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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Welcome to the System Speak podcast, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Be the least noisy if I wiggle.
Speaker 1:You are a wiggler.
Speaker 2:I am a wiggler. It's true.
Speaker 1:I am not because I hurt my foot.
Speaker 2:I know. You were just saying how when you're in bed, you don't need it wrapped because you sit still, and I thought, oh, I wouldn't be able to do that.
Speaker 1:It hurts so bad. Oh, sweetie. I hope it's not broken. Yeah. That's another story.
Speaker 1:That is not why we have gathered here today. First of all, you gathered a long way because you're here. I'm not in Oklahoma. You're here.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:How was that driving across the country with your boys?
Speaker 2:I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I was going to, actually. I'm not sure if they were just tired from moving so much stuff, but, we had a good time.
Speaker 1:It has been a whirlwind. We both moved. Yes. You're gonna take care of your parents.
Speaker 2:Yes. And two of the boys.
Speaker 1:And the girls and Alex will be here.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:But you guys drove a U Haul across the country
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:With stuff. I am already yawning, and I honestly think it's dissociation more than I'm tired because I slept last night because I was worn out from kids over the weekend. Yeah. What day did you get here?
Speaker 2:We got here Tuesday night last week, and it is now Monday.
Speaker 1:So you've been here almost a week? Yeah. And today, I hurt my foot. Oh
Speaker 2:my goodness.
Speaker 1:Let me just tell you the story of the foot. I was just going to get something from the garage. Nothing even dramatic happened. Like, there's no good story. I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1:There was a mat, like, what is it called? A doormat
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Outside in the garage. And I don't know if it was from the chaos of the kids or from moving or what happened, but it had slid a little bit to the side. And somehow, I stepped out from the hallway into the garage a tiny, tiny step. I know the step is there. I did not miss the step, but I somehow landed on the edge of the mat, And I was wearing what are those sandals called?
Speaker 2:Birks. Are they Birkenstocks? Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was wearing my Birks, and somehow that just hit right for me to fall. And something in my ankle area snapped.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the pain was so bad. And I fell, like, onto the car. So my arm also hurts, but not anywhere nearly as bad as my foot hurts. But I the pain was so bad, I hyperventilated. Like, I could not get my breath, and only screams were coming out of me.
Speaker 1:I have not felt that kind of pain in a very long time. So it's not pretty. It doesn't feel good. I can't walk on it. But my new job starts in two days, and so I won't have new insurance here locally for two more days.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna ride it out. I'm going to try and see if this is so bad. It's like the opposite of self care. But I don't know what to do. And so, like, what choice do we have?
Speaker 1:We don't have money. My benefits that I barely have Medicaid of are in Oklahoma. They're not here. And I allegedly get insurance in two days with my new job. So I'm just going to wait.
Speaker 1:I've kept it elevated and kept it iced. I canceled the rest of my afternoon and moved those people, which will make the rest of my week much harder. But also I couldn't breathe or, like, I couldn't even cry.
Speaker 2:It was bad.
Speaker 1:It was like I had fallen on my back or something.
Speaker 2:I totally had flashbacks to when you broke your back. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right? I love that you had flashbacks for me. That's, like, a whole new level of
Speaker 2:code. I support you in any way I can.
Speaker 1:But so, anyway, I'm just if it gets worse or still hurts this bad, then on Wednesday, when I get my benefits, I will go have it checked out. But for now, I'm just not moving. I was keeping it elevated. I kept it iced, and we'll see. We'll see what happens with the foot.
Speaker 1:But a sprain doesn't snap. Something is not right in there. So we'll see. Okay. So, anyway, the reason that story matters is because now I'm stuck in bed, which is really hard for me, and I don't stay down.
Speaker 2:And what does one do for fun when stuck in bed?
Speaker 1:They watch shiny, happy people. So I am so distressed by being stuck in bed that I'm like, okay. Fine. What's on the to do list I can accomplish from bed? And it is watching which channel is it on?
Speaker 2:It's on, Amazon Prime Video.
Speaker 1:The documentary about IBLP. Here's the thing. I am so triggered just by principles that I keep saying IBLF. I've been saying IBLF for a year because, also, they did change the name later as like, change it to an f to foundation or something like that as if that would cover up everything else. They didn't change any other words.
Speaker 1:But because of that, I keep saying IVLF. But, really, it was originally ILBP. IBLP, Institute of Basic Life Principles.
Speaker 2:Hell, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's so super triggering, but, basically, it's the religious trauma of my childhood. I grew up in Northwest Arkansas where the Duggars are. I did not know the Duggars. I am not speaking about the Duggars, but the same churches, Southern Baptist, nondenominational, evangelical
Speaker 2:Fundamental.
Speaker 1:Fundamentalists. That is the religious childhood. I mean, religious trauma of my childhood. And finally, I have watched this documentary, and it was brutal.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. It was terrible for me too. And I didn't and I'm not coming with the same trauma. Like, just as a person observing from the outside, it was terrible.
Speaker 1:What did you observe? Share with me what you noticed from an outside perspective.
Speaker 2:Do you mean just what did I see in it, or how did I feel it affected me? Or
Speaker 1:Well, let's do the other one first. How would you give a summary? Obviously, there's a trigger warning to this for people with religious trauma and some abuse details, although we're not going to trauma dump on this. The documentary basically did reference all kinds of different layers of different kinds of traumas, so we will be referencing that. But just for people who have not seen it or maybe thinking about seeing it, how would you sum it up generally?
Speaker 1:I don't know that I can.
Speaker 2:So there was a man whose name was
Speaker 1:Bill Gothard.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Who started an organization, the Institute for Basic Life Principles, in which, this is my impression of it. He basically franchised a cult.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting summary. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, he he sent it out through different churches, Baptist churches, fundamentalist churches, nondenominational churches, where it was very appealing to people who were looking for a return to what they felt like was old fashioned values, traditional homes, families. But what he was putting out was basically instructions for abusive family structures. And what he was taking in was lots of money and lots of victims for himself and his underlings. And so the documentary, interviews, people from the Duggar family is sort of, the probably the most public face of people who follow the gothard teachings, but also a lot of survivors who escaped this sort of organization or who grew up and and had to be deprogrammed, basically, and how they've recovered and what their perspective is on it now and what's going on with it now because it's not entirely gone. It's still
Speaker 1:The Duggars are now the leaders of it, it said.
Speaker 2:The after Gothard was accused of of lots of sexual impropriety, he was removed, and there is sort of a power vacuum and that the Duggars are sort of the de facto leaders of the organization at the moment. It's what it I I feel like they didn't necessarily say that explicitly, but implied it very strongly.
Speaker 1:For me, again, without getting into too much detail, the ways this impacted me was that it was the culture I grew up with as a child, including the discipline classes that my parents took and how to beat your children, which included how to avoid being caught by the police, how to make connections with local authorities, and things not just how to beat your child, but literally how to beat your child until they stop crying. Did you hear that? Yes. And
Speaker 2:Including also, like, how to beat your spouse until they stop crying. Like, do it terrible.
Speaker 1:It is a lifeline thing. This does not stop at adulthood. And the only other research I have seen on this is Warwick Middleton in Australia talking about incest that continues into adulthood. They have done some research on that there. But I have not, other than this, heard anyone talk about this.
Speaker 1:That, like, this is why I had to run away. Mhmm. This is why I was afraid, not just for coming out to my family in college or trying to choose a faith tradition as an adult or getting married to you. Like, why all of these layers are so complicated. It also impacts me because the school I went to for high school that sent me to the college, both that school and the college were part of this.
Speaker 1:This.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So there's that. So that's just my context a little bit without getting into things yet. What were your thoughts and feelings?
Speaker 2:I mean, in general, of course, I was horrified and, like, horrified to learn about such awful, truly evil, unthinkable things happening so much and so pervasively and and all of that. Of course, like, it's it's a really, really painful watch. I felt it affected me personally because there are aspects of what they talked about or what this foundation or whatever it is talk taught to people that I found myself thinking, are these are these things that came into play in our early marriage? And I had no idea. So when when we were first married, there was primarily one individual from your system that I was dealing with largely, not entirely.
Speaker 2:And I would not be surprised if that if that person was a good, obedient follower of the things she had been taught.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Very submissive and gentle, soft spoken.
Speaker 1:So the opposite of now. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2:I don't have all of you. I don't have any problem with I would much rather have you speak your mind than be a little whisper all the time.
Speaker 1:But DID aside, like, I still feel guilty about that. Like, I still think even, like, all of the stuff from the last year, I would not have caused such a mess for everybody if only I had stayed that way. This is because I stopped being that way, which is not true. And this week has actually helped me see that of, like, oh, no. There are other reasons that I left.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there were needs of the children that we needed to separate them a little bit. And things that don't even actually have anything to do with me, even if publicly you and I kinda take the hit for some things just to protect the kids. It's not people's business what's going on with the kids. Right? But, I mean, other than stories they choose to share themselves.
Speaker 1:And so some of it really doesn't have anything to do with us even though also we are adults who are like, okay. What do we do with our lives now? And and all of that. But I still even with all of those layers, I'm like, oh, this is because I cannot submit, and our life is gonna stay hard because god is trying to break me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Those were, like, even going back to us getting married, for example, just the act of getting married. Like, was that person that I proposed to, was saying no ever an option?
Speaker 1:No. This is this is one of the tragedies
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because
Speaker 1:you have been very kind to me. I have no ill intent for you. And, also, with that trauma and getting in touch with that trauma in therapy, it brings up that that because of that dynamic and because of my past, I could not decline. And it reenacted through no one's direct intention and no malicious effort, it reenacted through my boss telling me about you even though that was purely coincidence, and he is also a very kind and very funny man. There's still that in two different ways that mirror each other.
Speaker 1:I could not say no. Even though it is also true, you are wonderful and kind and have always been safe, and I have nothing bad to say about you in that way. Does that make sense? Like, it's it it is so ironic to me because when you write your musicals, one of your favorite styles to write is what you call beautiful tragedy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Beautiful sadness when it's so glorious, and it also breaks your heart at the same time.
Speaker 1:And that is our beginning a little bit. Yeah. And our life together with all the trauma drama we've endured. There's layers of that to us, and it's hard and it's heartbreaking even when also we're okay.
Speaker 2:It like speaking as a person who did not have the religious abuse that you had, I feel violated by having had an understanding of the relationship we had and now seeing that from the other side, I was taking part in some sort of horror movie. That's a bit of an exaggeration, but it's but it's also not.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You were
Speaker 2:Like, we had two entirely different scripts that just happened to fit together. Like, for example, in the documentary, they talk about we're not gonna kiss until we get married. We didn't really kiss till we got married. I had never really had other girlfriends before you. Not because I didn't believe in having girlfriends, but just because that's just not who I am.
Speaker 2:I'm not, like, driven by that need.
Speaker 1:Even though you had tried to date Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, I dated a lot.
Speaker 1:Others said, developmentally, you need to date. And you wanted to get married, and you knew dating was part of that process, but had not had a girlfriend girlfriend.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The the one who
Speaker 1:tried to mack on you.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness. Yes. That was terrible. But it feels like somehow that part of me that I that I offer to you just as who I am fit in to a piece that it that it wasn't actually supposed to be. Or like our children, we have a larger than ordinary number of children.
Speaker 2:We certainly fostered a larger than ordinary number of children. I would even say that on the whole, our children are surprisingly well behaved if you look at them from a distance.
Speaker 1:Until they're not. Oh, we were practicing not saying that. Just letting them be themselves.
Speaker 2:But, like, in the in the documentary, they talked about seeing children in these large families and saying that they were docile because they'd had their wills broken. Our children Definitely not. Are definitely not docile. Their wills are not broken. So in some ways, it looks like we have done the Quiverfull family.
Speaker 1:Oh, that verse and those words almost made me throw up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Almost. And looking back on that, I see that. I love our children.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I love our children, and I would do whatever I could for them. And I understand we fostered and that these were the children who could not go home. And we were all doing our best and that they are doing their best. And I love our family. And this week in particular has been super fun.
Speaker 1:Several have commented. This is the best week our family's ever had. And I think it's because of all the growth that we've had. Yeah. And not just them because they're older and we've got five teenagers now, but because we all have worked so hard over the last year to get healthier as individuals.
Speaker 1:So when we came back together, we were in such a better place even though other things were still hard or even though hard things still happen, like my foot. I wasn't even in a hurry or anything. Like, stuff just happens. But in this context, that's not stuff just happens. God is punishing me.
Speaker 1:That's when we go back to Dante.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. They talked a lot about that feeling that that if you do anything out of place, then you will be punished. God is mad at you already, and it's just gonna send you down to hell.
Speaker 1:So did you understand that part of me any differently after watching this?
Speaker 2:I mean, we've talked about it a lot, so it wasn't a surprise. But it but seeing how pervasive it was, like, how immersed this whole culture was in that idea of don't you dare step out of line, or you will be punished physically and eternally, and and it's all your fault. Like, that was it was just so hard to watch.
Speaker 1:I think it is part of why, especially the last year, I have had to go, quote, quote, out of line. I'm saying quote, quote with the air
Speaker 2:quotes because
Speaker 1:that's what the children are into right now. But I had to go out of line to heal. Yeah. Even though throughout the deconstruction of my faith and my religious trauma, I continue to have my own personal experiences and evidences of what my faith means to me, and I maintain that. But I maintain that from within, not something put upon me by others externally.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think one thing that was hard for me in watching this well, lots of things are hard.
Speaker 2:A lot of things.
Speaker 1:It was very, very hard to watch. But I think one thing that was especially hard going back to the discipline classes. Like, my mother has always said that. My mother talked to you about that. I don't know what just happened with my voice.
Speaker 1:My mother talked to you about it before she died at one of the times she just dropped these horror bombs of trauma at family dinners or something in the brief time that you knew her. Yeah. But it still felt like a secret somehow. Like, that's not a thing. Churches don't have classes on how to beat your children.
Speaker 1:That's just a thing. But to watch the video clips of it
Speaker 2:Good footage of it.
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes. That was just surreal in a way I still don't have words for, and it's going to take a lot of time in therapy. I also wanna emphasize not just the beatings and how severe they were and how specific they were and how long they could last. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But also how once it was finally done, that the forced interaction after, there was not an increase of love. It was not a repairing the relationship. It was that you had to display devotion. And if your hug was not big enough or your appreciation for the beating was not enough, then it started over.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was in those moments that so many times where that physical abuse turned into sexual abuse.
Speaker 2:Well, they talked about that with the married couple too, that after beating your spouse, then you reconcile possibly through sex. And, like, what an awful, awful like, even just the the sort of the main gothic guy in front of a lecture was was doing sort of a symbolic demonstration of, he said, how to beat and bless your child at the same time and brought up a child to sort of pantomime spanking the child while also saying, you're a good boy. I love you. You're a good boy. And I thought, what an awful, awful thing to combine, like, those praise and self esteem with the feelings of danger and shame and pain so that even feeling good about yourself doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's a total corruption of of any positive feeling.
Speaker 1:This is something that has actually come up in therapy with my new therapist that I'm going to have to talk to her about. And I haven't yet, not because I can't. I just literally have not had the chance because what happened the first time it happened, I thought it was like, oh, it's a fluke. It's just weird she's saying that. The second time, I thought, oh, maybe it's because of the podcast or because she saw a painting or because she read something.
Speaker 1:And so I just can dismiss it, like deflect it, dissociate it. But this time, I was able to hold on to it throughout the week enough that, like, when I see her tomorrow, I need to have a conversation where she emphasizes when I do things well, or she will say, like, oh, you're incredible. Like, it's an amazing thing that you did this. And I know she's in part. She's not saying it at inauthentic times.
Speaker 1:Like, it does not feel like a trigger for grooming or something, for example. It is authentic and appropriate in the moment. But for me, my brain still reads it as danger, not in a grooming false way, but in a, okay. Punishment is coming. She's going to find out I'm not, and then I'm going to get it.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna have to talk to her about that. Not because she's doing anything wrong, but because she doesn't know how my brain is interpreting it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's the programming.
Speaker 1:You know what? She called it programming. And I was like, woah. We need to just pause that. She we were talking about religious trauma, and she was asking me a few very gentle questions about that, which I passed some of them.
Speaker 1:Like, I can say pass, but I referenced something. And she said, oh, I am familiar with that programming. We can come back to that when you're ready. And I was like like, I almost couldn't respond to anything else that day because that was spinning in my head. She just like, this is my childhood that we're referencing as programming.
Speaker 1:Accurately so. Yeah. But that hurts. Like, I can only talk about it right now with you because I'm still in shock partly for my foot and partly for what we just watched. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I like that you said violated because I think that is a piece of grief that I still wrestle with of I have no reason to unchoose you and also to grieve that my mind was not fully capable of actually consenting. Like, that doesn't get taken away even though you've been lovely. Like, it has anything to do with about you. And so it's like one more way that trauma just corrupts and violates and invades every area of my life even now, even as I try so hard to heal. Not that healing is over or that that changes things.
Speaker 1:Just that, like, it's everywhere, like, pervasive, like you said, and it's so violating. I'm really glad that you used that word. Yeah. What else do you remember from it or that came up for you watching it?
Speaker 2:I mean, for one thing, it's it's hard to see something that feels like a corruption of it's now after watching it, I feel uncomfortable even saying it. Like, it feels a corruption like a corruption of things that I do believe in, like a shadow that's so close and so hideous that it casts shade on the actual thing. Right? So, for example, in my faith tradition, we do talk about the husband being a priesthood holder of priesthood power who presides in the home. Very easily to jump from there to the man has control in the home.
Speaker 2:The man has power in the home. But we also talk about the husband and wife sharing the power that they are coequal, that they are help meets. But also, when I look at how Jesus interacted with his apostles, for example, that he used his power in service and in kindness. And I only want to use my role as your husband to serve you and to serve our kids. I don't need to be the boss of you.
Speaker 2:Like, why would I want to be the boss of you? I think you're amazing. That's why I wanted to marry you.
Speaker 1:The kids talked about that and spoke to that when we had that conversation about religious trauma last night
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And made that joke about me being the boss, except that I'm not. And what's funny what made us laugh so hard about that is because I have spent the last year resigning from that. I'm not even trying to be the boss. I'm not carrying people's stuff anymore. Like, we keep going back to the water park analogy where I took them to the water park and I was like, you are teenagers.
Speaker 1:If you don't want to carry it in the water park, leave it in the car. I am not carrying your stuff anymore. I have resigned from that a year ago. I don't carry other people's crap no more. I'm I'm resigned from that.
Speaker 1:And of course, they thought it was hilarious and so naughty that I said the c word.
Speaker 2:So edgy.
Speaker 1:Right? Right? But it was a metaphorical moment that was also literal. And so they're, like, learning of, like, okay. So mama's standing back.
Speaker 1:We're growing up. What is this gonna look like? And trying out who they wanna be. But there's been so much healing coming from that, and that's why we had such a good week. I think what made it hard for me to like, took me so long to do that, aside from that they were little and did need more help originally, and came to us with so much of their own trauma.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. They needed additional structure and support in the beginning. Right? Plus all the disabilities, all the things. So, yes, there was a need for it.
Speaker 1:It for me, though, it was never about controlling them or wanting control. But those same dynamics paralleled because of the fears from this stuff, from the shiny happy people stuff, from the IBLP stuff that losing any kind of control or their bad behavior, not just reflecting on us of, like, oh, I'm so embarrassed that my kid did that. Not like that. But, like, I am in danger because of what you did.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Or I am like, those kinds of feelings, or I am going to be in trouble because this and this and this. So it wasn't that I was trying ever trying to be controlling of anyone. It was that I literally felt my safety resided in being responsible to prevent danger by preventing problems.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's part of what, like, Em struggled with. Right? Is that she was responsible for eight people's regulation so that no one would get hurt. Like, it literally felt like all of our lives depended on it.
Speaker 2:And it was so exhausting for her.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. And so it is taking taking learning to heal that to be able to let go enough that we are not overwhelmed and that the children have the freedom to be I feel like we were always wanting them to be their own people, but now they have the freedom to make their own mistakes and the freedom to be responsible for themselves in a way they don't it was good timing in a way that they don't need us to anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think you and I are both have made progress in allowing them to choose things not just like right or wrong, but to do things differently than we would prefer to have them done and to be comfortable with sometimes the discomfort of that?
Speaker 1:You know what came to my mind when you said that? It's just this week when we had hamburgers for Mary's birthday. And I was like, there's such chaos when everybody comes to get, like, all the condiments at once. Like, there's only so many bottles of ketchup and mustard you can put out on the counter. And so I was calling them up in pairs, and Kyrie and Barrett were at the counter.
Speaker 1:I was finishing the burgers, but Kirier and Barrett were at the counter doing their mustard and mayonnaise or whatever they were putting on their buns. Right? I had the plates already, but you yourself can come dress your burger how you want it. Right? So, again, we're getting there.
Speaker 1:We're making progress. And they're growing up enough. They can do that. Except that they put on so much, and it was making a mess, and it was spilling everywhere. And it was literally gross me out.
Speaker 1:Things like mayonnaise are kinda triggering to me anyway. And so, like, it was just like, it was just so horrifying to me. And it was just and so finally, I was like, okay. K. K.
Speaker 1:K. Like, and I'm like, holding his bread and trying to spread it with my eyes closed and share the extra. And I cut them off too soon because we reached the climax of this is not going to end well, and I don't have any room left to help when it doesn't end well. But then it was so sad because we picked up his piece of bread and it broke in half, and I was like, of course. There's nothing I can do about it.
Speaker 1:But he looked at me and I looked at him and it was like, we're just gonna both admit this isn't happening. Not in an unhealthy way, but in a we're just gonna mutually agree to let this one go. You're not in trouble with me. I'm not in trouble with you, and we're good. Like like, I didn't mean it in a unhealthy way, but it was kind of funny because in that moment, we were both learning the same lesson.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's easier to talk about those things than to talk about the content of what we just saw.
Speaker 2:Of course. I am I am glad that you broke away from all of that, that you were able to strike out on your own even though it was such a brutally difficult road that you had to travel by yourself and and all of the the helpers you should have had along your way who were also betrayers, like, in the, you know, the archetypal journey, you should have had the the wise man to support you along the way at different points, and they were all secretly the bad guy. But you never stopped. You you are amazing in your tenacity and and your desire to continue moving forward out into the the light. I really admire that in you.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it feels like I'm still there, though. Like, that I can't ever get to the end of the tunnel, that I just keep walking through the darkness, and I'm trying and trying and trying. But the light seems so far away. And I don't want it to come at me. Right?
Speaker 1:Like, that's always the joke. But other times, I feel like I've made progress. Like, everybody loves fireworks. They're beautiful. It's fourth of July tomorrow, and it's going to just be super fun to see.
Speaker 1:And, also, those sounds are really triggering to me after deployments. And sometimes churches like that, like, they're really beautiful things oh, my tummy.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:They're really beautiful things about my faith and my faith expression that I love. And, also, every encounter with religion or with faith is also a trigger.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And literally feels like my life is in danger. And so it is really hard for me. It is really hard for me. And I mean that as a transparency and vulnerability about myself, not a complaint.
Speaker 2:But that's what that's what trauma is. Right? It's that awful, painful memory time spilling into the present because of a trigger of some kind and feeling like memory time is still happening, that those that danger is still happening. So it makes sense that that's that's still the struggle. That's still what you're working on.
Speaker 1:It's more beautiful tragedy, I think. That something so good could be used for so much bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether you're talking about god or whether you're talking about parents. Or marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I appreciate I know this isn't about the show, but I cannot say while we're talking about it that I appreciate your patience the last year of trying to understand of not taking it personally, of giving me space to find safety and healing in the shapes that it needed to come for me and letting that be, whether that was taking a time out to heal from the pandemic and taking the job here, whether that was having five of the kids while I had Alex Mhmm. Whether that was not shaming me for getting my piercing back, whether that was our conversations about coffee and alcohol or or gayness, playing the music game with Jules yesterday.
Speaker 2:That was awesome.
Speaker 1:Right? It was so fun. The kids loved it.
Speaker 2:They were great.
Speaker 1:She left it here. Did you see? Mhmm. She's so kind. It has just been a lot, and that is an example of safety that I did not have in the past and examples and experiences of letting me practice choosing in a way that I couldn't before.
Speaker 1:And it's hard to know, especially from a thousand miles away, what that's like on your end. But you've been a witness to so many things from my mother, my brother, my family dynamics to watching this with me now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's something that helps hold that for me. Maybe that's maybe that's part of what therapy ends up being for, but something about holding that in a way that's contained enough to be safe enough to look at enough. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:I think
Speaker 1:so. What else did you think about that? Were you aware that it was so widespread and that it had that goal to infiltrate government and that that generation is now in process of really getting so many different jobs as
Speaker 2:Political leaders.
Speaker 1:Political leaders.
Speaker 2:It was interesting as as we were watching it, there were several times that I turned back to you, and I was like, I remember friends talking about this, or I wonder if this is what was going on with this friend's family or, different aspects of that. It was weird to to see evidence of it closer to home than I would have realized. So that was one thing that really struck me.
Speaker 1:It was very big here. It is still very big. Well, not here here. In Oklahoma and Arkansas. In in Oklahoma, we live right by the border of Arkansas.
Speaker 1:And in that area, it's huge. It's huge up into Missouri. Yeah. And, it absolutely is widespread. And because your family did not go to those churches, you would not have known of it.
Speaker 1:But to hear those bizarre kinds of comments and just file them away
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then see the context of it now and realize that you it was really all around you in lots of ways, even some of your teachers, you said.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just to recognize, oh, that explains a lot.
Speaker 2:It does. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It makes me think of your story about the teacher that shamed you.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting. I'm not connected to that. Yeah. That's interesting. What the first thing that came to my mind was that I knew that she was getting a divorce.
Speaker 2:I mean, I know now that she's getting a she was getting a divorce at that time and how much shame she must have been feeling if that was the environment that she was living in. Like, how she must have already been in such an emotional state to then, like, resort to taking it out on a child. I mean, I wasn't her personal child. She didn't hit me or anything. But I feel so much compassion and and heartache for this teacher that sort of publicly shamed me in front of a couple different classes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It makes me think about what wonder what she must have been going through.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why my mother had to leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That is that's what started well, we moved a couple times in Arkansas, but it's why we left Arkansas and moved to Iowa before I went to middle school. The whole reason we left is because she literally could not get divorced in Arkansas because of all this stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:She had to move that far away. I mean, two states north, but she had to move that far away just to be able to divorce my father. Wow.
Speaker 2:I don't think I knew that this particular organization was specifically trying to create a a generation of political influencers, but it doesn't surprise me. And having learned more about this organization, I can certainly see a lot of echoes in some things that I've seen in politics.
Speaker 1:They Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:They they mentioned, like, one congressperson specifically, who is someone who I had been aware of during his time in in congress and who I found incredibly distressing. In in particular, I was well, in a number of ways. But one way was that I was really disturbed by his expression of what it meant to be a man, which seems like a weird thing for a congressperson to be talking about anyway. But it was so reductive and so shallow, and I just felt sad for him and so scared for the people that he was trying to influence of, it was yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's interesting because we're coming up on a political season again. Right? Like, elections are coming at us like a tsunami. And not that we have to talk about politics on this, except also we can't not. That is like another Judith Herman thing from the trauma and recovery book that healing and movements for healing have to happen in a political context.
Speaker 1:You can't ignore that. And it's hard. Like, our church issued that statement recently that straight party voting is not actually a democratic thing.
Speaker 2:A threat to democracy.
Speaker 1:A threat to democracy. And you have to be very careful because there are lots of things that we really are in favor of. Like, we love our family. Yeah. We want children to be able to be born.
Speaker 1:We want, like, all these different things. And, also, we think that humans should be treated with dignity and respect and cared for.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and that is part of safety and part of healing and that it's not okay to be a bully. And then it's
Speaker 2:And to make room for people who don't feel the same that I do. That we all have we all can live in our own way and don't have to, like, cut off someone else's rights just to make them more like me.
Speaker 1:Even in the context of religion or faith tradition, it is Satan's plan to force or compel a certain choice. You don't actually have choices unless you're free to make your choices. So it's not actually any kind of righteousness to say everyone has to be this way or everyone has to choose this because there's no choice in that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so it's a really sensitive thing, and and I know that politics get uncomfortable. Already talking about faith tradition is uncomfortable. Talking about memory time is uncomfortable. So I know that in lots of ways, this is a yucky episode, except also it is everything. Yeah.
Speaker 1:This is my life. This is what has impacted my life. It is what has driven my life unfold. I think it is the struggle, and I don't talk about this often, and I'm not sure I even should or that I will leave it in. But I think it's also aside from my personal issues or that what my brother has concerns about my personal issues.
Speaker 1:Aside from that, I think this is the piece that that part of the family does not understand is not even that our parents were always these dark, dark monsters that were malicious and evil people, but that they were going to where they thought were good places like church and being taught to do horrific things that absolutely impacted our experience of childhood and development and growing up. And so it makes sense that I have issues. Yeah. That he has had issues
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because we went through this.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about what you said. I don't remember the name of the person you were quoting about how all healing has to be political on some level. What was it that you said?
Speaker 1:Judith Herman.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about how politics itself is just a discussion of, like, the balance of power and power in itself as a relationship. And if you don't talk about politics, if you don't talk about the balance of power, then it leaves the advantage to whoever is already in power. So if there is already an advantage to people in power abusing that power and abusing the people they are over, if there's no discussion of that balance of power, then you can never change it.
Speaker 1:Which is part of what this perversion, if I can say that, a faith
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Tries to do.
Speaker 2:Because there's no questioning it.
Speaker 1:There's no questioning authority.
Speaker 2:That's something that I do appreciate in our own faith tradition, that I know people who are members of our church who absolutely have questions about things and things they don't agree with or things they don't understand, and are not forced to be homogeneous with everyone else, that, that we're all on our own individual spiritual journey through life. Right?
Speaker 1:But even act even asking questions is an act of faith.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it's also the weakness when people confuse faith with culture Mhmm. Which is more obvious out west when there's such a dense population of the church.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because then that's a nightmare and a whole different like, that there's not much difference between that Stepford land and the Stepford land we just watched on TV, right, which is not the same as what the faith actually is. But when when any kind of goodness, whether it is faith or parenting or caring or marriage or relationships, anytime what love is gets perverted into power, that's not love anymore. No. That's not faith anymore. And that's what is hard for me when we talk about the perversion of love is not who you are loving, but how you are loving.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And a misuse of power is always abuse.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Always. And the exploitation that came with that culture, whether it was the physical labor from the children Mhmm. Or the girls never being paid for the Duggar show
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Even into adulthood and signing contracts that they didn't know they were signing that they thought had to do with their wedding. I think it's ultimately ultimately, this is why I left. And I don't mean running away at 17. When I ran away at 17, it was because she moved that man in, and I knew he was going to rape me and possibly kill us all. And I do not say that lightly.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Not joking, not minimizing, just full on. And I think that my brother would agree with me with that. He also left. I don't wanna talk about him anymore because that will just defend everybody and not help anything. But I think that that is something we're in agreement on, that that's how bad that situation was.
Speaker 1:But, ultimately, I left my family, as in didn't see them for a decade, because of this piece where there was no way to win.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I could not be me. The only way to stay was to break me, And I could not be more broken and survive. Mhmm. I had to leave. I left to save my life initially, physically from more perpetrators and then ultimately to save my life for myself.
Speaker 2:Yes. From what I could see, the only way to save yourself within that context is to become one of those types that they, the abusive man or the the mousy, what's it called when enabler. Like, to either become the abusive man or the mousy enabler. And it's just I'm so glad that you escaped.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the ultimate fawning. Right? If I get good enough at being good enough according to what they say is good enough, then they'll stop. It's the ultimate, I'm going to beat you until you stop crying. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And perpetuating the lies, perpetuating the the lie inherent in the entire system.
Speaker 1:It makes me think too of this episode when we had Kathleen Adams on the podcast, and she talked about when things are so bad developmentally and so pervasive in the family system that no one will listen, that kids start talking in metaphors and then get blamed for lying because there's no way else for them people to hear them or to see how bad things are. And so things escalate to that point trying to get attention, not attention, oh, I'm so special, please pay attention to me. But, oh, I am a child being harmed, please pay attention to me. I I have held on a lot this week through different experiences in therapy and reading the religious trauma book. I have held on a lot this week to a quote from one of the speakers, Christine Forner, at the ISSTD conference this year.
Speaker 1:She said, it is impossible to be a bad child. Anything else from that exciting viewing material?
Speaker 2:Get yourself some popcorn and a big box of tissues.
Speaker 1:That was brutal. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was really hard to watch.
Speaker 1:Well, welcome to the North.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:So nice to have you visit.
Speaker 2:Charmed, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Enjoy going back to that territory. Woo hoo. You'll see all the neighbors differently now.
Speaker 2:Golly.
Speaker 1:What is that gonna be like for you going back? And when you get there, you're going to the parents' house instead of our house.
Speaker 2:Mostly, I'm worried about trying to fit six children into my parents' house, and trying to fit all the stuff I moved over to my parents' house, into my parents' house. I I'm okay with moving into my parents other than the fact that I just miss being with you. But I have a good relationship with my parents. It's hard watching them age and become more cantankerous as they age sometimes. But I love them, and we love each other.
Speaker 2:And and it it doesn't bother me other than just missing having more elbow room and missing some of the independence that comes with not living with your parents, and missing you.
Speaker 1:Is that trauma for you or a difficult season for you? And is there a difference?
Speaker 2:It doesn't feel like trauma for me. Do you mean, like, fresh trauma, or is it opening old trauma? Or
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:All
Speaker 1:of the above.
Speaker 2:I'm not aware of it opening any old trauma, but I suppose that by being there over time, I may be able to work with my own therapist on things that just sort of bubble up at a slower rate. I know that I do have my own level of trauma, some of which comes from when I was younger and with my family, but but it was not an abusive family. I don't have any of that kind of thing going on. So I'm sure it will give me opportunities to work on my own stuff, but it doesn't feel like I don't expect it to be a new trauma. It'll be interesting.
Speaker 2:See what happens. Having six kids there for a week may be a new trauma. We'll see.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. I'm worried too just about the money and pragmatics of getting them back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I still don't have answers, and you're about to leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The
Speaker 1:hallway is full of your packed food.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was explaining to Jules. I sent her a picture of it, and she's like, what is that? And I said, well, seven people, three meals, plus you're driving. So to keep tummies settled, there's a morning snack and an afternoon snack. That's five bags for seven people.
Speaker 1:So it's 35 bags of food a day. That is my life for a decade.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So four days of that. What is that? What's four times 35? Kate Kate would know the answer like that. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:So it will be epic.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you have to take the girls back for their well child, and Kiri is gonna have a minor surgery.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so the parenting continues.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh,
Speaker 1:oh, sorry. Back to the show. That moment of the little toddler who could barely talk standing in front of the toilet saying instant obedience
Speaker 2:Yeah. With a smack of her hand.
Speaker 1:Yes. With a smack of her hand.
Speaker 2:What? Yeah. Stuff of nightmares. I feel so bad for that child. Did you wanna talk about how they have not talked about the possible layers of abuse in the Duggar family, or is that for another time?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I don't wanna speculate about specific people, and they're not my patients and all of that. But the question is, obviously, it's public knowledge now because of the court case
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That the oldest son has been convicted of molesting his sisters and that oh, no. No. False of
Speaker 2:Child pornography.
Speaker 1:Child pornography. And with that came up reported charges of allegedly molesting his sisters. And the point is he he, as a 12 year old, doesn't start doing that without
Speaker 2:Having been taught.
Speaker 1:Having been taught or exposed to that in some way. So what happened to him? And, like, there's so many more questions.
Speaker 2:And has it happened to any of the other boys?
Speaker 1:Right. And that that's just continuing to be passed on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And kind of like we've talked about the the difficult layer of me not being able to consent to get married. There is also that his wife does not actually have capacity to leave.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, they were talking about people saying, why don't you leave? Why don't you leave? And they walked through why literally, she cannot consent to that. She doesn't have capacity. She can I mean, I hope that comes for her in some way, and I don't know her at all or that story?
Speaker 1:I don't mean to judge that. I just mean in those relational dynamics, there are so many layers to why people don't leave
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And why leaving is so so hard. And it's there's not even beautiful tragedy in that. That's just tragedy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's tragic. And it's hard. I think part of the layer of beautiful tragedy, like, with us and our story, this is, like, I don't know how things unfold. I don't know how things turn out. But I know that it is so tragic that, like, you talked about it being a violation of an experience that for you was just very pure and good and unfolding.
Speaker 1:And for me, there was so much good and safety in it. And, also, that we could be both of us could be this violated into our adult lives a decade into a marriage when you and I have done everything right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:This isn't a story of where somebody did something terrible and destroyed a marriage or where somebody did something terrible and didn't, like, an arranged marriage or four I mean, I understand that, like, it kinda falls into that continuum a little bit just by consent or the boss or whatever. But, like, it's so tragic. There's so like, we need a good song. Can you write us a song? How do you do that?
Speaker 1:I know you don't write autobiographical musicals. But do you see what I mean? Like, the layers of it, the layers of impact, which is why I wanted to talk to the children because the book I was reading talked about that, how it's like like, there's this epicenter of the original trauma when we're young or when we're little. But then how that like, throwing a stone into a lake, the ripples throughout time even when we're doing everything right, and it's so frustrating and exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. I'm sorry that this has impacted you in a hundred ways.
Speaker 2:But that's marriage, though. If your life didn't impact me in a hundred ways, I'm not sure we would really be married.
Speaker 1:What else? Anything else?
Speaker 2:I hope that I impact you in positive ways and that I am helping you.
Speaker 1:You tell me all the worst jokes.
Speaker 2:It's true.
Speaker 1:And you're teaching the children to tell me all the worst jokes. What did you think of our epic conversation last night with the kids? About families?
Speaker 2:I thought it went well. I was I was expecting to have more, to have more darkness or more grit or something to it, but it was all very positive. The kids were like, yeah. Things are great. Bakers.
Speaker 2:No. I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Well, and it wasn't because they did bring up some things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Also, they covered it was so hard to keep them on topic. Yes. I did skip some. Like, that was not editing. I was just like, okay.
Speaker 1:We already talked about these three and what you said. And so we can circle back to it and keep having conversations. But I think in the original conversation, it was, like, two hours and twenty minutes. So I did edit after that as well just because there was so much sharing. But they there wasn't I thought there was more I don't know.
Speaker 1:I don't I feel like because they did bring up some valid things that it was authentic on their part Mhmm. But also just by the default of them being our children, which is part of being healthy. Right? Recognizing that just by the default of being our children, there's some fawning by default.
Speaker 2:Sure. Of course.
Speaker 1:And so I like that they brought up some things. And, also, it really helped me communicate to them. Hey. I'm aware of these things. I want to make sure we're watching out for them together.
Speaker 1:What do you need to feel safer? What do you need to be yourself? How can we help? Like, those kinds of things that we're having more as they get older, we're having more direct conversations about. Like, one of the things that we could talk about right now, why we have privacy away from the children, is that one of our children has come out to us as bisexual.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so what does supporting that particular child look like while that particular child I'm trying to be careful. Right? So I don't out anybody. But, what does that look like to them? What does that mean to them?
Speaker 1:Because it may not mean what I think it means or what it means to me and how to make sure that they know that they are loved and supported, period, not because of who they love or who they don't love or who they choose or not choose or where they're at in identity development. So that was a big deal. It was also a big deal because it wasn't the one we thought.
Speaker 2:That's true. I like, looking at the list of things that you're reading where it was comparing this is what happens in a healthy family and this is what happens in a dysfunctional family, it did not feel like we were trying to do any of the things in the dysfunctional thing. If you, like, look at intent or purpose or focus, like, it felt like in places where we were not perfect, it's because we're still learning and moving towards the other column, not because we are trying to do dysfunctional things. I would say that's pretty much across the board. Like, in places where, like, rigid rules, for example, Kids were younger.
Speaker 2:We had more rigid rules. We have been working on being more flexible and more accommodating of individual preferences and needs.
Speaker 1:As they get older Yeah. Naturally.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I feel like that's that's something that that we have made progress on as a family, both in setting the rules and in following the rules. When you look at, like, communication and a dysfunctional family trying to keep things secret or building, obedience based on shame and things like that, I don't think I don't think we do that. Or if we have done that, we have moved away from it in whatever level it it happens. I know I've certainly become much better at at parenting than I was able to do eight years ago.
Speaker 2:I'm I think I'm a better parent than I was one year ago or two years ago. Still have room to grow, still mess up and lose my temper sometimes. But then I go back and I apologize, and I admit that I was wrong. So, like, I feel like looking at that list of comparing the two kinds of families, I don't have any question about what kind of family we are. We are not a perfect family, but we are sure on the on the correct side of the line.
Speaker 2:We are trying so hard to be good. In some ways, I feel like we are trying to have the kind of family and live the kind of life that people in this fundamentalist organization are copying, are trying to imitate without actually the work or the understanding that goes into it?
Speaker 1:Two thoughts came to me in response to that. I was trying to do active listening, but I still got two thoughts that came up. I'm sorry. One is that it's interesting because my experience was straight to fear. I read the charts in the back of that chapter.
Speaker 1:Like, I got to the end of the chapter and saw those charts. I was like, oh my goodness. We're doing it all wrong. We have to fix this. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Because I'm I I'm gonna be a bad parent. And then, like, went right it loops so quickly
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right into all this shame and control stuff of I'm in danger because I'm so bad. Mhmm. And there's so much evidence that I'm so bad. Like, that is the hardest part, and I guess that goes back to the programming Yeah. Like, my therapist was talking about, which is way too difficult for me to address right now.
Speaker 1:But the second thing that came to my mind when you said that about them imitating without doing the work is I realized the whole thing is, like, market level, multi level
Speaker 2:Multi level marketing. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes. It's all a scheme.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It totally is.
Speaker 1:They're just selling. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It really is a a money making business.
Speaker 1:So it's no different than other kinds of child exploitation in which we still get abused so that other people can have money and pleasure. And why is that bringing these people pleasure? Like, how messed up is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that flashed me back to that mom talking about how she beat and beat and beat her 14 old, and he still was so out of control.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:14. Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's so bad.
Speaker 1:And that was reflecting badly on her, she said.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's where that shame and control cycles back in. The 14 old.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Had you heard of that blanket training before? No. No. I never heard of it. If you have not heard this, the blanket training aspect starts with babies to where you put a baby on a blanket and put something they want off the blanket.
Speaker 1:And every time they reach for it, you hit them. We did not do this to our children.
Speaker 2:No. We did not.
Speaker 1:It we didn't even have the children as babies except Kyrie who was in the hospital. But it was in the culture of what was done to me. Literally, when you reach for what you want, you get beat.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's how they intentionally even use the words. That's how we break their spirit.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That is part of why even now, it is so hard to just think it's okay to do what I want. Yes. Like, even moral issues aside, moral issues aside, just what is my need, what is my want, how would that even be a safe question if I know it's going to get me beat in my babyhood?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And those recordings from infancy are always there in our brains whether we remember them or not.
Speaker 1:I noticed that not the recordings, but learning to connect now. I noticed it at different times in our history because you were just kind. Mhmm. And with the children because sometimes we're happy. Right?
Speaker 1:But I have also noticed it with Jules because Jules has been so generous in meeting needs for our family or the children in different ways that we've had she and I have had and she's not here to speak for herself right now. But she and I have had conversations about, like, triggers and need meeting and what that means to her, what it means to me so that it's not trauma reenactment for either of us or so that it is safe for both of us. But it still, for me, sometimes feels like not I don't feel triggered by her in a again, not in a grooming way.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And I say that explicitly because there are some things where I have felt that. I don't mean with her. I mean, like, in now time where the memory time trigger is about grooming. Yeah. But this is a different layer that I didn't have words for until they showed those clips, and I saw it from the outside where, no, reaching for what I want literally gets me hurt.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And seeing that directly in the blanket training section and and them explaining that, like and that doesn't stop when you're not a baby anymore. Yeah. And how hard we have worked to make sure that our children don't experience that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:We are a big family with very limited resources, so there are lots of times that we have to say no. We can't just give you what you want. And, also, we will work very hard to make sure you have what you need and some of your wants. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 1:And to make sure that they experience that differently. I think sometimes when I think about neglect or deprivation, I just think about, oh, the needs weren't met. I think it's really hard for me to hold on to this piece that they depicted about how you are literally punished for the need.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Punished for wanting. And can I point out, while we're talking about this, not just punish for wanting, but literally offered what you want and then punished for
Speaker 2:it? Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's not like the baby was laying there. It was like, oh, I wish I had this toy. The way it's literally you bring what you want. It is then taken from you, and then you're punished if you try to get it back.
Speaker 2:Baby's first gaslighting.
Speaker 1:Oh, that makes me nauseous. Baby's first gaslighting. You're terrible. I shouldn't say you're terrible. Baby's first gaslighting.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. Like, the depth of that and the layers of that just make my brain hurt and make my stomach sick. Well, this was fun.
Speaker 2:Yay.
Speaker 1:I will talk about that in therapy for years, I'm sure. Programming. Oh my goodness. It hurts me, like, literally.
Speaker 2:You know where I have seen that specific thing of showing a baby something and then punishing it for approaching it is in the book Brave New World. That is how they condition the babies in Brave New World.
Speaker 1:What is Brave New World?
Speaker 2:The Aldous Huxley utopian novel or dystopian novel. Oh. So when they have babies that are going to be in a particular lower cast where they want them to focus on work and not on trying to pursue happiness, as babies, they put them on a blanket next to some roses. And then when they reach for the roses, they give them an electric shock. And it's this exact same thing.
Speaker 2:They're conditioning them not to seek those things.
Speaker 1:It's programming.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm gonna be sick.
Speaker 2:And if you just think programming is is a sophisticated collection of if then statements. So if desire, then no. Right? If seek desire, then danger. So, like, it's just a whole bunch of those stacked on top of each other in order to get a result of a behavior that is desired by whoever set up the conditions.
Speaker 1:That's a perversion of a covenant. Oh. I mean, I know that's faith tradition language, but the concept of a covenant, whether it's between us and god or between people. And I even hate using the word covenant because there's a lot of fundamentalist misuse of that word. Yes.
Speaker 1:But, ultimately, it's that we are both agreeing to do these good things, and this goodness comes out of it.
Speaker 2:If then. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is gross. No wonder. It is so hard and so triggering and so awful because it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I honestly don't know if I have enough time left in my life to get through all the therapy for this stuff. Like, I'm I'm in a season of starting over, not completely from the beginning, but I have a good therapist. I've been able to finally stay with them. And they're really helping, and I'm grateful. And I come to that experience with so many things I've already learned.
Speaker 1:Like, it's not really a starting over. But finally starting to work on all these things, And there's not enough time.
Speaker 2:I think that's universal, though. I don't think anyone ever completely overcomes all the trauma in their life. I don't think anybody ever completely overcomes the damage done to them by their own parents, well meaning or not. But what you can do is continue making progress, and what you can do is do your best not to pass on trauma to the next generation. And what you can do is seek the most joy that you can within the context of how far you are in your own healing.
Speaker 1:That's part of the death of hope. Right? That I don't get a redo of my childhood. I don't get the childhood I should have had. It's not just about, oh, my parents are dead, so they're never going to learn to be better parents.
Speaker 1:It's literally that I don't get my childhood back. My childhood was stolen from me, and it was and it's gone. I can reparent myself. I can develop healthy childlike things within myself and for myself and for my children, but the actual years of my childhood, I do not get back.
Speaker 2:But not just that. The adulthood you would have had without that trauma has also been taken from you. The adulthood that you would like to imagine that happens after trauma is healed is already gone. Right. Death of hope.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:That's gonna make me cry.
Speaker 2:But you are already good. You are already having an amazing adult life. When you say the death of hope, like, that's what it says to me is you're looking forward, that you can't be holding on to an expectation of a future in which you are free from trauma because that trauma is there. I didn't mean to make you cry.
Speaker 1:That's hard. That's just really hard. It is. Even if I know it's true, it's just hard to sentence. I thank you for telling me the truth.
Speaker 2:I can say that from the outside, this is not your experience. This is my experience. That I love you fully as you are. You don't need to heal completely. You don't my love of you is not based on your healing.
Speaker 2:It's just you yourself are worthy of love. You yourself are worthy of happiness. You don't have to pass some sort of imagined yardstick impossible expectation in order to eventually, hopefully, maybe someday qualify for accepting yourself. You are acceptable as you are.
Speaker 1:Thank you. That's all I was supposed to say. I know. Just thank you.
Speaker 2:I'm working on that in my own therapy too, believing that I'm acceptable as I am.
Speaker 1:Well, this was fun.
Speaker 2:If we have much more fun, we're just gonna start bawling.
Speaker 1:Oh, I can't cry anymore today. It hurts my foot.
Speaker 2:That sounds like you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Okay. Thanks for talking on podcast again.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeak.com. We'll see you there.