeah,
I'm the fucking greatest and I'm
going to go to the new heights.
Yeah.
Thank God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm going to go.
There's no telling how good I can be.
You know, exactly.
That's the American way.
But the Australian way is it's
always, no matter how much better
you are than everyone else.
And I watch a lot of football.
Some guys are just so much
better than everyone else.
Yeah.
Always say there's no
Michael Jordan of AFL.
Cause then when they don't
say that it is somehow worse.
And it's the same with the band.
If a band doesn't say it was an organic
process and we just got in the studio
and then the songs just came about.
If they say, well, actually
this one's about my family.
friend from, uh, Malambimbi.
I
Sam: really want them, I really want
them to say, it was actually quite
a contrived process that, you know,
there wasn't, it wasn't very natural.
cause to tell you the truth, like
I've, I've spent, I've actually
spent quite a few hours in recording
studios and, you know, I've actually
produced a fair amount of recorded
music, which is, you know, it's not.
Out there for the most part to find,
so don't bother looking, but, there are
times when it's organic, and then there
are times when it is just a grind, it's
just work, and you're just getting it
done, and there's a process, and you're
following it, and I, I like the honest
interviews, they're more interesting, and,
um, Yes, believe me, this does relate to
the FOMO JOMO, like it's so much easier
to accept what's not happening or what
could be happening or what you think.
Basically, if you're living in
reality as much as possible, you're
not troubled by these things as much.
And then that gets so much
easier the older you are.
Um, and although as you do age, you
start to worry about other things you
might be missing out on such as time with
your children or, you know, cause when
you were having a bender at Splendour,
you weren't doing something else.
That might have actually
been more nourishing for you.
And the one time I went to Splendour,
I felt the same way I felt today.
When I finally went to Big Day Out, I'd,
I'd clearly arrived too late, like, in
terms of the age of the festivals, like,
this thing is clearly past its prime,
see through it almost immediately,
and go, alright, well, let's do our
best to extract, you know, something
Joe: here, but Do you mean as opposed
to taking the same drugs in forest,
or as opposed to taking the same
drugs in your home with your friends.
Yeah, exactly.
And then the most, yeah, I had an
interesting experience in Jomo recently
where a guy I work with went to a dance
music festival and my housemate actually.
And it was going to be 43
degrees each day for five days.
And they still went.
Yeah.
And I was like, like, I don't take drugs
anymore, but I was like, That's crazy.
Yeah.
Ali: I could not think of anything worse.
It's my personal hell.
Sam: Don't do it.
Like, you see Burning Man,
, trudging on foot out of there?
Joe: The best.
Yeah.
But like, you've already
got your drug stash, right?
You've already organized that.
It's going to be 43 degrees.
You've got air conditioning, get your
drugs, get your friends, sit in the
air, put on some fucking Citrans.
If you want, hire a little strobe and
a little fucking smoke machine and
you'll have a much better five days,
you know, and you can Uber Eats and
you can, you know, or go to the Plenty
Sam: Gorge or the Botanical Gardens
Joe: or something.
So, but like, so that would have been
a, A FOMO turning into a JOMO, like
those people could have JOMO'd that
Ali: just middle age though?
Is it a little bit that just like
you start to prioritize your comfort?
Because the things we used to
tolerate when we were younger
was, I would say, yeah, we're far
more flexible with those things.
Whereas now, you know, you're like
now, Now we have back problems, or you
don't sleep right, and you want your
own pillow, and you want the You talk a
Joe: big Jomo game, though.
This is what I find as your friend,
is you talk a big Jomo game.
You're like, I'm fine, I'm just gonna
be here with my cat, and be a cat
lady, and I think last night you said
to me, I can just listen to music.
Nothing else, just listen to music for
hours on end, and people think, what are
you doing, Ali, and I'm just listening,
I'm not even looking at my phone, I'm
just listening to music, that's all
I'm doing, and I'm like, yeah righto,
and then you're out dating some fucking
random who's treating you badly, and it's
like, why did you stay in your couch?
You had so much jomo, why did
you ever leave your couch?
I gotta shake it up occasionally.
No, do shake it up, because
you're not actually completely
resolved to be a cat lady, right?
No, no, it's just,
Ali: That's a little bit
unfair, but I'll tell you
Joe: another FOMO is, we don't
have to be everything all the time.
Married guys have FOMO about dating
apps because they've been married from
before dating apps were around and they
come up to me and I see this little
look in their eye and they're like,
Ali: Oh, they want to see who you are.
Joe: What's it like?
Ali: What's it like?
And I'm like,
Joe: It's a hellscape, you really
haven't missed anything, like, it's so
hard to find a genuine connection, and
they're like, show me the photos, let
me have a swipe, and then there's this
Sam: far off look in their eyes!
Man, my heart goes out to those
blokes, but I just Don't feel that way.
Like I just, cause I'm
just, you know, you've
Joe: never been on a dating app obviously.
Sam: Okay.
Well recently my wife missed
out on Taylor Swift, right?
Not this last two or the one before.
And no, I've never been on a
dating app and neither has she.
she's had a glance at a friend's dating
app and came away very much with the
impression of, okay, I think I'm good.
And I don't think that speaks
about me and her admiration for me.
No, I think it's more
just like, I think she is.
As she said to me about the
Taylor Swift concert, I said,
are you alright about this?
And she goes, absolutely.
I can imagine how I'd feel.
I know exactly how I'd
feel, standing there.
I don't need it.
And I'm like, I believe you.
I thought you were the
Joe: one with autism.
Oh,
Sam: that's just between you and me.
Joe: I know exactly how I would feel.
And now I am imagining that and
feeling that here and I'm fine.
And there's some other,
Sam: there's some other little clues.
It's not entirely my fault that
my kids are the way they are.
Joe: Anyway.
Yeah.
There was a lot of, I mean, I was
working with younger women who I had
my Taylor Swift tickets, but they.
I had one woman's house, but this was a,
I loved this as a FOMO, in your face FOMO.
Yeah.
Her housemate had got tickets to
three nights in a row at Melbourne
and wouldn't give her one of them.
She just went on her own
three nights in a row.
And this person was a massive swifty,
she wouldn't give her one of the tickets.
So she had a bit of
Sam: FOMO, sitting at home, not going.
I could really, my heart goes
out to those people, honestly.
You know, well, like when, when I went
to see Alanis Morissette and that was
actually a peak experience and that
Ali: was so much fun to
Sam: this day, it's going
to be hard to top it.
It really will be.
And it was so much fun.
It was such a good
Ali: concert.
I was 13.
I'd got the tickets for my 13th
birthday and I had my Doc Martin
boots and just, it was just such a.
It was a very profound experience
for me as a young person seeing her.
It was, it was, it was really cool.
Mm-Hmm,
Sam: It was for me too.
And I was a jaded 19-year-old at the time.
18 maybe.
And I was like, no, these rules.
Mm.
I was there with about four, yeah,
about four or five girls and me and
I think, was there another dude?
I can't remember.
I don't think so.
And like ostensibly, I was there as like
a, to keep an eye on them, on behalf of.
you know, a couple of their mums
and stuff and they were like,
we, we don't want to go along.
We don't want to like crowd
the vibe and I'm like, okay.
But I was a fan too.
And like, I knew every word
and I was like, this rules.
And yeah.
I just know that not, I can't,
I'm not gonna be able to go to
the tennis center and anything's
ever gonna hit the same way again.
So why worry about it?
Like,
Joe: yeah.
Yeah.
I mean that's, I guess that's why,
see, I have another friend who goes
to gigs all the time and, you know, I
got sober a certain way using the 12
steps and whatever, and then he just a
few years later just stopped drinking.
Without the process.
Without the process.
Sam: No, you've been doing it internally.
Joe: Who knows, but like I
Sam: guarantee
Joe: it.
I've been around sobriety long
enough to know that some people
just stop drinking and they don't
need any spiritual assistance.
What I'm saying is there's
always a process happening
Sam: inside.
Joe: Well, yeah, I mean, this guy has
gone on, like, obsessive exercising.
He's in the gym at 5am every single day.
Okay.
Whatever.
There's your answer.
But he also goes to gigs.
He was always someone I
went to some gigs with.
I went to a lot of gigs with.
And he has no issue with shows like gigs.
He still goes to gigs all the time, right?
And doesn't
Sam: drink.
I would see people all
the time at those things.
Because as a bartender, I saw hundreds of
shows and there were so many people there
who were not ordering anything from me.
I get it.
But for
Joe: me So the, the great, times
that aren't Jomo or FOMO, the great
times I've gone out and had a dance
all night or whatever, so sobriety,
I could count on one hand in
sobriety, but they were great times.
But when I go and stand in a Melbourne
pub and don't drink a beer and the
band plays their whatever, prog
rock or whatever it is, and they're
standing there with the guitars
and I'm standing there not dancing.
To me, it's incredibly boring
and I'd rather just be at home.
Whereas when I'd used to have
three or four beers and get, I'd
be feeling the music and maybe
be leaning into someone or.
In Melbourne, people always stand
around, ignore the music, and
talk really loudly to each other.
It's true.
so, but, so that, ignoring the music,
being rude, talking loudly to your
friend about what happened at work
this week is a drunken thing to do.
And do you know what?
As a sober person, you're
like, oh, I wouldn't do that.
That's odd.
Yeah, it is odd.
There's a band playing.
So, it's interesting, like, I've
had It's a stupid thing to do.
Ali: Lots of, yeah, I spent all of my
money on gigs and concerts and stuff when
I was young, and, and it, you know, like,
it was always a huge priority for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The difference in the appreciation I've
had, yeah, being sober at a concert
and sitting down and appreciating
it for that, for what it was.
Actually being present.
Present.
And that was incredible.
But then I can't, yeah, on the same
hand, one of the most fun concerts
I've ever been to was the White Stripes
at Festival Hall when I was like 19
Sam: or 20.
And did you get
Ali: wasted?
Oh, I was completely wasted.
Very, I was off my face on everything.
I got into a fight, I
got kicked in the face.
It was the most fun I think I've ever
Sam: had.
Sometimes you need a kick in the face.
It was, and I got a boot to the
Ali: face.
Like it was just the most, like it was
so hot and so that the condensation from
everyone's sweat was coming off the roof.
I was so, it was so like,
there's no way we'd do that now.
I think, couldn't think of anything worse.
But at the time.
It was like the best night of my life.
It was so much fun, so much fun.
Joe: I've been sober long enough now that
I don't know how sad it would be if I went
to something and was off my head on drugs.
Would I be like an older, weird guy?
Well, that's the other thing.
Like, you know, like, I, but,
but yeah, I mean, I could see it.
Boring, but I can sit here all day
and list amazing experiences on
different substances, with different
bands or at different festivals, and
I have zero regrets about any of it.
But my experience is, without
the substances, I just
would rather be at home.
And that's where the Jomo, which
I only found out about a few weeks
ago, because the ultimate Jomo
for me is watching Tess Cricket.
And I I worked out through a process
of elimination that if the whole world
would just fuck off and leave me alone
to watch Tess cricket, that's about the
happiest I can be, which is solitary in
my house, on a hot summer's day usually.
Just really chewed into this.
So how is that any
Ali: different from me, like,
sitting at home, yeah, with the
cat and then listening to music?
It's the same thing.
Joe: Yeah.
Yeah, and it's the same in, as
well, in the way that I say I won't
compromise on that to have a girlfriend.
If they say to me, Well, you might want
to watch Test Cricket, but we're going
to fucking Port Ferry this weekend for a
quaint Airbnb, I'm like, well, I'm fucking
not going, I'll be watching the cricket.
Obviously,
Sam: the right partner for you
will either be like, awesome,
this guy likes Test Cricket.
That means I get time to myself.
And that also there's a certain
character assessment there.
This person has an eye for detail and
subtlety and you know, hasn't, can
sustain an attention on something.
Like these are actually, these are
good qualities and there's a lot of
I've met some very fine people that
prefer Ted's Cricket to any other kind.
And I say it does actually speaks
highly of character, I think.
And so there's that or the right
partner for you at first doesn't get it.
And then it's quite happy to
see that I'm still in some
Joe: paradigm where If it was Meredith
Music Festival and Test Cricket on
the same weekend, for some reason
Would you feel a conflict over it?
There's this perceived pressure, which
is an AFL footy term, perceived pressure
that I should go and do the Meredith
Music Festival, and very clearly,
very clearly, I will always rather
watch Test Cricket in my lounge room.
So, I don't know when I crossed that
threshold, maybe a long time ago, but
it's interesting that we're all talking
about music events, And it's, is there
a perceived pressure that somehow as
Melbourne people or whatever, we should
be seeing bands, and actually we're
just sitting in our fucking houses.
And, you know, music venues are
atrophying and all that stuff.
I mean, with you, Sam, you're
the biggest homebody, almost,
almost bigger homebody than Ali.
Do you experience Jomo when you're
at home going, Oh, this is nice
compared to, or do you forget about
what it's compared to altogether?
Do you, do you feel any
pressure to be out and about?
Sam: Well, that's the absolute
trick is to forget about whatever
else and just be wherever you are.
Now, this doesn't mean I don't misuse
my time and have moments of regret.
I tell you the stuff I really
like, okay, so I'll start,
I'll honor the Jomo part first.
So cause I actually, I
really am all about it.
When there was mud at Splendour
last year, I hate to admit it.
I'm only human.
I'm just like sucked in,
Ali: sucked
Sam: in, like brilliant.
And it reminded me that it had
rained a bit the year I was there.
And I was like, that
was getting up my ass.
Now imagine.
So, way more rain, the 20 years older.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is apocalyptically shitty.
And I'm so glad I'm not there.
And then Burning Man was
a complete fiasco as well.
And the Fyre Festival.
So, I'm just There's about a 10 year
period where I really got the message and
look, cause my wife had said it to me.
She goes, whatever you
think it is, it's not that.
And like she's, she was so right.
And this is when we'd first met
and I think I was still like
sort of like 29 and I was, I kind
of somehow had gotten the idea.
I have not misspent my twenties
enough, you know, and she's like,
bro, you've fucking misspent them.
Don't worry.
And like, you've done it.
Whatever it is you think it is.
It ain't that.
Move on.
she could see in me, there were all
these other curiosities and ambitions
and she was like, fuck all this, whatever
you think that is, there's things in
you that you want to do, do those.
So now the thing that gives me FOMO
is if I'm not chasing after the
shit that I really find interesting,
which is nearly always at home stuff.
Yes.
Tho there is that just stuff or
I can go to the library to do it.
Is that looking stuff up online that Yeah.
Yeah.
Making things sitting here at the piano.
Mm oh, right.
Yeah.
That's cool.
Making things.
That's what I fear missing out on.
Yeah.
Ali: That's like I was saying to Joe
last night, the thing I really resent is
that I don't have enough time to do the
things I actually wanna do or take joy in.
I could easily fill my days.
Sam: Yeah.
Ali: With all the things
I wanna do, not what I'm
Sam: missing out on getting Yeah.
What I'm missing out on doing for myself.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So,
Ali: and I, I begrudge that I have
to work and not do the things I wanna
do, which is everybody, but me too.
Yeah.
But , like I could, yeah.
I would make sure Joe
loves working by the way.
I, I would be so happy to spend my time.
Yeah.
Like cooking things or making things,
or playing the piano or having the
time to do all of those things.
Like, whereas it's all
just obviously Yeah.
Condensed to weekends or like a
couple hours in the evening when
you're exhausted and so, yeah.
I, it's, that's the fear I, the missing
out on those things and those are,
yeah, quite often solitary things.
It's not like going out or going
on dates or anything like that.
Like it's, it's actually
spending time in the garden.
Like that's what I fear.
There's
Joe: nothing blocking
you from those things.
There's
Ali: a couple of things, but, but yeah,
there is, but some of those things just
take an extraordinary amount of time.
I can't imagine
Joe: having FOMO about
something I can do in my house.
Yes.
FOMO to me is something amazing happening
in the world that I'm not a part of.
Sam: No, no, no.
Put it this way.
If I'm away, let's say, I've had to stay
at work because of a meeting or something.
That's when I'm having FOMO because
there's shit at home that I could
be doing, like useful things or
fun things or meaningful things.
It's like three things basically,
useful, fun or meaningful.
And it's like, All three.
Oh my God.
And things that are
useful, fun and meaningful.
I hate to be a boring virtuous
bastard about this, but very rarely
can you buy it, whatever that is.
And yes, it costs you something, your
effort, your attention, your commitment.
It costs you the opportunity
to do something else.
And this is the real key to like
getting over FOMO is realizing the
thing you're not missing out on.
That's not the issue.
It's your inability to commit to
something that you're, it's not that.
If you really wanted to go to that
festival, you probably would have done it.
You would have figured it out.
If that was really what you
were after, you wouldn't be
sitting here worrying about it.
You'd have made up your mind,
well, next time I'm going to
get it together and do that.
The truth is, that's just a proxy.
It's a stand in.
It's a fetish.
It's an object A.
You've put, it's like, it's like
you with romantic relationships.
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
And people are going around doing
this to themselves all the time.
And so am I, right?
And addicts especially do this.
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
That's the thing.
So turn, turn within
Joe: and there it is.
I'll have FOMO about if I
have a break from dating apps.
It's interesting.
Like I can shut down social
media and just walk away.
12 hours off there.
That's, that's three
dates you could have had.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I'm okay.
And then when I get so much missing out,
say if I'm off the dating apps and then
Ali starts telling me about dates she's
got coming up, I'll feel a bit of FOMO.
Stop triggering him.
Yeah.
But like, if other people are.
Are having fun and it's like, that's
when I get FOMO, because yeah.
It's what you just said.
It's what I've prior
prioritised as having value.
Yeah.
So, I feel like I'm I, I have perceived
pressure that I should have FOMO about
not going to gigs of bands that I like.
Yeah.
But actually.
I'll be often in those moments feeling
Jomo at, well, I might be most, a lot of
nights I'm doing stuff for my recovery,
actually, and yeah, that's right,
spanning my, spiritual life and whatever.
And a lot of times that shows are
on, I'm actually got my kids and I
wouldn't have been able to be there.
I'm starting at work four in the
morning next day and I wouldn't
have been able to be there.
No.
And I actually, the
Sam: only, one of the few times
I've had FOMO recently was when you
were like reading books and like
keen and having a good time with it.
And I'm like, that is something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's like, that's a thing
that called to me a little bit.
I don't
Joe: have, I need to find More
Jomo, as in, I won't be getting up
and going to work tomorrow because
I don't have work at the moment.
What you guys are talking about
is, I want to play my piano and
my keyboard and be creative.
I don't have the equivalent of that.
So when I get a surplus of my own time, it
becomes unpleasant fairly quickly for me.
Ali: That's what I was saying to you.
I very rarely get bored.
I really don't get bored.
I remembered this was a
while ago, cause I've been
Joe: Do you, do you, do
you want a fucking medal?
Ali: No, it's not, no, I'm just
Joe: We're going somewhere with this.
No, I
Ali: was gonna say, like, I remember this
really vividly, coming back, On the tram
from work, just thinking, like coming
back from work and thinking, I cannot
wait to get home to the cat, be in my
comfy clothes, have something to eat.
Like it was just, I was
so excited for that.
It was such a simple thing.
Joe: That's the definition of Jomo.
Now you're ringing my bell right?
Yeah, like it was, I was,
Ali: it was just really, could not wait.
Joe: What you're missing out
on is all the other possible
things you could do that night.
Yeah, like a dance club.
Yeah, could be
Ali: having after work drinks on a Friday.
All of those things that historically
I would have been like, Oh, I haven't
Joe: listed very many things
that we're missing out on, but
it is what you would assume.
It's like after work drinks,
Sam: after work drinks with
the colleagues that has, that
has got me a few times lately.
It's not, It's not for the, it's just
to talk shit with the colleagues.
Yeah.
It's like, okay, I
haven't done that enough.
Fair enough.
That well, then that's just
telling you don't have anything
Joe: other than you doing it.
That's not Jomo or Thomo.
Exactly.
I only have to, that's you doing the
expected thing, which is the social thing.
Sam: Well, exactly.
But what I'm saying is if I felt the
twinge, even for a second, that's
just a signal from my subconscious
going, okay, we'll go and do it.
If it's important to you.
Yeah.
But like the, I remember the first time
I got, you know, my wife said to me, why
wouldn't, like years ago, when we first
met, wouldn't, Why wouldn't you just
want to be in your pyjamas right now?
And I'm like, all right, fine.
It's very ace this one.
Okay.
I shall try this.
And so, you know, so like,
oh, and have a shower first.
And I'm like, makes sense.
Okay.
So I do that, get into the pyjamas
and I'm like, and it's like, I don't
know, six o'clock at night or whatever.
And I'm like, this is pretty good.
Actually, I have to admit, why haven't
I been doing this for years now?
And then, and then, So, a recent
experience of being in the Dharmis
and like, and going, imagine if I
had to be anywhere right now, just
imagine, imagine I'd even bought
tickets to something I was really into.
Like nowadays it's going to be a
conference or something like that.
I mean, it's going to be something,
but imagine if I booked something
I was really looking forward to and
now I actually had to go and do it.
Ali: Yeah.
No, like, like last night,
it was a Saturday night and.
Yeah.
Like historically, like, why
are you not out on a date?
Why not go out with your friends?
Why are you not doing something?
Yeah.
Like doing something.
And I just was so happy to be at home.
I had a really good night.
It was just, and like,
yeah, I did a lot of things.
I watched a movie I wanted to watch.
I played my piano.
I talked to friends.
I listened to music.
Like I read, it was just.
Yeah.
You
Sam: weren't, you weren't scrolling
Netflix looking for something.
No, I wasn't just, yeah,
Ali: like I did also have time to look
at TikTok too, and that was also fun.
But was getting it all done.
It was all just, yeah, like I
said, I, I, I, I just wish I
had more time to do all that.
All the time.
Joe: So it is an episode
about us becoming boring.
Ali: See,
Sam: now this is where I do the pivot
on you and go, see, it's like, it's
about the, it's like with the attachment
stuff and like body acceptance and
all of this, like it's about getting
into the texture of the experience,
like the reality of the thing itself.
And see, cause what gets boring is
the kind of those mediated experiences
where like, Oh, I need to be, I
need to be having fun right now.
And the formula is this.
Put together this, this and this,
and now it's fun in inverted commas.
Now, whether it's ASD or whether
it's something else, that very
rarely came together for me.
Yeah,
Ali: like the imagined experience of
what it's going to be like is, does, just
often didn't match up to the reality.
It's like, yeah, I, my feet hurt cause
I've been standing at the music festival.
Or yeah, I'm stuck in mud or you've, and
you've had enough experiences to actually
go, Oh, that's, that's not for me.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
And yeah, being really okay with
not making yourself uncomfortable
and choosing your comfort.
And similarly, like you're saying
with the body stuff, like being in
a, the answer that I thought to all
my problems would be if I looked
a certain way, and then I lost.
The weight and then I did not answer
all my problems and, but it created
a whole bunch of other problems.
And it was like the reality of what it was
did not match up to this like fantasy of
what I thought it was going to be like.
Sam: That's right.
And, and, and, and so those play,
the FOMO is always coming from a
place of projection and projection.
And the pleasure itself that you
think you're missing out on was also
an object of projection to begin
with, even when you were enjoying it.
And like, I know I'm getting a little
bit too philosophical here, but
you know what I'm getting at Joe?
That like, Meredith isn't Meredith.
I mean, I got close once, but I think I
got spoiled also because my father took
me to Port Ferry, , at quite a young age,
, I saw this absolutely sublime music at
like, eight, nine years old, lying down on
like a little picnic rug, Maybe my head in
dad's lap and we're like listening to this
just heartbreakingly beautiful music Irish
instrumental music that was like slow
not jigs and reels like something really
aching these melodies and just feeling
these wonderful feelings and going like,
oh man, this is so cool and Nothing's
been out of get close again to that.
It's almost like I Don't, the boring is
going and doing something you think is
going to be fun and projecting onto it.
Like fun, the opposite of boring
is tuning into the possibilities
here in the present right now.
Yeah.
That's where it's at.
Yeah.
Joe: I mean, but see everything.
The path is, my path is my path because
the peak drug experience has turned
into the humdrum drug experience.
Turned into the bad drug experience.
Well, life has just
Sam: beat you over the head again
and again with the pleasures
that have become poisons.
Yes.
Joe: You know, before I ever had kids,
I was so sick of going to fucking house
parties and sitting in a backyard around
a fire and getting drunk and high.
You were over it.
I was over it.
So I was like, Hey, I'm going to do this.
How about you and me have a kid?
Yeah, let's do it.
And then life became fascinating again,
because there's a little baby in the
house and whatever, and then same with
like music festivals, and long before
I got clean and sober, I was over it.
So there's no way to go back.
Sam: It's only burnt bridges that you
can deal with, is what I've realised.
Joe: I could be trying to hang on, but I
think it would be a bit pathetic at 44.
I could have my, I could go back to
drinking and have my favourite pub in
Collingwood, and wear my tracksuits, and
people would get to know me, and I'd be
part of a scene, and sometimes Friday
nights I'd pick up younger women, because
I go out, the only times I go out is
for dating, and I go out on dates, and
from Friday nights, People come up to
me and compliment me on my tracksuit and
I was like oh wow I could be out here
being a character and being part of a
scene right yeah yeah but you're doing
that right now but see what I actually
do is dress up in my bright tracksuits
at home yeah and go for a walk around my
neighborhood in footscray and sometimes
people stop me and compliment me but it's
important to me you've got it already
well I'm still trying to hang on to
Sam: Some other idea of what it was.
Joe: Being cool is still
a huge value for me.
And I find it's fine.
And I think it's really
important for me to be cool.
Yeah.
Great.
But to do it just wherever I am,
even if that's inside my house.
Yeah.
And
Sam: now you're preaching my gospel.
Yes.
Live where you live.
Yeah.
Be here now.
And even
Joe: if it's the day that I don't
leave the house, I still try and
dress up in my nice track suit.
And if I do go out incidentally
or whatever, it's nice
to feel like I'm there.
This look that I've created, I'm sticking
to it, but it's not, but the next step
is to be like, well, now I'm going to
be part of this scene and they're going
to know me as, you know, this guy.
And I forget about all that.
I basically remain anonymous.
Ali: Let's
Joe: book a podcast festival.
Yeah.
Sam: Let's go do a podcast festival.
Ali: Being, you know, being perceived
as cool, still that FOMO part of that
is the social currency that you get
from, I was at that festival, I was
at that concert, I saw them live.
And so there's a little bit of
that, Oh, that's really cool.
Whereas like just saying you
spent your Saturday night at home
with the cat, like, is that like,
Sam: no, that's going
to get points for me.
Ali: Yeah.
I'm going to get, you know,
shit hung on me by Joe.
Right.
Whereas a very long time ago.
I realized I no longer care if
people think I'm cool or not,
because I'm absolutely not.
And I just do not care if other
people think I'm not cool.
That's just been a, yeah,
that's been a relief.
And so that's why it's liberating.
And so then ironically
Joe: you started doing this podcast
and people write into us all the
time and they're like fans of yours.
You started getting a fan base long
after you stopped caring about.
Yes.
Being cool.
Yeah.
Which is a sweet irony, I think.
Sam: The essence of cool is, like I
realised this a long time ago, but like
looking at others before I realised
it, that it was true for me too.
The coolest thing, why did
Hendrix or Dylan look so cool
doing what they were doing?
You know, and we can talk about the
accessories and some of the fashion
choices and all of that, definitely
there's part of it, but it's, Imagine
Hendrix just like dressed much more
ordinarily and the hair's not anything
and like he would still rip yeah like the
the vibe would still be intense yeah or
Ali: maybe even those choices of those
things were things he took joy from and
pleasure from and just lent into that and
that then started And people could then
see that and that's what became cool.
And that's similarly like
with the tracksuits and stuff,
because it is a bold choice.
It's
Joe: doing it and doing it well.
Exactly.
Yeah, but the next phase I think that's
even cooler is to become more anonymous.
So at the moment I've destroyed,
I've destroyed, deleted my
Facebook and Instagram accounts.
Yeah.
And there's really nowhere
to post a picture of myself
in a cool tracksuit, right?
So it becomes more anonymous.
But Friday night, I
was out on High Street.
And someone came up and said they
really love my track suit and that's
the only time Unless I go back on social
media that I'll get that feedback.
But that means more anyway, doesn't it?
Well, my teenage daughter and all her
friends think my tracksuits are cool.
How cool is that?
Fourteen year olds think you're cool.
And they think it's cool that I have
a podcast and I'm like a cooler dad.
Man, you are Shaquille O'Neal
Sam: right now.
Joe: But when I try and interact with.
With the other parents from my kids
schools, I have like a meltdown,
I can't interact with them.
It's a minefield.
I'm like, why are we talking like this?
Why are we pretending that we're normal?
And I can't do it.
So I just Do you know what's
Sam: fun though?
I'd
Joe: rather be cool to the 14
year old kids than get along
with their fucking parents.
Yeah, yeah, no, I
Sam: know, and I know you don't mean
that in a bad way, but I'm sure they're
Joe: great people, but I've
realized I'm going to get through
both of their schooling without
knowing any of the other parents.
I cannot
Sam: Can I recommend though, there'll
always be one or two in the parent
group, so you've got to imagine.
Joe: I know, I don't mean, like, I'm
sure there are great parents, but in
the context of, like, I, man, like.
Just
Sam: do the thing that I do which is wrong
so often, but so right so often, which
is Everyone else, okay, not everyone,
but a lot of other people are feeling
the exact same way as me right now.
Now, of course, I've been so wrong about
that so many times, turns out I was the
only person thinking and feeling it.
Oh, okay.
But on, I guarantee you amongst the
parents, there's at least one or two
people that you would genuinely connect
with and that you could be real around.
And how do you find out?
We see you gave us a clue on that.
To this, in the last episode, you
know, you do little tests on the text.
How far can I go with this?
You know, it's like, yeah, me too, a short
of, you know, I'm not going to take a shit
in the middle of the function and then
see who still talks to me the next day.
But I might push it just a little here
and there and see, you can just like,
Ali: how honest am I going to
be about how my day's going?
And you can just.
That is the biggest test, and
you're like, you can do that.
It's a fun game.
I get along
Joe: great with people at
work, but it's compulsory.
There's nowhere else to go.
I'm there 14 hours a day in my job.
Okay, and so
Sam: there's a clue there.
Commitment is the key.
It's not
Joe: compulsory to be friends with
your fucking No, because you see people
School kids, other parents or whatever.
You see
Sam: people opt out of that
at work all the time too.
Which is truly missing out
on one of life's great joys,
which is shooting the shit.
With other peons on the company dime.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is one of life's great toys.
Yeah.
And being in the is your
Ali: collective, you know,
collective experience,
experience of trauma , correct?
That's what it is.
Yeah.
Being in the
Sam: trenches with the other,
yeah, with the other peons.
'
Joe: cause there's a solidarity there.
I'm, I'm fine with that.
I see them as it's the best, yeah.
One's optional, one's compulsory.
And once it's compulsory,
I'll make the best of it.
But if it's optional,
I can opt the fuck out.
So the clue is, yeah, not be
friendly to the other parents.
That's,
Sam: no, that's fair.
I think that's a common response.
Yeah.
But I have, I guess a different
experience because for me it is
compulsory, I guess, You know, I don't
want to get into why, but particularly
it's just boring, but like, I do feel
the need not to keep up appearances,
but to maintain some stocks and it's
Ali: for the benefit of kids and
this and social things and making
sure they're, you know, included or
that you're across stuff at school.
Like there isn't, there's
an element of that.
Sam: And to tell you the truth.
Okay.
So here's a little one.
Um, I was feeling some FOMO
about not doing enough music.
So, did you always want to be a rock star?
If you could be anything?
Oh, absolutely.
And I thought if I couldn't be that, that
it would be like some writer or something.
But,
Joe: so that's a deep FOMO then.
That's an existential, like my whole
life's purpose was to be a rock star.
And now I'm missing out.
Sam: Yeah.
Long since let go of it though.
Like when, but when I was 23, it was
closer to like a Bowie thing maybe, but
Like, it moved on from Dylan, Young,
Hendrix, and then my culture heroes have
changed a great deal over the years.
Joe: Did you ever get
close to being a rockstar?
Sam: Oh no, I was on occasion.
Right.
Like, I embodied it.
Just, it wasn't thousands of people, it
was only a hundred or two hundred and
occasionally I absolutely crushed it in
a very small room with 30 or 40 or 50.
No one walked out of there thinking
that was not the gig to be at.
So I can genuinely say I'd got
my mic drop moments and everyone
was in the palm of the hand.
I got off once and There were these
two people who'd been particularly
into it, but no one wasn't into it.
And they said to me, what are you doing?
I'm like, oh, my time's up.
And they're like.
Your time's up when you say it is.
And I'm like, holy shit,
you're absolutely right.
And I just got right back
up there and carried on.
And they were like, bro, we're in,
we're in the palm of your hand.
Like, don't let go now.
And I'm like, all right, all right.
And, and I had nothing else prepared.
So I had to dig deep.
And to
Joe: me, that's what life, that's
the best, that's the best of life.
It is.
The flow state.
Exactly.
That's the peak state, the flow
state, and it's neither Jomo
nor Fomo, it's better than both.
It's completely beyond it.
But if we can't have that, and 99 percent
of the time, we're not going to have
that, then let's try and have You're lucky
Ali: if you get a few moments
in your lifetime of that, I
reckon, it's really just moments.
It's true.
Sam: Yeah.
You can't be too, you can't be too
greedy about it, and, and, but also
you do, don't, don't be caught napping
when inspiration strikes, be ready
Joe: yeah.
And that's, yeah.
Maybe that's what we need to watch
out for at our age is just completely
sinking into Jomo and not going
for any of those peak experiences.
Ali: Well, so that's, well, so that's
why, you know, you're like, oh, you still
go out on dates or things like that.
There is a, that is me consciously
not being complacent and just
being complacent and just Becoming
a shut in can be my default.
It's so easy to just to
isolate and be by myself.
And I'm quite content doing that.
And so there is a conscious effort of
like, no, I've got to continue to, yeah,
meet people and do things and, and.
Yeah.
And, and, and continue, but that's
not just in a dating context, but
also, yeah, continue to invest in
my friendships and things like, and
the things that I'm interested in
that are not just done in isolation.
So that's very much about building those
things into my life in a sustainable way.
And like, and that's,
it's the thing, like.
The balance was tipped so far in the
other direction when I was young that,
cause I was so unaware of my needs.
Sam: Oh, nothing you were
doing was sustainable.
Yeah.
Ali: Like I was so unaware of what
I needed and downtime and things
like, just as an introverted person.
And you know, I'd be out like
five, six nights a week easily.
Yeah.
And just
Sam: spending energy.
Yeah.
Like currency you didn't have.
Yeah,
Ali: exactly.
And then wondering why I'd
end up like in a very bad way,
whereas now it's sort of so much.
Yeah.
Yeah, like I know I've got like one
date in me a week and maybe a social
activity and the rest of the time
I actually, I need recharging time.
And like last night was recharging time
and I needed that because I didn't get
that last weekend cause I was away.
So yeah, it's about, if you did
Sam: more than one date, you'd be
missing out on other things that are
more important than that extra date.
Ali: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
So yeah, it's sort of finding the balance
that's right for you and your needs.
So that you can, so yeah, you don't feel
like you are missing out on other things
and you are also enjoying the thing.
Yeah.
The things that you,
you want and prioritize.
Sam: Yeah.
That's, that's exactly right.
And then, so the key is that
what you said, what you want and
what you prioritize, that's the
whole entire problem right there.
It's like, well, I said this
in the, on the last step, like
I didn't know what I wanted.
I didn't know what was important to me.
I didn't.
because you raised existentialism we
didn't get to talk about it properly
but that's been lurking underneath
the surface of this whole topic right
here and the reason it came up with
attachment was well existentialism
crosses over with it in that area of who
are we right are we the person in the
world That we are projecting ourselves
to be out into the world or are we the
person that other people think we are?
And this is a problem that becomes
particularly acute in relationships
because you can't maintain the illusion
of, so when you walk down the street,
you can tell whatever story you want and
people can pick that story up and affirm
it to you or they can not affirm it, but
they're going to keep that to themselves.
You're not troubled by it.
When you're in a relationship,
you go to project.
And this, and then your girlfriend
doesn't pick up the projection that
you're trying to put out there.
It's like crushing, but you know, and
Joe: It's the same if you post a photo
on Instagram, you're either going
to get likes, no likes or comments.
And the comments are never
going to be, you look like shit.
Yeah, yeah, that's true, but
that's a complete, if you, yeah,
that's not a way to perceive
what people really think of you.
No, it could be a hundred people looked
at that photo and thought, what a wanker.
And that's why you value
Sam: the true friends.
You can tell you don't say anything.
That's exactly right.
So do you want a hundred
bootlickers or one real friend?
Like, it's such an easy question.
Well, a
Joe: Facebook.
On high street once a month is telling
me I look good in my tracksuit.
Well, that's, that
person's not a bootlicker.
No, that's right.
They haven't signed up to
follow me on Instagram.
They've got no, I'm not begging for
them to tell me they like my fucking.
Hair man, it's yours.
Take it.
Getting a compliment from
Ali: a woman.
Like out in a, like in a bar on
my outfit or my makeup or how
I'm looking is the ultimate.
Like I had someone scream out to
me when I was wearing a leopard
print coat last year, like on the
road, like actually like, like
yelled out to me to slow me down and
like, Oh my God, I love your coat.
I'm like, I fucking love this coat.
I want to be buried in this coat.
But, and we had a chat and yeah,
like, it's just those compliments
are just, Oh, they're the best.
Usually a
Sam: woman is not trying
to sleep with you.
Now, if they were trying to
sleep with you, would the
compliment land in the same way?
Ali: Yes.
Oh,
Sam: wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
Good to know.
Oh, well, I think
Joe: we should wrap
Sam: it up guys.
Oh, I just wanted to chase down the
existentialism just a tiny bit, which
is like the, it's the getting more
comfortable with the responsibility of
creating your own meaning basically.
And it is a heavy responsibility
and having all that choice
and , what do I want?
What will I prioritize?
Massive burdens.
And in, like, rather than like actually
address those questions seriously, on
a note, I'll just reach for a proxy
that the culture has offered me, which
is going to a music festival as is
expected yeah, no, no, fuck that.
What do you, what do you want?
And it's actually the
hardest question to answer.
And, and, you know, Whether it's a really
good friendship or the, you know, a
good intimate partnership, it forces you
constantly to confront your illusions
and turn towards what do you really want.
Joe: It's like, if, if you've got
clothes that you like wearing that
you feel good in, don't just wear them
when you go on a date, wear them when
you're at home watching the footy.
And that's what I do.
And it's dopamine dressing.
Like it works.
Ali: It's wearing your perfume every
day, not just when you're saving it.
Yeah.
And be
Joe: seen a little, and be
perceived just a little bit.
Um, it's, it's enticing.
Whereas when I'm in just daggy
fucking, you know, middle aged
dad clothes, I feel the opposite.
I'm like, I don't want to leave the house.
I don't want to get off the couch.
Like, I'll go back to
that existential stuff.
The moment I leave here, I'll be like,
okay, I was just hanging out with Sam
and Ali, we've got a podcast in the can.
Yeah.
They, you know, they got their kids,
they go, I don't have my kids for a week,
ah, right, ah, so where do I go now,
and, and, and what do I do, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's just a con until the day I
die, it will be a not clear thing for
me of what to fucking do with myself.
Sam: I understand, I understand that
feeling that it'll never be clear to
you, because I certainly do feel that
way sometimes now, but I, but I will
say it's, Yeah, but you, guys like
Joe: you, kill for that moment.
Oh, for sure.
Because you've got little kids, and
you just don't get many of those.
Sam: Time's at a premium,
so you don't waste it.
No, I understand that.
Whereas, yeah.
But believe me, there's times when
I'm like, Maybe I would be better off,
not being married, or maybe I would
be better off, like, having more time
to myself, you know, so, that's part
of the FOMO I've had to deal with, of
like, oh, life would be better if I
had less responsibilities, and like,
Joe: A lot of my loves have kind of
fallen away, so where Ali says that she
has no problem filling up her time, My
love for cinema, I could leave here and
go to the local cinema and watch a movie.
You're just not the Scorsese
tragic you used to be.
But I've lost the habit and I'm constantly
disappointed by what's in the cinema.
Move on, move on.
I don't go, I could go tonight and watch
a band and No, you're, no, move on.
But like, I'm free.
I have that much freedom that
I'm free to do those things.
You're not beholden to any of that.
But the joy, if you want to talk
about joy, the joy just, I just, I
Sam: can't find it there.
No, no, no.
I'll tell you where it is.
What do you take screenshots of, right?
And send to, Ali and me.
Things from books.
And so, and like, I said this to
you when, when you got here before
Ali and, and I was like, man, here's
a free podcast idea that would
absolutely do good, great numbers.
And I bet you it would
take those screenshots.
It's a, it's a five to 10 minute format.
It has to be short.
I think you can do longer ones
now and then you're going to
take one of those screenshots.
You're going to read it out and you're
just going to go straight into the read.
Right?
You're not going to waste
time introducing anything.
And then you're going to say what you
think about it, and maybe you'll offer
a biographical note, or say a tiny bit
more about what book it came from, etc.
But it's really just about the reflection
and You could offer that as a weekly
or a daily and it would crush and you
would get so much fun out of doing it.
Ali: And it's having a project.
I was talking to somebody about this
a little while ago in that having a
project with very tangible sort of
results that you can see and progress
and have that as an ongoing thing in
your life is actually so rewarding.
Super value projects,
Sam: not pleasures.
That's what I think about.
And I, I
Ali: realized I didn't have, I needed
another, I needed a project because of all
the gardening and stuff that I just wasn't
doing because of my back and all that.
So.
Like it's a bit, I, I need to find
a new project that will fit into
my life as it is at the moment.
Sustainable, viable, yeah, and like,
so for this person it was building,
a Lego Millennium, Millennium Falcon,
like, and I was like, that's a very cool
little project to do every night, and
where, and so, Yeah, I, for me, it was,
I've ordered a recipe book and bought a
recipe book and I'm going to methodically
cook my way through every recipe.
But it's, it's then
having something to, yeah.
And so whether you're doing a podcast
and reviewing the little bits of, that
you find interesting, it's like a project
that you can have as an ongoing thing.
It's a process.
Sam: when you find yourself
going, what's a pleasure that I
can go and get myself right now?
The addicts mentality.
Oh, but I do
Joe: have
Sam: like
Joe: replace
Sam: pleasure
Joe: with project.
Sam: Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
I kind of didn't want to talk about it
because who knows how long it lasts,
but I am trying a diet at the moment.
And so what I'll do is leave here.
I know what I'm going to do.
We're gonna leave here and follow you.
We're gonna go buy a bunch of
fucking celery because that's the
only thing I can eat on this diet.
I'm gonna eat some sticks of
celery and I'm gonna start
doing laps around Princes Park.
But then the existential thoughts
will come in because I'm walking
on my own and so that kind of
like, Oh, listen to a podcast.
Who am I?
What am I doing here?
Stuff is always just beneath the surface.
But then actually the other part, the
books I'm borrowing, which are spiritual
texts that you've lent me, that's where I
find my things that aren't FOMO or JOMO.
It's my 12 step spiritual practice,
which as we know, I'm restricted from
what I can talk about on this show.
But I'll probably go to a meeting tonight.
I'll have spiritual texts I can read.
It's not stuff that I particularly,
like someone like Ali, I don't
expect her to understand necessarily
what I'm getting from that.
Um, a lot of my friends
won't understand that.
Sam, I think you would more so.
I dig it.
But it's a very personal.
I'll be your first listener.
It's, and all those screenshots you
talked about, uh, I Uh, from spiritual
texts, 80 percent of them, so it's
like getting an autodidact spiritual
education that aligns with the
spiritual experiences that I'm having.
That's maybe the rest of my life in
terms of things that aren't FOMO or
JOMO, things that are the essence of
what I want to be doing with my time.
Sam: Yes, life affirming, purposeful.
And this is the stuff.
Joe: But it's not my style in a
lot of ways because it's quiet.
It's content.
It's the contemplative life.
No, no, no, but he's the life of a con
Sam: what's that word?
Contemplative.
Yeah.
Contemplative.
It's that life actually.
Oh, sorry.
It's so obvious to me though.
You'll make it yours.
You'll do it your way.
There's so many pods out there.
There's so many people out there doing
a similar thing, like blogging with a
little quote and then reflecting on it.
Like, or.
Maybe they're doing it on camera or
maybe they're doing it on audio or
maybe they're doing it in person or
they're writing books of their own.
But the thing that would be you, you
would bring your own personality,
your own reflection to this.
You've got every right to do it,
but also no one else can do it
the way you're going to do it.
So in a way, All this work you've put
in, benefit yourself and rescue yourself
from misery and torture, in a way you've
got just a small, small d duty to pass
that on and help others along the way
because that's what, that's, that's
what got me out of a pit was listening
to other people putting it together.
I like doing it here with you guys.
But I think a solo, little solo
mission and you do it with so
much entertaining, you do it big.
Do it big.
You don't have to be the quiet.
You don't have to be like, Mr.
Chill, serene yogi.
You can do it your way.
Joe: It's think that there's a way
that what's going to give my life
meaning is actually it's anonymous.
It's anonymous.
It's quiet.
It's anonymous.
It's
Yeah,
it's my spiritual life and it's actually
not a loud broadcasted thing necessarily.
Sure.
But
Sam: each, each one teach one.
And as you learn, so you teach.
Well, I'll have my kids and
other people in addiction and
Ali: those interpersonal sort of
experiences where, yeah, where
you, you are sharing your wisdom
and, or providing advice or those,
those give my life so much meaning.
And I have really.
Yeah, I have really a close, very
small, but close network of friends
that I feel like I'm able to give that.
And it's, it's reciprocated.
It's obviously, but those, I think,
like you said, it's an anonymous thing.
It's not going to be something
that's ever anybody else would,
but it doesn't make it any less
Joe: meaningful.
But this isn't anonymous.
This is us three.
We're honing your skills.
The reason you joined the show
is because you're so good.
at engaging with ideas and
having some wisdom, right?
So now you're putting it out there to the
entire world that, that, that little gift
that you had between you and a few friends
of being a good person to go to if you
had a breakup or being a good person to go
to if something's happened with your kids
and you're not sure what to do about it.
Now you are sharing that gift with the,
there's no limit on who can listen to it.
There's a limit on who's
listening to it, but there is
actually no limit on who could.
Find and access this information
once we put it out there, right?
But I
Ali: don't find it any, like, yet.
What I'm saying is that
Joe: maybe I can be loud tracksuit
guy on the exterior, but the real
meaning, the stuff that really is
going to fill up my cup, it might be
a lot quieter and more contemplative.
I can't say that word.
Contemplative.
Contemplative, yeah.
So it's just, look, it's
all, it's all unknown.
And like, whether you, Sam, find
a quieter way to be a rock star
or start playing a bit of music.
Again and getting out there and I've
Sam: joined the parents band.
Joe: Oh, there's a parents band?
Mm.
Yeah.
Nice.
So like that
It's been, yeah, look, it's actually fine.
I think we should wrap it up.
But it's been an interesting chat
'cause it's made me think about.
I think Jomo is a fantastic
way to deal with fomo.
Yes.
And next time I'm watching the footy at
home, instead of being at a gig, I'll
once again think, ah, this is Jomo.
Yeah, absolutely.
But there's something else which
is doing the thing that your heart
really calls to your heart, you know?
And that's neither Jomo, no phone.
Well, that's what I'm saying.
Sam: That's the, that's
the cure being in the zone.
Yeah.
That's the cure.
And, yeah.
Yeah.
Go on Ally.
Ali: No, no, I was just
gonna say it's that balance.
Yeah.
Like if.
But having, yeah, it cannot be all
Jomo and isolating, nor can it be
like FOMO and feeling left out.
It's, it's having a balance of
a little bit of everything that
pushes you to do some things also.
But none of us are saying we need
Joe: to recapture the
excitement of our 20s.
And no one needs to go to a
music festival and be in the
mud on drags, like, yeah, like,
Ali: like it's okay.
Like you might, like I said, I, for
me, Blondie was always on my bucket
list and I'm like, you know what?
I am going to make the exception and
I'm going to go because I, I, I thought
my dream was to be Clem Burke when I
was like 19, be the next Clem Burke.
So I'm going to be able to see him play
the drums and it's going to be great.
Like that's, whereas, but
yeah, whether But I'm not gonna
go to every music festival.
I'm not gonna go every Like, that's
what I, yeah, would have spent all of my
money on when I was younger, was going
out to those things and gigs and stuff.
Whereas now it's just like, no, I'm gonna
Just save it for the, yeah, push myself
for the, make the exceptions, but then
also, yeah, like find the pleasure in
listening to it at home with the cat.
Sam: Mega, mega conscious decision, but
also truth be told, it's not a substitute.
It is a peak experience to be
alone in a room with, and you've
chosen the exact song and you've
played it at the exact volume.
And.
Ali: Ear bleedingly loud.
And I'm
Sam: jumping up and down or
I'm moving in a strange way and
no one needs to know about it.
And it's for me only.
It's me and the cat.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
And it's like, that was always
more fun than the other stuff.
Like, that was actually where it was at
and beating that at a concert was going
to be impossible because I don't feel
like I can be myself in that context.
I'm not allowed to enjoy it the
way I want to enjoy it without
pissing other people off.
Ali: There's a silliness and
playfulness that you get.
In isolation.
Yeah.
Because there's no judgment.
That's right.
Yeah.
Except the, except the cat maybe judging
me, but like she's definitely is.
But yeah, there it, there is.
Yeah.
It's liberating is what it is.
Sam: Yeah.
Alright, let's go guys.
And.
Yeah, let's, let's, I had another
thought for both of you though.
You don't have to go home,
but you can't stay here.
No, look, I'm sorry to do this to
you, Joe, but Ali, the other reason
you're on this show is because you felt
the calling to do it, and it was the
right call, and you listened to it.
All right, I'm going to do the thing.
And Joe, your show, where you read quotes
and then just do a quiet reflection on the
Joe: You're the one who owns
the means of production, Sam.
I don't actually have a microphone, so.
Sam: Oh, okay.
All right.
Ali: You could probably
do it on your phone.
It's so Let's sort it.
Sam: Yeah.
We'll get something sorted.
Yeah.
I'm the first listener.
All right.
Bye, everyone.
Joe: Jomo and Fomo.
That's been another two
of the 10, 000 things.
I
Sam: think we
Joe: took them down hard.
Ali: See ya.
See ya.