Dovetail Workwear Founder Sara DeLuca on Building a Durable Brand

What happens when a product doesn’t exist… but clearly should?

In this episode of Growth Mavericks, Adam Callinan sits down with Sara DeLuca, co-founder of Dovetail Workwear—a brand built to solve a problem most companies ignored: real workwear for women.

What started as a simple idea—making better pants for landscapers—turned into a fast-growing brand with deep product complexity, massive SKU challenges, and a mission-driven community.

This is a masterclass in building a durable brand the right way: slow, intentional, and grounded in real customer needs.

WHAT YOU’LL LEARN

•  How to validate a product before scaling 
•  Why solving a real problem beats chasing trends 
•  The hidden complexity behind apparel SKUs 
•  How to manage inventory without killing cash flow 
•  Why “taking the stairs” beats hypergrowth 
•  How COVID unexpectedly helped their business 
•  Building a mission-driven brand that lasts 

KEY TAKEAWAYS

•  Build for a need, not a trend 
•  Talk to your customers constantly 
•  SKU creep can quietly destroy your margins 
•  Wholesale + DTC balance matters 
•  Durability > speed when building a brand 

CHAPTERS

00:00 The problem: workwear for women didn’t exist
 02:00 Leaving NYC for a better life
 04:00 Founding Dovetail in a backyard
 07:00 Prototyping with 50 real users
 10:00 Garage launch and trunk shows
 13:00 First wholesale breakthrough
 17:00 Scaling distribution channels
 20:00 COVID impact on retail
 23:00 Managing SKU complexity
 30:00 Inventory strategy and margins
 33:00 Building a brand that lasts
 36:00 Founder mindset and durability

LINKS

Dovetail Workwear
 https://dovetailworkwear.com

Pentane (Ecommerce Command Center)
 https://www.pentane.com

ABOUT THE PODCAST

Growth Mavericks breaks down how founders actually build—from idea to scale—covering strategy, execution, and the real challenges behind growth.

Hosted by Adam Callinan.

Creators and Guests

Host

Adam Callinan

Adam Callinan is the founder of Pentane, a financial and advertising command center that empowers brands to drive predictable revenue and intentional profit. Previously, Adam co-founded BottleKeeper, a bootstrapped consumer brand that scaled to $8M in sales within three years – without employees – and was later acquired in 2021 as an eight-figure business with a team of four, marking Adam's second successful exit.

What is Growth Mavericks?

This podcast dives deep into the tactical moves that drive business success, as well as the mental and physical resilience required to sustain it.

Hosted by Adam Callinan, a seasoned entrepreneur with multiple exits, an avid outdoorsman, and an family man with crystal-clear priorities, each episode unpacks real-world challenges, actionable insights, and the mental and physical disciplines that fuel long-term personal and professional growth.

Whether you’re scaling a startup or refining your mindset, disrupting your default is how business and life strike a balance.

Adam Callinan (00:25)
Today we are talking with Sarah DeLuca. She is the co-founder of Dovetail Workwear. Sarah spent years in super high-end apparel in New York before moving to Portland where she hired two landscapers named Kate and Kyle. She kept hearing them complain that there were no functional workwear clothes for women. They did not exist. So it was basically just all men's stuff that was.

shrunk down and made pink, she says. So she said, let me make you a pair of pants. And this company Dovetail was born. They tested a bunch of prototypes on 50 women across various types of outdoor trades, generally speaking. And they launched out of a garage and a bunch of trunk shows and crushed pre-orders at outdoor retail in 2018. Stores started placing orders and things have been moving from there.

We get into the complexity of SKUs and running a company like this that has a lot of SKUs and how SKUs can creep, how that changes as we get into getting really specific on sizes from like zero to 24 across all the colors and all the things, how they dealt with COVID and how it.

was actually quite good for the brand, which I know COVID was not good for a lot of things, but in the world of retail, when you were selling products inside of stores that were deemed essential, that was good for the brand. we also get into how they're really being deliberate about building.

the business in a way that can last and sort of taking the stairs instead of the elevator, which is really a theme that keeps coming up with podcast guests here. let's get into it.

Adam Callinan (01:58)
You're in Portland, Oregon. Is that correct? Have you always been there?

Sara DeLuca (02:01)
That's correct, yeah.

Yup.

Adam Callinan (02:05)
Born and raised.

Sara DeLuca (02:06)
No, I moved here from New York in like 2006. ⁓ But Dovetail's always been here and I figure since 2006 I'm pretty much a Portlander.

Adam Callinan (02:09)
Okay.

Yeah, that's

pretty good. What was the motive for the move literally all the way across the country?

Sara DeLuca (02:26)
I think we were really looking for a change of lifestyle. We were ⁓ living and working in New York, working being the operative word. And I had my oldest daughter and we just, it wasn't really sustainable ⁓ from a lifestyle perspective. And so we just decided to jump ship and we moved to Portland.

Adam Callinan (02:57)
What were you doing professionally in New York?

Sara DeLuca (03:00)
In New York, I was working in apparel. I have a long background in apparel. At the time, I was working with a couple of high-end denim brands. Exciting, fun, loved the product, but traveling all the time. And my husband was working in a law firm in New York, and so we were just both sort of on this hamster wheel of exciting careers, but ⁓ challenging to have any kind of life-work balance.

Adam Callinan (03:03)
Okay.

Yeah, so you head to Portland, did you stay in apparel in Oregon?

Sara DeLuca (03:34)
I took a couple of years off and then started working again in apparel, doing a lot of contract work for companies back in New York. And ⁓ that was great for several years because my kids were small and it gave me lot of flexibility. ⁓ And then I would just travel back to New York like once a quarter. And then... ⁓

in about 2016 is when I met the two co-founders of Dovetail and started working on Dovetail seriously and then really took on Dovetail full-time in about 2017.

Adam Callinan (04:12)
Okay, let's dive into that. Will you explain to the listener what Dovetail is and then let's go into Genesis story.

Sara DeLuca (04:22)
Okay, sure. Yeah, Dovetail is a women's workwear brand and we're really made for anyone who is doing something physical. So they may be in the trades, but they may be an environmental scientist. They may be... ⁓

a fisherwoman, you name it, like the women who wear our product are a huge array. But ultimately they look for something that's performance based that helps them when they're working functional pockets, great fit, rugged fabrics, ⁓ and just not really having to compromise function and style. ⁓ Most of our customers still want to look good, feel like themselves, but also have... ⁓

apparel that works with them, so to speak, not against them.

Adam Callinan (05:12)
And when you went into that, was that concept already alive and you joined it or were you part of that founding story?

Sara DeLuca (05:20)
We were really the founding story. the time we started, so Kate and Kyle, my two co-founders, had a landscaping business and I had hired them to work on a couple of properties for me. And I would sit out on the back deck when they took their water breaks, take a break from my work and listen to them talk about lack of functional work wear for women. They just couldn't find it. You couldn't find it in stores at all. You could order it online. Some of the big brands did.

have women's lines, but they tended to be thinner fabrics, fit was not great, ⁓ really limited sizing options. So Kyle, for example, is petite. She was just buying boys jeans because she couldn't even find her size. And ⁓ just not a lot out there. There wasn't even like if you went into like a farm and ranch kind of store, wouldn't, there was no women's workwear section. It just didn't exist. ⁓

So we ⁓ started prototyping ⁓ really based on the work that Kate and Kyle were doing in building a uniform that would work for them. So they wanted something where they could do all the physical aspects of their job, know, unloading the truck, laying the quarter minus gravel, digging the trenches. But then they wanted to be able to turn around and meet with a contractor or a client.

be taken seriously, look professional. ⁓ And so that was a great fun challenge for me coming from the industry. was like, I would love to make you guys a pair of pants. And so that's how we started. ⁓ And that goes to the heart and soul of our mission really is serious work apparel for women and inclusive sizing and quality materials and like a certain craft to what we're making that ⁓

resonates with her because a lot of the women we work with are craft women themselves. ⁓ And that's really what started the brand.

Adam Callinan (07:19)
What an amazing coming together of opportunity and experience.

Sara DeLuca (07:24)
Very much so. ⁓ You know, think Kate and Kyle were, you know, we started wearing the prototypes and people came out of the woodwork, you know, because the industry is small and women talk to each other and they're like, hey, what are you wearing? my God, I need a pair of those. you know, people would literally stop us on the street. And yeah, it was fun to build something that was so ⁓ really solving a problem. ⁓

I think for me in my experience in apparel, like I had a fun career. I've worked on a lot of really cool products, but I had never had the chance to just really, truly solve a problem. Like this thing doesn't exist. Let's make something that fills that need. ⁓ So it's kind of a very, very like great timing for me. And I felt like I could take the culmination of all of my experience and bring it to this brand and really build something cool.

Adam Callinan (08:24)
Yeah. I mean, as we were talking earlier before I hit record, I live in Montana, uh, and my wife and I, spent an incredible amount of time out in the woods and it's like this stuff that she ends up having to wear. She's also, you know, like five, seven and petite has a lot of the same kind of problems. Like it's basically, limited to the things you can buy at REI, which is okay. I guess it's better than what you can buy at Murdoch's, is our, which is our local like ranch store in Montana.

I think the women's department is probably entirely comprised of Wrangler and Carhartt, which is what I think of when I think of work wear. think of Carhartt overalls, which are, I mean, they serve their purpose, but they're clearly not.

Sara DeLuca (09:09)
Yeah, I think being able to go in with a focus on fit and being a women's only brand, know, it's nice. We didn't have to sit in a boardroom and argue about revenue streams or we could just focus on women from the beginning, no questions asked. And fit really is at the sort of the top of our priority list because it's been such a challenge. And, you know, a lot of the fabrics we work with are

know, heavyweight canvases or low stretch. And so to get something to fit right is like a never ending challenge, especially because there's such a wide diversity of body shapes and sizes, but it's a good challenge. We like it. And we have tried to incorporate certain types of stretch to help us with that, just to, you know, again, accommodate different body types and shapes. So.

Adam Callinan (10:00)
So when you made the first, going back, I don't know if you wanna call it prototype or first version of the products, you started wearing the products, people started liking the product. Did you go straight to online or how did you launch the brand itself?

Sara DeLuca (10:14)
So we wanted to test the, you know, with the amount of interest we were getting, we thought, let's test this hypothesis. So we got a group of about 50 women together and we made them prototypes in their sizes. And I wanted to look at not just pattern, right? Like, is it gonna fit the size 18 the same way it fits the size two? But I also wanted to kind of test the pocketing.

functionality because we had really built that around landscaping and I wanted to make sure that it had sort of some universal truth across different types of tools being used or things being carried in people's pockets and so we did that.

tests with about 50 women from all different occupations. And then a subset of those we took back to Kate's garage at the time and we filmed them and asked them about their experience with the pants. How did they fit? Did they like the pockets? ⁓ How did they feel in the pants? And I think it was really during those interviews that it was like that aha moment where

It wasn't just about the pants. It wasn't about the physical pant. It was about how they felt in the pants and what they felt empowered to do in the pants and how it made them feel seen because someone was actually making product for them.

that we were like, okay, this is really cool, first of all. Like we've landed on something that's not just a compelling product and a market opportunity, but we've landed on a mission, right? And it was sort of that trifecta and that moment where we're like, let's seriously pursue this. ⁓ So from there, we did kind of our own version of a Kickstarter. took pre-orders to fund the first production run.

And we just launched with a single style called the Maven in three different fabrics. And we hit the ground like we were at every possible venue where we could set up a trunk show and have people fit product and place an order. So we were really very, very much sort of. ⁓

a lot of showing up, talking to people. It was actually great from a product standpoint, because we were getting really good feedback early on. And also just testing the market, right? Like were people interested? And people were. So we ran that first production run. And from there, we kind of launched online and built out a larger collection and then took the product to outdoor retailer in 2018 with more of like we had multiple silhouettes, we had overalls.

and more of a complete uniform.

Adam Callinan (13:00)
So by then you had, or I mean, if we back up in that pre-order situation, did you or someone on the team like pop up a Shopify store that was taking pre-orders or how are you organizing that if it wasn't through a crowdfunding campaign?

Sara DeLuca (13:13)
We did have a Shopify

site taking pre-orders.

Adam Callinan (13:17)
So you were going like full blown guerrilla marketing style, like trade show, local art fairs and shows, anywhere you could open a trunk, which is exceptional, especially in today's world. ⁓ That was ahead of the curve. That stuff is so valuable now, more than it kind of ever has been in this world of AI. And people were then, you were sending people to the Shopify store to place pre-orders or were you able to just sell it out of the trunk at those events?

Sara DeLuca (13:26)
Exactly.

We didn't have the first order in yet, so we had basically a full size run and people could try on their size and we'd figure out their inseam. And then we would either place the order directly online or we would send them home with like a postcard and a discount code and say, you know, go ahead and order from home.

Adam Callinan (14:01)
That's brilliant. And then as you then move forward, so roughly what year would that have been? Like 17? 17, okay. So as you fast forward then and you get into 2018 to outdoor retailer, what happened in between that period of time? Because I mean, I have been to outdoor retailer a couple of times with my last company, Bottlekeeper. So it's a massive show. It's like a big thing. That's a pretty big step in what is effectively like year two.

Sara DeLuca (14:08)
That was 2017.

Adam Callinan (14:31)
How did you get to that point?

Sara DeLuca (14:32)
Yeah,

no, that's a great point. we along the way, we joined forces with a company here in Portland called Portland Product Works, and they were basically a consumer goods platform. ⁓ At that time, focused mostly on footwear and a couple of footwear licensing deals. But that partnership enabled us to really expand upon our access to capital, logistics, operations, and really enabled us to create that.

you know, more built out collection and be able to go to outdoor retailer. We were in the, I can't remember what that section was called, but the, you know, new up and coming company section. So.

Adam Callinan (15:12)
Yeah, we did

that too early on, yeah.

Sara DeLuca (15:13)
We weren't like

on the top floor with, you know, a build out like Carhartts or anything, but we had a great booth and it was really interesting. had planned to offer wholesale 2019 was kind of our goal when we went to that show, but people loved the brand and really understood it. And so we started shipping wholesale as early as 2018 just because stores were asking for it earlier.

But it definitely accelerated our growth because it just gave us exposure to all these accounts. at that time, Outdoor Retailer 2 was a great marketing space, like PR, editors coming through. ⁓ So those first two shows were really important for us.

Adam Callinan (16:02)
Yeah, we always wanted to be in the new upcoming space. Like in a trade show like that, we didn't want to be on the floor with all the stuff and the noise and the big fancy ridiculous. We always wanted to be in the new up and coming. So we would like launch new products just so we could go and be like in the new up and coming space. Because that's where all the editors are. Like that's where the PR people are. That's where the publishers go. That's where the companies are. The buyers are going to find new things.

Sara DeLuca (16:05)
You

Yeah, no it is. It's where a lot of the dynamic new product and creation is happening for sure.

Adam Callinan (16:32)
So did you land big retailers through that or were you mostly then distributing through smaller boutiques or how did that work for you?

Sara DeLuca (16:42)
⁓ I would say both that really set the stage for some larger accounts bringing us on. One of our first accounts was Coastal, which they're kind of like your Murdochs here in the Pacific Northwest, but it was a big account for us. And then some larger accounts, like we started talking to REI early on. ⁓

At even that first show, I remember them coming by and we started conversations at that time. They were really making a push for inclusive sizing, so they were excited about. ⁓

a workwear option that already had that sort of embedded in its DNA. ⁓ And then a lot of specialty outdoor stores were really interested in the product because they have a customer that's really crossover, you know, like the whole world is crossover now. Like outdoor and work are no longer two separate segments. They're the same person. They may just be doing different things throughout their day or they may make a product that sort of meets them for all of the things that they're doing. And so all three of those types of accounts, ⁓

we really were able to get a decent number under our belts, which helped us because we could order for a wholesale and have a nice order, and then we would just build on that order for DTC.

Adam Callinan (17:58)
Do you mean from an inventory purchasing standpoint? Okay, got it. So as you're doing that, how is your revenue aligned? Was it mostly D to C and then you were supplementing it with wholesale or was it the opposite?

Sara DeLuca (18:01)
Yeah, yeah. ⁓

We were probably 50-50 in the beginning. I think now DTC has definitely, we still do wholesale, but DTC moved ahead ⁓ over the years, anywhere from 60%, 70%, depending on the climate. I would say we're now at maybe 65-35 or 70-30, with ⁓ DTC being the predominant. But at that time, it was more of an even split.

Adam Callinan (18:40)
And then you go into the second half of 2019 and 2020 and 2021 with all the COVID, all that thing they called COVID and wholesale kind of shut off. Did you, I assume you had a similar experience? How did that work for you?

Sara DeLuca (20:19)
Well, we thought we were really worried ⁓ and a lot of wholesale did shut off. But what was interesting is that the farm and ranch stores were deemed essential. So a lot of the farm and ranch stores had their best, their best years ever during COVID. And we kind of rode that wave too. Like they, you everyone was outside building a chicken coop and ⁓

work where we weren't trying to sell party dresses, right? Like we were selling functional product. And so both our DTC stayed really healthy and wholesale. I think maybe where we had a downtrending wholesale trend was offset by the performance of like the farm and ranch accounts because their business was just booming during COVID.

Adam Callinan (20:44)
That's interesting.

Yeah, you effectively eliminate all the competition. That's crazy. I didn't, yeah, I never thought of that. I mean, what we were selling would not have been in a farm and ranch really store. And we, I mean, in, bottle keeper, we went from, we said no to retail from start until 2018. And we had built up mainly because I didn't want to hire anybody to manage it.

Sara DeLuca (21:09)
Exactly. Yeah.

Adam Callinan (21:30)
And we had, so by the time we went into retail, we had a wait list of thousands of stores and we went from zero to 5,000 stores in the first year in just in 2018. And then COVID hit and all of wholesale stopped for us. It was growing. It was going to be a really big part of our profitability cycle in 2020, 2019, 2020. But our direct consumer side explode like crushed. It did incredibly well. Cause we had all these people sitting at home on their Facebook accounts, you know,

Sara DeLuca (21:37)
Wow.

Adam Callinan (21:59)
half the country couldn't ship product because the state they were in, the warehouses had been closed and we were just lucky that our warehouses were in a state that didn't get closed. So like the customer acquisition costs, I mean, they cut down, I don't know, I'm gonna totally make this number up, but it was a lot. It was like 75 % down. We did really, really well from a business perspective in the direct consumer space in that time.

Very interesting time. So in this sort of new world, you're running at about 70, 30 or 65, 35 direct to consumer. Are you selling on Amazon as well or are you just on Shopify?

Sara DeLuca (22:41)
We have been selling on Amazon through a third party ⁓ who manages the inventory and all of the storefronts and all of the fun Amazon interactions. ⁓ So yeah, it is one of our distribution channels. It hasn't been the biggest, but ⁓ we just switched partners. So we'll see how that goes in the future.

Adam Callinan (23:10)
How do you deal with managing skew, creep and skew growth in an apparel company?

Sara DeLuca (23:18)
That's a great question. It's incredibly challenging, especially when you want to be inclusive in your sizing. So for us, know, we're a women's pant company, so numeric sizing is really important, especially when you're not dealing with like a yoga pant, which you can alpha size. But, know, we're running anywhere from tip of zero up to size 24. And then we have four inseam, sometimes five inseams. So just in a single style, your skew is huge. ⁓

And then, yeah, I mean, we try to, from that first show where we built out, you know, a couple of main pants silhouettes, some overalls, a couple tops, we've really grown the lines because our customer wants it, right? They want super lightweight stuff for the summer or when they're working in hot conditions, but they still need kind of full coverage. They want stuff in the winter that's not overly bulky, but still has thermal regulation and wind resistance and

enables them to move and work and, you know, take off layers. ⁓ And silhouettes too, you know, I think we've continually kind of started to build the line out so it meets, you know, some women want a looser silhouette that just enables them to move. ⁓ Some of our other customers, especially in the younger demographic, want something that's, you know, like a wide leg or a high rise or something that sort of fits this lifestyle component.

to their normal wardrobe. ⁓ And then of course we run everything from like a canvas to a lightweight ripstop to denims. ⁓ We've tried to build in, we really love fabric innovation, so that's been a really fun area for us to differentiate ourselves. ⁓ Bringing in performance technologies from the outdoor side of the world and putting them in workwear fabrications. ⁓

that just hasn't really existed, especially for women. Some of the big companies will do it for their men's lines, but you rarely see it in their women's lines. things that bump up durability, cooling technology, those kinds of things that are so important to work wear because your industrial athlete is not dissimilar to your other athlete. A lot of the ability to move, sweat. ⁓

UPF protection, all the same, right? It's just a different application.

Adam Callinan (25:49)
Do you have, or I assume you must have something or it would just explode out of control when a single product can have 120 different skews within it just to cover size and shape. Do you have systems to manage all of that internally?

Sara DeLuca (25:57)
Yeah.

We do, we

try to pick best-selling styles to run the full-size run. New styles where we're not really sure will run more of a limited-size run and maybe two inseams instead of four. We have a couple of products where we've started to experiment with alpha sizing. We did a work legging. ⁓ We have a work scourt.

a couple of styles that lended themselves to alpha sizing, makes it a lot easier. Kind of a jogger that's also alpha sized. But it's hard. I I just met with our operations people and looking at our new spring 27 line and I'm like, where am I? And they're like, you're 20 % up. And I'm like, oh no. So, you know, it just means tighter editing because it's, you know, we're our own worst enemy if we get overextended.

with skews in terms of just inventory management. And also it hurts our supplier relationships, ⁓ know, creates inefficiencies all the way through at the factory level.

Adam Callinan (27:11)
Yeah, I mean, it's hard to do that. It was hard for us to do that at bottle keeper and we had three products across 15 colors or not even, you six colors and three on this and 12 on that. And trying to keep this use under control. I've always thought it fascinating to try to figure out the systems that it would require to figure out how to do that in an apparel company like that.

Sara DeLuca (27:33)
Well, we look closely at things that I looked at when I worked at bigger companies, like adoption ratio, development to adoption ratio, are you overdeveloping, ⁓ which all those metrics when I worked for the bigger companies, I understood them and I understood why they existed, but it was, think, only in working in a very my own environment with Dovetail where I'm like, okay, this is kind of.

make it or break it. Like we don't want to spend a zillion dollars on development and then only adopt a few items. And the skew counts a similar story where it's like, it would be nice to say yes to everything, but I think trying to always come back to the why of what we're putting out there, is it, you know, are we solving a problem or is it just another cool shirt Jack? That would be like a rhetorical question, right? Or,

Adam Callinan (28:27)
Yeah.

Sara DeLuca (28:29)
Also just, yeah, being strategic about even our fabrics, using them across multiple styles so we can leverage, ⁓ because everything has a back stream implication. So it's skew count, inventory management at the warehouse, but it's also supply chain and especially in uncertain times where we try to keep a stockpile of fabrics. Are we doing that in a smart way so we don't overbuy in a certain fabric and then end up with excess fabric?

which is better than excess garments, but still it's problem. ⁓ So we've tried to be very cautious and strategic, maybe overly so. We'd sell out than have extra, if that makes sense.

Adam Callinan (29:17)
It does, there is tremendous value in scarcity. is like having running out of stock on something can be really valuable. It's painful, but really valuable. It's certainly better than the alternative. I think about, try not to nerd out too much down this cause it gets really nerdy really fast, but like cash conversion cycles with apparel like that and the decision making around what to keep and what to, you know,

Sara DeLuca (29:26)
Yeah.

Adam Callinan (29:42)
burnout and sell through because it sits for too long. It just must be really complex with that many products or that many like individual components and skews and lines.

Sara DeLuca (29:51)
Yeah, I mean, we have a pretty dialed system. We meet monthly and we'll look at like an inventory list and say, what do we think we want to carry forward and what do we want to mark down and clear out? We're lucky in that we don't have a lot in that bucket, but we watch it religiously ⁓ and probably we would have more if we weren't as conservative as we are on our inventory buys. But we're also

A brand where a lot of our product is carryover, so that is super nice. can, instead of having to place like a big purchase order and then hold the inventory, we'll like, you know, over the year we'll cut four times and we'll just watch sales and then we just replenish as we need to versus having to issue a big purchase order and hope that it sells out.

Adam Callinan (30:42)
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, just like explodes my brain with the added levels of complexity across that many products. So bravo. That's great to hear that working as it is. So what's next for the business and product? Is this a thing that you're building to sell, building to generationally hand down or is that something you even, you all talk and think about?

Sara DeLuca (31:07)
⁓ I think it's something we talk and think about, but I don't know that we have a precise answer for you. I think we're open to whatever the future holds. ⁓ We like this business. We like what we're doing. So we're certainly not anxious to, you know, sell. And there's also so many pitfalls, as you know, ⁓ what can happen to brands when they sell, ⁓ especially if you're trying to build something that

I think for us, we've always wanted to be a household name and something that endures and build something that will endure. So that is really important to us. ⁓ So I would say TBD. don't know. I'm not sure where we're headed. I think for now, though, we're excited about continuing to build the business in a really sustainable way, you know, growing year on year. ⁓ You know, we're profitable, but we.

We aren't trying to, know, exponential growth can be great, but it can also be really dangerous. So I think we're trying to pick sort of a middle path. And ⁓ we're definitely looking at, you know, expanding our categories, really looking at the women who wear our product in sort of their full lives and what they need for various aspects of their life and potentially, you know, bring in some.

subset categories that are adjacent to our core work product. We've already started doing that, but lean into that a little bit more. ⁓ And I think when I think about it too, I've, you know, I'm a little bit like you. nerd out on entrepreneurs and businesses and how they grow and, you know, the missteps they make or the strategic things they do that actually really help them grow and

just thinking about how to stay authentic to our woman. I don't want to lose those core women who helped us build this brand even as we expand our product offering. ⁓ And so how to do that in a way that keeps our core customer, continues to provide her product that works for her and that she likes. And then also look at that next ring out on the customer base and say, how can we reach her?

or for our existing customer, how can we fulfill different parts of her needs? But I'm on the product side, so I'm probably going to always be bit product focused in my answer to that question.

Adam Callinan (33:40)
Yeah.

I I think I think that's a great answer. Honestly, I mean, a big part of all of this and talking about it generally revolves around building that durability, like the durability in the business that isn't is going to be very, very hard to keep on the rails. When you hit that exponential point, because it's there, you know, it's not going to stay exponential forever. And generally, the things that happen that line up to that exponential point.

can be really dangerous for the long-term, ⁓ to your point. I interviewed somebody recently ⁓ out of Australia, Andy Falshaw, and we spent a lot of time talking about this exact concept of building something durable. He referred to it as taking the stairs instead of the elevator, like just doing it step-by-step over time, and it will take a lot longer and be a lot less ⁓ of that rocket ship, but that's not bad. And frankly, think it's good. I think I've always looked at

any business that I ever wanted to be in, that as long as you're focused on building value in as many different silos of the business as you can, someone will always want to buy it. That doesn't mean you want to sell it. That doesn't mean you're open to selling it. I don't think you have to really define ⁓ my intended outcome thing. But I think the way that you look at value...

Sara DeLuca (34:53)
Yeah.

Adam Callinan (35:03)
from the customer, is an incredibly important value point, being profitable as a value, that's a point of value, like intellectual property can be a really important point of value, it was for us, is a beautiful way to think about building a company that can withstand all these like crazy ups and downs.

Sara DeLuca (35:20)
Yeah, I love that analogy of taking the stairs instead of the elevator.

Adam Callinan (35:27)
Yeah, I did too. It struck me, which is why it stands out. So along that line of durability is the perfect segue. One of the other things that I really enjoy talking about with other operators are the things that you have done and or continue to do that help you and or the people around you to remain durable. Because even, you know, even if we're trying to do the slow and steady wins the race, are, you know, there it's still a roller coaster. There are still ups and downs.

So how have you grown to deal with that?

Sara DeLuca (36:00)
That's a great question because I think and I'm sure you experienced this when you're working in a smaller brand everybody is doing everything and everyone is pretty much you know, we're a scrappy team trying to accomplish a lot and ⁓ I think

For us, one thing that helps is that we are very mission-based. So pretty much everyone on the team is really dedicated to the mission of the brand, which makes some of those ups and downs or that daily grind.

not so bad. We stay very closely in front of the women who wear our products. So a lot of wear testing and conversations from design inception all the way through product development. And the women we work with are so incredibly inspiring. I mean, I think they are the main reason that I show up every day and I'm excited because they're just doing.

inspirational, aspirational things and it's really fun to talk to them and it's really fun to make product for them. so I think, yeah, it probably comes down to sort of believing in the mission and then getting to work on really cool stuff. Like for me, from a product standpoint, it's kind of a dream come true. And I think for a lot of the folks on the team, it's just, you know, it's stuff that we wouldn't otherwise get exposed to and ⁓

Yeah, it's fun is probably a big part of it.

Adam Callinan (37:37)
Yeah, I mean, having the centralized team component there and the mission driven focus is so important. Do you look at these things? I mean, you're in an entirely different space physically and professionally than when you were in New York. How did you deal with that in New York? is that, I mean, as you mentioned earlier, kind of why you left New York?

Sara DeLuca (37:57)
well, I learned so much for the brands that I worked for in New York. you know, just learning about like really paying attention to fabric as sort of the cornerstone of both the quality of the product you make, but also the aesthetic. ⁓ and I worked with some amazing designers who were like, I don't know, just taught me to think outside the box. But I guess the thing that this

that Dovetail does that nobody else did was we didn't try to sit in a room and imagine what she wants. We didn't try to imagine like, what's going to be the color of the season? know, like those things are all great. Don't get me wrong. And they were important for me to learn, but ⁓ to actually just ask the question of what do you need? And

have somebody answer it and then try to solve for that problem. It's such a different way of doing product development and it's yeah it was never able to do that in any other brand.

Adam Callinan (39:08)
need versus the want there's you know there's a lot trapped in there that's great

Amazing. Where do you want people to find you or to find Dovetail? We'll put links and everything in the show notes.

Sara DeLuca (39:25)
⁓ Our website dovetailworkwear.com is a great place to start our Instagram page. We're on all the social media venues, but Instagram is probably our most interactive and we have a great audience there. ⁓ Yeah, come check us out.

Adam Callinan (39:47)
Awesome. I really, really appreciate your time, Sarah. This is really, really fun learning about you and Dovetail. Keep up the good work. My wife will appreciate it.

Sara DeLuca (39:57)
Yeah, then definitely hook us up, please, Adam. That would be great. Alright, have a great day.

Adam Callinan (40:01)
All right, thank you.

You too.