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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Beckman: [00:01:00] [00:02:00] the one and only Jon Anderson. It is such an honor to have you joining me on some future day. Jon, how are you?
Jon Anderson: Very good. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be home. We just finished a tour of, I think it was five weeks and, uh, I got home. I got into my studio and I can't figure out how to do anything with it. It's like my memory's gone. And, uh, but I'm okay now.
Marc Beckman: Jon, where is, is home in California? I remember reading at some point that you're in a very special part, you live in a very special part of California. Am
Jon Anderson: Yeah, it's Central [00:03:00] California. Maybe just south of San Luis Obispo and north of, uh, San, Santa Barbara. generally speaking, this, this area that I, I live is, is up in the hills. Away from the noisy, crazy village of Arroyo Grande.
Marc Beckman: Uh, so it's really magical, as you are, my friend.
Jon Anderson: aren't we all?
Marc Beckman: I wanted to start with a quotation from the author Thomas Pynchon. Um, he, he wrote a book called Gravity's Rainbow, and he wrote, All the animals, the plants, the minerals, even other kinds of men, are being broken and reassembled every day, To preserve an elite few who are the loudest to theorize on freedom, but the least free of all.
You got that?
Jon Anderson: Yeah,
Marc Beckman: [00:04:00] My question to you is, why is freedom important? You've inspired me so much in your words about freedom. And I'm curious, why is freedom such an important concept, Jon?
Jon Anderson: first met my spiritual teacher, which is now, uh, 30 some years ago, she said to me, and your name is Jon? I said, yes, yes, thank you. And she said, God is free. And a light went on in my head and I thought, yes, of course, thank you, just what I needed to know. And from then on, I just started laughing with her and I was so proud to meet someone who knew the truth.
Marc Beckman: So to get a little deeper into it, when are you, Jon Anderson, most free.
Jon Anderson: the time. I have no, of anything else [00:05:00] over the past two years. Over the last years, I've discovered that we are here for one reason alone, and that is to find the divine within. And the other part of the conundrum is that we all have to put up with each other. I'm making this up now, but in the new album, I would sing a lot about the idea that Earth Mother is the Garden of Eden still, if we want It's as though we've forgotten why we're here is to create the Garden of Eden.
I was driving up in New York State just a week or so ago, marveling at the amount of trees that are on this highway going up north past so many towns and villages and cities and stuff. But there's so many trees, it's unbelievable the amount of vegetation around. That I didn't [00:06:00] even know existed. It was just magic.
And then when I come home, of course, I'm surrounded by trees and flowers and fairies and various other things as well. The Earth Mother is still alive and we have to decide when we are going to start to take care of Mother Earth. That's the whole deal now.
Marc Beckman: I agree, I agree, but I feel like some people can't connect with any of that. Individual freedom and liberty, um, they can't really spread their wings and connect in the way that you do. It seems like you're very connected with what's here, let's say, in the Garden of Eden and what's beyond. And you make these connections through your beautiful lyrics, your beautiful music.
Do you feel like there's a technique that perhaps our audience that you can show our audience in finding that [00:07:00] freedom.
Jon Anderson: Gosh, uh, yes, how long have we got? I think
Marc Beckman: with you, Jon.
Jon Anderson: the, the, the deal is that all I know is that I wake up and I'm very excited. I'm very grateful for the day and the sun rising and the fact that Bob Marley is still being played all over the world. And everybody knows about three little birds that sang to him a beautiful song, Don't worry, be happy, and so on and so on, you know.
Everything's gonna be alright, everything's gonna be alright. And I, having lived in the Caribbean for quite a long time, I realized There is something magical about the islands of Jamaica and Barbados and everywhere you go around there, because there's a certain element of freedom, which is [00:08:00] part of their experience of life, even though it comes from way, way, way back when they were taken out of Africa and planted all over Africa.
America, not that they wanted to actually do that or be that, but they were planted here to recreate the Garden of Eden. The Garden of Eden is here inside, you know, it's not how many flowers have you got, but the idea, the conscious idea is That music has this amazing ability to wake you up and make you feel comfortable.
Whether it's Stravinsky going crazy on the Rites of Spring or the Beatles singing every one of their songs. It's kind of, actually it's funny that I heard a very classic Rolling Stones song yesterday as I was driving around. It was, um, it was a very, um, something about You can't always get what you want. And it's [00:09:00] actually 12 minutes long.
Marc Beckman: It's, it's incredible, but that next lyric that comes, but if you try sometimes you just might find you get what you need. But is that necessarily a good thing?
Jon Anderson: No, it's good. No, it's
Marc Beckman: need and it's a bad thing?
Jon Anderson: no, you always get what you need, whether it's good or bad. You know, you, you, you, you tend to chase how I want this. I want that. And I need this and I need that. And then all of a sudden you get this, you get that. So many words, you know, uh, I'm surrounded by music as you can see.
And I've been like this now for, gosh, uh, 40 years, surrounded by little instruments, a guitar or something, anything to make a sound and make a song or something like that.
Marc Beckman: Jon, one musician who you turned me on to is Nusrat Fatah Ali Khan, and [00:10:00] uses, in Must Must, he uses, or the English translation is Divine Ecstasy and Intoxication, and you used the word Divine, Divinity, just a few minutes ago, and I'm wondering, like, In your music, or in Western music in general, I love the fact that we're talking about, we're breaking down Bob Marley, the Beatles, and the Stones, but in your music in particular, is there a certain type of divinity that comes through, and if so, what would you put your finger on?
Like, how, how can you, um, unlock Nussrott's divinity and must must to like what Jon Anderson has done? It's so, like what you've done is so special.
Jon Anderson: well I, I, first of all, Marc, I don't think about it. I just do it. And I sit back a [00:11:00] week later and wonder what was I thinking about that time and then I, oh yeah, that's what I was thinking now. But then now I'm going on to another song and I, and I've got, you know, I've been working on songs for the past. to me, it's just an a natural event. If I'm gonna write a song, I'm gonna sing about something, but more or less, I won't positively think of something and then write it down. I would, I will mimic it. Like, uh, one of the songs on the new album is, um, build Me a River. It's called, uh, I think it's called Building.
Build me an ocean, da da da da da. It's a lovely song. And the idea is, it was to build me a river so I can sail down this river of souls. We're all connected, like the ocean and so on. So, I think maybe I [00:12:00] sang it three times and then said, well, the second one was a better lyric and I'll write it down and.
And say, well, that worked and that's a free form, not so much, um, what do I want to write about now? Don't, don't think about like that.
Marc Beckman: But you know what's interesting, Jon, about your music? Um, historically, whether it's with YES or on your solo work also, your corpus of work, for me, as a fan, has always been very important from start to finish. I always feel like if I'm going to have a complete emotional connection with the words that you share.
And the experience that you provide, it's critical for me to take in the entire album from start to finish. I feel like you're telling a story in all of these instances with it, with a beginning and an end. And I wonder if society today [00:13:00] is missing out on that type of an experience. Like the music experience today is more transactional.
I listened to your new music. Your, your team shared it with me before today. It's fantastic. But I really enjoyed. I listened to it from start to finish already thousands of times in prep for today, but I feel like even if you're, if you're creating the songs and putting them in, they work together. Am I, am I right?
And do you think society, if, if I'm right, do you think society is missing out because they no longer consume music from start to finish? The
Jon Anderson: I'm sure, I'm sure everybody does, but in their own way. It's not a question of like, did you see that movie or did you see that, did you catch that piece of music by Wozniak, uh, New World Symphony, uh, no. But if you listen to it, you go, oh yeah, I know that. It's like embedded in our consciousness. Everything that we do, and when I'm finishing an [00:14:00] album, actually marvelled at the fact that I'm finishing the album, and that it's stuck together pretty well, okay, and, uh, especially the new album, just knowing that there was never a time where I was doubting the idea we, me and the Band Geeks would make an album, uh, when I first spoke to Richie, the bass player, about going on tour together.
So, um, yeah. There was never a doubt in my mind we were going to go on tour. But he said, What did you say? Are you sure you're Jon Anderson? I said, Yes, Richie. I got your phone number from my friend, uh, Jon Amick, who sent me your video, Heart of the Sunrise, and
Marc Beckman: YouTube video,
Jon Anderson: And I freaked out. I said, What the heck are these guys?
They're so brilliant. They are majestic with Yes music. They're playing it like it should be played, in my mind.
Marc Beckman: agree.
Jon Anderson: So when I called him, I said, let's go on tour. He said, you're crazy. I said, no, it's true. [00:15:00] Hence the name of the album, True.
Marc Beckman: Ah, that's beautiful. Especially in a, in a time period where we need More truth, um, whether it's good or bad, I feel like humans and society in general can thrive more by, you know, looking at, at the truth head on and embracing it. And, you know, maybe from truth, it can help discourse and, uh, connection with people.
Maybe getting back to the concept of respect, Jon?
Jon Anderson: Yeah, well, first of all, be, be, be like I am, very grateful for who I am at this moment in time, shall we say, and I'm very, very respectful of it and grateful for it and thankful for it and at time amazed that I'm still here, uh, having died once, uh, 20 years ago and, uh, my wife saved my life and, uh, that was what happened and I went through it and then You know, [00:16:00] um, three months later, I, I, I got myself back together again, and, uh, was told that, uh, the band Yes are going to carry on with another singer, and I thought, yeah, I can actually do my solo show now.
And that's what I did. Me and Jane went on tour of the world with me and a guitar, which is behind me here, and I'd sing songs and tell stories on stage. What a, what a release from what people might say. And you got fired from Yes? I said. Yeah, but hey, look what I'm doing now, know,
Marc Beckman: well, it's interesting, Jon, I was curious about, um, you, as a creative, you must have a certain, going back to the theme of freedom, you must experience a lot of creative liberty when you're not playing with yes, and, and even in collaborating with other artists, like, you know, Friends of Mr. Cairo, to me, With that's probably something that hasn't doesn't come up every day, but the work you did with with [00:17:00] Vangelis is just incredible and you must feel like when you're not Although that happened with you.
I remember in 2008 you you almost died and then all of this This happened in the background, but, you know, whenever you're playing with another artist, another part of Jon blooms, it blossoms, and it gives more to the universe and more to your fan base. Do you feel like those connections and collaborations have helped you grow creatively, spiritually, and individually?
Jon Anderson: for sure. When I met Jean Luc Ponty, who I admired from afar, uh, I bumped into somebody who knew him, who had his phone number, he lived in Paris, and we got together and all of a sudden he was my brother. I hadn't seen him forever, ever, and we, we, we performed and made an album, went on tour for a year.
And it was, it was pure magic on every level. And, uh, you just, uh, [00:18:00] same, same with the Band Geeks. Um, when I did 1000 hands, it was -like, um, out of the blue, the, the producer, Michael Franklin, who had heard some of the songs from the mountain. recordings that we've done up in Big Bear and said, uh, just call me up and said, do you want to finish the album?
And I said, which album? And he said, well, I don't know what it was called. I think it was called, um, it was, it was actually called something you talk about when, when you're, um, in the North of England, Lot, meaning a lot of us, Us Lot. It was going to be called Us Lot. And I said, yeah, I think the tapes are in the garage.
So, he said, can you get them out and send them to me? I live in, uh, in, uh, Florida. And I said, yeah, I can send them to you. And he actually put them in an oven, baked them, because you could ruin them [00:19:00] if you don't bake the tapes, 24 tracks. And, uh, he played them and sent them to me and they sounded so good. I said, wow, it's going to be an album.
And it's an album that I started 20 years earlier. And, uh And when Thousand Hands came out, I was so proud of the fact that it sounded so perfect -and so many great musicians performed on it. I said, nothing can go wrong with this. And of course, everything went wrong. It's a brilliant album, but it never sold because the record company didn't know how to sell it or something.
And then we went on tour together, which was, uh Extremely chaotic.
Marc Beckman: Why, how, how so? Why was it chaotic?
Jon Anderson: Well, because it was very un orderly managed by different people, uh, who I thought knew what they were doing, and, uh, but the main thing was that we had a great time on stage, and that was the [00:20:00] important thing, that we performed well, we all got on very well as a group of musicians, and, uh, but generally speaking, the album did not Open up the doors on every level that you thought it was going to do.
You always make something and think, oh, this will change my life. And it did change my life, but not for the better, but it just made everything go over here. Uh, whereas we are with, uh, the new album, you got a feeling about this new album because it's, it's got yes ism. Sort of vibe about it, so I'm very excited, of course.
Marc Beckman: it does, it does. Jon, I think like, or let me ask you, do you think you're blessed as a creator in that you have the ability at this point in your career to continue to be inspired and create superior music, whereas a lot of your contemporaries are Haven't been able to create this beautiful music [00:21:00] for their entire career.
You have like a very special, um, skill set. And, um, I feel like it's a blessing that you've been able to carry this through for your entire career so far. Do you see what I'm talking about? Like some, some people just can't keep on bringing out the inspiration and you do.
Jon Anderson: Maybe it's because I don't care that much.
Marc Beckman: Maybe.
Jon Anderson: I don't care, as long as people hear it and they get a chance to hear it, then they'll understand what I'm thinking and understand what I'm doing. If it's a hit, wee! I've had two, two hits in the whole You know, Owner of a Lonely Heart, and Roundabout.
So, making hit records, I, I love, I forgot about that years and years ago. I just thought about making music that sounds pretty good and pretty, pretty interesting. And then, lyrically, or, like when I did, um, Zamran. The, the idea of doing Zamran was, [00:22:00] uh, coming from Elias of Sun Hillo, which I did by myself. And Zamran started the day I was told you can't go out, there's this terrible illness called COVID.
And I thought, I'm sure I'm supposed to be doing something. And my son said, about a Son of Elias album? And I thought, Zamran. I don't know where that came from, but I wrote that down. And I started writing a lot of music about Zamran, and it's still not finished. It sounds pretty, uh, crazy. crazy to say that, but I'm still working.
It's four hours long at the moment.
Marc Beckman: Ah, that's great. Bring
Jon Anderson: what to do with that, you know?
Marc Beckman: 2025 tales.
Jon Anderson: Oh my god.
Marc Beckman: Jon, what about, um, just like going back to your comment where you're like, maybe I don't care. Is there like, um, [00:23:00] my, to be honest with you, my friend Keith Wartman and I struggle with this issue of when an artist is performing to the audience and the audience wants to hear All of the classic hit tunes, but the artist doesn't want to play those songs anymore.
Um, why doesn't the artist play the songs for the audience? Is like, what is, what is that tension there? What is that about? Like, is it just, you don't care about those songs anymore? Or it's not about, um, necessarily. upsetting the audience, but you want to inspire them differently. What, what is that tension about that I'm trying to describe?
Jon Anderson: I think you should talk to Bob Dylan.
Marc Beckman: Bob Dylan is what inspired my conversation with Keith Wartman. We were at his concert this past Saturday night,
Jon Anderson: He's,
Marc Beckman: three nights ago.
Jon Anderson: He's an amazing guy, you know. He made songs that changed the world, you know, and he won't, he won't accept it. And sometimes you don't want to tell it or sing it or [00:24:00] do it, but first band that I played in, I had a drummer from a place called Burry, B U R Y, in Lancashire. His name was Ian Wallace. And we played together for about, uh, in a band called The Warriors for about, um, five years, actually, and then there was that fateful moment, uh, where I'd, I think I'd taken too much, too much acid or something like that, as everybody did, and I'd listened to, uh, Sergeant Pepper a million times, I wanted to do this music, and I, I tried to wake everybody up, and they told me to go away, as Rick Wakeman would say, in short, jerky movements.
And, Go away. And I said, okay, and I left the band. I went to live in Munich and find myself eventually in London where I met Chris Squire. Now there's a long story, but that's, that's what happens when you be honest with yourself. If, if, if you're told to go away and you [00:25:00] can't believe they're saying it in such an aggressive way, you say, okay, I'm packed my bags, I'm going.
And I went and leaving everything behind. And sometimes that was the door that opened, you see. And I just had to have faith that things are meant to be the way they are. And then I was in Munich and I went to a beautiful place called English Gardens. And, uh, I was sitting there, a hippie, doing this a lot.
Peace and smoking marijuana. And, uh, all of a sudden I heard this voice and it was a voice right next to me saying, Jon. And I looked around and there was nobody there. And, uh, Jon. Nothing matters. Thank you. And I ran all the way to this apartment that I was staying in with these two loopies, lovely girls. And, uh, there was a [00:26:00] telegram from my mother saying, Jon, there's a band in Frankfurt. They want you to sing in their band. Phone this number. So I phoned the number and of course it was a band that lived near Frankfurt and they knew who I was for some reason because I sang with my warrior band Frankfurt.
And they said, would you like to join the band? And I said, yeah, I got on the train and that was it. So it was like, that just happened in a space of two days, a voice from afar, it's like, so it made me realize that, uh, okay, maybe I can make something of my life as a singer one day,
Marc Beckman: So when, like, when you took that step and said, Oh, I've been with the Warriors for five years. I'm going to take that step. Um, and then commit for an entire lifetime to be a musician, a songwriter, a singer, and you go through these difficult [00:27:00] times where, uh, perhaps there's adversity, doubt might seep in.
How do you get over that moment of maybe questioning yourself?
Jon Anderson: Well, from that moment, I knew there was God. I knew there were some angels around and they were like,
Marc Beckman: Jon,
Jon Anderson: Jon, nothing matters. And that word, nothing matters, is right in the middle of the movie that two years ago got all the, uh, awards. It's the one, it's about a, I think it's a Japanese lady or a Chinese lady in a quandary about something.
It's an incredible title. It was a great title. Major, major movie. And right in the middle is the voice says to the leading man, nothing matters. And I went, ding.
Marc Beckman: Jon, that does that tie back to freedom, right? That's like freedom of your mind, freedom [00:28:00] to be who you want.
' Jon, when you mentioned, um, Rick Wakeman waving his finger at you saying, okay, you once, um, I read this, I, I kind of smiled, uh, I read, you once commented that he's the grumpiest old guy and the most beautiful guy in the world, and I, it made me smile so much. I was curious, like, why is Rick so beautiful? What makes him so beautiful?
Jon Anderson: Well he's a natural talent. It is like, um, we were on an island in, uh, in the Caribbean making, um. It was an album, ABWH, and it's interesting that we can talk about this because when I thought about making an album with Steve. Rick and Bill, good old Bill. All I did was go to their house for an hour or two [00:29:00] and listen to what they have recorded and take cassettes and cassettes from Steve and cassette from Rick who was in the Isle of Man and I went to Paris.
I'd actually found four musicians who could play Not the same as, but similar to, Rick, Steve and Bill. And, asked Bill about touring with, he said, uh, uh, but I, I can't tour without 211. I said, thank you, you just solved a problem that I had about, do I get back together with Chris again?
So, basically we went to Montserrat to make an album and, uh, finish off, actually, I recorded all the album in Paris near the, the, the, near the city, by the River Seine, in a, in an old chateau, there was a studio down below. And I just knew all the songs that I wanted to write and [00:30:00] sing, which were collectively part of Steve's ideas, Rick's ideas, Bill's ideas.
And, uh, so, I was the master of my domain, musically speaking. So I did a demo of the album, and I sent it to the record company. And they said, we love the songs, and you're going to re record them where? I said, at George Martin's studio in Montserrat. You know, what better place in connection with George Martin, you know?
And so we went there, and one of the things that happened, which was quite wonderful, I thought, was that there was a local school, you know, about, Three or four hundred yards away from the studio and in between that there were paths going down to the village and then on the right hand side was a cricket pitch and that's where the kids would play cricket every day practicing cricket because cricket is the national game of the [00:31:00] Caribbean, don't you know?
And, uh, so I knew that and, and, and I, I got together with a teacher and said, uh, Me and Rick and Bill and thing and thing, we're gonna play your kids, and we're gonna give them a hard time.
Marc Beckman: Did you actually play them?
Jon Anderson: yeah, we all, you know, we, we just dress like this, you know, casual, you know, hanging out, man. We're gonna play cricket with these kids.
What do they know? Because we're from England, sort of thing. Anyway, they all, all, all the kids came on in the white, everything there. The white shirts, the white pants, the pads, the gloves, the proper cricket. They had all the equipment, and they killed us.
Marc Beckman: How bad?
Jon Anderson: Very bad. But it was so beautiful in so many ways because, you know, it was just a beautiful Sunday afternoon Children's parents where they're all cheering them on and we were flubbing around trying to, trying to score [00:32:00] and trying to knock them out. Nothing gonna happen. They just beat us. So after that, I went back to the studio with Rick and I said, Rick, let's record a song, please.
And he said, OK, and this is Rick and he got to the piano and he played and I sang the most beautiful song. should remember the name of it, but I'm thinking of it now. Da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da to the meeting of your love. It's called The Meeting.
Marc Beckman: I know.
Jon Anderson: And it's the first time I've sang it since we recorded it. I think we did it on tour for a session of touring.
Marc Beckman: I'm getting chills hearing you sing this right now.
Jon Anderson: Thank you. Me too, trying to remember the words. Where o'er whence it came Like a singer sings a [00:33:00] song, da da da da da da da da da da da da da, to the meeting of your life, no, oh, no, cannot be deceived, no, oh, no, da da da da da da da da da da da.
Marc Beckman: Incredible.
[00:34:00] that album, um, had a lot of deep themes too. Like, I remember, I, I, I'm pretty sure I'm right, like, you tackled issues that were, that maybe are still societally, uh, connected, like indigenous people and, uh, there was a lot of darkness in that, in that album too,
Jon Anderson: Yeah. I think it was, you know, I remember 2011 came and did the best parts and everything, the only thing that was missing was Steve. Steve decided he didn't like the Caribbean, so We put his guitar playing on later, um, but to me there was no, I'd have to go through the lyrics again, but I think I was trying to sing about the usual, I'd have to look at the, the, the, the The song, uh, as you can tell, I can't remember certain things.
Marc Beckman: Me neither.
Jon Anderson: It was, um, it was a beautiful thing to do, that's all I know.
Marc Beckman: Jon, like when, when, [00:35:00] like you're like, so many of your songs were mission oriented, right? Like people don't really, um, necessarily connect yes with cause related music, but you really cared about the environment, interconnectivity. Um, and I'm curious, uh, when you look at music today, it's not, um, it seems like it's not as mission oriented or as impactful on culture and society as it was, you know, during, um, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s.
Do you think, do you agree with that statement? And if so, why do you think that's shifted?
Jon Anderson: think it's obvious, to me, it's just got better and better at explaining where we are collectively. I listen to, uh, No Shoes Radio on Sirius Radio. No Shoes Radio is the best because it covers, um, reggae music to country [00:36:00] music. I'm trying to get my head around and remember the guy that it's mainly about him.
He's such a great songwriter. And, uh, so there are still every single day a new song is being born. There's no limit to the beauty and the collective bargaining that you get with being a musician. You know, it's like, are we really going to sing about this today? Yeah, we're going to sing about it. And you do it, you record it.
And if it works, it works, you know?
Marc Beckman: Yeah, yeah. You know, when you, when you talk about looking back in time, you mentioned Chris Squire, and I'd be remiss to not mention that, um, the anniversary of his passing was just, I think, last week also, um, and then you, you're mentioning, uh, Tony Levin's, um, bass guitar on, on Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, Howe, but, you know, Chris Squire was the first one that you, you Connected with, if I understand the story, [00:37:00] uh, correctly, to, to form Yes, and what made him such a, a special person?
You met, you, we, we talked a little bit about Rick Wakeman. What, what made Christopher Squire, um, such an impressive individual beyond his music, beyond the obvious?
Jon Anderson: But the way he played was very in harmony with the singer. So I was the singer and he obviously did this, you know, as I sang that, he was doing this and moving around. And it became natural for me to write songs. With him, and then again with, with Steve Howe, uh, start writing with St. Steve around fragile album, things like that.
Rick was there, so there I had an, an accompaniment of very talented musicians that eventually became very famous. I didn't know that. When we were in the, in the, in the, uh, basement of the Lucky Horseshoe Cafe in [00:38:00] Central London. That's where we were when we started, and we, we. Sort of tried this out, tried that out.
I think we were connected very strongly to, uh, you know, the, the, the, the American music was, uh, very, the Beach Boys at the height of their career, and there was this, uh, energy of Crosby, Stills, and Nash were coming sort of thing. Everybody knew this was happening around the time. There was a lot going on that wasn't in England because the Beatles had dominated so much that there wasn't that, like, uh, At that time, there was a band called Family out of Birmingham and I just said to Chris, you know, as long as we can be as good as them, I don't care what
Marc Beckman: good as family,
Jon Anderson: Yeah, Family. And,
Marc Beckman: you had a high bar, huh?
Jon Anderson: yeah, well, at that time, you know, you wanted to be as good as you can be, you know. And, uh, [00:39:00] that's when we started to understand that, hey, we can, uh, listen to other bands. At that time, King Crimson was happening, Zeppelin was happening. It was like, we knew that everything was going on, and we were part of the everything that was going on.
We didn't know how good we were until Fragile, I think. That's why it was called Fragile, because we'd already lost two guys in the band, Peter, and then eventually, Kaye, who was the keyboard player. Then we got Rick Wakeman. All of a sudden, we were blossoming. Musically speaking, because there was more to talk about and more to conjure up together.
And that's why, you know, the, the Yes album became what it was and the Fragile. And then all of a sudden it was like, okay, let's go for close to the edge. Me and Steve have been writing this idea out, you know, and it, again, that was a miracle within itself. [00:40:00] Watch it, watching that happen and how it built and created.
And then the. The extraordinary feeling that I got when I got a phone call from Bill Bruford a week later, we'd finished it and we were, I was like, okay, we're, we're, we're a band that means something here now. Bill, what, what is it, Bill? What? You're going to leave the band? I can't breathe, I can't breathe. You're going to leave the band and go with King Crimson? I can't breathe anymore because he doesn't like our music. I have the feeling that we weren't good enough then.
Marc Beckman: So you felt you weren't good enough because Bill Bruford was taking a, taking a hike. I mean, he was immensely talented, but then Alan White joined after
Jon Anderson: of course, it was like somebody's. Got a coin and went, okay, tails, we go for this guy, Alan White. He, he, he played with Jon Lennon. You know that guy? Yeah. Do you know him? Yeah. Well, get him to come and rehearse. [00:41:00] Sancho is one of the roadies.
Marc Beckman: something you mentioned earlier, Jon, um, reminded me of something Jon Lennon said in an interview, you spoke about, you said, regarding Yes, and then we became a famous band, we became famous, and Jon Lennon once, um, explored this idea of, like, which came first, The band or the fans?
Like, did the fans make the band or did the music to the band create the fandom? So I'm curious, like, how would you react to that kind of a query?
Jon Anderson: don't know. I
Marc Beckman: did the fame propel you forward and keep inspiring you or?
Jon Anderson: at that time, it's, it's like being in a washing machine, you know, you're going round and round and round. And I remember somebody said, have you seen that, uh, Yoko Ono has these step ladders in her. Art Museum if you want art show and you go up the stepladders all the way right at the top is a little word And it says yes, I said [00:42:00] good.
I'm glad we're called. Yes, then at least we're connected, you know, and a lot of a lot of You know people want to know what you've got to think about say that a bit of that. Why did you write roundabout? What does it mean? Well, actually it means that when you go to Aberdeen to Glasgow you go through 15 roundabouts on the way down, you know That's basically it.
Marc Beckman: Sometimes there's just not the depth.
Jon Anderson: But 24 hours later we'll be back home in London, so.
Marc Beckman: Right, right.
Jon Anderson: It's corny, but it's what it is.
Marc Beckman: But, you know, that's like kind of living and developing, I guess, as humans, right? Like, if it's just what it is at face value, if it's just going around these roundabouts and there's nothing more to it, um, you know, you've had literally legions and legions, millions and millions of fans through the generations thinking, what, you know, what's that profound meaning for roundabouts?
It's like the way that, you know, [00:43:00] you and I might. Look at Picasso's Guernica from a different perspective and it might connect us emotionally. So as the creator of Roundabout, is it important? What's more important for you to, for your music to be interpreted at face value? We're just going around roundabouts or should it be something more profound?
Like from my experience, it talks to me about the highs and lows, of life and getting over certain hurdles. Like how should fans, um, admirers of your artwork, interpret your artwork?
Jon Anderson: Well, obviously it's up to them because, you know, it's It's impossible for me to not want to say what it is. It's a simple song that we wrote on the way down from Aberdeen to Glasgow in the back of a van. And it happened and it made, you know, and we, we, we extended this, the middle section because we were, as a, as a band, we were very excited to be Uh, open and, and, and let's try [00:44:00] this idea.
Try this. We've just done the song of the chorus, song of the chorus. Now let's just go into the middle. Something else, something different. You know, it's like, and you do it and then the record company cut it out and it becomes a hit.
Marc Beckman: [00:45:00] Jon, how many times did you guys have that creative energy where it's like, let's build this into the middle and everybody could showcase their art form and then, um, cut something out even before it got to the record company, like percentage wise, like how much amazing music didn't end up in these masterpieces
Jon Anderson: in a dustbin in the back of the studio.
Marc Beckman: the back of that van?
Jon Anderson: Yeah, no, no, no, no. Whichever way you look at it, you know when you're going down the wrong hole, whichever way you're taking your musicians, you're talking about this, and you say, Hey, let's, guys, let's just have a cup of tea. [00:46:00] Forget about what we just did for the last four hours.
Marc Beckman: Jon, how, how would, so I'm like just thinking back like to that van ride, like back then, what was your definition of success? Was it about just getting roundabout out into the world? Or was there
Jon Anderson: it was, we were so, um, excited about things around that time. The album was out, we were on tour around England, and, uh All of a sudden, we were told, we're going to go to America, and we said, America? Gosh, never thought about that. And you get on a plane, and you go to America, and all of a sudden you're on tour with Jeff Rotot, who I used to see in a club in London, and, uh, Ian Anderson looked like a tramp.
He was dressed like a tramp, and he was weird and crazy with his flute, you know, like a, a madman. Yet, he controlled. [00:47:00] He had a big album out at that time, and he controlled the audience so well, and I was very scared being on stage at that time anyway. I'm very shy for some reason, but as I said to Ian later, you taught me so much about stage presence, and it's all down to doing the same thing every night, isn't it?
And he said, yeah, of course it is. You think I'm going to do this every night? Different every night? No, I found an idea. I want to do that. I'm going to walk over there. I'm going to do that with my elbow. I'm going to sing like that. And then I'm going to do it the following show. I said, that's so cool.
Cause I was there banging tambourine and trying to keep up with the band.
Marc Beckman: Jon, does that concept of repeating stage presence apply off the stage in life too?
Jon Anderson: I like, that's a good question. Of course, I tend to be very, um, well, I'm very affable person. I'm very open and very affable, affable, affable about everything. And the [00:48:00] more I'm asked, Whatever questions or certain questions, there's certain answers that come to me like instant, like don't go there, don't go there.
It's best to just keep going along that way. And as, as it happens, Marc, this time of my life now is so, um, it's funny. It's just naturally very funny. And, uh, I've not, I don't feel wrong about saying stuff sometimes. Um, as I, as I said, I'd rather put them in a, a lyric, uh, or the, the lyricist within me puts them in there without me, asking me, you know, cause I'll sing ideas and think, why am I singing about that?
I mean, the middle of, um, the song on the new album, uh, the, the, the, the, the, it's called, um, Once Upon a Dream. And all that I'm singing [00:49:00] about in the middle is this idea that it's okay. Just relax, everything is going to be okay, everything will work out. And in my mind, I'm hearing sung by so many different musicians over the world, saying the same thing.
It's okay, come on, let's just, you know, Bob Marley. Come on, everything is going to be alright.
Marc Beckman: I love, I love Bob Marley. He also is one of my favorites. In fact, um, Jon, beyond my work with New York University, I own an advertising agency, and we are about to give birth to a never before seen book that we created surrounding Bob Marley with Rizzoli, the photographer who's a client of ours, actually lived with Bob Marley, uh, for many years in, um, in Jamaica.
White Jewish guy named Lee Jaffe from New York City, and they were best friends. And, um, it's like such an incredible, um, [00:50:00] story that Lee tells through his photographs. Um, you know, they've never been seen before, but, um, those archetypes that you're touching on, Those human archetypes, they keep repeating. We hear them through Bob's music.
We certainly hear them and enjoy them and appreciate them through your music. Is that just, um, you know, is that just humanity? Is that just who we are? And sometimes we're looking deeper to see the meaning of roundabout, but it truly is just What makes us up right?
Jon Anderson: Well, like anything, you know, you just enjoy it for what it is to you. What does it mean to you when, when you think of And You And I? Or, because when I'm singing them now, I'm singing these songs with more clarity than I've ever sang them. I've just finished touring and I was singing Close To The Edge and And You And I, All Good People.
All we are saying is, give peace a chance, you know, [00:51:00] da da, da da, da da. And you know, as you mentioned, the fact that they're using that song on the new movie with Tom Hanks,
Marc Beckman: I saw
Jon Anderson: amazing. And I was up there singing the dance song four days ago. And everybody started singing, give peace a chance, come on, come on, let's stop wars, we don't need any wars.
Isn't it about time we listened to Jon Lennon? You know, come on,
Marc Beckman: And Jon Anderson. I mean, when, when will all of this stop? When can people come back together and, um, give peace a chance?
Jon Anderson: Well, it's, it's, it's such a big business, you know, War. There's a lot of money involved and, you know, there's, there's an advert on TV at the moment, the, the biggest submarine being created now is by the submarine. com, you know. It's, it's, it's like, [00:52:00] yeah, just what we needed, uh, an atomic underwater monster to come on.
Oh, I flipped the switch. I shouldn't have flipped that switch. What switch? The switch that says Oh, it's too late.
Marc Beckman: Horrific.
Jon Anderson: End of movie.
Marc Beckman: Jon, you've been so generous with your time today.
Jon Anderson: Thank you.
Marc Beckman: I, I, I want to ask you, um, if you would, each guest that comes on, on my show, I, um, I end it the same way, I, um, begin a sentence with the show's title, which was inspired by James Joyce in Some Future Day, and then they finish the sentence, I would certainly be honored if you would do this with me, but I don't want to put you on the spot, um, would you be willing to, um, participate with me?
Jon Anderson: I'll give it a try, he said.
Marc Beckman: Okay, so this is a little bit of a mash up between Marc Beckman and Jon Anderson. So, [00:53:00] in some future day, your friend is close by your side and speaks in far ancient tongue. A season's wish will come true. All seasons, We'll begin with,
Jon Anderson: You. Because you are the center of the world. The center of all that is. You are, in fact, enormously free, and thankfully, connected to the divine. Because that's why we're here. To find the connection to the divine. And God bless you all, and a Merry Christmas.
Marc Beckman: Jon, Merry Christmas to you. I wish I could hug you through the screen. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's really an honor. And I look forward to seeing you again, performing very soon.
Jon Anderson: Thanks, Marc.
Marc Beckman: All right, Jon, have a great day.
Jon Anderson: Take care. Bye bye.
Marc Beckman: Bye. [00:54:00] [00:55:00]