Ep. 103: Killer for Hire - Jeff Senger

If you hunt, or eat meat, this podcast should be considered essential listening if you to ensure you are eating the best meat possible. 

Jeff Senger left a fast paced high paying job in the world of accounting to pursue his passion for both domestic and wild game meat.  Jeff is a Ted Talk alumni and runs Sanguda Custom Meat Packers as well as Modest Meats in Edmonton Alberta.  Jeff is by far one of the most passionate and knowledge people I have ever talked to on the topic of meat.  His energy and enthusiasm combined with the sheer volume of information he has on the subject is nearly palpable.    What makes game meat tasty gamey? How do you best age your meat? What are best meat handling practices from a butchers perspective? What’s the best way to prepare tough meat?   This is only the tip of the iceberg for Jeff Senger.

Website: https://www.modestmeats.ca/   Instagram:
Modest Meats: https://www.instagram.com/modestmeats/
Jeff Senger: https://www.instagram.com/jeff_senger/
From the Wild: https://www.instagram.com/fromthewildca/    

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today.

I'm excited to have a
very interesting guest.

This person left a fast-paced, high paying
job in the world of accounting is a TED

Talk alumni and now kills her money.

Welcome to the Silvercore
Podcast, Jeff Senger.

Hey.

Hi Travis.

How are you doing?

Really good.

And what we should have done is we
should have pressed record at the

very beginning when we're talking here
because the amount of gold that we have

before and after a podcast is, is crazy.

I really wish there's a way to capture
that, but you know, I guess that's

just the nature of doing podcasts.

I feel

Jeff Senger: that.

Yeah, I think we did cover some good
ground, but now we're able to share it.

Yeah, now we were pals.

We could just share and
chat about anything, man.

Travis Bader: Totally.

So I find it interesting you had
I, you kind of followed a path

that a lot of people dream about.

They are sitting in their cubicle,
looking out the window or driving

into work, stuck in rush hour traffic
thinking, man, if I didn't have to

do this, I'd be doing something else.

And you said, Hey, I'm
making a lot of money.

I'm working as an accountant, but
I want to do something different.

Can you tell me about that?

Yeah.

Story just to kind of get things rolling.

Jeff Senger: Well, we were in the
right place at the right time.

Uh, we owned a home in Calgary
in the 2004 to 2006 times.

So we were a hundred thousand heirs
for doing nothing at all other than

existing and qualifying for credit.

Uh, so we became a hundred
thousandaires by a fluke.

Really?

Um, and I said, wow, Heather, you
know, we could own a piece of land.

Heather.

Heather became pregnant, right?

Like in my, okay.

Year two or year three in
Calgary, year two and a half.

A very repetitive monthly
schedule that made me want to

kill myself, and I was the guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dark humor.

Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

Looking out the window of the office
tower down in Calgary, looking at the

mountains and just wishing to be outside
and, uh, So that was the calling.

And we, we had this in a once
in a lifetime fluke of having

a bunch of wealth growing up.

Uh, uh, down we, I joked, downwardly
mobile, lower middle class was

how our both, both of us lived.

Like things weren't great.

Yes.

And the older I get, I realized, yeah.

That that wasn't normal.

Like pizza pops and uh,
pizza pops were, dinner was.

Anyway, uh, so Heather being
pregnant and, and, and kind

of, uh, uh, going through that.

And Calgary, she's a teacher.

I'm accounting, and uh, I said, we're a
hundred thousandaires now we have equity.

Yeah.

And the normal thing to do was to
refinance and just get on that hamster

wheel, uh, refinance, buy a bigger
house, refinance, use the down payment.

Buy a bigger house.

Buy a bigger house.

And I said, well, we have enough
money to, to move to a very poor third

world country and own 10 or 20 acres.

So I was looking at
Nicaragua online, um, a lot.

Yeah.

And, uh, there were problems
with Nicaragua because Canadian

education didn't prepare us to
speak, uh, hardly any languages,

uh, other than rudimentary English.

And, um, so, uh, I don't know, a few
months of, uh, and worrying about not,

so not speaking Spanish, uh, the worry
of nationalization for like, so sort of

moving to another culture would be hard.

Spiders.

I don't like spiders, so, so
some stroke of, uh, some miracle

flash of, uh, brilliance.

I said I found the very poor third world
country Heather, and that's rural Alberta.

And she was like, uh, our
parents are in Edmonton.

I said, so we have this kid on the way,
uh, we can move to Edmonton, or we moved

to a, a rural area very close to Edmonton.

Uh, within an hour of the city was
probably about one eighth the price

of a similar house in Calgary that
was an hour from downtown, which

was eight 86th, uh, avenue South.

Yes.

So it took an hour on the train to
get to my office tower downtown.

Uh, and I'd have to step over human
feces on the platform to get to my job.

And there were some of those
poignant moments, uh, where

I thought, this isn't for me.

This isn't humanity.

We weren't designed, or
I wasn't designed mm-hmm.

Uh, to pack into a
little, a little vessel.

Like it was the most efficient, uh, to
not pay for parking, but just to get

on the, on the seat, the light rail.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is
just, uh, this is not for me.

So, uh, we found 20 acres on
the Pemina River, uh, I think

circa oh oh six, I think.

Mm-hmm.

Or somewhere in there.

And, uh, and we bought it with cash
and I'm like, we're retired sister.

So my wife and I was like,
let's raise this baby.

Let's see what raising a baby is like.

So, um, we only had to work,
uh, a couple days a week for

utilities and, and groceries.

So Heather started subbing a bit
and she was flexible and, and like

able to just pick up, uh, odd jobs.

And I renovated, uh, the house
from, from, from scratch.

So it was, it was a shed, but I
was like, I'd be willing to live

in a shed if I could retire 26.

And then, uh, that was like, kidding.

That was 20 years ago.

So lots has changed.

We graduated to a full quarter section.

I picked up some accounting work
and, uh, did a little bit of economic

development in the town closest to our,
our quarter section farm that we live on

now, uh, with this economic development
group just on a voluntary basis.

And they said, well, You know, we'd
like to either, you know, attract new

businesses and then the group said,
well, before we go ahead and try to

attract new businesses to this town of
300 San Gudo Alberta, an hour and a half

northwest of Edmonton, how do we retain
the businesses that are already here?

And so we, we had a piece of
paper and, um, the secretary and

the treasurer and the, you know,
president, and so they're writing

down like, what business do we have?

Uh, and one of them was a
slaughterhouse, and I'm like,

there's a slaughterhouse in Sangudo.

And I was like, yeah, yeah.

So that was 13 years ago.

And, and, um, we, there was a, there's
an old guy in his, uh, early seventies

or late sixties, and, uh, he, it was
down to just him and, and one helper.

Running this place, it looked
like an abandoned bottle depot.

Uh, and I remember I was the guy
who was sort of nominated to go in

there and say, well, how much do
you want for your slaughterhouse?

And he said, why do you wanna buy it?

And I said, maybe, maybe I do.

Perhaps, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, uh, long story longer, we, uh,
created, we, uh, conventional banks

didn't wanna finance the slaughterhouse
for an accountant to run with his, uh,

I made a friend, a neighbor who, uh,
who had a retail retail meat cutting.

They, they had blackout lending
policies on commercial properties

in small towns because Right.

I think that, uh, corporate finance
said, Uh, small towns are the, it's,

we're we're done with small towns.

It's over.

That lifestyle is over,
so we're not gonna land.

It's too much risk.

So we ended up going through the steps
of forming, uh, an investor cooperative

in Sangudo, the first of its kind, a
community, uh, pulling itself up by

its own bootstraps and saying, can
we borrow from local area ranchers to

provide financing and then, and then
keep the service in the community.

So, uh, yeah, it was like, I remember day
one, like, this is your slaughterhouse.

Like, so honey, we bought a zoo and,
and, uh, I, I had grown up hunting, of

course, uh, even living in Edmonton.

We did do hunting.

I think that it was, it, it helped save,
uh, on the feed bill for my brother and I.

We ate, we ate moose growing up in
north, growing up in North Edmonton.

Dad was a big, uh, tri owning hunter.

Yeah, so I really enjoyed the
meat cutting and wrapping.

Uh, once per year, you know, for a
couple weeks he'd be in the bush and a

couple of weekends you'd be cutting up
meat and I thought it was really cool.

So, Uh, seeing the slaughterhouse for the
first time, I thought, this is insane.

So I left my accounting job
right and, uh, I remember the

first kill day, I was so nervous.

I walked into a pipe and
it almost took out my eye.

There was a, there's still a big, big
scar there, but I was walking, uh, on

my little speed walk, like going to
move cattle from one pen to another to

keep the surly old owner, uh, happy.

Mm-hmm.

And I was speed walking and didn't see
this pipe in a, in a a two and three

quarter inch pipe, or two and seven,
eight inch piece of, uh, pipe hit, cut

me in the eye and I kicked my shoes off.

I hit it so hard.

My shoes went out, like off my feet.

I hit the ground.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good, yeah.

Yeah.

That was the first of thousands of
injuries at the slaughterhouse, learning

the business and finding out how not
to shoot yourself in those things.

So funny.

Yeah.

That was 13 years ago now.

Travis Bader: So you'd never, aside from
hunting, you'd never, uh, slaughtered

an animal before, had to kill an animal.

Jeff Senger: That's not,
no, not entirely true.

So I think there was sort of this
gateway livestock drug while I was

working accounting in, in, in the
town or the city of white court.

Uh, after we transitioned to country
living, uh, we bought a quarter section

with a nice, a reasonable house, and
it had all these outbuildings and we

asked the neighbors like, what were,
what are those old buildings for?

Oh, that was a hog barn in the fifties.

And that was the, the guy before
you, the family, before you

had some chickens over there.

So, um, I was working at a company in
white court and the, there was a nice,

a kindly older lady there and she said,
you guys should get some chickens.

You know, if you're gonna do
this farm homestead thing, you

should get a couple laying hands.

So we, that was the gateway drug.

The gateway livestock
was laying hands hens.

Okay.

That's right.

And so we, we knew.

We knew from our experiences in, in, uh,
the Bora Forest that harvested animals,

you could really control the quality
of the meat that we were putting in

your freezer, uh, by the way that you
handled it, the animal that you selected.

It's gender and species.

All of those things mattered.

Uh, how you shot it, how it
died, how you bled it, how you

hung it, how long you hung it.

So I kind of, I was food adjacent.

And then we kind of took the plunge
into livestock and, and the eggs

were better depending on what the,
how the life that the hens ran.

So I encourage anyone who's curious
about how big an impact the way

that the animal is treated and, and
the food is handled, like the qu

affects the quality of the food.

Well, I think, uh, gateway hens,
uh, sort of blew our minds.

Uh, and then really, oh man, yeah.

Um, you, you just, it's not something
kind of when food is served to you

on a styrofoam tray or if you're, you
eat out a lot because you have the

income to do that, uh, which we didn't.

Um, then you don't think twice about it.

It's just sort of this, it's monotonous
and it's something you have to do

three times a day or what, whatever.

Mm-hmm.

More of a social thing
than really invested.

But because we had this land and we
had limited entertainment options,

the chickens were great, and then
we led to goats and milk goats.

Uh, we had a milk cow that we
ended up having three more kids.

Four.

So four daughters grew up,
have grown up here on the farm.

Uh, and we had a milk cow for probably
eight, eight of the last 13 years

that, uh, my wife was milking twice
a day, uh, to have raw, fresh dairy.

Then we had a few pigs
that I killed on farm.

We had, uh, we experimented with a few
beef, uh, we killed some, a bull on farm.

We had, I had a bull escape that
ran through three fences and then

turned up on the neighbors six miles
away, and I had to, had to hunt.

I hunted that bull and I killed them.

And then we cut 'em into four pieces
to get 'em into the back of the stock

trailer to, to bring them to the plant.

So that, so

Travis Bader: those, those bulls
have, uh, thicker skulls too.

They don't, I found, uh,
22 doesn't work like.

Correct.

It does On a cow, on a bull.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I learned in an interesting way.

That's right.

Jeff Senger: Yeah.

That's, that's the story of
my life on the kill floor.

Yeah.

So, right.

Uh, so, so yeah, so I kind of knew
about, you know, butchering our own.

And we had, we had brought some animals
to the provincial slaughterhouse at

Barrhead a couple times to try and
like, promote meat that we were growing

on our farm and getting rid of excess
to, to, to folks, friends in the city.

So we really didn't know what
we were doing, but, uh, but

we knew that we liked it.

We felt passionate about people,
uh, you know, eating better because

we had discovered this secret.

And that was that, uh, the way
an animal handled killed, uh, the

sort of life that it has can make
for more flavorful, richer, more

nutritious, nutritionally dense foods.

So, um, so yeah, I've got a que

Travis Bader: question on that one
because I, I can see how it's handled

and how it's raised and what it's fed.

It's gonna have a long term impact
on the flavor and the quality of the

meat that you're gonna be producing.

And of course, we hear about a nice quick
humane death, and so you're not releasing.

Uh, hormones and adrenaline and
the rest into, into the body.

Is there a marked difference
between a quick death and one

that doesn't go as planned?

Jeff Senger: Uh, yeah, it's appalling.

It's actually kind of
like, really, so, yeah.

Yeah, we're very interested, uh,
because we're like, we weren't,

we didn't grow up in the industry,
so everything was this miracle.

Like, oh, you gotta come and look at this.

Uh, we had a guy bring in a bison that
he had shot, and it ran into a swamp.

Uh, uh, so an on-farm kill.

So this is a domestic bison that
a feller raises lots of bison,

but he had a big old bull.

He didn't want to, he didn't want
to, uh, load into the trailer.

So, uh, he shot it in the head
probably with the, you know, he

misjudged the car, the, the, the
skull plate over the sinuses.

Yeah.

Uh, or, or, you know, was slightly off.

So he shot it, it didn't die,
it ran into a swamp and there it

struggled in the swamp all night.

And this guy tried to get
around it with a machine.

So it struggled all night.

And then eventually he caught up to it and
killed it, like at four in the morning.

And then he hauled it to us and he
said, cut this up and make it burger.

It's going in my freezer.

Cause he, he couldn't have it go to waste.

But there was this, uh, a disgusting,
like a bruise slime between

all of the major muscle groups.

So we seen butcher,
that's pretty standard.

And we couldn't believe the darkness in
the meat, the, the smell of the meat,

not from a rot perspective, but just from
those that that hormone release of this

thing had a horrible struggling death.

And that affected it, like right
through every major muscle.

So it wasn't an injury, it was
just like a, a muscle, like a

Yeah, just a cl a clear liquid
and a separation of the muscle.

Uh, mu the main muscle groups
were separated with a slimy goop

and it smelled, it had a sticky,
tacky, uh, snot to it because that

animal's really, really worked up.

And the only thing that's been similar
is like animals that have come in with,

um, like severe pneumonia or colds.

Okay.

I mean, not colds, but severe
pneumonia or bronchitis.

Yeah.

Uh, they're flemmi.

And sometimes you can get something like
that in the, in the meat where, um, I

mean, it's not snot in the meat, it's
just that the, the muscles are unwell.

Mm-hmm.

They're not as oxygenated
as they should be.

The animal's been hy hy,
you know, uh, it was low.

Oxygen levels have created hypoxia,
and you can have muscle hypoxia.

It's, it's evident inside
the, inside the carcass.

But all of that being
said, very, very rare.

Like we had a couple animals that
didn't die well in the knock box.

Uh, good intentions.

Absolutely.

The knock box.

Yeah, the knock box.

That's, that's where they, they get shot.

So there's an animal handling
and leverage, like an area

that's a barn that's indoors.

Um, and actually one of the
first, uh, things we renovated

about the slaughterhouse, it
was kind of a 1950s style.

And Kevin and I had our asses
handed to us every kill day,

uh, because of square corners.

Um, horse, horse panels, uh, patches and
chains, uh, deep mud in, in the outdoors.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, we said, man, if we're going
to stay alive long enough to, to

make a go of this business, we need
to invest in the animal handling

and the, and the, and the kill box.

Um, so we got a couple of grants.

At the time, there were federal grant
money, uh, available to grant matching.

So if you wanted to upgrade your
animal handling, you could go nuts.

And so we 50, 50, 50 matching.

So we built a covered barn, a heated
cement floor, and we looked at designs

to, I, I read some books about,
uh, animal design and handling.

There was a, a gal in the United States
that was on Oprah called Temple Grandon.

She was an autistic lady who walked
through different federal, uh, commodity

beef handling plants and pointed out
the things that irritated her because

she kind of saw the world like an
animal and, or, I mean, you know, she

said, and, uh, I said, uh, jokingly
that I wanted to build a plant.

That Temple Grand, that Temple
Grande could be humanely know,

like, so Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We wanted to make a, a plant so
humane that she would blow her mind.

And so we went to a genius in the
area called, uh, Don Bamber, who is

a big, uh, elk velvet specialist.

Uh, okay.

5, 5, 10 miles south of San Gudo.

And he says, if you, if I heard you're
looking at building this plant, uh, I

heard that you want to handle different
species, different sizes, all the things

come and look at my elk handling system.

And he had designed it because he
was some sort of artistic genius

in, uh, better than Temple Grand.

Now I'm like, this is better than what
Temple says in, in all of her stuff.

I think that there may have been
a, a, a desire to not make the

multi-billion dollar livestock
industry change much so Right.

Temple Temple's like, they'll
like this if I say how to be more

humane, but not so expensive.

Uh, this was a.

This guy in the elk, uh, is handling,
I mean handling, uh, monthly his

herd of bull elk to saw their antlers
off to make elk velvet tablets.

So that, that, that's the elk, the
domestic elk velvet business in Canada.

Um, okay.

His grow bulls out to grow great big
antlers and then cut their antlers

while they're still in velvet and grind
them up for nutraceutical benefits.

And

Travis Bader: what, what are
the benefits you get from that?

Or is, is that,

Jeff Senger: Uh, mic.

Mic.

Yeah.

Are they gas station boner pills, right?

No, absolutely not.

They're legitimate sources of
phosphorous, calcium, magnesium, uh,

increases blood flow, uh, which is
just snicker snicker, but Right, right.

So many, many medicinal and
traditional medicinal benefits.

So that's all fine.

And I get it.

Like, and uh, I don's like, you
should get on these, they just

improve your overall health.

So like, I, I, yeah,

Travis Bader: so that's a real thing.

I always, I always thought it was okay.

Increases blood flow, cuz you know, you
always hear the, the jokes about that and

yeah, different cultures, cardiovascular,

Jeff Senger: et cetera.

So there's a lot of export market.

So, So he was figuring out, Don and
his family were figuring out a way

to build an agricultural product in
Alberta that hadn't been commodified by

big money or big multinational money.

And that wasn't growing beef.

And it remains growing.

Beef is is a difficult business,
um, because there's a couple

of big players that kind of
monopolize and push everyone's

small, medium, and large around.

Um, so, so anyway, it, yeah.

So he figured out a, a unique,
uh, product, but he had

to handle a unique animal.

And the most recently domesticated
North American animal are these elk.

And so they can jump straight
into 10 feet, straight up.

That's the thing, you know, uh,
from a standstill because they're

powerful, amazing wild animals, and
they, they haven't been bred for

hundreds or even thousands of years,
like cattle have to grow quick.

So they still have a brain
between their ears, uh, cattle.

It's imagine if you br if you br just,
uh, low iq, low iq, uh, bodybuilders

to more low IQ bodybuilders.

So passive and complacent
bodybuilders that are mm-hmm.

Uh, to for a thousand years.

Right.

Uh, cow cows aren't, don't have an
awareness the way that definitely elk

do after having killed, uh, thousands
of animals at the slaughterhouse

over 13 years of owning it.

Um, some animals.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Uh, Razorback boars, uh, recently
imported from Siberia for hunting

ranches and for, uh, novelty meat or
exotic meat markets, uh, in Alberta.

And, and, and, you know, um, have
escaped into the wild and then

have created this bounty have hunt.

I've hunted them on bounty and
collected bounty on wild bores.

Uh, but they will look
you right in the eye.

Domestic pigs don't look you in the eye.

Uh, but wild bores will look you right
in the eye and they'll challenge you.

They'll square off and face.

They'll face off cuz they've been.

They've been, uh, prey recently enough
in their evolutionary history that

they have a memory about to be afraid
and to think about what's going on.

Think about their mortality of
smidge interesting, uh, domestic pigs

and domestic cattle, not so much.

Pigs are definitely smarter.

Uh, but ca an opportu.

I've, I've seen that.

Yeah.

And opp opportunistic and a and
a bit like appalling, like orks

from Toks Lord of the Rings.

Like they, they really got it.

If they could characterize hu
like humanoid characteristics

and u using Anyway, uh, well

Travis Bader: I got, so I, I got a
question about the, um, I, I don't

know if I should tell this story,
but I'm gonna tell it anyways.

Uh, I started doing the basic
firearm safety course in Canada

while I was in high school.

I was about 1994 when I started that.

Graduated in 96.

And somewhere in my late teens,
maybe early twenties, got a

fellow who says, Hey, I'd like to.

I'd like to take the course.

I said, well, we've got a
course coming up this weekend.

You're in luck.

He says, perfect.

Cause I need a gun for
the following weekend.

I said, well, it doesn't work like that.

Mandatory minimum waiting
periods and all the rest, right.

Anyways, he says, okay,
let me figure this out.

Calls back, says, I got it.

I'll take the course, I'll bring
a few of my friends through

so you can see what I'm like.

You can see my associates and you see
I'm a good person and you can lend me one

of your firearms for the next weekend.

I'm like, no, sorry.

It doesn't work like that.

I said, what do you need
a firearm for so badly?

He says, well, my
brother's coming in town.

Okay, this doesn't sound good.

Right?

Yeah.

Well, turns out, uh, they had started
a small farm and his brother was coming

in town and previously they just had
goats and they could slaughter them

themselves, but they had just purchased
two cows and they wanted to be able

to humanly slaughter these cows and.

He says, well, can you come on
my farm and shoot my cows for me?

I said, well, I've
never shot a cow before.

Right.

You know, I've, but sure.

I guess.

Okay.

You know, out of all the options
here, this is gonna be one that

can assist you and help you out
and the least illegal, right?

Yes.

Yep.

Least illegal.

That's a good way of putting it.

That's good.

Yeah.

Um, so I go onto his property
and it was a small property.

It was a small farm.

Probably shouldn't say where it was.

Mm-hmm.

It's not around anymore.

And, uh, Filipino community,
I was six foot, six white guy

towering over everybody else, and
they'd already butchered a goat.

They had it on the ground and I
thought they were cooking the hair

off of it with a, uh, roofing torch.

But yeah.

Uh, they said they're, they're cooking it.

They're just gonna cook it like that.

And it was so, okay.

Interesting.

Right.

Never eaten goat like that before.

And I said, okay, well, let's
see if we can get these cows.

And I got a little, uh, martini
action, uh, BSA cadet 22.

It's aperture sites.

And, and, uh, these cows
still had their horns.

They weren't chopped and lied off
and, and, uh, kind of wildish animals

and kept running after these fellows.

And, and so finally said, okay.

Okay.

If we can't get them to be still,
let's just calm 'em down and I'll,

I, I think I know where to shoot it.

I mean, at, at my cabin we had a cow skull
hanging on the wall that had been shot by

some rancher years and years ago and I, I
knew where that 22 hole was, but the skull

is very different from the cow's head.

Yeah.

When it's

Jeff Senger: got hair on it.

Yeah.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Anyways, so I get it lined up in Snap
Merr thing goes running off, ah, I'm

feeling kind of bad right and get
back up to it and mo closest I could

get to it is about 50 yards or so.

Snap merr running off.

Did this a few times till I finally
figured out where that sweet spot was.

Second cow went down, like it
was on roller skate, so it was

dead before it hit the ground
because I knew where to shoot it.

But I mean, the first one I was feeling
really bad for this thing because I was

expecting a quick humane death and I
thought I knew where I was shooting it.

I guess my question is gonna
be twofold, number one.

Um, how much different.

Would that cow taste the meat on that one?

That took a while to find the
sweet spot to the one that went

down, like was on roller skates.

And if we were to apply that to, let's
say, the hunting world, how much different

is a quick humane harvest of a, uh,
of an ungulate, let's say, gonna taste

than maybe one that's been gut shot?

Shot and he had to track it down for maybe
it ends up dying an hour later, let's say.

Jeff Senger: Yeah.

Oh, that's a great, uh, that's a
great scenario and a really good, uh,

buildup and question and a fun story.

Uh, not a fun story for the cow, but
a learning story about a young man

figuring out how to, so you have your
morals intact and you have your, you

know, your ethics intact, and sometimes
things don't go the way that you plant.

And that happens to experi me
with 13 years on the kill floor.

Um, sometimes I guess wrong or at the
last moment, even with a knock box.

Um, they'll, they'll turn their
head suddenly and you know,

like, everything's going fine.

Mm-hmm.

We really worked hard in building a calm.

Serene environment for them
to move up into the knock box.

But, um, you have some, some animals
that, uh, they were just born to

hate and there's some that, that
are, are man hunters and are, and

really want to fight everything.

So it, it gets 'em hard to
hard, you know, hard to, to

hold them, have them hold still.

Uh, they're huge animals.

So, uh, the correct caliber
is important in the correct

placement is very important also.

Um, and my answer is kind of uninteresting
in that, uh, not a huge difference,

uh, not a huge difference from, from
the one to like, you know, if it, if

it runs around and it's 10 minutes
later and you finally hit the, like,

press the button and then powers down,
um, that makes less of a difference.

So, I don't know that your
palate could discern a difference

in taste between the two.

There might be a little more
toughness in the animal that ran.

The more it runs the, the more
toughness that you'll have.

Lactic, lactic acid and, and,
and adrenaline in, in the meat.

But it wouldn't be like, oh man, this
is, this is totally off where you

would have meat that was totally off.

And this like, it's
kind of more surprising.

Kevin and I talked about this,
uh, in from the wild episodes with

our wild game harvesting a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Um, would be how quickly after
it's dead that it gets bled and how

completely you bleed the animal.

Really.

So, yeah, absolutely.

So this even applies to fish, which is,
which it was a huge, uh, I mean, for us,

you know, for us it was a huge big deal.

People that, that are obsessive compulsive
about the, the handling of their meat.

Uh, we sat around a ice fishing
tent saying, well, why wouldn't,

like, did your dad bleed fish?

No.

Did your dad dad bleed fish?

We talked to some people on the
West coast and they're like, yeah,

for commercial salmon fishery,
they always bleed the fish.

Uh, right, or they're flash frozen
and, but, but, uh, but I think

they're, anyway, certain, certain
boats bleed them and certain don't.

But, uh, we started bleeding our jack,
our pike, our northern pike here that are

sometimes, uh, not great tasting fish, uh,
and slew tasting and definitely dumping

the blott of them, uh, just like you
would with cattle or pigs or whatever.

It makes a, a significant
improvement in shelf life.

Uh, it takes the funkiness or a
dan out of the meat, uh, improved

shelf life and, and, and is an
overall better quality product.

Less, less minerally taste, less both.

Bull taste.

So a male animal, uh, a male animal
in Rotch, uh, whether it's a deer or

a bovine, uh, has, is way more heavily
built, uh, more connective tissue in

its muscle, in its hide in its guts,
pulling at the guts out of an old bull.

Um, I have to hang from its kidneys
to, to, to yank the, the kidneys out,

whereas a young heifer or a steer, so a
young female animal or a steer would be

a, a male animal born with its testicles
clipped, uh, mm-hmm two days after birth.

Uh, those animals are built very, they're,
they're really easy to pull apart.

They're tender all the way through
light hides, uh, less connective

tissue and light, but something in
the field that all hunters should

do is to, to bleed the animal.

And it was funny because I'd, you know,
doing two kill days a week, I'm on the

kill floor all the time, and then Kevin
and I zip away, uh, hunting buddy, and

I zip away and do a hunting adventure,
uh, this time with archery tackle.

Is this Costo any you're talking about?

This is Kevin, Kevin Coston from the
Wild creator, filmmaker extraordinaire.

Travis Bader: I love Kevin.

He's amazing.

Jeff Senger: Yeah.

We spent way too much time together
over eight years of filming.

We went on 10 or 12 hunting trips for
three days every year for eight years.

Um, so it was my second home.

My second, uh, spouse was, is Kevin Cowan.

Yeah.

I took a step back a little
bit building the, the retail,

uh, meat shop in Edmonton.

And he's got just an
amazing, he's continuing.

He, he hasn't missed a beat,
uh, 10 episodes a year.

Um, so amazing outdoors man.

But, but we talked about bleeding
fish and, um, we're on this hunt and

we get an arrow into a mule deer,
and it doesn't die immediately.

And we track it down, chase
it down, and then get another

air into it and it's dead.

And by, like I was in a auto
mode, I ran up to the animal and

grabbed it and then, and bled it.

The, the quick way, which was like
from, you know, from ear to ear.

Yeah.

And then I, I bled it the business way.

Uh, that's reaching your knife along the
trachea, down into the collarbones and

snrp righting the, uh, cardiac aorta.

Uh, and he had no more blood pressure.

The blood had left through the wound, you
know, but Kev, Kevin's dad, who's in his

sixties, he's like, what the hell is that?

What is your friend
doing to that poor deer?

And then I was like, oh, I
was just bleeding it like I,

I lapsed into kill floor mode.

Like we have to bleed this animal.

Um, right.

Kevin laughed because it's
become practice for us.

Uh, if the wound, if you shoot in the
heart and lungs, it's gonna bleed, uh,

with a rifle, they tend to bleed out.

They're filled with, uh, red jelly.

Um, so they do bleed out in the
cavity and it's a, it's a really

quick death, but, uh mm-hmm.

If for any reason, uh, you don't open
a humongous wound channel, uh, if you

want to maintain the integrity of the
meat, then bleed the animal as soon as

ideally while the heart is still beating.

And that sounds vulgar to even hunters.

Generally, that's tough to get
up to an animal that you've shot.

Um, you're usually at some kind of range
or you have to mitigate some sorts of

obstacles and get through trees or,
or rough terrain to get to an animal.

But ideally on the kill floor,
and this isn't, I'm didn't invent

this, this is very much part of
the craft and the art of butcher.

That's that use, uh, the, the heart's
beating for two to two to five

minutes after, uh, it's brain dead.

And that's the pump that, that,
that the grand mal seizures and the,

and the heart pumping is what dumps
all the blood out onto the floor.

And it, it, it just makes a better quality

Travis Bader: meat.

So somebody has, let's say a neck
shot or now I'm never been a fan of

head shots, but let's say somebody
did a headshot on an animal, um, and

they're able to get over to quickly.

They better be bleeding that, that
wild game if they want to have

the integrity of the meat intact.

Abs.

Yeah.

Jeff Senger: That was the,
the condition there is.

Yeah.

A lot of hunters give zero shits about
the integrity of the meat or it's

all gonna be turned into pepperoni.

I, I ain't never done that before anyway.

And it's so spice, it's so sugared
and, and salted and spiced.

Uh, you don't really get any essence of
the game animal any, or mixed with so

much pork that it doesn't really matter.

But for, for, for people that want to
eat, say a, a whitetail steak and you want

to reduce gaminess, you want to reduce
any kind of, Uh, readiness or reduce

readiness or reduce anything that's foul
or unpleasant and definitely bleeding it.

I mean, obviously shooting it in
a quick kill is everyone's goal.

Mm-hmm.

But I think that matters, that matters,
makes less difference to meet quality

than if you, uh, if you remember to
bleed it or if just the nature of the

wound channel and through heart and
lungs, that's a, pretty much every drop

of blood is out of the animal before
you get to it, even especially a pastor.

Travis Bader: So, so just, you mentioned
there about Gaminess and that's been

the ongoing debate with hunters for,
for eons of what causes gaminess.

Do you have an idea, given your profession
and the amount of time that you've spent

with meat, that you'd probably have a
decent idea of where that gaminess comes

Jeff Senger: from?

Yeah.

I really, really know exactly
where Gaminess comes from.

Listen to this commercial just after
this commercial break, you know,

that's a little sizzle reel there.

But yeah, the scissor reel is man.

Um, so, uh, hunters.

Overage wild game meat.

Uh, they're doing the right thing
kind of for the wrong reasons.

So they, okay.

They have an inkling that they
go to a steakhouse that they love

and they pay a hundred dollars
for a delicious, uh, beef steak.

And they say, wow, that was 28
aged, or something like that.

And so they say, well, I killed my dad's.

Like, I killed the bull moose.

I'm gonna hang it in my garage.

It's reasonably cool in there.

And this is, that's a, uh, yeah, yeah.

Spoiler alert.

Yeah.

Uh, it's reasonably cool in my garage.

I'm gonna hang it for a month and
then that bowl will be tender.

Mm-hmm.

Now, dry aging is a com
It's, it's a nuancey thing.

It's not that complex.

There's two or three things to remember.

One is that if the animal has sufficient
fat cover, then the animal hanging, uh,

enzymatic activity makes the muscles
more tender through enzymatic rotting.

And that's a vulgar term.

Yeah.

But it's enzymatic, enzymatic
breakdown of the, uh, fibrous

muscle fiber inside the animal.

Uh, it breaks down with time
when it hangs on the rail at

two to four degrees Celsius.

Um, Now if that animal is covered in fat,
that is, it's in a wetsuit, like a seal.

Mm-hmm.

Or a person, a diving suit.

It has fat on every covered surface.

Like we talk about 95 to 98%
coverage on a full finished fat beef.

Uh, whereas a bull moose would
have two to 6% fat coverage.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the, the, the, the animal without
fat coverage like it's, is losing

moisture kind of at a faster rate,
depending on temperature and the,

and the humidity inside your cooler.

It's losing moisture at a rate
that is stripping the meat quality

characteristics away from, it's getting
more tender, but it's getting drier.

Right.

It's, it's concentrating that flavor
by losing water out of your moose hip.

Uh, it's losing water concentrating
flavor of a bull moose,

which is often the gaminess.

Mm-hmm.

And it's getting more tender,
but it's losing water.

So you're trading one for the other.

You should just cut it as soon
as it's rigor mortis and cold.

So cut it.

Game animal that's not covered
in fat once immediately.

Once it's cold.

Uh, that's a way to reduce gaminess.

So bleed it.

Interesting.

And then hang it for, uh, I mean
overnight at the, at, you know, in

the negative temperatures here in
Alberta, uh, pretty easy to get.

And I would, I would cut it once
it's cold, uh, through to the bone.

So in a day or two, you're
not getting anything.

Awesome.

If you're hanging it for
two weeks, you're, you're

getting, except for gaminess.

So again, you're trading
tenderness for juiciness.

So if I have a big old fat pig, they, in
the traditional way, we would scald pigs.

That's, you just deha them
and they keep their hide on.

And then a pig has a jacket
of fat under every on.

Oh, covering every joint
is now fat and skin.

When you, when you just
scald and scrape them.

Um, we've aged some pigs.

It's a great success because it's
maintaining every speck of water inside

that waxy jacket that he's wearing.

Mm-hmm.

And then, then, then enzymatic
activity is making it more tender.

So if you want an an in, this is another
tip for an insane meat experience.

Uh, go to a traditional artisanal butcher
that is able to bring inside the pork and

see if you can get some dry-aged pork, uh,
because they can go an extremely long time

on the rail, uh, drying in a cooler, not
drying in a cooler, they're staying wet

on the inside, but they're enzymatically
breaking down so they're more tender.

And then, then that, that also
applies to very, very fat beef.

And we kill everything from lean, lean,
beef and wild game on, on the wind end,

end of the spectrum, or elk or bi domestic
elk, domestic bison, um, all the way

to Wagyu cross beef that have sometimes
three or four inches of back fat, rib

fat, and a hundred percent coverage
of, of maybe three quarters to one inch

of fat over their entire hip section.

They're shanks are fat.

They're so fat that they
have fat in their eyelids.

If they're, if you sh yeah.

You know it's fat.

You know it's fat when it hits the ground.

You and Obama, so fat, when that
beef hits, it hits the ground and

its shoulders so fat that it heads
its head, doesn't touch the floor.

Then you're like, this one's gonna,
this one's gonna grade prime.

We can guess this.

Yeah.

Anyway, so those guys have, so
those, those units, those animals

have so much fat on them that
they're not losing any water.

So we can put a hundred days on the
cooler in them and they'll still be just

as ju or not just as juicy, but they'll
be, uh, maybe three or 4% water loss.

Because you're in that waxy jacket of fat.

If you wanted to age your bull,
your fricking 48 inch bull moose,

12 year old bull moose, uh, uh, to
get some of that, uh, tenderizing,

I would primal the muscle group.

So I would butcher the animal, pull the,
the muscle group that you want to age

off and then cover it in a dry age bag.

They sell those commercial,
I don't think they're cheap.

Uh, so it's kind of like a semi-permeable
membrane that you can buy it.

They're, they're promoted
in, in hunting stores.

Um, so it's kind of like a, a breathable
bladder and you wet it down and you,

you stick that joint in that bag, uh,
that reduces the total of water loss.

So kind of acts as a semi-permeable
membrane, just like fat does.

But the poor man's version of that is go
to your butcher shop and buy a bunch of

pork ld or rendered beef towel, right,
and then, then you can take that joint

and dip it into the fat and let it cool
and dip it into the fat and let it cool

and dip it into the fat and let it cool.

So you build up a wax candle.

On the outside of your moose tenderloin.

And then you can let it hang out for
your, your 28 days or your 50 days.

And it's not gonna lose water, but
it will increase in tenderness.

So you're not gonna get more and more
concentrated flavor by it dumping water.

Um, but you, it is gonna
become more tender.

So that is a way of taking
like a, a really tough old bowl

and, and making the joints more
useful for grilling a bull moose.

I've never met that animal.

Yeah, there's no animal that you
can't eat when you're hungry enough.

But also if you have a couple tools in
the tool shed and learn the definition of

the word, if you're a hunter, Uh, learn
the definition of the word braze, and

I just solved years of horrible meals.

If you just learn, you can solve
the years of, of your family

hating your hunting addiction.

Right.

Uh, if you learned how to properly braze.

So it's a technique of cooking.

I mean, everybody does it in
the slow cooker, so mm-hmm.

A can of Campbell soup and the slow
cooker is like over your roasting joint

is kind of a poor man's braze, so mm-hmm.

Your mom was doing it, or, you
know, someone, someone in your

family was doing that mm-hmm.

Since you were a little kid.

Yeah.

But that braze can make a crappy
joint, a less desirable, tougher

joint, like a hip, a hip, uh, inside
or outside round an eye of, round

off a game animal into something that
just s smushes apart with your thumbs.

And you can, you can make tacos off it.

You can make it really, really nice.

And then one advanced concept,
uh, from the braze in a slow

cooker is replace the braze liquid
with just fat, like animal fat.

And that's conf right.

Right, right.

C o n f i t.

It's a French term.

It's a French method, but if you
can get a bunch of lard from a

butcher, and I wouldn't use game fat
because it has different qualities,

it's quite a bit more waxy.

Mm-hmm.

But pork fat would be the number one.

And, and, and second best fat would
probably be beef tall from Oh Jesus.

Yeah.

If you had poultry fat,
you're in your business.

But yeah.

Any kind of rendered fat, not, not seed
oil barf, but animal fat and it's heated

to like 170 f like it's a hot bath
and you put a joint and submerge it.

You can salt it, you can rub
it and then put your joint

in that, in that confi bath.

Um, so it just slow cooking
over low heat, but in fat.

And that just keeps all the
moisture inside that roast.

And you can get it
after four to six hours.

You can, you can tame the most
wild and rugged wild animal.

Beast.

Like a male bear was probably
the toughest and rubies.

Mm-hmm.

Meat that I ever had.

An old black bear.

Yeah.

Uh, and you can make it something
that will pull apart or break apart

and you can eat it like on a sandwich
without pulling all your teeth out.

Travis Bader: So my wife's a
chef by trade, uh, worked under

Hawksworth Uhto for over a year and
then, uh, got a Red seal through

Fairmont, um, hotel Vancouver.

And she was extremely jealous
that I was getting to be able

to speak to you on this podcast.

Oh wow.

So, uh, I'll make sure to have
to, uh, get her to listen to

a few of these points here.

Oh, for sure.

But, um, you know, you brought something
up and he basically answered the

question, which I knew I had to ask
anyways, cuz it's been an ongoing debate

that I've had with a friend of mine.

And he talks about aging beef or aging
meat, is what he's talking about.

And certain animals, he says, you don't
age 'em because they're too small.

And the aging and the softness, the
breakdown comes from, uh, the weight

of the animal kind of tearing apart.

And I've always said it's an enzyme thing.

Is there much truth to, can I turn
around after this podcast and tell my

friend that I was right and he was wrong?

Or is there some truth to the weight
of the animal actually being a, yeah.

A part of the, uh, the aging process.

Jeff Senger: Yeah.

The, and this is, that's actually getting
really nuancey, but it's, it's, it's

so exciting to hear that people in the
world outside of, uh, proper butchery

outside of these channels or I, I love
that Silvercore and the projects that

you guys are working on are bringing in
people from maybe, you know, it's a Venn

diagram where the circles intersect.

So there's what you talk about,
your wife is beautiful, like a chef

in the kitchen or chef at home.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, kind of coalescing with you and,
and your, your hunting hobby, uh,

can mean that you've had some of
the best, uh, food experiences from

animals that you've harvested yourself.

Not just the memory of the animal,
but also the treatment of it.

And you control kind of all the steps.

So those are Michelin star, like Michelin
star doesn't even come close to touching

the, the meals that I'm sure you've had.

Um, and then your, your, like
the butcher, butcher curious

and butcher adjacency is Yes.

There, there.

So, When an animal is hung, uh,
in the, in the side, the, the

weight of the animal is stretching.

All the fibers, Riga, morta
sets in, so they become stiff.

And now you can no long, no longer
pliable joints, and people would argue

that there is stretching of the fiber
while the animal is still stretchy.

And then Riga morta stiffens it up.

So it's hard like a rock.

So you can swing a side of beef round,
if you were immensely strong, you'd

swing it around and it, it's, it's,
it's rigid like a lollipop kind of.

Yeah.

Um, but that initial stretching
in Riga mortis is, is part of the

lengthening and, and eh, to some extent
softening of those muscle fibers.

So that's part of the process, but, okay.

I did read some super nerds talk
about hanging lambs by the HB bone

instead of by the heel or the back
of the, the back of the knees.

So all animals are on a spreader bar
between the backs of the knees and the

whole way to the animal hanging basically
off the knee joints, and then they're

hanging head down knee joints split.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but some super nerds and
new theories in hanging lambs.

And it, it's, it should work for beef too,
is that if you hang the animal, let it

riga mortis with a hook in its HB bone.

Then the front leg is just lulled forward.

Mm-hmm.

And it, it's, it's no longer under
stretch cuz you're picking it up by

a, by the joint in the hip that's,
uh, that's lower than that hip.

So all of your rounds
are able to not stretch.

And then, and then Riga mortis happens
with the am the, the fiber knot at,

at sort of this maximum stretch.

And that's supposed to,
scientifically papers have proven it.

Um, that lamb, uh, hip muscles, the
hip, the hip, uh, meat cuts are more

tender when you hang 'em by the H bone.

There are problems in our, yeah, our
cooler isn't designed to, like, there's

a little bit of geometry problems
to do that with pigs or with lambs.

Uh, it's, it's easier because that leg
hanging down kind of eats up too much

cooler space to, to do it with beef.

And with beef you're dealing
with maybe 500 pounds aside.

So generally, if the HB bone
is cut exactly down the middle

of the HB bone can hold it.

But we didn't want to gamble with beef.

Um, uh, the, the hook coming through
the HB bone or the HB bone breaking

under the way to the beef and then
having it kills kill somebody.

So we haven't done it with beef.

Um, we did a trial with lamb and the,
it looked funny, and there's the lake

and the, the, the lamb was butter
tender, but I, I don't eat enough lamb.

And we didn't do it with
enough samples to say.

Uh, what do you call it?

Um, not measurable objectively,
or si we couldn't say that it was

more tender than this other lamb.

There's just too many other variables
that you would have to control.

But if you had two identical lambs or
two identical fawns, uh, whitetail,

fawns that you shot out of the same,
uh, batch, you, you might be able to

hang one one way and hang one of the,
and there, there should be a difference

because science says there is interesting.

So the cord is still out for
my lived experience in that.

And I don't think Kevin or I, Kevin
Kowan, or I, or any of my hunting group

has actually hung a deer by the H bone
yet to see if that relaxed leg during

the process of rigor mortis would
mean that the muscle fibers aren't

as, aren't as stretched and aren't as.

So enzymatic activity is what leads to
your softening and, and breakdown of,

of tenderness of the muscle, um, and
the weight of the animal does affect it.

But, but this new study is saying
that, um, having it stretched to the

max, like a lot of weight vertical
on every muscle fiber in the, in the

thing, uh, long longitudinally along
the length from the knee to the.

The knee to the neck, probably
not the most, the best way

to hang it to be tender.

Travis Bader: Interesting.

The, the other thing I've seen, so
I did my first hunt out of country.

I was in, uh, Molokai, did a access deer
hunt with my, my wife and my son, and,

excuse me, my, my daughter stayed behind.

She was, uh, in voca but wasn't,
didn't want to come on the hunt.

Um, and in these warmer climates, I'm
told they'll get the meat and they'll

immediately put it on, on ice in
like a, uh, a cooler with a bunch of

crust crushed ice, which I've never
done here in, in British Columbia.

And I've always figured if I throw
it into water and crushed ice

like that, it's going to, uh, uh,
adversely ef affect the flavor of it.

But apparently it's a, I was told
anyways, in the warmer weather

climates is a very common thing
that they'll bleed it like that.

Um, what are your thoughts on, on

Jeff Senger: that?

Um, in our, in North American food
systems all, uh, poultry, or 99%

of poultry are, uh, ice water bath.

So, okay.

It's not, it's not something strange and
not something you haven't eaten before.

It would be, uh, poultry is
gutted, uh, plucked, uh, gutted,

and then, uh, uh, cold water bath.

So, okay.

Um, it immediately brings that high risk
food temperature down, uh, because of

the, any contamination of poultry, uh,
would be salmonella, which is dangerous.

So they want to get the
temperature down really quickly.

They wanna wash the birds.

Um, there could, it can be
a mild, uh, saltwater brine,

uh, saltwater brine on birds.

Uh, the birds will pick up water.

They will absorb water, and so
you're adding, you're adding

weight to the finished bird.

And, uh, giant commodity
agriculture producers love that.

Um, you can get birds in North America
that are air dried or air air chilled, and

that would be, you need way more cooler
space and spacing between the birds.

You can't pack 'em as dense as
you could just into an ice bath.

So it's a little bit economy of scale.

Like it's, it's cheaper for a
gigantic bird processor to put 'em

in ice water rather than hang them
on any kind of a rail, so, right.

Um, now it is interesting.

It does have an effect on, uh, uh, you
know, food, uh, quality characteristics

that, uh, you have a flabbier skin on a
bird that's been in water, and so the same

would apply to your deer, uh, or Yeah.

To a fallow deer or, or
a wild game of any kind.

Mm-hmm.

Um, we like the, the, the scab that forms
on a, on an animal that's hung in air.

Right.

Uh, that becomes kind of a, a, a
barrier from things getting in, like

insects or, uh, mold, uh, bacteria.

Mm-hmm.

And that scab usually comes off the
animal when you're butchering it.

So there's a real clear delineation.

A millimeter or two of bark or scab comes
off the wild game animal, and then you're

just into beautiful red or burgundy meat.

Um, if something's been, uh, in a cold
water bath, like I, I'm not knocking the

culture, I think it, that works just fine.

And probably they're used to
eating an animal, like it's way

better that it's chilled down.

Uh, even if it's not chilled down, hanging
it in a, in, you know, on a, on a gambler

or something, it's chilled down quickly.

And I think that is the most important
thing, um, to preserve food, uh, from

being rotted or from, from going to waste.

So that's great.

Um, but it would offer a bit of a
weird texture because it could, it

could be drinking, it could be soaking
up water instead of losing water and

making that hard husk on the outside.

So you might approach it
a little bit differently.

Butchering.

You wouldn't have to take off a scab and
you'd, you, you'd probably have lovely

red meat, uh, on the outside still.

Uh, or you may choose to remove this,
the, the, the outer layer, the outer

two or three millimeters, um, because
it was in contact with, with that water.

And if you had concerns about
contamination in the water, like a tiny

fleck of something in the water leaves
or, uh, pine needles or dirt or, or, uh,

contamination viscera or whatever could,
could be then on spread out throughout

the carcass instead of just on the spot.

So, so there's pros and cons, but I
think the main thing is the spirit

is right and that's just getting that
thing cold as quickly as you can.

Uh, because heat can cause, uh, bone
ro right in the, in the heaviest muscle

groups, particularly for big animals,
uh, they can take a really long time and

ambient temperatures to cool down, uh,
especially around the spine in the heavy,

in the shoulders of heavy, big game like
moose, uh, around the hip and hip bones.

Um, that's probably the most likely
way to lose meat or make yourself

really sick is that green bone ro uh,
right around the hip joints and in

the should of big game if they haven't
cooled down properly or quickly enough.

Um, uh, that's why there's a bit of an
obsession about saw alls in camp for

moose or deer to split 'em down the
spine, just like at the ABA avatar.

Um, that that's not easy to do either.

The hand sawing sucks.

Uh, we've seen chain chainsaw.

Uh, no, everything's moving

Travis Bader: up and
down as you're using it.

Jeff Senger: It's a mess.

Yeah.

Um, but it, that, that's the whole point.

A similar, I did, uh, a couple of
game butchery workshops where I had

some alpacas from a neighbor stand
in and I killed, I killed three

alpacas, one at a time in the middle
of February and an Alberta winter.

Mm-hmm.

In front of six or eight hunters.

And I showed them several different, uh,
field dressing and, and, and butchering

techniques that they could do in the
field from, um, from just gutting it,

leaving the hide on and hauling it on
a sledge, um, down to quartering it.

And then the third one was
actually pulling all the primal

muscle groups off and leaving the
ribs in the spine, in the field.

So in different, different scenarios,
like how far back you are, whether you're

backpacking or have access to, uh, um,
quad strikes and, uh, and trucks, like

how close you're to a road mm-hmm.

Would determine what and the temperature.

Right.

So we had all these, it was a
great conversation and it was

really a fun course to teach.

Um, but Cub Bank a good one.

Yeah.

It's, there's something to think about.

About, oh, so a quick way anyway to get,
to get to, to, to prevent green rod.

Here's some more value for
your sweet, sweet listeners.

My, my family of outdoor enthusiasts
and, and, uh, is that, um, if you go

behind the, the shoulder blade on,
on even a, a buck deer, you can, you

can cut under the shoulder blade and
kind of drop the, the front arms.

Um, to get cold air circulating
under the shoulder blades and cool

that front quarter a lot quicker
without splitting it down the,

down the scent or down the spine.

Like you would, if you were, like, you
didn't have a battery operated, saw all.

If you didn't have a hand saw and someone
with, you know, 45 minutes to kill, um,

you can just drop those shoulder blades.

Yeah.

And they kind of hang down like
chicken wings, but it allows cold air.

Yeah.

So you're just kind of breaking up that
huge muscle mass so that cold air can get

it around it and, and chill the animal.

Um, so it's something to think about.

And we've do done that in the field
as well when we're in a pinch or the

weather's a bit too warm, uh, we know
we've gotta spend the night and it's

gonna be plus 10 overnight or something.

Um, we'll, we'll, we'll just find
the, find the, the seam under the

shoulder blade, drop those chicken
wings open and make sure that the HB

bones split so that the hip, the hips
got lots of air to circulate around,

like through the, through the colon
cavity, like through the HB bone.

Uh, there's lots of air movement.

Yeah.

So

Travis Bader: I've got a Garmin
watch and they make this little

thing called the Garmin temp to E
M P E and I put that on my back.

So on my pack, sorry.

So I can get a hopefully accurate
temperature reading that's not

as, uh, right on my wrist here.

What would I be looking at as sort
of a danger zone for temperature

if, let's say I'm on a early season
hunt and it's a bit warmer out.

Jeff Senger: Oh man.

Like, uh, over six degrees
Celsius, you're in the day,

like over four degrees Celsius.

You have two hours, the food should
be exposed no more than two hours to

anything warmer than four degrees Celsius.

And so for hunting, that
is a challenge, you know?

So, and, and like Kevin
and I have been manic.

Yeah, we've been manic.

Like that's where the pressure,
the pressure to get that animal,

uh, field dressed skinned.

Uh, whacked into smaller
pieces, carried out, hauled out.

You, you really want to minimize
the total amount of temperature

that that meat spends at, uh, at, at
greater than four degrees Celsius.

So, so I, yeah, I mean, we get panicky,
you know, if it's four to six and,

and it doesn't call for an over
overnight low below zero, um, then

you're like, geez, I should, mm-hmm.

Someone's, someone's driving out tonight.

When an animal goes
down, if you care about.

Uh, the, the, the meat quality.

Uh, and you want your family to enjoy
it and eat it and have the best quality

experience they can from that animal.

So, uh, you know, an older mm-hmm.

Male animal is gonna be gaming to
begin with, and then you shoot it

way back in the brush, and then
it's a six hour extract mm-hmm.

Uh, of a 700 pound animal.

Mm-hmm.

And it's gonna be an unpleasant
eating experience all the way through.

And then definitely the, the way to
mitigate that hunters, since time

immemorial has been to cook the shit out
of, like, literally you're cooking the

bacteria out of it right in, in the meat.

So, um, overcooking it is
desirable because, I mean, I,

growing up, I think I got an iron
gut from eating moose that had.

Had taken too long to re recover at two.

Like we had, we had chronic irritable,
we thought we had irritable bowel

syndrome, but it was just through eating
meat that was probably very close to,

very close to the boundary of spoiled.

Right.

As a consistent, two big boys
eating a lot of big steaks.

And the steaks were like, this one tastes
a little like gar, like the garbage dump.

And dad's like, shut, shut up.

You know?

Uh, if it tastes like a garbage
dump, you gotta try in farming,

fermenting and, and, um, kimchi
and, um, sauerkraut at the farm.

Yeah.

Uh, there's some great books written
on fermenting and it says, trust

your nose and trust your palate.

If it tastes like it's bad, it's bad.

Okay.

Travis Bader: Yeah.

Yeah.

Who's that guy who does
all that fermenting in, uh,

not in the Nordic country.

It's not Noma, uh, Zepi.

Yeah, Zepi.

That's what I'm thinking of.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

Is, is he still deep into that
whole fermenting business?

Jeff Senger: Uh, yeah.

Yeah.

I think the, the chefs that go deep
go really deep and they stay there.

So there's a lot.

Ofpi.

All right.

Renny.

Rozee.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, those who love it.

Love it a lot.

I mean, you discover, I think when
you're tired of coloring with the

eight crown crayons that mm-hmm.

I think that fermentation and exploring
traditional cultural food traditions,

uh, and deep traditions, cheese making,
uh, dry cured fermented meats, uh, and,

and, and fermented fruits and vegetables.

You can go, you're now you're
calling with the Lorenn 36 pack

or whatever back in the eighties.

You're like, wow, they have gold.

They have gold in here.

This looks like, yeah, I remember.

Travis Bader: Yeah, I remember that.

That was always the, uh, yeah.

Yeah.

The cool kit on the block if you had

Jeff Senger: those.

Well, fermentation is the, is the, you
know, the, the pencil crown kit that

we would all kill for back in the,
in the 19 and eighties or whatever.

Uh, as, as is the cooking techniques
mentioned earlier that if you

can get just one technique under
your belt that isn't grilling.

Hmm.

Even really get, really
get keen on pan Fry.

I went through a whole pan frying stage.

I just wanted to sort of make
an excellent steak, uh, in pan

Fry, splashing with butter.

And it's way easier than you think,
but it's not something you can really

read a book about or set a watch to.

It's kind of something that's an
intuitive, kind of like barbecuing,

like there is the science and there
are all of those, uh, temperature, um,

Travis Bader: senses.

Yeah.

And the finger

Jeff Senger: thing and Yeah.

Yeah.

And the finger thing on your th Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that, the, John Schneider told
me about that, and, uh, I thought it

was funny and he's, it's not wrong.

Uh, probably the probes are pretty
decent for a new cook to not screw

it up and overcook particularly
wild game because it's lean.

You want to keep, you want to,
it's rare to medium, rare is, is

best served probably all game.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, on the rare side, not on the
well done side, or else it's a little

bit like shoe leather because of
a lack of marbling, a lack of fat.

Because these animals work.

Yeah.

They work for a living.

They have to stay, they're not
generally really, really fat.

Travis Bader: What are some of
the most common mistakes you're

seeing hunters make when they're
out in the field with their meat?

Is that not bleeding it?

If it's, uh, if it's not
a heart and lung shot.

No.

Just getting dirt and

Jeff Senger: everything.

No.

Travis Bader, uh, poor shot
placement is appalling.

Just, ah, dude.

It's, it's nauseating.

I think this scenario is something
like Nude Hunter goes to Cabela's, uh,

Cabela's has the new Whizbang Magnum.

Uh, they're all written about, like
that's what's on the magazine covers.

Yep.

That's, that's what's on every freaking,
uh, podcast they're talking about.

Do you know, does the super extra,
super huge magnum, like, does it deliver

three feet per second more of velocity?

Yeah.

Like what's the killing power and
don't go into the field ill-equipped,

but so many new hunters are going
into the field with calibers that

they cannot shoot effectively.

Mm-hmm.

And an old man called Chuck Hawks,
uh, wrote a whole bunch of weird Yes.

Ancient on the internet.

He was early to the internet
probably in the nineties.

He started writing
[e-mail] and.

He's kind of a minimalist and I kind
of built some of my Jedi philosophy

around hunting and that was that Chuck
Hawks is the Yoda that sort of helped

keep me on the path of what Canadian
hunting, non militaristic hunting mm-hmm.

Is about.

Mm-hmm.

So there's an American style hunting
where it's militar gi Jeff with the

face paint and Gilly suit, uh, the,
uh, assault rifle style rifles that

are shaped like man killing rifles.

Sure.

And then there's, there's the Chuck Hawks
philosophy that's like, uh, indigenous

subsistence hunters that wear red
plaid jackets or their street clothes

and they learn the techniques to hunt
where you don't have to dress up in a

goofy, uh, outfit that I just shake my
head at almost a lot of the costume.

Yeah.

If you need a costume to go hunting, Uh,
you probably haven't spent enough time

learning how to hunt or reading, read
books about hunting, and you can spend

your money on books and ammo practice
with your gun, uh, rather than buying

the silly, uh, the silly camouflage
because you can find out if you like

it before you invest in that stuff.

And that's, that's beautiful.

Yeah.

It, it has a time and a place the
time, and a place when, when you're the

black belt level hunter and you need
to, you need to creep, you know, that

make that final 10, 10 yard approach,
then probably the, the Gilly suit is

gonna do better than the, than the, um,
standard Cabela's, uh, cam camouflage.

But for almost the, the, the first
90% of all hunting you can get done.

By taking a 1970s rifle, uh, practicing
with it and going out in your street close

to find a deer and, and, and ping a deer.

And then see, did I like that experience?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, was I able to like, uh, achieve
my goals with meat recovery?

Uh, how did it make me feel?

And like this is something
gonna do more of.

But, but I think that, uh, the salesman
at the gun desk wants to make a sale.

He's well served if he sells a junior
hunter the wrong gun because there's

no return east, no take backies.

Mm-hmm.

So if I, if I sell you, if I'm a gun
guy and I a gun counter a person,

and I sell a new hunter, uh, 3 38
win mag, and he, and say, oh yeah.

Oh, the kid doesn't know what to
ask, and they're like, oh, I wanna

shoot everything under the sun.

Well, it's true.

Th through 3 38 win,
meg would kill a moose.

But even me as an avid hunter,
I'm still only hunting moose

one 10th of the ti of the, the
number of times I'm shooting deer.

Mm-hmm.

That's right.

And so, so if you're only
buying one rifle, that's one

question that I would ask.

If you only have a one gun
cabinet, what's the ideal, uh,

caliber in Alberta to hunt with?

And that would be different
from in British Columbia.

If you can kind of afford to swing a
two or three gun cabinet, you can have

a small, medium, and large caliber,
but the more you invest in your gun

cabinet, The more time you need to spend
at a fricking range, and the more you

need to spend on ammunition to know
what the gun likes, what to feed it.

Yeah.

And then what shoots accurately
and what is a pleasure for you to

shoot because the, I mean, in the
butcher trade, so I'm rounding out

the answer to your question by, yeah.

Travis Bader: minutes.

You're bringing up so many great points.

Yeah,

Jeff Senger: I love this.

Um, but, but Chuck Hawk said it, and like
other great minds in hunting have said

it also that the most lethal thing in
determining lethality is shot placement.

So if you can get a 22 shell
into a moose's up his snout and

into his brain, that is a, a way
better outcome than shooting a a

a 3 38 lap, uh, through his ass.

And he pronounce it right too.

Good for you.

Oh, there you go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Uh, yeah, I've been
looking at such a rifle.

Yeah.

I've been looking at such a
long, long rage rifle, so yeah.

I'm like, Mr.

Hypocrite here.

But no, I, I, I, I like
it for precision shooting.

I, I think that also making
a delineation between.

Hey, young folks, there's precision
shooting and there's also mm-hmm.

Hunting and subsistence hunting.

There's trophy hunting and
then subsistence hunting.

So those little nuancey things our
brains aren't particularly good at.

As chi, as hairless.

Chimpanzees, we kind of like to, to bend
things into black and white, so Yes.

Uh, and questions like, what's the
best cut of meat on the, on the animal

is like, that's too black and white.

It depends on what you like.

Yeah.

What's the best caliber?

You see those on, uh, web
searches all, all the time.

It's like, there is no best caliber,
it's the best caliber for you.

But I find because I'm a fire hose of
butchery knowledge and, and a bit of

hunting knowledge, people kind of zone out
the attention span of average youngsters

is lo like I have kids and, uh, they,
you're like, oh God, he's on another rant.

Like, give it a break then.

But, uh, but there's a lot to think about
and, and, and, and, and I think that to

make the most sales in the shortest period
of time at the gun counter, at this, at

the mega store, uh, they don't really want
to, they don't care about what you weigh.

What your flinch resistance is and what
your experience planking might have been.

And they don't want, they
don't need to be that patient.

They just wanna make a sale.

Uh, and they'll have, so we've, we've
handled deer that have been shot, you

know, 12 times with an Uber Magnum,
and then we've gotta charge $145 or

something, is our flat rate for whitetail.

And the hunter comes in, in
inevitably the hunter that emptied

a magazine on this poor thing.

And he, he comes or he comes in and he,
and we, we hand them a, a a 10 pound box.

And he's like, what'd you do with my deer?

And, and you'll say, $145 for this.

10 pounds.

And he's like, what did you
do with the rest of my dear?

And you're like, dude, that
was Shrapnel broken bone lead.

It was gravel, gravel tree branches were
stuck at like, what were you shooting

through to kill this poor thing?

Like, my God, spend
some time at the range.

I'm not paying you.

And then he storms out.

Like, we could make a really,
oh, we could make cartoons.

Yeah, you stole my deer.

And you're like, buddy, come on.

This is, we do not steal, but we would
definitely not steal this piece of

garbage because it was mostly, it had
more weight by lead and copper than

it had any, any real, uh, food value.

So it's tough and that happens a lot.

I think just people not putting in the
time to practice, they think that they

can, like a set of golf clubs on the go,
it's way easier to buy the Wizbang Club.

Yeah.

Oh, I spent more on this club or,
or car drivers in, yeah, in, in the

pothole, uh, center of, of Canada.

Oh look, a Lamborghini, my kid says,
and I'm like, why would you buy

Lamborghini to drive on Edmonton's?

Pothole roads like, anyway,
it's kind of like that.

Can I buy myself a cool thing
to make me a better hunter?

And the answer, man, you can't.

Yeah, you cannot.

And I've tried, like, I've tried, like
there's, there's gotta be some sort of

a, some sort of a gadget that I need.

And I would say almost all the time
gadgets disappoint me and just working

wind, like working on your technique and
practicing is, is what, uh, achieves more

successful hunts and less bad experiences.

Like it was traumatizing as a young
guy to watch a deer get wounded with

in your hunting party and then get,
you know, get the call or whatever.

Yet we got one that's, it didn't go down
and we've gotta spend the next 24 hours

looking like blood tracking this thing.

Yeah.

So shot placement is
everything, uh, and prac.

And that becomes make your
rifle an extension of your

arm and now you're a hunter.

Uh, and that, that comes
right, right up your alley.

Like take another course.

Totally.

When you've done taking a course.

Yeah.

If you don't know how to
approach it, ask the internet.

Ask the internet for qualified, uh,
teachers, instructors, take a course and

spend more, more money on your courses
and more money in your ammo than on

your gun because you can buy a 1950s.

A fricking World War II gun can shoot more
accurately and be more deadly, uh, than

most hunters will ever in their career.

Be able to shoot like so the gun
can out shoot me a 3 0 3 Brit can

out shoot me and can be made to be
made more a accurate than my, my

shaky, uh, hands will ever shoot.

See, it's a super lethal tax driver.

Yes.

If you practice with it,

Travis Bader: you've
nailed it on the head man.

You brought Yeah.

Love it.

A a lot of really great
points up in there.

And you know the old saying,
beware the man with one gun.

Right.

Which is now probably beware
the person with one gun.

Correct.

Yep.

Right.

Um, because they know how to use it.

And you're, you're talking
about camouflage now.

I had Guy Kramer on here.

He does camouflage design for hundreds
of different armies around the world.

And you know, we talking
about, uh, plaid with the, the

original disbursement pattern.

I was always raised that the best
camouflage you can wear is be still.

Yep.

So it's, uh, movement's
gonna be the number one thing

that gives you away as well.

Animals, all of a sudden you'll
hear something, you'll see

something move, and that's bang,
that's what's gonna give 'em away.

It's not their coloring or
how well camouflage they are.

It's gonna be that movement
that gives 'em away.

Man,

Jeff Senger: I love that topic too, the
nuances in that, that, you're right.

There's a, there's a, there's
a, there's a co there are

companies designing camouflage
for humans, hunting other humans.

Right.

And don't make the mistake of thinking
that when you're hunting a sheep,

it's got a brain like a human.

It's like our, our visual acuity is
pathetic compared to a big horn sheet.

Right.

So the big horn sheep, by the time you,
if, if your barrier to entry was the

$1,300, uh, I don't want to pick a brand.

I don't really care.

I don't even know the brands.

Sure.

But sure.

A $1,300 outfit or costume that
you think that you, you're told by

the salesman that you need to have
this costume to sneak up on sheep.

Don't do that.

And, and so, oh, I can't do it this year.

You know what?

Life is short?

You put on your golf shirt or put on
your frigging khaki pants from the

ga and, and get your thrift store
t-shirt or your hunter conservationist

t-shirt that they sent you in the mail.

Yeah, sure.

And just get on your shoes and go out.

You don't need the, a
solo $589 hunting boots.

That's probably where I would spend my
money if I was spending 'em on clothes.

Yeah.

The interface between you and the
nature, the terrain are your feet.

If, if you're doing it any other
way, you're probably doing it wrong.

And then oftentimes, I mean, kawan
uh, read some was inspired by some

indigenous techniques while we were bow
hunting and he would kick his shoes off.

So that's really funny too.

The quietest you can walk in nature Cool.

Is in, is an effing muck.

Yeah.

Or so sock feet.

And you get a lot of thistles in a
short period of time in your feet.

But yes.

Yes.

If he was pulling up, he's pulling up on
a, on a feeding black bear on a cut line.

Yeah.

And, uh, he didn't wanna snap any twigs
and his, he had some really nice, really

nice boots, but they would snap, you
couldn't feel anything through the

bottom, through the soles of your feet.

So if you wanna shorten that distance,
then probably barefoot or, uh, you know,

like, like hide or leather, mlux mucks.

Yeah.

Or socks, heavy socks.

He, he burned through the
socks, uh, in no time.

I would say they were,
they're garbage socks.

But yeah, the final stock is often done
for bow hunters in sock sock footed.

So the $589 shoes that I I, that I
invested in once I really liked on

the, on the hard scrabble in mountain
hunting, um, but, but weren't even

applicable, applicable across most
of the hunting that I do, which is

white tails and, and black bears.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, because you get a tag for
three to five deer every year.

And, and two, two bears with, with
a, with a two season hunt in Alberta

Spring and, and, and in the fall.

So.

So, um,

Travis Bader: Yeah, I know.

You know, the, the big heavy
calibers, you're gonna have more

noise, you're gonna have more recoil.

And that's the two most offensive
things that a firearm's gonna produce.

And second, you start flinching,
watch out, and then you got the

adrenaline Russian when you're hunting
and you've been waiting forever and

all of a sudden all this money and
time and effort that you put in to

find your animal, and there it is.

And it's only gonna be
here for a little bit.

And the mind games that come up
with it, if you could eliminate the

concern about where that round is
gonna land because you've practiced

enough and you are comfortable with
the firearm, you're much more likely

to have a successful harvest and hunt.

Yeah.

Jeff Senger: Rather than the alternative,
which is an absolute heartbreak.

Like I, uh, wounded a moose when I was
17 years old with a 3 0 8 on a shot

that I shouldn't have taken way too far.

Uh, I misjudged the range.

It was a snowy trail and it was like, How
nature can sometimes do that you like,

that was way further than I thought.

So Uhhuh, I was reaching too far with an
inadequate rifle because I hadn't read

enough about terminal, uh, ballistics.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I lost sleep for not just the, not
just that night, uh, but the, you know,

and then I, and I sweat my nuts off the
whole next day in waist deep snow trying

to, trying to pick up, pick up blood.

Like it was a miserable amount of
work to do honor to this majestic

king of the forest that I wounded.

Uh, he, he laid down and made a little ice
bed, a little ice, uh, bed where he slept

and then he healed up and walked off.

He wasn't gonna have a fun
next couple of months when the

wolves No, uh, tore 'em apart.

And I felt so guilty that it w that
I wish I could go back and undo that.

And I had, I carry that guilt around for
your whole life just by not being prepared

and sort of, Uh, but this was a 3 0 8
though, was, it was a hand-me-down gun,

so the gun was capable of killing a moose.

But my inadequacy in estimating range is
something I have to carry around forever.

And I wouldn't wish that on any young
hunter because it could turn you

off the sport entirely and actually
put a stink on, on the sport.

Your perception of the sport.

Well, that, that's what must what
everyone must do because everyone

just go, goes out and later on
today, I want to have a dead moose.

And it's like, man time at the range.

Uh, time on courses and time reading
about, uh, ballistics is, is is

better spent than than time like,
um, uh, shopping for the, for,

you know, time spent shopping.

But I think that, yeah, funding has
kind of, it's kind of been degraded

to a, a little bit too much shopping
and not a, not enough time spent

with knowledgeable, not knowledgeable
folks that either are part of your

family or, or building that community.

And that's why I think that I was drawn
to you and to Silvercore because man,

we, we talked about it, uh, before, uh,
we'd gone live or, or live recording.

That, that is so cool that you in, in
your niche and your community and your

province, you decided I can really add
value if we can help educate, hunter,

curious or like outdoor curious folks.

Sure.

Yeah.

Uh, that didn't have the privilege
of having someone, a member of

the family, uh, that, that, that
had built that tradition as,

as part of a family tradition.

Yeah.

Um, so you, your Silver Corps has, I
would argue, has, has avoided wounding

more animals than, than, than any
Cabelas or, uh, or BassPro ever has.

Travis Bader: Well, and even just
by having these conversations right

now, people are learning from your
experience and what you've been

carrying with yourself from that, uh,
incorrect distance estimation and the

shot placement and, and they're logging
these things in the back of their

mind thinking, okay, hold on a second.

Here's some tips I can use to get on out.

And it's absolutely free.

So this level of accessible
mentorship, which is something that

we really pride ourself on is, is so
invaluable to building our community.

Jeff Senger: Yeah, I love it.

I wrote that down.

The accessible, uh,
mentorship like catchphrase.

And I think it's just, it's just genius.

And thank, thank you for technology.

Thank you for learning the technology
to be, to be able to deliver

this, but it's inexpensive to do.

And you get to sit around a campfire
with a sober at this point, Jeff

Singer, not a, not a drunken hunter.

Um, sometimes there's
some, there's some whiskey.

Sometimes.

Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes
it's been known to happen.

Yeah.

And I like whiskey out of
camp, just to be clear.

Yeah.

Like, it's, it's not,
it's not the funnest.

And we watched people, uh,
in, in, in the family, in the

community, go down to alcohol.

And alcoholism isn't, it doesn't mix
very well, but if you're having a social

beverage, th these conversations I'm
saying are only accessible a lot of

times around the dinner table or around
the campfire, uh, where you start BSing.

And I think thanks to the technology
and, and, and the investment into, into

Silvercore and just the investment of
your time really to build the podcast

and making that accessible, then, uh,
I, I really do think that you're saving.

Uh, untold tortures, the anguish
of the soul of the young person who

goes out and wounds a deer and can't
find it and, and, and just, and

wants to rethink their entire life.

Uh, and they, they, they, they, they
go, you know, into deep veganism

after that horrible event or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

And then also, yeah.

Yeah.

And, uh, for the person and then
also the horrific end, not laughing,

the horrific end for the animal.

Right.

Like with his, with his jaw shot off
because, uh, because the guy didn't,

or the, the, the shooter didn't know
where to, where to place the crossers,

how to adjust for wind or, or couldn't
get 10 yards closer because they, they

just never heard Travis badder talk
about kicking his shoes off in the

last 10 yards or something like that.

So, sure.

Yeah.

Shared experience is so, so important.

Travis Bader: So, is there
anything else we should be?

I, I've got, honestly,
I've, I, I can hold 'em up.

I got so many different notes and
questions, but I'm also conscious of the

time and I'm thinking maybe, uh, maybe
we should continue a conversation in the

future and involve the community as well.

See if there's other questions
and things that come up.

But is there anything else that
we should be talking about before

we kinda look at wrapping this up?

Jeff Senger: No, I mean, I, I think
that's a great idea, a multi-form.

I, I watched some of your podcasts
before and I think they're great where

you have, uh, uh, um, questions come
in, uh, you know, you know, a viewer,

I guess we call 'em viewer or listener.

Sure, yeah.

Calls in with call, calls in with
questions or, or they, they, they ask

their questions, uh, uh, uh, prior to
taping, and then we just answer some

questions like, yeah, I would love to
know what is, uh, what the average, you

know, new hunter, your average viewer,
uh, what's their burning question?

They want to ask kind of an old crusty
guy, but that, that has harvested

quite a few, quite a few animals.

Um, so.

And then to put to, I think that's
unimportant, that's important too, is

like, know who you're getting advice from.

Mm-hmm.

I think there are a lot of people that
would offer advice that actually haven't

done a lot of hunting, but they're kind
of, they're basing their lives on being,

um, there's an, there's the influencer
class folks that love to influence, but

so they, they talk the talk and they sound
real salesy, but they haven't done a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so, and so just to put
it, this isn't a brag, I think

probably 10 or 12 moose I've killed
probably 60 to 95 deer in mm-hmm.

Since hunting since I was five.

Uh, probably 15 or 20 black bears.

And then, I don't know,
uh, geese and ducks.

Countless geese.

Ducks and gross, I guess
like in the hundreds.

But, but so, so like, that's great.

I'm not a guide, not an outfitter.

Uh, nothing significantly of,
uh, like trophy size animals.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I'm not a trophy hunter,
but I did mount a big deer.

Um, uh, that was like 170 a meal.

Deer 170 inch class year.

Mm-hmm.

So not a trophy hunter, but I've worked,
worked with and gone hunting with

guys that pass animals steady because
they're looking for the next biggest.

So like I know that weird fancy, that
sort of new, that little subset segment

of, of hunters that'll say only if it's
bigger than the one I already have.

And I think that's amazing
discipline actually.

I, I like to pull the trigger, I
like to pull the trigger and do the

butchery, uh, to put meat in the freezer.

So we have a variety of proteins to eat,
uh, and more than, uh, antlers on the

wall because I, we, we just couldn't
afford to taxidermy, you know, everything.

Uh, and it's a more patient person
than me to, to shoot something

that's just on, on bigness.

Um, so anyway, that, that's just,
we're kind of putting it out there

that people who have hunted are
useful to get information on hunting.

People have won.

Uh, gong Bang competitions that is
precision shooters that are, they're a

award-winning Chuck Norris's out there.

Yeah.

That are so good and knowledgeable about,
uh, about precision shooting that I love

to listen to those folks, uh, if they've
sort, not just their, not just because

they're influencers or, or their, their,
their verbal fire hoses, the, like myself.

Um, but, but guys that really think
a lot about get, you know, like

about closing those, closing those
distances on the paper at 400 yard or

at competition yards thousand yards.

That's fascinating to me.

Um, even if I don't, uh, even if
it's not a, uh, a pursuit that I

wish to, to, to, to, to chase, uh,
their tips and tricks can make you

a better short distance hunter.

Uh, and also the archery world, man, us,
us flirting with or dipping our little

pinky pose in, into compound archery.

Mm-hmm.

Ha When the sea, the arch, when rifles
opened up, uh, Kevin and I could just.

We could just walk into a, a
cut block and pick an animal and

then walk up to it and shoot it.

Because we had spent so much time
trying to get, trying to get within

like a lethal range of 40 yards of
bull moose and, and or, and or deer.

Yeah.

Uh, and, and then so, so the techniques
and the skills that we picked up, sort

of just from the archery craft, we got
really keen during rifle season and had a

lot of, uh, short distance humane kills.

And that was like we
achieved some success.

Uh, we felt really good about ourselves.

So, you know, interested in knowing,

Travis Bader: sorry, go ahead.

You, you bring up a good point and
one thing that you talked about, let's

say, let's say trophy hunting and
there's negative connotations that can

be associated with, I'm doing my air
brackets, trophy hunting, or maybe a

better way to call that is selective
hunting, because you're still using the

animal, you're using every part of it.

Um, for peop, for some people
there's an ego side of it.

They gotta have the biggest and
the best or whatever it might be.

But what I've seen in people, which
I think is kind of a neat phenomena,

Is they see an animal on day one.

They don't want to take that animal
on day one because they enjoy the

process of hunting and everything.

They enjoy being outside the camaraderie,
the sitting around the campfire, the

all the learning you do in nature.

And maybe they go home skunk
cuz that's the only animal

they see for the entire time.

They're, that they're out there, but
they're willing to pass up on that

animal because it's not just about
the kill or the, let's say the meat.

It's more about the holistic experience
that they're, they're getting outta

this and they want to see that extended.

So that's, yeah, it's just
sort of another side to that.

And I'm gonna do the air
bracket's, maybe selective hunting.

Jeff Senger: Yeah, no, I agree totally
with, with the, our experience also.

Yeah.

That, that, that, um, I think that's
a clear point or an important point

to drive home is that, uh, our
enjoyment doesn't come from the kill.

I mean, you can be proud of a harvest
and you can be pr like pat yourself

on the back for a job well done.

Mm-hmm.

And also supplying your food
and or providing for your, your,

your protein for the next, uh,
month or the next year, whatever.

That's all good.

But yeah, I think the greatest
feeling of success coming is from

hanging out with really great friends.

Um, immersing in nature, the
sorts of things that happen

only on, on, on hunting trips.

Like watching the sun come up and
the sun go down, or the forest, the

forest go quiet when it accepts you.

Yes.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, it's a, it's a, all these little
miracles, the little, the, the,

the minor miracles that you get to
experience by just being in nature

and sort of becoming one with it as,
as a predator or predator curious.

Mm-hmm.

If you just pass, if you
pass up opportunities.

Um, but yeah, that's, that's a ton of fun.

So, Yeah, I look forward to, uh, more
chats and I look forward to sort of

connecting with, uh, younger, younger
hunters or, or, or hunters with more

experience, but different experiences,
uh, through this platform and others

through social media and things, uh, to
try and, uh, you know, share experiences

to increase success and just increase that
feeling of camaraderie, uh, electronically

as, as well as in the field.

Travis Bader: Jeff, I absolutely
love the conversation.

Thank you so much for being
on the Silvercore Podcast.

Jeff Senger: Thank you
for including me, Travis.

This is a great thing you're doing here.